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Episode 12 - Pursue Passion or Profit?
1.1k Plays4 months ago
Many people will tell you, "Pursue your passion and you'll never work a day in your life", suggesting that if you follow your burning passion, the money will follow. Others are far more practical recommending you find a product that will sell and focus on that right away while building your business because WE ALL HAVE BILLS TO PAY. Which of these is right? How should we balance pursuing our passion while earning a living? Does a sole focus on money ruin our passion for a craft that used to make us feel alive?
Join us for a spirited discussion on this topic with our new interim host Jennifer DiArenzo!! (While Mary is traveling this week) Jennifer is classically trained with a degree in art and illustration, is a phenomenal pyrography artist, and has strong coffee views and a sense of humor that fit right in to Woodworking in Bullshit.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
Bye!
Introduction of Podcast and Hosts
00:00:16
Speaker
Well, hello again. Welcome back to your favorite podcast. Woodworking is bullshit. And if it's not your favorite, well, it damn well should be. You need to have your head checked. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night.
Temporary Co-host: Jennifer Diorenzo
00:00:32
Speaker
And I'm joined by my two amazing, illustrious, fabulous, intelligent and provocative co-hosts, Eric Curtis, a full-time furniture creator and, uh, sorry, furniture maker and content creator.
00:00:46
Speaker
I like furniture creator. Furniture? Well, you are. That feels good. Thanks. And hey, that's not Mary. That is. Wow. That's racist is what that is. What's that about? I said nothing about race. I just said that's not Mary. Sorry, Mary. Just going to identify. Sorry, Mary. Sorry, Mary. I said nothing. I said nothing so far.
00:01:12
Speaker
have a new host today while Mary's in Germany. That's where she is, right? Yeah, Germany on a work trip. We have our friend and amazing artist, Jennifer Diorenzo, sitting in the chair today. Jen went to art school. She's an amazing pyrography artist. Don't tell her I said that because her head will get even bigger. And she's a wonderful mom to two kids. So she has to balance her work with her momming duties.
00:01:41
Speaker
And actually Jen and I have a long history of working together on collaborations, but also over time we've had tons of discussions about art and about topics that kind of agitate us about the art world. And so we thought, you know, Jen would be a good, she's an agitator and she's a thinker and she's an artist. So I think she'd be a good sit in for Mary this week. Yeah.
00:02:11
Speaker
Hi. Yeah, so with that. Thanks for having me, guys. We thought that we'll find out. So this is actually Mary's audition tape, and we're turning to decide.
00:02:28
Speaker
We're trying to decide if she's good enough.
Art: Passion vs. Commercial Success
00:02:33
Speaker
So today's topic, you know, we always start with a question and today's topic was something that Jen brought up. She sent it to me and she's like, she sent me a post and she was all agitated about it. And so I said, Jen, if you think you want to talk about this, let's hurt some feelings together. Why don't you lead off today's episode?
00:02:53
Speaker
I can definitely do that, hurt the feelings. So it's doom scrolling Instagram time and I come across this post and I'm going to read the post verbatim here. So imagine you got well known for art you hated making. Art you made because that's what the audience wants to see because that's what's trending and popular. And then you had to keep making that art on repeat because that's what people expect of you now and that's what's selling.
00:03:23
Speaker
and that sounds like some kind of fresh hell. So the question at the end of this post was making art that people like versus making art that sets your soul on fire, what are you gonna choose?
00:03:39
Speaker
And when I read it, at first, obviously I'm like, oh yeah, I wanna make art that sets my soul on fire. That's the whole reason I got into art in the first place. But then I'm like, ah, I need money. I can't always do both. I need money. I need money. So I was kind of agitated in a way that like,
00:04:05
Speaker
I don't even know how to describe it. It was like a conflict in my head about like, why did I start doing this? What am I doing now? And can you do both? Is it possible to do both? So I'd say I'm trying to do both right now. But I don't know how well I'm doing. What exactly are you doing to implement doing both? What's the strategy to do that?
00:04:33
Speaker
So I am currently taking commissions but I'm taking nowhere near as many commissions as I used to so that I can have time to work on passion projects, to work on art that I want to do and I have no idea if it's going to sell or not but it's something that makes me happy and makes me want to keep making art because if I
00:04:56
Speaker
Like I was just listening to you guys, your episode about burnout. If I just stuck with the commissions all the time, burnout for sure. Like I was already getting to that point. So Jen, can you give the listener some idea about what kind of work this was and what commissions you were taking for so long? Yeah. So for years, I'm trying to remember.
00:05:16
Speaker
I've been doing pet portrait work since 2009, and I started out doing paintings, colored pencils, pastels. I eventually got into pyrography. I picked it up as a hobby and fell in love with it. So I was doing pyrography, pet portraits for years. And then I got to a point where I was like, if I look at another dog or a cat face, I'm going to lose it on something.
00:05:45
Speaker
And then Paul came into the picture and was like, you need to stop doing that and work with me. And I was like.
00:05:50
Speaker
The audacity of this man, I'll tell you. Basically, I took Jen from profitability to making no money is basically what she's saying. It's a beautiful way to live. It's a very accurate way of looking at it. Well, she was miserable. She'd be like, I have 20 portraits to do this year, and I want to die. And I said, well, why don't you do things you feel like doing?
Balancing Passion and Financial Stability
00:06:15
Speaker
And she's like, yeah, money. And I'm like, yeah, but you could make money doing the other things too.
00:06:20
Speaker
And that's such a long con though. To set yourself up to make money doing the things that you want to do is a long-term strategy. And listen, I'll play my cards right here. I think it's the better strategy, but it takes so fucking long to set yourself up.
00:06:37
Speaker
to get into a position where not only are you good at the thing, because you have to get good at the thing that you want to do before you market yourself doing the thing that you want to do. So there's multiple stages there. You have to first master the thing. And then you have to figure out how to market yourself as a master of the thing. And you have to figure out what differentiates you from the other people who are equally as good, if not better than you at the thing that you want to do. It's an imposter. It's a Sisyphusian task.
