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Nate Tobey - Love Is Not Scarce
101 Plays1 year ago
I was so excited and nervous for this one! I talk a lot about the importance of mental health. The man with whom I do that work, Nate Tobey, agreed to come on the pod! There's a lot in this one, I hope you find it helpful. I see Nate remotely on video calls and it's how I do so much important work. Go check out his website. He also mentioned and recommends Heidi Priebe on YouTube and I also think she's great!
Instagram - @wishyouallthebestpod
wishyouallthebestpod@gmail.com
music - "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch -https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch - Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome back to Wish You All the Best, a personal podcast about modern dating. I'm Scott Simmons. This episode I'm really excited about. I'll be honest, I was really nervous about it. This one, I've been seeing therapists for a long time. The person who I see right now for my
00:00:36
Speaker
professional mental health needs, is a guy named Nate Toby, and he's my guest this time around. I really, really enjoyed our conversation. I do want to say up front for this one, as always, welcome to Zero Production Value Podcasting. Something is going what's going weird with my mic or my audio. I'm going to do my best to fix it up as best as I can.
00:00:59
Speaker
I can't make any promises. The good news is I think Nate sounds really good in this recording. And luckily he's the one that's kind of talking the most here because he's got the most interesting stuff to say. So bear with me. I hope you can put up with it. I'm going to do my best to make it sound okay.
The Role of Therapy in Modern Dating
00:01:17
Speaker
And yeah, this conversation, you know, so much of what I'm trying to do with this little passion project is to
00:01:26
Speaker
you know, encourage men or just try and awkwardly and messily have conversations, have vulnerable conversations that are focused on men and modern dating, right? How we're supposed to go out there and try and find that romantic connection that I think we, you know, deserve.
00:01:48
Speaker
and it's tricky and it's tough so this whole thing is trying to make space for how to do that. A lot of that ends up being about like the dating apps and like what's dating like and and you know the whole process of meeting somebody and figuring out where you're going to go to dinner or drinks and and figuring out if you like each other. But for me like so so much of this work, so much of the whole project of
00:02:12
Speaker
trying to figure out who I should bring into my life and who I should connect to to find that like deep, fulfilling love, right? Let's call it what it is. So much of that project begins with me working on myself. And so I'm really, really excited to have Nate on here because he's one of the really important people who helps me do that. And so yeah, this just kind of needs to be a part of the puzzle for me or part of the conversation for me.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, so again, my apologies for the audio stuff. If you like what you hear, if you're listening to this and you're like, hey, you know what, maybe I should give therapy a try, go to natobecounseling.com. That's N-A-T-E-T-O-B-E-Y, counseling.com. I'll put the link in the show notes.
00:03:02
Speaker
I recommend him. He's awesome. Anyway, I just wanted to put that plug in there. I would be remiss if I didn't. Yeah, needless to say, I think he's great. And we do remote mental health sessions, whatever you want to call it. And it's great, yeah. Okay, so with no further ado, here's my conversation with Nate Toby. Enjoy.
00:03:32
Speaker
Okay, Nate Toby, welcome to wish you all the best. You are and have been for I think a little over two years now, my therapist. I've seen other therapists for a long time before then, but I've been super happy
00:03:52
Speaker
with you as my therapist. I think we've done a lot of great work. We don't have to get into the details on that here. Maybe we will. I don't know. But I'm so excited to have you as a guest on this podcast. I used to say on this podcast that this was a podcast for men who go to therapy. And I stopped saying that because I felt a little weird about gatekeeping.
00:04:16
Speaker
um who who should like about gatekeeping who would be welcome and saying that only if you could like afford therapy or only if you were ready for therapy that that that i was willing to kind of like invite you to the conversation i stopped saying that because while i find therapy super duper valuable um i i don't know i just i kind of wanted to come from a place of like inclusivity but i have to say i have found my work with therapists and particularly you man
00:04:46
Speaker
so, so very valuable, especially as it pertains to a lot of what I'm talking about here, which is dating, trying to find romance. I think for men, I think for me, I can at least say it's been a really, really difficult, challenging, interesting thing. And my work with you has been such a huge part of that. So in many ways, this episode is long, long, long overdue because
00:05:13
Speaker
In so many of these episodes on this podcast, I talk about, I would say maybe like the tactical details of dating, of what it's like to be out there having conversations, but so much of that work sort of, for me personally, begins with working with someone like you. So yeah, welcome. By way of introduction, you've been my therapist for, yeah, a little over,
00:05:40
Speaker
two years, and I think while you know so, so much about me, I maybe don't know a whole lot about you. I know that the lady who used to cut my hair recommended you very highly, and that's how I first found you. We did a couple sessions, and we just clicked, and I was like, yeah, this is someone that I can really go deep with. So yeah, if I can hand the mic over to you, tell my audience kind of who you are, and then, yeah, let's get into it.
Nate Toby's Therapeutic Journey
00:06:10
Speaker
OK, well, thanks for having me, Scott. It's an honor. It's a lot of fun to get to do something a little different and talk about what we're up to.
00:06:23
Speaker
Well, first, I just want to acknowledge that you are calling me your therapist, which you are welcome to do if you like. But for your listeners, I'm not technically a therapist. I'm a certified Hakomi practitioner. Hakomi is an approach to therapy and counseling that is very rooted in mindfulness and in the body, like a body awareness and the present moment.
00:06:50
Speaker
And it's a comprehensive approach to working with people. And I almost became a licensed therapist, but I actually decided that the other training that I had was so good and so effective that I kind of learned everything I felt I needed to from mental health and counseling without actually completing the whole licensure. So technically I'm a coach or counselor.
00:07:15
Speaker
Maybe someday I'll actually go and do it, but it's valuable. I'm not taking anything away from it. I just didn't end up feeling it was necessary because I was feeling very effective in my work. So that's just a caveat. To say any more about me, I mean, I'm a relatively new convert to work.
00:07:41
Speaker
mental health work. I mean, I spent like 20 years as a media professional. I was the head of podcasts for American Public Media. I was the head of content for 10% Happier, which is a mindfulness app. That's really great. But as soon as I actually kind of went through my own mental health crisis back in
00:08:03
Speaker
2017-18 with burnout and depression and my marriage fell apart and largely because I was going through this kind of mental health challenge that led me to kind of really getting more interested in how to heal myself and what was going on with my own
00:08:25
Speaker
heart and body and mind. And then along the way kind of discovered that I really had a knack for it and loved it myself. But it was really through finding these kind of alternatives to what is considered traditional talk therapy that I really found something that I really, really loved.
00:08:47
Speaker
and that helped heal me. And then just turned out, I just really enjoyed it. So that's kind of how I switched over. I still do some media work, but I mostly focus on mental health these days.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, what else to say about it? I mean, Hakomi, which your listeners can look up if they want, it's H-A-K-O-M-I, Hakomi, and you've experienced some of this working with me, but it's very relational and sort of interactional and like we do a lot of experiments in the present moment that have to do with
00:09:27
Speaker
how to bring something that you're going through in your life into the room between us right now so that you can actually kind of workshop it and get a new the saying that I like with it is that what we need to change is not just understanding but it's experience we need new experience and so you know you could talk to me about your partner
00:09:51
Speaker
and that might give you understanding, but you could role play what you're gonna actually say to your partner and what comes up in your body when you say it, and that's a new experience. And that's just an example, but that's some of how I work and what is emphasized in Hakomi. That's awesome. I never actually knew the Hakomi thing. We've just always done the work. Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Yeah.
00:10:20
Speaker
I highly recommend that method. It's really, really special and beautiful. I'll say one more thing about it. Can I say one more thing about it? Absolutely, man. I had this moment of really falling in love with Okomi when I was on the fence about being a therapist.
