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Justine - Rethinking Scott's Stance on Men Approaching Women in the Gym
49 Plays4 months ago
I heard Justine on Charlotte Warren's Welcome to the Peasant Party pod and I was pretty sure we'd get along. In this convo we talk dating stuff - everything from politics to approaching in the gym. Her podcast Villain Era is a personal podcast about modern dating, so obviously I'm a fan.
Podcast: Villain Era
wishyouallthebestpod@gmail.com @wishyouallthebestpod
music - "Lofi & Love" by NottyVonDutch -https://soundcloud.com/nottyvondutch - Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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Transcript
Introduction of Justine: Modern Dating Insights
00:00:23
Speaker
it's been a little while since I've put one of these out. um You know, I only record these when I have someone who who I'm excited to talk to about this stuff.
00:00:34
Speaker
um And so ah my guest for this one, um her name is Justine. i I ran into Justine because she was a guest on ah Welcome to the Peasant Party a podcast and show um by Charlotte Warren, Charlotte who I like a lot.
00:00:51
Speaker
um And I heard ah her conversation with Justine and I i really, and just I don't know, I just wanted to
Justine's Fitness and Podcast Ventures
00:00:58
Speaker
talk to Justine. She seemed like someone who um was really thinking about modern dating ah with a, I don't know, a a kind of humor and and intelligence and vulnerability that I that i really admired.
00:01:14
Speaker
um and that I, you know, and that I think I aspire to here. So I reached out and she was ah awesome enough to agree to um ah to come on come on this podcast. And so, ah yeah, so that's this episode. um ah Just to kind of put the quick plugs out there, Justine's thing, she's a um ah She's a a fitness and nutrition coach you can find her ah just fit Justine on Instagram and she's got her podcast called villain era where she talks mostly about dating stuff um Would recommend both of those a lot of fun um and she's got her coaching business um Fitness and nutrition. I'll put the link in the description. ah Just wanted to make sure to plug that I really like her approach to all of this stuff I was going through her content and
00:02:02
Speaker
ah her podcast and the stuff she puts on Instagram for her coaching. And I just like her approach to all of it. So I don't know, really, um really feel comfortable kind of plugging that for anyone who is listening. if you're If you're out there thinking about kind of making the next step in physical fitness, that's something that I um ah try not to be too preachy about it, but I think paying attention to your physical fitness is a really, really important part of um don't know just living a fulfilling happy life. It's been a um been a real game changer for me. So um if you are interested in doing that kind of thing and ah working with a coach on fitness and or nutrition sounds like a good thing, let this be your nudge to reach out, check our stuff out.
Discussion on Dating Topics and Justine's Approach
00:02:50
Speaker
um She might be the right person to help you do do some awesome stuff.
00:02:54
Speaker
um ah Yeah, so as always, we never get to all of the topics that we were kind of hoping to get to. um ah ah Justine and I didn't really get into talking about the dating apps versus real life, like how to meet people as much as I ah ah was was planning to, um but we talk about um We talk about her current relationship and We talk about politics because why not um and then yeah, we just kind of get into various aspects of dating In this conversation kind of goes all over the place. I I have to admit I feel a little rusty. I haven't been ah Sort of hosting a guest or like steering Conversation about this stuff in a minute. So I hope you'll forgive me if I'm a little all over the place, but I really had a lot of fun
00:04:10
Speaker
good, how are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm excited to talk with you. Um, okay. So you are, I'm just going to get all your, all your plugs out of the way at the top here on Instagram. You are, uh, just fit, Justine, just dot.fit dot.justine encourage everybody to check you out. Um, you have a podcast, we'll talk about that more in a second called villain era. Um, and you also have a coaching business. I'll be sure to put the link in there. Um, and that coaching is like fitness coaching or like life coaching or what's that about? real Yeah. Personal training and nutrition coaching.