00:07:06
Speaker
Did you just say Sisyphusian? Yes. What did you just say? Do you have a thesaurus open at all times? It's a syphilis test. Syphilis test? It's syphilis. It's when you think about it. You need a Z-pack. You're going to get there. It's fine.
00:07:24
Speaker
Do I want to know what you know needs to be prescribed for that? No, no, no. Shh. Plead the fifth. No, no. We're not doing it. We're only seven minutes in. This is not a medical podcast, Jen. Jesus. This is not going to Eric's. This is not going to Eric's syphilis in seven minutes. OK. OK. So back to Eric's point, because it was a good one, there is a typical
00:07:49
Speaker
You know, a lot of people, for example, I remember Alan Watts said this once, he said, you know, why would you do a job you hate to go on living to do a job you hate? And like, you know, enter that futile cycle, right? So he would always say, do something you love, you'll become a master at it.
00:08:10
Speaker
and then you'll be able to make a living. Now, Eric, you
Creating a Unique Niche: Is it Profitable?
00:08:13
Speaker
brought this up. I think there's four stages to this. I like to break things down into frameworks. So the first stage is identify your passion.
00:08:23
Speaker
And if you identify your passion, the common wisdom is that you'll become a master at it. You'll become excellent at it. Right. Go ahead. Can I ask a question right off the jump? Sure. I, I wonder in, in maybe you have a thought on this. If you have to identify your passion, are you passionate about it enough to, to go after it long-term? Like if you're looking for the thing that you're passionate about, then it's not punching you in the face saying like you have to go do this thing or you'll die inside.
00:08:50
Speaker
Okay, that's probably my wording. You don't have to identify a passion. All right, fair. You have a passion, right? Sure. So you have a passion. If you pursue that passion, you will become a master. If you become a master at it, you will create a niche for your art, your work, whatever. A niche will be created for you.
00:09:11
Speaker
And the fourth, that's the third step. And the fourth step is that you will then profit. So passion leads to mastery, leads to a niche, leads to profit. Now, that's like kind of the funnel, as you called Eric. I like that framework for it. Right. But I think there are assumptions baked into that funnel.
00:09:29
Speaker
And there's topics that we should talk about at each step of the funnel. So the first step, and Eric, you already brought this up, when you have a passion and you become, you want mastery of that passion, you said, how fucking long does that take?
00:09:43
Speaker
And how are you going to pay your bills while you figure that out? That's the question, right? So that brings up kind of my first
Mastery vs. Niche Creation: What's More Important?
00:09:52
Speaker
instinct is to say, stay employed while you pursue that. Because when you are attempting to master a thing, you are inherently inefficient. And therefore, you can't make a profit on a thing.
00:10:05
Speaker
So by staying employed and allowing yourself to have your bills paid, you allow yourself the freedom to explore and to find out what it is within that kind of and I know we're jumping ahead to like a niche to find out within that framework, what you're good at and what you actually want to pursue. Because saying something like woodworking, like all three of us are woodworkers, right? Jen is a pyrograph. Paul, you make
00:10:30
Speaker
kind of smaller scale objects. I take on commissions and sometimes they're much larger scale. I've worked in cabinet shops and made kitchens in the past. I've worked as a framer. Like those are all variations on woodworking. So how do you identify what it is that you actually are good at? It's by staying employed so you don't have the pressure of making the same fucking cutting board over and over again for 45 hours a week.
00:10:54
Speaker
Right. And you could also say like, I don't want to say this, like most people are not most people, but there are a lot of people in this world, not art artists or woodworkers or anything in that creative industry that have a job.
00:11:12
Speaker
that they're miserable at it. So even if you get to a point where you're making some kind of money doing something that you love, like you're already luckier than a lot of people out there. Okay. So, Eric, your advice is to keep your part-time job while you figure out how to become good at the thing while you become- I say keep your full-time job.
00:11:35
Speaker
And then you're you've also given some other words of wisdom that I wrote And and I quote some people just aren't good enough to make their dreams come true Who said that What kind of asshole
00:11:57
Speaker
would say words like that. Some people are good enough to make their dreams come true. Listen, listen, listen. I stand by it, okay? I don't know what to say. Listen, hard truths. Some truths are hard to hear. I can be so passionate about singing. I can be passionate about dancing. That doesn't mean I'm good at the thing. That means that I'm willing to pursue, unless I loved football. It was my first great love in life. I still adore that game.
00:12:27
Speaker
And if I had my druthers, I would have played in the NFL, but I'm five foot nine and I weigh 170 pounds. And I had 11 concussions before the time I was 20. Like there's no way, it just wasn't going to happen. It just wasn't going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. My brain is adult and wrapped.
00:12:46
Speaker
So that actually brings up the two assumptions that passion will lead to mastery number one is that can you survive that period maybe with the job you can but how long is that period the second assumption is can you get to mastery.
00:13:01
Speaker
That's actually, not everyone can become masterful at their passion. Some can, some can't. So when everyone's like, oh, just do what you love and you'll make it, it's not, I mean, yes, maybe, but you have to consider it carefully. I'm not saying it's wrong advice, but there are some bug boos. Now the second step, mastery leads to creating a niche for yourself. Are there baked in assumptions for that?
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah, that that perhaps your mastery of a field is going to be is I suppose it's like, I don't know what that I'm trying to identify what the assumption is, but it is the assumption of just like, if you're good at a thing, people will pay you for it. Well, which is true. How far do you have to niche? But to call it a niche. Right. So like you can be a fantastic cabinet maker.
00:14:00
Speaker
but like everybody else is also making kitchen cabinets. Well, I think the assumption built into that one is that the art will sell itself. That if the art's good enough, it will sell. And that's not what the data says. The data says you become a famous artist or like a high income artist, not because of the quality of your art necessarily, but who you know,
00:14:26
Speaker
and where your first galleries were and what institutions they were related to. And we have a lot of research in the last five years that shows it's who you know and it's what institutions you come from that govern, at least painters, whether they get big money for their work. So it's really about social connections and marketing and sales so that the work doesn't always create the niche. You need sales and marketing to create the niche. People don't buy art. People buy an artist.