00:10:38
Speaker
Um, I it felt it felt like a slog, you know when I thought about it like just sort of Sitting with people all day kind of like immersed in their like Their their problems, you know, it was just like wow that seems heavy You know, it seems heavy like I mean, I really care about people but is it gonna wear me out? It's gonna wear me down Am I gonna burn out and I knew a lot of people who did you know from being therapists? and then in hakomi, I remember starting it and
00:11:07
Speaker
The teacher saying, one of the foundational skills of Okomi is that you learn how to look at a person the way that you would look at a sunrise at any given moment that you see in a person the beauty or the sort of simple, you know, majesty of something in nature, like you're looking at something just beautiful.
00:11:35
Speaker
And it seems so trite or simple, but I remember him saying it, and I was just like, wow, I want to be a person. I want to become the person I would need to be, to be able to sit with anybody and see that sunrise in them. Wow. And that was their orientation. And it wasn't like a, it was just sort of like a practice, almost like a Buddhist or mindfulness practice of just finding that in myself.
00:12:05
Speaker
And then there's this other principle they use called organicity, which is basically like you're just following the process of being present, of sort of supporting what is coming with a lot of love and attention. And then it's sort of just like that I've learned that the healing that somebody needs, if they feel seen and held, if they feel that somebody is here and is seeing the best in them,
00:12:33
Speaker
that the healing that they need, it just kind of happens. It's actually like the sort of idea that a lot of I think more traditional therapy had of like a therapist is the like expert who knows what you need to do and it's kind of like prescribing you all this stuff like a doctor.
00:12:52
Speaker
that there is a different way, which is just to sort of have a lot more faith in the innate wisdom in a human being. And that if really the difference is just that we can't find our way alone, we have to do it together. And that's basically what I'm doing. I'm just sort of helping someone feel that I'm with you.
00:13:21
Speaker
and I'm rooting for you, and I'm making this kind of gentle space for you to kind of find your way. And I think it's a very ancient technology doing that, that Hakomi particularly helped me really tap into. And so really, at its best, the work doesn't take a huge amount of effort. I mean, for me, it takes being present, coming back to my heart,
00:13:50
Speaker
and having a lot of faith. And then, and certainly there are skills that I'm using, but over time they become very natural. Like I'm not, it's not like I'm having to like really toil to figure it out. It's just kind of happening as a flow. It's almost like I'm doing
00:14:09
Speaker
improv. I love improv music, improvisational music, and I trained in improv like comedy. And I think the kind of their approach to counseling that I'm using is very much improv based. It's about really just being in the moment and trusting it and going deeper into it. And then sort of what needs to happen emerges or unfolds from that kind of spirit of improvisation.
00:14:36
Speaker
And anyway, that's a long way of saying it's just a lot of fun. It turns out like I love my job. I mean, I have a lot of fun and it helps me grow. I'm always growing as a human being doing it.
00:14:49
Speaker
I love that. Oh man, okay, there's a million threads to pull on there. Like the whole thing about the improvisation of it or by kind of a going wherever it's going. Hearing you say that, I absolutely recognize that like in our sessions and like something that I would just to kind of like talk you up a little bit here like
00:15:10
Speaker
something that I'm always so impressed with whenever we meet. And to be clear, we do this virtually. Like here, you and I are looking at computer screens. And this is weird because usually when we do this, I'm talking about my feelings and probably crying somewhere in the 50 minutes. But here, we're doing a podcast. But every time we do this work, to kind of talk you up a little bit, I'm always kind of amazed that we can kind of get from me sort of
00:15:38
Speaker
info dumping about like what's happened in the past week or two to finding like the thing that needs a little space, the thing that really needs to kind of surface and that points to usually something deeper, often something that I've been working on for a while, right? That like I
00:16:02
Speaker
didn't really see, or I don't want to say couldn't really see, but at least didn't really see on my own and that having a professional, having you there to kind of, I don't know, point me the way or just like ask the right questions or ask questions. Yeah, it kind of gets me where I need to go and I don't know, I want to say like tunes me in better to kind of where I am with what I'm working with or
00:16:31
Speaker
You know what I mean? I guess I don't have the right words for this, because I'm not the professional. No, no, you're doing great. Yeah, yeah. OK, awesome. And that's something that I am looking to do.
Therapy vs. Traditional Community Support
00:16:44
Speaker
I mean, the simplest way of describing what you're saying is I'm always looking for how can I help you or anybody I work with go beyond an understanding of what's happening to having a new experience?
00:17:02
Speaker
You know, in other words, we're going out of just the head and into the present moment, into the body. You know, so like, in Hakomi, we call it assisted self-study. That you're trying to, you're sort of studying the way you're organized. And the only way to do that is you have to actually like do something. You know, you have to, you can't just talk about it. You have to do something. And so for instance, just to give your listeners an example,
00:17:31
Speaker
A really cool one we'll do sometimes is prompt. And a prompt is a short statement that I'll say to a client that's meant just to catalyze or spark some process to happen in the moment right now. And it will usually be like a nourishing statement that I actually imagine might be hard for them to take in. It's kind of the thing that they really want to hear, but is scary or difficult for them to believe. You know, like,
00:18:01
Speaker
uh like here's a classic one would be like uh um you're lovable just the way you are or like you know you're lovable just for being you right that's a tough one for me yeah right yeah okay there you go yeah
00:18:27
Speaker
Yeah. And then the purpose for that is that you get to work with what we call the nourishment barrier, which is basically like the thing we most want is also the thing that we've erected walls around in many cases because it's too scary or vulnerable or last time we had it, we got hurt or there's a whole variety of reasons that we do that. But then you get to explore that. It's like, oh, well, what's happening right now when you hear that statement?
00:18:53
Speaker
And I think that's a, like this is an example of how, you know, you could talk about your insecurities or about like how hard you feel like you have to work to get people to like you, but it's like, well, let's actually do something with it. You know, let's, I'll say this thing and then tell me what happens for you. Um, so that's just an example of like one of the many different, many, many, many different things that I'll do with people to sort of.
00:19:17
Speaker
use this container. We have this safe little thing where I don't want anything from you. It's a very clear agreement of what we're doing. It's a set amount of time. So you get to just do anything. We get to explore. Who are you? How do you relate to people? It's this really wonderful little space. But you have to use it. You have to do something with it.
00:19:41
Speaker
and there's so much you can do beyond just talking about the thing and that's kind of where i go and just to talk you up for a second this is a very unique experience for me that a client has the you know i don't know if i mean it takes courage but also just like a lot of self i guess um
00:20:00
Speaker
like self-regard or curiosity, but I just love that you're bringing your process or the fact that you do this work into the public in this way is I think it's a great model because this work is sometimes not well understood what people are doing in therapy or counseling. And it can still be stigmatized. And I think it's like, I encourage everybody to do it.
00:20:30
Speaker
I mean, you know, if this was, I'm sure at some point in our history when we lived in villages and had councils and had elders who were all part of our community, we didn't need therapists, we didn't need counselors, but today we really do. And so thanks for, you know, modeling the value of this work.
00:20:48
Speaker
Thank you, man. Okay, yeah, I'm taking notes over here. There's like 17 directions I want to go. Yeah, first and foremost, that's very much the way I see it. I think the modern world is just amazing in so many ways. I'm a big fan of plumbing. I work on the internet. I love a video game.
00:21:08
Speaker
There are so many aspects of the modern world that just are not what our minds, bodies, souls, call it whatever you want. It's just not what we are evolved to exist in. I don't know. Sometimes I'll say, I'm not afraid for the people. I'm not scared of the people who say that they need therapy. I'm almost a little bit afraid of the people who think they don't. If you are working properly in this world, we are very, very different human beings.
00:21:36
Speaker
Okay, so a big focus of this podcast of my work here is to try and have conversations or foster conversations mostly aimed at men around modern dating because it's fascinating to me. It's something that's a big deal in my life. And yeah, again, so much of the work that you and I do is really foundational to that. And I kind of want to dig into that a little bit because
00:22:03
Speaker
You and I do talk about dating and what I'm trying to do with dating, how it feels, how I'm coming to it.