00:04:40
Speaker
I love that. Okay. I'll put that stuff in the in the and the linky thing in the description for folks to check it out. um Okay. I do want to talk about your villain era podcast there. So you are a divorcee and you have been podcasting about your dating journey after the divorce, which, um, same Z's like, honestly, it was only a matter of time until you and I found each other on the internet. Um, because we're kind of doing the same stuff and your villain era podcast. Uh, I really love it. I think you bring like,
00:05:15
Speaker
a vulnerability and wit and ah ah I don't know, a really like interesting introspective ah and like I would say sometimes like brutally honest approach to looking at this stuff, which I think is really important, right? I think like i mean, that's the that's the whole reason I'm doing this thing here, right? like I think think modern dating is hard. I think it's hard for men and women in different ways, but I i really love your approach with that.
Overcoming Challenges and Empowerment
00:05:43
Speaker
um So I don't know, can I open up like ah you talking about what made you want to start doing Villanera or anything you want to say about that?
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, I was just creating so much content around fitness and I wanted something that was just a little bit more personal and I got to share this story. and It does blend in a way because although my page is a lot about fitness, the ultimate goal behind that is really about empowering women.
00:06:12
Speaker
and that you know like Yes, I talk about weight loss and strength training and things like that, but it's really so that women have more confidence. And I'm such a believer that when women start to like get into the gym and they lift heavy things and they feel their strength grow, then that strength like segues into other areas. And so I went through a very abusive relationship and got through that, got like went through my divorce. And I just wanted to start sharing that. And it's been just another way for me to connect and help women. like I have women reach out all the time just saying, like thank you for sharing this. Because I think a lot of times when we think of someone
00:06:51
Speaker
I think a lot of people think, like how did Justine, who is like so outspoken and strong, like she got stuck in this abusive relationship? And people always kind of say, like how did you let that happen? And just being really open and honest, and that it's not always... Sorry, a little light.
00:07:09
Speaker
But it's not always so cut and dry and then being able to get through that and like not let it make me jaded and try and hopefully have a second chance at this again in terms of finding love and getting married and going through all of that journey.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I'm going to plug your fitness stuff one last time before the audience gets sick of it. I do really love your approach to fitness. um i love I love just like the general trend of women. i don't think it's a broad i mean I don't see a lot of people doing this, but more and more I see people encouraging women to get in the gym and lift heavy things. like I think that's so healthy and so awesome. and um I just really love your approach to it. I think the approach that you have in your content, just to just to kind of plug you and encourage anybody who's listening to go check you out,
00:07:55
Speaker
um I think it's like practical and realistic and like so much of what the algorithm serves me about fitness stuff is like people who obviously spend like eight hours a day in the gym who are just like absolutely insanely in shape and like have maybe personal chefs or you know what I mean like just really yeah unrealistic stuff and not to say I mean you're in amazing shape but like I feel like the advice you give and the approach you have is like very achievable for people who are normal people who just are ready to make that next step into a more a more physically fit life. So I don't know. I honestly highly recommend your stuff. When I was researching you after we sort of agreed that we were going to hop on here and do this, um that was my big takeaway from your fitness stuff. So like I love
Exploring Modern Dating Dynamics
00:08:40
Speaker
that. Keep it up. And I would encourage everybody to go to go check you out. JustFitJustine.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. That's the goal. so Let's get into the juicy stuff. Let's talk relationships. um Okay, so can we you are you are currently dating someone. Your approach on your podcast is similar to mine. You don't often get into like juicy like like hot goss on your pod about who you're dating. um You keep it kind of like generalized, but you are dating somebody you call astronaut guy right now. have And so I just kind of wanted to open up how are things going with astronaut guy.
