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Mia Lux & Love (Scott guest)
78 Plays2 years ago
What works and what sucks about dating tech? Should we all just go back to hanging out in bars? Will we one day all be matchmade by data harvesting AI matchmakers? Join Scott and Mia’s conversation about the impact technology has had on dating (for better or worse!) and what possible futures could emerge.
Brought to you by La Vette - an Intentional Dating platform for self-aware singles. Apply now and try it for free: https://portal.lavette.love/
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Transcript
Evolution of Technology in Dating
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to me, Lux and Love, brought to you by Levent, a members-only dating community for South Wales Singles. Today, we're going to explore the question of how does technology impact dating, all the way from when it started with like Match and eHarmony and the algorithms that were supposedly going to match us with our soulmates to the swiping apps like Tinder and Hinge and Bumble, all the way through to like, what's going to happen in the future? Will there be AI matchmakers?
Guest Introduction: Scott Simmons
00:00:25
Speaker
And my guest for this conversation is Scott Simmons, who has he's been on the podcast before. He's one of my favorite people to talk about dating with, because as well as being, you know, an intentional and conscious data and just like a total dating geek like me, his background is really in like technology.
Impact of Technology on Dating: Past, Present, Future
00:00:41
Speaker
He's like polymath introvert, who is really his work and his his sort of like intellectual disciplines have been that tech sector. So I hope you enjoy this exploration as we kind of explore how technology impacts dating and where it's going to go in the future.
00:00:55
Speaker
you
00:00:57
Speaker
Scott, welcome back to me, Alex, and love. Thanks for doing a little part two with me for the listeners to give a little context. Scott and I were WhatsApping back and forth. We're both very geeky about the science of dating and the science of love and how technology intersects. And we were sharing messages back and forth, like really reflecting on where technology is going and really the implications for dating. And so we thought in this podcast, we'll explore a little bit about,
00:01:26
Speaker
How has technology impacted dating in the past, in the present? Then go on a little tiki tour and imagine how could some of the developments happening now impact love in the
Early Internet Dating Experiences
00:01:38
Speaker
future. Welcome back, Scott. Thank you so much for having me back, Mia. It's always fun to chat with you about this stuff. It is. It really is. Let's start with a really big question.
00:01:47
Speaker
Which is, you know, we think of like technology impacting dating, really people think, well, it's tender, but I know it goes back a little bit earlier, right? So I'm curious, like, what are you, what is your earliest understanding of where like technology, like computers and start impacting dating?
00:02:08
Speaker
Wow, what a great question. I mean, for me, the first thing I really used on the internet for dating was like Oki Cupid, which is I think probably not, it probably goes back a bit further than that I think people were like,
00:02:24
Speaker
know, listeners who are old enough will remember like AOL instant messenger, like ways where you're just like connecting with like anyone on the internet to talk with them and connect with them like human to human using this, you know, weird thing called the internet. And I think you really can
00:02:42
Speaker
go back that far to say like, you know, any point the internet let someone connect to someone who they wouldn't normally bump into in their social circles, that's kind of the beginning of how the internet impacted dating, I would argue. I agree. I mean, and I think this goes to the heart of like how
Anonymity and Boldness in Online Dating
00:02:58
Speaker
human beings behave, how motivated we are around love and romance is that anyone who was single and whether it was like, yeah, I remember, I mean, gosh, when I was a teenager, we used IRC.
00:03:10
Speaker
And we used like, you know, all the MSN and like all the old school kind of messaging things. And like, I remember as a teenager,
00:03:18
Speaker
Even like people at our school, if there was a boy I had a crush on, you'd kind of try and connect with him on ICQ, IRC, or MSN. Like you try like connect virtually because there you could kind of like send messages that maybe you wouldn't be able to see in the real life. Back in those days, texts were 20 cents a text, right? So you weren't sending like blowing up their phone. And like, so even though those weren't dating
00:03:43
Speaker
technologies per se, I think you're 100% right, like human behavior and I want to connect and I want to meet somebody who's probably emerging all around the same time.
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think anyone who's old enough remembers being in a chat room and having someone type a slash S slash L, which is how old are you? What's your sex and what's your location? Which is just kind of saying like sex location ASL ASL. Yeah. Is there anybody here who I can flirt with who I can, you know, somehow feasibly connect with in real life? Like that was kind of the, it was a lot of flirting. Like I remember a lot of, and just like we used to call, um, I remember
00:04:19
Speaker
What was it?