00:22:10
Speaker
an interesting dynamic that I'm kind of interested to talk about. It's like kind of like the before and after, like the, what am I trying to say? Like the sequencing of this. Like sometimes I think it might be sort of intuitive to think that like, okay, I need to do a bunch of work on me before I can get out there and try to meet somebody to make sure that I am like done, or I am like, I don't know, ready, and then get out there. Or that like,
00:22:39
Speaker
I don't want to say like so much of this for me with our work I have found that like there really kind of isn't an order like a lot of Being out in the world relating to people seeing how that works for me like that's ends up kind of being a part of working on myself or like and also in a weird way that like like doing this work on myself and
00:23:05
Speaker
getting better at understanding myself really
Self-Work and Dating Readiness
00:23:08
Speaker
like fundamentally and drastically changes the experience or what I'm doing when I am trying to meet new people or when I am just trying to make new friends and I'm all over the place with this question but like I'm curious if there's anything that you want to talk about in there about like I don't know I think I used to have this idea that like I needed to kind of do work on myself
00:23:36
Speaker
heal my wounds or fix the errors on me, and then I would be ready for release into the general population. You know what I mean? But in our work together, in my experience, that's not really true. But I don't know. I feel like that's an impulse that some people have and that some people feel like, well, I would do therapy. I would need to put my life on pause, see a counselor for a while, work on my mental health, and then
00:24:06
Speaker
Release myself into the world a new version changed drastically or does that kind of make sense? I mean, that's a that's a I mean, that's a interesting concept. I mean I Yeah, I mean I would say like, you know look I mean life is for learning and
00:24:26
Speaker
So, I mean, you're gonna have experiences all the time that are challenging, that you're learning from. And, you know, that's the new experiences. And so to have a counselor or a therapist to talk to and process that with is hugely helpful. I mean, certainly don't need to not be living your life to do therapy with somebody. I mean, that's, your life is what brings in the best material for learning, you know? So, no, I mean, I would say that,
00:24:56
Speaker
I think there is, at the same time, there can be a space and time for choosing to focus on self inquiry rather than dating.
00:25:07
Speaker
I mean, I think that there is a place for that. Just because sometimes the attachment system that is present in dating can become so, depending on where you are in your own process of self discovery and healing and repair from childhood traumas, the attachment system of a relationship might be too overwhelming.
00:25:34
Speaker
for you to change it. In other words, it's like so, it's so continually activates. Let's say you have insecure attachment with most people do in this culture in some way. Sometimes you can just be so in it. It can be so confronting that doing the work with that person is not possible sometimes. And sometimes it is. That's why you have couples counseling and ultimately you hope it will be.
00:26:00
Speaker
but I think there can be a time and place for saying I want to just practice this in my life with my therapist and really go deep in terms of like getting to the root of my childhood experiences and like having corrective experiences and healing it and then be more prepared for how to track myself in a relationship. I mean that's the one thing I would say that yeah and that's a it's an outcome especially after a breakup or something that can be a really good time to focus on your
00:26:30
Speaker
project of working this out in a space with a therapist before jumping into the next relationship. So there is wisdom to that, but to the idea that like being in therapy means that you like wouldn't be dating in general. No, that doesn't make sense to me. Okay. Yeah. That's a fantastic answer to a very messy question, but yeah, you were picking up what I was trying to get at. Sure.
00:26:57
Speaker
OK, so we were talking a little bit when we were preparing about that book, The Game. Oh, yeah. And kind of a part of why I do this, I do think there's just so much like I can't claim to be an expert, but I just think there's so much garbage out there aimed at men about dating. Like if you're a guy and you go on the Internet and you're like,
00:27:17
Speaker
Man, I'm lonely. I can't figure out how to meet somebody who seems like they might be a good partner or whatever that means. You go looking and you find a lot of people who, I think it's safe to just call them grifters, who are selling you something or they're really peddling an ideology that I think is really engineered to
00:27:40
Speaker
in a predatory way, exploit a lot of the insecurity that men and women have. There's a different, I think, pool of problems there, but focusing on men, really just exploiting this insecurity that a lot of men feel these days.
00:27:58
Speaker
interesting place, I think, in Western culture, I would venture to say. But yeah, I guess we don't have to pick on the game in particular. I think that that book came out a long time ago, and I don't know. Well,
00:28:14
Speaker
Maybe it's worth picking on the book in particular, but there are so many people who are offering that kind of advice, and I think they're still out there.
Critique of Harmful Dating Advice
00:28:26
Speaker
I think it's hard for a lot of men to believe. Let me put it this way. I think that kind of advice is very easy for a lot of men to believe. The idea that
00:28:38
Speaker
I don't know that like feminism is actually bad for connecting or like this whole process of dating is Hard for me and so if there's some if someone comes along and says there's some universal truth And it's like well actually it's not your fault It's that women are doing it wrong or it's that the deck is stacked against you or you know all kinds of things That I think just basically avoid the concept that
00:29:09
Speaker
I can do work on myself and be more ready to meet another human being and be more skilled at finding another human being who can really connect with me in a deep way.
00:29:24
Speaker
Does that kind of make sense? Like the two pathways are kind of like, to me, into my mind, I think the two pathways are kind of like the game and like the sort of pickup artist space, which is like, it's really not your fault. You're allowed to be mad at the world and at women and you should be entitled to the, to the things that you're craving. And the other pathway is kind of, I dunno, I think like the world is complex and nuanced and it's changing and weird and we don't know all the answers, but like,
00:29:53
Speaker
doing some introspection on it and being willing to change and kind of just like taking a leap into a chaotic and unknown new thing while terrifying is
00:30:10
Speaker
I think ultimately more rewarding. Again, kind of a messy question, but like, yeah, let's talk about the game. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not an expert on it. I mean, I only know a little bit about it because I tried reading it when I was in college and was feeling very insecure myself. And it was kind of seemed like it's what people were doing. I mean, I had an instant revulsion to it, which I'm proud of. I mean, I was just a kid, but I mean, it was like,
00:30:38
Speaker
I was like, wait, what this is like. I mean, it felt like so I guess the basic question that occurred to me even at that young insecure time was.
00:30:50
Speaker
Why would I want to be in a relationship built on manipulation and insecurity? That like, that's the foundation for the relationship. That I'm making you feel bad about yourself so that you like me because you want me to redeem you from feeling shitty. Which is just like, where's that relationship going? I mean, it was just like, this is...
00:31:14
Speaker
Ultimately, I guess it just gets back to the question of what's the point? What's the point of a relationship? Is it just to get somebody to pay attention to you or want you? Because sure, you could come up with all kinds of ways to try to get somebody's attention, but then what?
00:31:34
Speaker
You know, I mean, that's the thing to me. It just it didn't it just felt like something that wasn't going anywhere. Never mind the fact that it was it was unethical. It was irresponsible. It was incredibly immature. I mean, it was just like the whole thing was just honestly, it struck me as just very sad that, you know, and more than that, though, I mean, not to be overly judgmental about it, because like I get where they're coming from. I mean, ultimately, these like bravado kinds of like
00:32:02
Speaker
I'm going to make women want me things are just so clearly coming from fear of loneliness, fear of not being enough, you know, fear of being rejected. And those are very real things, especially in a culture like ours.
00:32:18
Speaker
which I mean to me the real thing I think I'm criticizing is less the people who made the game exactly. It's more that there's a whole ideology around sort of commodifying human relationship and turning it into some sort of contest or just like we do with everything else in this culture of just like who's good and who's bad and
00:32:38
Speaker
Who should we make fun of? And I mean, just all these things that are just, it's just so sad. I mean, the way that we do that to each other, the way that there's such a fear of being left out or being the one who's, you know, shamed. And this is, you know, the game to me is just another example of like trying to get tough or get strong or get smart so that you'll like win at this game. And I think, thank God, I mean, ultimately, the heart, the human heart,
00:33:08
Speaker
is not going to change because we have these ridiculous ideas about making everything into a contest. Ultimately, real contentment in life, real joy and meaning comes from the deeper places in the heart.
