Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Shelby Oaks (2025) & Noroi: The Curse (2005)
0 Plays3 seconds ago
Doug and Tony get spooked as they delve into Chris Stuckmann's debut feature film Shelby Oaks, and then take a look back at cult favorite Japanese found footage movie Noroi. It wouldn't be These Guys Got Juice if it wasnt an overlong episode so get cracking now
Recommended
Transcript
Comparing Shelby Oaks to Other Films
00:00:18
Speaker
did you want to talk about first uh well we can do shelby oaks first just the get that shit out the way but if we if i i feel like i i didn't even intentionally come up with this period it kind of just say was like i want to talk about nora you know like that that's a cool movie and then i saw it we both saw shelby oaks but it's like actually there is ah little bit there's like there's there's some overlap not terms of quality for sure but in terms of like like one's a poor man's version of the other in some ways.
00:00:52
Speaker
It's kind of like, ah I think that you had made a tweet earlier today. It was about a different movie or something along. You said this to me as well, but it was like ah comparing a coughing baby to a hydrogen bomb, right? But you said dying baby in relation to Shelby Oaks.
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, like died at
Chris Stuckman's Evolution and Controversies
00:01:10
Speaker
childbirth. Yeah. Yeah, ah just to show real quick, ah these guys got juice. We're we're back. Guess who's back ha again?
00:01:19
Speaker
ju The juice is back. Tell a friend. Juice is Juice is back. Juice is back. Juice is back. Juice is back. Juice is back. not not ah like it's picturing chris stuckman doing this you know this is like his he's doing like a timothy chalamet like almost rapper kind of promotional tour for his movie but for chelsea oaks maybe he should have done that because i have like no fondness or connection to him going in but like i like those kind of like to like i love everything chalamets do regardless of how interested i am in
00:01:56
Speaker
whatever his ping pong movie is, Marty Supreme. Like, I mean, it'll probably be good. Like, it seems like that's the the good safety is making that. And then, uh, but Bob-Job just thrown straight. I haven't even seen Smashing Machine yet. Maybe they're, there they seem like they're, I think, I feel like it doesn't always cleanly delineate. Like when people try and they'd be like, this is the Coen brother. That's like the, boom this, the Joel was the good one all along. it was like, I think there's a synergy. i think it's like the two of them together is,
00:02:26
Speaker
what makes the whole uh but yeah back back to Stuckman it's like I I just really just have gleaned cultural osmosis of people who are are fans of it so like maybe you could give me better context he's know he's a YouTuber but like did he so he was like a review guy he did like YouTube reviews movies i'm I'm kind of surprised that you're not familiar with him, but just to kind of give a kind of summary of who he is or his persona at large.
00:02:56
Speaker
um He was like early 2010s. He started doing movie reviews, right? And he was like kind maybe like in his like teens, early 20s when he started. Yeah.
00:03:07
Speaker
And he's been doing them consistently ever since then, right? And the thing that's been interesting to watch over the years is the kind of public perception of him because he's largely been seen as kind of a dweeb for a long time on the internet, right? easy He's always wearing like crossover t-shirts where it's like Goku in the Nightmare on ah Before Christmas universe, right?
00:03:30
Speaker
Like he's a very tacky person. He's got like the LED lights behind him with all the Blu-rays. Whenever I think about like Chris Stuckman favorites, I think about movies like the nice guys, right? Like he's, he's very like broad, like, oh, Interstellar is the best movie. Blade Runner 2049 is the best movie.
00:03:49
Speaker
The thing is, is that he always seems like a nice guy, right? He's definitely gotten into like some weird scandals over the years, just from like movies he's chosen to associate with. And then there's also like the infamous Get Out review. I don't know if you know about that one.
00:04:04
Speaker
do you know about that one? I maybe I, okay, if you bring it up, I'll probably be like, yes, I know that review, but not as directly linked to him. Like if it's the get out review that I'm thinking about, I'm like, okay. That was, that was Stuckman.
00:04:18
Speaker
so So I'm like kind of paraphrasing, like i' I'm half remembering and you can go and watch and like say I'm absolutely wrong if ah in my summary of this. But the best of my recollection, but the thing ah with him is that he always tries to frame the subject that he's talking about, not as an expert, but as a fan, right? Like you'll always go like, now, as you guys know, I'm a big fan of Star Trek, you know, and then you'll talk about like all the series that he's watched, right?
00:04:43
Speaker
Then for Get Out, he goes, I've been around black people my whole life and they shows like a picture. of him hanging out with like a group of black people and it's like the one of those things you're just like that's the kind of person he is like when I think about Chris Duckman right he's like has no idea how he's coming across right I was gonna say like you he's doing that completely non-ironically like it's not like like yeah like that almost seems like someone doing it as a bin I'm like oh that's like something like the Trevor Moore would do in like a whitest kid you know sketch or something like but but no this is that that's like genuine and okay I'll put it to you another way. ah One time on Red Letter Media, Rich Evans called him like a jackass or something.
00:05:23
Speaker
And then like Chris Stuckman uploaded a vlog where he was crying. Like he's a very like, like he's one of those types. Right. But the thing is, is over the years, he's gotten better at knowing how to like manage his online presence. And you're right like, like you don't have to respond to everything.
00:05:39
Speaker
and have more confidence right the thing is like i'm bringing these things up because like in the grand scheme of youtubers right the thinking of all the scandals that they could have right he's certainly low on the totem pole and he's been somebody who like even if i don't agree with his takes you know he's he's like very normie but also like uh i can tell he's being earnest and right in terms of criticism i'm not the main thing is the earnestness yeah Yeah, do you know Lights Camera Jackson?
Crowdfunding and Production Challenges of Shelby Oaks
00:06:10
Speaker
yes i see like I kind of get people's fascination with him and I do enjoy seeing like his like especially like his list end of the year list of like his top movies because there'll be some movies that I've genuinely I'm like I've never heard of this like so like I always like hearing that perspective from like just like critic or film fans of just like oh are you put something on my radar that like was never gonna come across my plate otherwise but I i I don't even want to call it skeletons.
00:06:44
Speaker
and He's got some skeletons. OK. I was just talking about like the the fandom around him. But like what? So so what but what's what's what's what's this? What's the lights, camera, Jackson skeletons like? Is he like conservative? He's a pretty big conservative. Yeah. like He's like a big fan of Trump and so and stuff. Right. So it's like one of those things you have to keep in the back of your mind where you're just like.
00:07:02
Speaker
full-on Trump support I guess like Armand White is too you know there are critics who are out there who are like that right uh but when it comes why I bring up Light Scammer Jackson in relation to Chris Duckman is I would also describe Light Scammer Jackson as very like normie core almost right like he's like even in those top 10 lists of the year right the movies that you had not heard of would probably be like ah British co-productions with like character actors and it's like a bunch of men in the room in a room together maybe it's like set during World War II they're not like they're not like art house films yeah like he's not watching things that like push the form forward or play with the form in any kind of way like I don't know what his take on I saw the TV glow is but probably not good he probably didn't like it
00:07:49
Speaker
but Hey, i I'll eat. for You know what? I'm go to look up like is his top 10 list of that year. Right. But it's got to bring it back to for Stuckman. Right. Just to give you the greater idea of it. Right. He in recent years, ah but actually, I would say like a while ago, he did a Kickstarter. Right.
00:08:06
Speaker
ah For this movie, Shelby Oaks. and He wanted to. ah you know, make a movie, right? He wanted to break out from YouTube and do the thing, right? And the original goal was for $200,000 and he ended up raising $600,000 over that, right?
00:08:21
Speaker
And then ah through co-financing that came after the fact, you know, he starts ah getting in contact with Mike Flanagan. ah The budget of this movie is at like around $1.4 million, right?
00:08:32
Speaker
And the like, We should say on the outset, right? Like, that's still pretty cheap for a movie, right? and Right. And that certainly colors the perception and how we should view Shelby Oaks in that way.
00:08:44
Speaker
However, i do think that, like, the problems with the film and its core are also emblematic in Chris Duckman's reviews, where it's like, he's very, like, polished, right?
00:08:57
Speaker
but but But, like, the thing... is just barely beneath the surface. like Right, like, is there anything area to date and to dig into? Okay, that that's interesting, and that makes a lot sense.
00:09:09
Speaker
Because Mike Flanagan's name is, when the credits finally do drop, and I do like a like later movie movie, credits drop like you Mike Feing is name is before ah Stuckman's I feel like it says it's like Mike Feing presents so it's like just getting that name attached alone it's like there's gonna be more eyeballs on your movie and it's gonna it's just gonna be bigger you like because like it's got larger reach got a larger budget and part of me wonder is wondering now like thinking of that whole arc you laid out because I do look like hearing of like the origin stories of like okay how do you break through it's like that makes
00:09:45
Speaker
someone has large enough following that they could parlay that into a Kickstarter to like finance, you know, like a passion project that makes sense. And then, then you get this additional outs outside financing. It's like, did that extra scale and level up almost,
00:10:01
Speaker
ah heard it because like I I had no kind of like I said I had no preconceptions of stuck with stuff but even just the movie like the initial trailer I saw it was like moody in in atmospheric at least that that and maybe I was just you know like on a couple edibles when I saw but I vibed with the trailer you know I was like oh wow this this just looks spooky as hell but it it it gave off the vibes of like um I I don't want to say like a quainter, but like a more enigmatic movie.
00:10:30
Speaker
Whereas the final product we end up getting and we'll get more into it is like, it's very tradition. It's like very by the number. It was like, it like the sum of all these parts, like sometimes I can still be on board with a horror movie if like, okay, the vibes were great the ah most way through. And then at the end, what it adds up to, I don't love and then I give it a pass on that but it's also not nailing the build up but then also what it adds up to just makes me feel like I'm like oh okay so what were we doing here
00:11:06
Speaker
Well, I wanted to touch on a few things that you said going back to like Mike Flanagan, right? yeah And he's really important to this production, I feel, right? Because something I didn't say when I was talking about like how this film came to be is that apparently they ah were missing scenes and they needed more financing and that's like something that really helped. And it seems like Mike Flanagan was a big part of that. Right.
00:11:27
Speaker
So I feel like there's an immense gratitude on Stuckman's part. And he's putting his name out there, not just because, you know, of the Flanagan association, but I get the impression that he's also like genuinely grateful. Right. And, and I should say like, I like Mike Flanagan's work mostly like not all the time. Right.
00:11:42
Speaker
And I do think that, uh, he seems to have like a bubble, around him you know like there's always like a horror sphere everyone's kind of coming to one another right but then feel like there's also like a mike flanagan sphere right now right where there's like his troop of actors like his people who are around him right who are his friends as well right uh and it's from all sorts like of the line right it just seems like he's kind of like a nice or james one not in terms of like he's in like his productions but in terms of like this is troop that he's built, you know, it's like, his of course you have his wife there who's going to be in everything and she's lovely, but then also like his, his, you know, his go-to, you know, who show up like throughout all, all his theories and in movies. And yeah, I'm a big proponent of, of Flanagan. Like I did.
00:12:28
Speaker
did ah did an episode, I don't remember if that was last year earlier this year, or ah talking about legacy sequels, and Doctor Sleep ranked pretty high up there for me. I just, like, I legit love Doctor Sleep. by A movie, like, especially a movie like that where it's, like,
00:12:45
Speaker
The fact that you're even doing this is a big swing. And then not not only does it work and is coherent when it comes out, but I'm like, oh, I'm actually like moved by this and find this like actually like very touching.
00:12:56
Speaker
And it's I'm like, oh, this this is like this movie is a miracle. So like I give Flanagan lots of points for because he seems to purely just do his own thing. Like once, especially like when he had that Netflix blank check, I don't think anyone else makes it.
00:13:11
Speaker
midnight mass that way you know it's like a lot it's been said of how that's like very much like yeah it's in the milieu of like Stephen King it's like very um fucking what's the the vampire Stephen King Salem's Lot yeah it's very much just like Salem's Lot but his version of Salem's Lot is like, okay, there's going to be like a monologue about faith and like existentialism, like every like few minutes. And, and, but it's going to be like really capable actors are going to be doing these like lengthy back and forth sort of like long monologues about the meaning of life and death. And I'm like, Oh wow. This ah for me, I'm like, this is great.
00:13:54
Speaker
Television. Like I'm like very, really entertained by, by that. Yeah. I feel like ah Flanagan is who Stephen King wanted Mick Garris to be in the 80s and 90s and beyond, right? He wanted somebody who would be very close to the source material and do it justice and do it in a breakneck pace, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
And a lot of his stuff is Stephen King oriented, right? um And when it comes to ah Mike Flanagan, he's a very emotive director. And and you know I feel like that's also represented in his persona,
00:14:27
Speaker
Right. And the way that he is working with these people repeatedly over time and how he he's kind of in that ecosystem of horror. Right. um The reason I bring it up in relation to Stuckman is because like it seems like this movie had like a lot of support, you know, like it seems like festivals happened.
00:14:43
Speaker
There was a lot of recuts. Apparently the movie was a bit longer before. That's what I heard about there before the reshoots is that it was actually before the additional scenes were filmed. It was longer. And I'm curious what that, where that extra parts were. I'm like, was that at the end? Because the end is probably like where that would be most needed. It is like, the yeah, that's that's where I didn't get everything. Yeah.
00:15:11
Speaker
Because as is, even with reshoots, it feels like parts are missing, you know? Like, it's like the prince rolling. I'm like, oh, okay. That's, we're done.
Critique of Shelby Oaks' Narrative and Audience Perception
00:15:21
Speaker
I'm fairly certain Keith David was one of the reshoots, which I have to say, like, the way that this movie frames Keith David, it's like, he's he's not on screen when they first show him. Like, they they build up to him. I just like,
00:15:32
Speaker
This is awesome. You know, usually Keith David is just like thrown on screen in some movie, right? And this movie is like, no, we we got Keith David. We understand the importance and significance of this. And it's just one scene, but it is a it is a pretty good, I mean, arguably if I'm going to go through like fully, like there's moments, like like little moments throughout the movie where like, oh, that shot looks cool. That's a little eerie. But like if we're like actually full scenes that work,
00:16:00
Speaker
Keith Davis is the best scene, right? like Yeah. I would say. It's when it feels like a movie, you know, like a real movie, right? And that's no offense to like any of the other actors, right?
00:16:11
Speaker
It's actually more so speaking to like Chris Stuckman's focus. I feel like when when Keith David was there on set, he's like, I gotta walk in, you know? Yeah. and And then you walk in, you're like, oh my God, you know, like he's talking about this great evil that invaded his prison, you're like, this sounds like the most spooky shit ever. And it it felt it does a good job of hyping something that doesn't really pay off. I mean, yeah, I guess, well, is there much more to say in non-spoilers other than, like, I mean, like, I don't even know who I recommend this this movie to.
00:16:46
Speaker
If you like horror movies that don't... do anything to against the grave you know like if you're like man horror movies these days are just too different they're just doing crazy shit all the time you're like you're just like i i just want something simple in in in So yeah, I mean, there are creepy moments like oh I think, but it's like not a sustained atmosphere that it keeps up, but like it undercuts itself continually.
00:17:19
Speaker
ah it yeah, it, it's a frustrating watch because it's like when I do start vibing with parts of I'm like, the movie that it's like being up for me seems really like it could be interesting and then the it's like no we're not doing that movie and like so why did you show me that you were why why did you suggest that you were maybe making that or this that was the movie I was watching and that that's not what we're doing oh okay its it's It's like a bait and switch.
00:17:49
Speaker
it's It's subverting your expectations, but in a the it's the opposite of what people say, Rian Johnson ah does or something where it's like, well, yeah, what if we subverted and we just made it dumber than what you think? I feel like it this is a real situation where it's like you threw this party in for what you know like right so like there's there's no real reason for this movie to exist right i do like so outside of this fact right i don't even know if you know this right but this is actually like a sequel slash like adaptation uh pre-existing arg that was on youtube did you know about this
00:18:26
Speaker
I and like again this is more of like the by reputation osmosis I've heard people talk about this ARG I didn't know it was like explicitly tied to like Shelby Oaks lore I just knew the way people talked about it was like oh that sounds like spooky and enigmatic so like based on that and then the trailer i was like that's what I'm gonna get in this movie it's gonna be like enigmatic and like kind of weird and it may be idiosyncratic and in certain ways but that sounds like yeah kind of thing that I would be into and then the movie is like not that yeah well well like lucky for you you know like it's in the film itself right and in the film like you also get like yeah you know like night mind is there and he's like you know talking about that we'll talk about when we get spoilers what the reason I bring it up right is because I feel like that this movie is so close to entering into a place of like a like
00:19:19
Speaker
newer realm in terms of like uh movies that are based on like creepy pastas and ARGs right like beyond the Slendermans right making it more normalized almost right and i and that's an element at least I at least appreciate is that Chris Duckman he's taking that kind of material and he's treating it like as seriously as Stephen King as whoever right uh but the problem is is what you said earlier on it's like uh who would I recommend this movie for It's for no one, right? It's for Chris Stockman, right? This is a calling card movie for him to make more movies in the future, right? It's like just competent enough in certain areas where he can show it in his reel and he can, you know, people can watch that and they can go, oh yeah, okay, well'll we'll throw you a couple million to make whatever.
00:20:05
Speaker
And, you know, like good for him, you know? The problem is just that the movie itself is just not, really What do I as the audience member get out of it? yeah I'm not financing the next movie. I mean, my takeaway, yeah, is is like, yeah, that base level competency, I recognize that. and I'm like, I would be interested if ah in another film by him, especially if he took like a bigger swing, because this it he almost feels like he gears up for a swing. Like there's, ah I guess, I guess it's a a sauce spoiler. I'll say it. But like, just in terms of like the formats of like, eight
00:20:41
Speaker
what what we're combining I'm like that this could be very interesting and then you just i yeah I feel like doesn't doesn't capitalize on it also yeah nice like a reference that Marin serious man that was a good episode I wish I wish he had longer like he had the dip but I was like man I was I love that movie too so hearing him get passionate about like one of my favorite films I'm like I could listen to five hours of this yeah i'm i I didn't listen to the last episode of WTF because I heard it was ah Barack Obama, right?
00:21:16
Speaker
And I've heard so many people it before, but I'll say, yeah, like, look, is i've heard I've heard enough from him, you know? Make a movie or... or or Like, you know what? I'll assume when he opens the library, you know, but like he's already done enough. part Do another movie with Sam Esmail or whatever. I mean, i didn't even finish that one that he did for that was like Julia Roberts. Oh, that movie was a train wreck. I like the did ah thing with Julia Roberts after Mr. Robot on Amazon. It was like a miniseries. I like that. Homecoming, I think it was called like that was quite good. Yeah.
00:21:52
Speaker
and But then then the movie for Netflix, I i was like, I don't i don't know what to make of this. so that I just stopped. I was like, this is not Mr. Robot. I'm okay.
00:22:04
Speaker
You know, like ah to go back to Blank Check a bit, right? ah Two things on it, right? the The second is more of a question. ah But the first is, um so with Blank Check, I feel like the Coen Brothers series has been like one of the best that they've done recently.
00:22:20
Speaker
You know, um it's been better than previous filmographies that they've gone through. I feel like it's just been better chemistry wise and material wise. I found it hilarious that out of all the guests so far, though, Stavros Halkius just fit in perfectly yeah on the podcast. Like the True Grit episode is probably the best episode of the whole so far.
00:22:40
Speaker
It was fantastic. And it it made me hype to rewatch a movie I already really like and rank pretty highly when hearing them talk from like, yeah god damn this is a great movie uh and yeah like you said he he fit like a like a glow i mean i've been getting more into though i i took a backward like there's a lot of internet personalities that i either i'm like It's like you think I would be into him and I'm not. Or I enter in a very backdoor way. because Like I started watching the Adam Friedland show before any listening to any Comptown stuff. So it's like I got into Adam Friedland show. A wholly experienced the way you just did, you know, like that's the moral correct way to do that.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, and then then start listening to some Nick Mullen stand-up. I'm like, okay, this is pretty funny. And then more and more like Come Town stuff shows up on my YouTube videos. I'm like, okay, well, might as well check this out. And then it is funny, but I'm like, yeah, I don't... My perception of what a show called Come Town would even be, i was like, yeah, I guess this is pretty much it, except it's funny because it's like these guys are very funny. So it's like that that that do that that kind of riffing.
00:23:47
Speaker
works for for for me, but that it it was really just the name that I was like, it's not like I'm the most mature person ever. Hump Town. Podcast Hump Town. Come on, please. I'm an adult.
00:24:01
Speaker
For me, it's like, I like Adam. You know, I think the Friedland show is great. You know, I think Stavros is really funny. I've listened to his podcast before here and there. Nick Mullen was on Sam Hyde's show.
00:24:12
Speaker
You know who Sam Hyde is, right? He has also shown up on... I don't watch Fox enough to know their whole programming blog, but it's like a late night like thing. life is Like it's like, you're like after midnight or in the middle of the night, some kind of Fox. I didn't even recognize the, the, the talking heads they had on there, but it it basically was like some kind of round table.
00:24:34
Speaker
They'll be like, Oh, cancel culture. Huh? And then Nick Mullen's been ah the clips. I've seen, it seems he's on there like half drunk or a fully drunk. It was like, yeah, don't know.
00:24:45
Speaker
good like there how did they book you like why what is i i can tell you what it is just like the thing is just fox and conservative media in general are so starved for talent right the thing is is a lot of people just like a they don't want to associate with the conservative movement right and then b it's like if they do they don't want to show up at fox news they're busy doing other shit right right like only only like your steven crowders are gonna like go on or your greg gut films are gonna go on news right so like nick mullen taking that offer sarcastically or not you know it's an easy like that's an easy in essentially i guess if you hear his stuff out of context like if you're not like be like yeah this is the quote quote dirtbag left these are guys who like campaign for for bernie and and and stuff like that and you're just like
00:25:34
Speaker
hearing Nick Mullen do a Chinese accent and you're like yeah this is the he's probably anti-woke you know this is my kind of guy a like I guess that does make sense for the conservatives to be like you're one of us right but it's like I don't think he is
00:25:53
Speaker
I wanted to get back to ah the the Shelby Oaks. ah But before that, I wanted do the second thing I was going to bring up. Have you made any headway on watching Larry Fessenden's Beneath?
