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Lee-Michael & Scott - Heartstring Dating and Date With Us, shameless plug
70 Plays1 year ago
My guest this episode is Lee-Michael Pronko, a single dad with several online dating start-ups! I like his approach and views on dating, and I think his businesses are aimed at helping to make modern dating work for people who are actually looking to connect with other human beings, working to find that special someone. He emphasizes the power of video in dating apps but his passion and approach for helping people navigate modern dating are what really caught my attention. Check out his stuff!
And if you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you - @wishyouallthebestpod.
Music: "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:22
Speaker
And welcome back to Wish You All the Best, a personal podcast about modern dating. I am your host, Scott Simmons. Welcome back, welcome back. I'm experimenting with putting some music at the top of these. I guess we'll see how that goes. That might not stay, but I don't know. I'm just trying to have fun with it.
00:00:46
Speaker
I guess let me know. Leave a review. Leave a five-star review if you think it's awesome and also leave a five-star review if you think it's terrible. Tell me in the comments if you like it.
Guest Introduction: Lee Michael Pranko
00:00:58
Speaker
This episode, my guest is a man named Lee Michael Pranko. I've been following Lee Michael for a little while. He's working on some really cool stuff. This episode is basically a shameless plug for all the cool stuff he's doing. I might as well just say that up front. I'm not a paid promoter. I'm just a big fan of what he's doing. I think he's grappling with the reality of dating apps in a really smart way. And I think his focus is a very empathic, smart,
00:01:25
Speaker
relationship focused way to use the apps.
The Role of Video in Dating Apps
00:01:29
Speaker
He's really trying to figure out how does someone stand out in the apps? How does someone really give someone else a feel for who they are on a dating app? One of my big complaints about dating apps has always been that I just think it's nearly impossible to give someone a real feel for who you are.
00:01:45
Speaker
with four pictures and some pros. And I think his approach is really video focused. I think video is a really smart way to give someone a feel for who you are, and he makes it easy to do that. You'll hear us talk about it in the episode, but his services are called Date With Us. Heartstring dating is his app.
00:02:08
Speaker
and pitch your friend but you'll hear us talk about that in the episode and I'll put links in the show notes. The last thing I'll say is we did have a sort of a technical glitch halfway through the episode so you'll hear us kind of cut out for a moment had to pause the recording and kind of try and
00:02:23
Speaker
deal with a thing. But hopefully, that's not too disruptive. But so that's not your podcast player freaking out that's us having a technical issue. Yeah. And with that, I hope you enjoy this episode of Wish You All the Best. Thanks for listening.
00:02:44
Speaker
Okay, awesome.
Dating Services and Apps by Lee
00:02:46
Speaker
Lee Michael, welcome to wish you all the best. I'm excited to have you on here. How you doing, man? Thanks, brother. Stoked that we could finally make this happen. This is our like third attempt. I'm doing great. So here we are. Okay, awesome.
00:03:00
Speaker
Okay, so I think I have some deeper, bigger, meta, existential, what does dating mean kind of questions. But at the top here, I really want to give you the opportunity to plug your businesses. I'm really excited about what you're doing, but you're going to be able to speak to it better than I could. So can I just give you the mic to start off?
00:03:19
Speaker
Sure, man. But I mean, you know, because you already went through one of those services, which I love that. So I'm sending you over those reels this week as well. So look, out the gate, it's really simple. I built a video dating app. The whole purpose of my video dating app is to empower people to showcase themselves in different ways. I don't think photos or text do justice to really showcase someone's personality. I understand that people have multiple ways to be creative. But I think in this day and age and what we're restricted with in terms of this like simple tiny phone here or complex phone,
00:03:49
Speaker
videos the best chance to stand out online period. Plus, it helps you build some confidence, communicate about yourself more effectively. So for me, Heartstring is our dating app. And then on the other side, I decided that I think it would be a great opportunity to support people who may not want to use
00:04:06
Speaker
My app per se, or not aware of it yet, but they could take some reels to put in their dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, any other dating app that supports videos. So like, you know, you went through the Date With Us, you know, video Q&A, right? I asked you 20 questions, took 10 minutes or less, and now I'm gonna return to you three videos that are cut in an interesting way, right? They're 30 seconds long, and they just showcase a PCU. And part of the cool part of that, which a lot of people go, you know, when I talk to people about it, they ask me,
00:04:34
Speaker
Like, oh, well, I can just create reels. And I'm like, of course you can. But the best part about this is like, you get a chance to talk with me. There's certain elements of what make me me that help draw out elements of who you are. Right. And that's what I love about this is having those conversations and seeing people smile a different way, how they respond to certain things. So yeah, those are kind of the two, the two services that I've just been building out. And again, the whole core theme of authenticity and video as the greatest tool that we have to stand out online.
00:05:02
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. It's date with us, right? Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, stay with us. Also, are you still doing that thing? I don't want to say premium, but there's a thing you do where you and your business partner will meet somebody, actually get there, do the whole nine yards, really walk somebody through it, like a matchmaker level of service.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, so there's that too, right? With Day With Us, we offer an immersion. And essentially what we do is, Sarah and I, my business partner, she's a dating coach, we'll come down to where the date is located. So could be anywhere in the world, honestly. And we partner up with a matchmaker as well in that area. We set up a blind date. We give coaching feedback. We do virtual dates, give coaching feedback. We do a whole profile makeover. So we do three photos and three video reels, but a day in the lifestyle. So it's embedded.
00:05:54
Speaker
you know, if you're, if you're going to the gym, or if you're a favorite coffee shop, or you're with your friends, we want to showcase you in your life world. And I think that's a huge part to where we're restricted at online
The Value and Cost of Matchmaking
00:06:05
Speaker
dating now. And when you have that expertise of bringing, you know, our video skills, combining that with matchmaking, so you actually go on some dates and get some feedback from people that know what they're doing and and practice dating, right? Dating is a skill set. It's a it's a hard thing. And, and yeah, so we're that we're kind of that's the Sarah would call it like the
00:06:24
Speaker
What is it? She says the creme de la creme of the dating experience. I just think it's really neat to combine this idea of matchmaking, coaching, and videography to support people.