Pros and Cons of Swiping Apps
00:04:20
Speaker
I think it was, yeah, it was IRC. We call it multiplayer notepad because there's no pictures. There was no like, there was no visual stimuli. Like it's just people like literally text chatting with each other. And, you know, it's funny because I think this goes towards like how did the current technologies, technologies get built. I think people started to feel a lot braver, like just being able to
00:04:42
Speaker
send a message and you could kind of like type something, press enter, then like hold your breath and see what happened, right? So I think it allowed people to be a little bolder than they ever were in person. So I think in those kinds of starting points with these sort of texting systems, I think people, like the kind of the modern dating where people are a little bit more bold or even reckless or let's say even cruel, I think kind of starts with that kind of anonymity and that kind of, in some ways, unaccountability actually.
00:05:12
Speaker
I think that's right. I mean, I honestly, oops, I honestly haven't thought about that quite in those terms. But yeah, I mean, the internet, one of the problems with the internet is sort of the lack of accountability. It's, you know,
00:05:27
Speaker
it is easy to be a worse version of yourself on the internet because your friends aren't there, your family isn't there, the people you love are there to sort of see you. And I think sometimes we do feel emboldened to do things we might not normally do. And I think I love the positive spin on that is that sometimes that means you might say something kind to someone or reach
Gamification and User Experience in Dating Apps
00:05:45
Speaker
out to someone in a way that you might not have the courage to do in a cafe or whatever. But sometimes it also does mean that, you know, you can,
00:05:56
Speaker
feed your, well, do the wrong thing, be cruel in ways that it doesn't take that many cruel people on the internet to really make it a dangerous place for a lot of people. Especially if they're loud and active. Let's spin that out. I'm thinking now, some of the most maybe painful, uncomfortable parts about dating before the internet were just how much risk was involved with asking somebody out.
00:06:25
Speaker
you know, like you would have to either go up to them and ask them out or you'd have to phone call them and ask them out. Like there was a kind of a real sense of exposure and like letting somebody know that they like you or you like them. And I mean, I remember, I mean, yeah, as a kid, but even older, like forever people have used friends to broker these
00:06:47
Speaker
relationships because people didn't want to like do it themselves so you kind of get your friend to sniff around and figure out like oh so what do you think about so and so right like we've been we've we've been trying to minimize this risk forever and so it's interesting because you think okay that if that risk of exposure the risk of rejection the risk of having feelings hurt has been such a painful part now imagine tender comes along
00:07:09
Speaker
where you're only going to be connected with people who have expressed some kind of interest in you. So I think let's kind of jump ahead to these like, oh, no, yeah, we can go back to Ehami, but like I do, like, what do you think, apart from just like the risk management, like, what do you think it was about these swipe match systems that just had them take off?
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. So for any listeners, I would recommend, I mean, obviously this podcast is amazing, me and Lux in Love. I would recommend another podcast that's out there right now that's doing something really interesting with this. The podcast is called Land of the Giants, which is mostly a technology podcast. But this season, this season is called Dating Games. And they're just digging in on like the internet technology of dating apps. And they really, they really answer that question in depth and directly. Like, what is it about basically the gamification of Tinder? And I really was Tinder.
00:07:59
Speaker
that sort of changed the landscape for dating.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I would say, to kind of summarize, I think, what those awesome journalists are saying, you know, when you gamify the app, when you make it really, really easy to use, when you make it sort of addictive to use, when you make it so that it's big candy colored buttons, crunchy sounds, make it really like a video game type of response system. You are making a system where people are encouraged to just do the swiping thing, like do this with your thumb as much as possible. And like, I think
00:08:36
Speaker
just what we were talking about before, where it is easier to reach out to someone online. It is easier to say, oh, I saw your picture. I think you're cute. Let's get a drink sometime. It almost, I think, makes it too easy. I think, to an extent, the fact that it costs me a little bit of risk, the fact that I'm showing you my level of interest by risking embarrassment a little bit, is, I think, a part of
00:09:02
Speaker
romance.
Impact of Swiping Systems on Connection Quality
00:09:03
Speaker
It's a part of pursuit. It's a part of signaling to someone, there's something about you that sparks something in me. And I need to express that to you in some way in that first moment, you know? And just doing this little swiping thing with your thumb, I think it doesn't do it, you know?
00:09:18
Speaker
And it has that feeling like everyone, anyone who's used those apps will know like, you know, when someone matches with you or swipes on you, that it doesn't really mean anything. You know, like, you're like, okay, they like looked at my picture for 2.7 seconds and went like, okay, like that's what that's, that's how much they like me.