00:26:06
Speaker
No, I need to just, why I haven't crack cracked any of them yet, but that's like up there on my to-do list. I mean, ah because Beneath's the one with Griffin Newman, right?
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, and like, and do you know anything about his character or no? I mean, I'm just picturing Griffin Newman in a, like, a shark attack movie, so don't know, he's probably just some, like, cuck.
00:26:31
Speaker
he He plays the film-obsessed pervert who has a GoPro on his wrist. And his character is essentially just an insert for Larry Fest did to make commentary on how bad found footage horror films of the era were.
00:26:45
Speaker
So like, just something to get, you know, to wet your willy, you know, like ah Griffin Newman is hilarious in the movie and he's, he's overacting like crazy, you know, and but he's also essentially playing the same character he played in the Woody Allen movie that he slayed her in. So it's very strange that he's repeating those kinds of character archetypes.
00:27:07
Speaker
i haven't I haven't seen that that Woody Allen movie. Don't. Not worth it. Bad. like No, bad movie. Shelby Oaks, though. ah Great, great movie.
00:27:19
Speaker
Sorry, your video was unsynced, so i'd like I was like, oh, if I were off and back on. Okay, wait, do you want me to leave it off? is it you Leave it on if it's... Yeah, now it's good. Yeah, it it was that it was like being weird before.
00:27:33
Speaker
ah So Shelby Oaks. Yeah, let's just let's just get let's just get the spoilers. Yeah, go find it yourself you haven't watched it yet. I mean, I'm not even saying like, ground out why i like you you just wait till it's streaming. Like there's other stuff from our, even on streaming, like weapons is on HBO. Now go rewatch that. Or, you know, like yeah much better use your time.
00:27:55
Speaker
There's, there's great shit, uh, that you could be watching. ah so spoilers, uh, I like was quite into the like found footage opening and I didn't even know that that was going to be an element of the movie. I thought it was just going to be like a regular horror movie.
00:28:11
Speaker
And then, so having that opening, i was like, Oh, are we going to like kind of be combining formats of like, um, who are those DFX guys who do the the low budget stuff?
00:28:25
Speaker
Benson and Moorhead. Yeah, Benson and Moorhead's like ah horror movies where it's like ah a good portion of the ones I've seen, it's like people keep finding weird tapes that inexplicably... It's like...
00:28:38
Speaker
POVs that like would not be public like how would there even be a camera there who was watching us and like them like trying to piece things together from finding like these weird art you know artifacts and i was like ah are we gonna get something kind of like that and it's like no not really it's just we have this it's not even really a framing device because the end doesn't really have it it's like really just like front-loading the exposition of like what happens to the sister and then we is you know but then you go into like the movie proper and I completely absurd ah yeah I'm not opposed to that idea it's just
00:29:19
Speaker
it's the way am it's again, like what is label and service of? Yeah. Yeah. It's, this the way it's the way it's handled. Cause like, I didn't take a stopwatch to it, but you're in that initial opening for a bit that I almost started to think I'm like, Oh, is this the, maybe I was mistaken from the trailers. Is this the movie that we're just going like, kind of just be watching these tapes. And then she's going to be doing her documentary, like looking for her sister. It's like, no, not really. Like that's just like,
00:29:46
Speaker
it Honestly, that's the most annoying thing about the movie because it's like, does her ghost hunting, her sister's ghost hunting show actually matter in anything in terms of like...
00:29:58
Speaker
h double but it Like, it's aesthetically important because it that's, like, the whole, like, dramatic intrigue of the first act, pretty much, right? That they're this, like, show with, like, four other people, ah three other people, and then the sister, and it's about, like, what happened to them that night. And I think that, that like, the real...
00:30:17
Speaker
interesting decision I find with this movie is how we kind of pass aside like the rest of the ensemble to just focus on this one person right and I think that speaks more so to Chris Stuckman trying to like clean things up and make this just like you know a singular journey for a protagonist but one thing that I find interesting is that a lot of the opening is using footage from the actual ARG I believe I don't think they really needed it So so's like those are like the those are the videos that you find on YouTube, right, that are, you know, here are them just there. Right.
00:30:49
Speaker
And I believe that they were actually uploaded in like 2008. Like they were pretty early ARGs. Right. um So that's interesting to include that stuff. Right. yeah And then also just think about it this way, right? Like, this is the perspective I'm coming at the movie.
00:31:05
Speaker
So it's like, we're watching this framing device and it's being told in this like found footage slash scree life way where we're getting these tapes, but then we're also interacting with like news footage and everything. clearly edit like you're you're supposed to believe that this is like some kind of documentary that's being made about uh the protagonist of the film and then we don't we never really see them throughout the rest of the film which is strange but anyways i digress the thing is is that we kind of watched like a pretty basic setup for a found footage film and then like the movie thinks that that was such a great achievement like it had hooked you so well that when it makes that
00:31:40
Speaker
cut and there's like the opening credits and it's like oh we're we're announcing ourselves the movie is starting now right it feels like this really confident swing and ah and like it feels unearned right like sometimes people can make that transition and and you know it is a big transition because you're changing into an entirely different movie at this point the problem is is that we we've transitioned from like 20 minutes of footage that already existed that was met within a different context that we watch more of later by the way and then we get like really an hour of like proper movie right yeah and and in that hour it's like it's bringing up so many different things and the problem is is that it doesn't have the time nor the care nor the attention to really dwell into the things that it brings up
00:32:29
Speaker
Because I'm down thinking about, I'm like, shoot this and without knowing all the actions. Like, I'm sure there's maybe more footage in the ARG that like wasn't included in that opening or something or whatever. the oh I can tell you it's it's the other deep that she finds.
00:32:44
Speaker
Oh, that that's exactly what it is. Okay. Because it's like, it It's like he's trying to recreate the experience of someone going through those videos and trying to piece it together and solve it.
00:32:58
Speaker
But how that's demonstrated in the movie through the sister is far less compelling. And we get clips in that open opening 20 minutes of like people online who are like after the, you know, the team goes missing of like, like people have been watching these videos obsessively. And like the clips we get of those people doing like their own, like,
00:33:16
Speaker
you know, like web sleuthing things. I'm like, that was actually like a more compelling glimpse of like that kind of like how to capture the vibe of someone who would have been playing the ARG, but in movie for, you know, like, like, no, that, that, and now I'm not saying like, we should be following those random people online, but it's like maybe find a way to ah include like some of that energy or those ideas in it.
00:33:43
Speaker
I mean, Maybe she could be part of that community, you know, like it be reaching out to people on Reddit while she's like trying to piece things together throughout them. Cause like, it seems like he's in a very unique opportunity to have his perspective as a YouTuber, like that you could be incorporating like the internet, this cross media things in, in, in very interesting and unique ways that you wouldn't get from like the perspective of just a filmmaker that wasn't part
Structural and Thematic Analysis of Shelby Oaks
00:34:08
Speaker
of their life. So ah it is like, what, what,
00:34:12
Speaker
is you unique to him other than the this footage that he already had is he really bringing to that element and i'm like i don't really feel like he did anything that i haven't seen with like other movies incorporate like you know like oh like the benson warhead stuff like hey what are these were these weird tapes
00:34:31
Speaker
Well, the problem with Chris Stuckman in this situation is that, like, he... Okay, I shouldn't frame it as a problem, right? Like, the thing is, is that ah I've heard him talk about, like, the inspiration for this film, and it's something about his story that I didn't bring up before, because...
00:34:48
Speaker
not like it's not like relevant to his career but it's relevant to this film specifically so his family's Jehovah's Witness right and he was raised very yes and he said that a lot of this film is based around his relationship with his sister that he didn't see for a long period time we'll get into how weird that is later on uh but Like when it comes to why the, you know, ah intentions for making this movie is, it feels like he's taking this pre-existing thing that existed, this paranormal, paranoid ARG series that existed online, and then he's turned it into this neat narrative to where he can put his own personal stamp on it, which, you know, I think that that is valid. I think that, know, in terms of adapting a story, you can do that and it can go well.
00:35:31
Speaker
The problem is is that you can also see the other version where it's like, ah other paranormal YouTubers in the future coming back to try to figure this thing out. And maybe that's interesting, right?
00:35:41
Speaker
Or maybe there's a universe where it's like, we get to know where all of these people were, how all of those families are trying to fight. Yeah. Don't they don't those anyone care about those other people? No, fuck them. That's really crazy to me.
00:35:54
Speaker
It's really crazy. There is, like, you sure, as far as the police are involved, I could buy, like, okay, they found some bodies, so that's a closed loop as far as those people are concerned. Like, cops don't want to do more work than they have to, so they're like, yeah, like these people died, and then there's also the the tape they have, so they're like, yeah, don know, it's fucked up. These people, something got these guys, but the families would...
00:36:17
Speaker
want to there would be other people like our protagonists who are like what the fuck happened here you know who killed my brother who killed my whatever know and i think a more interesting film exists there where it's like a like another you'd want another ensemble in my eyes right you'd want to mirror what had happened with the original paranoid paranormal paranoids right maybe bring a documentary crew because there's a doc she's having a documentary already has about her but She could just keep the film found footage. Right. And that's the thing. Right. He's like, there's no reason for Stuckman to go in this traditional filmmaking realm. Right. And ah and I'm not even going to say that he's particularly terrible at traditional filmmaking. or actually think i'm I'm quite surprised with how ah he transitioned with no real real formal training. Right. He's a critic. He's he didn't go to film school. I don't believe right he just did that. Right. So I think that that's interesting.
00:37:10
Speaker
Right. that what What I do find interest that not so interesting is that when we do get into the kind of machinations of this, this movie just feels like it's just copying scenes from other movies over and over again.
00:37:22
Speaker
You know, like in in every scene is just like another redo and Early on, when we enter into this narrative section, it really starts to feel like sinister and like a lot of other Scott Dewey films.
00:37:34
Speaker
Like, like, it feels like, you know, the melodrama of like, uh, the last exorcism, not sorry, the exorcism of Emily Rose. Uh, this stuff that's like in the prison feels like deliver us from evil, even like it, like it feels so derivative from those,
00:37:51
Speaker
standpoints the found footage is clearly pulling from like mungo and then like we'll especially get into it later on like he's really pulling from david fincher like whenever he's like in doubt he is just trying well because because he because another movie i kept thinking of like oh this is kind of like bad the empty man and empty man ah david prior obviously a fincher guy you know like that's there there is a connection there so ah Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if if he's seen the amputee. Because like, yeah, like the fincher the Fincher thing is very ah apparent.
00:38:26
Speaker
I'm not even, ah you know, you could wear your influences on your sleeve. That's fine. You know, and that could be endearing sometimes, too. But it's like, there should be an iteration on top of it.
00:38:38
Speaker
You know, like something like, what is your take on this idea? other than being like just showing that for the sake of like, I can do that too.
00:38:48
Speaker
Kind of that. That's kind of just like what this whole thing feels like to like what you're saying about, why does this movie exist? Like, and why is this movie not all unfound footage? Almost is just to have that flex of like, look at this fucking 20 minutes in the title drop.
00:39:04
Speaker
That's fucking crazy. Look how fucking now we're making a real movie. Look up being my balls are right now. he's fucking Gaspar Noé Braden Corbett or some shit, right? like it And you're like, this is like this is just like a like Strange Darling did something that was kind of reminiscent to that, I believe, right? And it was just like, you don't, like, there are ways of doing that that don't come across as overconfident. There are ways of doing that that actually feel, like, natural to the story.
00:39:34
Speaker
and And when it does make that change, it does feel like it's more in service of Chris Duckman as a filmmaker. And also, like, I think about, like, the way that the plot is moving at this time. It's very quick.
00:39:46
Speaker
Well, think about what happens with the sister, right? The protagonist of this film. Like, immediately, the the husband's out of the picture, right? and Which was one of the most interesting parts where I was like,
00:39:57
Speaker
I don't want him to still, like you keep saying it should be an ensemble, like one, keep the documentary crew around, but then also have the husband go along with the ride. Even if begrudgingly, you can tell he's like, thinks his wife is going crazy, but he doesn't want to like say that or something. Like there's like interesting things to play in there. And I think that, I think they had,
00:40:18
Speaker
both of those actors had interesting scenes together, but he's barely in the movie. So we don't get to even, because there's the moment at the end where he like tries to take her hand after she's found her sister. And she kind of like, like moves it away from like, she kind of like cups her hands. We can't hold And I'm like, why weren't we getting shit like that dr throughout the whole? Cause that's like,
00:40:39
Speaker
would would have been a super interesting character dynamic you know like a real movie you know like it would actually make you feel something you know the the problem i feel with this movie over and over again is that does the classic like inexperienced filmmaker trick and you've probably seen many student films you've seen many like you know first films right uh When it comes to ah people who are on their first outing, I feel like it's a very cliche thing that you see over and over again where people like to film character singular protagonists in empty spaces.
00:41:13
Speaker
And then they notice an object and then they hold the object up and they look at it. Right. And you get the shot or shot of them holding up the object. It's just scenes of that just happening over and over again.
00:41:23
Speaker
And if you were to like go back and look through the movie and you were to choose like the most aesthetic images, it would just be pictures of people in rooms and people holding up objects. And when you're watching Shelby Oaks, that's just what this is over and over. Yeah.
00:41:37
Speaker
It's this protagonist walking into spaces, finding an object, looking at it, you know, but holding it really close to their face and the characters looking at like the audience is looking at it. And then something spooky happens they run away.
00:41:49
Speaker
Right. And it's just this ad nauseum over and over again. it's it's very jane the shade video gamey but in the laziest way of that because it's like you said like she doesn't even have to look for these things that she finds she kind of just like immediately upon entering a space it's like there's like it's glowing in the environment or something you like those games where they have the painted lines and be like go here and so she she just immediately finds the thing and then it's to the next thing for her to find the next thing it's like that the that if you wanted to even capture it because like I said like you could incorporate it make this kind of feel like a game in a cool way but like you're not capitalizing on that in any way and then like the the formula of like she finds a thing and then we get either a jump scare or spooky thing it's the laziest version most cliche version of that kind of scare like I'm thinking of
00:42:40
Speaker
the prison scene where after all this hyping up, like she's talked to the ward and she's heard all this creepy shit about the prison, about the cell. She's seen the video or her sister was doing there. And she goes into the cell.
00:42:50
Speaker
She sees the imprint of like where that guy was standing when he was in there. And I was like, okay, there's vibes here. And then to leave the mold in the cell, I was like, okay.
00:43:02
Speaker
But then it's just, there's like a big, ah you know, ah black demon guy and then the dog and then she runs away. It's like we don't we're not capitalizing on any of these interesting set up elements in any meaningful way.
00:43:20
Speaker
this movie really feels like a slasher movie or something. that This isn't a slasher movie. This feels like something that we playing in the background of another better horror movie, right? It doesn't feel like ah complete scenes. It feels like we're meant to just like see images while we're half paying attention, right?
00:43:36
Speaker
But, you know, you're asking who this movie was for. Maybe it's for like couples making out who aren't watching this movie. And they're just like, you know, using the movie as a pretense to hook up, right? Right. The problem with this is that there's no, like,
00:43:49
Speaker
all that it has are its references and what it's attempting to do. Right. So from a scene to scene basis, there's no real cohesion. And even for like a shot to shot basis, which is pretty crazy.
00:44:02
Speaker
i but you You get, they can happen, you know, like in these lower budget films, but like never so blatantly where you're like, what, what are the things that are scary in this movie? It's just like a guy who was out the window with some eyeballs, right.
00:44:15
Speaker
Or some dogs. Right. and And I feel like there's a lighting on the old woman's face of how you don't so when you're not seeing her face initially. I was like, that's creepy. But then then we spend too much time with her and then she stops being scary.
00:44:31
Speaker
she She's her own problem. I'm kind of like separating the rest of the movie there because like I feel like so much of the rest of the film is just this kind of like. the it's like baseline scary, you know, where it's like, it's, it's, it's a person who's kind of watching you just out of frame.
00:44:48
Speaker
It's this thing. That's kind of just normal. You know, the dogs is like, why are there like, other than the howling and the original tapes, right? Why would you have dogs just be this? is the way They have some, where she's doing her very expedited research where I'm like, how dare you? Because we see her go to a library and she's like using like,
00:45:07
Speaker
of, you know, microfilms. so I'm like, I'm ready to start cheering because I've missed scenes like that in movie, but then she's like there for a second and she's like, is got like to the next thing, you know, it's like, um not I can tell you why that was there. That was just like him doing seven, you know, like, yeah, he he was just wanting to do Morgan Freeman in the library and that's the right. And, and, and that's the only purpose. It's there for,
00:45:28
Speaker
it it it It works because, you know, the sound design is working like the the camera angles are perfect. Capture that kind of moment. The problem is that has no real purpose in the story. Any other reason is there is because you can put you can put that on Chris Stockman's reel to show that he could do all these different genres.
00:45:45
Speaker
Right. And it's like, i I'm fine with you showing off, you know, there debut filming. You want to flex and show what you can do, but like do something with that, though. It's like a you yeah ah you do all the Maj. 7 adventure. Great.
00:45:59
Speaker
But can we like what's your take on like the library investigation scene? And it's like there isn't one. It's just she looks at the thing, goes to the next place.
00:46:10
Speaker
And it's like comically, she just has that book from the library where it's like demon shit or whatever. book let's say it's like bagul problem even even that's more subtle in comparison it's like a like man i would killed for let's get a visit off here on skype he could he could really clear up this uh what's that demon's name tarion it's like a an incubus or something but Well, they try to do it here with Keith David, but Keith David is just talking about the guy and he's just going, he did some fucked up shit.
00:46:44
Speaker
And that's that's inherently scary. be One, yeah you have Keith David's gravitas, but then also you're channeling it through, don't want to say like you unique, because like people done like, okay, this possessed person's carrying some kind of corruption with them. Like that's that's an idea we've seen before, but the way it's being explained, sounds...
00:47:02
Speaker
it sounds scary it's a problem that that can you reveal the demon behind that that it is not even a fraction is creepy as that ah idea is like that that's that's an issue You know what another big issue for me is, is that this whole thing feels like Silent Hill, not just even the games movie, right? Where it's like there's this abandoned town, you know, where it's like in the middle of Ohio, you know, all these, you know, like bear trees and abandoned buildings.
00:47:35
Speaker
And the problem is, is that she only goes to the locations from the tapes. You'd have no understanding of the larger geometry of this Shelby Oaks, right? Right. you can find these abandoned towns. They exist within America. It's not hard to find a place that is, you know, going to fit this mold.
00:47:52
Speaker
Trust me, I never watch, I watch enough urban explorers on YouTube to know this. Right. The problem is, is that ah they only focus on the, like the B2B things that matter for the emotional through line in the character's true story.
00:48:07
Speaker
The problem is, is that when you are trying to tell these stories, you need to have, some kind of character to it so that we can be led into their world. This is like, so this is like save the cat level screenwriting where it's like, these things are here to just move the story along and we don't really care about the characters, but at least structurally it's sound, right?
00:48:27
Speaker
ah Well, Shelby Oaks, the town itself is like only exists in the abstract. It's like, i don't need full flashbacks of like, yeah that's more expensive you're gonna show a fully populated town and i don't need to see it's it's demise but you can give me like a better sense of where we are when we're there the uh or if your intention is for it to feel disorienting and out of place then make it clear that that's the intention because like again we we're we're saving the old lady in the cabin for for the very end but the fact that that
00:49:02
Speaker
doesn't feel like that's just it's just like she just walks into another movie that doesn't feel like this was like leading here as a part of like yeah this is was like the the most fucked up house on the outskirts of Shelby Oaks you know this is where where the guy lived or or whatever it's just this is just a a whole it feels like a separate thing that does not feel like the same place that we're seeing ah like on the town the abandoned ghost town we see in the tapes does not feel like it has anything to do with that house that at at the end and in And that's an issue.
00:49:34
Speaker
but Absolutely an issue, right? and And the thing is, is that when you bring up this idea of a ghost town, you bring up this idea that they're going to be lost in this place, right? Like if this movie took that idea and mined it even a bit, right? Like you would be able to have...
00:49:49
Speaker
ah let's say the car breaks down, right? And then our protagonist has to run through the town to get somewhere that they remember from the tapes, right? And they're trying to piece it together from like maybe other things that they had seen on, right?
00:50:01
Speaker
Like it's, these things exist. It's, we're we're we're talking it out right now and these answers are here. How, Like, how are they not describing this and finding these things when they're sitting down to write the script, right?
00:50:14
Speaker
ah Right. When they have these locations, because it's not like they don't have these things. You see them pull up to places and they have them. That's not the volume. That's like a ah the ghost. something thatbbby um with ah and and They're near an abandoned place. They have pictures of it.
00:50:29
Speaker
She drives up to it, you know? So it's like, clearly there's something there. that Clearly they're taking advantage of something, right? It's like, you wouldn't... in that circumstance it's not a problem of budget these people like you just ask for permission they just let you if it's abandoned if that's the case like it doesn't cost anything extra to linger in that abandoned town as we like eerily watch her navigate like you don't even need to add other out I mean ideally something will happen but you you could just like have luxury in the vibe because ghost towns are spooky you know so like just there's that there's an opportunity for this to be like carnival of souls even you know, we're good fall elephants right where it's like, you know, she's like walking from place to place.
00:51:10
Speaker
We kind of get that in the sense where it's like she's at the prison, goes the Ferris wheel. or Or when she follows like the dog, I'm like, okay, are we doing something like our, ah yeah, like, like something like I walked with zombies or something where it's like the characters in like some kind of dreamlike super and like that that that's like leading them to their fate. in But we don't,
00:51:35
Speaker
It's not like really using that in any coherent or engaging way for me. It just it kind of just makes her look dumb because like she follows this. that The dog has and been dogs have been nothing but scary every other time she sees them.
00:51:50
Speaker
And then suddenly she sees this one dog that follows And then the the house, there the dog, the right one, the dog, that the the the house that the dog leaves. She's like, okay, this is, this is the place to be. There's nothing fishy about how I found this place or anything about what led me here.
00:52:09
Speaker
I'm not questioning this. I just need to get, find the next clue. that There's this, like talking about the kind of object thing I was talking about before. It's weird how like this movie just kind of gets obsessed with like symbols.