00:33:28
Speaker
And that's based on truth. That's based on intimacy. That's based on doing the hard thing, doing the loving thing. It's based on, you know, being honest with yourself. It's based on things that you can try to make it into some big contest, but at the end of life, I mean, it's really there are these deeper truths about the human heart.
00:33:52
Speaker
Like I said, thank God. I mean, we are blessed with a heart that kind of knows universally. I mean, we just kind of made this way. I mean, we know what real love is somewhere inside of us. We're just born with it.
00:34:07
Speaker
that's just part of the gift of being human. But in our culture, we have made it so that we have to go through an awful lot of confusion and pain to sort of find our way back to that truth about love, about what love really feels like, what love really is. And for me,
00:34:27
Speaker
I mean, ultimately, like there's other fun things to do. I mean, sure, you can, sex is great and, you know, getting attention is great. I mean, but ultimately to me, what's the point of this whole thing is love, real love, you know, real, I mean, it's discovering the meaning of real love, you know, and how to live from there. That's the point. And I will tell you right now that the game has nothing to offer you about that.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and that way of thinking. To, um, yeah, I mean, obviously we both agree on this so much. And I guess I kind of want to move away from like beating up the game or like the pickup artistry and stuff like that, because I mean, maybe put a pin in this. I do think there's maybe interesting stuff to talk about about like, how do you actually bridge the gap? How do you like find a human in the world and say like, Hey, something about
00:35:21
Speaker
your energy is telling me that we might get along, or whatever that might be. That's kind of a woo-woo way of saying, hey, girl, you look good. Can I buy you a drink? But I kind of want to get away from that because I'm more interested, that love that you're talking about. I've experienced this
00:35:43
Speaker
And yet, in a way, it's been a long time since I've experienced it. But just feeling seen, feeling connected to someone. There are so many ways to talk about it. And I don't need to wax poetic here. But when I say love, I hope the audience knows what I mean. In a lot of ways, though, I find myself needing to have faith that it's possible. I find myself questioning. There's a part of me sometimes that questions and says,
00:36:13
Speaker
do I get that again? Maybe that thing is so rare. Maybe I got lucky and the dice rolled in my favor one time. But that was the one person where that's going to work. And there's a piece of me that's just sort of like really faith-based. Sometimes I almost feel irrational thinking that I
00:36:35
Speaker
deserve or should hope to find that kind of fulfilling connection again. And you're, you're smiling at me because we work on this all the time. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I want, I wanted to hear you talk about that a little bit. Like how, how, how should folks have faith in that? You know what I mean? Oh yeah. No, it's such a good, it's such a big question. I mean, to me, this ultimately, I mean, I want to get too meta about it, but this comes back to, to me, this,
00:37:06
Speaker
There's this really simple idea that so much of the way of life that we've created for ourselves, which has many wonderful things. You referenced plumbing and the internet and, you know, all these good things that are very helpful. I mean, we've modern medical systems. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff, but this sort of odd byproduct of, I don't know if it's capitalism or what is it exactly, but is this idea, um,
00:37:33
Speaker
which isn't always wrong. I mean, but the idea is of scarcity. It's this feeling. It's not even just an idea. It's like a felt sense of, well, there's not enough for everyone. You know, that's the basic thing. And it almost feels like, oh, that's important. Like we need to have a competition and we need to, you know, all these things because there's not enough for everyone. And it creates this sense of just like, you know, is there enough for me? You know, am I going to be okay?
00:38:03
Speaker
Um, and I feel like that feeling of, I don't know if there's going to be enough, like, I don't know. And I mean, where that ultimately goes to is look, I mean, we all walk by people on the street who are homeless, you know, nowhere to live. I mean, our fellow people.
00:38:18
Speaker
who you can come up with whatever story you want about why it's justifiable to have fellow humans left out in the cold to die you know and oh well you know they're irresponsible whatever judgment i don't really give a shit what story you have for it it's not justifiable.
00:38:36
Speaker
You know, I mean, that that's not real. That's not a real thing. We tie ourselves in knots doing that, but it's not real. I mean, you know, I mean, and if you don't believe me, I mean, go listen to Jesus Christ. I mean, I'm my brother's keeper. You know, I mean, it's like the meat shall inherit the earth. I mean, love your neighbor. I mean, these are like basic things. Anyway, sorry, this is a roundaway way of getting back to this, which is that the most insidious of all the ideas about scarcity is that love is scarce.
00:39:04
Speaker
that love is this very, very difficult to obtain thing that you need to be so special to get, you need to be so pretty to get, you need to be so rich to get it, you know, whatever. You don't deserve it if you don't have all these things and all these skills and all this stuff. And the thing that's so sad to me about that is that that emerges from something that, first of all, is just not real. I mean, I think when you really tap into love,
00:39:34
Speaker
Love is what created life. I mean, love is the most infinite thing. And I think anybody who has had the good fortune of holding a newborn baby, their own baby, especially, and looking into its eyes, can feel how infinite love is.
Love Abundance vs. Scarcity Mindset
00:39:52
Speaker
It's just this endless divinity of that when you are actually present with that baby,
00:40:00
Speaker
and you're not distracted by your phone and you're not thinking about tomorrow and you're just looking into that baby and it's looking back at you. There is nothing better than that and it's tapping into something that is not scarce. It's just abundant. It's there.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I think that that's also true in our lives. I mean, that love isn't something that you find. Love is something that you make. I mean, you're building it out of this energy that's there. You just need to learn.
00:40:31
Speaker
we need to learn because of the culture we live in where homelessness and war and all these other things you know profound inequality we have justifications for all this bullshit you know but that we have learned that as part of that.
00:40:46
Speaker
that love is this you know thing you probably don't deserve you're probably not good enough for it but really it's it's you know you're it's a lot of unlearning i mean love to me isn't like i said it's not something you find it's something that you make it's something that you build through steady self-care self-love that's the foundation of it and then
00:41:10
Speaker
through presence, through really being present and through a lot of different practices that cultivate that feeling of love. And I think anybody who's ever
00:41:25
Speaker
had a day with a partner where they just did something together that they really loved and they put their phones away. I mean, it's sort of obvious, but it's like, of course it's a set of choices that cultivate loving quality.
00:41:42
Speaker
And so, you know, you can, and I believe that you can do that both with yourself, but also with all kinds of people. I mean, yes, there are some people who you are way more compatible with, and love would be much easier to feel with those people because you have all these things going that make you kind of an easeful fit for doing this with. But it's not, you know, it's not a lottery ticket, you know. And thinking about it that way is just depressing.
00:42:18
Speaker
I don't know. I end up talking about like the dating apps a lot on here because I think they've had like a really big impact on Modern dating. I mean the same way that I think the internet has a big impact on like all of society, right like Whether we like it or not and spoiler I don't You know, it's there that's a mixed bag, you know, it's a mixed bag that's fair modern society Yeah
00:42:37
Speaker
It is, yeah.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah, OK. OK, so I kind of want to pivot from there into discernment, right? So moving through the world, let's say I am lucky enough to bump into somebody where I feel like there's a chance that maybe I can make this thing, this love, this connection. I can grow that with someone. I say a lot that I like to, if I'm meeting somebody, I like to give things time and I want to water it to see what grows, right?
00:43:17
Speaker
I want to give you the opportunity to talk about discernment here. If I meet somebody, I think there's a possibility there. I think if I'm honest, and maybe I don't know if listeners agree, but if I'm honest with myself,
00:43:31
Speaker
if I meet somebody and it seems like there's that spark, there is still a choice. There is still a dialogue in my head that says, okay, I can choose to open up and be vulnerable with this person. I can choose to commit, really go for this thing, really open myself up to this person and see what's there. It's not like I think sometimes
00:43:53
Speaker
I think sometimes I or maybe people imagine that like if you find the thing, if you find love, it's like getting struck by lightning and the choice will be made for you and you'll have no choice. You'll meet the person and like music will play and it'll just like it'll happen, right? And I think in my experience anyway, that's not the case. That's a very
00:44:15
Speaker
That's a story we tell ourselves because, gosh, it sort of makes things easy, right? I think the reality is there is a choice. You do, when you meet somebody, you do kind of have to put your chips on the table. You do have to kind of invest, be vulnerable, and go for it. And so I wanted to ask you to talk about discernment. I guess, first of all, do you agree? I assume you do. But what is that process like? How do you approach that? What would you tell somebody as their
00:44:41
Speaker
getting ready to make that choice well i think the first question that anybody has to answer which is a question that is very rarely answered i find by most people is what is the point of being in a relationship for you. What's the point okay that's the first question why why do you do this why do you want to do this.