00:09:35
Speaker
And so, you know, it doesn't create this feeling like I think maybe originally it was meant to create a feeling of like, oh, so I matched with someone who likes me, but it just doesn't feel that way anymore. Because I love what you're sharing, which is like there was this this high barrier to entry, which was like, first of all, you're right, like you'd have to make some risk. And you would only do that if you had made an assessment that there was a chance it would succeed.
00:09:57
Speaker
most of the people on Tinder are not like women and men are not really making an assessment of is there anything special here? Would this person want to hang out with me? They're just firing off as many possibilities into the ether. And so, you know, it's like, what the baseline of feeling like there was something special that could bloom or that like that that feeling that I think people are yearning for missing from dating, I think was devastated by that kind of
00:10:26
Speaker
the swiping functionality for sure. So people, I think people are, like most of the singles I speak to and they say that the magic has gone out dating, that's mostly what they mean.
00:10:36
Speaker
I think that's right. I think now that dating apps are more, it's more useful to see them as a subset of social media. I think it's more useful to see Tinder as a subset of Instagram than it is to see it as a technology that's trying to connect people. And honestly, this is a little tongue in cheek, but I kind of think Instagram is the best, quote unquote, best dating app out there.
00:11:01
Speaker
Because at least you know you know you have a pretty good chance of knowing if someone's actually married, right. Right. But like a peek into your life. It's a little harder like sliding into someone's DMS can be a little harder but
00:11:14
Speaker
Not much, honestly, I don't know. But I guess that's sort of a cheeky way to look at it. But I think dating apps now, the gamified dating apps, which is basically all of them, they're sort of designed to make you feel good when you match. When you look at the app on your phone, the number in the corner is the number of people who like you.
00:11:36
Speaker
It's not a number that says there's a person you're 99% compatible with, which I think OK Cupid tried doing, but I don't think that many people use Cupid anymore. But in the design, in the execution, in the financial incentives, I think these apps
Design and Behavioral Influence of Dating Apps
00:11:51
Speaker
are aimed at getting you to churn through people. They're really not looking at
00:11:57
Speaker
matching you with a person with whom you're going to have. I love the way you say a delicious connection. I also want to honor the pros of this too, because I think it can be like we're 10 years in or jaded and we're like, but I also think, you know, it sucked. It sucked being stuck in a dating pool of like 45 people.
00:12:22
Speaker
It sucked. We're like the only people you could date. We're like some friends of friends or maybe your colleagues. Like there was, I think people were stuck in their social groups for dating. And I think when you're young, maybe you go to college or whatever, like you have all this kind of social fluidity, people flowing in, flowing out. But if you get a little older, your late twenties, thirties, forties,
00:12:44
Speaker
You're not actually meeting that many new people anymore. And so the dating pool can seem really depressing. And then you go, okay, cool. But then you have these apps that aggregates all the single people.
00:12:57
Speaker
Now, all the single people, do you want to see all the single people? No, but you go, well, here's all the single people. So there's like, there's like, it's a blessing and a curse. It's like, here's 430,000 people. You saw through them. So maybe like, I'm curious what you think. What are some of the pros of these systems that have helped us apart from, you know, the obvious.
00:13:17
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think the obvious that you just said is kind of the big game changer, right? Like it lets you connect to people that are outside of your normal social networks. And you're absolutely right. That is a step in the right direction and something that we, you know, I
Evolving Dating Apps for Better Connections
00:13:30
Speaker
try to remember to be grateful for. Right. Um, yeah, like 40% of relationships now are as a result of like online matches, like to a degree, they are working. Like I want to honor the fact that like, even though there's a lot of bad stories, you know, there are like a lot of people do meet partners on them too.
00:13:48
Speaker
Yeah, and honestly that number is probably higher now that the info I've seen is that that was back in 2017 was before the pandemic, and it was on a sharp increase like it was really on its way up and that was before we all got stuck at home for two years with nothing to do but look at our phones.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think the way I see it is that I think we're going through an evolution. I think right now the companies have figured out how to make it very profitable to make these apps work. And it's not a government service. It's not a charity. Organizations need to figure out how to do this and turn a profit. It's a business, right? But I think they've really prioritized profit. And that has meant, I think,
00:14:35
Speaker
less priority on making it an awesome experience, really helping people connect to people they're going to be compatible with, right? So I think over time, we'll see more evolution. It's done like a casino. I think that's what always kind of strikes me about this. If you want to look at many different kind of
00:14:53
Speaker
I guess correlations between different other industries but there is this feeling I get on the apps where like both the way like you see the way it's designed the way it's upsold like it has this kind of gambling feeling to it and like they're like five singles have like your profile pay two dollars to find out who like it's like this constant like oh yeah like being stuck in a weird addictive ad loop and
00:15:20
Speaker
You know, it's like, even though I think it's great that there is abundance and it connects us, I feel like more and more as they've closed the kind of the profit net on people. I do feel like it started to undermine people's capacity to connect because let's say you have like a Jane and a John and they connect on an app. Ironically, because they connect there, they might actually undervalue that connection.