00:52:21
Speaker
And specifically there's the symbols of like, There's a cult being that's the case center of this thing. Tyrion, yeah. And then there's also like the whole our plus M in the heart, right?
00:52:33
Speaker
so This thing that their mother used to do where it was like, you know, the way that you find their way back home. And the the thing is, is this movie is more obsessed with trying to show that over and over again. and play with that Tarion symbol over and over again, where it's like, you don't need to show us these things. We could know we we know what they mean. You showed it us one time.
00:52:53
Speaker
can see it again later on, and that would be enough. When that's the text, when it's literally just showing the same things over and over again, and we're not getting like these... moments of opicness that's where horror resides that's where terror can really thrive is when you don't really know what's going on when you have these symbols immediately followed by uh like these like ghost dogs attacking her or whatever yeah you know like you know what's happening like you you can If you've already established a visual shorthand for this demonic corruption in terms of like the mold and the physical decay of these spaces, like lean into that more of like a how fucked up and decayed these places are.
00:53:32
Speaker
Like I'm creeped out just seeing the mold on the walls in the house that you don't need to get, then go to a symbol where I'm like, oh, I wasn't sure if this place was evil or not. i know I thought this was a good house until I saw that symbol. in And it it also tips its hand about that this is that demon, like, super quickly in a way where I'm like, yeah, okay, so we're not even really doing a mystery because I love a good
Shelby Oaks' Final Act and Reception
00:53:57
Speaker
investigation. Like, we'll get to it when we do Nori. Like, a good, like...
00:54:00
Speaker
you know uh procedural of like let's put these pieces together we don't even know what the shape of what we're dealing with is and it's very quick like i guess there's a lot of books written on terry and that she can just go straight to that shit and it's like yeah that's the uh the guy in incubus you deal with the it zooms in on the lines of like oh it wants to sire a child i like that's probably doesn't mean anything It's probably not going come back later.
00:54:27
Speaker
yeah Exactly. Yeah, no. but Everything is just hitting you over the head because it doesn't care if it is setting a mood. It doesn't care if it's trying to, you know, put you in a headspace.
00:54:39
Speaker
All it wants to do is deliver its story in thats an expedient manner. The thing is, that i have I have a story i not that good, so give me the mood. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. It's like I have no questions when this movie's over. Like, good for you, at least in...
00:54:53
Speaker
conveying the thing that you had in your brain in that sense. The problem is that if that's all your brain had, you know, in the concept of like creating a film, you never thought about like, okay, how am I going to make them feel?
00:55:05
Speaker
You know, how am I going to make them buy into these characters? Problem is is, like, we have to buy into this character because we've seen a million movies and we just are supposed to. So we just accept that. Right. And then when it comes to these scary sequences, there's not a lot of like formality to them beyond like what has been seen in other things. And and I guess we can get into the cabin thing because I feel like we're itching get there. Right. We're clawing.
00:55:29
Speaker
ah yeah ah we're We're like, no, I'm not going to say that. ah but but when it comes to uh the way that this is introduced right it it just becomes hereditary meets zodiac and it's just so like bland it's so like unsurprising when you say those two things together it sounds like that should be so exciting though or you're like hereditary meets yeah zodiac that sounds fucking rad and then we next you know what it sounds like you this sounds like a fucking max landis script it sounds like fucking you know he's in the boardroom and he's like i'm the top shit like look at me and look at all the things that combine and that's the problem when i think about chris duckman as a filmmaker is that like he's he's doing these it's like his t-shirts you know it's like goku and nightmare before christmas you know me yeah
00:56:16
Speaker
like it's cool in like those two things are cool on their own. I don't need to see them put together because when they're put together in this way where there's like a Spencer's gifts kind of way and not in like cool artist, you know who' off on the right know, who has like a cool tea spring, you know, maybe who's putting these things out, you know, but like, like there, those are worlds apart from one another. That's what I feel like with Chris Stuckman is he has no real,
00:56:42
Speaker
vision and how to practice this in the right way. And it's like, you're right. You'll hear that. You're like, yeah, I do want to watch Hereditary meets Zodiac. But it's like the guy has no ah perspective to properly deliver that.
00:56:55
Speaker
He doesn't have the juice yet. I think he has just all of those of like the, you know, like you said, for someone who didn't go to film school and just came straight from YouTube, like there is in terms of his formal technique, it's like decent. Like there are shot compositions where I'm like, that looks decent and like good day images straight up where I am like that's on its own in a vacuum.
00:57:20
Speaker
is creepy. Like if you do it, you know, like the Twitter posts of four screen caps, there are, I could come up with four screen caps in moments where I'd be in you post it and people would be like, oh, is Shelby Oaks good? Like, that looks creepy.
00:57:33
Speaker
ah Oh, people are already mounting the whole Shelby Oaks is good campaign. And to them, I say, shame on you, you know? And the thing is just like, its sorry? I say, good luck.
00:57:44
Speaker
that Yeah, yeah, good luck. Yeah, exactly. We'll see you in 10 years, you know, if you're talking about Shelby Oaks still. The problem is, is that ah it's going back to the resume thing, right? Where it's like it isolated from, you know, any context with a film, you can be like, ah yeah, sure. You know, that image that, like you know, five second clip that works, you know?
00:58:06
Speaker
But then when you're watching it all together, it has so little ah appropriate care and attention to it. And as we're in this cabin sequence, right? Like this whole question is like, oh, we've got this creepy old woman in a nightgown who's talking to her and she's got being kind of weird.
00:58:23
Speaker
And it's like, you know, she's up to some fuck shit. You know, she's done something terrible. I thought she was normal and fine. I was shocked when I learned that she was malevolent.
00:58:35
Speaker
how no i yeah obviously yeah it's it's apparent from the start uh who's that actress i've seen her in all these great i gotta say she's good none of these actors are bad it's just what is given to them you know You can tell that they believed in it.
00:58:54
Speaker
Like, you can tell that the people who wanted to make this movie wanted to make this movie. The problem is that, like, oh but like was was is Chris Stockman helping out? Like, he he kind of feels like he left him to flail a bit.
00:59:06
Speaker
Yeah, like, do you get the the interest especially in terms of, like, characterization or, like, what are the emotion of the, and, like, with horror stuff, you can be fuzzy with some of that stuff, especially, like, when you get to characters who are under otherworldly or demonic influence, you'd be like, well, this is not even really them making that the decision in those moments, but Then I usually need some kind of, like, baseline then for me to under, like, appreciate that then.
00:59:36
Speaker
Because we only get the creepy lady. Like, it's not like we ever see the the like, some turn in where she becomes... Like, she's just creepy and then gets creepier, you know? and and And then is outright, like, oh, the demon's behind her. Like, there's not...
00:59:51
Speaker
ah it an actual escalation in terms of like you could do I mean there's long time since I've read my bedtime stories or are fairy tales but Hansel and Gretel isn't though the witch seems kind of chill at first you know at least to the kids right like is it's seems blu right yeah it's it seems like welcoming like that there's there's no but there's nothing that I mean yes she's determined to find her sister but there's nothing that's like Be at ease here. You're fine. it She finds this a house in the middle of an abandoned town and the house looks like it's a house that's in the middle of an un abandoned town, right? Like it doesn't feel like it's lived in, but the ah assumption is that this woman lives here and there it's like, oh, I heard someone else. Does someone else live here? you know, like,
01:00:42
Speaker
I like her line to literally live like, do you live alone out here? She just says, nope. And then who it like, it does not, no follow up on that. And it's like, it's moments like that where it's like, I wish this movie could capitalize on the promise of her saying that line in that way of like, cause that they like so many things like, yeah, we learned who mom she is, but the also implication of like, what else is in this house? And it's like,
01:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's just like a, ah ah ah like, it's the lamest demon design I've ever seen. The eyes, where we're getting the i the eyes reflected in the window, is that's effective. But then when we see it's full form, which we see way too much of.
01:01:21
Speaker
It's like, this is ah underwhelming as hell. but there was no need for them to show the demon the way that they do. Right. And then also like to go even further, it's like, it's finally revealed that the sister was there the entire time.
01:01:35
Speaker
And, and like, I gotta say, you know, like I'm not one to be a prude or is a prude. Yeah. I think it's a prude where it's like, you don't want to you know, be over the top and these things look the, the,
01:01:50
Speaker
The rape dungeon? I got a problem with the rape dungeon, A. i B, I don't like the idea that you're you're seeing all these images where it's like she got impregnated like dozens of times.
01:02:02
Speaker
A lot lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of times. If those pictures had been revealed, like, I'm like, that is a disturbing idea. And seeing it in those pictures is is more disturbing than any other visual representation of that idea in the movie.
01:02:19
Speaker
But she just finds a photo book just like fucking laying there the when who she's like in the living room. It's like, okay, I get this lady's evil and is a demon, but she did like some scrapbooking about like her son's like, ah you know, rape quest. It's like, we got go it's so quick.
01:02:37
Speaker
It's so quick when it happens in the movie too. Like yourre earre you're in the that den, right? And then she just finds that scrapbook. I'm just imagining like that couple hooking up, right? Imagine like they're, you know, they're macking away.
01:02:49
Speaker
but ugly Look over like, what the fuck? Exactly, right? Like, when did this, like, you're you're you're watching this scene of, like, this woman in this living room, and then all of a sudden you're watching this, like, photo visual story of this woman being, like, continuously raped over the years, right?
01:03:06
Speaker
And then, like, another thing that I have to bring up again is, like, the audacity of Chris Stuckman to say that like, this is inspired by like his connection with his sister and not by you for a long time.
01:03:20
Speaker
You know, I have to ask him about like, what the fuck do you mean by that? but that feels like a real like why did you show me your black friends Chris Duckman like that but that feels like like it's the same problem again showing its face you know where it's like a complete you know why did you go there you know it and it's like it's an earnest exploration of his perspective in the sense where it's like I get it he detests Jehovah's witness to this degree you know where it's like you want to make this kind of viewing commentary of that right but when you frame it in this
01:03:54
Speaker
way when you have it so it's like that sister went through something really real and really raw and she's given no interior for me and it really is this protagonist perspective through it and she is gone through like the worst the worst like Like, it's a jump to me where it's like Chris Duckman doesn't really understand the bounds of taste in my lines.
01:04:16
Speaker
You know, like he doesn't know how to balance these things. And it doesn't feel like it's something that he has a personal connection to because it was like kind of shocking to hear you say that. And especially when people were like, yeah, he escaped the coal and stuff. I'm like, okay, so where is that in the...
01:04:31
Speaker
like I can see the seeds of that, yes, and the themes of like what the movie's actually about in terms of like the the you know the cults around this demon and the indoctrination of that. There's a thing the son says before he kills himself. It's like, you finally let me go. It's like, okay, but none of that feels unique or specific to someone who's lived that.
01:04:52
Speaker
in to To me, yeah it's it's like because it's like, so then what character... Not that it needs to be a one-to-one self-insert. So it's like, are you are you right Riley then? Is that who you're... Are you of your sister? You're seeing your sister in Riley. And then are you the You have a son? Who are you in this equation?
01:05:12
Speaker
but the The metaphor is not clean, right? And the more that you try to think about the metaphor, the more you're like, why did you, why why would you mine from that for this, right?
01:05:22
Speaker
and And when you're getting this whole, like, you know, learning of the situation, it's like, all I'm down to the cellar and it's like Zodiac one-to-one and you're like why it's comical like I I don't know that he filmed that as a comedian like someone like Zach Craig or someone who incorporate I was even you know we cited the hereditary even Ari Aster would know to play the absurdity of how easy that is that there's just a trap door there in the room where she already found the other major reveal that's like but that's a comedic theme
01:05:56
Speaker
it like I don't know that is he is he playing is Stuckman playing that as a comedic because I don't see I didn't tell you exactly why so so the problem this is that Chris Stuckman he watches Ari Aster films and he doesn't understand that most of them are comedies including Hereditary right yes the thing is that a lot of his movies are meant to be really fucking funny problem is Chris Stuckman watches those movies and he's like demon scary demon scary that's like that's this is sinister three you know and that's a problem right he doesn't have a way of like discerning reality in that way in case you know he knows about movies as a thing he doesn't understand it about movies as an expression of emotion and because he used the art form that way he's having a hard time expressing himself but it which is
01:06:42
Speaker
a really interesting thing to see you know from our perspective from analyzing it right right but then uh when it comes to like actually trying to pick this apart like a real movie you know it's like oh what are we what are we doing here back we're so back and okay uh quote retweeted uh my review of shelby oaks on twitter No, who did?
01:07:06
Speaker
Boll. And Uwe Boll, he called the movie Shitty Oaks, which, like, I hate to hand it to him, but it's like, come on, man. He knocked it out of the park with that one.
01:07:20
Speaker
Is he still doing anything? think Like, what's he up to? He should adapt a new, I don't know, if i find a cheap video game license you can make a bad movie out of. He should do that.
01:07:33
Speaker
Well, and he's not like, you know, being an asshole, like bigoted person online, you know, like he's apparently operating a restaurant Vancouver. That's quite good.
01:07:44
Speaker
ah that supposedly Yeah, apparently he's like a really good restaurateur. Like I haven't been there, but people swear by it. They're like, it's actually quite a good restaurant. That's very funny. He was supposed to come, like, it was supposed to open in my neck of the woods, Toronto, and, ah like, it was during COVID, and apparently it just fell through, and it's part of the reason why he's gotten nuts in terms of, like, COVID conspiracies and stuff.
01:08:07
Speaker
He did a movie via about Auschwitz. I'm just looking at his filmography. Oh, yeah, I was like, yeah. That was him trying to be like, I'm a serious filmmaker too. And it's, I've never seen it, you know, but like, I'll, I'll, I'll. Sure.
01:08:20
Speaker
It's very tasteful. German, German provocateur, uh, going to do definitive Auschwitz film. Like he should have done if he wants to do World War Two, like just do that through some schlocky other problems. Like he did a blood rain. I have long time since i played the blood rain game. So I think you're fighting Nazis in those, right? Yeah. Just do that in the blood rain movie. Have a ah off switch scene, you know, like do something like that. And was like, that's for you late, man. Don't try and pretend that this is a real movie.
01:08:54
Speaker
I was always a fan of Alone in the Dark and House the Dead. Those were the two Bowl movies where it's like, I want to watch bad Uwe Bowl movie, I throw those two on. Whenever that clip goes viral, the House of the Dead, where it's cutting between the actual game and the like poorly blocked gunfight, I'm like, you know, if I wanted to be obnoxious and go for like some kind of vulgar altruist argument, like this this this it cap you encapsulates the like...
01:09:24
Speaker
like, yeah, why are video game adaptations doing like crazy dumb shit like that right now? Like, it like fuck fuck the Super Mario Brothers movie. they should It should cut to not even the footage of the game. You're just watching the a kid play Mario on like a box TV. And and and it then it cuts between that and some emotional scene with you here at Chris Pratsport. I don't even know what happens in the Mario movie. I did not finish that.
01:09:52
Speaker
I've never even watched it. You know, I'm just taking people at their word that Mario has a panic attack in that movie. with The thing with Uwe Boll movies is that like Uwe Boll, like those those sequences like in House of the Dead, like you just referenced, it like you will have like sequences where you're like,
01:10:08
Speaker
Wait a second, is the only bowl of cooking for a second? and Yeah. You remember that like most of those movies are just like television actors or inexplicably Oscar winners in like a country like Romania just doing shot-reverse-shot exposition, right?
01:10:23
Speaker
And... that that's where the enjoyment of move a bowl starts to become an issue right where it's like he he can't truly cross over to being like a ah really fun bad movie actor director where it's like he'll have those set pieces that work but then like the majority of his films are just like straight exposition uh i yeah kind of don't know it's just the full movie yeah Yeah, this this whole thing was just me saying, like, maybe we can get Uwe Boll on the podcast, you know, him come on.
01:10:52
Speaker
Maybe he can tell us his thoughts on Shelby Oaks, you know. That would be great. Or just to talk to any movie. Like, i and i'll I'll watch the Auschwitz movie if Uwe Boll comes on.
01:11:06
Speaker
I'm not committing to that. I'm not committing. You can do that. You could ask him the Auschwitz questions. I'll take Postal, you know. that That's how we'll divvy it up. ah yeah ask him how taste the was he think of the the concentration camp scenes in the latest Wolfenstein games and would he like to adapt those in in live action that though that's what I would want to talk to but I want to know if he's seen Zone of Interest, you know, like maybe he's like, maybe he's seen other Auschwitz or, you know, films about concentration camps and he has opinions, you know, where it's like he feels like he did it the best way and and everyone else is like, I don't know about what he's doing there with the Zone of Interest.
01:11:48
Speaker
and I think I don't see anything. that Oh, yeah. ah Come on the pod. Let's talk. Let's talk some shit. Like, yeah in let's let's get you working on another video game movie because honestly, let's get you in the ring.
01:12:06
Speaker
ah Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of stuff, but video game adaptations now are just straight up boring. Even at like people like we they finally cracked it like that. they They're good. I don't know what precipitated that. I think it's just that Sonic and Mario movies both made money and kids are OK with the both of those that are like, yeah, we did it. And like both of those movies are dog shits.
01:12:28
Speaker
but i'm like you guys ever cracked I mean sometimes there's an inexplicable one like I think even though it is a TV show like the fallout show i'm like oh wow this that's actually like a hard thing to do because there's not like a story like fought the writing in some of the fallout games is like great but especially the non Bethesda but like but the the making like an actual like narrative out of that there's no clear like this is the story you adapt to for a fallout story so the fact that they actually like that, you know, it works and also kind of captures elements of what it is like to play. Cause like you have multi-character perspective and that like kind of captures like different play styles of how people would be playing fall games. I'm like, that's actually pretty impressive. And, but that's not the norm. Most game adaptations are not doing that.
01:13:16
Speaker
Ah, Yeah, I haven't seen Fallout yet, but I've heard that it is on that wavelength of like doing those things quite well in that way. And and you want to have something that like mimics the feeling that you had when you played that game, because that's what made that popular.
01:13:32
Speaker
But then also you want to make sure that it's conveying like the right like thematic approach to what that piece meant as a work of art right because that's what video games are and and the problem with a lot of these video game movies as we talked about with like you know sonic and mario also like minecraft you know and ah just by just show the iconography it's just like that's the value of this ip is like you you know the mario characters and here they are they're all here look at them they're they're there I don't think that there's been a single like good video game movie yet.
01:14:06
Speaker
The closest one was Silent Hill. But even though I don't think Silent Hill is a good movie. I just fall. I think. But I do. I do defend. style But even then, the new one that that same director is doing, I'm like, I don't know. This looks sus. And I was like into the first movie. in And maybe it'll be good. I mean, you know, I want all movies good. So, you know, I'm rooting for it.
01:14:29
Speaker
um It'll certainly be better than Shelby Oaks. Shitty Oaks. Shelby notes. So yeah, let's, let's go back to this rape kit of cabin because ah all my so much of this marketing is the sister in very like the, the images they're using to promote this movie on their own are like frightening in a way where you're like, man, I can't,
01:14:56
Speaker
this movie is going to be go hard, I guess, if if this is what they're, because like, there have you seen, there's the poster where it's like, it's just her on this like dirty basement bed. And yeah.
01:15:07
Speaker
And there's also blown out. Right. Right. Yeah. Like, like that, that, that aesthetic it's provocative. It's creepy. And ah because it's just an image, you don't really have to like,
01:15:20
Speaker
reckon with any of like what you're actually it's just a promise of something that's what a poster is you know of like the movie will will the movie is going to deliver on what we're showing you on this poster don't worry and then the movie comes out every movie do it and the movie's like oh that's oh it's it's bad right when they do stuff to women i guess yeah the movie does not have
01:15:47
Speaker
like it it oh It has no perspective on how to even broach that kind of subject, right? And the thing that you're describing about these posters, there's more thought and care put into, like, how to sell this movie than to actually, like, rectify with those themes, right? Like, even something like Don't Breathe, right? Where you get the, like,
01:16:05
Speaker
whole plot development where it's like this blind man's gonna put a turkey baster of people right like yeah that that movie is gross as well right i don't think that it sticks landing and how it does those things either but it takes more time to at least administer that information it at least tries to get the audience to comprehend this thing in a meaningful way but the this but and it's fully aware that by that point and for the rest of the movie that you're we're in schlock territory it's not trying to be like this is serious i mean it's it's it you know it i i'm not saying it's like doing a full-on like horror comedy of rape or anything but it is it's it's not being like that this is like yeah this is serious we need to have our conversation movie but i don't even know that shelby oaks is doing that it's just avoiding any conversation whatsoever because it's like the
01:16:56
Speaker
talked about how quick the investigation parts of this movie are it's like how quickly they get out of that basement because it's like we don't really have any answers for like yes we get put together like what was happening we saw we saw the scrapbook so you know but my my all my questions have been answered in that regard but the it does the movie doesn't have any answer to it thematically or emotionally in regards to like it's They just guy got to get out this basement. It's like, it's time to go.
01:17:31
Speaker
but yeah it bill Well, like, there's this, ah like, but the thing is, is they show this thing, and it's, again, the classic thing where they come up with this idea, but they don't really have any way to comment upon it, so they just rush through it, right? It's just there for the sake of shocking the audience.
01:17:47
Speaker
And that's where i I call this movie misogynistic. I think that it it is dealing in this, you know idea of real woman trauma, you know, something like this does happen, right? Like, in real life.
01:17:59
Speaker
The problem is that it just doesn't really... try to handle these things and anything that's thoughtful beyond this whole hereditary Zodiac riff and when we do get the whole like you know they're in the attic or whatever and there's this whole like ritual that's going on with this woman and she like slits her wrist and And it's even framed like an Arias movie where it's like purely symmetrical all of a sudden.
01:18:23
Speaker
It's like, why is the visual language kind of changing now to meet this moment rather than, i you know, playing in the... Is there anything happening here to justify that visual change? And answer is no.
01:18:35
Speaker
and it's like, but There's lots of horror these days that deal with this this topic it it to varying degrees, but I would say like almost all of them are better than Shelby Oaks on this. be like but ah you know can reflect the times and the fact that there's lots of horror dealing with unwanted demonic pregnancies that women are forced to carry to term is like, that make makes sense that that's in the zeitgeist. Yeah.