00:06:39
Speaker
It's like everyone's trying all these different things and I'm like, well, why don't we just leverage all those things in a way that can really support someone? From my experience, man, from what I've been doing, from people I've been talking to, one of the reasons I'm so excited to talk to you, I think it's a really smart way to go. I want to be clear, this kind of thing is not in everybody's price range. I get that. I'm not trying to say everybody, hey, why aren't you spending a few thousand dollars making your dating life better? There's just a reality that some people can't foot that bill.
00:07:05
Speaker
But I think if somebody is at a point in life where they're prioritizing finding a partner and they're really considering using a matchmaker, your approach is a really, really, really smart one, right? Because like a lot of matchmakers I've talked to and that I've used will tell you, you know, stay on the apps, keep using the apps, and I'll even help you walk you through using the apps. But you're really kind of, I don't want to say like hybridizing it, but like I think just grappling with the reality that
00:07:29
Speaker
dating apps are how people meet, uh, potential romantic partners these days. And I think that's a really smart way to do that. Um, and I, I, I'm like, I, I don't know. I'm not, you're not, I'm not getting paid for any of this. This is just, I've looked at it and I like it. Um, appreciate it.
00:07:45
Speaker
Well, I think the other thing to it too, though, is like, I really want to bring value to people by giving them something tangible. And that's both an experience. So having myself, Sarah and a matchmaker come and spend 48 hours with them and day in the life, I think that's a really unique opportunity, which a lot of people will never get that chance, right? Because matchmaking is quite expensive. It may be out of someone's price range. I'm not saying this isn't not expensive. What I am saying is there's a lot of value to
00:08:11
Speaker
be with the people that are there to support you on a personal level. And then the other value add is by getting things like a dating profile makeover, not just photos, but actual reels that support you and empowering you to take those away as well to whatever dating apps you're using. That's like something tangible you take and you learn and grow from that experience, right? And so for me, it's not just having someone sit in a matchmaking database or having someone buy another premium level of a dating app or
00:08:38
Speaker
purchase some coaching. It's really a collection of those things. And I'm just trying to look at it as someone who I myself have my own challenges in online dating, even though I built a dating app. And I'm like, what would I leverage? I built Heartstring because I'm a single dad. I don't want to waste time and energy and money on people that I don't fly with. So what am I going to do? I built a video dating app.
00:09:00
Speaker
Okay, now, you know what? Personally, our matchmaker partners, they're like, Lee, do you want to do matchmaking? I'm like, fuck it, let's do it. I'm like, why not? It's like, I believe that there are people that have the skillset to find like, hey, you'd be a good match for this person and so on. And so I'm just like, listen, let's combine this and make something unique that nobody's doing and make it personal. That's the one thing I found in dating across this industry
00:09:23
Speaker
with all the new apps, with everybody, a lot of this is very impersonal. It's like, you know, when you sign up for a lot of matchmakers, again, no judgment, but like, you just feel like you're sitting in a database or you buy it, you buy the next tier on one of the dating apps. And it's like, it just feels very impersonal to me. And I'm trying to bring back that human, that personal piece that we're here. This is like, we're a consultancy. We're here to support you.
00:09:46
Speaker
dating's love, finding love in relationships is literally probably the number one thing in somebody's life. If you think about it at the end of the day, like, yes, got a job, get food. I understand. Feel good. Feel well. Get healthy. But like the end of the day, we're all looking for someone. We don't want to be alone. So I think for a lot of people, yeah, picking that romantic partner is like the most important decision that impacts your life fulfillment. You know, not for everybody, but I think for a lot of people, certainly for myself, it is a big important issue that I'm trying to take really, really seriously.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I totally hear you, I resonate with what you're saying about like, here you are making a dating app, here you are like a specialist in it, but that's coming from a place of like, this is hard. I had a very dear friend, I was talking to her yesterday and we were talking about dating and stuff and she was like, you know, and she's being very, very sweet and I'm kind of humble bragging here a little bit, but she's being very, very sweet and she's like, Scott, if this is difficult for you,
00:10:38
Speaker
like how is there hope for any of us because I put all this time and effort into it and I really try to like have my ducks in a row and do the things and like bring my best self. But I think that's kind of a part of the point of my podcast or a part of what made me want to start making this kind of content is that like I do get that a lot. I get people saying like, you know, like how are you single question, right? Which everybody means very well. Like everyone who says that is well-meaning. But I think folks kind of don't
00:11:06
Speaker
I think a lot of people don't appreciate just like how weird it is, how much it's changed maybe in the last five, 10 years with the apps or with the pandemic.
Critique of Modern Dating Apps
00:11:15
Speaker
It's hard. It's really tough. And yeah, these apps are, I think the apps are really aimed at
00:11:23
Speaker
I think the apps that have survived, the apps that are thriving are the ones that are very good at making money. They're the ones that are commercially successful, which does not mean that they are good at helping you find what you're looking for. Anyway, to come back to it or to bring it back together, I really like the approach for video. I like the approach for what you're doing. People say this a lot, but I think the apps are kind of a
00:11:46
Speaker
you know, a necessary evil in navigating the apps as best as you can to give someone a feel for who you are, is really, really smart strategy. So yeah, anyway, all that to say, I love what you're doing. Thanks, brother, I appreciate that. I mean, look, we've chatted a lot about this. And I think just going down that hole a bit about the apps, I think number one is a mindset thing about dating. Look, the best thing we can do is first focus, like change our mindset and how we approach apps, because you understand apps are a resource, they're there, right? And when I hear people either are, you know,
00:12:16
Speaker
I don't use apps. And I'm like, listen, I get it. But at the same time, the majority of us are likely using dating apps. And so how can we use it in a way that is perhaps effective for us and what we're looking for? Everybody has different requirements and different things that they're looking for. But in my case, I do feel that what I've been given in my experience on the apps in terms of my experience is that they're just not conducive for me really showcasing me. And I'll give you the perfect example.
00:12:42
Speaker
When I matched with someone previously on, let's say, Bumble or Hinge, the first thing that I do is I send a video on Bumble right out the gate and it always works because they're seeing me and I'm just like, hey, it's me. I'm not a scammer. This is my body language, my tone of voice, etc. Super quick question here. We had the same issue, Scott, about that quota exceeded, but I think we just keep rolling with it. Can we just roll with it?