00:15:45
Speaker
versus if they had met at a party, for instance. I do think there's something about like the triviality or the, of this system now that has diluted how much emphasis or weight or just respect or dignity we give people. We meet on these systems that maybe they would have been a great match if they met in person, they could have chatted, but meeting on this platform, they came at it from this kind of like, you know, user A user B feeling, um, which had them miss each other completely.
00:16:15
Speaker
There's so much in there. Yeah, absolutely. So okay, so the technical term that I learned recently for this or the psychological term is a ludic loop. There's this thing in psychology. It's called a ludic loop. I think I'm saying that right. I don't know. You'll have to fact check me later. But there's this thing that we do and it's absolutely gambling. This is what casinos want you to do. Because when you pull the crank on a slot machine,
00:16:36
Speaker
It's not the winning that fires off the happy chemicals in your brain, it's the pulling of the lever. So you get the positive feedback even when you swipe, even when you feel the possibility of a match. Your brain gets the message that like, oh, we should do this more, we should do this more.
00:16:52
Speaker
Which means when you've got the person 8 person B matching, it's this weird catch 22 where I know that I met someone on hinge, but I know that because they're on there, they are probably just as addicted to this, to this system as I am pulling that lever. Yeah. And for me, like.
00:17:09
Speaker
Even if I'm like, okay, you know what, I'm ready to get off this like dating app, merry go round. This might be the person I'm going to, I want to have the convo with them and say, Hey, listen, I actually, you introduced me to this. Listen, I think you're really great. Um, let's just be sort of exclusive. Let's just be exclusive for like a month and check in in a month or two months. And let's just give this a shot. Let's give this room to breathe. Let's really water this to see what grows. If I'm feeling ready to have that conversation.
00:17:35
Speaker
There's always the fear in my mind that I know she's got another 1,000 people swiping on her and she's feeling that impulse to go back in there and swipe on that app because it is addictive. I know that she's feeling that because I feel that. And so it's kind of a catch-22 where like it is, it's just hard to get off that merry-go-round.
00:17:52
Speaker
turn. Ludic loop. And you know, it's, you know, it's like marry that with the other thing that casinos do, which is intermittent reinforcement, right? Where this is the most addictive thing. We're like, you don't, like, you don't want to win every time. That's actually not that addictive. You want to win randomly. Like you want to win once, then after five times and twice and three times. And so does the appster too. So you're swiping and you're periodically matching with people. And so you're, you're creating this like intermittent reinforcement. Like, it's interesting what you're saying about like,
00:18:21
Speaker
this, how difficult it can make to transition into, say, a more committed exploration. This is again, like, I think so many people are struggling with this, they're finding themselves, even if they're getting a lot of dates, even if they're dating great people, the difficulty from moving from that into something more, like more deep, more committed, for this exact reason of like, I do think the apps promote the psychology of
00:18:45
Speaker
It's about finding the right person. And there might be someone better around the corner. And there might be someone better around the corner. And it's really just about finding the right person. And if you just keep swiping, you'll find the right person. And maybe this one's good, but maybe she's better. Like that kind of treadmill, first of all, like just it's addictive, but it takes away, I think a really important dimension to love, which is that,
00:19:07
Speaker
big part of what makes a relationship work is a person's choice and commitment to that relationship, right?
Business Models and Financial Incentives in Dating Apps
00:19:13
Speaker
And when we're in this kind of model that it's not about showing up and making a relationship work, it's simply about finding the correct person.
00:19:23
Speaker
I think it dramatically undermines people's ability to come together and choose and commit to and create a relationship that works. Right. Yeah. And it's like, uh, and I wonder, like, would there be a way for the systems as they are? Like, I wonder if there was like any way that they could build, I guess with their profit model, they can't really build anything in like that because it'll just undermine how they make money. I'm like, huh.
00:19:49
Speaker
So, okay, from a business perspective, I think there's something to the matchmaker model, right? So this isn't for everybody because it's certainly not.