00:45:03
Speaker
You know, and I mean, there's not necessarily any right answer, but the more clear you are about your own expectations or desire for like really though, like why are you doing this? And the thing I wanted to say before about the game too, that I forgot is that one of the huge problems we have in this culture as well, not to be too down on it, but is that there's this fairy tale thing that we all get caught in. And here's the thing about a fairy tale.
00:45:32
Speaker
Every fairy tale, pretty much, not everyone, but the most common one, the like Romeo and Juliet, whatever it is, they're all about falling in love. And the story kind of ends with this hilarious thing of happily ever after. It's like, oh, they got, you got the person and now you're just happy. And that's the end.
00:45:55
Speaker
And the thing is, that's not the end, that's the beginning. I mean, that's when relationship really begins is, okay, I wanna be with you and do this thing, let's talk about what that is. And you wanna be with me, great, well now what? And I think that's one of the really funny things to me about the dating culture is that it's just so much more focused on
00:46:21
Speaker
you know, how do I get the girl or the guy or whatever than it is on like, well, okay, well, why am I getting this person? Like, what am I, you know, sure you want to have sex with them or you, or maybe you have some fantasy about like, I'm going to have a house and two kids and it's going to be great. Sure. Whatever. But I mean, like you want to have a family. Great. That's great. Why do you want to do that? You know, I mean, it's just getting into the real specifics of the expectations. And I really encourage people to, when they do start a relationship,
00:46:50
Speaker
To get really clear very clear about your expectations for the relationship. I mean which I know it's and the reason people don't do it is because they're
00:47:01
Speaker
And look, I've done this many times, but it's because they're afraid they're gonna find out that their expectations don't line up with their partners. But the sooner you know that, the better. I just think so much of it is get out of the fantasy, get into the reality. You have a desire for a relationship for these reasons. I wanna be a dad, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. Does your partner share those expectations? That's a huge thing to do. So one area of discernment,
00:47:32
Speaker
is to say, I am clear on what I am wanting in relationship right now. I'm wanting a monogamous relationship. I mean, that's the most obvious kind of ones, right? But it's more than that. It's like, okay, for me, I really love the band Fish. They're like a spiritual outlet for me, means everything to me. And it turns out that I really wanna share that with somebody. It's very specific.
00:47:59
Speaker
And it turns out that if somebody really isn't into it or can't get into it or doesn't share it with me, in my particular case, that isn't what I want. I really want that to be in relationships. So that's just something where, yeah. So some of it's just you are clear enough on who you are and what you want out of a relationship that you're able to discern whether that is genuinely aligned with what this other person wants.
00:48:24
Speaker
The other big tip I would say just generally about discernment, at least from where I'm sitting.
00:48:30
Speaker
Obviously there are some areas of compatibility. I mean, there's like physical or sexual chemistry is a real thing, you know, that bodies sometimes all kinds of reasons we don't even fully understand sometimes just really work together. And sometimes it doesn't work as well. And that's fine. That's a discernment thing. And there's other stuff, you know, you know, I mean, like I shared interests and all those kinds of things. But to me, the one that is often overlooked and the one that ends most relationships
00:48:59
Speaker
is, you know, do you see relationship as a path for growth and healing? And are you willing to do the difficult, vulnerable work of going into the wounding or the hard places in yourself in the relationship?
00:49:18
Speaker
Are you willing to, do you see the relationship as a path to growth and change and liberation? And are you willing to do that work? Are you willing to do couples therapy? I mean, to me, doing couples therapy is not something you do when your relationship is broken. It's something you do, it's like flossing. You do it because you don't want your teeth to fall out. I mean, it's totally different. So to me, that's one huge question is, is that,
00:49:47
Speaker
a part of what relationship is for to you. If it's not, you might want to rethink it. And then are you with a person who is equally able and willing and game to do that? That's the biggest reason I see relationships not work, is that the couple didn't actually realize that one or both of them are wanting the relationship that they dream of to sort of be handed to them in a gift wrapping.
00:50:16
Speaker
and they're not actually willing to do the difficult work. So I guess the short answer would be it's a combination of having enough compatibility that's easy, that you have something to stand on, that's sort of like you're on firm ground, and then do you both have a shared willingness to work with whatever emerges in this journey of relationship to try to heal yourselves and grow and face your shadows and the things that you will have
00:50:46
Speaker
Because you do and then that you know that that's the key discernment those those two buckets.
Finding Partners Interested in Growth
00:50:55
Speaker
I love that and it's beautiful and also you know i guess. Sometimes i worry or i think i would say like i think it is fair to worry that like.
00:51:08
Speaker
It feels to me like it's hard to find someone who is doing that work. It feels to me like there aren't that many people who, and not to toot my own horn here, but working on myself. I found my way into therapy and working on myself because there were things about myself that
00:51:31
Speaker
All kinds of stuff happened. I had to deal with some crap. That got me into working on myself. That sort of opened up this world of like, oh wow, I really can learn these tools to try and be the version of myself that I actually want to be.
00:51:49
Speaker
When you describe that, it's beautiful. I find myself fantasizing about somebody who wants to do that work and who is able to meet me in that place. There's this other part of me that is just worried that says,
00:52:10
Speaker
I don't know many people that are that into that. I don't know, is Santa Monica just the wrong place to be to meet those kind of people? Or how do I go? You know what I mean? I kind of suspect the answer is no, actually Scott, they're out there. But I want to hear your take on how do you seek those people? You know what I mean? Well, the first thing is you got to be upfront that that's what you want.
00:52:35
Speaker
I mean, you know, the simplest thing about like, I mean, what's the law of attraction? I mean, you basically get what you give. I mean, you get what you put out there. You gotta be, you need, that's the, I mean,
00:52:48
Speaker
I think within reason, I mean, obviously if you require that your partner be like some extremely obscure thing that is going to limit your pool, sure. But I mean, I think too often people aren't as upfront as they could be about what they really, really are wanting because they're worried that they won't find it. But the funny thing is if you aren't clear about it, you're definitely not gonna find it.
00:53:17
Speaker
You know, that's this sort of hilarious thing that's so sad about scarcity mentality is that it's like it's like you already decided that it's not you're not going to find it. So you don't even try. But it's like the only way that you would ever find it is if you are clear about it. So, you know, to me, the first thing is, yeah, I mean, you got to lead with like, I really want to be with somebody who's doing their work. I want to be with somebody who we can do the work together. You know, and then, yeah, sure. You might meet people who are like, that sounds like hard. I don't want to do that. Great.
00:53:47
Speaker
Perfect because you know now there's that's a no it's fine. I mean I think that's to me honestly one of them one of the most Incredibly liberating skills that you need to learn if you want to meet somebody or honestly like do anything in life is to say no and Just like to enjoy it like to learn that saying no is saying yes to you I mean if it's a no now you get to say yes to finding something that feels right and
00:54:15
Speaker
You know, I mean, it's like I mean, life is long, you know, I mean, you don't like it's not it's too it's too it's too precious to, you know, believe that you have to just settle for what you don't actually feel truly aligned about.
00:54:30
Speaker
you know it's it you don't need to do that i mean but but yeah i mean to find it you're just i mean i know for a fact that la has many many people who are interested in this kind of work i mean i know a lot and you know and and you yeah you have to but you do need to make that more clear i mean on my dating profile i had you know
00:54:53
Speaker
I love somatic psychotherapy and here's my Enneagram type and here's my Myers Briggs and these other things that it's like, you know, hey, I'm signaling like maybe you're doing this stuff too and we can talk about it.
