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Chrysa - Dating App Survival Guide
62 Plays1 year ago
Chrysa lives in London, we met online, and we just jumped right in and talked about all things modern dating. I knew she'd be a great guest so after a few online calls I asked here to join me on the pod. We ended up aiming for a Dating App Survival Guide - which is sort of just the two of us chatting about steategies for men n dating apps. I'm excited for you to listen to this one even though it's long! Enjoy!
Note: I've re-uploaded this episode to fix an audio issue, I hope it sounds better now! Thank you for your patience, I'm still learning this stuff. =]
music - "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch -https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch - Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:12
Speaker
Okay. Welcome back to Wish You All the Best, a personal podcast about modern dating. I'm Scott Simmons. This is a long episode. I'm not going to apologize for it. I thought it was a really great talk. If you've been liking this podcast so far, I think you're going to like it. This is with Chrissa. I'm not even going to try to pronounce her last name. It doesn't matter, but it's long and amazing.
00:00:36
Speaker
Um, uh, I met her on the internet. She lives in London and she just reached out and said, you've got interesting ideas about dating. Let's, let's talk about it. Um, and we've, we've been on a couple of calls where we've just kinda.
00:00:50
Speaker
thrown ideas back and forth at each other. And I really appreciated her perspective. Again, we don't see everything 100% the same way, but gosh, it would be boring if that happened. But I do agree with so much of what she says, and I really valued her insight. And I hope it's helpful for all y'all.
Sound Quality and Initial Thoughts
00:01:09
Speaker
So yeah, with no further ado, I apologize. There's a little bit of us talking about mic issues early on just for sound stuff. I don't know. I just wanted to make sure that she sounded good, but whatever. Hopefully that's not that big of a deal. And yeah, with no further ado, here's my conversation with Grissa. Enjoy.
00:01:34
Speaker
All right, Chrisa, my friend, welcome to wish you all the best. I'm so excited to have you on here to give you sort of a quick introduction to my audience. We've chatted on the phone or on a call a couple of times. You are on the other side of the planet. We in London, we met online and you very quickly had showed me that you have all these amazing ideas about
00:02:01
Speaker
modern dating, which I'm of course very interested in, and I'm so happy to have you here on the pod. How are you?
00:02:07
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much for having me and what a kind intro. Thank you so much, very kind words. Yeah, thank you for having me. It feels like every time we talk, we find so many things to talk about. So we want to keep going and going and going and then obviously you decided why not do it online, actually live recorded.
00:02:32
Speaker
And so we agree to that also because I think that what you're doing is marvelous. You put yourself out there debating the process of dating in, you know, 2024. And you are trying to help people, men especially, navigate the
00:02:57
Speaker
the world of modern dating.
Modern Dating Insights
00:03:00
Speaker
And I think I find that interesting and how wonderful to be concerned with these kind of issues and how wonderful that you want to help others in such an altruistic manner.
00:03:16
Speaker
And that's why I said, OK, let's do it. And this is a conversation between friends. And if the people that will hear this conversation benefit from what they hear on this podcast, then even if it's just one person that we change their mind about something or we improve the next day, they go on to then this is a successful podcast for me.
00:03:45
Speaker
Oh, thank you for the kind words. Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay. Two things real quick. The microphone with your hair thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that? Yep. It's okay. No, no, no. Oh, I couldn't even tell because. Okay. What do I do? No, it's perfect. It's perfect. It's perfect. Okay. So, which is a great pivot into, to give, to give my listeners a concept of, or an idea of who you are and why I kind of value your perspective.
00:04:15
Speaker
so much, I'm gonna likewise be very kind to you for a moment. You're a very attractive woman. You're in the London. You're also successful. You're also, I would say, professionally successful, and you're the kind of woman who, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be like- Repels men. Not repels men. Okay, let's put a pin in that. What I wanted to say is the kind of woman who is looking for romantic connection
00:04:43
Speaker
because you want romantic connection, not because you need someone to take care of you, not because you need someone who will solve any of, like you're one of these women who doesn't, quote unquote, need a partner for like, just like for financial survival, right? And I do think,
Building Connections without Dependency
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, sorry. Am I close? Am I right? Am I wrong? Yes, but don't go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead. Yeah. No, not at all. I've been getting a strong sense of that from our conversations about dating and we'll get into it in like 30 seconds here. But yeah, I just kind of wanted to like contextualize that for the listeners. And that's a big part of why I think I have valued your perspective so much because honestly, that's really the kind of person who I'm hoping to find because
00:05:32
Speaker
And I think a lot of men grapple with this, like I don't want to be with someone who is with me because they think they quote unquote need me or that they're financially dependent on me. I want someone who likes me for me, someone who will stay with me even if my financial fortunes fail, you know, like someone who, yeah, I wanna feel appreciated and seen for who I am. And I think a lot of men feel that way, and women too, does that make sense?
00:06:01
Speaker
Yes, definitely. But for us, professional success is a very recent thing. And we are still adjusting to this reality. When you say us, you mean women. Women, yes, exactly. And we are still trying to navigate unknown waters here. So the dating, our dating lives,
00:06:28
Speaker
I would say there is a little bit of ambiguity there because we don't know how to present ourselves. How can you be a feminine? How feminine do you need to be on every day that you go on? How successful can you project yourself to be?
00:06:48
Speaker
And what happens if you happen to make more money than your date? Or what happens if you make less? How are you being perceived? What is the common perception about what a human means in the days in 2024 and beyond? Yeah. We don't know that. And I think it goes beyond.
00:07:14
Speaker
physical attractiveness. It is still all about chemistry in the real world, at least, or when you jump from the dating apps to the real world, and you go on an actual date. At the end of the day, it's all about chemistry. And you know that I am a relationship management professional. Business relationships, not like romantic relationships. Business relationships, exactly. Is business relationships
00:07:44
Speaker
But businesses are not actual physical entities that you can interact with. You, I am interacting with actual people. And businesses across the world, early on, they recognized that when they have clients of their own business client,
00:08:05
Speaker
They can benefit from having a person there, a dedicated professional, that
Pillars of Relationships
00:08:12
Speaker
is managing this relationship or this relationship to optimize them. And essentially what we do is we try to foster positive relationships with clients that
00:08:26
Speaker
will benefit us as a business and also our clients will benefit for how we manage their relationship between us. We align our strategies for growth and I have to maintain very good relationships with their supply chain. It's a lot of people that you have to interact with in a positive manner in order to maintain a relationship
00:08:56
Speaker
And it's just an everyday relationship, like every other relationship that social or whatever, family relationship, you put work into it. And there are three pillars, I think, to managing relationships in general. And very briefly, from my perspective, is of course trust that will take some time to build.
00:09:25
Speaker
The feeling that the person you're talking to knows who you are to an extent and what you want to do in business terms, that's to understand your strategy, where you want to be, how you want to grow, how you want to evolve your product, etc. And third is
00:09:46
Speaker
They need to know that they have somebody they can rely on when there is uncertainty, somebody that helps them navigate stress and uncertainty. I think those three principles apply to every human relationship. I know at least if you were successful in these three pillars, you're successful across the board. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's, um, hang on one sec. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
00:10:15
Speaker
Okay, so I want to drill into this three pillars of relationship real quick, but to kind of lay out a roadmap for us. I'm hoping for this episode, I do want to get into the dating app survival guide. I think that'll be a great conversation. I want to put that little marker on the map for us, but briefly,
00:10:37
Speaker
So first of all, thank you for sharing your experience. And it's obvious to me that your professional experience really relates strongly to your people skills, your understanding of people. I just want to highlight that. I think that's very impressive and cool. So tell me again, these three pillars of relationships. I want to make sure I have it right.
00:10:59
Speaker
Uh, trust or understanding reliability. Yes. You can call it reliability. Well, what would you call it? Um, anthropologically speaking, I would say, yeah, reliability indeed, but also, um,
00:11:23
Speaker
They should be able to lean on you in times of uncertainty and that's because you know what you're doing. So yes, you are reliable because of learning, knowledge, experience. And you are also, because you're also invested in this relationship. They know to come to me if there is a problem because they know it's
00:11:54
Speaker
to my best interest to help them. Okay. Yeah. Do you feel like that translates into the romantic, those three pillars? Yeah. From, I can speak from a woman's perspective, right? Yes. That is exactly, I would say what I would be looking to find in my future partner. Absolutely. 100%.
00:12:24
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I would want somebody who hasn't announced, obviously I can trust in the long run. It takes some time to trust somebody and it's true persistent positive action. And I want somebody who wants to know me better, absolutely. And then
00:12:48
Speaker
Last but not least at all, when I am actually conflicted with something, I have existential questions, I have problems in life, somebody to go to and ask for support and guidance. Reliability. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is in a sense, reliability.
00:13:11
Speaker
I'm also hearing in that third one a little bit of like competence, like you want someone who you know has experience and it is... Well said, yes. Definitely. And now, yeah, somebody who...
00:13:26
Speaker
is equipped to deal with your lives against problems, misfortunes. And that's now, that's, I guess, why we're not compatible with everyone. Not everyone that we meet, we feel that is potentially equipped to do that. And maybe that's a, you know, a showstopper for some people. That makes a lot of sense.
00:13:57
Speaker
Okay, this is gonna be the case for this whole conversation. There's a bunch of different directions we can go from there, but I would love to switch into... Well, okay, so I would love to sort of preface the dating app Survival Guide.
00:14:13
Speaker
with the reality of how we use the apps. You have a view on this or I just want to give you the microphone, like talk about how the dating apps have changed our attitudes towards finding love and just like the realities of modern dating. I have a lot of thoughts on this. I have a podcast about this, but I want to give you the mic. Tell me what you got. What do we all have in common when we use the apps? I think is we don't like using them. We want to be off them.
00:14:43
Speaker
So let's talk about it, about that for a sec. Why do we dislike the app so much? And I thought about it, I was thinking about it the other day and I was like, everything's too generic. We don't like the apps, we think, you know, they're evil. And we generally, the more we use them, the more we dislike them and we wanna get off them quickly. So why is that?
00:15:12
Speaker
Traditionally, the art of finding love, if you like, or the science or whatever you think finding love is, is something that happens in the three-dimensional world.
00:15:28
Speaker
The real world, yeah. The real world. Yeah, it happens in real life. And it is a lot of what finding love entails, the process of finding love. It has an element of, I guess, divine intervention. Sure.
00:15:50
Speaker
It is a way of, I guess, if you believe in God, then it's God. If you believe in universe, if you believe whatever, it's like life talking to you, pushing you towards a new direction. Some people, when they find love, that is a life-changing event to them. And I would call it divine causality. That's how we interpret love.
00:16:19
Speaker
That element of, do you want to say it's fate? Do you want to say it's luck? Do you want to say you drove yourself to finding love with intention? Whatever it might be, is it God for you? Is it who? The universe? Whatever it is, there is an element of divine causality.
