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Hannah - Identity, relationship, body
99 Plays1 year ago
Fun pod with my friend Hannah. This is a long one, we both like meandering thoughts. We talk about identity, relationships, living in our bodies. Hannah interviews me a little bit to change things up. Check out her stuff online! I hope we get to chat again on here about more stuff. Enjoy!
music - "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch -https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch - Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Men, Masculinity, and Asking for Help
00:00:00
Speaker
Men generally don't feel comfortable reaching out and asking for help around vulnerable things. Fair. Not like pointing a finger at you as a human. Literally, I was just talking about this with my friend who was raising two boys and we were like, yeah, there's so much pressure applied to
00:00:21
Speaker
the idea of masculinity that you should not need help and that to ask for help is somehow not fitting in with the masculine ideal, which I wish was not part of our cultural zeitgeist at all because everyone needs help with all kinds of things and to be able to just name that, to be able to name our needs is something I'm super passionate about everyone getting better at right now.
Introduction to Scott Simmons' Podcast with Guest Hannah Husband
00:00:53
Speaker
Welcome back to Wish You All the Best, a personal podcast about modern dating. I'm your host, Scott Simmons. My guest for this episode is Hannah Husband. Hannah is a friend who I know from
00:01:08
Speaker
Well, we met a long, long time ago. We've sort of been keeping in touch sort of peripherally, but I was excited to sort of reconnect with her, them recently, and just sort of got talking about, well, really got talking about sort of the topic of identity and what it's like to kind of change your identity or to have like a sense of
00:01:35
Speaker
I don't know, like what it's like to sort of look at yourself and say maybe, you know, who I've been isn't who I want to be.
Gender Identity and Cultural Perspectives
00:01:45
Speaker
And, you know, the big I think the big significant issue, especially lately in in modern, I think, culture has been a lot around gender identity. And Hannah talks about their
00:02:03
Speaker
experience through that a bit in the pod. And I, you know, I do think there's kind of an identity thing happening for men. And I think it's connected to dating because I think I guess I want for men to be able to kind of adjust who they think they ought to be. I think if we can make progress on changing
00:02:33
Speaker
you know, what it is to be, you know, a cishet dude. I think things could be better for everybody. Anyway, I had a really great conversation with Hannah. Oh, yeah, the other thing we touched on a little bit is her professional work.
Physical Routine Influences on Mood and Dating Life
00:02:49
Speaker
And I don't talk a whole lot about sort of like,
00:02:52
Speaker
physical routine or taking care of your body or that kind of stuff for the pod. I do think though, there's something to be said for how that can impact your dating life. I certainly enjoy having a practice around using my body, staying in shape and just staying active. I know when I'm bad about
00:03:19
Speaker
staying active, I can definitely feel it. It alters my mood, it alters just my outlook and I don't like it. So Hannah talks a little bit about her professional work.
Mind and Body Integration
00:03:33
Speaker
And I don't know, in general, I would recommend to anyone
00:03:39
Speaker
Trying to put in the time and effort or building up the habits to have a way to use your body I think I don't know. I think my body and my brain are kind of The same thing really, you know, and I kind of don't think it's just like my mind Trapped in a flesh suit, right? And I think I think this whole thing is kind of part of me and for me related to dating, you know working on a
00:04:06
Speaker
myself and figuring out who I am when I bring myself to try and meet somebody new. That's significant. Anyway, I don't talk about that a whole lot on here, but Hannah and I get the opportunity to dig in on that a little bit.
Diverse Conversation Anticipation
00:04:19
Speaker
But mostly we just had a really fun conversation, kind of goes all over the place. And yeah, I hope you really enjoy it. Thanks so much for listening. And here's my talk with Hannah.
00:04:31
Speaker
Okay. Hannah, welcome to wish you all the best. Thank you so, so much for joining me. How are you doing? Good. Had a very relaxing Sunday. Got a little beach time and I'm super stoked to talk to you.
00:04:46
Speaker
I've been looking forward to this and also yay, yay for the beach. Okay, so I always love to plug anything that I can for my guests when they first, right at the top, just get it all out of the way. Just get in there.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you like what you're hearing on this pod, dear audience, I encourage you to go to hannahusband.com, H-A-N-N-A-H, husband, like spouse, yeah, mm-hmm, dot com. No, I always say husband, like husband and wife. Yeah, yep.
00:05:23
Speaker
Yeah. And I'll of course put that in the show notes. And Hannah, did you want to talk? Do you want to talk a little bit about what you do professionally? Sure. Yeah, totally.
Hannah's Journey from Acting to Personal Training
00:05:35
Speaker
So I call myself a body liberation coach these days.
00:05:40
Speaker
what our names, who knows, we make them up. I love it. But I was an actor for a long time, then I was a personal trainer to support that. And then now I really work with people. I mean, I still do the movement stuff and have all of that knowledge and background, but I would say my work is more around supporting people to have a different relationship to their bodies and to movement.
00:06:07
Speaker
um, because I found that actually like the, the alchemizing of that relationship is what unlocks like a fruitful future with movement and your body.
Body-Positive Strength Training Program
00:06:20
Speaker
Um, and yeah, so, um, this fall we're grouping some folks together for a program that I run called seedling strength, which is really geared toward like,
00:06:32
Speaker
I say beginners, but the reality is it's anyone who wants to completely restart and reinvent their relationship with strength training in a way that is intuitive and honoring of the body that they're in in this moment and coming from a co-creative relationship with the body versus a power over relationship with the body. Oh, I love all that. And strength training like weightlifting.
00:06:58
Speaker
Well, it could be, um, we run this one over zoom and I promise people that they can do it like in their living room with pretty minimal equipment. So, um, but if folks have weights and stuff and they are ready and want to incorporate them, of course we can incorporate them. I love that. I love that a lot. I, one of my big things, um, like I, I am not a,
00:07:25
Speaker
call like a dualist. I definitely think that my body is a part of me. I never think of myself as like a mind trapped in a body. I feel like my body is me. I feel like my emotions are in my body. My body is feeling cranky or hurt or whatever. It's impacting me. You know what I mean? My mind and my body aren't separate. I didn't always feel that way. And as I've grown to sort of
00:07:54
Speaker
see myself that way. That's been a really, I don't know, that's been a game changer for me. Yeah. Okay. I want to know more about how that came about for you. Um, I mean, probably through acting training, um, you know, early on, I think more early when I was younger, which is a broad span of time. Um, uh, but I think, um,
00:08:21
Speaker
I think maybe I first learned that when I was trying to figure out like how to embody someone else or how to be something else, but in a way that sort of trained me to like, Oh, like how I feel or how I'm expressing myself or how I'm, um, yeah, like my emotional state is like, it's not just in my head. It's also in my body, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like one of the best parts about
00:08:50
Speaker
acting training and theater training is that often it includes a lot of self-awareness practice of various kinds. Cause there's this thing of like, you kind of have to know what's happening in your being. If you're going to like transform and convince people you are a different being than who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, sometimes I feel like it would have been a lot easier to actually go to therapy instead of going to school, you know, like more efficient.
00:09:20
Speaker
Um, okay. Okay. Awesome. So we'll talk. I mean, I don't know if we, if we get into that some more, I'm excited about that, but everybody, if you're interested in that kind of thing, um, if you're curious at all about using your body, definitely recommend going to hannahusband.com, checking it out, plug, plug, plug. Um, yes, I think it would be awesome. Um, yeah. So this is a podcast about modern dating.
Engaging Men in Healthier Conversations About Dating
00:09:43
Speaker
I try to aim it at conversations that I think mostly men would be interested in. I'm a cishet dude and so that's my perspective. And I think in general, there's a lot of room for healthier, vulnerable, more like empathic conversations around that. I think a lot of the content out there for dudes in regards to dating is,
00:10:09
Speaker
not great. And so yeah, so yeah, we've got a few things that you and I can talk about. Did you want to? Okay, so there's three things that I think we can do here that'll be fun. Or the three things that we started up with. Women wanting attention from men, which I think is a very interesting topic. Discovering yourself or deepening your relationship with yourself or
00:10:38
Speaker
going through a change with your own identity, which is something that you have a lot of awesome experience with. And also you are interested in maybe interviewing me, which I think would be so much fun. Do any of those three sound like a fun place to start? I feel like we should either start with the identity piece because we're kind of knocking at the door anyway with the little conversation about acting and self-awareness and or
00:11:09
Speaker
should start with me interviewing you because I think it could give some context to... I'm fascinated and want to hear more about your experience with modern dating. You mentioned to me that you started this podcast because
00:11:26
Speaker
you were hoping to inspire more cis-head dudes to have like vulnerable and deeper level conversations. And so I'm just like curious to hear more about that. Yeah. Big sigh. Yeah. Well, okay.