00:55:08
Speaker
Hell, I mean, I think when I do a dating profile in the future, I'll probably even put my attachment style, which has been something called fearful avoidant, otherwise called disorganized, which I got from my childhood. And some people might be like, well, I only want to date a securely attached person.
00:55:29
Speaker
You know, but the thing I think I'm offering is I am vulnerable enough and real enough and committed enough to my work to tell you upfront that I know how I attached to my parents and I'm aware of it and I'm working on it. So that's a way.
00:55:45
Speaker
It's a way to do it. And you're right, though, Scott. I mean, it's not the dominant culture, but it's becoming a lot more desirable. In fact, I mean, I think there are a lot of women who I respect
00:56:01
Speaker
who would only want to be with a guy who is that committed to self growth and understanding and healing. Hell, I mean, I think that anybody would be ill advised to be with somebody who isn't.
00:56:15
Speaker
and honestly, you're asking for it. I mean, you're asking for, you know, that's where, I mean, it's not like people who are in therapy don't get divorced, but I mean, the most common reason that relationships don't work out is just that there is really difficult, difficult work that people are just avoiding, you know? I mean, that's a really common reason. And then they're hoping that they can just keep avoiding it their whole lives, you know?
00:56:47
Speaker
which, you know, which I mean, you can do to a point, but I mean, it's, boy, you're missing out. I mean, that's what I would say. I mean, man, if you can work through some of these blocks that you have, you know, I mean, oh man, your life just gets so much more rich, so much more alive doing the work. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I big time agree. Like when I in my life have kind of,
00:57:15
Speaker
I don't know, I'll use the analogy like opened up a door and gone through it or like realized, seen something about myself and been like, oh, I see that's there now and I can work on that. It actually didn't take that much, but it allowed me to sort of like just lead a much more fulfilling life and it just felt better. And the time is when I've been able to do that with a partner.
00:57:36
Speaker
It's just like, I don't know, man, for me, I don't want to say like drugs. Maybe it is like drugs, but it's like, given that I have only so much time on earth, that's the thing I want to do. Like I've just sort of, I've encountered nothing more fulfilling than connecting to another human being and doing that work and, and I don't know, seeing each other. Yeah. Deeply.
00:58:01
Speaker
I don't know. It's just the thing that I want to do. I don't know. I can't be the only one. I have to believe there are so many people who... Do you know what I mean? You are definitely not the only one. I think you should see it, Scott, just talking to you personally. You should see it as something to be proud of.
00:58:21
Speaker
that that's just what you're doing, this is what you want. I mean, this is something to tell and lead with, with pride. And if somebody else doesn't see it that way, well, they're not right for you and that's fine. Yeah. I think on my dating app profile, I have therapy receipts available upon request, which is kind of a, well, right, but now that I think about that,
00:58:48
Speaker
I'm kind of poking fun at it a little bit, you know? I'm kind of like saying it in a funny way, as opposed to being like, I'm an Enneagram two wing one, and my attachment style is, I don't even know what my attachment style is, honestly. But like, hmm. There's so little, I mean, attachment styles is tricky, because they're so misunderstood and stigmatized. So I mean, I don't really blame people for not leading with that. But I mean, yeah, no, I think, I think, really, we're like really being proud of what you're doing.
00:59:17
Speaker
Um, is yeah, I think that's it. But I mean, ultimately to me, that's the, if there's any advice I could give to anybody about dating, it's just go into it being proud of who you are.
00:59:32
Speaker
Don't try to become, don't try to be something. Just try to be yourself. I mean, it's like the oldest advice there is. But I mean, it's good advice. I mean, you're not gonna ever, I mean, God, believe me, I have tried so hard to become things for people so that they would stay or that they would choose me. And I'm gonna tell you right now, you're never gonna become anything other than you.
01:00:00
Speaker
You can try all you want, you're stuck with you. You can change some, but fundamentally, I mean, you're you. And it's like the more you can just own that and celebrate that, the more likely you are to be with somebody who actually, I mean, this is a sad one to me, is the times where I've really tried to change myself to make somebody else happy.
01:00:25
Speaker
I was dooming the relationship because I was not even giving them the opportunity to choose me because I'm not even really being myself. And then I end up blaming them for the fact that I don't feel seen or chosen when I wasn't even being myself in the first place. So it's not their fault. It's just that trap, man, that'll get you. And you know where it comes from? It comes from scarcity.
01:00:49
Speaker
That's where it comes from. That's why I'm so sad. It comes from your belief. Well, it would be great if somebody would choose me, but I can't afford to be me because I don't think anybody would like me. So I'm going to have to be whatever somebody else wants because of all the scarcity.
01:01:06
Speaker
I mean you know this obviously so well but like yeah I absolutely do that and I do that in ways that like I hide it from myself. I find like really really small ways to do that. Like there's a part of me that like tries to sneak that kind of people pleasing
01:01:25
Speaker
past the part of my brain that's like looking out for the people pleasing and like trying to be healthy like you know like these little habits are like it's like there's 10 conversations in my mind and I can hear one of them and the other nine are like I don't want to say plotting against me but like I don't know if I feel sneaky to me sometimes anyway oh I'm totally totally no no I mean that's the first thing is you know and that's honestly that's where so much just to get back to your question before about working on yourself
01:01:54
Speaker
I mean, the really tricky thing for people is less even about what they're concealing or hiding from a partner. It's even more what you're concealing from yourself, right? Like that's really, that's the work that will really transform your life is to get right with yourself, get real with yourself.
01:02:15
Speaker
build the relationship with yourself. In fact, there's a great, I don't have many people on YouTube who I recommend. I have one who is incredible. Her name is Heidi Preeb.
01:02:30
Speaker
P-R-I-E-B-E. She has amazing educational stuff about attachment, about dating, about relationships. She's really brilliant. And she has a whole series of videos on your relationship to yourself. And to me, those are the foundations. That's the foundation of anything in dating, is are you in a good relationship with yourself?
01:02:57
Speaker
Are you being honest with yourself? Are you following through on the promises you make to yourself? Do you like yourself? Really like yourself? Not some idea about yourself, but who you really are. That's the foundation. Yeah.
01:03:15
Speaker
I am. We spent a lot of time here kind of poo pooing the internet, but I will say the algorithm figured out that I would like Heidi pre, but I'm already subscribed to her and I do love her stuff. Like I do. I will just like watch it over dinner sometimes to like, Oh, it's so, so, so helpful. I mean, she's just really brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Awesome.
01:03:36
Speaker
Okay, so to kind of wrap it up here, the last thing that I would be curious to talk about is kind of attachment styles. If you'd be interested, I think a lot of people, I think there are some people who, I think I have a kind of a crude understanding of what the attachment styles are.
01:03:53
Speaker
And I do think a lot of people are kind of becoming aware of it. And also there are probably some people who are like, what the heck is an attachment style? But it's definitely been kind of a game changer for me in terms of thinking about connecting with people, dating people, and being in relationship, especially romantic. But I'm pretty sure my understanding is very crude. So I kind of wanted to ask you if you would just like, I don't know, talk about that for a little bit.
01:04:22
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, it's when we are growing up, I mean, we get an imprint or a blueprint kind of an imprint is a good word for it based on our family of origin for what love means.
Attachment Styles and Relationships
01:04:38
Speaker
You know, it's like, what are we talking about when we talk about love? What is it? Right. I mean, that that is something that we learn from our relationships.
01:04:50
Speaker
when we're growing up with the people who are giving us affection and care, the people who are supposed to be loving us, you know, how does it work with them? That's the very first imprint that you have. And so you really take that in. We all do. And that becomes the way deeply, deeply on levels that are deeper than you even realize. I think we have this really funny idea that our minds are in charge.