00:16:46
Speaker
to it. That's why the love has been the subject of philosophical analysis. Since the beginning of time. So now we move to the apps. We took that beautiful thing
00:17:08
Speaker
Can I pause for just a moment to highlight or to investigate one thing about what you just said? Absolutely, yes. Let's get to the apps. When you talk about this like divine, this higher power of God, something divine about finding love.
00:17:20
Speaker
I agree. I think, I think we all want to feel like, I think when you're in a really healthy, loving thing, it really feels sublime. You have a feeling inside of you that is like, wow, I must be the first person in the history of the universe to feel this amazing thing because it's so amazing. Like it's really that kind of sensation. And of course that's not true, right? I mean, of course we all feel things differently, but like I think
00:17:45
Speaker
you know, I think it's fair to say that we are all capable of love and feeling loved, but like when you experience it, I would say it does in some way feel divine. It does feel like the universe has reached out and like chosen you in a way, right? 100%. So what I would kind of drill into there or what I'm interested in checking in with you about here is like, and this pivots into the dating apps, I often feel like
00:18:14
Speaker
that chemistry, that ineffable, undescribable, special feeling of love, the internet and computer code feels absolutely anathema to that feeling. It feels to me like I cannot trust. It cannot be possible that a phone app is going to help me find this amazing feeling. There's just something in me that really
00:18:40
Speaker
really resists that. I think a lot of people often want to feel like chosen. I want to feel like the universe has reached out at a specific moment and said, here you go, Scott.
Dating Apps vs. Traditional Love
00:18:54
Speaker
Here's your happiness.
00:18:56
Speaker
You know, like you want to, and somehow using a computer with an algorithm and a database behind it. Do you know what I mean? I love it. Yes. Right. Yeah. When you moved it to the apps to find law, that metaphysical, that, um, supernatural element of finding somewhere, someone almost disappears. And we'll talk about that in a sec about how, how it happens and why.
00:19:27
Speaker
So the other thing that I was going to ask about, and this might pivot directly into what we're about to talk about, because we're about to get into the reality of the dating apps. In that sensation, in that belief, that connection to something sublime, something divine,
00:19:48
Speaker
I also feel sometimes like we are, there is a comfort in a lack of choice. Like if the universe says this woman is amazing for you and is probably the right one for you and here's a person who you should invest in and date and spend your time with and water this to see what grows. I say that a lot. If the universe does that for me,
00:20:13
Speaker
for me, and I think maybe for a lot of people, but for me, that feels like, okay, I didn't have a lot of choice in this matter, or what am I saying? In a way, feeling like I don't have choice in the matter, feeling like it was chosen for me feels more comfortable in a way. I don't know quite why, but does that make sense?
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, divine causality. Yes, that's it. And that's why you want to see it through. You have a curiosity about what this person potentially can bring into your life and why, what is the meaning. We're human beings, we try to attach meaning to everything. And that's even more when it comes down to love. But Scott, we took that beautiful thing
00:21:01
Speaker
And we moved it from violently, I would say, reducibly violently, from the three-dimensional real world to a two-dimensional world that by design is a controlled environment that has rules,
00:21:29
Speaker
And that's you play the game. You are in a controlled environment. That concept, when we all go into them, we all use them these days. This is how people meet. I think 60% of couples in the USA, where you are, they meet online.
00:21:55
Speaker
So we took it to the control environment and now instead of being driven by divinity, whatever, the metaphysical world, it is driven by maths, statistics, algorithms. So by design, you know, as soon as you start using them,
00:22:24
Speaker
whoever I'm going to meet on here cannot possibly be divine intervention, what life wanted for me, because this is manly-made. It has limitations. It's not as wonderful as a real life.
00:22:44
Speaker
And also, it changed the game in so many ways, and that is data.
Data-Driven Approach to Love
00:22:52
Speaker
For the first time, I think, ever in our lives, we can quantify the process of meeting someone. There are actual statistics now, right? There are numbers. When in your life before, could you actually quantify this process? Do you know how many people liked you?
00:23:14
Speaker
I'm sure there are women that liked you secretly that you've never, you know, known about and vice versa. And it limits the actual ways we can interact at the point of when we meet. So this is now a data-driven process and
00:23:37
Speaker
that the data is captured that never happened before you cannot actually capture the data about how the process of dating for so many people now you have statistics and when you have statistics it's in numbers it's a different game probability theory comes into play maybe low of large numbers i don't know there is a lot that is going on here now though
00:24:08
Speaker
And divine causality is, I would say, man-made causality for profit. And it's understandable. This is, you know.
00:24:20
Speaker
capitalistic society, but it's definitely not divine intervention. So a lot of things change. And for the first time, now, you know, they say you cannot turn back time. Well, I think you can now through the apps, you can attend a given point of time can ask for your data from if you use Bumble, Hinge, and they should give it to you. I did that actually, yeah. You did that?
00:24:45
Speaker
because I'm a nerd. And you saw. Tell us about that. Do I have a right? What did you see? Oh my God. Honestly, probably because of European privacy laws, but I think because America basically copied some of those privacy laws.
00:25:08
Speaker
You are required, it is required that any company collecting your data give it to you if you request it. Thematch.com, the Tinder hinge, most of those are the same company.
00:25:28
Speaker
or many of the apps are the same company. The data they send you is actually very sloppy, like it's not very well presented. But Bumble, which is a separate company, sends you a very like, I think, almost elegant, but like very easy to navigate data on your experience on the app. The thing I often, the
00:25:49
Speaker
This was one of the reasons why I left San Francisco. When I tell this story, usually it's because what I'm saying is I requested my data and on Bumble over two years, over 24 months, I got 11 matches. So I just matching, not like a date, not like somebody who chatted with me, but like 11 times over two years, I matched with someone on Bumble, which to me was a
00:26:17
Speaker
little signal that maybe I wasn't in the right place. Can I ask a question on that? Of course, yeah. So in the same period of time, if it was in real life, how many women would you pass by in real life and say, oh my God, yes, I can go out with you. Great question.
00:26:42
Speaker
with the intention of going out with them because that's why you wrote the apps for, right? Yeah. So you're asking like in that same two year period, how many women were there that I encountered in real life who I felt like, oh, maybe there's something there. Yeah. That's a great question. I won't name names of course.
00:27:03
Speaker
I would say not many. Yeah, I would say not many. I would say there were a handful of women who, yeah, I bumped into just going to my day-to-day life. Yeah, I would say two, three, four maybe.
00:27:26
Speaker
And now, those are people who, during that time, I, you know, I would still, I did, like, I'm thinking of one woman who I did ask out, we met in real life, and I was like, hey, let's get dinner sometime, you know. But yeah, other times, you know, it's somebody who you just kind of get to know, and you bump into them again, and you learn like, oh, well, she's not looking to
00:27:49
Speaker
date me for one reason or another, like I'm not her cup of tea or she's in a relationship or, you know. For any reason, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So he decided to move all the, I mean,
00:28:06
Speaker
one thing that they do well is that you can totally transcend geography, space, essentially, you can transcend time. Because that's now a bigger conversation, but I can be at sleep and my profile on Raya can potentially be matching with people. I am interacting with them.
00:28:32
Speaker
my two-dimensional profile.
00:28:37
Speaker
that is in that, I would dare to say alternate universe. Yeah, why not? It's an alternate universe where I get to see thousands of male profiles and I have the ability to express my like or dislike to them in simple terms. But you can match with somebody in Portugal, easy.
00:29:07
Speaker
And increases your chances of meeting people that definitely you couldn't have met in real life. Yeah. Yeah, it is a version of ourselves. If we didn't exist, my profile on Raya wouldn't exist. So it is a version of myself. I made it. I represent myself on the apps. Yeah.
00:29:34
Speaker
the geographical reach is, you know, whatever you want to be. And you thought, okay, San Francisco is not doing it for me. Let's move. And it worked for you to a certain extent. I mean, I am certainly having a better time dating in Southern California than I was in San Francisco. But to kind of zoom out. Oh, sorry, go. Yeah. It wasn't that the decision that you made because of data.
00:30:05
Speaker
Great question. I mean, if I'm honest, I think it's a decision that I finally made because the ceiling in my apartment started leaking and I was like... That's divine causality. Yeah, it kind of felt like the universe was telling me something. I love it. I love it. I will say that that's a decision I made because I talked it over with
00:30:31
Speaker
sort of my, I'm thinking of a handful of friends, but like I just talked it over with friends who I trust and love and I know trust and love me. And I just was like thinking about like, is this the right thing for me to do if finding with this romantic connection is an important thing for me. And also because I knew that leaving San Francisco meant that I left behind those friends, like those friends who I saw in the real world,
00:31:00
Speaker
pretty regularly, I knew that I would be sacrificing that. But so that decision for me was a lot of things. But to kind of get to our thread here, like the data of it, I... For the first time, Scott, I think that people, like what
00:31:18
Speaker
People say, how can I put it? Maybe, and it's far-fetched, but just to give you, to visualize it. It was an activity, a process.
00:31:31
Speaker
finding love that has never been quantified. Like we said, all of a sudden we quantify it. We use maths and algorithms to, I guess, optimize how and how many maths we're going to get. But also there are now people who observe the data and that
00:31:57
Speaker
I think in quantum mechanics, when there is an observer looking at the data, it changes how people act. That's interesting. The observability of it. The fact that there is a record, the fact that there is an app on your phone that tells you 99 plus people are interested in talking to you, or the fact that you can see this person
00:32:21
Speaker
said, like the record of it makes it feel observed and that changes the experience. Is that what you mean? Absolutely. Yes. And it changed. Yes. And businesses, they use it. They have data analysts every day looking at the stats. So people are watching and at any given point, they can snap into your profile and say, ah, little Scott. Yeah. You've done well in the past week, but not that well the week before.
00:32:51
Speaker
Do you think there are people working at the data companies that are actively analyzing the data? I think mostly, I'm kind of a skeptic here, but I would guess that mostly what they're looking at that data for is ad placing and revenue generation. I would say mostly they're just trying to make sure that they're optimizing their chances of me buying another pack of super swipes or whatever. You know what I mean?
00:33:14
Speaker
Very good point. Yes, they do analyze them because they publish them. That is on their annual reports. They, they, they're there. And I think Bumble, they are very vocal with the statistics in particular. And I would say, ah, yeah, I think it's Bumble. I'm not sure that they published that. Is it, is it 4,000 swipes before you find your partner or eight, eight months, roughly?
00:33:45
Speaker
If that is not a statistic, I don't know what is. And it's maybe I experienced or your experience are different, but when we're talking large numbers here, there is pattern.
Adapting to Online Dating
00:33:59
Speaker
There are patterns that emerge.