00:20:01
Speaker
affordable. I mean, it's not cheap. But if you can hire a matchmaker, and there are various price points for this, but usually what happens is you find a matchmaker and you sign a contract with them, and they say, for the next six months, I'm going to find you dates. And there's an upfront fee. You pay whatever the fee is upfront, and that matchmaker is going to work for you for six months, nine months, whatever the length of the contract is.
00:20:23
Speaker
From a business perspective, they want to find you someone amazing as quickly as possible. Because if they find you someone in month two, you're going to write back and say, actually, this lady is amazing. We're going to date for a while. We're going to give this a go. I'll reach out to you if I'm ready for another date. But right now, I think I found the right person. They want to do that as quickly as possible. They want to succeed for you because that's going to free up their time to do it some more.
00:20:48
Speaker
the apps are the other way. I don't think it's correct to say that the apps are engineered to keep you single, but they're certainly aimed at
00:20:59
Speaker
keeping users using the app, looking at ads, paying for boosts, that kind of thing. That's how they increase their profit margin. So as we're talking about, how does technology help us? How can technology solve this problem in a better way that is more humane for the people involved?
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know exactly what the business side of it looks like, but something where the platform is designed to have you find those high quality connections in the hopes that you find that person that you're looking for, like whatever model works to incentivize that, is I think the way to go.
Contextual Influence on Perception in Dating
00:21:47
Speaker
It's funny because like, cause it's hard, right? No, I know. It's like, how do you, how do you, like, you have to, you have to build that in. Like you have to be very clear about what model of love or matchmaking you're giving. Cause like, I think, you know, the tenders, the hinges, all like, they go, well, listen, like it's not up to us whether you guys get on or not. Like we're just here to put you in front of each other. Our job is to put you in the same room. What y'all do from here. Ain't none of my other business. Like, you know, they, they kind of say what's up to people to choose. And.
00:22:16
Speaker
you know, they kind of give that story to her, completely ignoring, of course, as if like their functionality doesn't somehow impact the psychology under how they're meeting, like, let's say you and I went to a party.
History and Limitations of Algorithmic Matchmaking
00:22:28
Speaker
And, you know, the way I introduce you to somebody is going to significantly prime how you perceive them, how you value them, right? If I say to you, Oh, my God, Scott, this is incredible woman.
00:22:39
Speaker
she's coming to the party tonight like you know i think you and her will really hit it off like you guys have a few key things in common i'm really excited for you to meet here you're already like oh okay cool and so when you meet her like how are you holding it versus like if i just randomly grab this woman and go hey uh
00:22:58
Speaker
This is Jane, fine, like leave you alone with her, right? It's like, I think there is like, you can't ignore the context in which people meet, especially romantically. But then we go, if we go to like the, both going to the past and the future, you know, with all the AI stuff going on right now, like the idea of algorithms, like matching people to your perfect match. I remember now, like it was, I think it was match and eHarmony.
00:23:19
Speaker
When they first started, their whole thing was like, oh, we've found, we're building an algorithm that's going to find you your soulmate. Like we're going to take all the legwork out.
00:23:30
Speaker
We are going to know what you want. You're going to tell us all these things. We're going to know who you want, and we're going to match you. Like you said, with the 85%, you have those little percentages of compatibility, right? I'm curious. I know my opinion about this, but let's go with the history of this. What is it about those systems that you think worked, didn't work? They didn't really stick around very long, so I'm curious what your thoughts are on those.
00:23:52
Speaker
That's a great question. I think, so I think, okay, Qubid, which is that that's the platform that I remember that did like the percentage thing, but I think there were a number of them did that, right? I think that was a good stab, right? Because like, you know, the question is, how do you get a computer to figure out if you're compatible with someone else?
00:24:14
Speaker
And I think when you frame the question that way, the answer is kind of obvious that like, that's very, very, very difficult. Human beings, we are intensely complicated creatures and like figuring out if two people are going to get along is, I mean, I just don't think that's a, that's a, maybe I'm not, I don't know. Maybe there are very, very smart people in tech who are like, actually we're solving that, but I'm skeptical.
00:24:34
Speaker
I think it's a tough, tough problem, right? So I think to a certain extent, it's correct that you want to just kind of get close and then get in the same room and just smell each other and look at each other and see how each other moves.
AI's Potential in Improving Matchmaking
00:24:46
Speaker
And your human brain and heart just kind of do the work from there. I do think we took a step backwards from OKCupid. I think that 200-question system to give some rough approximation of your values, I think there's some value in that.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I know you've heard of this platform called Levette, levette.love, where you have the opportunity to talk a little bit about sort of what your values are and what you're into and like what you're looking for, right? And I think the gamified apps don't really ask anyone, excuse me, don't really ask anyone to take the time to do that because their model is very much get people in as quickly as possible, get them in the card stack and get them swiping, right? For them, it is a numbers game.