00:09:14
Speaker
Not dating anymore. Okay. Hit me with it. How did it go? Yeah. um I had been seeing this guy since like before Thanksgiving, but also there was a lot of travel happening. So I don't think in the entire time, I don't think there was longer than a week span that we were both in town at the same time. okay it's hard It was kind of hard to figure out like is this Because of the travel, is this because you know what's going on here? Because in-person interaction seemed really good. But towards the end, I was just getting super frustrated with, I would say, like a lack of communication and a lack of like, you have to be able to put put in time with someone if you want to build that connection. And so ultimately, I
00:10:07
Speaker
We had seen each other. I was like, you know what? Everything seemed great in person. Maybe we'll have a little bit of time that we're both in town. And then three days later, I just got hit with a text that was like literally listed like all the nicest things about me. It's like, you're amazing. You're so funny. You're successful. You're active. You have all these great qualities, yeah but I'm just not in my masculine. And I whoa and did not see that coming. Okay. Okay. And I was just like,
00:10:37
Speaker
I mean, yeah, you can't you acted like everything was fine to my face. You didn't bring any of this up. um And I just kind of feel like it's not my job to make you feel like a man like. Yeah. Yeah. So not seeing him anymore. I have gone on like another date since just back on the apps, of course. But ah yeah, just back to dating. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry that happened. It's never fun when something doesn't work out. um I don't know. I often say like you know like a.9% lose rate is actually okay. like You just need one. You just need one to be the thing that works. and like The rest of them that aren't going to work, kind of the sooner you figure that out, the better. you know Yeah. yeah and I'm definitely someone who is going to lead a good amount of times and I'm pretty
00:11:35
Speaker
outspoken and I have a lot of things going on. So for like that comment to be like, I'm not in my masculine, I was like, that just kind of feels like you want someone that's maybe a little bit more like traditional and that's very much not me. So yeah I was like, all right, if that is not going to be a fit to the point, yeah, I'd rather get out of here and three months, then six months or even longer. So. Yeah. Do you, okay. So this this is, this might just segue into our, like, everything is political, uh, topic. So to foreshadow that, do you, okay. So I don't often hear men using the sort of like masculine feminine dichotomy. There's like a thing now I, and correct me if you, if you experience or this as different or you're, you're probably in a different algorithm than I am or whatever, but like I, I hear,
00:12:25
Speaker
the people I hear talking about like their masculine or their divine masculine um or their divine feminine or whatever, the people I hear talking about that are usually women um and like cards on the table here, i I am, that usually turns me off. Like the whole conversation for me is usually, I try not to be too judgy, but it usually feels like kind of a red flag to me. um But you know, I could be wrong. I'd be interested to hear your take on that. Do you often hear men talking about,
00:12:54
Speaker
masculine versus feminine? Is that something that shows up in your dating life? If you get the Red Pill Bro podcast talking about it and those types of guys who are very like, you've got to be a man, you have to be masculine.
00:13:11
Speaker
I think there's portions of it where if we look at it more as like an energy base of like a masculine energy and a feminine energy and really actually realizing that people have dichotomies of both of that and saying like it doesn't, I think i think you have to kind of almost, I know it's masculine and feminine, but you almost have to think of it as an energy versus like a gender role ah for it to make sense a little bit. So in terms of like,
00:13:39
Speaker
when you think of someone just like leading and like taking and being outspoken. So it's like when I am you know at work, I'm in my masculine energy, but like I don't want to feel that way necessarily when I'm dating. Okay. But I think it's, again, though, just a lot. like That's like an internet topic. Yeah. like I've never heard anyone actually talk about that in real life. Yeah. Yeah, same. Interesting.
00:14:04
Speaker
um
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah. okay because like i think okay Okay. To zoom out a little bit, I do think dating is in an interesting place right now. I think i think it's complicated. A lot of things are influencing this and I think this sort of like what people are looking for out of a romantic partnership um just gets really complicated, right? Because like I think, okay, I know this is kind of cringy, but like i'm ah I am somebody who would call myself a feminist. And that means a lot of things to a lot of different people. But I think in general, the trend that women have much more agency over what they can do in life, what they're able to contribute to society, what they're able to contribute to the workforce, ah you know but having more options, I think.