00:34:02
Speaker
Okay, so we have a homework assignment. Someday we'll do a part two of this whenever you make time. Let's go find, so I have done a little bit of hunting trying to find like data that's published, but maybe together we can find it better. I've found that the dating app companies tend to be actually pretty opaque about a lot of data, but that could be a fun episode too. Let's find some of this data and then like unpack it together and see what we think about it. Okay, so let's put a big old pin in that.
00:34:32
Speaker
Okay, so trying to get back to our very exciting. So there's a lot of change. So we are not at the precipice of change. Change is here. The way we do dating has changed forever. And you and I Scott, we are the first ones to experience this.
00:34:54
Speaker
My mom and dad, I can explain it to them, they will never get it. They live in a completely different reality than us. We are now experiencing the new ways of dating and we understand how it works.
00:35:13
Speaker
And that's why you don't see, you never get the excitement. That's why conversations go dead. You get ghosted a lot. You show zero interest in your matches or you want to move to the next one because it's like, you know, vaping. You can vape all you like, but you're never going to get that.
00:35:35
Speaker
heat that you get from an actual cigarette. That's why you vape more and more and more. I don't know. It's a bad analogy, but I don't think it's when they make the app because a lot of people do believe that they make it to give you the feeling of gaming. Yeah. Casino. Yeah, the gamification.
00:36:02
Speaker
So let's pivot into it. Let's talk about the dating app Survival Guide. And let's just get messy. Let's just talk about the things you think, probably mostly men, but also maybe women, things that people can do to improve their chances of finding something awesome. And I would say mostly I'm interested in people who are looking for that real thing, like the real connection, the real
00:36:30
Speaker
potentially long-lasting romantic connection. Because there are certainly people who are on the apps who are just looking for something quick, something for tonight. I would say generally speaking, those are mostly men. We can unpack that if we want to, maybe later. But I think there are people on the apps who are, I don't want to say whether they know it or not. I think most of them do know it, but there are some people who are not looking for
00:36:54
Speaker
that real genuine connection. But I think most people are. And yet I agree with you. Everyone thinks it's really, really hard to do that. So actually, okay. One last thing before we jump into the dating app survival guide that I want to bounce off of you, because a lot of what we've been talking about so far is, I think, does paint a pretty bleak picture, right?
Opportunities in Modern Dating
00:37:19
Speaker
Like we have
00:37:21
Speaker
the late stage capitalism and the Internet really have really changed modern dating. Like it is the post Tinder era and we can't go back. I think that is all true. I did want to I did want to put a little bit of optimism in here and hear your opinion on it, because I do think in some ways it is wonderful that you have the opportunity that some guy in Santa Monica with the podcast can have a conversation with a lovely lady in London about these sorts of things.
00:37:51
Speaker
just to connect and support each other, but also like even women in Santa Monica, even men in London, there are people who I wouldn't otherwise meet, who I might really be able to create something really wonderful and beautiful, who I would not have met if it weren't for these apps. And I don't mean to lionize them. I don't mean to be like, thank you Tinder for everything. I really don't. I think oftentimes
00:38:17
Speaker
If I do find something awesome, it will be kind of despite these apps, not because of them. But I do think in this age of modern dating, the ability to, and it's difficult, but the ability to go out and try and find someone with whom I might be really, really, really compatible. I don't think that's something that I could have done.
00:38:41
Speaker
15 ish years ago. Does that make sense? So in a way, I'm a little optimistic about it. Does that make sense? Be a lot optimistic about it because we evolve. I don't think we evolve backwards. This is next gen dating and we have to roll with it. It's
00:39:02
Speaker
It's today. It is here and it's only going to get bigger. We're not going back to just dating traditionally offline 100%. There's always going to be a hybrid, I think. There's always going to be a hybrid.
00:39:22
Speaker
The apps, they're still new. The more they evolve, I guess, the better our experience is going to be in the future. And I cannot be ungrateful. I need to send Bumble a thank you card at some point. I did go out with a few very, very decent guys.
00:39:46
Speaker
didn't work out, but we did go out and I had an awesome time and the process I met some really fantastic people. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's the survival of the species. We need to adapt. If we don't adapt, we die. We die spot. We die. We are. Same thing with humanity. We are very adaptable. Yeah. We are. Yeah. That's why, you know, we will survive this as well.
00:40:12
Speaker
Okay. That's beautiful. Okay. Let's, uh, 38 minutes into our podcast. Let's get into the core of this. Let's survive it.
00:40:22
Speaker
I love this survival guide idea that you had. Okay, so let's just get messy and talk about things that you think men ought to understand. And of course, if we want to get into talking about women as well, of course, I'm down for that. But I want to start this off.
Advice for Men on Dating Apps
00:40:40
Speaker
I want to kind of like straw man an argument because I think your response to it will be very instructive.
00:40:48
Speaker
But I think I would say there are many men who feel like women have it so much better on the dating apps, right? Because especially if you're a quote-unquote young, quote-unquote pretty woman on the dating apps, men feel like, oh, you've got a thousand options. You've got a thousand guys who are trying to chat with you.
00:41:09
Speaker
That must be so nice. You can certainly find love very easily. And it's unfair because I don't have that. And that makes me sort of despair. Because when I open the app, I have very, very few matches. I have very, very few likes. And for me, the process is slowly, patiently and vigilantly, like constantly checking the thing to see if there's someone that I need to like jump on that conversation. Because if I don't seize that moment, she's going to move on to one of the next 10,000 guys. So that is, I think,
00:41:41
Speaker
a perspective that some men can have about the dating apps. So I wanted to pass that to you. Where is that right? Where is that wrong? How do you feel? How do you feel? Let's start there. Okay, so cannot 100% be true. Okay, because that doesn't happen. That
00:41:57
Speaker
I don't think it happens. Yes, it happens sometimes, but it's not in continuity. It's not a constant thing. And also, if there were that many men with such great gain, with sophisticated, I would say, style on interacting with women online, then we would all be offline.
00:42:27
Speaker
dating them. They're not other. I haven't had the opportunity to interact with any of those guys yet. There is, I guess, fear of rejection, I would say prevails. It's the number one reason why we
00:42:52
Speaker
We're not very generous with how we compliment people online or how we approach them. There is fear, I guess, confines us in our ways, how we interact with a person that is on the screen across the world. Or across town, you know, yeah. Or across town, indeed.
00:43:19
Speaker
We think that there's a lot of people think there's definitely something better than themselves out there. But in the meantime, you can be wonderful for you. Take you as an example. I doubt that you would make major mistakes when you reach out to a woman on the apps. I doubt it.
00:43:40
Speaker
You're very kind and respectful and you would jump on the opportunity to ask that woman out, which is what men don't necessarily do. My role is if I match with somebody and he asks me out, I'm going to go out.
00:44:01
Speaker
It's as simple as that, because I am here to date, and I think most women do that. Yes, of course, then you have some women that want to get to know you a little bit better first, but what better way to get to know somebody than going out and date with them.
00:44:20
Speaker
Yes, I would say the rules of the game are simple. You must with somebody reach out and she can reach out as well, right? This is happening. We modern women, we have spread our wings and we take initiative often, I would say.
00:44:44
Speaker
But let's say, let's talk about men. Reach out, say hi, find something to compliment here on. And it's a small thing. I mean, women, we definitely have more pictures online than you. So if find something that you like about here, you much. So you must, there must be a few things you like about here to say, oh, you have a wonderful smile. Let's go out and make each other laugh.
00:45:11
Speaker
Next Friday, Saturday, whenever you busy.
00:45:15
Speaker
Some mistakes that we all make online is that when we actually do that and we ask somebody out, we want to do it at a very convenient time. Something, and with you as an exception, because I know you prefer to go out to take, to invest on your dates. You do conscious dating with intention. So not a lot of men do that.
00:45:43
Speaker
they will want to go out with you straight after work for a quick drink maybe so they have they get you know see if you you know if how well you get on and if that but it's also an easy way in and out as well so you have to be a little bit more intentional about things and be ready to make
00:46:13
Speaker
a little bit to put the effort in. I matched with somebody a while back on the apps. So it's a really nice person. And we didn't manage to meet for two months. And when we were actually ready to meet up, he did say, OK, we split the distance because we live about an hour away.
00:46:42
Speaker
We can do that, but you don't have to say that. Why don't you say, oh, instead of saying, oh, we live so far away, let's meet somewhere in the middle. Why don't you say instead, you know what, I know a fantastic bar in town, city center, and I think you're gonna love, they make the best cocktails, let's meet there.
00:47:09
Speaker
problem solved. And it's an elegant way of, yes, articulating a reality of the reality of there is distance we live in, you know, in big, huge cities. So be a little bit thoughtful about what you say, a little bit, it's more the small things that make that make a big difference. So
00:47:38
Speaker
Be intentional, ask them out. Don't, hello, yeah, and it's fine. Let's debunk that. You meet somebody in real life, okay. How are you gonna greet them? Hi, hello, I'm Scott. Place to meet you, lovely meeting you.
00:47:55
Speaker
There is nothing wrong with that. Okay, let's take the stress of the opening line away. Say whatever you want. It's not the first line that matters. It's what you say after that. Open with anything.
00:48:11
Speaker
It is a normal, you are speaking to a normal everyday person. And that's how we interact. We say, we do the small talk before we do the big talk. So Jess, it's fine. You want to say, hi, hello, how are you doing? Absolutely fine. It's what you say after. That makes all the difference. And then you have to cut to the chase. And that is gender fluid advice, I think.
00:48:38
Speaker
okay we need to be more intentional chris okay there's there's so much in there um you you've sort of just like described so much about like from the swiping to everything from the swiping to the first date sort of journey which which is a process you know um i would love to can we just like start at the top yes because i there's so much in there that i love and that and actually there's a there's a lot
00:49:07
Speaker
There's a lot in what you're saying that I actually do differently, but I'm very curious to know, I'm very curious to investigate that.
00:49:18
Speaker
Okay, at the top, top, top. So can we go even further than the top? Can we go back to profile creation? Oh my God, yes, that's important. Let's talk about that. Right? Because earlier you were saying when you're on an app, even while you're not using your phone, your profile is still out there. I don't want to say talking to, but in a way you are still interacting with
00:49:43
Speaker
men who are looking at your profile and trying to figure out, oh, is there something here where I think maybe there's a possibility, right? So, right, the profile is of course important. Yeah, so is there anything or what advice do you have for men in creating a profile? Or maybe what things have you seen? Well, let's stay positive. What trends, what things do you notice
00:50:11
Speaker
that men do that are green flags to you or that catch your eye and make you more likely to want to chat with this stranger from the internet. Okay. So it is, you are marketing yourself for success, but the thing to keep in mind is your profile needs to be as close to reality as possible. Right.