00:14:56
Speaker
That's just, that's just how the world works. It is who you know, and it's, it's your social networks. And so putting yourself in front of people who can afford your work is a skill set in and of it's maybe a skill set. It's not the right word. It is finding it's expanding your social network. Yeah, it is. It's a skill feels a little bit sleazy. I don't know. You know?
00:15:21
Speaker
Marketing is a skill and if you're marketing to certain people, I think that's a certain kind of skill that you have to learn. Well, that's that is 100% true. I would agree with that on every level. I guess I'm wondering for folks in artistic fields there, or maybe it's just for us.
00:15:42
Speaker
there's a fine line between like those personal relationships and those personal relationships that also help your career. And I guess I'm struggling to draw that line somewhere to say like, well, being friends with this person is a business connection. But then if you're in that connection long enough, you just become friends and you become human beings together. And then I don't wanna
00:16:07
Speaker
you know, make those two things one, because then it just feels like I'm using that person. Yeah. So that's why I hesitate to say it's a skill. Yeah. Jen, what in the marketing side, you know, you've, you've been on Instagram quite some time. What are some skill based marketing things you've realized about yourself and selling your items?
00:16:28
Speaker
Ugh. You know what? I think I'm still trying to figure that out. I feel like I'm mostly focused on Instagram, a little bit on Facebook. I'm not on the clock app. I'm not on YouTube. The clock app? We're so old. We are, though. Especially one of us.
00:16:58
Speaker
So the algorithm is constantly changing. You used to be able to post beautiful pictures and that would sell your work. Then you had to make awesome catchy reels and then that would sell your work. Now you have to make reels that are showcasing your work in seven seconds or nobody's going to pay attention. So I really don't know right now.
00:17:25
Speaker
I just kind of keep posting what I can, when I can, and seeing what sticks with somebody.
00:17:33
Speaker
Well, so I'm wondering if we dive into the conversation about being a content creator as a job in that being the art that you are known for rather than the art that you want to make. I think it's totally a part of it because part of the reason why I was getting so burned out I think was because I was constantly trying to market myself and that was
00:17:57
Speaker
That was awful i hate it well and i still hate it i mean listen let's let's call a spade a spade making content making videos short form long form whatever it is is an art form right so if you are getting paid to make content which i am as my full-time job i make
00:18:15
Speaker
I would 75% of my business is the content 25% is the actual commission or the income from the pieces or the objects. So there is absolutely those moments where I am frustrated, whatever it is, the, the, the comments that come in on YouTube or the way that a real performs or the negotiations with a company trying to get to a point where I feel like my work is being valued. That's all.
00:18:44
Speaker
I don't know if you can escape that, right? Like work is work. It doesn't matter what form that work is taking. If you are a full-time furniture maker and you don't make any content, that's what you do. There are going to be days where you wake up and you're like, I'm so fucking tired of dealing with clients. I'm so tired of working in whatever. Jen and I, we were just having this conversation about using oak as a medium for pyrography, right? Like fuck oak, it's the worst.
00:19:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Sorry, Paul. It is. I just gave Jen an oak box to do a paragraph on. That's exactly what we were talking about, how much it sucks.
00:19:27
Speaker
But this is what I mean. Like the, the idea is like, well, if I'm a full-time woodworker, I'll be happy forever because it's what I love to do. But then you find the little things that annoy you because it doesn't matter what you're doing. Work is work. Life is life. Like you can be with the person who is the best partner for you in the entire world. And there will be days where you're like, can you just get the fuck out of my face for like five minutes? Like I just need a goddamn moment.
00:19:52
Speaker
That's just being human. So Eric, let's say a new woodworker is like, well, I'm making these things. I think they're pretty good, but they're not selling because no one sees them. What do I do? What do you tell that person?
00:20:12
Speaker
There are so many avenues to market your work. So I suppose right off the jump, the question is, is the object you're making interesting? Or do you have an interesting story to tell about it? Because if it's not, you're never going to make actual money on that thing.
00:20:29
Speaker
Um, so that's your first question. If you do have an interesting story to tell about it, wonderful. Figure out what audience wants to hear that because different audiences want to hear different stories. Social media is one audience. Craft shows are another audience. Gallery are another audience. Like that's identify what story you're trying to tell them. What audience will resonate with that and then start building connections in that space. All right. So that's part of creating a niche for yourself.
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. You might make the most interesting cutting boards in the world, and if you bring them to a gallery, people are gonna be like, what the fuck am I gonna do with a cutting board? But if you bring them to a craft show, people, or fairs, things like that, people might be blown away by it. I see, I see.
00:21:18
Speaker
All right. So that's the third step. So passion leads to mastery, and then you have to create a niche. And as we've discussed, it's like, how do you create a niche? It really is a skill. Let's get sales and marketing. I think the three of us have largely relied on social media because there's no middleman. We can do it ourselves. And it's free. And it's free. Yeah. And then if you create a niche, the conventional wisdom is you will profit, and you'll now be able to make a living.
00:21:47
Speaker
Now what are some of the assumptions built into that stuff? Hmm.
Pricing Strategies in Art
00:21:56
Speaker
I'm just going to let the awkward silence sit because he wants to say the answer. No, I don't know. I mean, I guess. I could see it in his face. No, no, no. I just figured it's my turn to offer an answer as to what I don't really have. And you said like nothing there, buddy. Well, that's because you two are fucking talking so much. So, yeah, the fact that you'll create a niche means you'll profit. I think that largely depends, number one, on the quality of the work.
00:22:22
Speaker
If it, and whether it's craft or art, I'm not going to get into that whole thing, but art has a much more wide open price point than craft. Cause if it's craft, people will comparison shop who wants to spend 10 times on a cutting board, what they could get a similar cutting board for one times the price. Right. So with craft people have.
00:22:44
Speaker
comparisons to make and to judge value. With art, they're usually one of a kind on the earth. So there's no comparisons to make and you can ask whatever price you want. So that's part of the idea that you might profit. Another part is how much throughput are you producing?