01:05:18
Speaker
of how we're relating to people. But it's actually much deeper inside your heart, you know, how you were treated as a kid. You end up replaying those dynamics. You end up projecting them out on the world around you. And so, for instance, well, if you talk about attachment, I mean, attachment at its most basic, it's based on a series of studies, John Bowlby, I think was his name, on how kids behave
01:05:48
Speaker
when their parents leave the room and come back, that's basically how it started. And he identified in these studies, I always feel bad for these kids that were studied on this on some level, these different consistent patterns of behavior in the kids when the parents would leave the room. These are, I forget how old they were, four or five, something like that.
01:06:12
Speaker
And that's how he came up with these different categories which have been refined over the years of secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. One thing to say is that there's really only two categories. There's secure and insecure. And then insecure takes on a number of different strategies.
01:06:38
Speaker
Like, I think sometimes people get confused. I mean, they're all based on anxiety. I mean, disorganized, avoidant, and anxious. They're all based on anxiety. They're based on fear, basically. Fundamentally, what that means is that that kid was growing up in a situation where they were not secure in the feeling that the parent loved them and could be relied upon and trusted.
01:07:02
Speaker
They were not secure in it. Sometimes they felt it. Sometimes they were not sure about it. And the more time they spent being unsure about it, the more insecure they get. Understandable. Now a kid is growing up in a world where getting the parents' attention and affection is life and death. I mean, especially very young children. I mean, you need it. And you're trapped.
01:07:26
Speaker
That's the other thing, you're stuck. Where else are you gonna go? I mean, you got no choice. You're stuck with what's available to you. So kids, I think brilliantly, are designed to survive. They're gonna survive. And that means that they have to make do with whatever is available and they wanna try to make do with it in a way that is most realistic and kind of least painful.
01:07:53
Speaker
And so that is what creates some of the different insecure attachment styles where, you know, the anxious kid is just really, really, they're just trying their hardest to keep the parent from leaving because the parent keeps leaving or not being available or being distracted.
01:08:17
Speaker
the kid is just trying like I look I really need your attention and they're there so they're very They're become very good at trying to get the parents attention back and that becomes a blueprint Don't go don't go don't go right then the avoidance style is you know a little bit a little it's just a different strategy of dealing with the insecurity one of the best ways I've heard about it described is Well You're gonna leave and I need to be prepared for it
01:08:46
Speaker
And I need to be ready to try to find somebody else or even just to be alone. I need to be ready for this. So I'm not going to rely on you too much. I'm going to assume that you're going to go.
01:08:58
Speaker
And I'm going to learn to not let myself be affected by it as much. I'm just going to sort of detach from you and be kind of indifferent. Now, what's really happening is that the kid is burying the need for love underneath this practiced place of I don't care, you know, and that's that's another model that they learn. Anyway, we could keep going through it, but fundamentally, it's there's a secure kid is it doesn't sound like that much to ask.
01:09:28
Speaker
you would think that we would create a culture and a world in which it wouldn't be unreasonable to create the conditions, whether that be through family leave or resources or support or whatever, that a parent could consistently choose to love and pay attention to the child that they have chosen to create. You would think that wouldn't be too much to add. You made a kid
01:09:56
Speaker
And can you just love this kid who you made? Enough. It doesn't need to be perfect, but just enough so that they feel that they're OK, that they feel like they're loved and they're good, and that they're wanted. Unfortunately, I would say the majority of us, probably by a good margin, did not get into that threshold. We did not feel secure in this. We felt insecure.
01:10:25
Speaker
Um, and that's really what we're talking about. And then in terms of healing it, the most important thing in the place to start is just to become aware of your patterning. You know, and one way to do that is just, and we can, we practice this in therapy, but it's like your attachment figure steps away. You do a practice. Oh, the person moved away from you. What happens?
01:10:47
Speaker
What do you notice in your body? Do you get scared? Do you want to chase after them? Do you feel like, well, fuck them. I don't need them. You know, like what really happens or do you just feel like, Oh, they're, you know.
01:10:58
Speaker
They're taking a step away, but I know they love me and I hope they do something fun. You know, I'm sure they'll come back. I mean, that's, that's a sec. That's a secure thing, right? That's a secure place to be. So that's, that's kind of what we're talking about. And the more that you can be aware of it, it really starts with the humility to be like, okay, I wasn't securely attached like many, many, many people. I want to understand my patterning. I want to be able to name it.
01:11:27
Speaker
and I wanna be able to jump out of it when it happens, so that you're with your partner and you can even get to the point of being like, okay, my attachment pattern's here right now. I know you're just going to hang out with your old friend in my anxious attachment. I'm imagining that you're gonna leave me for this person. I know that's not true. And I hope you have a great time. That's the kind of work you can do when you're aware of it. Yeah.
01:11:55
Speaker
So I think for me, I think it's safe to say I or maybe I would guess that I am anxious, right? That I that I feel like when the object of my affection is away, I feel that pole to say like, oh, no, no, no, no, come back. Yeah. Yeah. And like through through like, I don't know, I want to call it like sheer force of will and like,
01:12:21
Speaker
Yeah, just brute force. I can usually or I find myself like seeing that and like just like muscling myself into like, okay, okay, okay. Let me think about this from what I think would be an attached or I'm sorry, securely attached like approach. And I try to remind myself like, okay, can I be, can I, can I be happy that they're off doing a thing? Like, can I remember something? But like,
01:12:46
Speaker
Is it, am I, I guess first of all, does that ring true from what you know about me? Because that's making about me for a second. But like. Well, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm not gonna diagnose you on your show. But to me, I mean, ultimately the foundation of attachment healing,
01:13:14
Speaker
is to acknowledge the anxiety that you have and learn about how to create the corrective experience. Your partner can do that with you if it's done very consciously. This is the key thing. Most people are trying to get their attachment wounds addressed, but they're doing it without naming that that's what's happening.
01:13:37
Speaker
And so then it creates this shadow dance where in the not naming, they're not actually taking responsibility for themselves and there can be a lot of resentment and blame and these other things. But you know, your partner can help to an extent.
01:13:52
Speaker
It's not your partner's job to heal your attachment wounds though. They're not your parent. That's the trick. You needed a parent for that. They're not your parent. And now you can construct requests of saying, this is my attachment patterning. Would you be available to help work with me in this way? But they get to say no.
01:14:16
Speaker
because they're not your parent. So that's why you need therapy or that's why you need other resources, friends, other things that you can go to. And the thing that you need out of those things is how to soothe the young part that is still feeling anxious. That's what's needed is ultimately some form of, I mean, the reason that you develop insecure attachment is because you were not sufficiently soothed as a kid.
01:14:43
Speaker
There's a million reasons for that. I mean, my parents, hilariously, and God love them, were their educators, social worker. I mean, but they were, my dad, I think very conveniently because he just wanted to sleep more. I don't know what it was. Really subscribe to the cry it out idea that your baby's crying and you got to train your baby that you got to be able to just soothe yourself and stop crying.
01:15:11
Speaker
Unfortunately, the reality is a baby is incapable of soothing itself. It was not designed by nature to soothe itself, and it's crying because it's saying it needs you. Now, you might not have the capacity to be with the baby all the time, but that's not because the baby needs to soothe itself. That's because you need help.
01:15:31
Speaker
Right. And, and if, you know, and it's not to blame, I'm not blaming my parents or anybody's parents. It's really not because we are all set up to fail. I mean, the nuclear family is set up to fail. That's the dirtiest secret of capitalism is the nuclear family is set up to go nuclear. I mean, they don't have enough resources to, you know, they don't have enough time. They don't have help. But anyway, I mean, ultimately what you're, what you're kind of trying to learn now,
01:15:58
Speaker
is what do you need to soothe the insecure part of yourself. And that can be practices you can do with yourself. That can be friends and community. That can be therapy. That can be naming it to your partner and seeing if the person can help you in some way with it.
01:16:15
Speaker
But the naming is the most important thing and always having space for the fact that, you know, if you are choosing this relationship that, you know, this person is an adult, independent person. It's not their job to be your mom. You know, and if you get confused and I think sometimes we are not admitting to ourselves that that's actually what we're asking them to do. And you can. This is where it gets really interesting. You can ask them.