00:50:40
Speaker
full pictures of yourself so yes have close-up pictures but have also include pictures that we can see the whole of you okay and information about yourself and trying to avoid i think the the time when um
00:51:05
Speaker
It was called to have pictures on your profiles where you caught the huge fish or you are doing skydiving or you
00:51:17
Speaker
I mean, this is, is it reality? If you don't go bungee jumping every other week, don't portray yourself like the third devil you portray yourself to be. Don't do that. If, what do you like doing? Do you like hanging out with your family? Pictures with your family? That is something that is representative of you. Are you a happy person? Are you an optimist? Have pictures of you smiling or out with your friends?
00:51:45
Speaker
I see a lot of profiles online and I am trying to find a single picture where they smile.
00:51:55
Speaker
can't find it really yeah what what do you you put yourself out there you that's you know you're advertising so what you're telling me is you're grumpy are you grumpy no you're not probably you're so such a you know nice positive person but represent it's it's a visual representation of yourself so
00:52:21
Speaker
I would personally say avoid topless pictures. I know you guys, you... Those are big muscles, yeah. It shows, it shows. If you exercise a simple picture of you, like, you know, normal one, you keep topless pictures, obviously don't matter, but let it not be a selfie at the gym when you lift weights. Okay. No, maybe not.
00:52:49
Speaker
And because this is not you, this is what you do. Another thing, men, this is so common with men. They say what they're looking for. Dude, this is not your...
00:53:07
Speaker
grocery supermarket list. I am looking for a woman who is this, who's that, who loves dogs, who the latest one I loved, who is not a creationist. Okay. And I'm like, that's every religion under the sun. But anyway, like so specific.
00:53:32
Speaker
Because you portray yourself to be a negative person, because that's all you see. You see negativity. So you say what you don't want. Don't say what you want or don't want. It narrows down, even if I have all of these threats. But let's say, I'm not that active at the gym. I'm going to...
00:53:58
Speaker
nice guy, but maybe he meet somebody else who's like really passionate about lifting weights. Bye-bye. That's not me. Try to talk about who you are. And a lot of people don't know who they are. They give information about what they do.
00:54:22
Speaker
And being active, it's the best example because a lot of guys say that they won't live twice. They go to the gym five or six times a week. Well done. Good for you. And they think that's living an active lifestyle. And they say, oh, I live an active lifestyle because I go to the gym five times a week. And I'm looking for somebody who does the same. Let's be clear. Going to the gym five times a week,
00:54:50
Speaker
is not you having an active lifestyle at all. It's you exercising five times a week. That is not an active lifestyle at all. An active lifestyle in reality. I feel attacked, Chrissa, but no, I can't listen.
00:55:06
Speaker
No, you can claim that if you actually have interest. If you go to the gym, it's fine. Say disclose it, but don't think you live an active lifestyle because of that. It's a misrepresentation of yourself because chances are you think you live an active lifestyle, but at the end of the day, what most men do. Let me summarize it for you.
00:55:32
Speaker
go to the gym three times a week and play play stays or whatever it is I don't know they watch Netflix they hang out with their friends and they they play the occasional sport that's the life of a guy of the average guy and then you have the act the actual active lifestyles when
00:55:51
Speaker
the guy went to the theater this week. Okay, he actually met like you're gonna do for brats with their friends. And then they went to a lecture or then they went cycle with their friends. And then they actually live an active lifestyle. They went and cook to with a friend at the friend's house. Active lifestyle is that you remain active. Everything else is that you exercise. Yeah.
00:56:22
Speaker
So. Well, OK, can I zoom out a little bit? Oh, sorry, I was a little bit because I hear what you're saying. So.
00:56:31
Speaker
Okay, what I'm hearing is in what you're describing is it can be difficult for a man to sort of paint a clear picture of who he is. And in this specific case with like the gym and active lifestyle, like active, the term active lifestyle might mean something different to a woman online than it does to you. Like maybe to some men active lifestyle means I'd go to the gym three days a week. And I don't know, maybe to some women,
00:56:58
Speaker
That also means active lifestyle, but it sounds like to you active lifestyle, the term means going out, interacting with people, having variety in what you do.
Authenticity in Dating Profiles
00:57:07
Speaker
But I'm interested sort of, if that's right, if I'm kind of in the ballpark, I want to zoom out a little bit because to me, a big challenge, something that I am still struggling with, but a big thing that I had to work on early when I started using the dating apps was this whole project of representing myself on a dating app, right? It is digital marketing, right? And
00:57:33
Speaker
I've worked on this for a long time. I've got a podcast about this, and I still feel like I'm bad at it. I hear what you're saying early on in this section. You talked about how reality, you want to respect reality, you want to portray something that is really you, and I agree with that. If I'm going to meet someone who's really into me,
00:57:58
Speaker
Right. I need to give, I need to do my very best to give them some idea of who I really am. But would you, would just to say, I don't want to misrepresent, right? I don't want to put a bunch of bungee jumping pictures. If I'm not super, if I went bungee jumping once, I probably don't need that picture of my profile because like, it's not a thing I do a lot. And if you're like, you know, if you're, if you're staunchly anti bungee jumping, we're probably still a match, right? But if that's my second picture, right. Um,
00:58:26
Speaker
I guess I want to highlight two things here. A, the difficulty of representing myself online. Honestly, I think men are much worse at this than women. I don't want to put a pin in this. We're equally bad. Don't worry about that. I'm sure you know. Okay, that's interesting. You see the profiles. We're equally bad.
00:58:48
Speaker
in different ways. A, there's the sheer difficulty of the task. Represent yourself, a complex, nuanced human being with years of experience in life and represent that in four pictures and some text. That's one difficulty. The other difficulty is I do think there's a pressure. It is, in a way, social media. I do think there's a pressure for me to
00:59:16
Speaker
say that I do more than play PlayStation, watch Netflix, eat food with my friends. In some ways, if I just put my social Google calendar on my profile, I'm a little afraid that I would seem really, really boring, right? Because I have the same friends. The things that I like, I do those things a lot. In a way, I think the creating a profile process can be very stressful because
00:59:43
Speaker
when I sit down and try to paint a picture of who I am, I think there's a part of me that feels like, oh no, I am nowhere near as interesting as these other silver fox dudes in front of their yachts on Raya. You know what I mean? I sort of compare myself or whatever the dating app is. It doesn't need to be Raya. That's just a funny example. You know what I mean? Is it comforting at all to know, and this is for all men, but would come across this podcast,
01:00:12
Speaker
On Raya, I've seen profiles of men, celebrities, huge athletes, that they're still single. And they have entire teams of people that help the market themselves. But this is, I guess, the one thing that they do by themselves without any help.
01:00:39
Speaker
And they're so terrible at it. And if you wouldn't recognize them, you would have definitely swiped left or hit the X button. So it is not you, it's not me, it's universal. I think women, we have a little bit of more experience with brand management because obviously,
01:01:07
Speaker
We have more options when it comes to outfits, makeup, hairstyle, nail style, shoes. With you guys, what can I say? It's like the work uniform. If you wear a suit at work and then jeans, t-shirt, that's it, it's naked. Bye, Dan. That's it. And so we do have a little bit of more experience with brand management.
01:01:34
Speaker
we overdo it. I think a lot of women misrepresent ourselves big time filters and all of that, blah, blah. I'm not going to go into because we're talking about men. And men do their best, even like
01:01:52
Speaker
the greatest of all time, that they are out there, they are on Raya, for example, looking for love, and I found it weird, and they don't know how to navigate the apps, and they have the same problems as you have. So, one thing, it's ideal, I think, from my opinion, from my perspective, it's only my opinion, just,
01:02:19
Speaker
Say what you like to do that makes you a human being. What do you do? You love spending time with your friends. You love having activities with your friends. You love going on brunch. That's fantastic. Put that on your profile. We women love brunch.
01:02:38
Speaker
If you have kids, say you love spending time with your kids, or nieces, nephews, I like watching sports. Do you know what? If I know that somebody, I love basketball, watching basketball, not playing, okay, let's make that. If I see that somebody loves watching, I would love that.
01:03:01
Speaker
Yeah. Because you know you have something you can do together. We can do that together. Not like, you know, if you don't, then that's an issue. But what do you love to do?
01:03:13
Speaker
And if, of course, if going to the gym and building a muscle is your thing and you enjoy that, absolutely put it out there. You enjoy watching movies, sitcoms, going to the cinema, trying new restaurants. You must have a favorite food. Put it out there. Can you cook? Yes, because this is...
01:03:39
Speaker
This is you. You give people the blueprint of who you are, essentially. If you love your job, put it up. Add it. I don't see people talking about their jobs much, only to say that they're a co-founder, an entrepreneur, a director of some sort, a CEO,
01:04:01
Speaker
Okay, first of all, not everyone can be a CEO or a founder or entrepreneur or whatever. Talk about, say, I'm passionate about my job because I love managing people or I love finding solutions to problems.
01:04:18
Speaker
And that way, I know that when we go out, or in the long run, you're not going to be moaning about your job constantly, you love it. And this is very important to people to know because a big percentage of what you do throughout the day fulfills you know, I mean, come on, no, yeah, you know, 100%. But to a certain extent, it at least it doesn't make you
01:04:43
Speaker
Miserable. I don't want to go out with miserable guy who's going to moan about his job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about, and we'll, we'll wrap up the, there's so much we can talk about for all of us, but we can, we can wrap up about profiles. Um, but what do you think about, I hear what you're saying, um, in terms of saying what you like, saying what you're like, like I hear a lot of like, um, specificity is good, right? Like saying.
01:05:11
Speaker
Positively saying this is a thing that I like showing in pictures. This is a thing that I like What what do you how do you feel about guys profiles and I'm talking about me here really? but I think I think in my profiles I tend to try and Communicate my values. I try to I try to say things that show What I enjoy Scott here we are Here we are
01:05:36
Speaker
So it's not despite that. If you have somebody who's saying, I do or don't want children, or I value quality time with my romantic partner, or love languages, that kind of thing.
01:05:50
Speaker
I am, because I am, I'm very liberal, right? Politically, I'm pretty liberal. That is important. Put it out there. These days, politics is very like values-based, right? Especially on your side of the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not so much here.
01:06:07
Speaker
You're so lucky. It sounds like that's something that you appreciate and would advise me to do. Absolutely. Yes. I think a profile works. It is close to reality. You volunteer the information that you don't want kids.
01:06:31
Speaker
That is a very personal thing. I think that, is this something that you want the whole world to know? And if dating is just all about you, then it should be irrelevant, that piece of information. To me, that doesn't matter, personally. That's interesting.
01:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, I see what I see where you're coming from. There's a lot of there are I think for a lot of women that one does matter. Yeah, which is fair. Like I don't I'm not judging anybody for that. But I that's something that I like specifically the kids thing. That's something that I put out there. You know, because I'm trying to find somebody who is looking for
01:07:13
Speaker
a similar life together or has similar like no one's going to be exactly what I couldn't even describe to you exactly what the ideal connection for me would look like.