01:19:03
Speaker
ah But it's like even it's something like that's like from a large larger property like First Omen has like more to say on the subject than than this movie.
01:19:17
Speaker
yeah even Cindy Sweeney's Immaculate, you know, like right that film was all about that. Right. And, and like she's turned out to be a conservative, right. The fact that that was like such a pro abortion film in that way.
01:19:29
Speaker
Right. And with this movie, like you, you have like the final sequence stuff that jumped too far ahead, but I feel like there's not much, there's not much to jump ahead of because it's like, it's so, it's so compressed in the movie already. Cause it's like, he goes from the jail, she's been a dog.
01:19:46
Speaker
the dog makes her follow to the house. And then it's like, your sister's there. There's like, no, I've, and I'm not one of those, you know, I'm not, not a plot cell where I'm like, this needs to all add up and and be realistic in terms of the investigation make sense terms of that you can do full on dream logic. And she just wanders into the,
01:20:06
Speaker
these revelations, but then play it that way fully and like utilize that instead of it just feeling kind of hackneyed that it's like, like, Oh, okay. So she, she just like, it just led her here. Okay. Yeah.
01:20:22
Speaker
yeah well The problem with this movie is that it is so plot cell, as you put it, right? Like this movie is more obsessed with hitting those beats of what a traditional story should hit that you don't really get the sustained terror of these beats. You don't have any character, right?
01:20:36
Speaker
And it's also going into this larger problem where it's like this whole movie is an hour worth of a horror movie rather than the full 20 minutes because it's decided to throw that found footage element at the front, right? Right.
01:20:47
Speaker
but we When we get to this, like, uh, epilogue when she's saved uh her sister as well as the child that she had with this uh demon slash the person uh that had kidnapped her which is like really gross you know like just that that concept and it's like oh we're just gonna raise the kid and it's like i never was able to be a mother and now i can be a mother by proxy to this child i thought that that was gross just per And the fact that she made that decision with like her sister at that point is like catatonic pretty much. And it's like not good, not consenting to that idea of like, let's bring this child home. Like that. Maybe put it up for adoption.
01:21:30
Speaker
yeah and Maybe, maybe she doesn't want anything to do with that baby. You know, it's like, is it even if there's no demonic element, it's like, yeah, it's not the baby's fault where it came, where it came from. But it's like,
01:21:42
Speaker
do You guys don't have to be the ones to raise it. There's, you know, if you need a baby that bad, there's lots of... There's always baby. Will it be? Yeah. I can get you a baby by Tuesday, you know? well its I can get you a baby by the end of the day if you need the one that bad. There's people.
01:22:01
Speaker
You give me the money and we'll start it out, right? like you You're right. There are people. It's not not people you want to talk to, but there are people. ah but you the The boss, my boss from Thief, you know, just give him some money. And he'll he's like, yeah, I guess I can. You want a Chinese baby? Here you go.
01:22:15
Speaker
I own.
01:22:18
Speaker
yeah well the the problem is is that it is the selfish desire from the older sister to want to be a mother and that itself is interesting but then like there's this sequence the movie never presents her as selfish though or where it's like i think there is something interesting in the person in the i because like you do get those hints in the beginning of like yeah she's like foregone her even if you know the husband's still technically there at the beginning it's like the marriage has been she gave up on that a while ago in the pursuit of this and that i'm not saying that's inherently selfish you know like it's reasonable to grieve and like be want to know a have answers to like where you're what's happened to your sister especially in those those circumstances but then to see how it progresses like
01:23:07
Speaker
the movie never does anything with like, yes, this obsession, she went too far with it or anything, because with the ending of the end point of where we're getting to, if we're going to be plot cells about it, maybe you should be seeing that she's kind of bad, you know, like if the the whole end thing is like, ah, that even wanted her. It's like, okay, well, then maybe we should be feeling her, if not doing outright demonic things that, you know, that that's,
01:23:35
Speaker
du i I don't even know what this demon seasoner basically is my... Well, like, before we even get into that, like, demon at the very end, right? Like, I really hate this sequence where we're meant to, like, we're we're on pins and needles about her trying to kill this baby, like, the the sister who's discovered.
01:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. Because, like, how are we supposed to feel in this moment? We're supposed to be like, okay, we know that this is the spawn of Satan. We know that, like, she was raped to have this child, right? Like, don't mean to sound crazy, but at the same time, it's like... I'm like, as soon she...
01:24:13
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, she should kill that baby. Like, I was like, you shouldn't have taken that baby home once, and then so you did. And I'm like, what'd you expect? to Yeah, of course she's going to try and kill it. She tried to kill it in the attic. And, you know, she got, like, force thrown or something. oh But she had, like, a fire poker. she was That was for the baby. yeah That wasn't for the the demon mom. That was that was for the baby.
01:24:35
Speaker
Yeah. It's crazy, you know? Like, why would you just assume that you want to sleep in the same room as her, you know? In the same room. It's insane. that Like, okay, you're baby crazy.
01:24:47
Speaker
Keep it in your room. Why why is the why is it in her room? Show it to the husband. He'll be ecstatic. You know, he'll he'll hell will he will sleep with the baby in the same room. You know, he's fine with You know, he he wants to have a child.
01:25:01
Speaker
This is what he's wanting. The problem is that like we're <unk>re put in this position where we're meant root for this baby killing. And it's like, I don't want to be in this position to root for a baby killing, Chris Duckman.
01:25:12
Speaker
You've put me here because like you think this is dramatically compelling, right? And it's like, I feel like there are movies that have played with this idea before. But usually, like, in the Omen, we... he The original, but also the first one. But the original...
01:25:26
Speaker
the way it's played, it's not the very, like, final shot. Like, Davian seems pretty normal. Like, the stuff around him is fucked up. But, like, he seems like a pretty normal... Even when he goes crazy when they're trying to take him to church, I'm like, hey, i didn't want to go to fucking church as a kid. I would be screaming, too. So, like, he was like, this seems all, like, normal kid stuff. And so, like, the dilemma of this, like, Gregory Peck being like, do I have to kill this kid?
01:25:50
Speaker
And I'm like, Yeah. Is there another solution? Cause I have seen all, but he hasn't seen like the pure evil. So but like, is there another poll solution?
01:26:01
Speaker
but when When you just like are having shots of just like an innocent child just like in your crib and you've got like the person that you've been opining for this entire movie with like a pillow going up towards them. I'm just like you you are just seeing your characters and your themes as pawns.
01:26:18
Speaker
We're not seeing them as things that people are supposed to feel. Right. Right. Well, because we've given no characterization to Riley, right? Other than we have those videos, but that's like mainly like how the sister is viewing the memory of her sister. And it's like that Riley as a character, don't know anything about her other than that she was held captive and raped for number of years and had a demon baby about it.
01:26:44
Speaker
And had demon baby about it. Like, but so i I, yeah, I like other than in the abstract where like, that baby's evil. Yeah, of course it has to go. that i Again, like, what am I, am I supposed to be feeling anything here?
01:26:59
Speaker
It's like, i if I am, then you maybe need to do the work there to get me there. And and then if we're going to talk about this in the realm that Chris Stuckman had thought this stuff through really well, like, I'm just going to take what happens in the end, because then there's there's this idea that, like, she saves her sister ah from this rape dungeon, and then she doesn't recognize who she was, because she's changed over this 20 years, right?
01:27:25
Speaker
And her eyes, she's like, how could you do such a thing? And that's what leads to this scuff, right? and And again, bringing it back to, like, Stuckman's influence, like, reason for making the story right this idea of like oh reconnecting with my sister haven't spoken to in a while to like you know and now you're completely different people like that that yeah you don't you don't recognize each but that's the movie that's that's the thing he wants to express the problem is that he he is putting it in this like life or death way that's so extreme and so tasteless
01:27:58
Speaker
That it's like, why, why did you express yourself in this way? You could have had a more contemplative, a more, you know, like interesting take on this. Instead, it's like, yeah, she's going to kill the baby. And of course she's going to kill her sister because she's to kill the baby, you know? And it's like, why?
01:28:14
Speaker
Come on, let's not do this, man. And the fact that it's like, oh the window, the window's like open too, right? Yeah, like part of it. ah but We've had all these like... She just pops We've had all these ghost stories about, yeah, there's like a demon outside her window since she was a kid.
01:28:30
Speaker
And it's just like, all right, well, back to your childhood room where the the demon used to peep on you with with your demon baby. all right, I'm sure enough, you'll be fine. I'm just going to leave you alone up here.
01:28:42
Speaker
with With the broken thing in the window, like it's yeahs all these... You know, like, I feel like we've but we've been focusing on the plot a lot of this in the third act specifically. Main reason being is that like the movie kind of invites it, you know, like the movie doesn't really think these things through.
01:28:59
Speaker
And when you don't have much to hold on to in terms of character, in terms of themes, in terms of anything beneath the surface, you're you're grabbing at what you can. And I feel like I'm like, you know, like I'm at a shipwreck, you know, and I'm in the water and I'm holding on to whatever pieces of plywood I can.
01:29:16
Speaker
And then the plywood, it turns out are covered like ants or something. i like, oh, I don't want hold on to plywood filled with ants. you know like that's what this movie feels like yeah especially by this end because it goes so fast to like when they go home but from the cabin i i almost expect that there's going to be a whole nother act because i you know i'm not clocking looking at my phone during the movie even one is you know jumbled as this and i'm just kind of like vibing out the act breaks of like when they are sometimes i will be curious of like a lot
01:29:49
Speaker
wow, they're going to wrap it up in that much time. All right. ah But ah I was just kind of guessing just based on the flow of the story. but I was like, oh, is there going to be a secret, like a fourth act here where James Cameron's style or to do a whole nother act where it's like, now what's the fallout of this? And it's like, no, not really. It's like, it's barely even an epilogue because we got like speed run through this. And it's like, if that was the emotional impetus, was that idea, then it's,
01:30:17
Speaker
Maybe we should start there. I don't know.
01:30:21
Speaker
Or get there and his much sooner. And this is what I don't get when I see that people like like this movie or like appreciate what it's doing in quotations. What is it doing? What is it saying? What is it?
01:30:32
Speaker
but Exactly. Like what what is the purpose of this for the audience? You know, like what are we supposed to take away from this? Because like everything that we are inferring into it it is is pretty selfish and pretty like surface level in terms of like a worldview you know and uh when it comes to like artists that we should like you know celebrate uplift you know like really give applause to right i don't believe in participation trophies when they're this sloppy you know like i don't believe and just kind of being like you know we'll give this one a pass because we like this guy you know but when i see people who are kind of going like easy on this movie i'm like
01:31:13
Speaker
I don't know, man. Like, I feel like, I feel like your light of him you should maybe be like hoping. the ah Like, I feel like if I was actually a fan, I'd be even more disappointed because I would then be like, well, why?
01:31:26
Speaker
Man, you had so much promise. Why couldn't you deliver on like the stuff that I like, but like are are really, are the fans of this ARG really finding other than the actual footage from that?
01:31:38
Speaker
Like what from that are they seeing in this that they're like resonating with other than like, it's the guy who needs to tell you right now. I can tell you right now. I knew about the ARG before this movie was being produced. Right. Like I am that deep on this. Right.
01:31:52
Speaker
and The thing is, is that like the, there, there is like what you watched it yourself. You saw in this movie. the original videos themselves don't really feel of a piece with the third act of this movie.
01:32:07
Speaker
The third act of this movie is something completely different and it's purposely that way. And the problem is that like what was there originally was not broken. There's a reason why it's persisted for these many years. so The Nightmare video that you see at the beginning of this movie was not made for this movie. It was made...
01:32:26
Speaker
to analyze paranormal paranoids right that right things persist right and they have meaning when they are originally made these ARGs and and like I said at the top of this review I have no problems with Chris Stuckman you know taking his own identity and taking his own perspective on this original story my problem is that if you have nothing else to add if you if you just kind of making like the slender man movie again Like, there's no reason for us to do this.
01:32:54
Speaker
There's no reason for us to be here. Well, because it's like either... you just lack the imagination to go further, or you're purposely trying to make it like kind of dull and more palatable, which is maybe more offensive where it's like, no, go, just go for it. Then be you like, don't like, but ah you know, and I, I'm, I'm projecting, like, I don't actually know if they use like, yeah, I need to make this the most the digestible version of my thing. But it seems like this, it,
01:33:27
Speaker
he has commercial intent maybe what commercial intents with any movie they make but the the the he especially employed right that that but this especially like you said is like a calling card in film form so I can't help but think that where he's like having thoughts where it's like well yes I could do this this or that or that might be like like is that too out there for like what like general like I need this to be like and I need this to play for like you know the cheap seats his favorite movies are like, you know, Denny Villeneuve, you know, like very, very middle brown, you know, and I'm not saying that in a derivative sense. Right. Like I like Denny Villeneuve movies, but it's like, the absolutely.
01:34:12
Speaker
I don't even know if the middle brow or DVD cheap seats were, I was, you know, I tried to kind of take the temperature of the theater that I was, it was Friday night or Thursday night, whenever I saw it. So there's decent amount of people there, but and I kind of just felt like by the end, some people were just like, Oh, okay.
01:34:30
Speaker
You know, like, I don't know that, I don't know that the, the people are walking out. Like there were people who like stayed even when the credits were playing. I was like, you guys know something I don't? Is there like,
01:34:42
Speaker
like nick Nick Fury shows up at the end or something. but Chris Duckman appears and he's like, yeah, there's a second Shelby Oaks, you know, like another town beneath the town. so and town beneath the town I saw this movie on opening day like you.
01:34:58
Speaker
ah There was only three other people in the theater with me. There was a couple and then there was another guy who was by themselves, you know, zero reaction throughout the entire film. could hear a pin drop. Right. and And then when the ending happened, most my audience reacted was the old lady in like laughing when she kept offering like some stale food or something. I was like, yeah, because though that that lady was fun. But like there's what else are you going react to?
01:35:25
Speaker
when When the ending happened and you see like the sister fly out the window, at that point, I just lost all hope. I was just cackling in the theater. I was the only one who was just like sitting there laughing.
01:35:35
Speaker
And I was like, you know what? I'm going to let myself enjoy this. And also on the note that you were saying about like timing, you know, like being ah being ah aware of how much time is left in a film, right?
01:35:46
Speaker
i i I did a movie double feature that day. You know, I i watched Frankenstein and then I watched ah Shelby Oaks. And Frankenstein, Del Toro's Frankenstein, that's a two and a half hour film.
01:35:58
Speaker
ah There was one time I checked the watch and when I checked the watch, I was like, oh, there's like 30 minutes left and it feels like there's like another hour's worth of movie left in this. I'm surprised. OK, let's see what happens. so Like it was it was like a pleasant surprise that it was that I was
YouTubers Transitioning to Filmmaking
01:36:13
Speaker
almost at the end of it. And I had no idea that it had breezed through, you know, my own problems with that movie.
01:36:18
Speaker
ah with Shelby Oaks, it's like, I checked the watch and it was close to the end. It was like 10 minutes. And I'm like, no movies happened yet. Yeah. I laughed to myself because i was like, seriously, it's going to, it's it's going to be dumb soon. Like I was like, you did nothing, you know? And that's the problem is that because it is so built around like what the next one is, you know? That's, that's why I said that I don't really care about participation trophies here. Is that like, you know, like,
01:36:48
Speaker
I'm not giving all credit for your theoretical next movie. Like if it's good, I'll see it. Like I want it to be good. You'd make a good movie and I will enjoy it. Like that's that's fulfill that part of the contract that I'm happy. But like but but I is as as for like you.
01:37:05
Speaker
What am supposed to do with that information with the it in the abstract? Like, yeah, I i can make good movie, you know, and it's like, OK, I would like to see that.
01:37:17
Speaker
The problem is like Mike Flanagan's names all over this neon had its backing, you know, it's going to make its much budget back pretty quick. If not, anything right. Like it's it like, the thing is that this is going to do well, but it it is probably already done. Well, it's probably ah like on the Saturday that we're recording it is probably already made its budget back just in terms of how many theaters playing in and the advertisement that it's got.
01:37:42
Speaker
The thing is, is that like Chris Stuckman as a filmmaker, it's like, It's done. And it was done the moment that he, like, got that initial, like, help when it happened, right?
01:37:52
Speaker
So the thing is, for us as people who are watching these movies, you know, like, ah there's no reason for us to feel any kind of solidarity in terms of, like... he Right, where he's not, like, the little indie filmmaker that could now, where it's like, no, he did. He's in. Like, so...
01:38:11
Speaker
like so And that was that way before this movie like finished. Like, right. Like the outcome of this film didn't matter. Like the all, like the process of him making this movie was enough for whatever is coming next.
01:38:26
Speaker
Right. And, and for me, it's like, it's a tough place because it's like, well, I understand and sympathize with, you know, this thing of like, you know, this guy who came out of nowhere were to make sure that he did these things. I admire that.
01:38:37
Speaker
But then I also look at the guys who did talk to me and and bring her back. And it's like, Those blow this out of the water. like i mean, I know some people have issues with ah some of those movies, but I'm like, yeah, regardless of what you think of those those, like you said, those are movies, and those are visceral, emotional experiences that have, there's like arcs and shit, and then be care to theres characters change, it go through a change, and a story that makes you feel things happen, like that's what they call movies. their style you know like there's a perspective right and and and i don't even like uh the second one what was the bring her back a bring her back
01:39:21
Speaker
yeah i i read that movie i think that that movie was had a similar problem to this one where it's like it played with some ideas that i don't think it had the perspective necessary to deliver on but then i think about a movie like talk to me where it's like that was perfectly representative of who these guys are and what they their thing is is it's like i don't think that there is a problem with people making like in quotations youtube critic turned uh yeah or YouTuber turned filmmaker.
01:39:46
Speaker
There are some people who toss that off entirely, right? i mean, that's going to be the pipeline going forward. Like, that's the people, should get used to that. Like, that that's like, where else are ah yeah upcoming filmmakers going to cut their teeth? Like, regardless of, ah like,
01:40:02
Speaker
Middle school is already like stupidly expensive. I think less and less people are going to be going for the higher education route of like, yeah, I went came from USC and now I, you know, make films. It's like, no, it's people are be who cut their teeth just like grinding and making shit and just going out there making shit. And then like, where else, where do people put their stuff when they just go out there and make it's YouTube?
01:40:25
Speaker
Well, it's not even grinding. It's about eyeballs, right? Like I saw an article the other day where it's like fan cam editors are being hired to make trailers for movies, right? And it's like... saw that. I got so jealous. I'm like, man, fucking... You guys got to see my Gangster's Paradise Bram Stoker's Dracula edit. If hire me... You've got to see my Tyler the Creator Beamer paired with Crash.
01:40:49
Speaker
You know, like I love a good Crash. Which Crash, the good one or... and The Cronenberg, not the Graciela. Okay, race okay. I was like, are a you going to you put that to Sandra Bullock falling down the street?
01:41:00
Speaker
Just a story. Bring it over and over again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The earthquake got her. ah No, the problem is that with ah with this movie is that, like like, I feel like there are people who are giving it this easy pass.
01:41:17
Speaker
And and again um I don't mean to say this. to be too rude but it's like I feel like it's very privileged I feel like Chris Stuckman is in a place of privilege in the sense that like it's already a done deal in this movie is more of a formality and and like there's no consideration to the art here there's no consideration for the craft here from like a love of filmmaking and And going back to like, you know, Stuckman's personality, it's like he was just like the most popular critic, right?
01:41:47
Speaker
He wasn't the most insightful critic. He wasn't like the most, you know, thoughtful critic. He was just somebody who built the niche really well and spoke to like the the median really well.
01:41:58
Speaker
Right. And that's kind of what this movie is, is where it's like, it's just like kind of riding the line of, what it really should be it's like that's not what i watch movies for i watch movies for like somebody trying to take a big swing and missing or maybe hitting you know like right el torres frankenstein like i was just bringing up before i don't think that we is entirely successful but i think that del torre really cared about it and you'd really tell and it's like i would much rather have a movie that feels like the purpose for existing matters more than the opportunity for the next paycheck and
01:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's ultimately what this amounts to because like a hearing about the personal factors that motivated him to make this were like, I'm like, so why is the movie like this then? Because it's like, that sounds like something that like be being a Jehovah's Witness and getting out and then like the reconnecting with your sister is years later.
01:42:54
Speaker
Like that that sounds like a pretty good impetus, like that sounds like a movie, you know? And then what we got doesn't so there's a big disconnect you know it's just like a demo reel that we got the demo reel that has some some pretty parts and like as ever it does what he wants it to do i guess so i i i yeah i guess he's like you said it's done deal for him so he must be happy so that's great great job chris you you said demo reel, right? And it's important to bring up, like, he was signed to Channel Awesome, right?
01:43:28
Speaker
and and And, like, this is truly the first person from Channel Awesome to make, like, a real movie, right? And, like, but only probably ever, right and you're right? And it really does feel like it, right? This feels like it was born from, like, that culture of existing within multiple layers of pre-existing pop culture.
01:43:50
Speaker
And it's interesting in the sense that it's a ref fraction of a refer or refraction of refraction of a refraction. The problem is that it's not interesting to watch. It's bad.
01:44:01
Speaker
There are other horror movies out in theaters right now that are worth your time. And like, if you're a fan of Chris Stuckman or, you know, like you're a fan of his spirit, like, I feel like the most insulting thing you could do is say that this is better than what it is.
01:44:16
Speaker
You know, like, like, right. yeah like like like you Like you should ask for more. but like, if if we just kind of like, you know, do the seal thing, whenever people put in the bare minimum, it's like, you know, like it's a slap in the face. The horror is a genre.
01:44:31
Speaker
Right. I like yeah um I don't I always feel apprehensive to hate on this movie, but i truly, really hate this movie. I hate this movie.
01:44:43
Speaker
i a I'm not even at the hate, I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. that That's where I'm at, where it's like, without even the the the personal relation to too Stuckman, it's like,
01:44:55
Speaker
man, you had elements like in like even hearing the opportunity, like you have the means you have within the actual story you're doing with, you have these sets and these visuals and these elements that could amount to something pretty cool.
01:45:12
Speaker
And, and you, don't you just either are missing that or are intentionally choosing to not do that. So like, it that's frustrating where it's like, especially if you're like, are you being boring on purpose? Don't do that.