01:16:43
Speaker
to help you work out some of these things, but it needs to be done consciously and consensually. It can't be done in a shadowy, not explicit way. That's where people get into trouble. I'm mad at you because you made me feel insecure like you were gonna leave.
Healing and Responsibility in Love
01:17:03
Speaker
No, they didn't make you feel that. I mean, you have insecurity,
01:17:09
Speaker
You are triggered by these things, and you could ask for the chance to work out some of this in certain ways, but you've got to own that this is your stuff. It's not something that the person's doing to you in most cases. They're triggering something that is yours to be with, and maybe you can work some of these things out together, but it starts with that owning. That's why I think going into your attachment patterning is so important.
01:17:36
Speaker
because what tends to happen is if people are not aware of it or they don't want to see it in themselves, then what they do instead is they blame their partner, which is not going to help.
01:17:51
Speaker
So if you're saying to someone on a dating app or meeting in life, if you get to that point with someone where you're like, hey, listen, I know about myself that my attachment style is insecure, anxious, something that I am working through and that I see, I just want to let you know that that's a part of me.
01:18:11
Speaker
Am I saying that because I'm trying to look for somebody who is compatible with that style of attraction? Or am I just saying that style of attachment? Or am I saying that just to give them the lay of the land? They don't need to be a particular type of person to play well with that. I'm just telling them, hey, this is a specific aspect of me. That make sense?
01:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, totally. It's a great question. I mean, look, this is a hard one because, you know, first of all, a lot of people think they're secure and they're wrong. So that's an issue. That's an issue. I see that all the time. Everybody wants to say they're secure. They're almost always wrong. It feels like the goal, you know, like it feels like that's the good thing. And, you know, the sooner you can be realistic about where you are, the better.
01:18:58
Speaker
It's also true that sometimes being in relationships with people who are very insecure will bring out your insecurity, but even that, if people are bringing it out, it's because it's not healed in you. It's just another attempt to be like, no, it's my partner's fault. It's not me. And it's like, no, if you really were secure, you wouldn't be so activated by this insecure person, really. I mean, you would just be like, no.
01:19:22
Speaker
I mean it wouldn't be that hard you would just be like no I don't agree with this or I'm leaving or whatever you would just make a choice you know so anyway the reason to talk about it is first of all that you're gonna quickly it just comes back to expectations so much of happiness in all kinds of relationships work
01:19:45
Speaker
love friends are about, are we expecting or wanting the same thing? Or do we understand our expectations that we each have? And it's so rare that people are as upfront about that as they really would benefit from being. And attachment style is just an expectation setter. You know, it's very different if somebody says to you, let me tell you about my childhood and why I'm anxiously attached.
01:20:13
Speaker
and what I'm doing to heal myself. And so for instance, if you go hang out with another person of the opposite sex, I might have this reaction and I wanna set that expectation now. And I own that that's mine and that's not your fault. And I wonder if we can work out some agreements that will make it a little easier on me when that happens. Would you be open to talking about that? That's very different than being like,
01:20:44
Speaker
You said she's just a friend, but how do I know? Yeah. I don't really believe you. You know, you know, you, I think you really, you really do want to, you really are thinking about other women. Admit it. I mean, that's just like, okay, that that's a such a different conversation. Now you're in the territory of blame, shame, accusation. You know, when you could have been in the territory of like, Hey, I know this about myself. I'm owning this about myself.
01:21:13
Speaker
and I want a partner who can support me in it. And the reason you're naming it too is to say, I want you to know that I'm self-aware and that I can own my stuff. That's what you're saying. And as I'm doing that, that's a great example. As I'm saying to someone like, hey, I get a little jealous when you hang out with this guy. As I'm going through that process, telling my partner I have this jealousy thing,
01:21:41
Speaker
Is it possible, do you believe it's possible for me through doing that, through working with a partner that way or through working on myself or this kind of stuff, that over time, that jealousy will subside? That I will get to where I don't feel that like fear? Because that's what it is, right? It's fear. Well, absolutely. Well, think about it this way. This is where attachment theory comes in as being so helpful. It's about security, right? Ultimately, it's about security. Is the love that I have with this person secure or not?
01:22:09
Speaker
Love can feel secure to you in many different ways. It can, people who are, I firmly believe that people can be in all kinds of relationship configurations and still feel secure in the love they share with someone.
01:22:23
Speaker
Security doesn't necessarily mean that it will never leave. Security means that I trust that you are showing up for this relationship. You're being real with me. You are working on the love we have. And we are a reliable partner for me, which would even mean eventually being very honest about challenges you're having that might lead that to change.
01:22:53
Speaker
but that's what creates the feeling of security. You are showing up for this relationship over and over and over. And eventually, yeah, if something, think about any, I mean, anybody who does anything repeatedly, anybody who follows through on their word with you repeatedly, over and over and over, eventually you believe them.
01:23:14
Speaker
So it's the same thing. I mean, somebody polyamorous people work through this all the time. It's like you have agreements, some kind of agreement, you know, that you, that feels good for both of you. Uh, when I go have sex with this other person, I'm going to send you a loving memo, a voice memo afterwards about how excited I am to see you too, or whatever it is. I don't know. Like that. I still care about you and that this didn't change that. You know, if that's true, you know, um, if somebody does that enough times and eventually you're like, wow, you know,
01:23:44
Speaker
This thing happened that I'm scared of, but you still love me. I can feel it. That's what it's about. Security is about feeling. I think the biggest disservice, one of the biggest disservice is, I love language. One of the big downsides to it is that love is not a word. Love is an action. Love is a consistent set of actions. And so somebody can say they love you all day long, but
01:24:11
Speaker
this is the place more than any other where actions speak louder than words. You know, do I feel, not just do I feel loved, but this person is, are they acting in a loving way? You know, and that's why I think, yeah, that it's just, it's like,
01:24:30
Speaker
by naming it and creating the possibility that somebody can honor the agreements that you have, that gives them the chance to show that they love you. And over time, you will feel more and more secure in that. Well, I think that's an awesome place to wrap it up, man.
01:24:49
Speaker
Nate Toby, thank you so much for coming on here. Of course, we went long, I apologize. But I really enjoy this conversation. Yeah, usually when we talk, I'm digging deep and crying a little bit and working through some stuff. So this is fun to just kind of get to noodle around and talk about like,
01:25:07
Speaker
all this different kind of stuff. So thank you, man. Yeah, it's weird for me. I mean, I don't, you know, if I talk anywhere near this much in a therapy session, I'm really not doing my job. So this is a different situation, but it was fun to go deep in myself to try to articulate some of these things. And thank you for giving me the chance. Yeah, man. Thank you for coming on.
01:25:33
Speaker
Okay, yeah, well, listen, I'll see you in session next week, man. And thank you, thank you, thank you again. Of course, it was a lot of fun. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to my conversation with Nate Toby. Nate, thank you so, so much for being on this little podcast. I really got a lot out of that conversation and I, you know, I'm going to listen back to this one and I think there's a lot I'm going to be thinking about in there.
01:25:59
Speaker
This is obviously different than how most of my conversations with Nate go, so that was a new and interesting thing for me. But I hope you, the listener, I hope you got a lot out of this.
01:26:13
Speaker
Yeah, I hope it was a good one. As always, I hope it's helpful. I hope it's enjoyable. I hope it's fulfilling to hear these kinds of conversations. As always, if you want to reach out, you can find me at wish you all the best pod at gmail.com and on Instagram at wish you all the best pod.
01:26:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I got this week. Thank you, as always, for all you folks listening in. I really do appreciate it. Reach out if you've got ideas or thoughts or whatever. I'd love to hear back from you. And yeah, that's that's what I got. So, yeah, wishing you all the best, as always. And yeah, to wrap it up here, always be kind. Never skip leg day. All right, everybody. Until next time. Bye.