01:07:25
Speaker
If somebody out, if having children is a really big life goal for a woman, we're not a good match. And I don't want to waste your time, right? No, no, makes sense. Makes sense. Okay. How are you doing on time? Because as I'm doing, we would... I'm fine. Okay. I'm traveling for work tomorrow, so I'm not doing nothing. Oh, exciting. I'm going away for a couple of days. So yeah, today is all about me and you obviously.
01:07:51
Speaker
Amazing, amazing. Well, I appreciate that so much. Okay, so profile. Can we talk about kind of swiping and or like the swiping to chatting phase, you know, like what we chat? Yeah, yeah, chat openers or well,
01:08:14
Speaker
Okay, do you have any advice for men on like the swiping process? Like who do you say yes to? Do you send those like pay for money, super roses, whatever you call them? Like, do you care about that stuff? Or do you, how do you experience that as a woman who I know gets a fair amount of inbound attention on the dating apps? So yes, the answer is simple. If you like the guy, everything is welcome. If you don't,
01:08:44
Speaker
And you wouldn't know that. But it's as simple as that. There was a guy not only a week ago, just literally physically stopped me in the middle of the street. I was going out. And he said, I love you so much. I want to kiss you. I'm like, what is going on? I'm being punked here.
01:09:12
Speaker
the bottom line is and then obviously he tried he tried to say thank you very much with a smile right i don't want to shatter anyone's confidence and i appreciate that there's still men that can do that a little bit too much but the i i thought about it as i left him and i'm like if that guy was
01:09:35
Speaker
hotter guy I would have at least given him my Instagram minimum because he asked for it obviously right I wouldn't volunteer it and it's as simple as that but who I find attractive that is not objective who you find attractive so and do your thing do whatever feels right at the moment don't overthink it right it's just
01:10:07
Speaker
We are in the process of eventually mating. And this is exciting, can be exciting. If you want to be generous with somebody, do it. If they don't like it, they don't like it. Don't overthink. Don't overthink. And just be a little bit more open-minded.
01:10:30
Speaker
when it comes to fighting women attractive. It's not just the young and pretty ones that that's only 10-15% of the population across the world. So we need to be inclusive here a little bit. We need to be inclusive.
01:10:51
Speaker
and so just be a little bit open-minded if you want to buy the extra you know the extras left and right do it enjoy it be as generous as you want to be that is fine and we do the same we do the same
01:11:08
Speaker
How do you mean? We do the same. If we can easily upgrade, then we can easily pay for extra services. It goes both ways. It's better when they make money from both genders. Let's look out for the poor dating app companies here. Make sure they're doing okay. No, I hear you though.
01:11:30
Speaker
Also, age seems to be a huge issue with men. Like they say, height is a big thing with men. Not everyone they want to disclose how tall or short they are, which is also fine. Fine, guys, don't confine yourself in what you think people think.
01:11:55
Speaker
I would say that there's a big percentage of women that they don't care as long as you fit the bill on various other stuff. Height, I think, matters when you don't have anything else to offer, then you have to at least have that, right? So with men, I think they're a little bit ageist.
01:12:21
Speaker
Especially men your age, I would say the younger they are, the less ageist they are. But with men your age, you are absolute ageist, 100%. So you wouldn't easily swipe right. You would think twice about swipe, clicking the card button. I don't know whatever up it is. Right, right, right, right. So then how do you feel about
01:12:51
Speaker
Okay. So the ageism question is interesting, right? Because I think that sort of connects to like age gap relationships, right? Like I think I would say, so I would say in general, we live in a society that sees men as valuable when they're successful and that sees women as valuable when they're attractive. And attractive in Western society for women usually means young, right? And
01:13:15
Speaker
I think, I mean, there's so much to not like in that status quo. But I do think that it just seems to me like more societally acceptable. It seems more common to have age gap relationships where the man is a little older to a lot older. And I think by a lot, I would say like,
01:13:40
Speaker
10 years to me to my to my sensibility is a big big age gap. There are certainly like actually this is like recently a thing on the Internet like the dating discourse. Some woman somewhere wrote some article about an age gap relationship and all of the Internet's shared their opinions about this. I'm not super online, but like I heard about this happening. But it's a thing, right? It's a topic of conversation. It is, I think, a cultural
01:14:06
Speaker
conversation that we're kind of navigating and people have their different takes on it. So I would be interested in yours, right? Because if we're okay with age gap relationships, then I think we can expect to see ageism. And you're right, we can expect to see that ageism as we're swiping. Does that make sense? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
01:14:33
Speaker
I speak from the experience of both myself and the experience that my friends have and the feedback that I get. This has become a common thing. They don't want to go back on the apps because you know, we yo-yo. Use them. We go- You use them intensely for a while, then you delete them for a while, and then you-
01:14:59
Speaker
install them again and you get back to it. That's the yo-yo. That's it. That is exactly it. They don't want to go back on the app because they think that their age is a thing. If you're 38, 40, 40 plus, I think women think that their age is an issue and they shouldn't be.
01:15:22
Speaker
I think we are changing that, and progressively you will see relationships between women and younger men, because the reverse scenario, we've seen it, oh my God, for millennia, I guess. Yeah, for sure, yeah. And now it's the time that we change our perspectives about that as well. So yes, be less...
01:15:53
Speaker
It's a big word. I don't want to use it, but more inclusive. I hear you. I hear you. I do. I do. And we need to do the same with height or I don't know. I guess body size. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, so women.
01:16:16
Speaker
in like the online discourse or whatever. You hear people talk about how women are looking for 666, right? Six feet tall, six figure income and six inches. That's what they're looking for. That's so many myths here we need to debug. That's for a different episode. Okay, yeah. God, I hope that's a myth, but like, yeah, yeah, yeah. How many misconceptions are there? It's impossible to be
01:16:44
Speaker
I think, and this is another rabbit hole, but I think a lot of the misconceptions here that, and let's get back to debunking those, but I think a lot of the misconceptions do come from social media where it's like the worst or the most controversial concepts.
01:16:57
Speaker
get a lot of airplay because they're controversial, because the algorithm is raising it to you. And it's not because it's true. It's not because it's representative. It's because it's spicy and it spawns conversation, which is good for the social media platform. Scott, do you have any female friends? I have many. I'm sure you do. You have many. Okay. So, I mean, open
01:17:22
Speaker
Ah, have these conversations with your girlfriends. Have them. They're important to hear their perspective. And we are very vocal. Oh my God. I wish my friends were less welcome about this kind of stuff.
01:17:39
Speaker
I have an entire podcast based on that entire principle. Honestly, for this pod, I do try to have conversations that I think will benefit men who are trying to date. But honestly, usually when I find someone who wants to talk about this stuff, it's a woman. Men, we're not as good as opening up about that. So no, I agree with you. I definitely agree with you. Talking to women about dating has been huge. This is a general advice for men.
01:18:11
Speaker
positive. It's a good thing in life to have some female friends. And when in doubt, pick up the phone and ask about anything. Us women, we do it. I'm done with that. I've had so many girl tats in my life. I don't want to have another one. I'm experiencing a girl tat burnout.
01:18:33
Speaker
But you guys have those conversations because I understand sometimes it's very difficult for you to get into the details with your guy friends. Pick up a phone, call a girlfriend, ask the questions, ask her to vet your profile online and ask for feedback. Ask a friend, would you date me?
01:19:01
Speaker
I love asking people that question, my friends. And I don't want them asking it back. Ask the question. Ask, what can I do better? What they know. You will be so surprised about the information they have on us. And how easy it is to volunteer it. Should you ask?
01:19:28
Speaker
Yeah. So, okay. I think this is tricky and I've done this with my friends, right?
Genuine Messaging Strategies
01:19:32
Speaker
I do think this is good advice in general, like show your profile to your friends. It can feel so vulnerable. It can feel so, it is vulnerable, right? Yeah.
01:19:43
Speaker
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, your friends know you, and crucially, they can try to tell you if your profile seems like you, because remember that the difficulty of representing yourself in a profile is very real, and your friends
01:20:06
Speaker
know you as from the outside. So they can tell you this feels like you or Scott, this feels really douchey. You don't know why you have a yacht picture. I love it. You know what I mean? Or Scott, you're missing the Dungeons and Dragons side of your personality, which I think is really important. So make sure you get a picture of you playing nerdy games. But the other side of asking your friends, I think,
01:20:30
Speaker
Is that your friends? When my friends see a picture of me, their minds know me. They see me and they go, oh yeah, that's Scott. And they're my friends, so they love me. So when they see a picture of me, they automatically read into the picture or the words. My friends will read text that I've written, and they will hear it in my voice because they know me.
01:20:55
Speaker
know what I'm saying? And so sometimes I think it's tricky because it's really hard to get a sense of how your profile will seem to a stranger. And maybe that's impossible. Maybe there's just no way to predict because strangers are all, of course, going to be so very different and bring to the table their own
01:21:18
Speaker
preconceptions and their own way of browsing people on the internet or whatever. Maybe it's just impossible. But does that make sense? Those are two things that I've always struggled with in terms of getting outside help or support for making your profile. Does that make sense? Well, there's no harm in asking. Ask. It's an audience and they will understand the task. They know that
01:21:45
Speaker
We're not talking about you as Scott, the friend, but this is dating up. So Scott, the potential boyfriend. They know. They know. Okay. I like that. It's good to have input, I think. And because, oh my God, yeah, I've seen it with my friends' profiles. The misrepresentation is from another planet. And I'm like, I saw your profile.
01:22:14
Speaker
You hear it, eh? That really doesn't look like it. I run into especially a bumble here. And when I use it, people I work with, my friends, I run into so many people. And I'm like, no, that ain't gonna work. And obviously it doesn't.
01:22:38
Speaker
So you mean to say that men you know in real life, you can bump into their profile on Bumble or a dating app and you feel like these men are not representing themselves accurately. Yeah. One friend of mine was making a very strong statement about how he's a non-smoker.
01:23:00
Speaker
Darling, I had to text you about them like lies lies lies lies. Oh, he is a smoker
01:23:09
Speaker
He's a social smoker, but he smokes when he drinks. That's it. But don't say you're a non-smoker, because this is England. We drink a lot. You, especially that guy, you're going to go out on a date, you're going to drink, and then you're going to smoke. Don't portray yourself as a radical non-smoker. Don't do that.
01:23:36
Speaker
And also I know him, like his pictures were from a few years ago, something more current, something more, just don't say things that they're not you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good advice. Um, and not something you have a profile, have an actual profile, even if it's two lines, empty profiles, a,
01:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the lower chances of connecting with someone because then you leave it entirely up to your pictures. Yeah. Do you see many men who have no text in their profiles? It's just the majority. Really? Wow. So same, I would offer the same advice to women when I'm swiping on women.
01:24:30
Speaker
Um, if a woman has no, hasn't put any text in there, um, you, to me, it really feels like zero effort. It feels like you're open to, you're not, it feels like you're not really telling me really anything about who you are beyond your pictures. And therefore it seems to me like you're looking for literally any kind of attention on the app.