01:45:27
Speaker
Yeah. Like, it like it's it's this whole party thing for me, right? Where it's like he threw a party, and it's like a really shitty party. and and And he's just telling you that he's going to throw a ah better party next week. And it's like, do I want to go to the party next week?
01:45:43
Speaker
Like, after this party, you know? Okay, but that party has the 100% round to me. It's like a score. it Are they trying to do the whole, like, this thing is...
01:45:54
Speaker
rated so well i i don't think they did because i i don't think it is so i don't think they can do that uh well i i found it right here so what do you look okay so i want you to take guess what is the critic score and what is the audience score of this movie um 60 critics audience 57 fifty seven All right, so you kind of flipped it there, okay? So it was a 59 for the critics, and it was a 63 for the audience, right?
01:46:25
Speaker
Audience a little more vibing with it. Yeah. but one One thing I will say is, like, I honestly thought there the audience was going to be a bit more than that, you know? But I am glad... Because this feels like it is trying to play to the... Like you said, like, to the media. have Like, like like this this is what horror movies are. This is the formula. This is what you guys...
01:46:45
Speaker
This is why you guys like those conjuring things, right? Like that it feels like what this movie is of like, okay, we know what you want. Here you go. he He used to do letter grades on his YouTube channel, and he made a C movie.
01:47:00
Speaker
He made a C movie, not a B movie, not an A movie, but a C movie where it's like, you know, it is just passing the media. Right. And it's like, yeah, C's do get degrees. I've heard people like C's get degrees. It's like, yeah, but you should be going for more than the bare minimum.
01:47:18
Speaker
But it's like C's get degrees. Sure. Right. But who has to fucking read the fucking thesis? Who has to fucking, you know, read read the degree of the thing that gets the degree or it's the fucking professor. And if they're going to fucking read a bunch of C's all day, they're going to want to tear their eyes out. Right.
01:47:35
Speaker
don't want to read a lot of C's. I don't want to either. You know, I've seen a million C's. And when I'm watching a movie directed by somebody who I've known about for decades at this point, and they're just kind of, you know, doing nothing. I don't want to see a C. I want to see something more than that, you know?
01:47:54
Speaker
And that shouldn't be too much to ask for, considering, you like, they promised so much, you know? Something else you didn't know about, about Chris Beckman. He's pretty ungodly. ah famous for like doing a rewrite on Batman versus Superman where he talked about like like he essentially was like trying to like better it and the problem was that like when he shared his nailed it everyone made fun of him because it sucked you know oh the so it would it wasn't and it none of his stuff was in what we saw hold on let me see if I can find what he wrote
01:48:30
Speaker
this just i if we If we could give him credit for Martha, I'm like, okay, well, you did you did stumble upon that if that was him, but I don't think it was.
01:48:45
Speaker
No, no, this this is, hold on, I want to see if the line specific, there's like some line about Zod's snap neck, this thing that's like really funny.
01:48:58
Speaker
Like it's it's clearly like somebody who doesn't know anything about writing as a concept. You know, like I'm not finding it right now. I'm not going to dwell on this too much. But the the the thing is, is that yeah he is somebody who like doesn't really have a fully fleshed perspective.
01:49:15
Speaker
and i And I want him to like, I think that he, you know, he has the passion for it. The problem is that he's not like a del Toro in the sense where it's like del Toro. yeah He may not connect on the human stuff every time, but his passion and his research within these topics, at least give them the, you know, bare minimum where it's a worthy entry within the thing that he's doing.
01:49:38
Speaker
Right. And it's, it's, this is the promise of I will do a thing. But right now there isn't really ah like, if like, not that every new filmmaker needs to arrive fully formed, but it doesn't even seem like he's working. Like, if I'm like, what is a Stuckman movie?
01:49:56
Speaker
You know, like, what is the signature thing like is there is there like a thematic through line or or like the visual thing in in it's right now it if i just based on the one movie it's just like okay well guy who has seen fincher movies like that that is what is that is there a thing beyond that i don't like I don't even know what kind of movie he makes after this.
01:50:21
Speaker
you know like Is it a horror movie? yeah I feel like he has no real allegiance to genre or tone or topic at this point from a filmmaking standpoint. like if he makes a rom-com hey i'm ready you know but yeah one of the few one of his few like publicly available for you shelby oaks films is he did like a a recreation of the movie drive with him in the like protagonist seat you know oh my god that sounds great just gotta say like like like that that's the kind of level we're operating on okay like like that that's the person he is right right
01:50:59
Speaker
I'm not too inspired about where he's going from this. And it's a shame because i think that we both recognize that there are glimpses of something here. yeah it's it's It's why we're not like donkey on him. You know, like i feel like he could do something one day that's at least past beyond a sea.
01:51:17
Speaker
You know, it's it's just a shame. Yeah, it would be like, like I said, if it's good, I'll see it, but I'm not going to get hyped on just the theoretical promise of ah of ah of a better movie. There is there is competency on on display here. Like I'll give him the the props for that. So it's like he he knows some basic things of like how to create an image, but it's the reason that images from other horror movies persist is because it's kind of all about content. Like, what are you doing with that image? You know, and like what's in service of.
01:51:52
Speaker
So this is where I activate the trap card, right? So like, is Chris Stuckman everything that's wrong with the modern film industry in the sense that like, there is nothing earned about this, right?
01:52:04
Speaker
All he has is the reputation that he has online, right? right All the only reason that we're talking about him in this way is because of his already afforded to um prestige in making these youtube videos for however long right the reality is it's like does that translate any kind of real clout in terms of like being a storyteller and should we be allowing for him to get these chances when we could you know just fund, you know, other filmmakers, you know, Don Waters hasn't made movies. long Right. Don Salons hasn't made a lot movie in a long time.
01:52:40
Speaker
Why should we be giving our time and attention to Chris Stuckman and the promise of him being a better filmmaker in the future? when he has no real perspective. And in the flip side, it's like how many people out there are dying to tell a story who don't get these kinds of ah opportunities because they can't draw on these ah perspectives because they're not just, you know, a milk toast person who likes the nice guys.
01:53:04
Speaker
Yeah. My counterpoint for that is mainly ah if they keep mining influencers and internet personalities to become the next generation of filmmakers, maybe eventually I'll be popular enough that they'll give me the opportunity. So so I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, that's great. I'm guilty.
01:53:26
Speaker
Keep going. All right. Give me money. but i can make a good for it. No, I mean, I think, like like I said before, the idea of YouTuber to Filmmaker Pipeline is, it's ah you know, it's kind of ah a nice that it's a nice idea, but we've seen better versions of that, you know, like like the the ah Bring Her Back guys. So it's like,
01:53:55
Speaker
i I don't need to settle for this just because it's like, oh, what inspiring opportunity. It's like, is it inspiring? It's inspiring. Really? of Like, yes, please, someone give me that shot.
01:54:09
Speaker
You know, but this is like watching somebody take a shit in the middle of the room and being like, well, they really evacuated their bowels in like an efficient way. You know, like they didn't even need to wipe that many times when they were done. They must be a lot of fiber. Oh, that's good. Yeah. like like it's like what are you talking about they took a shit in the room you know like it stinks in here like why are we talking about this you know like that's what Shelby Oaks is like that's why it's shitty Oaks yeah yeah I it's that's the I did find like Cameron Jackson's 2024 list but what was the movie we were talking about that we thought that would be on there
01:54:51
Speaker
Oh, that I thought wouldn't be on there was I Saw the TV Glow. Yeah, that's right. You're right. Okay, so I'm going to look through it right now. I'm going to see if it's on here. This is a top 25 list. Oh, God. Okay.
01:55:03
Speaker
I Saw the TV Glow is at number 19. and and And I'm only going to say this because it's ah it's the movie that's right above it. Oh, okay, no. So i had I got to do a couple that are above I Saw the Zeddy Glow.
01:55:14
Speaker
So the movie that's right above I Saw the Zeddy Glow is I Am Celine Dion, the prime video documentary series about Celine Dion. And okay the movie that's above that is Transformers 1, the animated Transformers film. but Twitter users never stop talking about.
01:55:33
Speaker
So those those are the the at least those two movies that are better than that. The number one movie is September 5th, the movie about the Olympics when there was the the Israeli hostage. Yeah, I know what it is. original Me it's the yeah mean and Nick walked out of it because we went to, ah you know, blockchain's do like mystery movie Monday. They'll give you a clue like...
01:55:56
Speaker
of like of of John they might give you like the rating and like genre or something I think this one just said r rated and Kraven the hunter was about to come out and we're like well Kraven's rated R maybe this is Kraven in some Kraven yeah like yeah it's gonna be so that should be some good dumb fun let's go see craven and then it this ends up being september fire like are you fucking kidding yeah we should we just left like that is not we came for schlock and that's not uh that wasn't gonna fulfill that need i remember i was like there was a friend of mine who had to watch the movie for like a review and i was just like how did you like that and she was just like
01:56:37
Speaker
and I saw it. was like, what did think? She's just like, I saw it. Look at one of those guys' face. The whole time, i like, we sat there for a few bit minutes, like, one, just in disbelief, but then we were kind of weighing the pros and cons. Like, should we just stay?
01:56:56
Speaker
But then we were, like... Munich exists, you know, if we wanted to watch a movie about, that not that we were in the mood for that, but it was like, if we really wanted to see something about this, there's a Steven, don't know if you remember, Steven Spielberg made a movie about it.
01:57:15
Speaker
so it's kind of but best movies. Like, yeah, it's just like, I just maybe just don't need this. And then we left. So let's do. Let's get where Jackson was like, best movie of the year.
01:57:28
Speaker
And see, that's such a take where I'm like that interesting mind, I guess. But also if he's a right wing fuckhead, then also fuck him. But ah he also had Problemista at number four, which is kind of based if you've ever seen Problemista. That was in my and what it was like right at 10, I think was like it nearly got into my top. I fucking love Problemista.
01:57:55
Speaker
It's a really good movie. Shout out the phrase that. ah But it's weird. He has that. And I saw the TV glow with it also. It's like, yeah, people are multiple to contain multitudes. That's interesting.
01:58:10
Speaker
Like his, his whole, like, I gotta say, like he's, this whole list is littered with those like streaming documentaries about famous people. Like his number 10 is Jim Henson idea, man.
01:58:22
Speaker
ah Number six is music by John Williams. Like he is just a real sucker for just a Gloria Gaynor. Like another one, like, you know, like he's just right.
01:58:33
Speaker
And I'm sure some of those aren't, I'm sure some of those are good. Like the Jim Henson one I've heard was, was if I'm thinking of the, that the same thing, I'm like, I think that's supposed to be pretty, pretty solid, but it's like those, if that's like most of your top list littered with that, that's yeah. don't know. it kind of just shows like a ah in curious mind or not art minded mind. And the advise is very it's just like you more consumer than art focused. Yeah.
01:59:02
Speaker
Well, what spells great movie? Like great people. Right. And that's just what those are. It's just like great people. Right. Yeah. and And when I'm watching Shelby Oaks, to bring it back to that, it's like ah it's like great movies that you're being reminded of. It's like I could be watching Hereditary. I could be watching Zodiac.
01:59:22
Speaker
Why am I not? Right. And then I could watching find an empty man right now. What the fuck? You brought up Empty Man. I'd also say that Weapons, like this movie is kind of doing a lot of the same things that Weapons was trying to do.
01:59:34
Speaker
And my problem is like Weapons is like a generational film. Like why would I want to watch Shelby Oaks when Weapons feels like it's going to be something that's like going to resonate for decades, you know, like, and it talks about the same things in way better ways, more mature ways. It is more unique and personal feeling way. It's like that is a movie.
01:59:58
Speaker
Like you could draw a lot of different directions. You can go off in terms like what it's about, but but you can, you feel like, that where the that like the pain, the real pain of like Zach Greger's loss and what he was going through when he wrote that, that that's in that movie.
02:00:17
Speaker
It's like, i what am I feeling in Shelby Oaks? It's more it's more of like the mental exercise of him showing me like what he can do.
02:00:28
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, all right. That's cool, I guess. ah What do you want me to do with that information? You had to ask me ah about Chris Stuckman at the beginning of this podcast, right?
02:00:41
Speaker
If you, if this movie was successful, you would kind of have an idea of who Christmas Stuckman was. That's right. That's what I'm saying. that I'm like, this does it of like, well, like what is this the Stuckman feel like? of the Even the promise of the theoretical good second movie. It's like, I don't know what that looks like because I don't know what he's about really other than,
02:01:04
Speaker
He's, he's, he's seen some movies that are much better than his. Like, yeah, I don't know. he he may have watched the Gaspar Noé movie, which like seems like he's punching out of his weight class a bit, you know, in terms of the other things that he's referencing here, you know, like the, like the, the, the best praise you can give him is like the types of movies that he's watching. And when you're looking at the most of the movies that referenced, it's like, these are things that are in like the lead letterbox, like top 250, if not top 100.
02:01:35
Speaker
So it's like, you know, like there's, there's little for me to, you know, Give credit to I this movie is going to make me irrationally mad for a long time. And I feel like i I'm going to just pick this people off in terms of just like how this movie is going to linger in my mind and how upsetting it is.
02:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'm less mad at the movie and more so the phenomenon you talked about of the fandom. But it's like it like, I guess that's inevitable of anything that becomes too popular. But it's like, oh, that's, it's not just brands or franchises.
02:02:07
Speaker
like specific people too can now just have that cult mentality where it's like... Yeah, no, this is like a part of my personality, my appreciation for him. So i if you criticize him, you're now attacking me and this is, the it's war.
02:02:25
Speaker
It's like, oh, I don't know. Maybe make something better the course of your personality. You know, like when when people go after like Robert Eggers or like Aster as secret hacks, you know, who don't who don't deserve the positions they have, it's like,
02:02:45
Speaker
It could be a bunch of Chris Duckmans. It could be a bunch of Chris Duckmans who have no idea what they could be doing. Chris Duckman is what people get mad at Oz Perkins. I mean, but i don't I don't think Chris Duckman is going to be putting out movies as quickly as Oz, but the fact that people get so, is the another Oz Perkins? Oh, how dare he?
02:03:05
Speaker
You know, when people get out of how dare he make multiple movies back to back? Like how, how dare he just give us things? That was the way things used to be here. The studio system, you know, like yeah there used to be like multiple movies by fucking ah Curtis, the guy who made ah Michael Curtiz, who made Casa Blanca, right? It's like, yeah. Within the time. Why are you upset?
02:03:26
Speaker
Exactly. Like, why are you upset? You know, like that. And his movies always make a profit. So it's like, yeah, they're going to let him keep doing that. That's like, That's smart. That's the whole deal.
02:03:38
Speaker
Yeah. yeah ah Like, i don't know, man. Like, it's like, shitty oaks don't watch it if you haven't watched it yet for whatever reason you're still listening to this wait wait wait green caps or this movie will hit hard is an out of context yeah you know there'll be some giftff of like this this shot where the old lady' faces like obscured in shadow and you be like ah cars that just watch that gif you don't need to see the movie
02:04:10
Speaker
No, I think you got to wait for like a Drew Gooden, you know, like a Curtis Connor, you know, you got to go find like one of those reaction video people. And that one of those types of YouTubers are going to review this movie.
02:04:22
Speaker
When that happens, you know, watch the movie through ah YouTube reviewer that does it like 20 to 30 minutes. You know, you don't need a video essay, you know, that's talking about the intricacies of this.
02:04:34
Speaker
You've already listened to this podcast, you know, we can, we can, We went through all of it because there's not much, but we, we, we, we yeah so we, we gave it to you. we We put more thought into it than arguably Stuckman, you know, like just saying, you know, probably regardless, regardless, you know, like, like you want the, the best way to experience this movie is from like some snide, sarcastic person interjecting every once a while, just being like, uh,
02:05:01
Speaker
that sucked you know like in quips like that i feel like that that would make this movie more enjoyable and and i don't say that as somebody who enjoys those kinds of videos i'm saying that they exist for a reason Or would it fucking, would someone do an edit where they edited out the incubus and every time he showed up behind someone, it was fucking, it was Paddington.
02:05:26
Speaker
Wouldn't that be sick? And when I posted a picture of that every day or ever until Trump left office. That'd be freaking epic bacon, man. Like, i don't know. It'd be pretty good. and I don't know. Like, like i just put together this like fan cam edit of Chris Stuckman, like posing at the premieres, intercut with footage from Shelby Oaks.
02:05:51
Speaker
And it's scored by like recent Doja Cat, like from her new album, you know? And it's, it's showing that he's, yeah, right. Like, Hey, you know, I'm going to, Doug, we got to cut this episode short. I got to go make that. got to go real quick.
02:06:08
Speaker
It's too good. in You can't leave an idea like that on the Bunsen murder. You know, you got to make it.
02:06:17
Speaker
ah That's the best form to see this movie. I really, I think we've we've spent more and enough time on it. Like, ah I think we, ah like now, I wasn't mad at the movie, but now that I'm like, I just talked for two hours, by the Yeah, I thought this was going to be an hour, to be honest, but i the more I bought it, like, quit hours was this yeah what else is there in this? And then now I'm like, now I'm mad that more of my time was waiting. Not that I mean, at the time, but the conversation's great, but terms like, stuck me and fucking, you fucking got me.
02:06:50
Speaker
Two hours, another two hours you got out of me? Is this what stuckmanization is? Is that what just happened? Did we just get stuckmanized in the conversation? i think we I think we're stuckmanized, yes.
02:07:04
Speaker
Fucking Stuckmanized us. ah Fucking rat bastard. Fucking... like Oh, man. Stuckmanization is a kind of curse, in a way. And I feel like that... you See what I'm doing there?
02:07:19
Speaker
Like, wow. Yeah, you're you're going to bring up Jeremy Johns. Yeah, you're right. but Go ahead. No, but, you know, speaking of
Japanese Horror Films: Noroi and Cultural Themes
02:07:29
Speaker
curses... ah ah another movie that uh i thought was gonna be the the bulk of the yeah it was uh a a movie that i love that i i think it was like a few years ago maybe like during lockdown when i was just like really starting to but have a a actual appreciation of found footage and like wanting to fill not just those gaps but then also just
02:07:55
Speaker
horror blind spots of like you know what there's not a ton of japanese horror that i've seen and it's like this was crossing off kind of like an intersection of like oh this fills both those niches and people are saying you know it's like it would always come up on threads of people like you know noroy is like like fucking good and so i watched it back then and i was they are correct this slaps but uh re-watching it again ah maybe it was just ah after seeing shitty oaks and like being you know like i needy needing water in in the desert but i was like man this this movie is incredible uh i i i keep i keep tweaking my my found footage movie ranking especially after some of the other stuff we've we've we've covered but i'm like
02:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, this... eight Is it Noroi or... do i you like in my Am I saying... I think you got it. no I think Noroi is correct. Yeah. I'm like, that's... That's the shit that I want in a found footage movie because it's not just... Like...
02:09:01
Speaker
good found footage immerses you in a way that other horror can't because not only are you getting like these, these like you have to, the performances have to be pitched just right to really sell it.
02:09:14
Speaker
But then also this movie is selling you on the format of like what it is because there there's always like the justification of like yeah we just found this stuff or whatever but this is like no this is the documentary that this paranormal investigator who makes documentaries like this was working on and that but then we're also cutting to like you know uh a yeah ah Japanese talk shows and like all these other media sources.
02:09:42
Speaker
in it Initially, the first time like, whoa, this story is all over the place. But on rewatch, I'm like, this is brilliant how they're like falling all these other like these through lines and that it is one story, but you're like going to like these different vantage points of it.
02:09:58
Speaker
And then seeing that all come together. is so satisfying and it's it's about like someone who's not even into horror like i like my mom was in the room and watching it and she was like doing an eye at like the psychic kid past part you know and i had to make i was like you know that's not real right and she's like yeah i know but it's like it's yeah that's like that's the power of of the movie that it's like it's telling you on like yeah I don't need a marketing campaign like Blair Witch Project to be like yeah this actually fucking happened but the movie's good enough you are just sucked into that or you're like watching and you're like yeah this is this is fucking this feels real so this must be real
02:10:43
Speaker
You know, when you had asked me to do this episode and you were like, let's do Nori the Curse or Noroi, however it's pronounced. I think you're right, though. Noroi. And with this, I feel like I'll just fluctuate between whatever pronunciation feels right at the moment, regardless.
02:10:59
Speaker
ah Or if we say the curse, people will assume we're talking about this and not the Nathan Fielder miniseries. Yeah, there's no Benny Safdie here. Trust me. There's no goatees, no Emma Stones, all of it. Sam, new Max go out the window, you know?
02:11:14
Speaker
Anyways, with with this, ah so, like, when you would ask me to do this, like, i got curious personally, and I was like, what is the situation with Japanese found footage?
02:11:24
Speaker
You know, because I feel like, ah like, not just in our recent episodes where I feel like we've been very heavy in the found footage, I oh yeah feel as though with a lot of found footage in general, I've seen many examples of it for many countries, but I wanted to know what the examples were for Japanese specifically horror films that were found footage.
02:11:47
Speaker
And I wanted kind of go through that a bit. Would you indulge me if I were to? No, I agree because I want to. I want to know. So I'm glad you did this work. does so yeah i I want this kind of, and then also there'll be like stuff to add to my watch list. Cause I know there's even other stuff that people brought up from this filmmaker is as a cult found footage. Like that was the other yeah movie by this director that that people are like, you got to see a cult.
02:12:13
Speaker
So that one also is like a mockumentary found footage style. Yes. So the thing that has to be said about this director, so Koji Shirashi, sorry, Shirashi,
02:12:26
Speaker
like were Again, pronunciation is not the name of the game here. It's about the their work that they put out, people. We we care about what the work that they're doing. Our pronunciation is not going be perfect here. but The director of this film, The Curse, as well as Occult, you know, ah i personally, I think Occult's his best film.
02:12:44
Speaker
You know, i like it more than Nori or Noroi. ah But I do need to say that he is an important character Japanese horror filmmaker. And one of the reasons I would say that is because he also made a movie called all of the slit mouth woman, which, uh, if you were familiar with online spaces, you may have seen this, uh, gifts or pictures, uh, where essentially it's like, uh, what's, what's the name of that creepy pasta, the one with, uh, Jack or whatever, the guy with no eyelids. I, know I know, know who you're talking, cause I'm seeing the image of her. And so, so they just got that from Yeah.