00:25:33
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I think, I don't think, I don't think the question, the 200 question battery percentage thing was like exactly correct or, or infallible. Um, but I think I liked that better than the numbers game of, of swiping. I mean, my ex wife and I were in 99% match. Um, and we, we were wonderful for a while and she's a wonderful person and, you know, all that kind of good stuff. We didn't end up working out, but, um, and that, you know,
00:26:03
Speaker
That was the idea, maybe. But a high percentage match on that kind of system at least tells me that a lot of our values are in alignment. Well, this is what's really interesting about this. Because I think about this now with AI too. So we go, OK, wow. So maybe with the emergence of AI and its ability to just understand patterns at a more in-depth level, maybe we will be able to have AI matchmakers that are really effective. But what I keep looping on with my experience was that,
00:26:32
Speaker
I think what worked really well about those kinds of platforms and the questionnaires wasn't really actually how good the matchmaking necessarily was.
Complexity of Human Attraction and AI's Role
00:26:40
Speaker
It was that people had to go through a thoughtful, invested process and by spending time and energy on it, the way that they related to each other on that platform was different. We took it more seriously. The flaw I think is that like,
00:26:55
Speaker
what they were asking about was really just to the head and like in the vet were you like my co-founder she Lauren Zander she's a system called head heart and hoo-ha you know and the model is like those are three voices you use when you date your head is everything on paper your head is the thing that fills out the questionnaire yeah i want someone who xyz i want someone who goes to gym i want something like that i want something this tall like your head has like the description of what it thinks at once and what it thinks is important
00:27:21
Speaker
And that is a very important piece because if you don't get what the head needs in two years' time, it's going to be disaster. If you want kids and she doesn't want kids, that's going to be an issue in two years' time. You know, if you live in different cities, at first it's super romantic, nine months in you're exhausted.
Intentional Dating Platforms and User Involvement
00:27:35
Speaker
So there are certain, like there are things that are super important about that, but it's super hard to give a questionnaire on the heart or on the hoo-ha. You can in certain ways, but like so much of like
00:27:49
Speaker
you could meet someone you think is hot and not be attracted to them. You could be attracted to someone that you're like, oh, like you originally don't even think they're that hot, but then there's something about them. There are some things to human attraction that are just super hard to quantify. Maybe it's just our unresolved trauma. That's our attachment moodings, like whatever it is. But what I noticed is that people often say they want X, but they date Y.
00:28:16
Speaker
And so I think with a lot of the matching questionnaires, like I'm super curious about if there's a way like to take the best of it. I think the best of it is to be, is to give people a platform where they are able to be intentional.
00:28:29
Speaker
And it kind of primes them into a more kind of like, like a small slowed down and kind of invested pace to meet people. So you're not just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, next, next, next. Um, but one of the things I learned with LaVette, like we started with a crazy questionnaire too. Like we had, I had question here is about like, what is your relationship with your mother and your tech? Like, like really, really comprehensive, really like, like stupid comprehensive.
AI's Future Role in Meaningful Connections
00:28:54
Speaker
And now it's like eight questions a subject, right? And the reason why was we realized that as we started digging into like how helpful will this be? We realized that people largely want to choose their own people. They want to feel like the person that they meet
00:29:10
Speaker
didn't come to them necessarily from a raffle or from like an algorithm, but that they were in the right room, they were at the right party and then the right person appeared in front of them, right? There's still this kind of romance that we're looking for. So maybe we can kind of play it forward a little bit. I am curious what your thoughts are on like, whether it's AI or anything else, like how do you think technology could impact dating in the future?
00:29:37
Speaker
That's the $64 million question. That's a great question. I don't know. There's a lot going on in technology right now around artificial intelligence, machine learning, right? And a lot of the smart people who look at that stuff, who sort of raise ethical flags around it,
00:30:05
Speaker
will tell you that the people who design these systems don't know how they work. In fact, that's the whole point. The whole point of machine learning is that you make something that's super smart, you feed it a bunch of data, and it comes up with answers.
00:30:20
Speaker
the really, really smart people who make it work, they can't tell you how it made that decision, but you do it a whole bunch of times, you train it on a bunch of data and it gets better. It gets better at like identifying what in this picture is a cat. It gets better at identifying when this car should hit the brakes or when this car should turn left or when this car should accelerate to get out of danger. And I think maybe all this to say like, it's hard to, I mean, I don't know.