00:23:05
Speaker
throughput? Well, meaning like how many items can you make in a month to sell and sell them? Like if you need to pay a mortgage
00:23:15
Speaker
How many items do you need to make and sell in a month? Even if you have a niche, even if you're a master at it, only making one item per month. Boy, you have to ask a lot of money for that one item to make your rent or make your mortgage pay. Also, not for nothing. Making an item in a month is a fucking, that's a bear in and of itself. Yeah, right. Especially one that's worth the income that you need to pay all your bills.
00:23:39
Speaker
And if you have to make like, say 20 of them, you're going to probably end up hating it by the end of the month. This brings up two great questions. Number one is, does passion ultimately lead to hating it because of repetition? That's the first question.
00:23:57
Speaker
I feel like that's very individual. So I know like for me and Paul, I know you're the same, Jen. I think you're the same. Doing anything twice, I'm bored by the third time. Boring. I fucking hate it. By the third time, it's the death of my soul. Because the interesting part has been taken out. I figured out how to do it. So there's no intellectual engagement, right? There's even been, oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:24:23
Speaker
No, well, so there are there are people, however, that thrive in the process. And by tweaking the process, they find that engagement, they find that intellectual stimulation. So I don't want to discount that, too. Just, you know, the three of us sitting up on our high horses being like, we never repeat our work because there are people who find a great deal of joy in those minor tweaks that happen to make things better.
00:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there have been a couple collaborations I've done with Paul. We've made two of them, like the everyday tray things, is that what you call them? We made two of them. We had more people wanting them. I know we could have made more money doing them, but I was like, nope, I'm done. Two was more than enough. And we made two tea boxes, and we were kind of done after that too.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, but thankfully I was able to do like two different images on the top. So it probably sucked more for you than it did for me. It was okay. But you're right, Eric, repetition is the death of me. And that's terrible for business. Terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Because you never get the efficiency gains of repetition, of working out a system.
00:25:41
Speaker
You're always one of a kind. You're always at your efficiency low, at your lowest. This is why I tell people I'm a terrible businessman because I can't make the same object and that is where business is. That's the way to make a profit. Now, the flip side of that is I have a
00:26:00
Speaker
like system would be an overstatement perhaps, but I understand the format of content, which is where the majority of my business is. And that I can do without thinking. So that is in a sense, the repetition of it, right? Same camera angles, same kind of rhythm. Like I know how that's going to play out on a short form versus a long form. So that component of it is down to a science for lack of a better term.
00:26:24
Speaker
But the object itself, like that, the content is a vehicle to allow me to make the objects that I'm interested in making. So it comes again to the question of like, what, what part is the work? What part is the job versus the creative aspect of it?
00:26:41
Speaker
So for me, the reason I can survive and do one-of-a-kind work all the time is because I have a job. A J-O-B allows that flexibility. And so Eric, that reminds me of an article you wrote recently where you were sort of suggesting like, maybe full-time's not for everyone. Maybe for some people, it's okay to have woodworking as a hobby because it gives you freedom to pursue whatever you'd like to pursue in the shop.
00:27:08
Speaker
Well, I think that's an important thing to acknowledge for a lot of individuals. Like if you just enjoy making things and you don't necessarily want to run a small business, then there's no reason to go full time. Like you can just make objects. And and I think it's actually really important for the health of the craft to have people who are really fucking good at this craft.
00:27:35
Speaker
who don't have the obligation of running a business full time, who can just push the boundaries to continually just grow the craft in new ways, right? We have all of these new technologies at our disposal, and every one of them is being utilized to make a profit rather than to push the craft forward.
00:27:54
Speaker
So I think having people who like, like you, who are fully employed and can take these technologies and go, well, what can it really do? Let's see what it can be interesting at doing and not necessarily worry about efficiencies that can make for interesting work. And I think that's important for the craft longterm.
00:28:11
Speaker
Do you consider that person then a hobbyist then instead of like, I feel like when you, like at least in regards to this question, it was more like, are you trying to make a job out of it to make lots of money or are you trying to be happy and maybe make just a little bit of money? And when I think of a hobbyist, I don't usually think of them trying to make any money.
00:28:34
Speaker
Well, Jen, this is a great segue into a piece of research I did for this episode because I like to do research in every episode. Of course you did. I was thinking, oh my God. Throwing stones. Nerds are cool now. Not saying that you are, but most nerds are cool.
00:28:54
Speaker
Nerds are cool. Not you, Paul, but most are the first of all. All right. I'm not even going to get into that. But I was just curious. I was just curious. How much do artists typically make? How much money do they typically make? And I found a study within the last five years who they went out and they they they asked many, many artists thousands what they make per year. And then they created some interesting graphs.
00:29:24
Speaker
Can I ask before you give the information? Can I ask were there specifications as to who falls under the the tag of artist? I think these were people who God, I don't know, Eric. I'm not sorry. I don't know the real nitty gritty. OK. All right. So 50 percent of those asked fell within a certain amount of income per year. Do you want to guess what it is?
00:29:55
Speaker
50%. 50%. What was the income that they fell in? I'm going to say.
00:30:02
Speaker
30 to 40 K 30. That's exactly what I was going to say. 30 to 40. 30% were, sorry. 50% of artists were between one and $5,000 and interesting. Wow. Yeah. Ouch. The next bracket, the next after, so that's 50% right there. Now we're dividing up the remaining 50%. 21, 20%. We're in the five to 10 K a year.
00:30:31
Speaker
and only 13% Eric were in the 20K plus. 13%. It may as well be one in 10 artists make more than 20K a year. That is super depressing.
00:30:47
Speaker
Well, so all right, I'm going to come at it from from the opposite standpoint, Jen, because I want to attack this from the idea when we like first fell in love with whatever art form we have now for us again, it's wood. Whatever that thing is that you first fell in love with the idea that you could make five thousand dollars like you could get paid for your work. And you know, listen, five thousand dollars. That's a new fucking planer.