00:14:48
Speaker
is is a net positive. And like selfishly for me, one of the ways that I see that is that to get very personal in in a romantic relationship, i i'm I'm a straight guy, I'm i am attracted to women. I want a woman who is choosing to be with me because she's choosing me, because she has she's not forced to you know hitch her wagon to me because her options are ah her other options are like,
00:15:18
Speaker
horrible, which is i kind of I think kind of the case like as as as recently as like three or four decades ago, maybe less, right? Like I i guess I'm saying like im I support that stuff in a way very selfishly, right? Because I want someone who's choosing me. I want another human being who is like awesome. I want to do this life thing with you. I want to find intimacy with you. I want to see you and feel seen by you. And I think for for me, the masculine feminine thing or a lot of what's coming out of like the red pill stuff. And I think i think and i think there's like a quote unquote feminine or women sort of talking about like the the other side of the the red pill stuff as well, which and we get that if you want to. But like all that stuff to me
00:16:04
Speaker
I think it just sort of boils down to a situation where men are financial providers or maybe like there's a way to see that as like financial but like cultural providers or like men are the the sort of center of a household and the job of a woman is to like find a man and like attach herself to him and like that's life strategy. And like, I don't know that that just like really
00:16:31
Speaker
I don't want to say it gives me the ick, but I hate that. I think that's a recipe for an unfulfilling life, an unfulfilling relationship. I don't really know where I'm going with that. I'm just kind of writing about it. Yeah, and I think a super uneven power dynamic. I mean, if I'm going on a date with someone,
00:16:52
Speaker
there to the point, you know, decades ago, there was a time where women couldn't buy a house and they couldn't have a checking account. And like, that was our grandparents. Like that wasn't that that long ago. yeah But for me dating now, I can buy my own dinner. I'm paying my bills. I can take care of myself. So when I'm going to spend time with someone, it's because I actually want to spend time with them. And I am I love being home alone too. So it's like, okay, if I'm actually going to go spend time with you, it's like, you know, you're not fighting for a spot with a roster, but are you better than me sitting home alone in my own piece? Yeah. Yeah. um ah So many threads to pull on there. but So um I talk about this book a lot. Rebecca Traster has this book called All the Single Ladies. And she's basically talking about a trend where so many young women are basically opting out of dating.
00:17:44
Speaker
either dating less or just like dating not at all because the the concepts or the or the the the the proposal, but like the the the option of having a relationship is not a net win. Like alone is a much better option than somebody who's going to like get into a relationship with them and then like expect them to not only earn a second income, but also do emotional labor, also do like actual labor around the house, right? like yeah um anyway i But okay, so all that said, I think I know the answer from this because I've listened to your podcast, but do you do you still like it, for example? like And and not so this is such a tired example, but I think it's interesting to kind of talk about, but like when a man pays for dinner, right? because oh yeah Yeah, I will say that like i i I have all those ideals, I do you know very
00:18:34
Speaker
cringially call myself a feminist, I will i would say 98% of the time I pay for dinner on dates, and I will always offer. and um I don't know. i think I don't do that because I'm trying to say that my value is my bank account. I don't do that because I'm trying to say, well, I'm paying for this food, so later on you're going to owe me a smooch or whatever. like I think I just kind of do it because um I want to say like it's how I was raised or something. um
00:19:12
Speaker
there's There's more there, but does that make sense? like I don't know. Do you like it when a man pays for dinner? Yeah. I want my door opened. yeah hey hi i am I will also be the first to say that I am not going to fake pull out my card either. like When that bill comes, I'm going to sit there. right right so I enjoy all of those things. and To the point, i also though I think that you can be a feminist and still understand that. like There's a lot of jokes lately where so people are like, oh, I'm i'm making sourdough, but not in the tradwife way in the, I'm picking to do this on my own,
Gender Roles and Societal Expectations
00:19:52
Speaker
right? like I love to cook and like nourish and like kind of do a lot of more of those like traditional
00:20:00
Speaker
female roles, but I like to do them when they are reciprocated, when they're appreciated, when it's not like, oh, you do this because you're a woman. But I like to do it out of my own choice and my own decision making process because I like to cook and I like to cook for the people I love. And so doing that not because You know, my ex-husband, for instance, was very like, well, I go to work all day. You work from home. I expect dinner her to be at the table at six o'clock and I'm not going to tell you what I want to eat. Right. And so I was like, that's two very different energies of the intent behind it. And I think the intent behind something matters so much. Right. So, you know, if there is someone out there paying and whining and dining because they're trying to get something from it verse