00:13:10
Speaker
Dude, do we have to do to afford them? We fucking do it. But in any case, that's a classic example where I feel that using a video is what helped me stand out. And at the same time, the way that you describe how dating apps, a lot of them are focused, they're good at making money. Of course, that's what existed for the last 10 years, the same model. But if you look and we see the trend in dating apps, there's kind of two things happening right now, which is that
00:13:36
Speaker
Either people are creating copies of the same model, which is the swipe model because it's been the most psychologically effective because people, it's easy. You just pull out your phone, swipe type, swipe, and you're done, right? And I always think about it as a funny kind of joke, but it's not that funny. If you go on a date with someone that you did that with, it's like, how did you, how did you like meet, meet me? Like, what did you like about me? And probably the first thing that you did was you just, I'm not saying not everybody does this, but it's like, you just swiped a bunch because statistically men try to increase their odds on dating apps.
00:14:06
Speaker
by getting to reach as much people as possible right you can change your approach and having an intentional approach is obviously a good approach but i'm just it's something that i think about a lot of like that's what the swipe model does all these dating apps are coming out with different versions of the same model then on the other hand we have we have this new trend emerging of like
00:14:25
Speaker
AI is going to save and match us all, right? I don't think that's the case whatsoever. I don't think it's possible to capture the chemistry piece and the vibe of somebody, because I also don't think people are dating in the way that's probably effective for them. And here's one example. Let's just say I swipe on a bunch of people, probably like 90% of the people do on dating apps, swipe, swipe, swipe, you know, they're attractive, they're attractive. Doesn't mean we're compatible in any way. And even if you're intentional,
00:14:55
Speaker
and you go, okay, look, I'm looking for someone with all these requirements. There is no possible way that some kind of AI will be able to determine that I'm the most likely compatible with this. I don't see it and even Hinge recommends it now. It's not that advanced, but the truth is you're missing so many nuances.
00:15:13
Speaker
You can't trust that a data is going to be like, here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I need. I'm not saying we can't trust people. But what I am saying is that the way that we date within these apps probably won't give the best reflection of who we are and what we're looking for. So no AI could be like, this is a good match for you. That's all I'm saying. There's a human piece to it that escapes any kind of
00:15:32
Speaker
any kind of machine learning possibility. And so I just think it's another band-aid on this further flashy thing that everybody's going towards in the industry. And I'm like, can we just stop for a second, get back to the human? And for me, that way is literally reducing all this
00:15:49
Speaker
Noise and complexity that i think the industry is creating unnecessarily like adding more games in the app adding watching tv shows together i think that's fun if you live across the world and you wanna meet someone that lives in another country and fine but i what i do think is people want in person they wanna see and i wanna go how can i get to the in person with this as soon as possible cuz i'm already tired i'm already exhausted.
00:16:12
Speaker
So I'm like, let's stop, let's use short videos and let's create more in-person events. That's what I think people want. I personally think people want to get in person to an event where they can socialize and they can feel it's somebody's vibe. So anyone that's working on creating kind of like a focus on getting to the in-person in the least amount of friction way, that's what I think is going to win. Not anything flashy with AI or any, any, anything else like that. Period. Yeah. I mean, look, I hope you're right. I, I,
00:16:42
Speaker
I mean, just to kind of dig into the dating apps, the whole thing a little more. Like, win.
00:16:47
Speaker
Win is an interesting concept with the dating apps, right? Because I feel like we've had dating apps that did a better job of prioritizing actually matching people based on their values, based on various principles, right? I would argue actually that OKCupid 10 years ago did a pretty decent job. It took a lot of work to make a profile, and it was all text. So you had to kind of be a good writer or at least somebody who liked the questions. And it took a lot of work to create a profile for yourself, a lot of work, right?
00:17:15
Speaker
but I think that yielded a better system for matching with people who you might actually get along with. Talking about what's going to win in the dating app scene or on that marketplace, the gamified apps, the ones that make it very, very easy and the ones that give you those little dopamine hits of like, oh, you got a match.
00:17:35
Speaker
those are the ones that are going to do well because doing well means, I think, getting dudes to pay money for the extra premium super likes. That's true. They're winning now, but what I'm saying is I think there's a shift in. Look, any data I talk with, they're going to tell me a couple of things, and it's always the same. They're tired of swiping. They're tired of using the apps. They want in-person events. People are craving interesting in-person experiences, period, everyone I talk with. I'm thinking to myself, and actually at the same time,
00:18:04
Speaker
the core values of our society are changing. People want more fluid, different types of relationships. People are interested in exploring more kinks, more different things. And there are apps that are catering for that, right? And so what I think is that people are realizing the gamified approach that they've experienced in the swipe-based model over the last five years or so.
00:18:26
Speaker
Um, that's not what they're looking for anymore. They're, they're, they're dialing in a little bit more to be intentional. They don't want to waste their time and they want to go to in-person events. And so I'm just thinking to myself, how can we do that in a much more simpler way? And that's why I think these apps are, I personally think the culture as the culture changes, these apps are feeling the pressure to try to find more ways to make it flashy and interesting. But the truth is, I think.
00:18:49
Speaker
It's actually about reducing things and getting back again. Look at Great Expectations, the video dating app company from the 80s and 90s and 70s. They made videos. You literally walked into a studio, recorded yourself asking a couple of questions. Literally what I'm doing with Day With Us, okay? And yeah, they disappeared because
00:19:08
Speaker
online dating appeared on the web and then it moved into an app form. But the truth is, I think we're coming full circle again. Everybody can make videos for themselves. We do it on TikTok and Instagram all the time. Why aren't we doing it in a place where literally you're probably swiping on tons of people that you actually would match with if you heard their voice in their body language.
The Importance of Personal Interaction
00:19:29
Speaker
That's my take on it. I hope you're right, Ann. I really do because I do think it's better. I don't think
00:19:34
Speaker
I don't think the internet, I don't think we're going to be able to get away from the internet as a medium for meeting people, for dating. I don't think we are. I don't think we should either. I think we just need to leverage it in a way that's conducive to helping us make a triage of people, an assessment of going, hey, you know what? This is the most likely chance that I'm probably going to connect with this person because I can see their vibe, their personality, their body language, their friends.