00:31:15
Speaker
Like that's a new tool every year. And over a decade, you outfit your shop with amazing tools that allow you to be better at what you do and more efficient in your work. Like that hobby process, right? Like that is a self sustaining hobby. And that little bit of encouragement keeps you coming back to try the next thing.
00:31:35
Speaker
So, I wonder how much of it is the greed that jumps on our shoulder. The moment you make a dollar, you go, well, I should be making 10 because fucking Jerry over here. He's like 11 Jerry Jerry fucking Jerry man. Son of a bitch. So, I can't trust them. Eric, you know, Jerry and
00:31:59
Speaker
Jerry obviously knows how to do something that you don't, which is pricing. So that's the last component of our four part. I want to come back to our four part where, you know, passion leads to mastery leads to creating an itch leads to profit. The last piece that we haven't talked about is in the profit is how do you price it? How do you price your work to make a living at it? So I thought it might be interesting for all of us to offer how we price because everyone wants to know that. Sure.
00:32:30
Speaker
So I'll, I'll start by saying how I priced things when I was fully employed by teaching, right? I priced objects based on whether or not I wanted to do them.
00:32:46
Speaker
Like it was just like, I don't, I don't have, I don't have any stink skin in the game, right? I can pay my mortgage. I can buy my groceries. So if I want to do this thing, this might take me a month worth of work. I'll do it for a thousand bucks. Like what, you know, like, or $250 or a hundred dollars. Like it doesn't matter.
00:33:06
Speaker
Uh, so that was where I started. And then with the content game, it was similar. It was the, uh, I don't know how much this is worth. Like, will you give me 50 bucks and some tools to like make content around these things? Because I just want to explore this idea. And so if I get the tools and then I get the money to pay for the material, then I'm not expending anything and I can build a portfolio.
00:33:34
Speaker
So it sounds like it's a process of start small and build it build up into the price over time. Okay. Yeah. So for me, um, I started pricing by probably looking at similar items. I guess I would start with like, what are similar items typically priced at? And I would try to sell them. So I have a small story. So when I was first getting into like copper pig, I made a series of six tee boxes and each one was unique.
00:34:03
Speaker
And I said, I don't, geez, I don't know how to price these. And so what I did is I sold them on Instagram. I put them up for sale on Instagram and I put the first one up at $400. I said, okay, this is available. Uh, you know, tee box.
00:34:22
Speaker
It's sold instantly within five minutes. And I was like, oh shit, did I under price that? Okay, so the next one I put it 450. It also sold almost immediately. Okay, that's two. I have six.
00:34:37
Speaker
The third one, I put it 500. It also sold immediately. I was like, shit. Were they all identical to like all six? No, they're all different, but they're selling way too fast. Like economic theory will tell you if it sells instantly, you're probably under pricing it. So by the time I got to the fifth one, I had moved the price up to almost six hundred and fifty dollars. And now it's set. It's set for a month.
00:35:05
Speaker
And that was data. That wasn't a loss to me. I mean, it hurts your ego a little bit, but you have to get over that shit. And it sat for a month. And then I took the price down about $100 to $550. And then it sold within a reasonable amount of time. And the sixth one also sold within a reasonable amount of time at $550. So in essence, the market and the time it took to sell these six items, it was sort of an experiment. It told me what the price point was for that item.
00:35:34
Speaker
And that's sort of how I've learned over time, whether it sits or whether it sells. And that's been kind of the experimentation of listing a price, seeing if it sells or not, that has educated me onto what price point I can ask for my work based on the quality of my work and the size of my audience.
00:35:55
Speaker
So I wonder, that was the early days of Copper Pig. And so you had people who were interested in the objects who might not have been following you for a long time, invested in you as a human being. Now, I'm going to assume that it's slightly different. Maybe you'll come to this, but I assume that the audience who is approaching you now is so invested in your work
00:36:20
Speaker
And you as a human being that that price point is different. That's exactly how it is these days. So when I get asked to do a commission, they're willing to accept my price because they want, they want my work. And I get to say the price I want and they say, absolutely. Cause they know it's not going to be cheap because nothing is cheap that has that kind of attention to detail anymore. There's so many hundreds, like hundreds of steps for each piece now.
00:36:44
Speaker
so yeah you're exactly right Eric and that comes back to something you said earlier you're buying the artist not necessarily the art and and that's a progression maybe when you're first getting started it's you know they don't know you as the artist so they are we're buying the art and then over time it switches so Jen how about you
00:37:04
Speaker
It's kind of something similar like when I first started doing pet portraits. Obviously, this was a long time ago. I would charge what I thought would be, oh, this would be awesome if I could get... I mean, it was so long ago. I don't remember what price it is. Let's say $100.
00:37:20
Speaker
Yeah, no problem. Okay, next one, I might charge a little bit more. Yeah, no problem. Like kind of the same progression as Paul. And I eventually got to a point where I just made a price list. And when somebody asked for a commission, I would just hand that out. And then I started getting screwed over because somebody would want a dog that had like a brindle coat and it would take me twice as long as say like a yellow lab.
00:37:45
Speaker
I had to- Yeah, totally know what a brindle coat is, so that makes sense. They're the beautiful Betty. She's got all different patches of color on her. Beautiful Betty, Eric. That's my dog. Beautiful Betty. She's got some real sex appeal. Yes, she does. I eventually started
00:38:07
Speaker
charging. I wouldn't give out my price ahead of time. I would request photos first and then I would give a price estimate. And I was still getting mostly yeses at that point. And I think that's because I had gotten to a point where I had a large client base, a large following. And at that point they were wanting me and not just I'm not just some other pet portrait artist on on computer.
00:38:36
Speaker
So she's she tapped out really she showed her the fact that she's secretly an android. So just to give folks an idea of the scale of your work are we still talking about like the kind of pendants that you are doing.
00:38:58
Speaker
I usually, no. I mean, I still do like the little ornament size ones. I just finished one that was about this big.
00:39:08
Speaker
Hey, this is an audio medium. How big is this thing? Oh, yes. Sorry. I'm watching myself. It's about yay large. Why can't everybody see me? It was like 12 by 12, roughly. Okay, all right. That was one of the bigger wood burning portrait pieces I've done, which is obviously not all that huge, but it's bigger than most of what I've done.