01:24:54
Speaker
And for me, and hey, maybe this is just different kinds of people looking for each other, but for me, it's, I don't want to say a red flag, but it's very unlikely that I'm going to swipe right. Unless there's a picture or a set of pictures in there where I do get a solid sense of who you are because you're doing something that seems important to you. Like if you're in there and you have that Dungeons and Dragons picture and no text, I'm like, okay, we can talk about Dungeons and Dragons.
01:25:21
Speaker
But that doesn't, I mean, that's extremely rare, right? And yeah, so, okay, so putting text in profiles, yeah, I'm a big fan. I think it's important. I think it shows effort. I think it shows that you're at, I think it shows that you know yourself. If you do know yourself, if you don't know yourself, do you know, work on knowing yourself? We always do that. That's a process. But like, yeah, I think providing information in the profile is important. Okay, so... Control the narrative.
01:25:51
Speaker
control it because then people will make you up in their minds in whatever way they want to. Also, I need to advocate for the people that don't have actual blurs on their profiles. It's very difficult sometimes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:26:17
Speaker
It is not easy. And I think that some people find it uncomfortable. But my advice is get over it. It's three lines, four lines. You don't have to write a novel. That's going to be a bestseller. But just a brief description. Control the narrative. What you say you are. And people would believe it.
01:26:39
Speaker
Yeah. Now, so mine, which I think you saw, I do have a lot in there. I think I have more than most men in terms of the info that I'm putting in the profile. Maybe that's not true. I don't know.
01:26:54
Speaker
Do you remember mine? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I think, yeah, a rough idea. What stands out is that you don't want any kids. I think it was at the bottom of your profile. Right. But for the men who actually have some sort of a bio, I think it's about the same. When you decide to do it, they do it properly. Yeah. Okay.
01:27:22
Speaker
It's a good one. It's a good one, Scott. I wouldn't change it. You're very kind. You're very kind. Okay, so let's go to the next step. Matching and chatting. For this one, can I tell you my strategy for trying to match and sending that first message? Yes. And you can tell me if I'm doing it right or doing it wrong. Let's hear it.
01:27:50
Speaker
Okay, so swiping, right? Trying to choose who I actually want to try to match with. My personal strategy is I only super swipe. I only send the pay a $1.50 or on Raya, it's like instant message or whatever. Well, hear me out.
01:28:13
Speaker
because it does cost money. So it's like a little bit of like, am I really serious about this? Like, is this somebody that I actually want to chat with if they match with me? Because it's just a dollar or whatever, but like, it's not a lot of money. But it is that little barrier. It's a little hurdle that I have to say. I never want to click like on someone.
01:28:35
Speaker
only to see if they like me back. I only want to like somebody if I really have a strong sense that if they like me back, I will want to talk to them. Does it make sense?
01:28:46
Speaker
Yeah. Good strategy. So far, so good. Yeah. So far, that's fantastic. Yeah. Not that many people do that, but yeah, it's. Yeah. The data that I've seen show that men swipe right or click like 50 on 50% of profiles, which to me sounds bananas. I think that's a bad strategy. What I know is that I hope I get this right. Hold on. Where's my phone?
01:29:17
Speaker
I think that men spend more time on profiles and where is it? Okay, here it is. More time making them or more time looking at them? Looking at them. Women swipe 4,000 times over 7.93 months, so almost eight. Men swipe 3,856 times over
01:29:44
Speaker
8.63 months. So you guys take more time by profile than us. Interesting. I mean, yeah. If there are bikini pictures, I get the driver behind it. I get it. I don't know. Interesting. Yeah.
01:30:11
Speaker
Okay. So, so, so, so, okay. So if I do, if I do decide I'm going to like somebody, I do do the super duper thing, whatever. Um, which, you know, I acknowledge like I have a budget for this, right? Like for people that are using the apps, I would advise like set a budget, figure out how much actual money you're going to throw at this thing. Well, okay. Yeah. We can talk about it later if we want to. Um, good strategy. Yeah. Why not?
01:30:35
Speaker
The other reason that I do that is that I do think that the apps have a problem. I do think there is more attention going towards women than the apps can reasonably parse. I do think it is a problem for the apps that there are more men, not all women, but there's a lot of inbound attention for women.
01:31:06
Speaker
I feel, in my experience, I do feel like doing the little super like or whatever does increase my chances of showing up on her phone. And maybe it doesn't guarantee that she'll like me, but I do think that
01:31:19
Speaker
Back when I wasn't paying for this kind of stuff, I do genuinely feel like there were women who just never even saw me because I just never showed up in their queue. Yeah, it's likely to be the case. Yeah. Right. That's a good strategy, Scott. That's my strategy for swiping. Messaging.
01:31:41
Speaker
And I'd be interested to hear your take on this. When I do the little super duper swipe or whatever, for some apps you have the option to send a message with your first little hi hello.
01:31:53
Speaker
I very rarely do that. I usually wait until we match to send my first bit of text. Very rarely. If there's something that it's so interesting, or there's something that I know I can talk about, or I feel like I've got something from her profile that I'm genuinely interested in talking about, I might send that in the first message.
01:32:20
Speaker
just because it seems like oh you like if you're a woman in your profile and you've put something out there that shows something about you and I think I've picked up on that and I think that's something that I want to talk about I might with my first message reach out and say like oh my gosh I super enjoyed that book series also it was such a it was such a trip what happened to this character you know like I would open with something that
01:32:44
Speaker
Well, we'll get into messaging, but very rarely will I send an opening message. I will usually just send the super like and hope that we match. Does it make sense so far? Can't present. All good so far. No red flags.
01:33:00
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay. Do you notice or do you care when you're receiving, when you're going through the app or whatever, do you notice or do you care if men send you like a super like or if men send you like an opening message before you even match? Is that even on your radar? Yeah, listen, everything matters.
01:33:27
Speaker
I appreciate the effort and I appreciate that they very openly want to go a little bit above the regularities on the app. I do appreciate that. Again, all comes down to if I like them. If I like them, if I like what I see.
01:33:51
Speaker
they can just have them a ridiculous opener and I will happily continue the conversation. And if not so much, I will let it die. That's it. But they will have to be really, really
01:34:14
Speaker
different for me to be extra, you know, dismissive. I don't want to put it that way, but we, we are in a sense. Well, okay. Hang on. When you say they have to be really different, like, so if someone sends you something or, well, okay. So what I'm hearing is like, if you, if you, so you get a message, you see a profile. If you like what you see, you're clicking match. Um, uh, and if it's not for you, you're letting it go.
01:34:43
Speaker
It's kind of the simple, okay. That's a reality of it, yes. Okay, okay, okay.
01:34:52
Speaker
Okay. Then can we, can we, can we go to the next step talking about like first
First Message Challenges
01:34:55
Speaker
messages? Cause this is a big thing for guys, you know, um, but maybe, maybe it's maybe it shouldn't be, but, but, but, okay. So for guys, we feel like it really feels like there's a lot of pressure sending that first message because it feels like there are so many ways you can go wrong. And it really feels like you're shooting in the dark because you are trying to say something that will grab her attention.
01:35:22
Speaker
and you know almost nothing about this person. You're trying to say something that will get her to want to talk to you and what you know about her are four pictures and her little profile where she says you must love dogs. You know what I mean? I think for a lot of men this can be a very
01:35:44
Speaker
This can be a big barrier because it really, it feels vulnerable. It feels like you're putting yourself out there. And honestly, I, when I've sent a first message, I probably get a response. Honestly, 25% of the 25 to 10% of the time. Okay. This is a very good statistic. I would say. Data, right? We love data. So here's my strategy. Let me tell you my strategy for sending a first message and you can tell me what you think.
01:36:13
Speaker
So I, okay, so I will usually only try to match with women who have something in their profile or who give me some kind of idea of who they are. Like even a super gorgeous woman with the bikini pic and the beautiful evening gown and whatever, you know, very, very, very physically attractive, that woman with no like content in her profile or no like sense in her pictures of who she is or what she's into, I will usually not
01:36:42
Speaker
click like on her because I have nothing to say to open, right? So if I've matched with someone, and I try to stick to this, but like if I've matched with someone, it means I saw something in her profile that I thought was a green flag or that I thought was a chance that she and I might connect. So in my opening message, I do, I have like a system for this. I have like a philosophy about this. I will try and say something to her that
01:37:12
Speaker
And this is my guide. I try to say something to her that demonstrates that I've read her profile and demonstrates that we have some kind of common interest. It doesn't have to be a huge thing, but some small thing that we could theoretically talk about. Yeah, so I've read your profile. I'm saying something to you about your profile that I think we have in common.
01:37:33
Speaker
I am keeping it short, I'm making it easy to read, and I'm asking you a question that is easy to respond to. And the final thing is I'm thinking like an email spammer. I will almost always put in the front of my... Because some messages, depending on the app, will show you the first
01:37:57
Speaker
three or four words of the message when you're looking at your inbox, right? So I will always put at the front of my messages, like a little emoji that is like related to the topic. Like if she's into horseback riding, I will put like a little horse emoji or something. Ah, cute, cute, cute. Well, I'm thinking like an email spammer. I'm thinking like somebody who wants to make sure that my message
01:38:22
Speaker
will stand out when you're scrolling through the however many new messages you have. I'm joking and saying that it's like an email scammer or spammer. And I'd be interested to know if you think I'm getting it wrong, but I think that men sometimes make the mistake of thinking that women
01:38:49
Speaker
get as many messages as we do or they have only a very few options, right? And then I think men often think that like a woman will read my message, right? Where I don't know that that's always the case. I think sometimes- We read all of them, 100%. You read all of them? Yes. I mean, who do- I mean,
01:39:08
Speaker
It's not like you are sending a private message to Taylor Swift's Instagram account. Which I should try. I should definitely try. Yes, with an email spammer mentality approach. There is what? It is reality.
01:39:30
Speaker
And then there is the reality in your head. You think, stop thinking about that. Why, what makes you think we are all there because we are looking for the right person. Your strategy so far, continue. I don't want to interrupt. I want to hear the whole thing. Go ahead, go ahead. We'll come back to that. What do you do next? So right. So I will, right. I want to say, I want it to catch your eye.
01:39:55
Speaker
I want it to be short and easy to read. I want it to make her smile or laugh. And I want to ask a question that I think she can easily answer and that she'll be interested to answer. That's my goal. That's not easy to do, but that's usually my goal when I'm sending a first message. And that's why you have such a good response, right? I think the strategy is good.
01:40:25
Speaker
Okay. I mean, when we say good response rate, I want to be clear. I probably match. Well, I know. I know that I match less than 1% of the time. I match with less than 1% of the women that I click like on.