00:20:46
Speaker
I just think that, hey, if a man asked me on a date and he initiates this and I'm going to risk getting myself killed and put a whole lot more effort into my makeup and showing up, then yeah, he can buy me dinner. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. i I guess the way I kind of think about it sometimes is that I think like culturally on like a decades long or even like a generational long time span. I think i think our hearts evolve a little more slowly than our minds. you know like I want to i want to like feel that magical spark, you know that little thing that like you know it when you feel it with someone. right
00:21:27
Speaker
and i think Like that's the thing at the at the center of dating. I think that's the thing that we're all kind of chasing, right? That's the thing that we're hoping for. We want the like the clouds to part and for like sunlight to shine and to be like, oh, my gosh, this is my person. Like I feel that thing. And at least for me, a part of feeling that thing is it sounds dumb, but like paying for dinner, you know, like yeah doing a little bit of playing that role a little bit. um Even though, again, like in my mind, I know I want someone who
00:21:58
Speaker
is choosing me because not because she sees me as financial stability. um Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I guess I just, it's a tough thing to to kind of pull apart, right? Because like, and and like, let's get into the politics, right? i think I think the conservative, I would say conservative slash traditional, yeah I mean, you kind of know what I'm talking about, like that side of culture,
00:22:24
Speaker
um really believes that those roles should be, or at least my interpretation of what they're saying, is that they really believe those roles should be like codified and that like a woman playing a nurturing role, making sourdough, making dinner, um should be not something that she chooses, but something that she i think they I think they see it that they that that should be her only option and that there are like cultural gains. There are important societal effects when sort of women know their role and men know their role. Does that make sense? yeah um And it's hard because I find myself sort of like desiring that to feel that romantic spark, but at the same time knowing, like it's very important to me that like
00:23:11
Speaker
you know someone I'm dating, if I do you know like that she cooks for me sometimes, she makes breakfast, right? It's very important to me that she knows that she can say like, actually, no, I don't want to make breakfast, let's go out. Or she can say, Scott, how about you scramble the eggs this time, right? And I'll go like, do my best. um and and and that's And I think that's a weird place. I think that's a weird complicated place for people who are, I would say, like progressive, trying to date.
00:23:41
Speaker
um and it's it's kind of um I kind of think we're trailblazing a little bit. you know I think we're like trying to figure out something something new, trying to figure out a new pattern, a new, I don't want to say set of values, but like I kind of feel like we are kind of going where others have not gone before. And certainly, we're going down a path that others have like helped us pave. um But it's it's very, very different from, I would say, the sort of conservative traditional pathway that is very like, no, no, no, this is how it's been for
00:24:16
Speaker
a long time. It probably hasn't been that way for as long as they would argue if you like look at history because like yeah history changes so much. But you know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know where I'm going. Yeah. and I think kind of going back to the idea of what is the intent behind it because I think if it's being done in a way to control, then that's where it becomes a problem versus it becomes being doing it in a way because, hey, I want to show that I care about you.
00:24:43
Speaker
And a lot of times you can tell. You can tell why they're doing that or what they're choosing from that and saying, okay, like this person wants a more, you know, traditional option. And I think that like, honestly, I mean, if we like look in politics, it's just,
00:25:04
Speaker
I am very liberal and especially with dating apps, it the amount of people who say conservative and will try to match with me and I'm just like, you would hate me. You would literally hate me. um And I just think it's so funny. i like It seems to me that you know ah they are much more willing to like look past it and have different options. But I'm like, as soon as you had a conversation with me or any type of like see the way, I was like, you would actually not enjoy being around me. And I can promise you that. Yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah, every now, so that's interesting. My side of that is i call also again, very liberal. Every now and then I will, and I'm in i'm in Los Angeles, which is a sort of, I think I'm culturally, and you're in Austin right now, yeah? Austin, yeah. Okay. So I would say fairly liberal for Texas, but probably less liberal than like Los Angeles news. Yeah. I mean, Austin goes blue, but I would say there are a lot of like, we're in Texas, cowboys, and you know I feel like I feel like a lot of my girlfriends are liberal and then there's a lot of men um around that are not.