00:39:37
Speaker
Again, I'm not really taking that many pet portrait commissions anymore. When somebody does get on my list, I can pretty much ask for whatever I want at this point because otherwise it's not worth it for me to do it because I'm going to get burnt out if I just keep going. It's the bucket price.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, Jen, you know, I put, uh, you know, when I listed our tee boxes, our Koi tee boxes. Yeah. Yes. Yep. When I, when I, they sold instantly, they sold before they were in 50% complete. And when I put them on my website for sale, like for the future sale, I put the, we don't really want to make it again price.
00:40:14
Speaker
Yeah. Sorry. And we still had people ask after that. So, and Jen, if memory serves correctly, there is a certain person, me, by the way. Yes. I also often come to Paul when I don't know what to charge. Well, I wasn't going to say that, but I did say to you, Jen, why don't you raise your prices?
Adjusting Prices Based on Demand
00:40:34
Speaker
You're getting yeses all the time. You need to make sure you hear no, at least
00:40:39
Speaker
20, 30, 40% of the time, right? Yeah. Because if 90% are saying yes, you're undercharging.
00:40:48
Speaker
Well, now I'm the one saying no about 40 percent of the time. That's a good problem. That's exactly where you want to be. Yeah. Yeah. But I also don't want to skim over the fucking price because like the the the question of this episode is like at what point how do you differentiate between art and
00:41:10
Speaker
work, quote unquote, right? And the fuck it price takes the thing that you want to do or did want to do and turns it then into work because every time you actually get accepted at the fuck it price, there's I and I get you I know both of you have done this and I know everybody listening has had this that sinking in the butt in their stomach and they just go fuck
00:41:31
Speaker
Now I got to actually make the thing. Yeah. And then it becomes work and then it becomes work, you know, and that's fine because you're making like what you feel like you should be making at that. Yeah, it's a good. But then it just becomes a job. It becomes so worth it for that one time. Well, and it becomes the vehicle that allows you to make the thing that you actually want to make. So what's the differentiation to be had between being employed
00:41:55
Speaker
and having a passion in a hobby versus a thing that you don't want to make, but it sells well. And then that being the vehicle that allows you to make other things that you actually are interested in engaged in. All right. So this, this Eric is the, I think, you know, the final sort of resting point of this conversation. Is it a, is it an evolution?
00:42:18
Speaker
between profit and passion. So like maybe early on, you have to be profit-driven. But then when you establish yourself as an artist and you're getting a higher price point, you can shift the equilibrium more towards passion projects or sprinkling them in because you're getting a higher price point for your work otherwise. Does this change over time throughout your career?
00:42:44
Speaker
I think it does. And I think, um, I think the hard part for us as a society is our hyper fixation on immediate returns, right? Like the quarterly returns kind of thing. And what you're talking about is how do you think about what you want to be doing a year, five years, 10 years from now? How do you set yourself up for that? Because you're going to have to do work to get there. Uh, and
00:43:14
Speaker
Finding how to, I don't know, hit that balance that allows you to get to a point where you can pursue the passion side of the thing rather than the business side of the thing. It means you're gonna have to bust your ass sometimes and make some things that you're just like, all right, well, this is the thing that's going to whatever it is. Pay the bills or get me in front of the right audience that might be willing to listen to and be interested in purchasing my work later on down the road for a higher price point. Make content.
00:43:42
Speaker
Do shows trap, whatever it is, right? Like that's the thing that sets you up for success later on. Yeah. You can't get to that point without doing, putting in the work first. Yeah. The miserable work that may have started out like, Oh, this is fun. And.
00:44:01
Speaker
Not so much. Well, you put in the work, Jen. Jen, I met you when you were putting in the work and you were burning out from putting in the work. Yeah, yep. And then I offered you these new woodworking items to put your pyrography on besides Aspen slices. No, no, no.
00:44:17
Speaker
But I didn't mean it like that. Did it come off like... I didn't mean it like that. I offered you this new path. I said, why don't you just come follow me? I didn't offer it. Oh my god. I didn't mean it like that. Fuck both of you. I love me so much. Why don't you burn my shit instead? Welcome to the light.
00:44:43
Speaker
Hey, you're tired of doing pet portraits? Why don't you burn a pet portrait on top of my box instead? And he was worried about my head getting big. Are you two done yet? No. No. Okay, so first of all, fuck both of you. Second of all, I didn't mean it like that, but I suggested that Jen put her pyrography on other items.
00:45:13
Speaker
Mm hmm. Oh, you two. Yeah. I think no, I I think that that has been wildly successful. And I agree. And that that would tap Jen in to new audiences through and it did. And it did. Very grateful. Now, I know nothing about grateful is nothing like that. But it just brings up the point that like, as we're burning out engine, you keep doing a thumbs up on your screen. Yeah, you keep doing one of those. Sorry.
00:45:42
Speaker
As we burn out, I think we have to look for other ways to transition to sell items. So with that, I think we're at the 45 minute mark.
00:45:58
Speaker
I think we've touched on almost all of the issues about this that we wanted to. Does anyone want to offer like a summary statement about the original question? So was, you know, how do you balance profit versus passion?
Balancing Passion with Profit: Necessary Discomfort?
00:46:13
Speaker
And that post gen that you saw, follow the passion. Now that we've talked and shaken all this out, what's our summary statement?
00:46:23
Speaker
In theory, follow the passion is what everybody wants to do, right? And I just think you have to figure out your own way of getting there and not being miserable in the process. And sometimes you have to be a little bit miserable. But yeah, I think you just got to find a way to make both work like what I'm trying to do now. Do a little bit of work. Say you have your time for passion projects then sprinkled in between.
00:46:53
Speaker
Um, so you're not getting burned out. Yeah. Yeah. There's a, um, there's a British philosopher. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but, uh, he said something to the effect of, uh, and I quote, uh, you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, uh, you get what you need.