02:13:20
Speaker
Exactly. Like she is kind of the root of that. And then also that the prototype of her and and, and also her, like she is a very famous, like image throughout Japanese horror.
02:13:31
Speaker
You will see it message boards all over the place. And then also another thing about this director in particular is that, uh, with other things that they had made. ah they there They're known for making, i i want to get the name right here again, and again, Japanese pronunciation. not my strong suit, but Denruti Kayaki File Kawasugi.
02:13:53
Speaker
ah Do you know about this or no? No. So this is like a multi-part television series where every episode is about an hour long and ah they're all found footage. And it's kind of like an anthology series.
02:14:07
Speaker
And this is not the only Japanese found footage thing. I'll get into anthology series. I'll get into more of that in a second. But this filmmaker in particular made probably the best of these things of where it's like a television series where it's an anthology of different found footage threats that are all kind of brought together.
02:14:24
Speaker
ah What I'm bringing up here in terms of Japanese-bound footage is that there is a reliance on the television model, where a lot of this is incorporated within and television spaces, and that's why you see this mixing of format, especially within The Curse. You have the kind of game show things that are going on as well.
02:14:42
Speaker
You see that as well as in Kawasaki, what I was just telling you about. And then there's also um the filmmaker Kiyosaki, Tosh... Sorry. Tosh... Tosh... Tosh...
02:14:53
Speaker
not gay so't he is the person who made ban for broadcast and and also ah ban for broadcast as well as paramal activity too tokyo that's right the original Parable Activity 2 was a Japanese found footage horror film that was directed by this guy.
02:15:12
Speaker
And I'm bringing up Band for Broadcast because Band for Broadcast is and also an anthology found a footage series made within the television umbrella of Japanese ah you know broadcasting, which gave birth to several films, including Psycho the Large Family, which I would say Psycho the Large Family is like the best Japanese found footage horror film.
02:15:34
Speaker
But we'll get to Norio the Curse soon and how it relates to that. But I see Psycho is like the most boundary pushing. ah But in terms of what you would expect from a found footage film, probably not what you would expect.
02:15:49
Speaker
Right. Then there's also one cut of the dead, which is also a job of found footage horror film. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. incredible right and one thing i'll say about all of these oh and then there's another filmmaker i want to bring up uh kataru harushi so there is this youtube uh arg i guess you'd call it uh called fake documentary queue which they've been going for like four years now five years now where it's an entirely youtube-based japanese found footage anthology series and
02:16:21
Speaker
where episodes can range anywhere from five minutes long to 40 minutes long. And it's just made by these people, just uploaded to YouTube, and they get like hundreds of thousands of views. And they're all Japanese, right?
02:16:33
Speaker
The thing I wanted to bring up as the umbrella that brings all of these movies together, all these projects to together, is that Japanese found footage is based in a realm of playing with format, with playing on traditionally structured things, even in One Cut of the Dead, right? Just in the nature of what that built is. Right, like that's a meta-narrative within One Cut of the Dead, yeah.
02:16:57
Speaker
precisely and all of the found footage films every single one including the one we're talking about today is including commentary of not just like found footage as a genre not just being a part of that but it's also occupying the larger space it's commenting upon japan itself um And with Noroi the Curse, um this is a very lived-in film. He is using things to kind of subvert your expectations.
02:17:22
Speaker
I would almost call this a cozy film in terms of how it rolls into these things, right? like Like, it's not too abrasive, right? And then also another thing, ah there's a reason why I'm wearing this baseball cap, right?
02:17:38
Speaker
Team Sonico, right? One second. team ah okay Team Ryoko. That's another film directed by this filmmaker, which is ah The Ring vs. The Grudge, right?
02:17:50
Speaker
Did you get crossover movie? That's awesome. It's like Freddy vs. Jason, but with The Grudge Girl vs. The Ring Girl. And, like, you should watch it. It's funny. It's not good.
02:18:02
Speaker
It's probably his worst movie that I've seen. but But I was i was there to premiere. Sounds like a fun time. I was there, you know, and these hats are. Hell yeah. ah So, so what, are what I'm getting at with Noroi, the curse is that um with all these different things, with other films that I mentioned there, there was Sadako, the large family, ah there was ah one cut of the dead.
02:18:25
Speaker
There was fake documentary Q. Yeah. I feel like with fake documentary queue, that's very boundary pushing and the method that the story is being delivered in terms of being output on YouTube. ah With One Cut of the Dead, it's not just a found footage film. It's also a satire of the Japanese film industry.
02:18:44
Speaker
Then there is Sadekoth, a large family, where it's like, I know you haven't seen that movie yet. I don't want to feel what it does. It's near top of my watch list, because especially after you were hyping that as like the best Japanese both found footage. I'm like, okay, got to see this.
02:19:00
Speaker
not only is it but i will even go a bit step further it's not even just the best japanese sound found footage horror films it's one of the best found footage films i've ever seen like it is is taking the format to places that like no other found footage film was gone before right uh but when i come back to noroi right i feel like noroi is like the quintessential, like, like almost like blockbuster version of what a Japanese found footage film should be in terms of like, I was doing all these elements and it's making it very like, it's very commercial, but I wouldn't say that to its detriment. I would say that it's actually quite clean and how it does these things.
02:19:42
Speaker
And, and, and it comes in how this, Which almost makes it more viable as ah you can buy into the world because you're like, no, yeah, this is a commercial product that this company would have put out so that they found that that, you know, like this this documentary witnessing, this is this movie, so this is what that company would put out using that.
02:20:02
Speaker
Like, good this it that it all it's like insular and where like in like you said it's like not abrasive like you know my parents don't do horror stuff it gets it gets it's nastiest in that way towards the end i mean she she'd have walked out or you know parents walk in and out when i'm watching stuff stuff so it's like yeah but i i was kind of glad by that point i was like they're probably not gonna be into this when it gets like too too uh theory but like but like even if the movie has like a ah vibe of creepiness throughout like it is cozy like it is we brought up zodiac uh before to denigrate stuck in but like in in the way that like i watched zodiac as is is like a comfort movie because it's like other than
02:20:46
Speaker
what you get like three murders at the beginning. and then there's that tense scene when he picks up the mom on the side of the road. But like, it's, it's other, it's mostly just investigate procedural, like going around, paul you know, finding some dead end they're interviewing people,
02:21:03
Speaker
It's like got really good fall vibes. You kind of just just hang out in Zodiac. And like this has a similar vibe. mean, it's hanging out in a world where I ah have less context for. Like I don't even fully aware of what you know Japanese norms or like japanese you know things on Japanese television that it could be subverting but it feels authentic in that way of like when it cuts to like the talk shows where i'm like yeah this is probably what a Japanese talk show is like if they did have a psychic wearing tinfoil come off
02:21:40
Speaker
and we'll We'll get to them in a second. Right. but the But I get what you're saying. Right. But then like another thing that's like to go back to the cozy element. Right. Like I got to be honest with you. Right. Like I've seen this movie probably dozens of times and it's literally because ah I find that this movie does a great job of putting me to sleep and I'm not putting it to dedicate this film. Right. Like I actually think that this is a good thing for this movie. Right.
02:22:05
Speaker
The reason I say that is because um it's very ah reminiscent of like the television shows that it's a ah evoking, right? Like it's it's not trying to like rock the boat in terms of tone or, you know, like ah this the perceived world.
02:22:21
Speaker
And then also going back into Japanese found footage and how it's presented. I feel like in American found footage films, right? They really show you the elements of the story.
02:22:32
Speaker
They really like go like, oh, here's a Ouija board. We're going to show the Ouija board and then we're going to look away and then we're going to set up, set up, you know? Yeah. and And with Japanese found footage, there is this element of like, here's the normalcy. And then we're going to show how the normalcy is broken.
02:22:51
Speaker
Right. Like I think about the scene that happens later in this film where it's like you got them having tea and they're having this this dinner and it's totally normal. And then she like gets up and then she walks away. And then all sudden they're like, she's still standing there and she's making a noise.
02:23:06
Speaker
And and and ah it feels like actual ghost stories. video this feels like yeah actual like like actual paranormal catchings and japanese found footage horror films do this element way better than most american found footage like just across the board all of them do that element really well because in real life i mean girls are real but in real life if this stuff were happening japan's not real but the is Japanese ghosts are real. This all happened. Like, this is that's as far long as I'm concerned. It's just over here. we don't. This is a documentary.
02:23:41
Speaker
Yeah, but ah it's is that that would that stuff would be interrupting the mundane, regular life. It's not going to be interrupting a plot, you know? you know is like someone ah Even if someone's purpose is to be doing paranormal investigation, like, I've watched Ghost Hunters. I've seen some ghost adventures.
02:24:02
Speaker
lot that is nothing happening. you know like that's that's what those shows are maybe you know are you you know not are you like even when something happens up that but like you know what mean in terms of like the entertainment value of like you're it's a lot of setup and waiting for like like we'd set up these cameras here and then we're gonna talk about the the the history of this place and i'll check back on the infrared nothing's happened yet all right we'll check back in on that later this is the key difference between American and Japanese found footage horror films. i so
02:24:32
Speaker
I believe because with American ah found footage, it's so much obsessed with the process. It's so much so obsessed with the perspective of the tech, right? Of like how this thing's being captured in Japanese found footage.
02:24:43
Speaker
It's like, Here's this tape. We found this tape here. We're goingnna show you the tape. Here's the tape. Tape happens. Okay, now on to the next scene. Like, its it's expedient, but in a way that feels natural for the story, where... Yeah, they don't break the reality, because even when later you they find, ah you know, something from when there realistically wouldn't be taped, they're like, yeah, this was shot on film. It was in the 70s.
02:25:08
Speaker
I had converted. Here's the tape. Here's the converted tape. You know, they just give you that line so you can still... stay in you don't need to be like wait a minute they wouldn't have added tape then know they're like oh don't worry i mean we can burn it from film it's fine eh and well but the the thing is is that like it it never wastes time right like every piece of information is showing you ah it's important for the story and as you were talking about there's these like formal breaks where it's like different kinds of uh programs that come on and it's like you don't really like think about it too hard because you're like oh i know why this is important to me i kind of know why it's showing me this thing because you piece together really quickly and uh
02:25:51
Speaker
they but the productions of these things are rather cheap you can tell often because they're just camcorders and they're just using these uh tv locations whatever the thing is that the horror of it is happening at such a break that pace pace where it's like all these things are mounting to one another and it's building an in-universe mythology where you're able to buy into these things very quickly it's actually doing quite a good job in terms of building universe without you really having to pay attention to the fact that this universe is being pieced together in front of you.
02:26:26
Speaker
Because we talked about how American found footage is blatant in its setup and payoff. They are setting up things here, but they're playing, it's played off in a way where it feels incidental or random, like real life is a lot of the times. And it it does almost feel like some of those things are dead ends, but then no, that is part of the larger whole.
02:26:45
Speaker
Like, ah you know, there's the, the, weird when they see the guy come out on the balcony and grab grab the pigeon and then we don't hear there's no follow-up on that that guy just went missing but then later that does become ah but like like no that's part this is all part of it like that that wasn't we weren't wasting your time with that and i also appreciate that on rewatch where i'm like you know what the lesser version of this when he takes that pigeon we would have just seen him bite its head off on the balcony totally but the fact that he just takes it inside de over, you're like, what the fuck did he do to that pigeon?
02:27:20
Speaker
Like, you can be in your head like, oh, he fucking is eating them or something, but you don't know. And that uncertainty is scarier. but There's one thing I wanted to bring up in terms of the larger Japanese found footage context, right? And there's one term slash concept slash character that we see repeated throughout all these films that I brought up before.
02:27:42
Speaker
It's the Heikyomori. Do you know what that is? No, what what does that ah mean? So that's a shut-in. So that's somebody who's chosen to live outside of public life, and they just live within their house, right?
02:27:56
Speaker
And we see multiple characters in this film that fit that profile. and Yeah, absolutely. Japanese found footage, you'll see that all across the board. But what I'm saying about in the context of this film in particular is that there is this constant like peering into these private lives that are trying to keep themselves private.
02:28:12
Speaker
Right. And that's an interesting conceit for a found footage film because we, the viewers, are voyeurs trying to intrude in those people's lives. And the more that we intrude within their lives, the more the horror grows. Right. Right.
02:28:26
Speaker
I don't know how, you know, it's so uniform across Japanese found footage film store. These often take these ah frameworks, but just this framework itself is far more complex than the standard American found footage film, or it's just like teenagers who have a camera and they don't know how to put it together with this. It's like, it actually feels like it's all ingrained within the actual text of what it's saying.
02:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, that that's a great point because like on rewatch, especially i was, no, I mean like you get hit with the bluntness of it, of like how casual some of these horrific things are. Like they'll interview someone and the text will be like, they died a few years later and then are a few days later. And and then someone's describing like this accident or whatever, but you're like,
02:29:11
Speaker
as it goes on, it, it, you're like, yeah, these people wanted to keep their lives private and they're basically, they're killing these people, like not directly, but like by dragging them into this, that they're now a part of the, you know, like this, this, this, yeah this hurts, you know, it's, it's, it's,
02:29:30
Speaker
it's it spreads like a virus and it these people you just gotta as we know what you're supposed to do with viruses you just gotta stay home you know and self-isolate so when quarantine gets broken that that it it pays back like ah I felt bad for ah the guy with the aluminum foil what what's his name oh I already named Yeah, I think Horry is his last name. The super psychic. Because you could tell, like, within the context, like, he's being invited on as as like, a super psychic. But, ah you know, he's a sideshow attraction as, like, an object. Yeah. Like, he was, like, the people booking that show know of, like, this guy's fucking crazy.
02:30:15
Speaker
Like, this is gonna... uh, he doesn't think the movie like for it's like, he's kind of portrayed as like a mentally challenged character. And like, I, I don't like the way that that's shown in terms of like, oh you know, the simple person who's in tune with the spirits, you know, like that's a very cliche thing. But then also it's like, I like the fact that but there's this question of like, how calm is he, you know, like how much can we trust him? You know, like we get like the,
02:30:43
Speaker
whole like event where he freaks out and you know and this whole idea of pigeons that becomes a repeating motif Right, because regardless of the mental handicap of it all, I like the idea that like, if someone was this sensitive to these on these things, this unseen world, and, like, all this supernatural stuff, it would be maddening, you know? Like, that it would it would break your mind, and you would basically, like, there were it would be pretty hard to tell you apart from a schizophrenic person. So, him...
02:31:15
Speaker
this him i like i i I bought him even more as a... like The first time I was, i was like, this is a lot, this character. And it is.
02:31:27
Speaker
But i like within the... We were talking about the world building. like I bought this of... like Yeah, man, he's got, he's picking up all kinds of crazy frequencies, like 24 seven. I mean, maybe the, yeah like the foil is dampening some of that, but like that that's, this that's gotta to be like ah so overwhelming to him at all times. And now there's cameras being shoved in his face and people are like, you know, taking advantage of his oddness or, you know, the investigator is using his insights as that's the thing I like about Kobayashi is that he is just,
02:32:03
Speaker
it begins with the quote of like, he's like, I just want the truth, you know, regardless of how weird or or horrifying it it may be or something like that. But it's like, he's just talking to these people, nonjudgmental, and then following the lead that he gets from there. So if if some tinfoil dress guy gives him a, somebody sketches out some drawing, he's like, I'm going to take that. That's like, that's my lead.
02:32:26
Speaker
You know, like he's following it. Like, it's like a map, a actual map. And it does pay it. Like that is, what it connects to everything but the fact that you know yeah he's not being like yeah this fucking wackadoo guy who he's like okay here's my you know he's asking questions you know like if a guy in tinfoil starts raving about ectoplasmic worms you're like wow jesus christ but he's like tell me about the word you know like he wants to know more you know like because he's like that's He's supposed to be, a he introduces himself as a journalist to people. He doesn't say like, I'm a Ghostbuster or something. He's like, no, I'm a journalist.
02:33:03
Speaker
And that's like, he's but fulfilling that investigative journalism archetype, like to a T. Well, that's also another common thing in these Japanese found footage films is that they do have this kind of like intermediary character.
02:33:17
Speaker
These people who aren't the camera person, but they're a ah observer who exists for the kind of audience to project themselves upon. And I do like that level of abstraction in comparison to other characters.
02:33:33
Speaker
mainly american found footage films where it's like the perspective character is just the person who's holding the camera in this right circumstance we have this level of abstraction where it's like there's a person who has a mission they're funded by somebody to get the story right and they're trying to seek the truth wherever the truth may lie right and and and i like that there is this kind of motivation that's underlying this movie at all times where it's like there's the truth obviously in the story, but then there's also just trying to make an entertaining program.
02:34:04
Speaker
And what's interesting with this person is that they're just like, the more they deep, they dig, the more the interesting shit they find. Right. Right. This story is like one of the reasons why this movie is so cozy is that like,
02:34:16
Speaker
every five minutes something crazy is happening right but it's playing it so straight that like you don't get disrupted so much that's just the medium mode that it's playing with it where it's like this scene happens wait a second let's scroll back for a second did you see that figure in the background or right here's this thing people are gonna freak out here for a second like like it's just really well paced out now it does this thing so
02:34:53
Speaker
doll in the treehouse before being like oh you had to squish the evil he's got your mistake jackass you know which is like i've been thinking about you're right no i was gonna say that's what i would have done in no roy is just like i just would have not been cursed i would have just decided that and you know i yeah it would i i'm just built different i guess i don't know Well, you know, this movie is filled with a lot of fuck shit, you know, like people getting involved in fuck shit, you know, inserting themselves into fuck shit, you know, yeah witnessing fuck shit, you know.
02:35:30
Speaker
and And personally, it's like, you know, the moment I see some fuck shit, i'm not a part of that, you know. That's not really not my none of my business. That's not... There is one person he's interviewing I think she like...
02:35:46
Speaker
was a friend or a schoolmate of the daughter of the store store from the village or something who as soon as she brings up uh she just like gets up and walks up she's just like i can't do this
02:36:04
Speaker
That doesn't even say, sorry, please leave or freak out. It's like, just get the, and there's the eeriness of like, wait, where did she go? But it's also like, yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm done.
02:36:14
Speaker
You go, go ask someone else. Now, I'm no body language expert, right? But if someone were to do that in my presence, I'd be, you know, like, I'd be feeling a certain way, right? and And, like, that's just going to be the case with any found footage film, right? Where it's like, you got to suspend your disbelief. They're believe or accepting this because they're so scared, you know, all those things.
02:36:37
Speaker
the The thing is, is that I can accept it in a movie like Noroy because, uh... we're not dwelling on these things too quickly. You know, like we're moving from one thing to the next to the next so quickly that I feel like I'm getting like an overload of scares and overload of, you know, an overload of the vibe because it is just, it's it's just a good, creepy and cozy vibe. It's like, but yeah, there will be, and there is an escalation in terms of like, it does go fully off the rip. Like it by the end
02:37:11
Speaker
stuff is happening that you'd be like, yes, this is what I, ah the Japanese are now found footage movies. Like the camera gets really shaky. And then there's like, maybe like ah a possessed person or like a D or so. So something you you you got some creepy image you got to see something crazy ah at the end. And this movie checks those boxes, but it's so well considered in how we built to getting there that that feels like,
02:37:38
Speaker
ah a reasonable payoff. Like that that's like, yes, this is where we were headed. Like this was the the conclusion that we were barreling towards. Like, look, this is a cheap movie. Like most Japanese sound footage horror films, they're very, you know, like they save everything for the reveals. Right.
02:37:58
Speaker
But the thing is, is that it's a smartly constructed film to where if you're not like so aware of the different genre trappings where like we' we've said before, but Western Battlefield films, you know, like I feel like Paranormal Activity, they're just showing you the things that you're going to have to worry about later.
02:38:19
Speaker
And this is like, it feels like it's throwing so much at you where like, you don't, you're not sure what's going to come back later. And what does come back later when all those pieces do come back together. You're just like,
02:38:31
Speaker
it was all there. Filly me, you know, like, right it's a real scattershot thing. I don't think that this is like some immaculately constructed film. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think that it is perfect for what it's attempting to do in terms of just like giving you this kind of a boosh boosh of ah horror sequences ah that all wrap up tidily within one central ah thesis.
02:38:57
Speaker
and And one other thing I'll say as well is that, ah you know, I really like that there's this strong emphasis on like Japanese folklore. this idea of like constructing its own mythology, you know, and its own rules, you know, right something that you'll see with a lot of these films is they'll do those things.
02:39:15
Speaker
And I feel like with a lot of traditional television films, it's just like, oh, here's a demon. You know, we all know how demons work. Right. With all these things, it's like you need to pace things that out. You need to give us the rules of these things. And it's not just because it's like, you know, made it with a Western audience in mind. It just also feels like there's the consideration there for how the story is going to be delivered.
02:39:36
Speaker
Well, in it yeah it just feels more unique like maybe just as a ah and but ah by virtue of like I you know have seen less Japanese horror but I'm also not a Japanese you know I'm so engrossed in all this American horror where it's like the devil, Satan, like, it when you start referencing Kagutaba, it's like, I don't know these, like, spirits and these demons.
02:40:01
Speaker
And even within the world of the movie, there's the one scholar he talks to who's like, I think this village just called it a demon because that's, like, their best, like, frame of reference for what something like this is because like it almost feels like that this entity could be maybe even Lovecraftian in its reach because like the but super psychic ah tinfoil guy he's even saying in one of the first scenes we see him in that he's like connected to space you know that like he's running towards and And the fact that we have the things like ectoplasm, there's enough like little things where you could make your own sci-fi connections of those things. It doesn't spell those out. You could just be like, this is a demon, Kagutaba, and that they had to you know this is their efforts to cleanse it. But the fact that it's yeah ah opening that door of... like
02:40:54
Speaker
hey, we're calling this a demon, but don't know, man. They have more. Yeah. Well, i'm I'm glad that you're bringing up Lovecraft because i would say that a cult leads more into the Lovecraftian influences. like Okay. A far more ah ethereal and spiritual thing. And it's oftentimes more surreal as well. so get excited for that. I forgot, yeah.