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and And that's a thing that's like happening right now. like like Men are really strongly skewing conservative. um you know We are here in February 2025. It's like the early days of the Trump administration, which are like, we can't even talk about that because by the time this gets published, like more bananas crap is going to happen. But like it was, I mean, not like 80%, but like a really strong plurality of men are supporting like a conservative movement right now. um And I think that gender divide ah politically is... I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that's new. like that's trending That divide is is is growing.
00:26:59
Speaker
um And that's nuts. It's men saying, we think society should be run this way, and women saying, no, no, no, we think society should be run this other way. I don't know. um Anyway, I guess I was going to say like my side of the conservative thing sort on the dating apps because I think it's very different for men, certainly different for me in l LA. Every now and then I'll just see, like I would say one in a hundred profiles that I might look at when I'm on a dating app are like very staunchly like looking for a traditional man or like looking for an alpha man or like no libtards or you know like really just like strident, really just like putting it out there, like like waving the flag of their politics on their dating app.
00:27:46
Speaker
and i think But the other 99% of the time, and maybe this is just because I'm in a you you know obviously, because I'm in a more liberal area, um I just kind of assume that I'm looking at feminist-ish people. I'm looking at yeah women who you know are probably ah successful. like if Honestly, if you're living in Los Angeles, you' you've got something going on that lets lets you pay rent here. right like You're doing okay um um professionally. um and I don't know, generally have
00:28:20
Speaker
leftish cultural values I think every now and then you see someone who says moderate. And I think think for when I'm looking at a woman's profile and she says moderate or like apolitical, usually it just means that she's not that interested in paying attention. And I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when you see a man say that they're moderate or apolitical, it really means that they're kind of like conservative-ish culturally.
00:28:47
Speaker
yeah ah I don't want to talk about it or don't want to like lead with that. and i don' yeah you know If they don't have anything listed, if it says moderate, I'm assuming that you are leaning right and that you don't want to put it on there because this is the current like there are people that won't date you now because of it and you don't want to put that on there. yeah but i i don't I don't have any prompts around mine, but I just have the little one where it says, hey, I am liberal.
00:29:14
Speaker
yeah and To be honest, it's probably going to come up on the first date. And I also just can't deal with, to the point, I cannot deal with anyone sitting here and saying, I'm not political because just the like amount of privilege and the amount of just clearly only caring about yourself. And to be honest, I think the only people that can really afford to be not political are cis straight white men yeah and
00:29:45
Speaker
It's just to me like not understanding how politics like last night I was actually having a discussion with someone about the fact that people don't even understand when we can look at fashion trends, how much we can tell in the world of fashion trends that our country has been leading towards a more conservative outlook and we see that in a lot more beige clothing. We see that in camo trending. We see it in more conservative styles. Um, you know, like red lipstick was back really kind of like got popular with like Rosie the Riveter and like, um, people actually coming out against and saying like, um, like it was a stance, right? And so I didn't know that's cool. But when a country leads more conservative, we see a lot less,
00:30:32
Speaker
just differentiating in terms of personal style. And so to dress more bold and to wear more colors is an act of resistance in itself. Oh, interesting. Yeah. so um i mean the the The length of skirts, you know like what trends in a skirt often correlates with where the economy is.
00:30:56
Speaker
so are are, oh, interesting, are our shorter skirts, okay, shirt lengthng skirt length the economy, are shorter skirts a sign of a strong economy, or ah or how does that work? Yeah, no, no, no, no normally you see like a shorter skirt with ah like not as good of economy. But then like you're gonna see, like I mean, we we saw a lot of these like long denim skirts trending that haven't trended in a while, because's like it's leaning so conservative.