01:40:40
Speaker
for message responses, I probably get a message back from, yeah, 10 to 25%. Very low. That's good. That is good. I think, yeah, yeah, I totally think so. I mean,
01:40:59
Speaker
10 to 25% response rate is a very good rate. I think that your strategy is flawless. Keep doing what you're doing. I would say what I would potentially how I would enrich it, maybe, you know,
01:41:15
Speaker
and compliment the existing flawless strategy already, I would say what I would add is something. Why are we all on the apps? Because we're looking for that person who is going to make us feel special. So how do you very easily make somebody feel special? By saying it. Just say all of that, course emoji,
01:41:43
Speaker
Dragons and what? You and no no gamers here and that whatever all of that strategy flows I think there's something special about you. I think you're marvelously interesting.
Making Others Feel Special
01:42:03
Speaker
I hope that, let's say not everyone is on the apps all the time before a match expires, you can say, oh my God, was I about to lose you? What an idiot. Sorry for taking so long to try to make that person special. And they obviously you put the effort and you already make them feel special, but it means that
01:42:34
Speaker
Oh my God, he thinks I'm special. If I get a really nice message like that, it will absolutely put a smile on my face straight away. And that guy increases his chances of getting an reply.
01:42:52
Speaker
It goes both ways. Scott, we send messages and that go unanswered. 100%. And we swipe right or click the little hard part and then, no. I'm telling you, you can be the hottest man or hottest woman on earth.
01:43:15
Speaker
I see them, they're out there, they're single.
Double Texting Etiquette
01:43:19
Speaker
They are literally single. And it's mind-blowing. It's because we all have the same insecurities that come with the fact that we are humans. We are just plain people, rich, poor, beautiful, not so beautiful,
01:43:44
Speaker
tall, short, big, small, anything. We come with a set of insecurities and we all want to feel that we are special at least to some people's eyes. It's a good strategy. Keep doing what you're doing and it's good that you put it out there for men to know that yes, there are men who actually make the effort and don't just say, hi, hello, bye-bye.
01:44:13
Speaker
Which, it's fine. If that's your approach, that's fine. This is how you meet people in real life by saying hello. A little compliment here and there will, you know, get you to the next stage of a conversation. And don't get, you know, disappointed if that person doesn't respond. Why not second text?
01:44:39
Speaker
Double text. There's no wrong. It's not a bad thing to do. Go ahead, do it. Do it. Why not? I want to put a pin in that, because I want to go back. But second texting is a great topic. OK, so make her feel special. I really love that. Can I ask, though, in your experience, in your opinion, I've heard, and this is something that I try to keep in mind, I've heard that it's not a good idea to try and compliment someone on something physical.
Physical Compliments in Messages
01:45:09
Speaker
in a first message, or even very early when you're chatting on the app. That's a great fantastic beginning. Right, right. Or even anything at all. Even if I see someone and I don't know, I know what I'd like. If a woman has an amazing makeup game and her eyes look wonderful in that one wedding picture, whatever. I can tell
01:45:35
Speaker
know what I mean? I can tell what catches my eye. But if it's something I will never compliment a woman on something physical, or at least in the past, I have never complimented a woman on something physical in the early chat phase of matching. Well, my understanding is because she gets a lot of that already and
01:46:00
Speaker
while I am someone who appreciates and is attracted to a woman with a strong sense of, I would say, femininity. That's a loaded word, right? But I do. I appreciate, well, I know what I appreciate in someone's physical appearance. I try to put effort into my physical appearance just with what I wear and I don't know. But
01:46:22
Speaker
Whatever. Which is to say, what am I saying? It is a value I have. I do appreciate someone who puts effort into physical appearance. I would say I do that as well, but it's never something that I open up with in a dating app. I guess what I mean to say is even though it is a value that I hold, even though it is a part of attraction for me,
01:46:45
Speaker
which I think is kind of obvious, but maybe not for everybody, but I will never, I will never say, um, Oh my God, Krista, your hair in that picture looked, looked absolutely amazing in the sun. That was so cool on your profile, right? Like I would, I would, I would find something about like, um, Oh, what, what, you know, what the picture in Munich, how was that? I don't know. I would try to find something not about your appearance to talk about. Am I right? Am I wrong? In your opinion, what do you think?
01:47:13
Speaker
And it depends what in my appearance we were talking about here. Lisa, you can tell a girl you have an amazing smile. I genuinely love when I see men's smiles on pictures. Nice, big.
01:47:32
Speaker
wholesome smile, like genuine. That's fine. A hair, I mean, I get that a lot. You've seen my hair. But it's not over. I hear that a lot. Still, it matters. Yeah, I know it. I have mirrors. You do the work. You do the conditioning and the shampoo and you get it. Yeah, yeah. I know of it.
01:48:01
Speaker
It's good to hear sometimes. And also Scott, I want to alert you to a reality that men are not aware of. We men
01:48:14
Speaker
We don't get complimented that often, as often as you think. This is a misconception. It's the same when, what do you guys think about when you want to talk to us at the bar? Do you know I have friends that they complain to me? Beautiful, gorgeous friends. No one speaks to them at bars. I have friends who never had that experience. And what do you think when you go to a bar?
01:48:41
Speaker
Oh, I see this cute girl. Ah, why bother? She's been there. She's done that. How am I different? No, chances are it hasn't happened to her in a while.
01:48:56
Speaker
So be that man, be that guy, and vice versa, ladies, if you're out there, if you see someone you like, go speak to him, say something nice, be nice. This is democracy in dating these days. So kill, kill the misconceptions.
01:49:18
Speaker
Yeah. Compliment people and be nice. Yes. Don't say, oh my God, that picture of you, that bikini is bad if you want to be more aggressive. If that's your style, even say it. Women, some women appreciate that. Obviously you have to be sort of yourself on those up. If machismo top
01:49:47
Speaker
Top alpha male kind of stuff is your thing. Yeah, you cannot be gentle and tender, but you have to know who you're speaking to. Right. So if there's some dude out there who wants to type nice boobs and maybe there's a woman out there who's looking to hear, that's who she's waiting for. She's going to get that message and she's going to say, I finally found the one. I don't know.
Authenticity and Self-Presentation
01:50:11
Speaker
maybe not in those words exactly but you can say you use femininity you are my absolute you know ideal human she will know she put those boobs out there for a reason come on come on she knows it there are so many ways to say like exactly what you want to say but say it in just a different way
01:50:39
Speaker
That's interesting. So what I want to... Is it just that...
01:50:49
Speaker
you should say something that is true to yourself, whatever you're looking for, whatever you believe that connection might be. And yes, you're doing a lot of guesswork there. But maybe it's a good guide to just say the thing that feels true to you that you think will connect with her. That's obviously so, so, so general. But for anybody listening, they might not have my sensibilities about
01:51:13
Speaker
Yes, I want to talk to you first about this common interest or whatever. Maybe there's somebody out there who what they want to talk about first is physical. Or what they want to talk about first is that budgie jumping pic. They want to talk about how they think you have adrenaline in common or whatever. Yeah.
01:51:33
Speaker
maybe a useful guide, a useful for our dating app survival guide. Maybe the thing to remember is say something that's true to yourself and that you think will connect with her. I think that, I mean, this is gonna sound so weird, but authenticity is what
01:52:00
Speaker
Help Donald Trump, your ex-president win that election back then. He sets us on his mind. He was authentic and Hillary didn't come across as authentic. Whatever came, like he went, like he, he created his own playbook, but he was authentic.
01:52:27
Speaker
And my personal opinion, maybe not the best person for the job. Yeah, agreed. I'm going to agree with you there. Hot take. People want it. They crave authenticity.
01:52:43
Speaker
Authenticity, maybe onto that level, obviously, that was also a marketing ploy, an inflated, exaggerated personality that can appeal to the people that you wanted to appeal to. But authenticity is very important. Be yourself, but also be respectful if you try to be true to yourself. And also, that's a different podcast, but
01:53:12
Speaker
We are not one thing, right? I interact with some men very differently to how I interact with some others. Extremely. And I, if I'm thinking on a date with somebody, I'm thinking, what if Scott was here my last day, Scott, to see how I interact with this guy, he wouldn't believe it. I'm not the same. It's a two way street. We interact. We have a dialogue.
01:53:41
Speaker
So, aspects of yourself that are relevant to, more relevant to that person. I see that with my clients. My clients are very different and I am myself with them, but I adapt to its situation. The culture of this client is more progressive.
01:54:11
Speaker
I am bringing forward my more progressive self. My other client is traditional banking kind of, you know, old school culture. I channel that aspect of my professional self into those meetings.
01:54:33
Speaker
Diversity, we're not one thing. Just adaptability. Stay true to yourself and align it to the situation and to the person that you have across your screen. But do it. Don't overthink it. That's the bottom line. We have a unique opportunity that it's unique. Never before did we have the opportunity to do this and reach so many people.
01:55:01
Speaker
Yeah. Reach out. They are there. Go ahead. Do it. Forget about rejection, I would say. It's all about that because fear of rejection. Forget about it. Forget about it. It makes zero difference. It's all in your head. Yeah, it's okay. Maybe feel the rejection for a while and then move on. Yeah. I want to agree with you very strongly. I do think that we all
01:55:29
Speaker
We all connect with different humans in different ways. You can call it like a mask. You can call it bringing a different aspect of yourself. I just think we do that naturally. I think it's healthy. I think it's good. I am a different version of Scott when I'm on a video call talking with Chrissa than I am going on a first date with someone else than I am speaking with my best friend while we're playing video games, whatever.
01:55:51
Speaker
And then that's correct. That's how human beings work. It doesn't make any sense. You know, it's only in this like modern age of creating a digital record of ourselves on like Instagram or whatever. It's only now that we sort of have this pressure I think to, or maybe not only now, but I think that aspect of modern life creates a pressure to feel that quote unquote authentic is the same exact thing in different circumstances, right? Like where somebody who's recording my daily life might
01:56:19
Speaker
might show a recording to one friend who's like, Oh, whoa, that seems like a very different Scott, right? And that and only because we have all this data only because of the modern internet allows us to create this like digital persona. I think because that's there. There's this weird pressure where it's like, well, I have to be
01:56:39
Speaker
that same thing. I have to be this persona that I'm crafting, which this is all very lofty and philosophical, but to pull it all the way back to how you're messaging someone on an app. I think that, at least in my experience, and I think this is what you're saying as well, the trick is, or the thing that you want to do is say the thing that you think is going to forge a connection. Say the thing that's going to be true about you, that you think their true self, whatever that means,
01:57:08
Speaker
is going to hear and respond to as best as you can, acknowledging two things. A, that's very, very, very hard to do because they don't know you and you don't know them. So you're going to do your very best to figure out what something is that you think you both might want to talk about.