00:20:02
Speaker
And then, okay, I do want to go on a date. I don't think apps that, you know, there's a lot of nuance coming on. I always laugh, right? Because I'm like, what is the problem that this new dating app is solving? And it's just like they add these little icing things that aren't solving problems. And one of them is example, booking dates for you. I do think it's
00:20:19
Speaker
It's a fun idea. Yeah, I'm a busy person. Book the date for me. But the truth is, if I want to see you, I'm going to go, hey, you know what? I'll see you Thursday night. Oh, it doesn't work? All right. Let's make it happen on Sunday. I don't need an app to do that. We have calendar. We have every other form of booking something. I don't want an app to do that for me. It's annoying. Yeah.
00:20:41
Speaker
I mean, would you want an app that books dates for you? Like, I just don't think no, I don't think it's effective. Because if you really want to see someone and you're into them, you're both going to be like, you know what, we'll find the time. Are there I would be curious to know how many women are on that app, because in my experience, one of the things that women
00:20:58
Speaker
And this might just be the kind of person that I'm pursuing on the app, so I don't know. But in my experience, women really like it when you show the effort of being like, hey, I made a reservation at this place, and they can be fun to go try this. And we can maybe go for a walk on the beach and then hit this place for tapas in a cocktail or whatever. They like you proposing something, because it shows that you put in whatever it was, like half an hour on Yelp trying to find something cool to do.
00:21:21
Speaker
You know what I mean? I mean, no, I can tell you 100% certain that is absolutely the case. And that would be the right thing to do every single time when you're booking a date. But I don't need an app to set up dates for me and ask you, when are you free? Here's my calendar. My calendar is so dynamic, it changes every week. I can't plug into it. I know that firsthand.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Right. And I'm not plugging into an app like my dates. Like that's just like bullshit. It's like, I literally will work with that person to make time as needed. Or again, if it's a first day, it'll be like, Hey, Thursday night, 7pm. See you at this restaurant. It's like, yeah, thank you.
00:21:57
Speaker
I just think apps that are coming out and creating these different twists, they're not really focusing on what is the problem to be solved. And the number one problem to be solved for me period is that there is a low resolution view of every single person dating online right now, unless you're using video. So show me how that's done and how do we solve that.
00:22:19
Speaker
Let's dig into that, and this is where I'm talking deeper. When I first started making content, my big thing was delete the apps. I remember that. I was ironically saying it, but I think there's just a fundamental problem where basically digital marketing has become a non-optional skill set for single people. You have to be able to make an ad for yourself in whatever medium is available to you.
00:22:47
Speaker
In LA, what I've been noticing is, for whatever reason, Tinder is monstrous. Tinder is just the place where I get the most traction, and it's where people are. People are looking for long-term monogamous, traditional, super, quote, unquote, conservative, whatever, on Tinder, which in other places, I think Tinder has a reputation for being more of a
00:23:09
Speaker
casual hookup, whatever kind of thing. But whatever, it doesn't matter. For whatever medium that you are, for whatever dating app you are getting into, your ability to market yourself is a critical skill for your ability to get a date. I think especially for men, although I would be interested, let's put a pin in that because men and women doing online digital marketing, I think is a different thing. But
00:23:31
Speaker
It's not optional. And for a long time, I just thought this is terrible. There's no way that a dating app is going to capture who I am or get a feel for who I am in any way or at any fidelity level, at any level of resolution that's actually going to be used for someone meeting.
00:23:49
Speaker
right? Everyone's always just kind of shooting in the dark, as hard as I might try, as vulnerable as I try to be in my app. And like, I've done revision after revision, making sure like, okay, if I don't know me, am I going to get this joke? Is this too inside jokey? You know what I mean? And I see people on the apps making these mistakes all the time, which is totally human, totally fine, because it's like,
00:24:08
Speaker
There's no training, there's no class that we all went to learning how to market yourself on a dating app. People specialize in this. This is exactly what we're doing. I guess I just wanted to give you license to dig in on that a little more.
00:24:27
Speaker
I don't know because because you do this because you focus on this. Are there any like weird insights or things that you've noticed or trends that you wish more people understood or you know because like yeah the requirement of digital marketing skills.
00:24:43
Speaker
It's just weird and it's new. And like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what about. And I think, and I will say, I guess to get into the, and then I'll shut up, but to get into the men, women thing, I do think it's harder for men.
Challenges Men Face in Online Dating
00:24:56
Speaker
I think most men, we just suck at it.
00:25:01
Speaker
There's been tons of studies on taking the correct selfie and women taking the right selfie again i'm not saying that men or women you know we all have her challenges i'm speaking from a man's perspective but women are very good very often you can look on any instagram account.
00:25:16
Speaker
and see tons of very good photos, right? Men are terrible at taking selfies. What do they do? They go in the bathroom and take a selfie and they still do it, even though scientifically and the data has demonstrated, like people will not often swipe on your photo because you took a bathroom selfie, like just stop doing it or don't do it with sunglasses on, right? Or the fish thing. Everyone jokes about that, but it's facts. People do it all the time.
00:25:38
Speaker
even though it's rooted in this and it's funny I think some people joke but I think they they I gotta find it but it's like they talked about how it's rooted in this idea of like primal sense of providing so like that's why they show like the fish thing yeah and I'm like I mean it makes sense to me on some level but I'm like come on like we're the modern world I get it like if that's your lifestyle then cool but
00:25:59
Speaker
But I just think this, look, at the end of the day, I think that especially if you're a man, most men I talk with or most people that I know that are getting coaching, it's men. And the reason why is men, they struggle with things like low confidence or how to communicate and the odds are stacked against them on dating apps. They're stacked against them because by the time they get to
00:26:20
Speaker
a you know when i hate creating these kind of artificial scales but let's just for the sake of this conversation say by the time they get to you know a seven out of a ten objectively what someone would have would you know. Write someone or eight or whatever they understand that person is already exhausted because they probably have tons of people liking them.