00:30:47
Speaker
I don't see AI or ML getting to the point where it can really talk to us about romance anytime soon. We're all super, super excited that chat GPT can write the owner's manual to a Datsun in iambic pentameter or whatever it's good at doing. All these predictive chat or these language models. And they're fun and they're cool to see them do funny stuff on the internet.
00:31:19
Speaker
I think the sexy allure of smart machines, I don't mean to be super skeptical about it, maybe I'll be wrong, but I just don't see them getting that really good anytime soon because the work that a matchmaker does, getting a machine to be a good matchmaker, right?
00:31:39
Speaker
The work that a human matchmaker does is just so gut level and like what we call chemistry and a little bit of spirituality and a little bit of theater, right? Like there's a little bit, like when you were saying that I want you to meet this girl at this party. By the way, Mia, I want to go to this party. I'm so excited to meet this woman. You're just like sold me on her, right? But like the work that a matchmaker does is not just finding two people and throwing them in the room together, but it's like also
00:32:07
Speaker
framing how they see each other from the get-go. As soon as you mention a friend to someone, the intonation in your voice, my human brain is so tuned to try and interpret what you're saying when you're looking me in the eyes and when your voice is doing whatever it's doing, like you my friend. My brain extrapolates and guesses and does all this crazy stuff.
00:32:29
Speaker
not crazy, complex stuff to put together an image of who this person is. And I think that has an impact on whether or not I might one day see a romantic possibility with
Privacy and Ethical Concerns in AI Matchmaking
00:32:38
Speaker
that person. And it's just like, even when you're making this person up as an example and talking about going to a party, the whole process of romance is so intensely complex. That's what I always end up coming back to with this stuff.
00:32:52
Speaker
And I don't see technology, and I work in tech, so I probably shouldn't be saying this, but I don't see tech rising to the challenge of doing that well anytime soon. But what if it did that? Because this is where it's really interesting. One of the big flaws with the matchmaking or these big long onboarding surveys that even matchmakers do is against your conscious mind that's answering it.
00:33:19
Speaker
But just hypothetically, imagine there was like the future, there was like an AI and you said, listen, I really want to meet somebody. I really do want someone who's a great fit for me. So I'm going to install this thing in my phone or my computer and I'm going to allow it to monitor me.
00:33:35
Speaker
Everything I do everything I click on everything I say for the next six months, and it's I am allowed to use that data to compile an understanding of who I really am based on my behavior and not just my conscious mind. And then whoever else is in this program, I can then, you know,
00:33:55
Speaker
knowing and then let's say it's programmed, let's say by good healthy human psychologists, please, to understand what a good match would look like. Like it has reference points around like a good healthy relationship needs these things.
00:34:12
Speaker
And then it was able to like match people like that. I like to like kind of play with the possibilities because that's, that would be creepy because listen, the stuff I get targeted with an ad, it's like, it blows me away how uncanny this stuff is. And you know, it's got more and more complex and more and more like precise over time. And so I do wonder like something that was seeing behind the scenes of how we behave. I do wonder how that would, it probably matches with people we don't think we want to be with.
00:34:41
Speaker
like, I'm not like that. Okay, so first and foremost, as an information security specialist, I have to say like the privacy implications of that approach are massive. You know, we've already we already trust Mark Zuckerberg with like quite a lot of information, you know, about us. And like, you know, I think in the beginning hinge was I think hinge was a part of Facebook, I can't remember, don't quote me on that.
00:35:06
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, there are, there are big, massive internet companies that have just like insane amounts of data on what you and I are into for advertising purposes. Shouldn't it maybe be possible to take that profile of a human being and be like, Hey, actually this person is also really into like the kind of TV shows that you watch on Amazon prime and the kind of ads that you click on on Instagram or whatever. Maybe you should, maybe you'd get along.
Role of Similarities and Differences in Relationship Success
00:35:29
Speaker
I, that's fascinating. I, I, I think maybe the only reason no one's really taken a swing at that is because it's probably not as profitable as getting people to play these gamified gambling dating apps. Like this would be something like this would be replacing human matchmakers. This would be like a big ticket.
00:35:49
Speaker
thing someone would do or a service you'd sign up for. You know what I mean? Like I can imagine being part of this like subscription service that, but you know, it's even more interesting as I go, gosh, like I think now like another piece of this is, I mean, just examining the presumption that the more things you have in common means you're going to have a better relationship is a very interesting assumption to, to question too, because as we know, like of course with similarities, but there's also
00:36:15
Speaker
things like having enough dynamic tension in a relationship and enough differences, right?
