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Courtney Boyer - Women, Sex, and the Dutch
77 Plays1 year ago
Super lovely chat with Courtney Boyer! Her book is Not Tonight, Honey. She focuses her work mainly on women who are struggling to feel sexual desire in relationships, but there is so much overlap between that and the conversation around men and modern dating! I'm very grateful she made the time to chat. Enjoy!
music - "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch -https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch - Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome back. I wish you all the best personal podcast about modern dating. I'm Scott Simmons, your host. And this time I had the opportunity to chat with Courtney Boyer. Courtney is an author and a coach. She focuses on women in relationships who are having trouble with sexual desire.
Courtney's Book and Insights for Men
00:00:40
Speaker
Her book is called Not Tonight Honey, appropriately.
00:00:43
Speaker
Why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it Courtney's expertise and her primary area of interest is you know about women in relationships and the focus of this podcast is mostly men who are Looking to get into relationships. So at first it doesn't seem like maybe the perfect The perfect match but I think it's actually not true I think there's a lot to
00:01:13
Speaker
Well, I really love that conversation, and I think there's a lot of understanding there. Yeah, that's really, really, really valuable. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've heard me say this a whole bunch, that I think men and women
00:01:29
Speaker
in dating really benefit from understanding where the other side is coming from and Courtney's expertise and what she brings to the conversation here and what she brings and the understanding that she brings in her book, I think are all really, really valuable for men.
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I certainly did. I will say we tried to record this once previously, Courtney's in Germany, and the internet broke for us the last time we tried to record this. And so there's a whole conversation that unfortunately you'll never hear because the recording broke.
Courtney's Background and Book's Purpose
00:02:06
Speaker
So you'll hear us talk a little bit about that. But I thought this one was a lot of fun, even better, honestly. So yeah, I really hope you enjoy it. Yeah, and with that, here's my conversation with Courtney Boyer.
00:02:24
Speaker
Awesome. Amazing. Courtney Boyer, welcome back to wish you all the best. We tried once before and we had audio technical difficulties. Everyone is just going to have to take my word for it. We had an amazing conversation that they're never going to hear. But let's have another one. How are you? Yeah, sounds great. Thank you, Scott. I'm excited to be back and excited to chat with you again. You're the first second guest that I've had where no one gets to hear the first one. Yeah.
00:02:52
Speaker
OK, OK, so you, Courtney Boyer, you're an author, you're a therapist. Is that the right term? So I'm a trained therapist, but I'm not licensed anymore. So I consider myself a coach now. Got it. Got it. And that's because you've been moving between different places, like you're being licensed in. You're in Germany right now. Yes. Yeah. Fascinating. You have a book. Your book is called Not Tonight, Honey. I guess you can hear it. OK.
00:03:18
Speaker
not tonight, honey, why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it. I've read through some of it, skimmed all of it, and I love it. I got to say, I love your writing style. Thank you. It's a very kind of conversational approach to a very sensitive issue. Yeah. And I love that. Thank you. I will say it's definitely not aimed at me, right? This is a book mostly aimed, I think, at women who are in relationships and experiencing
00:03:49
Speaker
difficulties with feeling desire.
Understanding Gender Dynamics in Relationships
00:03:52
Speaker
Is that fair? Yeah, I think it's fair. When I was writing the book, I would say it's predominantly aimed at heterosexual women or individuals who identify as women. I have been surprised by how many men have actually read the book and how they've actually really appreciated reading a book that wasn't written towards
00:04:14
Speaker
them but towards their female partners and so they felt like they gained a lot of insight from it because they were able to see a woman's perspective and some of the struggles that a woman goes through that they just really had no idea existed. I love that. Let's put a big old pin in that. We're going to come back to that in real soon.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. So you've been featured in all kinds of cool publications, Parents, The Huffington Post, Cosmopolitan, The Independent, all kinds of legit, super amazing stuff. I just want to like pump you up there a little bit. Oh, thank you. And yeah, the book is called Not Tonight Honey. If you're interested in this stuff, definitely go and grab it.
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Okay, so this book, yeah, is mostly aimed at difficulties that women face. I don't want to say it's only for women. I do, yeah, I as a set dude have learned a lot reading it. But yeah, it is focused on women mostly in relationships. My podcast is mostly, I try to make it conversations to help men navigate modern dating. So in a way, we're kind of like on opposite ends of the sort of two by two matrix.
00:05:22
Speaker
but I do think there's a lot of awesome overlap here. I think it's so important for men and women to understand what dating is like, what relationships are like too, but what dating is like for the other side because I think we miss a lot of that context and I think that gets us in a lot of trouble and gets in the way of us actually connecting with each other.
Societal Pressures and Women's Sexuality
00:05:44
Speaker
So to kind of to set the stage, and there's no way to summarize this on a podcast, but to set the stage here, one of the big truths, one of the big things this book covers is women, and I'm going to get this a little bit wrong, but women experience, I would say, like a variety of forces, a variety of pressures that can lead to them not feeling in touch with their sexuality, their desires. And that's things like purity culture,
00:06:16
Speaker
media, I would say entertainment and advertising, and a whole bunch of stuff, whole bunch of stuff. I couldn't possibly list them all. And all of these things impact women, adult women every day, but also these things impact young girls starting way, way too early, like just to kind of set the stage with broad strokes.