01:57:28
Speaker
which can just fail sometimes. You can just get that wrong. I might misread something. She might have been intending sarcasm for that one thing in her profile and I took it as genuine, whatever. And the other aspect of it is, yeah, as you say, the rejection. Even if I do create a message that does spark something in her and might make her want to respond,
01:57:53
Speaker
Sometimes the timing is just wrong. Sometimes there's just something about it that doesn't work. And yeah. A lot of things. Yes. Yeah. There's so many things. This is a big thing that I like to tell men or that I like to tell myself is that not connecting with someone can feel like a little micro rejection, can feel painful, can feel like a failure. Messaging someone and not getting that response back can feel so painful. But I always try to tell myself and men who
01:58:22
Speaker
you know, to any men who will listen, like, you cannot let that get you down and fit like
01:58:29
Speaker
Yeah, there are just so many ways that that first message can fail to achieve its purpose. And it's not because you're not awesome. It's not because you're not doing enough work on yourself. It's not because you're not a good person. It's not because you don't deserve love. It's just because logistics and numbers and life and luck and so, so, so many things that are not about you
01:58:56
Speaker
It has nothing to do. Yes, it's not about you. Of course, it has a little something about you, but don't personalize it. Does it help that we've all been there? We have. This is such a common experience. We've all been there. This is mainly the reason why some people leave the app.
01:59:26
Speaker
They don't want to handle it. Don't personalize it so much. Obviously, yes, you will personalize it. We all do. But know that this is AI. This is just plain maths. Just play the game. Play the game. You're there. You're there.
01:59:50
Speaker
do it, go yet play the game. You have a mission, you have a goal to find your person in life. Obviously, this person that you texted them never messaged, they never responded back. It's not your person. I will recommend double texting before I dismiss them altogether. But
02:00:13
Speaker
Okay. The next one. I know it doesn't sound very sensitive, but don't do this in the real world. We're not doing this in the real world. We are doing this in an alternate reality, which is exactly what it is. And you have a lot of freedoms within that control, little environment. You have some freedoms. Great. It's a game of numbers after all.
02:00:43
Speaker
Okay, so let's talk about double texting and then I want to ask you a little bit about... All the taboos, yes. Yeah, right. There's a taboo. There's a taboo that you're not supposed to double text. It appears desperate if you're a woman. So I think a lot of women, and I could be wrong, but this is my conception, maybe this conception, but I feel like if a woman opens a chat history and just sees
02:01:09
Speaker
a bunch of texts from me and nothing from her. When she's looking at that screen, her instant response is, oh, I must not be interested in this guy because I haven't been texting him. Just like on maybe like a subconscious level, it feels like a visual representation. I'm putting in a whole lot of interest and she's not responding. So that's like the
02:01:31
Speaker
That's like the, um, the taboo or that that's why a guy feels they don't want to double text. I actually agree with you. Oh, sorry. I don't want to interrupt you. No, no. Go ahead. Please. So, so I agree with you. I do actually, I'm a big fan of the double text. What I tend to do.
02:01:49
Speaker
is like a week or two after I've sent that first message and gotten nothing but crickets. I will often send a text that says something to the effect of like,
02:02:03
Speaker
I just wanted to double text you again, or I just wanted to reach out again just in case you didn't have the app open last week or something, or just to roll the dice and hope that maybe I would show up on your screen. You seem really cool. That's a perfect message. Yeah, show up on your screen again. That's as simple as that.
02:02:24
Speaker
It's the perfect one. Yeah, go here, double text. I don't harass here. I'm not recommending harassment here. Same goes for women, two men, right? Yeah, sure, yeah. But active interest, you don't. Yeah, maybe I read your message when I was just, I was having a bad day. I was there, I was not, and I forgot to respond. It can happen. It happens, actually.
02:02:48
Speaker
It does happen. Second text doesn't matter. It doesn't hurt. Do it. If anything increases your chances of getting a response back and connecting. There's nothing wrong with that. Why do we think there's... Is it social media? I don't know. People used to double text all the time.
02:03:11
Speaker
all the time. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't know why we turn some basic interactions into taboos and nos and don'ts. I don't know. I'm a sociologist. My first degree is sociology, then my second one is in communications. I tend to see things
02:03:38
Speaker
as simple as possible because that's where I went to school and studied communications and sociology. My science says we need to communicate. I don't know why we put barriers up for ourselves.
02:03:53
Speaker
Just do it. Don't overdo it. Everything in moderation. Yes, do it. I recommend to everyone listening to this podcast, pick up your phone, see, find your matches, dead tats, anything, and text everyone. I bet you. I bet you. I bet you.
02:04:14
Speaker
real money, right? That depends on how many you're going to text, but you're going to hear back from them 100%. And this is a definite, a sure thing. I mean, not to put you on the spot, but can you think of either first messages or second text messages that stand out in your mind? Or like,
02:04:41
Speaker
And maybe it's unique to the guy, but just to ask you, a pretty lady on the apps, what are some messages, early messages that you've received that really felt wonderful or that made you feel special or anything noteworthy?
Humor and Directness in Messaging
02:04:58
Speaker
You know, the audience would be interested to hear. It depends. I mean, they're the ones that they approach it with humor, and I love those. And the ones that are forward, and they're like back to the basics. I think you're very pretty. I'd love to go out with you. Let's do it. When are you free? For me, that works the best for me.
02:05:26
Speaker
in the very first message, just like straight to the cut or straight to the chase. Intro yourself a little bit, just say the price and then cut to the chase. Why? Do you know how many hours wasted on the apps for people that we claim we want to be off the apps? If you're real about it, do it. It takes one person, it causes a ripple effect. It is, it does that.
02:05:53
Speaker
your behavior, if you change your behavior on the app slowly, but surely will change the others. 100%. Yes, I mean, they vary. I think by now here, I've seen it and I've read it all. But every message is new, it's unique, because I am not who I was yesterday. And I am not in the mood that I was yesterday. It's a different day. I am still single, you're still single. Let's
02:06:23
Speaker
you know, at least make the effort to, if we want to fix it, there's nothing to fix, but you know, update our relationship status, go out, interact with each other. That is if we need to understand that that's what the apps are for. It is a mechanism driven by technology that can help us meet more people,
02:06:50
Speaker
to go out with. That's it. Not to stay in touch on the apps. In Smalltalk, who wants to have Smalltalk on the apps? No one. Not in their life. Not on the apps. Nowhere. Nowhere. Yeah. I agree.
Meeting in Person
02:07:11
Speaker
I will say, so I think, and we should get close to wrapping up here. This has been a wonderful but long conversation.
02:07:19
Speaker
I love it. I think for men, in my experience anyway, it can be really tricky to get a feel for how you should approach dating, or how, I'm sorry, it can be really tricky to get a feel for how you approach messaging.
02:07:35
Speaker
on the apps because every woman is of course different and has different preferences and it can be very easy to sort of like over-learn how one connection went poorly, right? So you might match with someone who says, oh, no, no, no, no, that was way too early to ask me out. I really prefer to chat on these apps for at least two weeks before I even get on a phone call. If you're new to it or if you don't get a lot of message, I think matches. It can be very easy for a man to go like, oh,
02:08:04
Speaker
I need to adjust my approach because the norm on this dating app is that we should match for two weeks, which I agree with you, actually. I think it's a terrible idea. If somebody says to me, I want to chat for two weeks on the dating apps, for me, we're not a match. I'm going to let her go. I'm going to let her go. It's simple as that. Girl, if you want to chat for two weeks, then find a different app. Use WhatsApp. Use with your friends. Chat them up.
02:08:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I honestly, but hey, but if you're a guy who for whatever reason you really need to chat in text for two weeks before you meet somebody, I have a lot of questions for you. But like, if you know that that's your thing, then, you know, I don't know, you're looking for people that want to do that. But I agree with you. I think it's the, the goal for the dating apps is to get off the dating apps basically as quickly as you can, because meeting in person is just a hundred percent different.
02:09:00
Speaker
There is, I feel, a solution to everything. If you don't want to go, if it feels too much, too soon, just video chat. Next step is video chatting, or even a phone call, if you don't want to do that. I mean, there are solutions, there are...
02:09:17
Speaker
I don't know why we overcomplicate such simple things. And we do. But yes, be accommodating. And you do that. You are elegant in your approach. And you are considerate in all of that polite and all of that. But you have to maintain your own sense of self on the apps. You're not there to chat. I am definitely not the right person to,
02:09:46
Speaker
start chatting up to chat with for a long period of time. I don't like it. Let's talk if you want to get to know me and I want to get to know you.
02:10:01
Speaker
We're not going to do that over text. It's not going to happen. So simple, simple stuff.
Conclusion and Future Plans
02:10:10
Speaker
Back to basics. Don't overthink, take the step, take that one step, and then the next one, and then things will evolve naturally. Yeah.
02:10:24
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. There's so much more to talk about after chatting. We get to like switching to text and we get to like going on that first date. Maybe we can continue that part of the journey later. But I think this quick and dirty dating app survival guide was a very good chat. Thank you so, so much for your time. I hope so. I hope so.
02:10:47
Speaker
I really would, if you would be game, I mean, everyone I talk to on here, I always love, I love talking about this stuff. I love that you love talking about this stuff. I would really genuinely be down. If we want to go and find that data, if we can like pull annual reports and we can just like parse that, I think that could be really, really interesting.
02:11:05
Speaker
So, stay tuned, audience. And let's analyze. Yes, yes, let's find the data, the router, I've seen them, and let's talk about them. I think that would be fascinating. That's what the numbers say, the interpretation. There was a Pew survey recently about dating that I was trying to pull apart. Maybe we can throw that in there too.
02:11:30
Speaker
Krista, thank you so, so much for your time. Thank you for being a guest. Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty and wisdom on this stuff. I always enjoy our chats. I think the audience will also enjoy it. I love our chats and I really, truly hope that people do find at least some bits useful and that we help with their next date, their next match.
02:11:59
Speaker
So that would be precious. That's what we're here for for no other reason other than that. So I genuinely hope we've managed to create a two hour plus. Oh my God, podcast that people will find interesting. And hopefully they will hear some different perspectives.
02:12:25
Speaker
That's all. I'm fine on this quote. I can let my hair down. It's painful. Oh no, yes, of course. Thank you for... I know the microphone is getting trouble. Krista, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, until next time.
02:12:44
Speaker
All right, if you made it this far, thank you so much for listening. I know this is a long one. That was my conversation with Carissa in London. Yeah, and I hope you got something out of it. I really enjoyed having a talk.
02:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds good. Stay tuned if I can make it happen where she and I can get our hands on the data for the dating apps and take a look at that. I think that really could be interesting. It seems like somebody would be really awesome to have that conversation with. So I'll see if I can make that happen.
02:13:18
Speaker
As always, you can find the pod on Instagram, at wish you all the best pod. If you want to email me, email me at wish you all the best pod at gmail.com. And I'm going to stick with my dorky little outro line here, which is just to remind you all, always be kind, never skip light day.