00:26:41
Speaker
and then that person has to sift through and then by the time you get there and if you don't have much experience to stand out or communicate or get right to the point like you know we're talking about booking the date or understanding how to flow with that person quickly and not create a pen power relationship but just kind of get like listen okay great I'll see you for coffee like tomorrow at this time if you don't understand that and have that experience you're already going to be tossed out the gate and again I'm not saying it's a general rule but you really have to
00:27:07
Speaker
There's so little time to stand out and move the conversation and escalate to in person. So for video, for me, that's the fastest way, right? And I think that
00:27:21
Speaker
I think that the training and the skillset in the modern age of yeah, marketing, branding, it's your personal brand. How do you market yourself? And the best way to do that is to tell a story. So if you craft your dating profile in a way that tells a story about maybe a specific element of your lifestyle, or for example, I'm a single dad, right? So part of my profile, which I'm not on any dating apps now, but part of my profile is like, I tell a story of like, Hey, I'm a single dad entrepreneur.
00:27:47
Speaker
And the first video that I had was like, Hey, my name is Lee Michael. I'm a single dad of a three year old boy. I spend most of my time working on my dating app. But here I am, you know, I'm dating too. And I make like a joke about how I suck at dating, you know, and it's like, it's awesome. That's that's and like my story of my profile.
00:28:04
Speaker
paints the picture of me as an entrepreneur and a single dad. And I love a fun, low-key, yes, I'm serious, but I'm also a very relaxed, comedic, fun person. And I think if people understand how to begin to create their personal brand in a dating app as a story that they're telling, rather than these disparate parts, so you have six different photos and random things, I think they'd be far better served to be able to. And take one example, right? On Instagram accounts that maybe you like or follow,
00:28:32
Speaker
Think of any theme that they have going on. They often have a consistent theme or branding image that compels you or draws you in, right? I mean, you tell me, do you follow any, like I follow lots of Instagram accounts that have a very specific branding and you need to be able to take that model and put that in a dating app context.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I think there's a few key parts that you need to hit on too, right? Like, why do I advocate for pitch your friend? Because pitch your friend demonstrates you have good social bonds and social bonds are an attractive quality. And speaking from a man's perspective, women feel more secure and safe when they know that somebody is not just a loner or has no friends and no offense to anybody that doesn't have lots of friends. I'm just saying that that's an important quality.
00:29:13
Speaker
I mean, listen, there's lots of them back there. Loneliness is a thing. There are a lot of, you know, the numbers are coming out. Vivek Murthy wrote the book together talking about loneliness and like a lot more and more and more people are saying that they have almost zero close friends, which is
00:29:29
Speaker
a part of the problem. I'm not saying those people are failures or whatever. It's not their fault. It may not be their fault. Then one way of what I'd say when I talk to people about this, I'm like, look, how can you solve that? Well, look, start joining a social group first off. If you're struggling with dating,
00:29:47
Speaker
and you're not effective at building confidence or communicating that's okay everybody has been there or at least a lot of us have and how do you fix that you start by doing things like there's tons of like social groups out there you can do community sports right things that are low cost that you can go out on like even in my city there's stuff like
00:30:05
Speaker
a dinner social on Tuesday nights every week at a different place. And there's tons of random people there. They're not going there to date. I mean, maybe they do, but it's like they're there to also just have fun, right? And so doing those things can really help meet new people and build up skills just talking so that you're not so focused on the dating piece. I think that's something also a lot of people struggle with is they really dial into like, I need to find someone. I'm zoned in. And that energy and that vibe that you give off, if you're really focused on dating,
00:30:34
Speaker
It will impact, I think, how you're coming across to somebody and what you're attracting. Because they'll know like, oh, this person's blasting me in a text, or they're sending me tons of messages, or it doesn't seem like they have things going on in their life. So that's what I'm saying is that we started this off like dating is hard. There's tons of parts of your life world you got to get grounded
00:30:58
Speaker
And then try to date, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, and we're, you know, we're veering into like life advice here, which is valid because, you know, dating is, is, is the practice of like bringing yourself to meeting new people and whatever yourself is, that's what you're bringing as somebody who just moved cities two months ago. I just want to like, I do, I do think it's a challenge. It can be really hard to connect to new people, especially as you get older. Um, but I, I just want to echo what you said. I think it's a hundred percent worth it, like putting in the time and effort to just like get something on the calendar where you're meeting somebody new somehow.
00:31:28
Speaker
Um, for anybody who might be listening, who's in that situation and you don't obviously, well, I don't know, for what it's worth. I definitely endorse that. I think it's, yeah, I think having community or putting in the work to build community, um, to be working towards that is I think a really critical thing.
00:31:43
Speaker
What are you passionate about, right? For example, if you like board games, if you like sports, find those things in your city and then be like, hey, I'm going to start just going to those things and meeting people that do that, right? And then, oh, want to grab a coffee, take it from there. Nobody is going to be like, oh, wow, you're here in your city. You're new here. It's like you got to do the work to build up those relationships, right? Yeah.
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess I'm just saying like, you know, sometimes that work, for what it's worth in my perspective, just because I'm in it right now, like, it can be hard. It can be like, okay, I did some searching, I tried to find a tabletop gaming, get me up or something, and I couldn't find something or I went to a thing and I met some people and we just kind of didn't vibe. It can be frustrating. It can be really
00:32:34
Speaker
slow going, but just to echo that I think it's 100% worth it. Even if it doesn't feel like it's immediately snap your fingers and find it, I think it's definitely worth the effort to do that work. Which is, I think connected to dating because I think especially for men, dating can turn into, or a romantic connection can turn into where we look for a lot of that social validation or a lot of intimacy.
00:33:00
Speaker
and using the term intimacy really broadly here. But I think men especially, we look to a romantic partner for to get those needs met, where I think women and I think we should be getting that from friends. And I think men were at an interesting time culturally.