00:06:41
Speaker
there anything in there? I want to hand the mic to you. Is there anything in there that is top of mind for you or something that you feel like is worth touching on for this audience or just anything that's kind of top of mind for you right now about those forces that women have to deal with that maybe make them feel not as in touch with their sexual desire? Yeah, I think one of the things that
00:07:04
Speaker
I would love for your listeners to understand, or just really anybody, is that one of the things that women really struggle with is this idea of prioritizing pleasure. And a lot of that comes from this belief that, and I did not come up with this theory, and I talk about it in the book,
00:07:23
Speaker
I can't remember, I think her name is Kate something, but she talks about this idea of human givers versus human beings. And this, where human beings are honestly predominantly men and women are the human givers. And so, so much of our life is spent looking pretty and being pleasant and being people pleasers and saying yes to things that we really don't want to and, you know, giving pleasure away and shrinking our bodies and fitting into this mold that we think the human,
00:07:52
Speaker
beings want us to be. And in that process, we lose ourselves, we disconnect from ourselves, and we don't believe that we are deserving of pleasure and goodness in all of these amazing
Empathy and Needs in Relationships
00:08:06
Speaker
things. And I think that that's one of the big takeaways I hope people realize, you know, whether it's whoever, whatever gender reads the book, that they are like, ah, I get it, why some women are feeling so disconnected from themselves and from their bodies and from their sexuality because
00:08:23
Speaker
this message is so pervasive as you addressed in different forms through purity culture and media and all of the things. I was just skimming that section before we hopped on and I was trying to find her name. Yeah, the human giver, human being dichotomy kind of blew my mind, right? Because I'm me.
00:08:45
Speaker
And in that kind of paradigm, I've never been, I mean, I think I'm, you know, my therapist could talk about this a bunch, but I'm probably a bit of a people pleaser in some ways, that's a whole different thing. But this like human giver, human being dichotomy, like I, it's hard for me to wrap my head around what it's like to be a human giver, right? Because it really is, as you describe it,
00:09:12
Speaker
I mean, I don't want to say dehumanizing, but kind of dehumanizing, like really prioritizing men. How would you go about helping me to understand how to empathize with a woman who is really feeling that human giver pressure, someone who's being told pleasure is not for you, it's for the guys. You know what I mean?
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the things I would do is really pay attention, especially in those early conversations. Like I'm trying to apply it to your audience, you know, so like, okay, we're talking about men and dating and how they can like increase their awareness of maybe women who find themselves in this human giver syndrome or human giver place and really paying attention to, you know,
00:10:03
Speaker
passivity, you are like, oh, it doesn't matter, like whatever you want. And, you know, I think that there's a difference between being easy going and not feeling like you have the right to advocate for your own needs. Yeah. Like that's, that's a big difference. And so really trying to help them to understand like, is this really what you want or is this what you feel like you think of that I want? And so you want to please me and therefore you're just saying this because
00:10:30
Speaker
that is what you've been taught you're supposed to
Communication and Intentions in Dating
00:10:33
Speaker
do. Like it's one of those weird, like, do I really like this? Or have I just been conditioned to like this? And how do I tell the difference? So I think that being aware, seeing how they advocate for their own pleasure, you know, whether that's inside the bedroom or outside the bedroom, you know, when you ask them questions of like, how do you like to be loved? How do you, how does it, how do you feel safe?
00:10:57
Speaker
You know, those questions, how they react to those, like nobody's ever asked me that before. OK, like that's a great sign to be like, it's interesting. Why is that like not a normal conversation that you've had with other people where your needs are being considered? Yeah. Wow. How OK. And I'm just segueing into our next kind of topic here for a guy who's dating, for a man who's dating,
00:11:27
Speaker
You know, it's inevitable. You are going to, because this impacts, I think it's fair to say most women, the people you're dating are experiencing this. They are feeling these pressures. There's a really, really good chance that that person you're going out on a first date with is someone who feels this pressure to be a human giver and not a human being.
00:11:49
Speaker
what do I do? Okay, so first of all, I just want to define why I think that's not the desirable state, which is maybe obvious, but I think it's worth digging in because for me as a guy,
00:12:02
Speaker
Well, maybe at first pass you would think, oh no, that's great because then someone is giving me pleasure. I like pleasure. A plus plus, let's do that. But of course that's not the case, right? That's not what you want because I think in a relationship you want to feel seen and understood and you want to see and understand your partner. The same way you want to see and understand your friends, but like romantic relationships, depending on what you're into and how you're wired, you know, can be a really, really important fulfilling relationship in your life, right?
00:12:32
Speaker
So I want the woman across the table from me to feel comfortable telling me what brings her pleasure. I want to understand how she experiences the universe and what makes her happy, and I want to know those things because I want to see her, right? Okay, so that's my thesis for why that human-giver-human-being split is bad. So then the question is, how do I
00:13:00
Speaker
What is a guy who's in the early days of dating or just out there trying to find connection? How do you? Is that something you can sort of account for? Or is that something that you should even have on your like dashboard in early dating? Or is this really something that you really can only get into later? You know what I mean? Yeah, I think there's elements of it that you can get into kind of early on. But you know, it's very much like an onion, even for myself, like when I dated
00:13:28
Speaker
Like I feel like I do a really good job of advocating for my needs, of prioritizing my pleasure, but I would be lying if I did not recognize how deep this, like I grew up in the church, especially the evangelical Christian church where it was very emphasized that women are helpmates. And so that is like the definition of the human giver. And so there's this part of me still, it's very, very, very, very small than what it used to be, but sometimes she
00:13:57
Speaker
gets pretty big of where I'm not serving. I'm not helping enough. I'm not being a good help mate. I'm elevating myself above my partner. And so yes, even somebody who's evolved and done the work, that can go really, really deep and affects how we show up. But I think one of the things that keeps coming to mind, I think of early dating conversations and what men can say in conversations is, I'm looking for an equal.