02:41:17
Speaker
And one thing I will say about Occult, not to spoil it too much, ah so obviously told in a similar way, you know, where you're getting all these interviews, one of the people that they interview for, like, you know, paranormal experts is the director, Kiyoshi Kurosawa, the director of the movie that we covered, Cloud.
02:41:35
Speaker
Like, not to, you know, spoil it too much, but it's like, He is a character in a cult, which is just just awesome. That's fucking rad. Only the time I've seen him interviewed is there's like a Scorsese documentary about like, like 1940s, like horror noir that were all produced by, I think his name was like Val Ludin or something like he did. Like I referenced earlier, like I walked with a zombie. He did that. He did, I think the original cat people.
02:42:06
Speaker
ah ah Seventh Victim, I think, was another one that he produced. That one's rad. I think I've heard about that on Giamatti's podcast or something when he was
Paul Giamatti's Podcast Dynamics
02:42:19
Speaker
shouting that movie. Shout out.
02:42:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think it's over. I don't know that he's still doing it. I mean, he's probably just so busy doing... He's got like a Star Trek show. He's got... I got to put it on this friend there.
02:42:32
Speaker
that That was a weird friend for him to make a podcast with, right? Like just some random. A professor from Chicago, I think. it is like Yeah. Who's like weirdly into psychedelics. Like, no, like the the only way that a Paul Giamatti podcast is sustainable is if it's with another character actor. Like it needs to be with like a Richard kind. It needs to be with like another person who is in his same league.
02:42:56
Speaker
i get I agree with that, but I like that counterbalance of like, yeah you had character actor Paul Giamatti, and then you just have professor who is like has interest in weirder shit and it's so like he can bring some kind of historical perspective sometimes and then Giamatti will be like wow didn't know that you know is but but the weird thing about that podcast and the reason like even as a Giamatti fan I never really got into it too much was that like Paul Giamatti vibe the best with just other actors, with just, like, other people within his profession that he'd worked with.
02:43:32
Speaker
And, like, even when they were talking about the paranormal, you know, like, he would have Tom Hanks on and they'd be talking about Bigfoot. And, like, that would feel really well. Like, it would work really well. But then you would have that other guy who would have to chime in. Like, it felt like I would just want to hear Paul Giamatti and Tom Hanks. Like, I don't want to hear this other guy that is just, like, Giamatti's friend who is into...
02:43:55
Speaker
shrooms like i don't need to hear that you know ah i think he's all right but i get what you mean bringing it back to no right you know kind of the paul giamatti of japanese horror in some ways you know in some respects you're right you know like it just is like it is broad it is it hits all of those beats in a traditional way goes down like a warm you know those kind of fish films it does it it doesn't have a complete idea does it you know no ah but the the thing is this with the roy is that it feels very um like it it's safe it's not too gory uh the the the disturbing imagery is not crazy and you get this crazy idea in the last act of the film where it's like these you know ah
02:44:50
Speaker
aborted children. The fetuses were being fed to the kidnapped girl so she could be a conduit for Kaguta. Yeah, that's like it, but because of the pacing like you alluded to, and they're throwing so much stuff off you. You're like, that is fucking insane, but you don't...
02:45:06
Speaker
you don't get that much time to linger on it the most lingering you can do is in that final scene in the in in the house and also when like all ah mostly near the end is where get more time to like linger on some of the more disturbing elements like when they find all the dogs in the woods and stuff like that like because you know that's what's gonna happen when you come back to that the village and you're like, huh, dogs are gone.
02:45:33
Speaker
That's, uh, alright. So, yeah, then they're all in the woods dead, sacrificed, and you're like, yeah, yeah, that's what I thought was gonna happen.
02:45:44
Speaker
but But like I said, it's hitting those beats that you expect from things, but ah unlike Shelby Oaks, which is like, almost like someone following a recipe lazily this is hitting those beats but when they happen it still feels refer it it it feels good but it also is like yeah somehow I didn't see this coming even though you laid it all out for me in in ah in hindsight with our clear ways but it's like yeah I was just so into it in the long for the ride that I was not ahead of this
02:46:19
Speaker
Well, like, I had brought up the Sedrutsi, Kayaki, Fylde, Kawasaki, like, files before, right? that That's like a full television series where it's like every single episode has to be its own contained ah anthology of a found footage thing, right? And it's like 10 episodes long.
02:46:37
Speaker
It needs to do that every single time. And there's a formula that comes with that, right? Like, there needs to be, like, a way that in which they can do that in a tidy fashion. And Naroi feels like kind of an extension of that in terms of just, like,
02:46:49
Speaker
there needs to be like some kind of pattern to where he can sustain all of these scares, you know, and like five minutes, every five minutes, there's another thing that's happening in this movie. I'm not even exaggerating. Would you agree?
02:47:01
Speaker
No, I agree. yeah Yeah. gar it's It's not a spectrum because it could be, it could be something like horrifying or weird, or you're just like, huh? Like what we cut to, like, we're seeing the psychic girl, like manifest water. You're just like,
02:47:13
Speaker
oh I didn't know that was on the table. You know, like, that I didn't know, like, I thought we were just going to be doing some spooks and specters and stuff. You know, you're talking about, like, psychic abilities and stuff.
02:47:25
Speaker
Like, we're doing, like, I'm like, oh, okay. it It is a situation where you have so many, like, different ideas in the plot, right? And it's putting your direction, in like, you're putting your attention in so many different directions to where you could go down these different paths.
02:47:43
Speaker
And, but That's good filmmaking. Like the fact that you are thinking about all these different things that it could to go down. then by the end, you get this bigger picture of how it is all connected.
02:47:54
Speaker
Another movie this reminds me of do you ever see Incantation? I think it's Thai film. yeah I had seen part of it and then I just never finished it not for not liking it but I think it was just one of those things where I started it too late fell asleep and then they're there never circle back but I was like really into like what I was getting from the get-go like I was like oh this vibe is it was it was vibey from what I remember I would honestly call that film also cozy in the term of how it lulls you into a literal trance. That's like the part of the filmmaking. Yeah, that's like in the beginning. They're like giving you instructions on like tra like entering into a trance-like state. So like, yeah, that's awesome.
02:48:41
Speaker
Yeah, and and I feel like the Roy feels like that. I feel like, and not in like it you know in such a plain way where it's telling you it's being you're being lulled into that perspective.
02:48:52
Speaker
I feel like as you're watching it, you're learning to accept the universe it's building for you. where the people in the universe aren't even aware that spirits are real.
02:49:04
Speaker
But as you're learning about these things, you're just conceptualizing this entire world that just makes sense. And it's done so quickly. like it's Like, it's offhanded, almost. Like, it's it's actually quite strong filmmaking to make it seem this easy.
02:49:22
Speaker
And for something that is... kind of just exposition dump after exposition dump, not feel repetitive or you're like engaged because he goes to someone, learns a new thing, goes so follows the new lead.
02:49:35
Speaker
But this is the, this is the version of an investigation that I like, like not not to keep, we've moved on to Shelby Oak, so want keep dumping on that. But the fact that like, that that's it she walks into a room the scrapbook's there it's like no like have more scenes like the key this is a series of Keith David scenes that's what No no Roy is it's like we're gonna we're just being introduced to new characters julie it's telling you about a new character and they're setting the table for something spooky and then that just keeps building but then we get spooky stuff that is reflecting what we have set up so it's like it's all it's it's very well constructed
02:50:14
Speaker
it's It's just a smart movie, right? and And it's not just in the larger concept of Japanese found footage horror films. As I said before, like I've seen other movies this guy's made.
02:50:27
Speaker
he's not really well suited for narrative fiction. Right. I actually think that he has a strong grip over like what found footage as a format is not just in this film, but in the other films and television that he's made, you know, like it this is a really interesting way of grappling with the genre in a way that you don't get with most, you you know, people.
02:50:49
Speaker
You wouldn't get with your Ori Pellies, you know, whatever his name is. I forget his name. Oh, yeah, I i know you're talking about. I can't remember his name. But, like, it makes sense that so much of this stuff is from the world of, like, like TV anthologies specifically because, like, that this does have... Like, yes, there is a through line. There is one story. But if you cut, if you cut isolate these separate... so Like, you do get separate pieces that could be their own...
02:51:18
Speaker
like episodes of a thing on its own. Like, yeah, you have the, you we just have the through line of this investigator or whatever. And then, yeah, we know that Traugataba is like the root of all this, but these things on their own have enough juice that these are like scary enough set pieces or spook creepy enough ideas where it's like,
02:51:38
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. These this ghost hunters type so Joe took some actresses to a shrine and then she got she's like ah keyed into some some some crazy shit.
02:51:51
Speaker
I like that actress who's I think playing herself. and I like i I don't know her from other Japanese stuff, but I think that that she's just up here you know, she's, you know, she's an actress and and she I think that that's who she is and in real life.
02:52:05
Speaker
You know, the thing about the way the story is told is that we're introduced to so many characters that we don't really have to dwell with them too long. And that's a strength for these actors to where you don't have to dwell on their performances too hard. You don't have to like buy their reality too much.
02:52:20
Speaker
The only person that you really like have any issues with, at least from my perspective, you know, they perform is the guy with the tinfoil hat. You know, like I feel like... That's that so that's the biggest, because the rest of it's have naturalistic and effortless, where this is trying to sell you a concept of a person more like, no, what if there was a guy who, because of all the supernatural stuff he was, bill you know, like,
02:52:47
Speaker
picking up that it's like it made him like this and and so like you have to you kind of have to like just be willing to go with it on that and like yeah but otherwise it's not asking you for big ass like that I want to say did they just use music from the thing ah and yeah well i want to talk about that for sure they felt like the thing it also felt like a fucking uh escape from new york it sounded like any of their straight up like i mean any omaricon score is him just doing carpenter for the thing but that's just what it sounded like that the uh that i was like did they just literally reuse it especially when they're going to the lake towards the end i'm like this is
02:53:28
Speaker
This is the thing, like the dog's in the cell right now. Like this is what ah this is crazy. Well, this is always something that needs to be considered when talking about Japanese and South Korean films specifically is that, you know, it's not just their own ah history in terms of filmmaking, but they're also highly influenced by American films as well. That's why we're talking about it in the context of American films too, right? Right. ah the The thing is, is that like they're all kind of blended together in that sense, but Japan also,
02:54:02
Speaker
has this stronger nationalistic ah internal grammar in terms of like how their things are constructed. So different from South Korea, I feel like South Korea, they have this like, you know, thing that's a lot more derivative from the West in terms of how their films are made.
02:54:19
Speaker
i feel like Japanese, it's like they see it and then they take the things that they like and then they, you know, they filter it through their prism. Yeah. Yeah. and And they're really protective of their prism, right, is the thing. And and with this movie, that's repeated often, you know.
02:54:35
Speaker
ah ah Like, I brought up with that, ah ear cur like, I forget the thing, that the the shut-ins, you know. Yeah. this Like, that's repeated throughout this film entirely, where it's like there are multiple characters who you have to just kind of view from afar or, like, receive until, like, they find it in, right?
02:54:52
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of this is about like people who are trapped in their own worlds and then how those worlds collide and how they all wind up into this larger idea of the curse. Right.
02:55:03
Speaker
I like that it's setting these breadcrumbs up to where it all feels inevitable and not in a way that feels cheap or unarmed. And like we said, like, yeah, this is like low budget, but it's not, it doesn't feel small.
02:55:19
Speaker
It feels like we're getting like this over-art, like there's so many different threads that, that come fold in on itself where it's like, this, this is like a huge thing. Like it does feel like the, like by the end of your, like,
02:55:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i don't know. Tagutaba's probably just gonna, is like the end of the world something, right? Like, it did does it does feel like that this is, we've reached the end of all things. i also love, ah I see, you know, I feel like this is a very Japanese horror thing, like just a repeating pattern because you like Uzumaki has the spiral and then Tagutaba's thing is like interlinking circles. Like, I'm sure there is some kind of spiritual significance to some of those symbols and in in patterns in terms of like their their culture and their folklore. But i for my viewing, it gives a very clean physical manifestation of like some kind of otherworldly influence, but in in a way that was like, yes, this was someone, a possessed or influenced person did this with their hands, but it also feels
02:56:29
Speaker
not of this world, even, you know what I mean? but It's like, it's like a pattern of yeah like, yeah, circ we have circles. We know what those are, but the them being arranged in that specific way, in that way, it's like, person wouldn't do this. That's fucked up.
02:56:43
Speaker
but how you Why are you interlinking circles like this? I would never claim to be an expert of Japanese culture. I have studied other cultures in the past, and i would say that, like, maybe I would be more, ah you know, ah educated in other countries in this sense, but I'm going to take crack at Japan.
02:57:00
Speaker
You know, let's why why not? We're here. We're talking about Norfolk, you know? Yeah, why not? i but The thing is, is that ah I view... ah in Japan, there there are many things that you like culturally they're obsessed with their and their artwork.
02:57:16
Speaker
And one of the things that is often talked about is their relationship to the workday. you know like What what but productivity is, right? And I feel like a repeated thing that happens in other horror films is this idea of of an obsession kind of driving someone mad.
02:57:34
Speaker
Right. You see this repeated through any of the classic Japanese things. We talked about The Grudge and the Rain before. Right. Echoes hand to hand. Right. uh, the, what, why I'm bringing this up in relation to Noroi is that I feel like it, it, with Japan's unhealthy relationship with work culture and obsession with, uh, you know, working yourself to the bone.
02:57:57
Speaker
i think that there's this also idea that like, uh, people, they continue to do things within their lives for the sense of self-sustainability to the point where they no longer understand why they do those things.
02:58:10
Speaker
And it becomes like a repetition thing. and And I think that in many ways that becomes religious in its own way. Right. And that's what this curse is, you know, it's these things that we do over and over again throughout years without time, throughout time to accomplish your goal that we don't even recognize until it's accomplished.
02:58:31
Speaker
You know what mean? Yeah, yeah, no, I didn't even think about it from that angle, but that, like, makes complete sense that that would be something, especially someone from within that culture, would have on my, whether consciously or subconsciously, mean, I assume it's conscious.
02:58:50
Speaker
I assume everything I see a movie is intentional, unless otherwise, unless someone's giving me enough, like, ooh. reason to doubt that they're doing smart stuff on purpose that ah I'm usually just going to assume like, hey, you did that it was meant to be that.
02:59:07
Speaker
We should always give filmmakers the benefit that of the doubt that they they actually thought through the things that they put into the movies. I think the mean, it's like so much time and consideration for these things to even be conceptualized, let alone like actually made and then put before us. Or it's like...
02:59:23
Speaker
Yes, there will be incidental things that like someone missed like, oh, that guy had beans on in the background of the Mandalorian or whatever. But that's those those things aren't very yeah arguably no one's putting much thought into that stuff.
02:59:36
Speaker
That's why that's why I have. But the ah but but but most of the like what we're seeing is like, yeah, so many different people were working on and thinking about this, that that's all there as a result of that.
02:59:49
Speaker
That's like, yeah. But yeah, to your point of like, that that's what, I mean, that we we kind of talk about the hustle culture stuff when we were, you know, so talking about, well, cloud.
03:00:04
Speaker
clo Wow, I was having brain fart. um Yeah. That's okay. we yeah we We were talking cloud. We were talking about like the hustle culture and like how that mindset kind of, perverse your thinking, but like in terms of like, no, this is like a curse and it transfers from person to person. That doesn't just affect one person. It's it's it's viral. It affects a community.
03:00:27
Speaker
ah Even to like the point you were bringing up about all these shut-ins. It's like you can't actually escape it even if you think you can opt out of it. It's like we're going to find you and drag you into this. It's like capitalism is like, no, you must participate.
03:00:46
Speaker
you are a part of this community whether you want to or not. And then also on the flip side, it's like what drove them to those positions, but the society itself, right? The society itself is so broken to where people feel the need to do this thing to the point where there's a full name for it, right? right And it's also a repeated motif throughout these found footage horror films that I've seen ah about the Japanese culture, you know?
03:01:09
Speaker
The fact that it's this repeated thing, the fact that it's this continued worry, right? The fact that, like, ah Japanese culture is so worried about this idea of, like, stasis and removal from public society.
03:01:24
Speaker
I think that it does say something about, like, you know, the ah overworked mentality that, A, the society's put under, and then also how that is in ah active society.
03:01:37
Speaker
ah confluence with nature, like how nature is not something that operates on a punch clock, you know, it just happens, right? And I feel like that there's always an awareness of that in terms of how these spiritual events are handled in this film.
03:01:52
Speaker
Because we see multiple sides of Because, like, some of the shut-ins are clearly, like, victims of this curse. And, you know, they wind up dead. But then there's the the one who's trying to summon Kagutaba, actively malevolent, like the daughter of this the sorceress. Like, she was she's depicted as a shut-in, too. Like, every time...
03:02:13
Speaker
you you know we see her different modes like she moves from place to place and it's like that corruption is going with her but that's like her lifestyle is what when we go inside those houses like that's how she's living too and I just gotta say like because of the way that this film is made just in how these set pieces are built like you get that moment where like the dishes fall off of the table yeah right yeah it it seems like it's a pretty easy stunt. It seems like it's a pretty easy thing to do, but also like in the moment, it looks real.
03:02:42
Speaker
I'm buy fully bought. buy into I'm not, I'm not like looking for the scenes or anything. was like, this is, this it it's, it's cohesive. There aren't, and moments like that where I bring that bring me out of it where i'm like they're reaching beyond their means because and especially anytime you actually see any kind of entity it's stylized and otherworldly enough in a way where I'm like yeah they obviously weren't going for photorealism like when you see those those little like
03:03:13
Speaker
like so but the spirits with like like the big eye I mean I guess that's like the image of Kagutaba also but like it's like when you when you see that that bizarre it's like it's like yeah it's humanoid in terms of like there's a head and then there's the body but it looks like it is that's not human like that that is not of this world so like they're it they're not like doing effects that they can't achieve like if anything they know exactly like how to depict the thing and that's so sparingly when you even get those glimpses those are glimpses like wiz this is not this is not the ending of Shelby Oaks where you keep cutting to like a generic demon guy in the background it's like no you're gonna see you'll see something but it'll be very brief
03:03:56
Speaker
but it's gonna, you're gonna buy it. Like, it's not like, like, like when you when you see the Kagutaba face of a little boy, it's like, yeah, that i'm I'm fully, but, I mean, most of that's just on the performance of the little boy being so stiff, the stiffest boy ever in terms of like, how he's, spoke he's like,
03:04:14
Speaker
it's like, you almost feel like he's going to burst a vein or something that he's like so tight. the The way we stand stuff. Yeah. Well, you know, when you do watch your cult, let me know, because I feel like every single thing that you appreciate about this film, ah like that film always flies in the face of, which makes it kind of interesting.
03:04:30
Speaker
Right. ah But I do admire what you're saying there where it's like it doesn't overplay its hand. it don like it's It's pretty bombastic in how it's he delivering these things to us and it's never you know giving us a moment to ah sit with it.
03:04:47
Speaker
That being said, um it's so diverse in how have these things manifest to where ah it feels unlike anything we've seen before. Right. Like a Western perspective.
03:05:00
Speaker
yes but Yeah, exactly. I feel like that the improves my appreciation of these things so much is that I, and with the Western perspective, so many things, these things could become so stale in how they're depicted.
03:05:12
Speaker
And the fact that even if it's like a so a setup that we kind of are familiar with, like, okay, someone's in the woods, and then they're going to see some kind of creepy shape or something behind or they don't see it, but we see it. And there's a...
03:05:24
Speaker
a set piece like that we see that when they take the actress to the shrine but it does feel like something i've never seen before because of the specific execution of it and because it's done all this this like world building to where it it it feels real like it or are in in it in in the the diversity of those manifestations like you get that camera glitch when they go see the the tinfoil shut it and it's it's like that's so fucking cool like you see all the faces like it's like multiply it's a it's almost like like their cameras being demon hacked in real time or something it's it's like it's a really cool effect and ah like yeah you don't need
03:06:06
Speaker
ah and millions of dollars to depict this stuff like they're they're doing it very simply the because of virtue of them doing it more simply and cheaply and within their means it almost it it adds to the believability of it There's no way that this movie costs more than a million American dollars.
03:06:26
Speaker
Certainly more than a million yen, because I know that the conversion, you know, it's not exactly right when it comes to the, you know, production of this. This feels very cheap.
03:06:37
Speaker
And but a lot of the found footage Japanese films are very cheap. You know, it doesn't. need to put a lot of stock into this and also another thing should be said like this is not like some you know forgotten masterpiece it was just kind of like re-released and then people glombed on to it because it was so well aged in that sense this movie was made in like 2005 this filmmaker put out like two other films that year you know so it's like i want to double check that actually i think they may have done television
03:07:11
Speaker
i they They did television and then they did a television movie in the same year. And then they made three movies that did the year prior. And then the next year they did one movie. Then the year after that, they did it four.
03:07:23
Speaker
it's like in in Japan, you know, like the the culture of making things is... This is drop in the bucket. They didn't pay too much attention to this in the same way that we are even right now.
Comparing Western and Japanese Horror Films
03:07:35
Speaker
But it's just like in the instincts of how to tell the story, right? They nailed it on all fronts. they They hit solid gold. I'm very excited to watch a cold. I'm probably going to... That might be what I watched tonight. because ah Yeah, i I'm um'm pretty pretty hyped to to see more from this guy. Noroi is the only one that I've seen. and I just want to continue diving more into Japanese war because like the...
03:08:02
Speaker
There haven't been any that I've seen where I'm don't buy it. It's just a phone that I whether it's it's the coziness of this or the fucking nihilism of the Yoshi Kurosawa stuff. I'm just like, this is fucking my shit. Exactly.
03:08:20
Speaker
Like, this is like what I want for more. I've seen bad Japanese horror for Shinn. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Yeah. ah I'm not saying that's what you're saying at all. You know what I am. I'm staring for words into my mouth.
03:08:37
Speaker
Get the fuck off this show. I'm out of here. this the This will get clicks, you know, like that the rage. but Yeah. You never worked in this town of young kids. I'm done.
03:08:49
Speaker
ah No, the thing yeah that's interesting is that the the batting average of the things that do crossover is a lot higher than average, I find. Yeah. You know, like, and the thing is, like, like I'm not like, an expert in L things.