00:47:19
Speaker
That was really You both you are both like who is uh, was it Descartes who was Well, I'm gonna have to end this segment on that Eric
00:47:33
Speaker
This is nothing more profound than that shit you just said. All right. I'll think of his name later. I'll let you guys know. All right. Listen. Hey, you know what? Fuck pricing. Fuck businesses. I want to know how much you guys know about wood.
Trivia Game: Wood Knowledge
00:47:51
Speaker
And I'm talking about trees. Let's get your mind out of the goddamn gutter, Paul. That's Jen. That's Jen.
00:47:58
Speaker
No lesson. Don't don't don't don't kink shame. OK. Here. Here's where we're at. I've got a few facts about trees. We're going to play a game and we're going to see who knows more about wood. Hmm. It's me for awkward silence. It's so. All right. Here is buddy.
00:48:17
Speaker
We're going to play to seven. It's the best of seven situation. Whoever gets more wins. Whoever loses has to take a shot. That's the rules that I just made up. All right.
00:48:32
Speaker
You commonly find this in multi-species cutting boards. It's a beautiful color that suggests royalty and its native range is central in South America. After this tree is cut, the heartwood transforms into a rich color, which gives this wood its name. Hobbywood workers use it for small scale projects like knives, pens, and bottle stoppers. I have a guess. Jen, do you want to guess first?
00:49:02
Speaker
Nope. Eric, I'm going to say Kingwood. Oh, good guess, but incorrect. Oh, you said royalty or you said like. And it's it's going to make sense, Jen. I can picture what it looks like. It's purpley, right? Purpley red.
00:49:24
Speaker
You're not wrong. Oh, shit. Really? I can't think of the name of it. That's so a Purple Heart, Jen. Jesus Christ. All right. I'm giving it to Paul. Paul gets one. Yeah, but I guess wrong first. I thought it was. You did. You did. Yeah, but I thought Purple Heart was too obvious of it. And you said royalty. And I was like, oh, it's Kingwood, Camatillo. I know.
00:49:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's the rich color though, Kingwood, rich color. Yeah. Purple is the color of royalty. Sorry. I just want to call bullshit on that rich color, which turns brown. Which turns brown in like a fucking week. Yeah. Purple to brown in like five years. So all your purple shit out there, everyone making stuff. Did we lose Paul? Oh, there he is. That was weird.
00:50:07
Speaker
Oh, sorry. Everyone making shit out of Purple Heart, they're going to be sorely disappointed when it turns brown in five to ten years. There is. There is. Listen, I don't want to shame anybody right now, but the moment I see Purple Heart in a project is the moment I go, oh, you've been making things for less than three years because you don't know that it's going to turn brown immediately. All right. Next question.
00:50:30
Speaker
The Coney Island Boardwalk, which opened in 1923, was made from this wood. It's extremely hard and durable. This wood is so dense that it sinks in water. Another interesting fact, it has a class A fire rating similar to iron and steel. I got this. Jen, go ahead. Go ahead, Jen. Ironwood? Ah, incorrect. Good guess, though. Good guess, Paul.
00:50:56
Speaker
Well, there's a couple woods that satisfy the criteria. The first guess is ePay.
00:51:03
Speaker
Got it. Nailed it. Got it. You know how I know that? Because my front porch I made out of ePay. That's how I know. I've never even heard of it. It's a South American hardwood. I tried burning it, Eric. I fact checked the fire rating. It didn't light up for a long, long time. And it's so hard, you can't drive a nail through it.
00:51:27
Speaker
You have to, for screwing it down, you have to do like a pilot holes and all your saw blades have to be carbide tipped to cut it. Wow. It's miserable. But my front porch is 17 years old and it looks like it's three years old. This stuff is amazing.
00:51:46
Speaker
It's an incredible wood. It sucks, but it's an incredible wood. All right. Question number three. Uh, this wood is famous for its use in Hawaiian ukuleles. Hmm. Piece of cake. Jen. Yeah, that's a lie out. Aloha wood.
00:52:12
Speaker
All right, I desperately want the name of this episode to be Aloha Wood, but Aloha comma wood. Jen, that's a very different kind of wood. I assure you. That is the name of an episode on a website. Paul? Yeah, that's the name of a honeymoon suite out of local sandals. Sandals?
00:52:39
Speaker
Aloha wood. Oh my Jesus Christ. It's gotta be, it's gotta be Koa. It's Koa.
00:52:48
Speaker
Aloha wood. This is fucking amazing. Funny fact about Cola. I've had a lot of Cola. I've had a lot of Aloha wood in my shop and no two pieces look similar. It is so variable that it actually makes it difficult to build with because you don't get much from one batch. And so whatever you make with it has to be really small because otherwise it doesn't match itself.
00:53:13
Speaker
I wonder if that has to do with the soil where it grows or if that has to do with the fact that it's not farmed at all. It's always a forest. I don't know. We're just being wood nerds now. All right. Question number four. Close to 80% of this wood is used for making tool handles. Ooh.
00:53:38
Speaker
Mm hmm. Oh, so just to clarify, I only know what woods are out there if I can burn on them. So if I can't burn on it. OK, well, there's there's a lot of other woods out there. I don't know how to tell you. I know. I'm just saying I'm clueless. Tool handles. Tool handles. I have a guess. I have a guess. OK, Eric, I'm going to guess rosewood.
00:54:05
Speaker
Interesting guess. I like that. Uh, given the, the lack of availability of Rosewood, but that's incorrect. Oh God, see Stanley planes for so long had Rosewood handles. I thought, Oh, Jen, I really don't know. You might. I don't know if you burned on this. I will give you a hint. It is an American domestic. Wait, Eric, can I give a second guess? I, my original guess was this one. Okay. And you want to go first? Go ahead.
00:54:34
Speaker
I was gonna maybe guess poplar. No way, it's too soft. Incorrect. Eric, beach was my original first guess. Beach would be a very good guess, but that is incorrect. Okay, what is it? It's hickory.
00:54:48
Speaker
No shit. Yeah, hickory is not used for a lot anymore because we don't tend to make, you know, hickory used to be used a lot for for chair seats as well because it's so interlaced because it's such a stringy wood. So using it for tool handles makes a lot of sense for like chisel handles and shit that you're going to bang on.