00:14:27
Speaker
I'm not looking for somebody to serve me. I'm not looking for somebody to control. I'm looking for somebody that is my equal. We respect each other. We love each other. We serve each other both out of love and respect. If you don't think that
Inner Child and Personal Growth
00:14:45
Speaker
you're able to do that and I don't think you can be an equal when you're a human giver. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that.
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. I guess kind of on that note, are there other things? So aiming at sort of the audience of men dealing with modern dating, is there like advice or guidance or like, is there something that you would say? Like if there's a youngish or I don't know, if there's any man in your life who you care about, who you want to succeed in this stuff, who you want to find connection, what wisdom would you give him or what would you hope for him to understand to help him kind of
00:15:26
Speaker
navigate, I would say, again, these forces that impact women that I think a lot of guys can be oblivious to. I think something to keep in mind, and this is not very sexy, so you're like, this is going to sound really weird. But when you are sitting across from someone, and obviously we're talking in heterosexual terms right now, is to really honor the little girl that's sitting across from you.
00:15:54
Speaker
Because really inside of all of us, I would say the same thing to a woman, really honor that little boy that's sitting across from you that just wants to be loved, that just wants to be valued, that wants to matter. And so that's really what we forget that, that we're dealing with the inner child of us and the wounded parts of us that have just been longing to be seen and valued. And really that's what ends up sabotaging so much of our relationships is when
00:16:24
Speaker
We don't honor those parts of us. We try to hide them. And it's not that I'm saying, you know, like, let your crazy fly, like, right away. Like, obviously, like, hopefully you get your shit together and you're not like, okay, like, these are all my problems. Like, love me anyways. But I think that that's something that, like, I, so I have three kids, my oldest two are girls and my youngest is a boy. And, you know, that's one thing that I want, that I will remind him is that when you go out with a woman or a girl, you know, whenever you start dating, like,
00:16:54
Speaker
try to honor that little girl inside of her because she is valuable and vulnerable and is looking a lot of times for validation that she didn't get somewhere. And so if you can keep that in mind and think about the baggage and the wounds that she has from those earlier experiences, that's gonna help kind of keep perspective of like, this is what I'm getting myself into.
00:17:23
Speaker
isn't it wild that like, so I've done a fair amount of like inner child work with my therapist. And I will say, when I first started talking about that stuff, when I first started understanding it, there was a big part of me that was like, okay, this is way too woo woo. I cannot imagine like, you know, a seven year old tiny me, you know, like that whole imaginative exercise was like, I think at first I was like, okay, I'll talk about this for half an hour and then we'll never do this again.
00:17:51
Speaker
But of course, that turned out to actually be very, very valuable for me. So that's really cool to hear you say that because that work for me has been very meaningful in my own growth. And yeah, that's a great reminder. Like everyone, you know, I think has that or everyone that that lens can be a really, really useful way for us to understand each other. I think that's really awesome. Right. Yeah. Well, OK, you've got such good answers for all of these.
00:18:22
Speaker
Before we pivot into, well, I don't know, what do you want to talk about? Is there more in here that is worth chewing on or do you want to pivot into your dating life? I'm up for whatever. I keep trying to think of how can I best serve your audience and what are some of the really great takeaways that I would, if I was a man dating,
00:18:46
Speaker
What are the things? Go ahead. Here's something maybe. So, okay, early dating, this happens. You match with somebody on the internet, things go pretty well, you're clicking, you're able to have a conversation, and there's that sort of question in the air. Maybe it's the first date if you're going really fast and there's lots of chemistry,
00:19:04
Speaker
Maybe it's a third date if you're a slow-burner,
Cultural Expectations in Dating
00:19:06
Speaker
whatever. I'm not judging the rate at which things get physical for anybody, but there's often that question, early-ish in dating, when do we start touching lips and other parts, right?
00:19:20
Speaker
And I know it's different for everybody, but I think a question that I think is often just sort of like a, I don't wanna say like a black box, but something that I often find myself questioning like, when is it appropriate or when is like, let me put it this way. I think in modern dating or Western culture probably,
00:19:44
Speaker
men are the sort of romantic initiators by default. And I don't love that. And I hope like in years in the future, that's not the case. But I think it's fair to say that that is often the case now. And so I find that it often falls to me to kind of make the decision about when we should start, like the first kiss, when things should start getting physical, at what rate they should start getting physical.
00:20:08
Speaker
something that I think is really interesting to me about this topic of all these forces that impact women and their sexual desire that I'm really kind of oblivious to because they really aren't aimed at me. For me, it's a really murky area because it's so much that I don't understand and yet me first initiating and making a proposal that's like, hey, I
00:20:33
Speaker
maybe we should touch faces now. However, I'm going to say that on that date. That is, of course, tied up with and touches all of those forces that are telling the very wonderful person who I'm trying to connect with. She's experiencing those forces that I'm not. I'm going about this a long way. Sorry. But you know what I mean? How can I possibly begin to account for those or how can I navigate those
00:21:01
Speaker
in a way that moves towards being healthy. And I do mean that like being respectful, I do wanna be respectful, making space for her, I do wanna do that. But really ultimately the reasons I wanna be respectful of her and the reasons I wanna accommodate those things is because those things are getting in the way of me actually connecting with this person. Does that make sense? So how do I do that? Yeah, I think so.
00:21:27
Speaker
I totally understand what you're saying because of that, because of all of that, like, uh, I don't want to say drama, but like that story that goes through a lot of men's heads. I know for me, I was very upfront when I was dating.