03:09:06
Speaker
I never claimed to be, right? But when it turns to, like, horror films in all countries and paying attention to like how each country does. Right. I feel like the batting average in Japan is much higher for whatever reason.
03:09:18
Speaker
Right. I mean, they're good at baseball. That makes sense. That too. You're right. There's a lot of transplants in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. ah ah But but the the there's that there's some kind of special sauce, some juice, you may say, where Japan just knows how to do these horror films in a way that's not so, ah you know,
03:09:42
Speaker
like Like it's fresh to a Western perspective while also being boundary pushing just on international scale. They certainly have their own like cachet of things that are just kind of fodder.
03:09:53
Speaker
Right. What I do like is that specifically within the found footage realm, there is so much to go over. And I'm glad that you're excited to watch a cult. I think that a cult is like a ah great zag for this movie Zig.
03:10:07
Speaker
And then I'm actually more excited for you to watch the TV series. I've seen that whole series. and eyes are I'm going watch all of it. that i didn't even wasn't even aware of that book before, but I'm um excited that there's so much stuff before. I just love having new horror, especially like newfound footage stuff to dive into.
03:10:27
Speaker
That series is like it's an anthology series, but then slowly you start to realize that they're all connected. Just like this. Exactly. Yeah. And there's another thing where, ah you know, I just think that like there is this greater respect given to the war that we don't get with Western stories, I find. I feel like with Western stories, the lore is like a formality, right? And I think that, and I'm not trying to, you know, be Orientalist with this perspective. I'm just saying, like I feel like in the way that Japan approaches storytelling, I feel like they actually care more about selling you on the world of these things.
03:11:11
Speaker
like Do you mean Chris Suckman didn't learn to sell me on Tarion when he showed me that the there was a a book called Demonology and there was like some scary dog demon standing over a girl's bed and that that was all we got in terms of explaining the lore of that demon that you don't think...
03:11:30
Speaker
don't think he cares that we didn't care about this? Well, you know, when he started Shelby Oaks, he was looking at me in the care and the face and he was saying, as you know, i been a big fan of demons my whole life.
03:11:43
Speaker
And he started telling me about demons. And I was like, this guy knows shit about demons. ah I also just think like did American horror, you get into a run, especially with like some of the, like, I, yeah there's great horror being made all the, all the time and in in every kind of country. Like, ah but in terms like the mainstream American horror,
03:12:06
Speaker
I kind of roll my eyes when I find out that there's the demon or the devil's involved because it's like, we already know there's like a playbook of tropes that you can grab bag and stuff.
03:12:16
Speaker
And like we've said that like, it's not like Noroi isn't hitting a checklist from like demon or possession movies, but it's it's deploying them in such unique ways.
03:12:28
Speaker
ways that it it it it's fully its own thing because it's like established the world that at that point even when it gets tropier so it it just doesn't feel the same way as like and there are exceptions too like I'm not saying like any American horror with a demon is bad I mean I actually did think that like I know everyone hates Josh burgers, but was like, oh, after long legs, I was like, oh, devil's kind of scary. was like, don't know.
03:12:53
Speaker
it was I thought the devil was cool. I thought devil was kind of chill and not that big a deal before, but after long legs, was like, is the devil, like, bad? Damn, this fucked up.
03:13:05
Speaker
I think you're going to get something interesting as well in relation to Neuroi because I like the idea that like the more you dig into this thing, you know, that you shouldn't be dis disrupting, the more that like it comes after you, you know, that you get in this movie. like but but Because they try and they try and solve it. Like there is a solution in terms of like,
03:13:27
Speaker
this ritual for Kagutaba that this village used to do before the dam was built and it was put underwater Kagutaba didn't like the dam being there. we're like, okay, so we just go to the lake, we do the ritual and we're good, right? Like that's going to solve it.
03:13:43
Speaker
They do it. That's, he's not happy with what, with but was the that offer. He's like, I reject. No, but yeah i yeah and I'm going away. so you did some bow.
03:13:57
Speaker
Fuck you. Well, and that's another thing too. It's always this question of whenever spirituality is brought into any film, right? Where it's like, okay, so let's imagine that we live within it like a Christian God's universe where demons exist, right? right That immediately proves that God is real and that all of like theology exists, right?
03:14:19
Speaker
Putting it in this to this perspective, right? Where you have like spirituality like specific to regions, specific to curses that are created by other people in Japanese culture, right?
03:14:33
Speaker
These things have to be adhered to, right? That immediately itself makes it a more interesting thing, right? And then also like the act of the filmmakers themselves, the more that they peer into it, the more that they're, you know, a part of this, the more that they're opening the door for these things.
03:14:50
Speaker
it's It's all baked in. It's all baked in. it's it weather Whether or not it was totally cognizant or not, on the filmmaker's end, it's all there. all part of the pie, baby.
03:15:01
Speaker
doing a and Not that it matters or there there needs to be a plot reason, but did they fuck up the ritual? Did they do something? if they had if they had bowed a little differently or done something different, would would it have have worked? like I was trying to like look for a side on the rewatch I'm like, yeah, this actually was a good plan. It's just they just fucked up this one thing. And then that's how Uta was like, whoa, you did my ritual wrong. Yeah.
03:15:28
Speaker
I think it might just be as simple as that. I feel like that like that's enough for it to be like some bit major transgression. But then there's also the gray area where you could dig it the other way, right? Where you can say like, you know, maybe it it is just, you know, this this larger thing that they could just never fully conceptualize, right?
03:15:46
Speaker
I think both answers are true and both answers are interesting. Yeah, they don't negate each other because even when you hear the history of the village, it kind of just seems arbitrary where it's like, yeah, it seems like with like some other stories that demons and these spirits do have rules, like there is some kind of cosmic order.
03:16:05
Speaker
But we and humans don't really know the full shape of that because they have this ritual to appease it. But it kind of just seems like he could decide at any moment that that's not enough because that's kind of what happened, you know, is that he was like, no, fuck the damn. I'm not, I, I'm not appeased.
03:16:25
Speaker
have The opposite of appeased.
03:16:30
Speaker
Going in a completely opposite direction, but just something broader, you know, i like that a lot of this movie is just during the day. Yeah. They'll lit rooms, you know, just like it's very ordinary. And then the things that go wrong just come out of nowhere.
03:16:45
Speaker
You know, no at no point do you feel safe, which is also adds to the cozy element where it's like everything feels fucked up and wrong. Right. Like you do get, of course, get the, ah you know, nighttime in the woods, but spooky stuff. But those aren't even like the scariest scenes, really. It's just like, like you said, it's like the something crazy interrupting the mundane. Like, ah yeah, like they're just eating and then the the, you know, actress gets up and starts starts voting and you're like, oh, God, that's not good.
03:17:18
Speaker
pigeons start doing some fuck shit, you know, like, like things like that happen. And you have that in your, like, such a good job of seeing, cause like he goes, crazy he, you know, goes ballistic on the stage and is like yelling at her about pigeons. like, well, that was, that was intense.
03:17:33
Speaker
And then layers do she starts seeing pigeons. You're like, oh, he was right about everything. It's selling you on this internal world without making you feel like an idiot for doing so.
03:17:45
Speaker
And it's ah like, all this is just good filmmaking. I just think this is all good filmmaking, even if I feel as though other films by this filmmaker just kind of lack the sauce. Yeah, yeah.
03:17:57
Speaker
ah did the way that they go go a little harder in the paint than this. It's like, yeah, i for my dumb Western brain, this is like revolutionary. But like once I have like for sure immersed in the the world of ah Japanese horror specifically found footage, I might be like, yeah, this is not even the the top of the the mountain.
03:18:18
Speaker
Like, i'm sure I'm sure it won't be my favorite. favorite yeah This is the top of a mountain, I would say. This this is the top of like, I would say Japanese normal mountain.
03:18:29
Speaker
Or, you know, the paranormal activity almost, you know, whereas there are your Blair Witches, there are your, sure you know, like there, there, there are things that. Is there Japanese established land?
03:18:41
Speaker
Oh God. beat this Oh man. Uh, you know, I, I may have an answer for that actually, but I'll tell you off mic. I feel, I'll, this is, yeah. yeah Um, but, but the, the thing is is that the, uh,
03:18:55
Speaker
The thing is is that Japanese found footage is in this realm where just its baseline is more interesting than what the Western baseline is.
03:19:06
Speaker
That when I say that this is like the paranormal activity, it's it's almost like, you know... it's it's giving Paramell Activity a massive credit almost, where it's like those are rudimentary films.
03:19:18
Speaker
And I say this is like a rudimentary film in terms of like the repeated themes and the repeated imagery and the repeated methods in terms of things that will happen. Like this is the platonic ideal for Japanese found footage in terms of like, this is like, yes the these are the elements that but ah other but movies, even if those they do certain things, but those are iterating or subverting the ideas in stuff like this.
03:19:46
Speaker
But, but that being said, this is so chock full with ideas. This is so creative and innovative from scene to scene from moment to moment. Like they're, they're finding new ways to unsettle you. That's way better than paranormal activity in my books. You know, like that's, that's doing a lot more, you know, like it's really hard for me not to give this movie a, just a lot of credit just on virtue of its own being.
03:20:07
Speaker
Absolutely. It just casual. I mean, like it the casual nature of the cruelty of like what is happening to these people and the tragedy of it all.
03:20:19
Speaker
But I feel like that's something else that like hits in in Japanese horror, especially like when i'm watching Kiyoshi Kurosawa stuff where I'm like, you just you really feel the ah it's like a cosmic unfairness. Like when they find Kana, the little girl dead, it's like, yeah, I knew that was going to be the ultimate. bit oh you know like resolute like there's no point that I think they were finding her alive but you're just like god damn and so no one didn't have to put it that way yeah and even she is says like she she has like the vision of like and like I don't think any of us I'm i'm para I'm paraphrasing but like that like none of us can escape this or something that she says ah to that degree it's like it's too late for us or something that's like yeah they were they were fucked from the beginning
03:21:06
Speaker
yeah there there's this whole like, yeah like, the whole thing with the curses is that they're born from anger, they're born from resentment, right? And they're meant to be passed down through unresolved ah emotions that just don't, you know, get properly filtered through, right?
03:21:26
Speaker
And by framing this under the idea of a curse and in the Japanese perspective of that, it's like they're, they are poking this bear. They are provoking the spirit. They are allowing for those things to continue to open.
03:21:39
Speaker
Right. And, and, and I think that that it itself is a more interesting in on this where, as you know maybe in a Shelby Oaks it's so high to uh who they are as people whereas this it's like it's more so the search for this truth and the more that you find this truth the more that you reveal this horror to yourself well well put I don't have you on the But have smart people phrasing smartly who makes this show seem like it's like about stuff.
03:22:16
Speaker
It's good. hey they hey hey you gotta host the show in order for that to happen you know so it's just i'm meeting that level that's what i'm saying well i i i yeah i'm i'm appreciating you meeting that level because that that they just it rising tide uh raises all booze or whatever raises all baba booze raising all curses yeah
03:22:41
Speaker
Well, I'm starting to fade because it is getting late, but I think yeah i think i think we've done justice to it. i they've ah this I think so. This movie is easier to track. to like If you haven't already, you're already as deep and haven't seen it.
03:22:54
Speaker
I feel like it was, even though it is like a crossover, like, you know, success in terms of Japanese horror, it was like slightly harder to find. It is a little easier these days. Like you can rent and buy it.
03:23:06
Speaker
Like most places you you could do that, but also it is on Internet Archive. Like if you are, you just Google Norway, the cursing English sub whole movie, like you'll find like it's, it I believe Shudder also like did a big push for it. Right. So if you have Shudder subscription, okay, it is on Shudder too. A version on there. Yeah.
03:23:27
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, I can watch it. don't know what you do with your life. or i Watch it. Ratchnory the curse or be cursed. That's what I say.
03:23:40
Speaker
I was the guy who only watches Shelby Oaks and not Noroy. It was like, ah, that's... Imagine that life. That sucks. Well, no, it's good that there's counterpoints, though, because Noroy exists. So it's, you know, you can just forget about the Shelby Oaks and move on with your life, which is exactly what I'm... As soon as I end on this episode, I was like, it's not a movie that's not going to linger in my mind.
03:24:07
Speaker
but Look, I listed like 10 different like Japanese found footage horror films, right? And I'd say like all of those are better than Shelby Oaks, right? Like it's like there's no reason for anybody to watch Shelby Oaks.
03:24:20
Speaker
And with all of these films that have been tangentially brought up in relation to Noroi, like come it's it's not even a contest you know like there are places where these stories are being told with more verve with more emotion with like it's not even hard to find you know this is just one country that we found you know right pick any country on the map and you're going to be able to have the same kind of success And it's only by the mediocrity of all of the other surrounding Western found footage film in which we compare Shelby Oaks to where we give it that importance.
03:24:57
Speaker
Whereas with Japanese found footage, it's like, this is just, this is just a Wednesday. Right. Like they're just tossing this shit out and like we're we're struggling to get even something of that caliber every so I. But after there's there's still good American found footage, but it's it's yeah, it's not it's it's not the same.
03:25:20
Speaker
No, it doesn't. hit This hits different. This a real hits different moment. Absolutely. Yeah.
03:25:29
Speaker
uh, one thing I'll say about this all is that I just hope that you watch psycho, the the large family. Oh, and that's just that's, that's, that's happening for sure. I just, I'm probably going to watch a cult first just cause I'm riding the Noroi high, but I'm probably, that's just going to probably just snowball into watching that but after that. i mean, probably not both tonight, but like, yeah, that's happening. Oh, I'll talk to you more about that off mic.
03:25:54
Speaker
yeah There's something I'll say off mic about Psycho, but like that, that's, that's one of those movies that like changed my perspective on found footage. The moment I watched, yeah, I'll watch that. Yeah.
03:26:05
Speaker
I'm, I'm hyped. I always love when I have but is stuff like that to look forward to, like, to watch. Yeah. Man, it's, and, you know, and it's, uh, we're recording this on the the 26th in your time zone. It'll be, you know, Halloween soon.
03:26:23
Speaker
The spooky season goes up until Christmas. You know what i mean? Like, it's like, yeah I'm, I'm, I'm, that's a state of mind. Halloween's a fucking state of mind.
03:26:34
Speaker
so I don't truly leave Halloween state of mind until like ah November 15th. You know, like I know that like people are ingrained to just enter Christmas mode on November 1st.
03:26:47
Speaker
For me, it's like I stay there for a while. You know, it takes a bit for me to i come down from it. Yeah. I can't just like go snow in here. The Holly and Dolly like that the fuck that shit is.
03:27:02
Speaker
Yeah. Like I've got another podcast that's being planned for December. Someone wants to do ah something like that. I made sure that it was a horror film still. So like it's still being like this kind of headspace where I'm not like totally out of there just yet.
03:27:16
Speaker
You know? Yeah. It's that thing where it's like you can't you you're you're not out of the woods just yet. And and that's okay because um I think that Halloween is the best holiday.
03:27:27
Speaker
I do. Like, this is the holiday that I love the most. This the magic time. Yeah, same. I mean, liked it as a kid even before I liked horror. Like, I was, like, too scaredy for some stuff when I was younger. Even though I was always, you know, like, I liked monsters and creepy things. But, like, when I fully got into horror, I was like, oh, yeah, this is...
03:27:48
Speaker
This is absolutely the best holiday, for Halloween.
03:27:53
Speaker
It's, uh, lets you do whatever you want in terms of like appearance, in terms of behavior, all those things. And that also is legal for 24 hours. That's exactly what I say. that That's exactly what That's another ah thing that people don't talk about that Halloween is purge rules and you can do whatever. And it's, it gets pretty crazy out there. So safe.
03:28:17
Speaker
they but true There was one time where i went on like a kind of like hooligan run with a bunch of friends. You know, like I remember one time I i was hanging out with my friends who were doing these things and they wanted to like, like destroy jack-o'-lanterns and like, you know, cause a mess.
03:28:32
Speaker
And like, I was off to the side just being like, where's the Halloween spirit? You know? Yeah. this This is sacrilege to me, you know? So that's where my heart lies. I just want to make the audience aware of that.
03:28:44
Speaker
No, I mean, that's, I was i was being just, well, of course, i have I'm in that. it's No, no, no, I'm with you, I'm with you. wasn't trying to. we're in agreement. Halloween's the best.
03:28:57
Speaker
Happy Halloween, everyone. Uh, and then also, you know, look out on, uh, uh, the feeds I'll be posting about it, but probably going to do some kind of like live stream or watch along thing on, uh, Halloween Eve, the Hallows Eve Eve, you know, uh,
03:29:18
Speaker
another I mean it's just a found footage season it just kind of be accidentally I didn't plan this this just happened like we were doing these movies and then on Elphys' thing we're doing the VHS like I guess this is just found footage season like fuck it man and what better way to cap it all off with was the movie that the BBC had yeah yeah
03:29:43
Speaker
ah I, for one, of looking forward to this greatly because I haven't seen Ghostwatch in a long time, but I do love it when you get a television program that's actually like, sorry, a channel that's behind it.
03:29:56
Speaker
there There are other channels that have done these things going forward, but like this one in particular has a real special tinge to it. Well, yeah, I appreciate it. And then the fact that you're going to be there, it makes it like you'll be in good hands, guys. Even if you're like the night before ah Halloween, Doug's fucking probably plastered or ah high off his tits. He's a how's he going to host a watch along? It's fine. Tony's going to be there. I don't do shit. i I'll also be drunk and high of both of those things, too. But at least you'll have two of those presents. Are you guys to come babysit us? We're going be fucking out of our mind. There you go.
03:30:34
Speaker
I don't know you fucking figure it out fucking ghost watch bitch like get ready like it's real another movie that's real and happened for real Which doesn't break my eyes. Like, yeah, I like that idea that like, is oh there's no ghosts in America everywhere else, though.
03:30:52
Speaker
Oh, they're haunted as far. Like Northern North America. No, we just don't have that. they over Even though like so much death and tragedy, all that happened. No, goat no, sorry. It just didn't happen here. But over there.
03:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, they got hell ghost. I think that just speaks to the lack of American, uh, Western imagination. You know, the average person just doesn't have the same curiosity. That's, that that's, that's the way that I view it.
03:31:18
Speaker
I think there's something to that or the, cause, and then even like, I know that you're right. Is a representative of like Japanese cultural, spiritual beliefs, like as ah in, in large, but like the fact that our conceptualization, conceptualization of a spirit is just a one for what they're like.
03:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a person, but then you kind of see through them. That's the best we got. And then they're coming up with like different shapes and sizes and kinds of categories of spirits and stuff that there's like you know there's there's lore to it. And yeah, they were just like, oh, the guy's got like an arrow through his head. He's like that or something.
03:31:58
Speaker
the What do you want from me, man? I'm fucking on break. you know like Come on, get away from me. so i go and on Get out of here. ah I made a ghost. Is that enough? but mine Fuck you. you know like I get it.
03:32:11
Speaker
ah But yeah, no ah excited to watch Ghostwatch. Excited for Halloween in general. Excited for the juice that these guys got juice has got. yes Hiatus.
03:32:24
Speaker
So yeah we're better things are looking quite good in a big way. so Big time. To quote Ray Stans from Ghostbusters 2 after the Ghostbusters are back. We're back.
03:32:37
Speaker
yeah
03:32:40
Speaker
ah do you have To quote the quote the receptionist from Ghostbusters 1, we got to...
03:32:48
Speaker
There's layers to that one. and That's a, people don't actually appreciate that. I appreciate the most cause I've seen Ghostbusters, like the amount of times it takes to burn out a VHS, however many that is. And then had to buy multiple VHSs from when I was a kid. But like, that's, if you have brain damage from doing that, you you appreciate the the layers that Joe can.
03:33:12
Speaker
Anyway, have me plucks. Yeah.
03:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, got a couple. like i could do it I could do a few. ah so So we both do Unsourced Wall Radio. We've been going through the whole, ah you know, VHS saga. And this week we're going to be completing it with Halloween. Closing the book.
03:33:30
Speaker
Sorry, VHS Halloween. And we're closing the book of Saw. Yeah. With this. Combining multiple franchises there. we Yeah, we're closing the book of Saw of VHS.
03:33:42
Speaker
it's It's always a good time over there. Listen to us there. And then I'm also on Two Cents Critic ah podcast. ah I just was recently on there to cover cover Del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities. We did like a four hour episode covering every single segment in that show.
03:34:01
Speaker
Definitely listen to that. i Yeah, I want to listen that for sure. That sounds good. it It turned out quite well. We also just recorded an episode on Samus Mill, who was brought up on this ah episode.
03:34:15
Speaker
We did an episode on Comet. ah So check that out. I have i never seen Comet. So maybe that was the time to watch it so that then I can listen to that. I gotta say, I liked that movie quite a bit when I watched it when it came out.
03:34:30
Speaker
I didn't like it as much when I watched it for this podcast. So I'd be excited to hear what you'd say about that, Doug. um And then the last thing I wanted to plug would be in Films We Trust. ah We're going through the filmography of Larry Fessenden and we're approaching our last episode, which will be about Craved.
03:34:49
Speaker
and Blackout, ah Larry Fessenden's Frankenstein and Wolfman films. We're bringing it together in the universal sense of monster films.
03:35:00
Speaker
It's going to be a blast, guys. Everyone's got to tune into that. That all sounds great. I mean, and then, yeah, I already mentioned the the stream we're going to do for Ghostwatch.
03:35:12
Speaker
There'll be a link for that. But then also, i' i'll you know, the next day or or so, I'll probably, you know, just post the on this feed. You guys can listen. You know, if you miss it, it's not going to be a FOMO thing where you're like, I stopped listening that night. Oh, how am I going to hear those things?
03:35:29
Speaker
ah I don't know why we have like Jerry Lewis listening. He still has lot of our listeners. The Nutty Professor's like, I wanted to listen to this on Halloween night.
03:35:40
Speaker
Yeah. So if you're in that specific situation and you're the Jerry Lewis Nutty Professor and you missed out, you can listen still listen to it on wherever you normally listen to the show. um And yeah, that's that's that's what I got.
03:35:55
Speaker
Have a happy Halloween, fuckers. Baba booey, bitches.
03:36:03
Speaker
Thank
03:36:28
Speaker
So