Societal Norms and Men's Roles in Dating
00:11:47
Speaker
Let's start there. Let's start there. Okay. Okay. So we'll curious about that. How? Like, how is it going?
00:11:54
Speaker
No, more so like...
00:11:59
Speaker
What are the kind of conversations? So again, I'll just share some identities that I hold that will maybe help people contextualize this as well. I am 39. I am a gender queer human who is currently embracing the label of non-binary to describe myself. I am very femme presenting. So like most of the time, people just automatically she-her me and I'm kind of like, okay, whatever, that's fine.
00:12:26
Speaker
I just don't feel like I have time to get upset about pronouns for myself, although I really champion them for other people, which is interesting. And I've been in a relationship with a cis dude since I was 21 that has been monogamous up to this point. We're exploring moving into and towards
00:12:53
Speaker
uh polyamory mostly because i've been realizing like i was never really cut out for monogamy uh and yeah so
00:13:05
Speaker
To that end, I have zero experience using dating apps. Literally have never made a profile. And I find the whole topic so fascinating and also feel weird because for someone my age, it's a little weird that I missed that whole category of experience.
00:13:27
Speaker
Sure. And so I'm curious, what are the kinds of conversations that you mostly find available for cis dudes in regards to dating and romance? What's actually happening versus what do you wish were happening?
00:13:43
Speaker
Sure. OK, so if you're when I was so I've been on the dating apps through like two major chapters of my life. The first time I was on the dating apps and I only have the two phases because things have changed pretty dramatically during the interim. But the first time I was on the dating apps was maybe 10 years ago. And that's how I met my now ex-wife.
00:14:12
Speaker
And then after my divorce, which is about four years ago, I got back out there on the dating apps. And they, I think, had changed, and dating culture had changed pretty dramatically. The conversations that are out there, and I think this is, they were probably there 10 years ago, but I think they've definitely grown in prominence, or at least in intensity,
00:14:41
Speaker
since then. Basically, a lot of the advice out there for men regarding dating is, I think, just like complete trash. I think it's a lot, I think essentially what happens
00:14:57
Speaker
is that men generally don't feel comfortable reaching out and asking for help around vulnerable things. Fair. Not like pointing a finger at you as a human. Literally, I was just talking about this with my friend who was raising two boys and we were like, yeah, there's so much pressure applied to
00:15:19
Speaker
the idea of masculinity that you should not need help and that to ask for help is somehow not fitting in with the masculine ideal, which I wish was not part of our cultural zeitgeist at all because everyone needs help with all kinds of things. And to be able to just name that, to be able to name our needs is something I'm super passionate about everyone getting better at right now.
00:15:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree. So I think what happens and what I certainly did when I first got out there was I noticed things and I had curiosities about like, okay, how do I use this weird newfangled internet thing to go and try to meet people so that I can hopefully meet somebody who wants to be my forever partner because I'm a monogamous person or anybody, you know, like whatever my, whatever, how do I use these things to go meet people, right? A lot of the advice and
00:16:17
Speaker
perspectives on the internet that you can find, which is like kind of where you go when you're not willing to ask for help is you go ask anonymously a thousand people for help or whatever. I think the voices for men that are dominant in that space are really toxic. I think they're basically selling snake oil. I think they're there to prey on men's insecurities. They're there to kind of feed
00:16:44
Speaker
to feed an impulse to blame others for difficulty, right? I think a big narrative in men's dating discourse is you're doing everything right. You're doing what you're supposed to be doing. The men who are being aggressive and ruggedly individualistic are correct, and everyone else is wrong. It's feminism that's wrong. It's the dating apps that are
00:17:14
Speaker
evil, which I don't want to defend the dating apps.
Critique of Toxic Dating Advice for Men
00:17:16
Speaker
I don't think they're great. But like, it's a very like, like, it's a it's a it's a voice that's saying, I hear you. It's really, really hard. And
00:17:30
Speaker
It's everyone else's fault. And for this week only, my online course has been discounted to $600. And if you pay in the next 24 hours, I will give you this PDF that will tell you how to improve your chances. And I should say I've never paid for one of those courses. I think I've seen a sampling of what I believe is probably in them. I've never actually done the homework and paid that much money to go do that.
00:18:01
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I think it's, uh, I think a lot of the, anyway, so I think that's what's out there. I think, I think it's mostly toxic, mostly patriarchal, um, uh, and very not vulnerable, right? It's, it's not about talking about what your needs are, your feelings. It's not about, um, like.
00:18:21
Speaker
commiserating or supporting beyond saying, I know it sucks. I know you need help. Click this link to pay me money so you can have my PDF or watch my video, you know? So what I think I want to be out there, what I want men to do, what I'm trying to do with this podcast that I, that I, there's not, you know, it's not, well, who knows if it's working, but what I want to do is just like make space for men to
00:18:49
Speaker
have conversations around dating. And like in general, I would love in general for men to be more comfortable being vulnerable, asking for help, not falling into when we can get into what this means, but not falling into sort of like that patriarchal role, right? Of quote unquote masculinity. And just like support each other and like get
00:19:12
Speaker
you know, for example, find intimacy in friendships, find intimacy in ways outside of romantic relationships, because I think we, I think men, I mean, I've probably said this 10 times in the pod by now, but like, I think men overload physical intimacy in romantic relationships, right? I think men, I think there's a stereotype that men are horny, right? And I think that
00:19:37
Speaker
I think that's maybe true. I don't know, everyone's different. But I think that comes from, my pet theory is that that comes from men not being able to find intimacy in any other way outside of sex. And so we end up craving that type of affection because we're not getting it in other places. Anyway, so I would like men to
00:20:00
Speaker
basically not do that for us to support each other and come to a very complex dating culture because the internet just poured gas all over a lot of, I think, cultural trends or fires, I guess, mixing metaphors.
Importance of Deep Friendships Beyond Romance
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah, but I think I wish men were coming to dating from a healthier place is what I'm hoping for. Yeah. Well, I love what you said about cultivating intimacy that is not rooted in sex and maybe also with friends. This is like a personal soapbox, but I think everyone needs more intimate friendships.
00:20:47
Speaker
it's been like the thing that makes my life significantly better is literally like leaning into friendships. And like part of that was me during the pandemic realizing that I am an extreme extrovert and like I am not okay only interacting with one person sometimes when my partner is also an introvert. So it's like my need and his need for interaction do not match. Um, but I,
00:21:17
Speaker
I think that having more relationships in our lives where we really let ourselves be seen and risk that vulnerability and practice rupture and repair, most of us don't practice that either A, at all, or B, maybe it happens in our romantic partnership
00:21:41
Speaker
especially if we're in the situation of that is gonna be the primary person, and so there's a lot of pressure on that relationship to be a thing, then maybe there gets to be some opportunities to practice. And then with friendships, it's mostly like we keep it cool, right? And we don't necessarily actually get into healthy conflict, and then we don't get the opportunity to practice real repair.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah. I sold. I mean, I'm kind of, can you, I'm picking up from context, but can you, can you quickly to sort of define rupture and repair? Yeah.
Conflicts as Growth Opportunities in Relationships
00:22:20
Speaker
So, um, just having conflict with someone, right? Like, um, you argue or you even just like mildly disagree or, you know, I say something carelessly that hurts your feelings.
00:22:38
Speaker
like any of those moments where we go, oh, ouch, or like, that didn't feel good. Right. Like that's a rupture. That's a, that's a, that's a rupture or a piece of conflict, whether or not both parties clock it. Right. It's a differentiating factor. But nonetheless, like those moments can actually serve to strengthen the relationship depending on how we respond to them. Right.