00:31:26
Speaker
that's wild yeah conservative in terms of like showing less leg, like being more modest. Yeah. So you're covering more of your body. Yeah. That stuff is totally opaque to me. I was i was out Valentine's dinner last night um and this lovely woman who I'm dating, who I'm not going to name, um ah was like told me that she noticed a pair of Prada shoes and was like trying to explain to me how like she just knows what different designers lines are. And I was like, I, I, how did you like spot a pair of shoes and know who made them from across the room? And she's like, well, you can look at a car and know like what, what year the car is. And that was, that was really, I dunno, she was educating me on that. Um, but yeah, and i okay so the political side of it, I, I don't even really know where to go here, but like,
00:32:16
Speaker
i I do think, I think that there's like a cultural thing happening. And again, this kind of, I think this kind of gets to the point of this like passion project podcast for me. I think something culturally that's happening is that everyone is having a harder time connecting with people, big picture. And I think men are just basically worse at it than women. I think we have a really hard time forging real vulnerable friendships um or or romantic partnerships. And I think technology, social media,
00:32:46
Speaker
people just living farther apart, like a lot of trends. are making us more lonely, right? like The Surgeon General of the US, I don't know if he's done anymore, but like ah Vivek Murthy wrote this book called um ah Together, basically talking about like loneliness as a modern epidemic. And I really think that's true. like i think I think in general, we are getting more lonely. And i think I think that is hitting men in a way that makes them very, very susceptible to the rhetoric of
00:33:17
Speaker
um Like the political right right now, like i I think a lot of the message of the political right is really about like telling disenfranchised men that it's not your fault that you're not as successful as your father and your grandfather, that kind of thing. It's not your fault that your plan for life is not working out for you. Because I think for a lot of men, their plan for life is not working out for them, right? Like I think for a lot of men, the template is get a job, mostly obey the law,
00:33:49
Speaker
you know, be a stand-up person and you will have you'll you'll have a good life. And the thing that isn't really said too loudly there or the thing that I think we'd ever really... I think the thing that men really need to grapple with is that like that template of be a good person, have a good job,
00:34:07
Speaker
and then get a good life is basically entirely dependent on a woman finding you, becoming your partner, and taking care of like so many of your needs like community, ah family, intimacy, things that people really, really need. and like So men are going through this period where the contract that we sort of are told or we believe is there is just not working, right? And and and not to have too much, I don't i really i don't mean to have like too much empathy for, again, cishet white men because we do have so much power. um But I think, I don't know. i i um And again, I'm very far left. I don't agree with this approach. My hope is to like sort of tease men out of that and to say, like
00:34:53
Speaker
No, the old contract is actually not that great because you're going to end up with a partner who's not choosing you because they like you. You're going to end up with a partner who isn't going to make you feel seen because they don't see you as anything other than what she had to do to have a checking account or to be like valid in society. and even though today women do have checking accounts and and and are it is okay for them to you know have careers and women are now often more educated than men. I think not earning more than men, but like I think you know we're seeing that shift.
00:35:26
Speaker
um yeah you know well anyway i think i think think like i think My hope for men, and I i know that like I can't just like scream loudly enough into the internet for this to happen, but I think my hope for modern men is that we can realize that romantic partnership can be so deep and fulfilling and like really amazing um if you find that person who is is liking you for you, is is loving you for you and not because you fulfill some
00:36:05
Speaker
like a role in that social contract. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. And I think understanding that as humans, like we're built to have connection and that's super important. And so yeah, maybe someone doesn't need you from a monetary or like right standpoint, but I do think we need each other in terms of connection like as humans, we're meant to be in you know tribes essentially. And so to have that for someone and someone you feel comfortable and vulnerable with, but I think it it has seen this point where as women, we have just raised forever and ever that we like, okay, you can do anything, you can be anything. And we really got pushed into this and it doesn't necessarily feel like
00:36:55
Speaker
you know, as women, like, okay, maybe we start off a little bit, we think you women more like nurturing caretakers type things. And then we've been pushed into like, okay, you can do any role, you can work at a job, you can be a CEO. And we're pushed into that more masculine side. First, we haven't necessarily seen men, I think pushed as much into being okay with being vulnerable or like having those conversations.