Expressing Romantic Intentions
00:21:41
Speaker
I would be like, Hey, look, like I want to kiss on the first date. Like I expect you to kiss me if you don't.
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm not going to kiss you. So I prefer to not wait like four hours before you finally kiss me. I'm a very physical person and so touching and hugging and kissing and those things help me feel connected to the person that I'm interested in. So I share that very upfront. If you do not have somebody like that, I think that's a fair question to ask.
00:22:12
Speaker
What are your thoughts on physical touch on the first date or kissing on the first date, right? If you say physical touch, they may think that that's like a euphemism for sex. And not that there's anything wrong with sex on the first date. I don't think that there's a hard and fast rule. My partner, when we had our first date, he had no plans on kissing me.
00:22:31
Speaker
And I was like, what? What? Like, I was like, appalled by this. He's like, well, I wanted, I wanted to just to have something to look forward to. And I was like, there's a whole lot we can look forward to. Kissing's not one of them. And so it was right, like he had the best of intentions. And I think that a big thing for me was that I, I want to feel safe in my relationships.
00:22:56
Speaker
And he saw that physical intimacy would maybe cause me to question the safety of our relationship, like if an accelerator, like if he went too fast and I would feel unsafe. And so we had a great discussion about that. And so I think even telling your partner that like, hey, I don't want to push you too, too quick, too fast.
00:23:18
Speaker
I want you to feel safe with me. I want you to feel respected by me. And I also want you to know that I really desire you and I really want to connect with you physically. Like, would it be okay if I kissed you? Would it? Oh, wow. I like that. I love that. I love that you are so, I mean, I think it's fair to say that you are in many ways exceptional with how in touch you are with your own.
00:23:46
Speaker
I mean, is that fair? In my experience, I have not encountered many women who are as articulate and as I would say courageous with expressing that because I mean, that does take a lot of courage. Women, there is the physical safety aspect of it as well. Right. A woman who is out at a bar. Right. Right. Yes. Yeah. So so I guess if I'm hearing you right, like finding like navigating my way
00:24:13
Speaker
I'm the guy on the date navigating my way to having that conversation, it's kind of the way to go. Do it with your words. Use your words is basically the upshot. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And I have been told that I'm uncommon in some respects because of that. They will ask me, they're like, are you Dutch because you're so direct and honest? And I'm like, no, I just don't play games. I just am very
00:24:37
Speaker
Like I know what I want. I know what I'm looking for. I know what I have to offer. So like I'm, this is, this is what I want. I, and if that's not what you want, that's okay. Like we're not going to take this personally most of the time. So yeah.
00:24:52
Speaker
I'm over here in LA. Are the Dutch particularly blunt people? I don't even know. Yes. They're very direct and very blunt and super nice. They're the Canadians of Europe, but they will just be like, tell you what they think and a very straight to the point. That's it. You're like, okay. You will know how they feel about you. I love that. I want a world.
00:25:22
Speaker
for me, but no, that's gonna happen. But for the next generation, I want a world where both men and women can find ways to express their desires and communicate and find where they fit, right? Because that's the goal, right? You wanna find somebody who you're gonna fit with, who's looking for what you're looking for because then you're both getting what you're looking for and you have the opportunity to dig deeper and see what grows there and do all that awesome, complicated stuff.
00:25:51
Speaker
And so much of that is tied up in, like I just said, the guy not feeling comfortable saying what he's supposed to say, either because he's obeying rules of purity culture or because he's afraid to be seen as like a predator or like a danger, right? Yeah. Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:21
Speaker
I guess it just takes a little bit of like, I don't wanna say like skill, but like, so I guess maybe it is fair to say skill. Like, is it fair to say it takes a little bit of skill to be somebody who when meeting someone for the first or second time, you can say, hey, listen, this is going great. I thought our conversation about the clown shoes was hilarious. And just to kind of say, I'm gonna get this totally wrong on the spot, but like, I like you. I think you're great. I'm feeling,
00:26:49
Speaker
attracted to you and I feel desire for you, I just want you to know that, would it be okay for me to kiss you? Like that kind of thing. And like probably being ready to hear no, right? Like being ready to hear someone say like, I have to pump the brakes, I'm not there yet, right? I think it's fair to say that takes a little bit of like courage and maybe skill because I think there's probably a lot of ways to do that wrong, right?
00:27:12
Speaker
I think,
Vulnerability and Honesty in Dating
00:27:13
Speaker
yeah, it depends really on what your intention is. The less confident and the more murky your intentions are, the worse the delivery is gonna be. But if you know, man, I really like this girl, and I want her to know that I'm serious about this, or I'm interested in getting to know her more, or whatever the intention is, be clear in that, and then communicate.
00:27:41
Speaker
what those intentions are. Like I've had guys who have just been very flat out like
00:27:46
Speaker
Wait, can I, I can't remember if I can swear on this. Can I swear on this? Okay, okay, okay. I've had guys flat out, just flat out be like, I just wanna fuck you. And I'm like, okay, appreciate the honesty. But I did, I appreciated the flat out, wasn't my style. I didn't like, that's not how you get in bed with me, but like, I was like, okay, sir, I see that you were direct to the point, he was also Dutch, direct to the point, like really?