00:23:04
Speaker
I have needed to learn that it's important for me to say, hey, that didn't feel good, instead of just pretending it never happened, which is the family culture I come from, both because I needed to learn that I would stand up for myself. That's been a huge source of healing, is just trusting myself to advocate for myself. And then the other side of that is having the other person meet me and be like,
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah, I really get that that landed in this way. I'm so sorry. There was a really great podcast episode on apologies that I listened to a few years back that kind of
00:23:50
Speaker
Um, it was, uh, Brené Brown's podcast. And then the guest was Harriet Lerner. They did like a two-part series on like how to apologize and why it matters. And like, it was just like, what? Did not know. Have been receiving shitty apologies or not apologies my whole life. Cool. Cool. Cool.
00:24:11
Speaker
Uh-huh. I love that. I mean, my thing that I'll do that's kind of similar to that is sometimes it won't be like I'll do nothing. What I'll do is I'll assume that they know that they hurt me. Right. And and I'll just like assume that that's now common knowledge in the relationship. And I won't say anything about it. Right. And I definitely I'm doing better when I catch myself doing that. Right. When I'm in a healthy space or when I'm in a healthy state.
00:24:40
Speaker
I will say like, oh, hey, that hurt. Can we talk about it? Yeah, because this is the thing. And we're living in the era of cancel culture, which is this whole idea that you can't ever mess up. And if you do and it gets caught, then you're over, which is also like that's not allowing for the possibility of repair. That's interesting. Do you feel like that extends into relationships?
00:25:08
Speaker
Either a relationship that's, yeah. Absolutely. I mean the whole, there's so much internet, uh, you know, pop therapy rhetoric around like getting rid of toxic people and like protecting your energy and like setting boundaries, but in a very final kind of way. And there isn't a lot of discourse. I don't, I haven't run across around like, so to me, it's like, I expect people, can I swear on here?
00:25:37
Speaker
I expect people to fuck up because we're human. And sometimes we just aren't aware of each other, right? So even with the best of intentions, even holding the other person in high regard, there's inevitably going to be a moment in any relationship where you slip up and hurt that person's feelings or you act in a way that makes them feel unconsidered or whatever, right? To me, the
00:26:03
Speaker
how do I decide if this is a person I want to be in relationship with? Question is not based on do they ever fuck up? It's like, how do they handle those fuck ups when they happen? Yeah. Cause they're going to happen. A hundred percent. Absolutely. Like intimacy is full of conflict. It has to be otherwise people aren't being true to themselves. Like there's just, there's always going to be a mismatch needs situation or like, you know, somebody having an off day or whatever. Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker
I don't know when it happened for me, but one of the reasons that I'm grateful to be 45 and single and looking for connection is that I've learned some things about how I function in a relationship.
00:26:44
Speaker
And I think one of the things, I'm not sure where I learned it, but one of the things I learned to value is, well, in these terms, being able to repair well, right? Like fighting well, disagreeing well is something that I really value in a relationship. And so to the point where it's like, I'm almost excited when on like date three or four, something fucks up and you have a fight or disagreement.
00:27:09
Speaker
I almost like that because I go like, oh, awesome. I'm going to find out how well we, we repair. Yeah. Um, and that tells me a lot, you know? Um, yeah. Yeah, because it's, it, you get to learn in those instances, like how well does this person hold my experience and their experience? Are they able to hold both things as separate and valid? And are they able to like,
00:27:40
Speaker
actually listen to my perspective, even though it might be... Sometimes when we get hurt, we have to share something that sort of paints the other person in a negative light. And ideally, if we're on top of our game, we do that in a really graceful way and we go, when you did this, I felt this way, my feelings, I'm holding them, I'm not putting them on you, but can we talk about that?
00:28:08
Speaker
But even so, sometimes it's a little inflammatory and it bumps up against our stuff. And yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I don't know how we got there from talking about what I'm trying to do with the pod. Welcome to talking to me. We will go random places you never expected. That is a guarantee. I love it. I love it. Um, okay. What else, what else do you want to know about modern dating? Okay. So you answered some of my questions while you were chatting. So you're hoping that,
00:28:40
Speaker
It sounds like almost like you're hoping that there can be more of a supportive community for single men, cis dudes, who are like in the dating scene. So it's not just, you're not just getting preyed on by like coaches who are trying to sell dating advice, but there's actually a place to feel like you can talk about some of the things that come up with each other and with like more like peer to peer support is sort of what I'm hearing.
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, I would like in whatever small way that I can to move the needle on like just men's culture in general. And I think it's a bigger thing than just dating, but dating is kind of the scope that I have chosen to fight off, you know?
Loneliness in Modern Dating Culture
00:29:24
Speaker
And I think it's a good one. I mean, I don't, you know, again, like not in the dating scene. I just hear things peripherally, but like it doesn't seem like anyone's having a great time on the app. No, like I don't think that's the board. Um, so yeah, I guess, I guess that's sort of my other question. Like what?
00:29:54
Speaker
How would you describe your experience now in this season of your life, kind of like high level overview, in terms of like being a single person looking for, ooh, problems, saving local backup of audio? Yeah. Well, if it falls apart, it falls apart. Okay. This is indie podcasting. Yeah, it says free up space to continue. Oh.
00:30:25
Speaker
Okay, and back at a minor technical fun time adventure there, but we were talking about an overview of dating. Yeah, you were asking about Okay, yeah. Yeah. So given that I know have no experience of it, I just want to like hear
00:30:47
Speaker
Like imagine I'm an alien, which I kind of am, that has been dropped into this world where modern dating through apps exists. Tell me the story of like what that experience is from your perspective in this season of your life. Okay. Um, in a way it's been exciting and interesting because I do find it fascinating. Like I started a podcast about this, not on accident, you know,
00:31:17
Speaker
I think that the cultural trends that are impacting dating are also impacting bigger things in modern, particularly American or Western culture, things like masculinity, like the progress that feminism has made. I think it's all kind of coming together in a way that is
00:31:42
Speaker
Like it's interesting because it makes like my interest in feminism in general, like kind of actionable because it's impacting dating where women are, where men are. Um, and my day job is an internet stuff. So the fact that the dating apps, I think loom very large in dating culture also makes it very, very interesting. So in a sense,
00:32:06
Speaker
It's fun and fascinating because it's just so much fun to think about and so much fun to gather information from where I can find it, which isn't easy because it's a lot of anecdotal information that you just go out and talk to people about. And the dating apps are very tight-wipped about publishing data. So in that respect, it's very, very interesting. On a personal level, it's been intensely lonely.
00:32:35
Speaker
I am an introvert. And I think even before the pandemic, well, I definitely I don't want to say fell into the trap, but I followed the model of a man who I think I got a lot of my social interaction.
00:32:58
Speaker
out of a partner. I looked to her to be a lot for me and she, because of my ex-wife, who is wonderful, because she was very, very good at being social, I could just leave that to her and have a social life, have human interaction, have really meaningful, fulfilling friends through her. And I do have wonderful friends. I don't mean to discount the friends that I have, but
00:33:27
Speaker
I think I benefited a lot from her doing that, which I think is kind of a traditional approach for a lot of men, right? I think, yeah. So through the divorce, and when that started not working for me, and ever since then, it's been pretty lonely. And early on, getting back out into the dating pool,
00:33:53
Speaker
dating apps, I really despise them. I think they're addictive. I think anyone I have met on the internet, I have met despite the apps, not because of them. I met them on the apps, but I don't think they're there to help me succeed. And that's really frustrating. Yeah, and I think, you know,
00:34:21
Speaker
Because I care about this stuff, because I feel like I put in time and effort to understand it, I feel like I have a pretty decent view on how the internet is, I think, making it harder to have genuine human connections.
00:34:37
Speaker
being able to see that and put a name on it is helpful in a way, but it doesn't solve the problem. It depersonalizes it. It stops you from being like, this is only a me problem or something I'm doing wrong to like, okay, this is a phenomenon. These are bugs in the system, but it doesn't actually solve the bugs.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah, it makes clear, I think, the work that I can do. And it makes clear, I think, the work that others can do to overcome it. But that work is really hard, I think. I think the internet, I mean, this is understatement of the century, but I think the internet is fundamentally changing culture. Duh. For sure. 100%. OK, so is your sense right now
00:35:28
Speaker
I remember, this is to context this question, when I was chatting with some of my clients way pre-pandemic who were on the dating apps and dating, one of the things they shared that I thought was fascinating was that their sense at that time was that there were so many options.