00:33:18
Speaker
or these Western men, right? Because we're grappling with this thing where we sort of can't rely on a romantic partner to sort of handle our social lives for us anymore. We kind of have to do that on our own and we don't always have the tools, I think, to make that happen easily. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. I think that
00:33:38
Speaker
Um, that's why you see the rise of things like, you know, my buddy runs a men's group, right? And I founded, founded that a few years back and runs it now. And it's, that's an example where there's a group of men getting together to work on their shit, you know, whether it's working out together, breath work, meditation, talks, special guests, like sharing, sharing, going through the motions. And you need that because you can't
00:34:00
Speaker
people are realizing you can't dump everything on your partner. You need your own spaces as men to be able to grow and bond together. The stuff that we forgot over however long ago. I'm always like, I need a space where I can... I mean, that's why I do martial arts, right? Like boxing. It's like, I need that space to go release some emotions and some anger and get humbled and
00:34:22
Speaker
You know build community with those people and learn from them and and like they're also entrepreneurs So now I'm like talking about business and it's just all those elements of it are what man needs so that you don't bring that to your Relationship, you know, you can be honest be transparent be open be emotional Those are all important qualities that men also can work on but you got to know like the limit of
00:34:43
Speaker
And also, this is like, honestly, like communication styles, right? And understanding how to communicate like, Hey, can I can I share these things with you? Do you have space to hear and listen to those things that I'm going to share? Okay, no problem. I'm gonna like, I'll keep that to myself for now. And I think that's something I hear a lot from daters as well is
00:35:02
Speaker
When I've chatted with a couple people, they tell me about their first date or their second date. And I think sometimes, and even myself, I've been there, where I've revealed too much early on. I've revealed way too much about myself or my personal life that I'm like, damn, I go home later and I self-reflect and I go, why did I say that much? It's like part of me wants to realize, not wants to, part of me has realized that
00:35:30
Speaker
It's okay to keep some things a mystery and build that relationship over time because you don't know that person. You want to build trust, right? Plus it's a reflection of you. You know, some things are meant to be your secrets and you don't know this person well enough. So those are some levels of just having that sense of awareness as you go through the early days of meeting someone and knowing the balance.
Sharing Personal Information in Dating
00:35:50
Speaker
Again, back to this full circle of lifestyle and having all these other elements and it takes work. It takes work, you know? I hear what you're saying.
00:36:01
Speaker
about that like sort of oversharing thing. I think also another thing that I would highlight about that something that I've worked on is like you want to demonstrate to anybody a platonic a friend or potential romantic partner to anybody that you've got like
00:36:14
Speaker
I mean, let me go to this way. You don't want to demonstrate to them. I think I want to have the boundary skills. I want to have the life skills that allow me to know when I should be vulnerable with someone, when I should, I don't want to say burden, but when I should entrust someone with something pretty deep and sensitive. And I think
00:36:35
Speaker
I think demonstrating to someone that you have the capacity to be sensitive about whether they're ready to take on that kind of vulnerability. You know what I mean? Like kind of reading the room. And I do think that's, I don't know, I want to say that's kind of advanced or like, because listen, I mean, I know, I think men are probably, generally speaking, have a tougher time with that. But I certainly have encountered women who
00:37:02
Speaker
you know, can work on that as well. I think it's just a difficult life skill. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think an advanced thing that takes time to learn and I'm still learning always constantly, you know, and for someone who I feel is
00:37:14
Speaker
I'm very honest about what's going on in my life. I'm very transparent and I'm always like, I need to have that awareness to know. They don't need to know all that right now. They can over time if I build that relationship with them, but that's something that I definitely have worked on in my own personal life because you want to be like, here's me, right? Again, back to when you meet someone, you want to be fully open and go like, here's all of me.
00:37:40
Speaker
Because again, I feel like part of it is the limited time. They're like, Oh, if they only knew this, if they only knew that, it's like part of it too, is you just got to go with the, with the flow and life works, how it works sometimes. And you, you, some people, you know, come into your life and then they, they're not, it's not the right timing. It's not the right, and that's okay. It is what it is. So.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, there is that urge that like feeling that like you're like, okay, I've only got so many matches and so many dates and like I need to I need to show this person the absolute best version of myself and be vulnerable and be sensitive and be impressive and show status or whatever, you know, like you want to like shoot your shot as hard as you can.
00:38:18
Speaker
But fucking let it all go, you know, at the same time, you're just you. And if you set up all this, all these narratives and this construct of like, I got to do all this, I got to prep, part of it is like, enjoy. That's what I feel like I try to hammer home this message of dating should be fun and comedic. And I think it's like, let's relax a little bit. But we but
00:38:39
Speaker
society were really tense because of this like, again, like you just said, it's funny, like, I only have so many matches, I maybe only have one or two dates, and you're like, I really want to like, land this date, you know, or, or hang out with this person. But it's like, at the same time, I don't think that's healthy for for anybody, because you're setting yourself up for probably failure, because you're totally and then the pressure that that other person is going to feel when you get on the date, and you're just like, Oh, yeah.
00:39:05
Speaker
That's not fun. No, it's no fun for anyone. So it's tough. And again, that's exactly why I think leveraging a lot of the tools and resources available. There's tons of free resources online. There's tons of coaches. I'm not saying everybody has the best advice, but again, you got to put in the work. Not everybody
00:39:25
Speaker
It's, again, a skill set that you've got to learn. Yeah. And I want to pivot back to video dating. But the last thing I think I'd say about that is that, for me, one of the biggest things and one of the things that I'm trying to do with this podcast is I just love it when dudes vent with each other about the stuff, like what you and me are doing right here. I think a lot of dudes, like if any dude is listening, I think the thing to do. And if this podcast helps somebody feel like they're doing that or that's awesome,
00:39:53
Speaker
just getting a guy friend and being able to sit down and venting about like, oh man, I was on this date and I really felt like I was babbling. I have a friend who calls this excited man babble. But just venting, this is what it was like, this is what it was about. Just having somebody else listen and validate what this process is like is I think half the battle, man.
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah because a lot of times if you just keep it trapped in your head you just if you feel like you're. Battling the dating apps and every single woman in your city all by yourself it's just so easy to get to feel bitter so easy to feel defeated. Yeah that's why i started the podcast to be and that's why i'm doing this with you and doing talking about these things because we're not.
00:40:35
Speaker
we're all putting ourselves out there. We're just like feel very siloed and individual because we're all creating these little tiny profiles and here's me, here's me, here's me. But it's like, we're actually all doing the exact same thing. And I think, again, if you can change your mindset towards it, and yes, of course, vent with other people and laugh about it, that's going to go a long way. The mindset piece for me is it's very hard to shift, but I really think that changing the mindset in approaching it,
00:41:01
Speaker
having
Learning from Dating Experiences
00:41:02
Speaker
a laugh. Laugh at yourself. Yeah, date went bad. Fuck it. I'm going to debrief with my friends and we're going to laugh about it. I've been on tons of dates and tons of them went terrible. Maybe I drank too much and talked too much and embarrassed myself, but I just laugh about it now because I'm like, you know what? It was an experience. I learned from that experience and now I'm a bit more mindful, but I also have a story to tell.