00:55:06
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, I don't have any hickory in my shop at all. Not on tool handles and not in board. So I call bullshit on that. All right. A lot of Rosewood. What? Rosie would question number five. Paul's up two to nothing right now. Question number five. This would smells like leather when it's freshly milled. Oh,
00:55:36
Speaker
Leather? Leather. Mm-hmm. Oh.
00:55:42
Speaker
I don't mill my own wood, so I have no idea. I do. My girlfriend lives in Europe, so. That's a slow burn. That took me a while. Eric, can you give us a hint? Is it a domestic?
00:56:10
Speaker
Uh, it is not a domestic leather, but it is a, it is an extremely common wood. Um, I have never experienced it smelling like leather, but, uh, it is, I'll give you another hint. It is.
00:56:27
Speaker
oft used in marine settings. Oh, oh, indeed. Yeah, it is. I have very little experience with teak, so I don't know what it smells like. But you said marine and that told me it was. Yeah, that's that's the giveaway. Did you know it smells like leather? I've never used teak.
00:56:49
Speaker
I've used it a couple of times. Um, I have never considered that it smells like leather, but maybe next time I use it, which is rare. Uh, I will keep that in mind. Uh, this one is, I, maybe it's a, uh, uh, easy one to get. I think it's an interesting one though. What American would is used for the making of long bows?
00:57:17
Speaker
longbows it's a very traditional wood tends to grow uh in low bushy forms unless cultivated into a larger tree form holly it's a good guess that also grows in bushy form but uh it is not used in bows i don't know eric magnolia i don't know magnolia oh sage orange oh really
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Does that, does that, does that also turn Brown with time? Yes, it does. Yes. I've actually, for those of you who are watching.
00:57:54
Speaker
I've got a long bow right here that I made in 2014. So this is the brown that happens now. Eric. Eric. And this is what it used to look like. Whoa. Why the fuck do you have a long bow in your house? And just sitting there handy. Because I made it. You don't? Eric. Listen. Well, hold on. Hold on. I live in Philly. What if somebody breaks in? Eric, what if you shot with your long bow? Targets?
00:58:24
Speaker
And humans, but that's neither here nor there. We'll just get back to the thing. That's so weird. You're like, I just happen to have a long boat made of Osage orange right here. Sure, sure. All right. All right. Last one. Last one. This one I did not know, but it's interesting. This wood is the primary material used for the modern day pencil. Ticonderoga.
00:58:54
Speaker
Aloha, Awood. Ticonderoga is actually my only fan's name. I'm going to say beach again. I don't know what. Ticonderoga. No, incense cedar. Cedar? Which I don't even know what that is. Incense cedar, meaning I would imagine that's a cedar that doesn't smell the way cedar does.
00:59:23
Speaker
I've never even heard of that. So out of seven with a total of three to zero, Paul wins. Yeah, but I give Jen one point for Aloha Wood. Aloha Wood is a bonus point. That's for sure. Three to one.
00:59:39
Speaker
Wow, Jen, you suck it. You suck at that game. I warned you right up front. I was going to suck at this. She said unless I can burn it, I don't know it. Exactly. You have not named anything that I could burn. So. All right. Bonus question. This wood is technically a grass grass palm.
01:00:03
Speaker
I was going for a weed joke, but yeah, it is black palm. I knew it. Me.
01:00:12
Speaker
So mature. All right. All right. With that, I think we need to transition into some mermaid erotica. But before we do that, we need to thank our patrons. So Paul, you want to take it there? Yeah. Since the last episode, we have three new patrons, Candace, David, Candace Price, David Murphy, and Tristan Juracek.
01:00:35
Speaker
We appreciate all three of you as we do all of our other patrons because it pays for our hosting. It pays for some of our mic. I don't know if you guys can tell, but we have mic upgrades. By the way, that reminds me, Jennifer's using a mic that was so graciously lent to us by our friend KJ sawdust Keith. He's like, yeah, I just happen to have high-end mics sitting around in my closet. I can send one. Thank you so much, Keith. That's how he lives his life.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah. Just so gracious. So he sent Jen that mic this week. Thanks, Keith. You're a sweetheart. Yes. Thank you.
01:01:10
Speaker
And so we thank our patrons, you know, that helps defray the cost of the podcast. And it really shows a lot of support for us. We appreciate that. So now we transition to the after show. And just for you guys, we have a super special after show. Now, many of you may not know this. Jen's dying already. But Jennifer is a budding author.
01:01:39
Speaker
of mermaid erotica. That is a complete and utter lie. That is, well, half of it's a lie. Which half, Jen? The top or the bottom? The erotica. How do mermaids have intercourse?
01:02:01
Speaker
That's an excellent question. This is what we're going to explore in the smell of tuna. This is my glottalies and something. Jen, what's the name of your book? Hold on, hold on. If we can give you some advice, I feel like the scent of tuna is a little more sensual than the smell of tuna.
01:02:18
Speaker
I think I think it's like fire and fins or some shit. What's the name of the book? You guys are going to lose patrons after this. You know that. I think we're going to gain a lot of patrons, actually. Jen, what's the what's the name of your book of fins and fire? Oh, I don't even want to tell you. OK, it's I small tuna. All right. On that note. So in the after show, just to be clear, in the after show, we're going to talk about the arc of the trilogy that you're writing right now.
01:02:47
Speaker
Mm hmm. And about the character. Paul is not doing anything. Paul is a fanfic. He's he's fully engaged in this situation. What's the name of our main character? I have not released that. I do not believe you. No, I really have not. I promise. This is for our patrons, though. Is this is this a world premiere?
01:03:11
Speaker
No, it is considered unacceptable to be sharing that stuff if you're trying, we can call them that, yeah. What's his name? FinneasTunamen. FinneasTunamen. FinneasTunamen. FinneasTunamen. I love that. 50 Shades of Tuna. All right, we're going to it. We'll see you all on the after show. Thanks everyone for the good discussion. Okay, bye. Bye.