00:35:48
Speaker
and they were noticing that they were much less likely to keep going with someone if it got slightly annoying or slightly weird or blah, blah, blah, because it was like, eh, just start over. Like sort of etch a sketch end of the world, start over seemed very easy, which I
00:36:06
Speaker
just found that really fascinating. So I'm curious, does it feel like there are too many choices or has that changed? And do you feel like there's a limit and you'd like to be going on more dates, but there aren't as many people that you're matching with or what's the sense of abundance versus scarcity right now? Sure. So I think it's different for men and for women and it's different depending on how old you are. Okay.
00:36:33
Speaker
just because we live in a society that values women for being young and it values men for being successful, right? And not saying that every woman sees men that way, not seeing that every man sees women that way, but I think like when you're just putting everybody in a giant arena and right, the trends, the like on balance preferences really are felt. So abundance, I think form,
00:37:01
Speaker
Well, I think for men and for women, it's easy to feel like there is abundance. It's easy to feel like I can just open up the app and do some swiping and find somebody who wants to chat with me. I think the apps, I don't think they're evil. I don't think the people who make the apps are actively trying to destroy society.
00:37:21
Speaker
However, I do think their incentives are clearly financial. I do think the apps, which is all to say, I think the apps are designed to be addictive. I think the apps, their metric for success is a match. They feel like the more matches they make, the better they're doing.
00:37:39
Speaker
which I think is a bad metric because it's not telling you that you're going to connect with someone well. It's not telling you that, you know, you're aligned in certain ways for what you're looking for in life. It's telling you you swiped right and they swiped right. Right. And it's making a little number in the red dot on your phone, one increment higher saying this many people matched with you and this many people liked you. Right. And so I think the apps are designed to make us,
00:38:07
Speaker
And in this way, I see them like social media. I think they're designed to make us feel better when more people want to talk to us, not when there is potential for it. Exactly. Exactly.
00:38:21
Speaker
And I think even the way that they're set up is also sort of aligned to make us think in terms of like Instagram. Like how can I make my profile attract as many people as possible as opposed to how can I make my profile attract the right person? To say nothing of how difficult it is to like reflect yourself in four pictures and some blurbs, right? For real. Yeah. So what is, what is the
00:38:44
Speaker
What are you working with here? What do you actually get to? What is the window through which you have to present yourself right now? On the apps? Yeah. And this is just the apps. A lot of people do meet. There are partners on the apps. The apps are one avenue. I want to put a pin in. I do think there are other ways to meet a potential partner.
00:39:10
Speaker
pursue those avenues as much as I can. And meeting people in the world, meeting friends, going out and doing things, I think that's all really, really important. Yeah. But the apps are fascinating. And it's hard. I think it is correct that most people think, I think most people are correct when they think that most single people do meet other single people on the apps. I do think it is the easiest way to do it. And because it's the easiest way, it's what most people do. So it's hard to
00:39:40
Speaker
I think do it other ways, which we can put a pin in that too. So what does that look like? You know, I go on an app and I've got my faves and I've got the ones that whatever, you know, for me that looks like having relatively recent pictures, having pictures that make me look like me, having pictures that make me look, I don't know, it's digital marketing, right? Like I'm trying to look good on the internet.
00:40:10
Speaker
which I think in general men are pretty bad at. I don't think I'm good at it. So it's that. And then it's trying to put sort of text in there that what I'm trying to do with that is give someone a feel for who I am so that they can feel safe. And so they can see a part of my personality that they might like.
00:40:38
Speaker
Now, as a man, as a cis dude, I am kind of trying to be like, generally, I'm trying to stand out. I'm trying to, I advise men often to like think like a spammer, like make it so your profile sticks out in an inbox loaded with other profiles, right? And that's true for my profile and that's true for
00:41:07
Speaker
a message that I might send. My job on the dating app is to be the thing that she taps on and be the person she wants to type text at.
00:41:18
Speaker
So that's really how I'm kind of trying as best as I can with, again, four pictures and some blurbs to grab someone's attention. When I can use video, I try to use video because it's more compelling. When I can use an emoji, I use an emoji because it's more compelling. I really think like an email spammer. I just want to be the thing that's going to grab your eye. Interesting.
00:41:45
Speaker
I just want the opportunity. I just want to grab her attention. Sure. So this is sounding like most women on the dating apps are being flooded with potential offers and maybe they don't even clear their queue. Is that kind of like? I want to put a big gnarly asterisk on most because I definitely know there are women who for a variety of reasons don't get that kind of attention. Got it.
00:42:14
Speaker
Again, we live in, I think, my pet theory. I don't have the empirical data to back this up, but ask your lady friends, girlfriends if you can see their dating app and see if they're showing it who likes you or how many matches they have. Generally speaking, I think because we live in a society that values women for being young and also that we look to men to be the romantic initiators.
00:42:42
Speaker
what men do is they just swipe right a lot. Some men swipe right on literally everyone. And what men do is they send
00:42:54
Speaker
messages a lot. And the apps will always give you the option to pay $2 or whatever it is to send a super message. And what that does is it puts you higher up in her card stack so that she will see you on her screen sooner. Well, because, I mean, think about it. If the app, I mean, the apps are here to make money, right? Yeah, for sure. But they have a problem because if... So let's say you made a dating profile. Yeah.
00:43:19
Speaker
I feel safe saying very rapidly have a large number of people who would be interested in chatting with you. You're a very beautiful human being. Yes. And the problem for the app developer is how do I queue those people? How do I put them in an order to optimize? Let's say, let's say again, let's say the metric that I'm using is a match. I want to make it so Hannah meets a person that
00:43:45
Speaker
they want to talk to and the, and other people in the apps meet people they want to talk to. Right. How do you solve that problem? And it's hard. Well, I'm like, just listening to that. It's like, right. Like the, it's echoing about like many aspects of diet culture to me, like theoretically, if you match someone successfully, they get off the app and they stop paying you. Right. So like,
00:44:15
Speaker
The goal of the user does not necessarily create more profit for the app company people. Yeah, yeah. Similar to like every diet ever, right? Like if you actually are quote unquote successful and the thing works, you're not buying that thing again. Yeah, yeah,
Addictive Nature of Dating Apps
00:44:40
Speaker
yeah. And yeah,
00:44:41
Speaker
Except that literally on file, I forget the name of the thing right now, but you know how businesses have to file their business plan with the city or the state or whatever that they're operating in? In the Weight Watchers filed business plan, they say that their business model is based on a repeat customer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so here's the thing.
00:45:09
Speaker
like Occam's razor, right? The simplest explanation is probably the right one. I don't think, I don't think anybody at the apps like sought, went out and tried to make a worse app. I think, okay. It's one of those ways that like capitalism intersects with humanity negatively, I think, right? Because everything has to be profit driven because we have to earn a certain amount of money to exist as a human in this culture because there is no social safety net to speak of.
00:45:39
Speaker
things become profit-driven that don't benefit by being profit-driven. And I don't think that's any human in that organization's fault or ill intent or anything. It's just like, we all got to survive capitalism. So how are you going to do it? It's a system. Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
I mean, I would even illustrate that with, I think, an example. 10 years ago, OkCupid was a dating app that asked you 500 questions about yourself. Everything from, do you like to drink beer, to are you monogamous, to what you prefer in bed. A wide variety of stuff. But things that will tell you something about someone. And you can even tell the app, I think this question is very important to me, I think this question is not that important to me, yada, yada, yada.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I think it kind of worked, right? Because you would match with someone and it would tell you how many questions they answered, which tells you how much effort they're putting into this. And you can see how they answered. You can see, do you agree? Do you disagree? Is this important to them, right? That model failed.
00:46:41
Speaker
because it takes, I think it failed, because it takes a longer time to set up that profile. It is easier to just upload four pictures from Facebook or Instagram onto Tinder or Hinge or Bumble. And a lot of those apps will do it for you automatically. You just say, hey, here's my Instagram. It'll go and grab your Instagram pics and you can just choose which one you want to do, right? Choose those pics you want to use. It's easier to get on there. And so the thing that you need, for if you're dating app, the thing that you need is people.