00:41:26
Speaker
Nobody got hurt. There wasn't any anything bad that happened. It's just something how I reflected on what I did and me talking too much. Okay, so what it happens you learn from it, you know, yeah, so
00:41:40
Speaker
Okay. I want, I want to bring us back a little bit to the video stuff because I think like what we're talking about here is like, you know, after you get the match, once you get out on the date, like important stuff, not easy, mandating is hard. Early stages, right? You got it. You got to get that match. You've got to show up on somebody's radar. People are looking at their phones to meet their next person. Like the person you're going to be telling your grandkids one day about how when you first saw their grandmother, you were sitting on the toilet swiping, right? Like that's, that's just how we meet people now. And like, so the video thing,
00:42:09
Speaker
I think you're absolutely on point. I did another podcast episode. Actually, someone I should connect you to. Mia Lux has this app that's different thing, but it's called Levett, but she's also really bullish on video. I think video is smart.
00:42:25
Speaker
I think video is smart because it gives you a better feel of someone. You sending that first bumble message where it's just a video being like, hey, this is me, this is my face, this is my voice. I think it's vulnerable. I think it makes a woman feel safe. I think men can forget how important it is for a woman to feel first and foremost safe while connecting to you.
00:42:46
Speaker
I guess I want to ask, I think putting a video on the internet of yourself, and here we are, I'm going to put some of this on Instagram or something, but that can feel really vulnerable. That can feel too much. While it is vulnerable and while it is showing you an aspect of yourself, and I assume, well, I would advise men to do this more urgently than women because I do think the numbers, and we can dig into that if you want to, but I do think
00:43:12
Speaker
just the numbers game, it's harder for men. And so it's more important that men are vulnerable.
Creating Engaging Video Content
00:43:18
Speaker
It's more important than men stand out more in these dating apps.
00:43:22
Speaker
What would you say or how do you approach somebody who might be feeling like, I want to do this, I want to stand out, but like doing a video of myself and putting myself having a moving video of me talking first thing that when I pop up on your card stack and hinge or whatever, that feels like a lot. That feels like anxiety inducing. That might be too much. The internet is a crazy place. Like what would you say to someone who is like feeling that anxiety? You know what I mean?
00:43:48
Speaker
Yeah, firstly, it's okay to feel like that. That's very normal to feel like that. Number two is, if you're doing all the things and they're not working, then it's time to step out of your comfort zone and try something new. So I mean, that is all part like when you first downloaded a dating app to use it.
00:44:05
Speaker
you did something that you didn't do before, and then you made this profile, and then you started to swipe, and then you went on dates. So for me, it's just a logical extension of realizing that you can leverage another tool that will actually help you stand out much more effectively. And it may not be for everybody, and that's fine, but at the very least, by doing something like a date with us video Q&A, I'm gonna give you some tools and trainings and best practices on how to take that video, how to put it in your profile,
00:44:34
Speaker
And you're going to give me some feedback in a month or two months and be like, hey, people are liking my video. Here's what people are saying. And then we can adjust as we go. But at the very least, if you're sitting in the dark shooting your shot and nothing is working for you, then you might as well try something different. And a couple of ways to do that, if people don't do a date with us Q&A, how to make videos, I would suggest you could start a few ways. So number one would be, look, I created picture friend and heart string for the simple reason that if you are
00:45:04
Speaker
nervous to start making content or feel very vulnerable, offload that piece of content to your friends. And how do you do that? You send them a pitch link to pitch you. If you don't use heart string, you could literally ask your mom or your dad or your friends, be like, hey, can you guys do a quick 30 second video that I'm going to use in my dating profile that is just you talking about me and say whatever you want. I'd love it.
00:45:28
Speaker
I bet you if you did that and you did no videos at all in just that video, you would probably get a match and you probably get someone going. That's hilarious that you got your mom to pitch you in your profile. That was really sweet. So that would be the starting place for me to see how that works. The second place would be.
00:45:45
Speaker
There's tons of prompts you can leverage. And I have like a list of the best ones that I'd recommend. They're part of the date with this question. You know, you could answer, how would your friends describe you? That's pretty straightforward. Or instead, if you don't feel comfortable answering that next one would be, what are you looking for? It could it doesn't have to be necessarily, you know, like,
00:46:02
Speaker
in a partner perhaps but like hey i'd love to like do xyz if you want to go on a first day with me let's let's go grab a meal at this place you know like whatever right and i think and then again if you don't want to have that video of yourself okay here's another one.
00:46:18
Speaker
My friend is an amazing guitarist. He's more of a shy guy, doesn't really take videos himself. I was like, bro, all you got to do is set the camera on the tabletop, press record while you're playing guitar. That's your video. So that's you playing guitar. And you're not even looking at the camera, like just put it in a place where you don't even see it. But now you're doing this passion or you're showing your hobby that you love. And that's a piece of content for you.
00:46:42
Speaker
Or, hey, you love food. I don't know, showcase food. I think there's many ways. It's just, again, the mindset of how you think it should appear to somebody. You have to start from where you already are at. You like mountain biking. You like walking. Just take a quick video of that. Start there, and then build the content from there. So for me, that's part of what I like to support and empower daters with is showing them that they can do that. That's part of the thing I'm doing now with Sarah, my business partner, on 95 hinge prompts. So we're literally going through the entire list of hinge prompts.
00:47:11
Speaker
making video content for every single prompt and being, and they're all different, right? Some of them show our faces talking, some of them show scenery. And part of that exercise is to stay committed to that goal. But it's at the same time to showcase, here's an array of content that we just made over 95 days that you can also do this. So yeah.