00:28:15
Speaker
honest and he was prepared to hear no. And it's like, okay, cool, like whatever. But if you are looking to connect with someone, I really don't think that connect with the right person, meaning the right person for you. I don't think that you can necessarily say it wrong. It's really the energy that you're putting into it. And even just admitting like, I don't know how to say this. Like I really, I really like you. I really want you. And I,
00:28:44
Speaker
really don't want to make you uncomfortable. But gosh, I would love to kiss you right now. That's so sweet. You're just wrapping it up in honesty. And I don't know any woman unless she's not very kind and then I probably wouldn't like her anyways. But who would be like, ugh, why didn't you just kiss me? Why did you have to say all of that?
00:29:07
Speaker
you know what, then you're not for me. Because that's who I am. I'm a vulnerable, complicated, not articulate human that is going to mess things up. And if that is a turnoff for you, then let's end this now. Okay, cool. Thanks. You saved me a lot of time. Yeah. In a way, you're filtering out the people who aren't ready for that, who aren't going to accept you for the awkward, inarticulate, whatever you're bringing to the table. They're not your people.
00:29:36
Speaker
That's fair. That's fair. I kind of love that. Okay. Anything else about that that you want to chew on? No, I think it'll come. And if it doesn't just embrace the awkwardness, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I guess to kind of circle back as a reminder for guys, especially guys who are doing the work and trying to understand what it's like for women,
00:30:07
Speaker
maybe in a way for us, it's important for us to be as honest as we can be, as transparent as we can be, and kind of
00:30:18
Speaker
let her figure out or bring that to her and see what she can do with that as opposed to, you know, gosh, just such a guy thing because in my head as opposed to I was going to say as opposed to just understanding all of the context that she's dealing with and such a guy thing to do, right, to try to fix things.
Open Marriage and Non-Traditional Relationships
00:30:35
Speaker
There was a part of my brain that was like, OK, all I have to do is understand every societal pressure that she's experiencing. Once I have that, I can
00:30:42
Speaker
put it into this like matrix equation that I have, know where she is, and then I'll know when to kiss her. But no, I should just say, hey, I want to kiss you. Can we smooch? Yeah. Do it. Okay, that makes a ton of sense. Okay, so can we pivot into your dating experience? I think it's really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. You can ask me anything. You're so game. I love it. Thank you. So yeah, first off, can I give you the mic to sort of give context on where you are now with your dating and how you're doing that? Because I think that's very cool.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yes, so I have been married for 19 years and about a year and a half ago I asked my husband to open the marriage and so I realized that I was polyamorous and have been in an open-ish marriage since then and dated for a while and then found a partner in October of last year and
00:31:40
Speaker
decided to just have the two partners, and that's where I'm at. I think that's so cool. And I just want to open this up with congratulations. That takes, I'm sure, a lot of courage and a lot of skillful, emotional navigating, a lot of things that can be. Yeah. So that's awesome. Congratulations to both of you. I think that just speaks volumes about having never met you in person and not knowing your husband at all. I think that speaks volumes about where you guys are in the strength of your relationship. So that's amazing.
00:32:10
Speaker
Thank you. Um, but yeah, let's get into the duty stuff. Let's talk about data. Okay. Um, so, so you, so you mentioned last time at that, the recording that will never be heard, um, uh, dating younger men. Um, and I, I would love to hear all about that. I have this kind of like, okay, I have this half baked theory that, that there are, if there's four quadrants of like quote unquote young,
00:32:37
Speaker
men and women, whatever young means, and quote unquote, older men and women, whatever that means, I would put myself in older men. I'm 45 years old, so I would put myself over an older man. But I have this weird theory that because we live in a society where we value women for being young and we value men for being successful, you have a lot of
00:32:59
Speaker
those quote unquote younger women out in the dating market. And I think this is exacerbated by online stuff because it just throws us all in a database and like lets some algorithm question mark maybe, but just like lets the math like duke it out and figure out who wants to talk to who. But so you have a lot of
00:33:17
Speaker
quote unquote, young women getting, I think, a ton of attention on the internet from would-be suitors. And you have a lot of young men who struggle because they're maybe not able to come across as desirable. Again, because I think society tells men they're desirable when they're successful,
Dating Across Age Differences
00:33:41
Speaker
right? Among other things.
00:33:43
Speaker
And I think that leads to a lot of young men being very, very frustrated with modern dating. And there's a whole rabbit hole there of things that are bad. And then you have, you know, the older men and older women and the older men are often told that they are desirable because they have had more time to get further in their careers. And it's not everybody, but right. A lot of times we're told that men are attractive when they're driving a nice car, living in a nice place, that kind of stuff. And then
00:34:12
Speaker
I think to, again, not all, but a lot of older women, I think, we are horrible too. I think in a lot of Western cultures, we sort of make older women, older, again, quote, unquote, kind of invisible, right? And I think it's horrible and I want that to change, but I do kind of think that's some of the water that you swim in in the dating market, right?
00:34:40
Speaker
I think that, yes, that is the mentality that I had going into the dating market 100%. Tell me I'm wrong. I don't know. Tell me your experience. Yeah. Yeah. When I started on the app, I just did one app and I was 39 at the time and I literally was like, I remember, I will never forget this. My guy friend who was also non-monogamous told me about it and I was like,
00:35:07
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think anybody's going to like me. There's no way. There's just no way. And he was like, Courtney, I think you're going to be OK. And I was shocked. I was shocked by the amount of interest, but I was most shocked by the amount of interest in men in their 20s. I remember the first few conversations I had with some of them, I was like, you know how old I am, right? And they're like, yeah, that's why I clicked on you.