00:47:10
Speaker
Right. If you're any app, you need to like build your user base. Like that's like step one. Um, and that's what investors are looking forward to like fund you and like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And that's where we are. Right. So yeah, it's right. Which is yet another example of where like the needs of the business are undermining what actually might promote intimacy or like genuine connections.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, the aspect of it where I do kind of think they are, I don't see evil, but like, I think decisions were made that were, you know, it wasn't just like, Oh, gosh, shucks, we made we happened to make the the best app because it was easiest. I do think the apps are designed to be addictive. I do think they are
00:47:59
Speaker
easy to click on. They do move things around on the screen to make it, you know, to to to make it the easiest path to go the way that's going to to earn them money. Right. The notifications they send you that the things that they that the app like sparkles about and does animations with like all those little there are a bunch of little bitty decisions that are, I think,
00:48:25
Speaker
aimed at keeping you on there, opening the app again, and want you to just match. Not actually get to know somebody. They don't want to get you off the app. They just want to make the pathway to matching with someone as sparkly and fun as possible. And if they can charge you two bucks along the way every time you do it, that's what they want to do. Yeah, of course.
00:48:49
Speaker
So I think we went a good amount on apps and that kind of thing. I want to bring it back to something you mentioned earlier and that we've talked about a bit in terms of like the expectation of men to be the initiators or the pursuers. Tell me more about like, first of all,
00:49:18
Speaker
does that feel, when you search within yourself and know yourself, does that feel genuine to you, especially as an introvert, to be the one who has to initiate? To me, no. Okay. I might be weird in that way, but I'm a big giant softie.
00:49:41
Speaker
I'm very, I would say, sensitive to feeling rejected. It feels very vulnerable to me to walk up to a woman while she's walking her dog while I'm on the way to the gym and saying, oh, cute dog. That's too much for me. I don't think that's too much. I think there's a kind way to do that. And I definitely talk to people. I'm not fleeing from human interaction in real life.
00:50:08
Speaker
When I see someone who who I find attractive, like just seeing someone on the street and I like their style, I like whatever. Right. Yeah. I am very, very sensitive to. Can I tell whether or not this person would be comfortable with with an interaction like is this person looking at me? Am I getting a vibe that says this person would be open to the concept of talking to the human being right now?
00:50:38
Speaker
And unless I get a pretty darn clear green light, I assume it's a no-go, right? And I let them live their life and yada, yada, yada, right? Now, when it's somebody where
00:50:57
Speaker
it is clearly a potential romantic connection, like on the apps, right? Nobody is on the apps just to make friends. Like some apps- Yeah, I feel like that's the best part of it is that it takes away that like horrible moment where you have to wonder if someone is like looking or not looking. Like at least you know, we're here for the thing. Yeah, there were some variety of the thing. Right, sure. Yeah. Hopefully they've been honest about what they're looking for in their profile, but apparently that's also a toss up.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's we can talk about that if you want. But like, yeah, if I match with somebody, if I match with somebody on the app, I am extremely picky when I swipe on the apps. I only swipe on people. I tell myself, you know, if this person matches with me, do I really, really, really want to talk to this person judging as best as I can from four pictures and whatever little blurbs they put. Right. Yeah.
00:51:46
Speaker
You can request your data from the apps because of freedom. That's not freedom of information. It's like privacy laws. But you can email them and say, hey, I would like my data. And so I requested that from a few of the apps about a year ago. And Bumble actually gives you a pretty workable, it gives you the data in a pretty useful way. So I started working with that. And I found that I was swiping right on 5% of users of people that I would see.
00:52:16
Speaker
Which I think is anecdotally pretty low for men. And I was getting swiped right on a little higher than that. But my match rate was incredibly low, because I was being picky. Anyway, all that to say, once I match with someone, I don't want to say I'm extremely aggressive, but I am very intentional. I use that space to, my goals are to,
00:52:46
Speaker
First and foremost, let her try to find a way to, as much as possible in a freaking app on a phone, make her feel safe.
Creating Safe and Compelling Dating Profiles
00:52:56
Speaker
Let her know that I'm somebody that she can talk to, that it's a non-stressful, non-pressuring chat room. It's a chat room. I think a lot of women get on those apps and dudes are like,
00:53:08
Speaker
I don't know. Um, not great. Uh, and then, you know, I want to make her laugh, right? So my, my usual advice in a chat is I want to make her, I want to send her a message that makes her smile, asks her a question. So she responds to me and asks her a question that's going to have a very short answer because another dude's joke or question or whatever is like one tap away, right? Which again is like,
00:53:35
Speaker
Banana, that's not what I'm, anyone who's listened to any of this podcast knows all I do is ramble, right? So like, that's right. Right. You and me both. Yeah. So, so in the app, in terms of like men being the aggressors, I don't, like if a woman, every now and then I bump into a woman on the app who does just want to like derive the conversation, who's like, Hey, Scott, I really loved what you said about your stupid bidet joke on your app.
00:54:01
Speaker
or whatever on your profile and really just wants to get into it, wants to talk to me. On some of my apps, I have the podcast linked because some apps that you do that, sometimes a woman will go and listen to a podcast and say, oh my gosh, I listened to this one episode. I love that. I love that when women are the initiators,
00:54:30
Speaker
It doesn't happen very often at all. Yeah. It doesn't always turn into a date because oftentimes, I mean, here's the thing. Women on the apps get a lot of attention, you know? Yeah. And so I don't want to put this in not an unkind way, but like. Yeah, get it out there messy. We'll clean it up. It's fine.
00:54:57
Speaker
A lot of times the women who are initiating with me are not necessarily the kind of women that I'm looking to connect on the apps for whatever reason. Not my type, age range, looking for kids, like different incompatible things. Right. But I don't know. We're talking about men being the aggressors. I have learned to do it.
00:55:24
Speaker
in my experience. It sounds like you have a system. I have a system, yeah. Well, what I'm hearing is that you understand the nature of the game that is being played. And I don't mean that in a... I think there are a lot of analogies around dating and potential romantic interactions that are like, oh, it's a game and he got game. I don't mean that. I mean, you literally have
00:55:53
Speaker
understood the rules and metrics and sort of like playing field that is this modern internet fueled dating thing.
Improving Success on Dating Apps Through Gender Dynamics
00:56:04
Speaker
And you have like thoughtfully strategized about how to navigate that in a way that hopefully will actually like connect you with a human in a genuine way, which is like what you, it sounds like you're longing for.
00:56:21
Speaker
Yeah. And thank you. And I think that's fair. I think what I would say is the biggest step that I think a man can take in terms of understanding what they're doing on the apps and increasing their chances of success. But I think it is success, right? Yeah. Is to understand how the apps are for women. Yeah.
00:56:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think that I think for sure. Yeah. And there's there's no real avenue that there's not a lot of discourse around men saying this is what it's like for me and women saying this is what it's like for me. And of course, across the different age ranges, right? Yeah. Okay, men. Do you think this is partly? Okay, keep going.
00:57:03
Speaker
Well, just what I want to say, the last thing I want to say there is that I think men often assume that the apps, that their experience of the apps is very similar to a woman's. And I think women often assume that their experience in the apps is very similar to a man's. And I think that is untrue.
Friendship Between Men and Women
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:19
Speaker
Yes. So this brings me to my other desire for humanity, which is that more men and women are friends and have intimate communication. And one of the stereotypes that makes my skin crawl and maybe will end up being divided on this is this stereotype that men and women can't be friends, that there's always going to be some kind of like... I'm like, no. Literally, some of my best friends all of my life have been dudes. Yeah.
00:57:47
Speaker
you know, my business partner of 10 years, like objectively very attractive man. Have I ever felt attracted to him? No. Were we really good friends for a long time? Yes. Did we run a business together? Absolutely. Like people would assume that we were a couple quite often and we would be like, no, we actually have other partners. Like, but it's just like,
00:58:11
Speaker
I think that we're missing a huge opportunity for transmuting the patriarchy by not having more intimate discourse and genuine friendship between cis men and women. Yeah. Hard agree. How on earth are we going to come down different on that? You never know.
00:58:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think I mean, I think it is the patriarchy, right? Like, it is that, that, that model where men should not be like, I think, I think, to kind of to go back to sexual intimacy, being the only outlet or channel for intimacy with men, right? Where if you think like, if I am being vulnerable, if I'm on this call talking to my
00:58:54
Speaker
friend who I met 20, we should talk about how we met 20 some odd years ago, you know, about intimate, vulnerable things, especially about sex, especially about relationships, like, I have to be hitting on her. Yeah, right. Like, like, there's no way to not write, but that's not true. But you know, that we're told that you can't be that the only way you can be intimate, the only way you can be vulnerable, men are told, I think has to be with a woman you're having sex with.