Future Trends in Digital Dating
00:36:20
Speaker
So I'm super curious to see like if, if, um, anybody takes it on my suspicion will be whoever takes it on first will make the mistake of like going for a very, very surface level compatibility versus really looking at the correct psychological research on what makes a relationship work or what brings people together and trying to build something that actually, um,
00:36:43
Speaker
facilitates that, but we'll see. At least this is recorded. So Scott, you and I can come back to this in like 10 years and be like, let's see. When our AI overlords are ruling us. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really exciting stuff. And that's like where advancements in human psychology and advancements in tech are going to one day overlap. I don't think we're there yet, obviously.
00:37:15
Speaker
What's like a two year prediction for the direction of dating? I'm curious. Like I know people are, there's like some people who are like in resistance to the systems that are like jumping off them. But I think obviously more millions of millions just onboarding. Like where do you think digital dating is going to go in the next two or three years? Two to three years. Um,
00:37:41
Speaker
I think, so I think we're in the wake of a pandemic. And I think the pandemic kind of applied pressure to a lot of relationships that, you know, in broad strokes, I think there are a lot of relationships that were tested by the pandemic and came out stronger. And I think there's a lot more single people out there because of the pandemic, like you found out.
00:37:59
Speaker
You put pressure on a relationship and you found out that was the right person for you. So I think we're still going to be sort of dealing with the aftermath of that for the next two, three years. And I think what that means is more people hopping on hinge.
00:38:14
Speaker
and Bumble and Tinder. I kind of think we're going to keep going the direction we're going for better and for worse because I think the trends that make, I think the pandemic made us all a little rusty at meeting people in the real world. I think the dating apps sort of incentivize us to look at our phones for connection as opposed to across the room.
00:38:40
Speaker
And I think it's going to take kind of a big thing for us to turn around on that and try and find ways to connect in a more human to human way.
Optimism for Alternative Dating Platforms
00:38:56
Speaker
Sadly, that's my prediction is we're going to have more of the same.
00:39:00
Speaker
Well, I, I hear you on that. I think, I think that is, I think you're right. I don't think people are going to go back from using technology to connect. It's just, it's too, like again, between like, ah, I can find people I would never meet in real life too. It's a little bit easier to start a conversation. Like there's just so many pros that would keep us in those systems, but let's see, I think, you know, Levitt, but I think there's a bunch of other systems too, who are developing and in response to, I think that
00:39:27
Speaker
real challenges and disappointments of apps. So I feel hopeful that maybe we'll keep going the same direction, but we'll take like a more positive kind of offshoot for some of us. That's why I love talking to you about this stuff because you have so much optimism about it. Thank you so much for jumping on and just kind of having this wonderful open-ended conversation. And if you are listening to this and you're curious about
00:39:50
Speaker
dating and technology, you know, make sure you check out the show notes below. And if you are single, come join us at LaVette. We are, like Scott mentioned, this is my company and we are building an alternative model, which is really video first. It's a, it's a members only community for singles who want quality human connection. So you're welcome to come check that out. Again, we have.
00:40:12
Speaker
You know what I will say? One thing about that I'll say as you're talking about LaVette, okay, next two years, I bet it's gonna be more video because something that LaVette does really well that I wanted to talk about is that your profile is you talking to a camera about what you value. It opens up with your three little words. I forget one minor, probably Dungeons, Dragons and something else. But you know, just seeing someone talk, even if it's on video, just seeing the way someone makes words, seeing the look in their eye as they're thinking of something, I think you learn so much more about someone
00:40:39
Speaker
doing that. And I think in social media, the trend is TikTok. TikTok is the platform that is like catapulting. Yeah. And I think, I think that's probably the direction. If I had to guess in two or three years, the apps will go more in the direction of video. And that's already there. It actually does excite me. Like what we learned with LaVant is that
00:40:58
Speaker
you know, as well as it just be more engaging and more interesting to watch people on video, which is why the social media is going that way. I think we're actually more generous to each other when we watch on a video. The people that we swipe past on a picture, we're more generous to on a video because someone who might just be like, oh, just like normal looking.
00:41:17
Speaker
can catch your eye in the word they choose, the way they smile, like the dynamism of seeing it, like you said, a person's actual movement or energy, and you just make a more accurate assessment. So I hear here to video, video first dating. Thanks so much for having this conversation. And I look forward to part three sometime in the future. I'm so down. I always enjoy these talks. Thank you so much.