00:35:38
Speaker
They're like, I mean, not just your age, but like you're hot too. And I was like, what? Like it just, I was so, I know, like my mind was blown. That's very kind, thank you. But I was, my mind was so blown. Like I thought it was a fluke at first and then it just kept happening. And so then finally, at first I was like, I'm not interested. Like that, I don't find, I cannot do that. And then like the numbers just kind of started like getting lower.
00:36:05
Speaker
The thing for me was the amount of respect that the young men had for me. So the men in their 20s I found were way more respectful than men in predominantly in their 30s. They had such an admiration, like admiration is the best word that I can use for me of being a mom, being an entrepreneur, like being successful. And they saw me as
00:36:29
Speaker
beautiful. It still blows my mind sometimes. But because I grew up in such a society where younger is better, younger
00:36:41
Speaker
Fitter, fertile. Those are the women that you desire. Why are you desiring me? I got three kids. I have wrinkles. My body is far from perfect. And they're like, yes. Yes. All of those things. We love all of those things. And that just totally shifted something in how I saw myself and how I
00:37:03
Speaker
I don't even know how to explain it. It just was so fascinating to me. And so then I started to study men pretty much 10 plus years younger than me and loved it. I love that.
00:37:21
Speaker
That's so cool. Okay, so can I ask? What do you think drives that? Which I love. Is it because the younger generation is just being more respectful of other humans and they are seeing value in ways that defy those strict expectations I was talking about earlier? Or are you just lucky? Are you finding the really awesome young dudes, German? I mean, I did. I found some really great. My partner's amazing. He's 13 years younger than me. Awesome. But there's a couple of things. I think one, the
00:37:52
Speaker
The whole MILF porn thing, I would be remiss to not acknowledge that. A lot of young men are exposed to that in their adolescence. And there's this sense of, that's kind of weird, but also kind of hot, like this power dynamic and like, let me teach you and let me show you and let me guide you and a very nurturing, that is very erotic for some young men. And then they kind of get,
00:38:21
Speaker
kind of hooked on that. I think that there's also an element of just a natural attraction. Like if we really are honest with ourselves, like some people, you know, you're like, yeah, I really am attracted to, I have, I have girlfriends who are attracted to much older men than, than like our age, like in their late fifties. And to me, I'm like, I don't find men that attractive, but I'm on the opposite spectrum, right? I find men in their late twenties attractive. And so, but nobody really,
00:38:51
Speaker
gave us permission to talk about that or explore that attraction when we were growing up because it was like the whole point, you find somebody within your age bracket, whatever that is, because that's a suitable partner, a suitable mate, and then you marry, and then you grow old together and the end, that's it. This idea of being in a partnership with somebody because it fulfills your needs or desires or because you just really think they're hot. That's almost like a selfish, greedy,
00:39:20
Speaker
approach to relationships that nobody is telling anybody to be involved in. It's very much like society wants you to be in a partnership, procreate, stay monogamous, stay safe, and die together. So I think that there's an element of that as well. But yeah, I think that this generation is really like, they like ages, they're more, they're more
00:39:46
Speaker
willing to be attracted to the soul, the person, whether that comes in a male or female or non-binary body, and whether that body is 20 or 10 or two years older than them.
Challenges of Older Women Dating Younger Men
00:39:59
Speaker
That's awesome, and that gives me hope. I think that's really cool. Yeah. I don't know. Okay, so for any women out there who are... For any women out there who are
00:40:15
Speaker
trying to date younger men. Do you have advice or pointers or other pitfalls they should look out for? I mean, I think like, just embrace it. Like, girl, like, yes, okay. Like, just do it. I think that it really kind of depends on
00:40:33
Speaker
This is something that I have struggled too with in dating younger men. It's hard for me not to think long-term because, again, that's how I grew up. There is this relationship escalator. You meet, you fall in love, you get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you have a family, you're together. In non-monogamy, there is no relationship escalator per se. When I've dated younger men, it's like,
00:40:58
Speaker
where's this going? How do you want kids? Because a lot of my girlfriends, they're fixed. They've had tubals or they've done permanent procedures. They can't have any more kids or they don't want any more kids. Even if they're monogamous, if I'm dating this much younger man than me and I'm at a different phase of my life, is he going to give up that phase of his life to be a dad in the traditional sense?
00:41:28
Speaker
whatever just to be with me. And so that's kind of something to think about in the conversations to have is, I mean, date to have fun. That's great. Like you don't have to date to for long-term or for marriage or whatever. But I think that if you are dating for that and you find yourself like wanting to date younger men or attracted to younger men, that's a reality that you will have to face at some point.
00:41:55
Speaker
That's fun. Are there, were there any, I don't want to say like horror stories, but did you have any like, any funny twists of fate while you were, while you were doing that? Oh, twists of fate. I'm trying to think. I guess I mean horror stories, you know? Like really bad stories. Everyone has their like, you know, the thing that was like, wow, I learned that lesson, you know? Okay. Oh my gosh. This is really embarrassing. Um, like I dated somebody
00:42:21
Speaker
very young, like, I mean, like legal, like legal, okay, legal people. But I underestimated how young he looked in person. And I could try not to look at him. I couldn't look at him for most of the date because... And
00:42:40
Speaker
you know, later when we were doing things because I just kept thinking like, oh my gosh, she looks so young. And so that was like a horse. That was really embarrassing. So that was just like that was just a thing you were feeling the whole date because. Yes, I was like, yeah, I didn't care what anybody else thought about us. Like he looked better than me. And yeah, and that's one thing that I think is super cool. Like I don't none of the guys in their 20s who I've dated have been embarrassed to be seen with me.