00:59:24
Speaker
Well, and I think this plays into the other shitty stereotype that's ruining things for all of us across the board, which you touched on earlier, that men are horny, right? Men are constantly driven to make sex happen, which then kind of puts
00:59:46
Speaker
women and people who date men into this category of having to be the gatekeepers of whether or not we have sex with them because the assumption is that we're always going to be like having this onslaught. Essentially, it's like if you're hot enough, you will constantly have an onslaught of people trying to have sex with you and it's your duty to like make sure you don't slut it up too much and like only let through the right people. And then it just sets up this like horrible dichotomy of like
01:00:16
Speaker
I don't think that's actually a dichotomy, but that dynamic. Yeah. No, I'm with you. It's so horrible. It's so horrible. And then you have to be careful to make people feel safe because the assumption is that you're a predator, which is like, oh my gosh. It's deeply horrible because the women, and this happens to young women very early, like gross early, right? That I think young women, young attractive women,
01:00:49
Speaker
you know, learn that they have this value. I don't want to call it a power because I don't think it's a power, but they learn that they have this thing that they can exchange for something, right? And I think it takes away from that kind of intimacy as a connective, like really beautiful, like transcendent
01:01:17
Speaker
wonderful thing. I almost want to say like divine, like, I think connecting with another person, especially romantically can be a really wonderful, beautiful thing. Yeah. And we're totally fucking it up by well, we live in a system we live in a system that has evolved over time. Yeah, that really fucks up our chances of finding that kind of really awesome connection that I maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm projecting but like, I think a lot of people really enjoy a deep
01:01:47
Speaker
resonance, wonderful, vulnerable connection with another person, you know? Oh, 100%. I think we all long for it. And we all have both conditioning, like societal conditioning that gets in the way and like lived experience or, and or if you want to call it like trauma or like attachment wounding that also interrupts our ability to
01:02:15
Speaker
show up in a way that can invite that kind of death, right? It's like somebody has to go first, right? Somebody has to be like, okay, I'm peeking open the doors on like actual me and like I'm letting myself be seen or like I'm asking for help, right? We have to sort of give people an opportunity to step in closer. And it is scary. It's, and, and there's,
01:02:42
Speaker
I think both internal stuff and conditioning stuff that can really, really get in the way. Yeah. I think, so to bring it back to men as the initiators, I think this is an interesting conversation. Yeah, yeah. I think, and this is totally anecdotal in my experience, but I find that taking that first step with someone after you've talked a little bit, after it seems like, hey, there might be something here. There might be that chemistry there. I find that I am the initiator when it comes to emotional vulnerability.
01:03:13
Speaker
No, that might just be a Scott thing, because Scott might be a weirdo. But I think, I don't know. Again, maybe it might just be the whole like, everyone feels like they have a thousand options thing. But I feel like I'm often the initiator, even in that regard, which is a little bit surprising, I think, because I think often women have more facility with that kind of vulnerability. For sure. But the big thing here is, well, okay, my big thing here is that
01:03:42
Speaker
I think that most of the women I've talked to about this kind of thing, and certainly most of the women I've dated, which maybe it's just something about who I'm attracted to, but a lot of women need to feel pursued in order to feel that chemistry, that thing inside, that undefinable thing, that spark, the heat in your heart, whatever it is, that they cannot feel that romantic connection
01:04:10
Speaker
if they don't feel pursued in some way. It doesn't necessarily have to be like, you paid for dinner, or you're the one texting first, or you're the one texting more, or whatever metric that is, right? Something has to be happening to make her feel pursued. My pet theory on that, and I'm not a, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of debating nature versus nurture, because I don't really know, even if we could figure out, am I hardwired to pursue, is she hardwired to be pursued? I don't really know.
01:04:38
Speaker
Like if that's how we are, that's how we are. I wonder if it'll be different though for future generations. I wonder if the kids will be different, you know? Yeah. Especially the more that gender gets exploded as a binary concept and the more that people play in the fluid, the gender fluid pool. Yeah. I'm curious about that too.
01:05:09
Speaker
Okay. Can I segue? Yes. For sure. I was just like, as you were saying that I was like, have I been like, is that true for me? Like, do I need someone to pursue? And I think
01:05:26
Speaker
Just in my data point of one, I don't think that's true.
Friendship as a Basis for Relationships
01:05:31
Speaker
Most of the people that I've actually had romantic intimate relationships with, we were friends first, ironic, because I know I just said things can happen. But for me, the thing that helps me feel it or that has helped me historically is having that almost safety of foundation of friendship and feeling
01:05:56
Speaker
There's a, there's like a, I don't know what the word foundation is really the word that keeps coming up, but I hear you. Yeah. That there's some flexibility. There's some like, it's a, we're already on a playground together versus like, we're walking this tight rope of, are you going to continue to find me attractive? Do I continue to find you attractive? Is that going to continue to match up?
01:06:25
Speaker
kind of situation. Am I hearing you right? Like when you're when you're friends with someone first, or like the friends first approach, if you will. Yeah. I think that can work really well, because it's just a lower pressure environment. Totally. Like it's you can see how someone operates, understand who they are, get a feel for who they are. And that can be, I think,
01:06:48
Speaker
I mean, I think it's a great way to get to know people. So, okay, that pin that I put in, like not the apps, right? Meeting people through friends, going to like events where you go to events or things that you like where you can meet people with similar interests. I think that just like community is the best way to meet a partner. I think the internet is stupid and it will always be stupid and like no amount of
01:07:15
Speaker
AI is going to make it tinder better or hinge better or whatever. I think that environment where you meet someone through a friend of a friend, you meet them in a context that feels safe, you have some background on their values, there are safety nets around behavior. Somebody you know through a friend isn't going to be
01:07:35
Speaker
totally garbage to you because you have a friend in common. You can say you will never believe what Scott did and that will have social repercussions. Not that I think there are awful actors out there doing that, but I think just that safety net does a lot to make it a safe space and that's where a romantic vulnerable thing can begin to blossom, can begin to grow.
01:08:03
Speaker
Yeah. So I mean, as much as possible, I am trying to kind of meet people the old fashioned way. Yeah. Um, it's just hard. It's really hard to do that. I feel that even for making new friends, like coming out of the pandemic, I mean, not that it's over, it's COVID still here, but you know, coming out of the intense lockdown period of the pandemic, um, you know, I was like, Oh, I really miss being with people in person and like,
01:08:33
Speaker
A number of our friends had babies during the pandemic, and so the friendship possibilities landscape with them has drastically shifted. Obviously, I'm still trying to maintain those relationships because I care about those people, but reality is when you have a two-year-old, adult conversation is not really possible. Yeah, you're booked.
01:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, and that wasn't meeting my need for really dropping in with people and having intimate and meandering conversations. And so then I was like, how do I make new friends at 40? It's a weird thing. Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:09:20
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, you wanted to segue and then I re-rooted us. So let's do it. Well, okay. So I would love that. So we're talking about like how, how the kids are going to be better because gender is, is, is, I want to say loosening up,
Gender Identity Fluidity and Personal Journey
01:09:35
Speaker
right? More and more people like not conforming to. Yes. Okay. Let's talk about defaults versus like being able to learn from people and communities who have already had to abandon the defaults.
01:09:51
Speaker
I would love that. Okay. So let me just take a, take a, so we talked about this a little bit. I want, I would love to give you some time to talk about sort of your identity journey. Sure. Um, because I love hearing you talk about that. I've heard you talk about it a little bit on another podcast. I want to give you space for that. Um, but I want to, we talked about this a little bit before we were preparing, I have this weird idea that I think
01:10:16
Speaker
cishet dudes sort of need to go through a process of re-identifying. And I'm not saying there's a bunch of Kinsey zeros out there that need to find out that they're two, three, fours, or fives, right? I think there are a lot of genuinely heterosexual people out there, but who kind of need to go through a process of seeing themselves and how they operate romantically in a different way.