00:47:33
Speaker
Yeah, I've been watching those and they're super, super good. I will say about Sarah. She is like a performer. She's like somebody who is comfortable on social media. She's got like whatever moxie, you know, she's comfortable in front of that that iPhone camera, you know, kicking butt on Instagram. And I think I mean, what do you think? Like, like, like if I'm somebody who's like, OK, I'm serious about doing the next thing, I've been trying the apps are not working. I want to try this video thing. But I feel like
00:48:03
Speaker
you know, I'm, I'm, I see there's so much awesome content out there, right? Like I'm not on TikTok anymore, but like you've done the TikTok and you've just got like a torrent of people and it's, and it's like production value. People like know what they're doing, even if it doesn't look like it's necessarily well lit or like staged or whatever, like it takes a lot of work to make something that's like, that looks even kind of cash. You know what I mean? So I think like the production value aspect can be,
00:48:30
Speaker
intimidating. Does that make sense or is that overblown? No, I think that that makes sense and that's fair, but here's something I would say again, which is like, who cares? It's like, what do you have to lose by just being yourself and doing your own quality videos for yourself? Nothing.
00:48:45
Speaker
You don't know what you're going to get from making a video, but you know what you're not, you know what you are getting by not making videos. So, you know, again, there's levels to this, right? And it's, I'll give you a classic example. You know, matchmaker has asked me a few matchmakers were like, well, I make reels all the time. I'm like, yeah, but you don't make day with us reels. And then they go, well, what if I started doing interviews and I go, okay, go ahead. But you know what you're missing out on? You're missing out on me asking the questions. I have my own unique qualities that make me me.
00:49:13
Speaker
that will draw out questions or draw out answers from a data when I interview them. And that's the human piece that everybody has that nobody can copy. So whatever business you start, whatever podcast you start, whatever way you represent yourself, that's you. So just be true to you. So I just, I love when people say those things because I'm like, who cares what anyone else is doing? You know, like it's like, for example, like we talked, we talked about how many dating apps there are. My core value is authenticity in anything that I'm doing, especially in my two businesses.
00:49:43
Speaker
and Hinge, Bumble, Tinder, a dating app from China can copy everything about my app and do whatever they do, but it's not going to be the same, period. So I don't really... Any data that says that, I just think again, let's shift the mindset to be like, let's just start making a video of ourselves and see what happens, right? So yeah, I love that. I love those kinds of things and I really want people to understand that they have the power
00:50:10
Speaker
within themselves and really literally in their hand, all they need to do is make a 30 second video. And I it's going to go miles ahead of everybody else. That's, you know what, and if it doesn't find everyone proved me wrong, but where I stand right now, where I stand right now and what I'm seeing, it's working to to everybody's favor that is trying it. And you know what, even if even if it doesn't
00:50:31
Speaker
work to the way they think it is. It also is doing something else, which I think is so amazing. Two things here. One is that it's helping them step out of their comfort zone to build some confidence in communicating and even learning about yourself by making videos of yourself. And you know what? As a content creator, it's hard. It's hard. But I put myself out there. I'm vulnerable and I'm growing from that. And I'm building my speaking skills so that when I get in front of somebody anywhere and I could talk, I can honestly talk to anybody now doesn't. And that's something I've built up from making content.
00:51:00
Speaker
And the second piece is, especially with Pitch Your Friend, which I just love, is that it helps you learn about how you speak about your
Innovative Features in Dating Apps
00:51:08
Speaker
friends. So again, if you don't make videos for yourself but you want to support your friends, Pitch Your Friend is such an amazing way for me to learn, what am I saying about my friends? How much do I know about my friends? And I just love that idea that
00:51:21
Speaker
Asking people right like hey, tell me about your friend. Why should we date them? What's the one thing that we should know about them? And I think that's an important thing that we forget because we often talk about ourselves all the time Let's start talking about the people around us and see what happens from that. So
00:51:35
Speaker
I love that. Lee Michael, we're getting up near running out of time here, man. So it's, um, date with us, pitch your friend heart string. I'll put all the links in the show description stuff.
Episode Wrap-up and Future Discussions
00:51:47
Speaker
Thank you so much for making time, man. There are so many other things that I would like to dig in, dig in on about like, you know, the difficulties of starting a new dating app, right? Like a big part of dating apps is you have to have people using it, but people oftentimes don't want to use it until there are people on there. It's like a catch 22, right? Um, but I, it's, I, I think it's so important that we, that.
00:52:06
Speaker
that did we get more apps out there that we changed kind of how the big ones are doing what they're doing because, well, that's a whole of the rabbit hole to go down. We'll do a part two. But yeah, we're coming. I would love to. So we're coming. Yeah. I mean, everyone can find us on you date with us Instagram or at heartstring dating and yeah, message me. I'm behind the scenes. I'm the only one here. So yeah, super grateful. We got the chat today. Scott has always loved it. And let's just keep it rolling brother.
00:52:34
Speaker
Sounds good, man. Best look at everything and we will talk soon. Thank you so much. See you, dude. This has been wish you all the best. Thank you so, so much for listening. I just wanted to put a quick thing at the end here. Thank you. I'm watching the kind of dashboards for the podcast and stuff because of course I am, you know, vanity.
00:52:55
Speaker
But there are folks listening to this podcast in cities where I don't know anybody. So that means there are folks listening to this podcast who I don't know. So I just wanted to thank you all. Thank you for however you found this. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sticking with me. I hope it's useful. My hope for this passion project is just to kind of
00:53:17
Speaker
encourage folks to have these vulnerable conversations, encourage men especially to have these vulnerable conversations about dating. I think it's an underappreciated difficulty and if you're out there having a hard time with it, I feel you and it's real and I hope you find a way to
00:53:36
Speaker
have conversations with your friends, with people around you who care about you, maybe similar to the way that I have conversations with my guests on the pod. So yeah, I just wanted to say thank you so much. I hope it's helpful. I would love to hear from you. If you have ideas, if you think I'm right, if you think I'm wrong,
00:53:54
Speaker
My voice sounds stupid or great or whatever. Anything you want to say. The best way to reach me is on Instagram. It's just wish you all the best pod. And I sort of throw little snippets from podcast episodes up there to try to let people find out about it. But you can find me there. You can comment on the video. You can DM me. You can do whatever you want.
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah, and that's just at wish you all the best pod. All one word, you know, you know how to spell it. Okay, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And I will catch you next time.