00:43:10
Speaker
I'm always like, are you okay? And they're like, okay with what? I'm like, if people stare at us, they're like, why would they stare at us? I'm like, because I look older than you. And they're like, no, what are you talking about? And so I think it's cool that, again, that younger generation just gives less shits about what other people think. And they're like, I'm happy. You're happy. What does it matter what other people think? Whereas I feel like I'm from a generation where image was a very big thing.
00:43:39
Speaker
We don't share too much information, and we want people to think that our marriage is good, and we look happy, and everything's great. That's interesting. Just from our talks, I would say that I come from a similar upbringing, image-focused.
00:44:03
Speaker
I honestly, I probably would feel self-conscious if I was on a date with a woman. I mean, just being bluntly honest, I probably would feel self-conscious if I was on a date with a woman who looks 15 years or 13 years older than me. And in my dating experience, I've had women who were much younger than me.
00:44:30
Speaker
who wanted to date, who then would highlight the age. It would be a topic, it would be a thing that would be there in a negative way. For me, it ended up being something that's like, either this is something that she's into because
00:44:58
Speaker
I don't know. I would say it's something that got in the way of us
Age Gaps and Societal Expectations
00:45:02
Speaker
connecting. It was a topic that would keep coming up or something that would keep being highlighted. And out on that date, I began to feel like, I'm thinking of one woman in particular, but I would begin to feel like, okay, this person isn't comfortable dating me because I'm older. Even though she's here and she keeps wanting to go out again, it's something that's hanging over it. And I think
00:45:27
Speaker
I think maybe it's just the circles that I'm dating in or the cities that I'm in or whatever, but I feel like there are women who are willing to match with me and chat with me and go out on a first date who are much younger, and maybe it's just me. Maybe I just wasn't their cup of tea, but it didn't feel like they were ready to
00:45:57
Speaker
connect with someone who was much older. They wanted to match with and go out on a date with someone who was much older. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. I think that's the same with older women too. I definitely got the, I just want to fuck you. I have no interest in, I just want the MILF experience. Literally, that's what they would say. They're like, I just want to
00:46:19
Speaker
just fuck a milf. That's pretty much it. Again, I appreciate the honesty, but for me, that's not what I was interested in. There may be some older women who just want to bang a bunch of 20-year-old guys. That's totally fine. Good for them. That was not my focus, so I tended to not attract and date those kind of men. I think for me, the biggest
00:46:42
Speaker
issue like I think of some of the conversations and the really the only time that age other than my friends making fun of me about dating younger men is like the issue of when it came up in my conversation with the guy that I was dating was the fact that he didn't feel comfortable telling his parents or telling his friends about me because like
00:47:06
Speaker
You know, it's not, I mean, I think as a, as a mom, like if my son came home and was like, you know, he's 25 and he's like, Hey mom, I'm dating this like 40 year old. Like, I mean, also the fact that I married, like that's a whole other layer of it. But the fact that even if I wasn't married, I think that for a lot of men, there's that I'll date you and I'm sure shit will fuck you.
00:47:29
Speaker
But will I take that next step and talk about you to my friends or to my family? I don't know. And for me, I was like, hey, I'm not looking for casual. So if I'm going to be your dirty little secret, I'm not interested in that. And so I think that, again, that's something that older women have to take into consideration is, what's the confidence and comfort level of the 20-something-year-old? And is that important to you that the close people in his life know that you exist?
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, okay, so to take a hard zoom out here, that just touched on something that I would be interested to hear your take on. A lot of what is in your book, bringing it back to Not Tonight, Honey, everybody go buy it, a lot of these pressures that make women feel out of touch with their sexuality or their desire, how am I gonna say this?
00:48:26
Speaker
these guys not feeling comfortable talking to their people, their parents, their friends about dating an older woman or dating an older polyamorous woman, right? Presumably if they were dating somebody who was quote unquote age appropriate, whatever that means, or in a type of relationship that is quote unquote traditional, right? We might assume that those guys would have an easier time telling their people about it.
00:48:55
Speaker
I wonder if like, to me, I think I want a future society where we're so much more comfortable being okay with our loved ones having all different kinds of sexual desires and romantic ways to meet their romantic needs, right?
00:49:16
Speaker
And a lot of what you talk about for women is not necessarily purity culture, but the dirty little secret. When you said dirty little secret, that's what sparked this in my mind. What's going on where we're keeping so much of our romantic lives secret? Maybe there's a line between secret and personal. I would say about myself that I'm actually very
00:49:43
Speaker
a private person with my sexuality. I do like keeping my sexual life private. And for me, that's just, well, I'm sure a lot of that as a product of how I was raised, yada, yada, right? But I don't really know what I'm getting at here. But there's this tension between what any individual person genuinely might desire or crave or want to feel connected, to feel whole, to have those needs met. Not to feel whole, but to have those needs met, right?
Acceptance of Diverse Relationships
00:50:14
Speaker
And when that doesn't fit with what we see as sort of like the societal norm, there's a lot of damage gets done there. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. I think it was interesting because my partner was, he's Moroccan and so he comes from a very conservative background and he was out with a friend last night who's also Moroccan and
00:50:41
Speaker
this friend does not know I exist. So I kind of made a passive aggressive comment about that. But he said that he kind of like, he brought up the conversation of like, well, what do you think about polyamory? And my partner's monogamous. So it's
00:50:57
Speaker
It's interesting, but the guy was like, oh, I don't care. As long as it doesn't affect me. And he's like, well, how do you think it would be in Morocco? And he's like, oh, no, it would never fly in Morocco. And he's like, yeah, I don't think it's OK or whatever. And he's like, wait, you just said that if it didn't affect you, it wouldn't be a big deal. And the reason why I brought that up is because, to be honest, all the people that I've come out to in terms of being non-monogamous, nobody cares. They just are like, oh,
00:51:27
Speaker
Good for you. Okay, what else is going on in your life? As long as it's ethical and consensual, it amazes me how a lot of people really just do not care. Not saying that there aren't groups of people that do because there definitely are. I just have not had that experience. I had a friend recently come out to me and she and her husband are non-monogamous.