Redefining Masculinity and Societal Expectations
01:10:46
Speaker
And I think that process, and I definitely don't want to assume, and I'm sure it's very, very different, you know, actually finding out that you are not the quote unquote default or not what you thought you were, not what you think society expects of you, right? But like, I think a lot of what society expects of heterosexuality is so harmful. Insofar, I mean, it's just, and like, like being not that, and I'm really
01:11:15
Speaker
I don't want to say that being not that is like coming out as queer. Let me put it this way. I have found conversation with many of my queer friends to be so useful because you have gone through a journey of having a day where it's like, oh, you know what? I am not what I thought I was yesterday or 10 days ago or 10 years ago.
01:11:42
Speaker
Yeah. So it's interesting because for me, it's been in a way, in a lot of ways, a reclamation.
Views on Marriage and Identity Development
01:11:50
Speaker
I remember as a teenager being like, I don't think I'm ever going to get married. That whole notion seems wack.
01:11:59
Speaker
like most married couples I know are either kind of miserable or have gotten divorced. My own parents got divorced when I was four. And so I remember being skeptical of like long-term partnership. And I remember having the thought that like, you know, I discovered my love of Shakespeare at 12. And I remember shortly thereafter having this thought of like, oh, like,
01:12:26
Speaker
I don't want to rearrange my life for a relationship. I need to be actively pursuing my artistry and my passion. And if a relationship happens to run parallel with that course that I'm on for a certain amount of time, great. But that's the most important thing, which I think is a rare notion in terms of
01:12:52
Speaker
heteronormative young woman dreams. I never dreamt of having a wedding. I never dreamt about having kids. In many ways, I've sort of been like a spinster crone since I was like 12 in terms of my sense of myself and my values. I don't love that term, but I know what you're saying. Yeah. No, I'm the crone archetype. I'm here for it. I'm ready.
01:13:20
Speaker
I was also like, bless my mother, she really was part of that kind of like early 80s wave of feminism that was very like, you don't need to perform for the male gaze, women could be anything they want. And I was very like, I look back now and I'm like, oh, I was very genderqueer. I just didn't know what those words were because in my mom's version of feminism, it was like,
01:13:49
Speaker
really elevated the womb and the menstrual cycle and like being a woman was like this sacred thing. And so she spoke to me as like, you're a girl and you're a woman and you're going to have these experiences. And because you're a woman, you have access to your into it. And there was this very, like, as I later came to label it, like very gender essentialist thinking of like, women are this, men are that. And
01:14:17
Speaker
There weren't really any non-binary role models for me growing up. I grew up in the Bay Area, so there were gay men and lesbian women, and there were butch lesbian women, but I didn't...
01:14:35
Speaker
I don't know. It took me a while to figure out who I was attracted to. I definitely came into that later than most of my peers, but like pretty quickly was like cis dudes.
Labels and Self-Discovery
01:14:45
Speaker
Yup. Having feelings for them. Um, so I was like, okay, I must not be a lesbian, even though I like kind of vibe with a lot of the like more like masculine of center expressions of womanhood that I was seeing at the time. Got it. Um, and then I also got like,
01:15:06
Speaker
teased and label the lesbian a lot in my life, in my early life. And so I think I like, I think that was like part of the like, okay, let me veer left and like perform heterosexuality even harder. That sucks, I'm sorry. Kids are mean, you know, I don't think anyone was really like, trying to
01:15:31
Speaker
to do a thing. I think they just reach for whatever's close at hand. This is a whole tangent. Where do I really want to go here? Anywhere you want. So yeah, I don't know.
01:15:52
Speaker
There's probably a period in my like 30s, mid to late 30s, where I was living in back in Oakland. I've been living in on the East Coast. And most of my friends here are queer and or poly. I was one of the few like straight couples.
01:16:10
Speaker
We'll put that in air quotes for now. But how I thought of myself then, right? But even within that, like I, you know, Forrest and I aren't married. We have no designs on kids. And in my early thirties, everyone was like, but you guys are so good together. Like, aren't you going to, don't you want to get married? I was like, oh, that's all right.
01:16:31
Speaker
don't you want to have kids? No. And wow, that's a personal question person that I barely know that's a client at the gym. You know what I mean? Like it's just amazing how people feel like it's casual conversation to ask you about things like that. But, um,
01:16:53
Speaker
like now I can look back and see the way that I felt at home with my queer friends and be like, oh, because me too. But then I was just like, huh, so interesting that I like feel more comfortable around queer people than like quote unquote straight people. And I always chalked that up to the fact that I didn't aspire to a lot of the heteronormative
01:17:21
Speaker
benchmarks in relationship that you're supposed to want. And I always found it so like affirming and inspiring to talk to my like, particularly like my queer Polly friends who are in the sort of like kink scene in the Bay Area, because there's this very strong culture in that group of like, be clear about what you're into.
01:17:48
Speaker
find out what your partner's into, see where you match up, assume that you won't match up on all of the data points, and then decide how each of you are going to get your needs met that don't line up with each other. Yeah. It's an amazing framework for communication. So good. Yeah. And that's a thing that I think
01:18:12
Speaker
queer folks and poly folks and relationship anarchists have been able to glom onto first. Because once you leave heteronormativity behind, it's sort of like, okay, well, how do we design relationships? But like, I wish everyone came to relationship from that place of like, hey, you person sitting in front of me, me, how do we want to design this relationship?
01:18:42
Speaker
And so I really am resonating with what you're saying of like straight cis dudes need to come out because it's like the claiming of self, the internal excavation of like, if I, if I say, no, I am not the default things that I've been told that I am and I actually allow myself the space
01:19:05
Speaker
to connect with my own authentic desire, to connect with what lights me up, what kinds of connections or interactions really feel genuine to me, what ways of expressing myself feel good, both verbally and physically. How do I like to present myself? I think we all- Which is a skill. We all deserve to ask those questions and answer them in a unique way. Yeah.
01:19:39
Speaker
one of the ways that patriarchy harms everyone is that it goes, oh, you're a man, you do this. Oh, you're a woman, you do this. And there's these defaults and like the closer you are to those idealized defaults, the kind of harder it is to break away from them. Because you're like, if I just push it a little bit further, then I will be the idealized man or I will be the idealized woman.
01:20:07
Speaker
Whereas I think for people that really don't fit or really chafe, you kind of have to define yourself anyway, because you're like, well, failed out of that default. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, thank you. First of all, thank you so much for sharing and for being so vulnerable. Um, thank you so much.
01:20:32
Speaker
So okay, I want to sort of like contrast your experience with not that there's like a generic experience of being queer or any, but like in your story, it sounds to me like because you sort of could pass as straight, right?
01:20:50
Speaker
because part of what you're experiencing now is your identity, because a part of that sort of is a piece of straightness, whatever, that sort of pulled you in that direction, right? Because you had that template there, that's what you went to, right? I think for... No? Well, I was just gonna say, at many points in my 18-year partnership, I've been like, huh, never planned for this. Interesting. Right?
01:21:22
Speaker
Um, it surprised, it has surprised me at many points, but I think that like one of the things that keeps Forrest and I together is that we both have like a shared commitment to growth and to like recommitting and being like, one of the things we say to each other is I choose you. And sometimes when we've had like a bad fight and we're like making up, we'll be like, Hey, I choose you.
01:21:48
Speaker
Like, yep, that sucked. And in this, I want to be with you. I want to continue to grow together.
01:21:56
Speaker
I love that. It's funny, right? Because I think from the outside, we do tick a lot of the assumed boxes of heteronormative success, right? We own a house together. We're the right height differential. We wear a similar color palette. We look good when we go out in the world together. Right.
01:22:26
Speaker
I don't know where
01:22:43
Speaker
What is it like to find an identity that was not necessarily like templated for you? It was not like something that was in culture, right? Like there are more and more and more and like we're shaking up gender and stuff, right? But like when I was young, I didn't know what a non-binary person was until I don't know, probably my thirties, right? And so I'm curious about that because I'm wondering if like the experience of having a template, having other people who are out there
01:23:11
Speaker
who are like, hey, I think I'm like this, you know, is makes it a different journey going in that direction than it feels like to go like, I don't know, I'm not sure what template I meant to follow. But I know I'm not that. Yeah, because I think for me, because let's make this about me. Yeah. But like, I feel like there is a template of masculinity. Yeah.
01:23:32
Speaker
that is there. And gosh, we didn't even get into the divine masculine, divine feminine next episode. But I know that's not for me. I look at that. And if you really want me to, I can go into details about why. But it doesn't take me long to be like, eh, I'm out. That's not me. But I'm a curious human being. I experimented throughout my life. And I am very clear that I'm a Kinsey Zero. I'm straight but not narrow. But I kind of know what does it for me.
01:24:02
Speaker
But there aren't a lot of templates out there, and I'm not saying I'm not my gender or that identity, but there aren't that many templates out there for what I do want to be. I know what I don't want to be, right? So I was curious to hear any wisdom you might have. What is that experience like? How do you... Because I mean, and let's be real, it took
01:24:26
Speaker
so much more courage and heart and amazingness for, I think, you to go through your journey than it has taken me to go through mine. I want to acknowledge that and all that kind of stuff. But I think that journey of self-discovery without a template,
Jealousy, Judgment, and Unacknowledged Desires
01:24:42
Speaker
does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I will say in my experience, I got to meet some non-binary or gender non-conforming folks.
01:24:58
Speaker
through the gym that I was working at in Oakland. I remember there was a person who joined and they sent an email being like,
01:25:07
Speaker
You're a CrossFit gym. I'm a non-binary person. My pronouns are they, them. At my last gym, here are some ways that we adjusted the language within the CrossFit system so that it would feel more welcoming to me. Would you be willing to make these changes? Because like in CrossFit, I don't know how familiar you are with that or everyone listening is, but basically there's like a
01:25:29
Speaker
workout of the day, and then there's usually a men's RX and a women's RX, meaning the version of the workout that men are expected to do, the version of the workout that women are expected to do. And they're scaled differently to make up for the athletic perceived biological differences in men and women. And I just remember the gym owner sharing that email with me and being like, oh my God,
01:25:59
Speaker
how fucking cool that this person is able to like advocate for themselves. And then it sparked a lot of conversation amongst the coaches about like, yeah, it is kind of weird that we split it this way. Like really, there should just be like a heavier RX and a lighter RX. And then people should self-select based on like, what's going to be the right amount of challenge for them? Like why are we, um,
01:26:26
Speaker
So I just remember having like so much admiration for this human and then like we ended up kind of becoming like chatty gem friends and almost like a tiny pang of what I now realized was jealousy. Like there was a tiny bit of me that was like,
01:26:41
Speaker
Like there was like a little bit of like longing and I don't think I even clocked it at that time. I just clocked it as like, Oh, I think this person is cool and I'm drawn to them and I want to like be their friend. But now looking back, I'm like, no, there was a part of me that was like, I want to know myself the way that you know yourself and be able to like boldly express who I am and literally reshape the environment to be more friendly to me. Like how it was just like,
01:27:11
Speaker
incredible. Um, but yeah, I think without, without role models, without seeing what's possible. So I've realized for me in general, like seeing someone in real time, someone that I get to interact with in the real world or that I know personally expand in any particular way really cements like somatically in my being.
01:27:40
Speaker
that expansion as possible for me too. You feel it? Yeah. You see it and you're like, okay, that feels possible. Yeah.
01:27:49
Speaker
You're like, oh, cool. One of my good friends was in a similar partnership dynamic and was sharing with me about starting to open up and they were both starting to date other people. And I was like, oh, that's a thing that's possible. And there they are doing it and having difficult and also wonderful conversations and finding their way forward.
01:28:17
Speaker
or some of my friends who were running their own businesses before I really stepped into being business for myself. Seeing people that you could theoretically reach out and touch, doing a thing that you've told yourself, especially with the business thing is a great example. I had a story that I didn't even realize was in there. There was a script running in the background that people who started their own businesses were a particular kind of person and that I was not that kind of person.
01:28:48
Speaker
And so for a lot of my life, I was like, okay, cool. I just have to keep getting a job. And two things happened. Like one, I got close to the business owner of the last gym that I worked at and was like, Oh, you're a mess. You're just extremely charismatic and you were in the right place at the right time. Cool. Cool. Also he was younger than me, which like, for some reason, like exploded that like kind of magical, uh,
01:29:14
Speaker
you have a leg up. That makes sense. I hear that. And then also seeing like one of my fellow personal trainers from two gyms prior that I had worked at like launching her own business and letting it evolve, like starting to get into doing different stuff and like finding her way. I was like, Oh, you can do this thing called having a business very differently. And the people who are doing it aren't like special sauce. They just did it. Yeah.
01:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's a very human thing, right? You bounce around, you meet people, and you bump into somebody, you go like, oh, you've got something going on that I think might ring true for me. And I think, I don't know, again, which is all beautiful. And again, thank you for sharing. But again, to make it about me, to make it about all the cishet dudes. So I think when there aren't
01:30:09
Speaker
clear role models. Cause I remember for a while in my life being like, I need a role model for like how to be a person. Um, look for places where you feel jealous or judgmental. The very first non-binary person I met who was femme presenting, but introduced themselves with they, them pronouns. I was like, why?
01:30:35
Speaker
Like I had so much judgment for that person. Interesting. So we often judge things that we have decided are not accessible for ourselves. And so we go, why do you deserve to have it? Ooh. Right? Yeah. Like those desires that we've shoved so far down, we don't even acknowledge and know that they're a desire, often will sneak out. They'll find a fissure.
01:31:05
Speaker
in the foundation and come out as judgment. So keeping a journal or a note or on your phone or whatever, but just starting to track where am I feeling judgmental of people? Where am I feeling judgmental, particularly like ways of being? And or where am I feeling jealous or envious?
01:31:32
Speaker
that can sometimes be a way in to figuring out some unmet or unacknowledged desires within ourselves, which often our desires tell us who we are in their purest form, not our shallow, like, I want ice cream. But there is
01:31:52
Speaker
the self longs to be expressed. And so we will find little mirrors in people, even if it's like a facet of that person and they aren't themselves the role model that you need. We can find little glimmers of reflections of our true selves in facets of other people. And I think as nonjudgmentally as you can, noticing where you're having judgment and jealousy can be a way into that. And I love that. And
01:32:23
Speaker
Because sometimes if you catch yourself, if you notice yourself judging something in someone, a part of that can be, why do you deserve to have that when I can't have it? And so in a way, you're identifying a way of being that's something that you want.
Conclusion and Future Discussions
01:32:42
Speaker
Yeah. That you've subconsciously decided is off the table for you.
01:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, my brain is like bouncing around trying to figure out how I do that. It's one to be with for a while, for sure. Yeah, I love that. It's a helpful practice. Well, okay, we've done this for like an hour and a half now. I know, I just realized what time it was. Thank you for giving me so much of your time. I guess that's unless there's anything else you wanted to touch on. I think we'll have to wrap it up there. No, I think it's a good time to close out.
01:33:15
Speaker
Yeah. Hannah, thank you so much for making time. I love having these conversations with you. Anytime you bump into something else that you're like, you know what I think straight dudes need to hear about? You got a platform here and I'd love to chat with you again anytime. There are more things. Let's do an episode too. Yeah. Honestly, anytime. Anytime you want to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Everybody go to hannahusband.com. I'll put it in the show notes.
01:33:41
Speaker
Um, this is an amazing human to learn about how to use your body from.
Promotional Sign-Off
01:33:45
Speaker
Um, I think, uh, yeah, I, I, yeah, cool stuff. Um, all right, Hannah, thank you so much for joining me on wish you all the best. Thanks for having me.
01:34:00
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the episode that you've gotten this far. I really, really appreciate it. That was my talk with Hannah Husband. Her website, again, is just hannahusband.com. I like what she's doing with her business stuff. I like her perspective on identity and thinking about modern relationships. I think they're really smart about that stuff, and I had a lot of fun.
01:34:30
Speaker
talking to her about it. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation. As always, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate it. This is a little passion project podcast. And if you're out there listening, yeah, I appreciate it. I really do. If you want to reach out, the best way to reach reach me right now is on Instagram at wish you all the best pod. I put up little snippets there when there's a new pod out. Yeah, and I would love to hear about
01:34:59
Speaker
how you found it or what you think about it or why you listen. Yeah, that would be great. And I appreciate it. If you are listening, I really do appreciate it. So thank you for coming along. So yeah, that's what I got this time around. This is kind of a long one. Thank you for listening to the whole thing. And I will hopefully have more for you soon. Okay, that's it. Thank you so much. And yeah, catch you next time.