00:51:57
Speaker
huge, the fact that they shared that. I was like, I'm the only one here. No one around me is like me. That felt really good because they felt safe because I was honest with them that they were able to then months later be honest with me. I think that that's really how we start to de-stigmatize things is when we're honest with other people and we really don't care what they think.
00:52:25
Speaker
Yeah, like the ability to be honest with each other, to be seen as we are by, I mean, both are romantic partners, but I think in this case, we're talking about like our peers, right? Friends, family. I think when I was younger, and because I grew up in liberalish cities, right? I had friends and people who were all kinds of interesting, quote unquote, non-traditional, amazing people.
Pursuing Authentic Connections
00:52:50
Speaker
I think when I was younger, when I bumped into people who were polyamorous or non-monogamous, my initial impulse was to defend why I am monogamous. Even the proposal that because I am in many ways the quote-unquote norm or the traditional default or whatever, when someone just was near me and just
00:53:18
Speaker
showed me the possibility like, hey, you don't have to be that way. You could be a gay man, you could be a bi man, you could be polyamorous. I experienced like a tiny little klaxon going off in my head being like, wait, am I those things? I need to figure that out right now. But first I need to tell this person why it's okay that I am the way I am, right? And I think, and that's a very like, I mean, in a way silly, but like,
00:53:46
Speaker
I do think in a way for the cishet monogamous people, and especially in certain circles and certain cultures, you can go a really, really long time without anybody even questioning, even proposing to you the concept that the thing that you assume you are might not be what that is. And I think it happens all the time that people discover late in life that they are
00:54:17
Speaker
at any point later. You don't always come out when you're 12. I guess I don't know where I'm going with that, but it's a tricky thing and it's not clear to me that there's any sort of pathway to a better future except for just slowly, step by step, doing the work of meeting people who aren't like you and being okay with it and
00:54:46
Speaker
A, making it okay for people around you to be who they are, and B, being okay with being who you are. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's normal to question. That's something I know my husband did. He was like, wait, am I no monogamous? Do I want this? Do I want what she wants? Ultimately, no, he doesn't. That's okay. I think it's normal to question.
00:55:11
Speaker
I would encourage people to question and not just accept the default, but not necessarily feel defensive about it, to be like, I wonder, am I just accepting this because that's the story that I've been told that I'm supposed to, the fairy tale that I'm supposed to follow? And that's okay if it is. But if it's not, I want to feel like I have the permission and the courage to decide and to go after the things that do make me feel my most authentic self.
00:55:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I guess, I mean, we've been talking for a minute here to kind of circle it back to Not Tonight, Honey. I think that's a lot about what your practice, because you also do coaching for small groups and people and what the book's about is, right? Like finding ways to find and be your authentic self, which I think is really awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
00:56:09
Speaker
Yeah, as a dude, I do get a lot out of the book because I always say I think it's so valuable to understand what it's like for, especially in relationships, I think it's so valuable for dudes to understand what it's like for women and for women to understand what it's like for dudes. That's very hetero exclusive, but you know what I mean. Just to have compassion for the person and understand the pressures, I think sometimes
00:56:38
Speaker
I get frustrated at my partners for not understanding the pressures that I have as a woman, but then I also forget what it's like for them. I think we just need to give more grace to one another and to have more compassion and really be each other's champion and also ask for what we need as well. It's a very delicate balance.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:57:05
Speaker
Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed both of our conversations, even though one of them will never be heard. It's okay. And I'm so happy that you're out there doing what you're doing. Thank you. If anything ever pops up and you're like, oh, I want to go talk to that Scott weirdo about this, please let me know. Okay. I love these condos. And yeah, I'm always interested to talk to folks about this stuff because yeah, I think these conversations are important. I'm so happy there's experts like you out there writing books and
00:57:33
Speaker
providing support to people, but also I really enjoy just sort of being like an amateur and just trying to have the conversation because I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of dudes out there who like, I think on some level really want to, but don't really know how. So I appreciate you having this talk with me and kind of showing me how to have this talk. And I hope people got a lot out of this talk. Thank you. Me too. I loved it. Thanks, Scott.
00:57:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Well, yeah, I guess let's wrap it up there. Have a good night. Thank you. OK. Yeah, so that was my chat with Courtney Boyer. Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time twice to hop on a pod with me and have two great conversations, only one of which we got to bring to the audience here. Thank you, audience, for listening, for sticking with me.
00:58:27
Speaker
And yeah, I hope you really, really got something out of that conversation. Courtney's book is called Not Tonight Honey. You can get it wherever you get books. I'll put a link in the show notes. And a link to where you can find more information about Courtney and what she does.
00:58:49
Speaker
As always, you can find me on Instagram at wish you all the best pod. If you want to reach out via email, it's wish you all the best pod at gmail.com. Always interested to hear what you think. If you want to come on the show and if you have an opinion, if you think I'm right, if you think I'm wrong, anything you want to say. I like having these conversations, obviously.
00:59:13
Speaker
So yeah, thank you again to Courtney, and thank you again to all of you for listening. And yeah, I will catch you next time.