Emotional Openness and Friendships
00:37:19
Speaker
And I see it even with my guy friendships where, you know, the other month there was like two of our guy friends had both gone through a breakup and they're talking to us about it. And we were like, why aren't you guys talking to each other? Like yeah you can talk to me as your friend, but like also why are you guys so afraid to like talk to each other as two male friends about your feelings and like,
00:37:44
Speaker
Hey, you can talk to each other more than about drinking beer and playing pool and being okay to open up to that. And then that's going to give you even better, more fulfilling friendships too. Yeah. I mean, there's so much there. So, okay.
00:37:57
Speaker
So the masculine feminine dichotomy there, right? And and and I think it's it's awesome the way you're framing that. like I think it's right. We we we think of masculine as like being a provider, right? Like going to your job is quote unquote masculine, right? And then being feminine is like taking care of your emotional self, taking care of your like internal, the way you feel in your heart or whatever you want to call it, right? Yeah.
00:38:18
Speaker
And yeah, I so okay, listen, as like a lefty feminist dude with a podcast about how men should be vulnerable, okay, I would say I, I even have a hard time talking to my guy friends about vulnerable stuff. I try. I really do. I put in the effort. But like if I'm honest with you, I just notice in myself that it is easier for me to like spill my guts with a woman who is a friend than with a man who is a friend.
00:38:48
Speaker
and like just just to say like there is something deep, there is something deep in me that was like a seed that was planted early. And i i I personally do not believe that it's like in my DNA, I do not believe that it's nature. I think that I was just taught and and I can't back this up with evidence, but like my faith based or whatever, my might might totally just like guess at this is that like I have just been told for decades that it is not okay for men to talk about vulnerable stuff. you know Even with my guy friends who are very lefty, who are like down to talk about vulnerable stuff, who are honestly listening to this podcast right now because they're awesome bros and they love talking about this stuff. um It is harder. like there is just like ah there's a little bit There's a little extra resistance. I don't know
00:39:38
Speaker
I don't know how to like even quantify it really, but like it's just easier for me to like spill my guts with a woman than it is with a man. and I hope that's not true for the next generation, but like I don't know, just cards on the table. I think i mean i yeah i don't know i i guess I'm just saying I get it. and and I think I would argue it's worth the work. It is worth it for men to like push through that, and we have to do that, but I do think that resistance is there. Yeah. Yeah, because I think to the point, there's been decades of conditioning that that's whether it's openly directly said that or it's modeled to you in the other like relationships in your life or the people you look up to, but then it is one of those things that is kind of putting more of the emotional labor onto women. 100%. Again, one of the things I had said about our friend the other day, we had a friend who was like going through it and I was like, listen, I'm going to show up for him.
00:40:33
Speaker
But I said, I am kind of exhausted because I could tell you everything about him and I don't think he could tell you a single thing about me. And there's a point of, it has to almost be reciprocated, right? Not that it isn't always, but I'm like, I have done this emotional labor to make sure that I am standing up for you yeah and can, you know, are my guy friends gonna show up in the same way and reciprocate that back? Yeah, that's fair.
00:41:01
Speaker
that's very fair. I do think, I mean, get okay, so for me, i I could be wrong about this, but I i think my girlfriends would say that i that I'm pretty good. I hope they would say that I'm good at that. I do try hard to be that, to to reciprocate, to like make space, to listen to what they're going through, that kind of thing. And I think, and like weirdly enough, that's easier for me. Huh, I haven't really thought about it that way. I guess I would just say like,
00:41:31
Speaker
I think it's definitely worth it for everyone to put in the effort to understand your friends, to be there for them, to reciprocate with vulnerability and to receive their vulnerability.
Gym Culture and Respectful Interactions
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's great as a girl to have a guy friend that you can go to and be like, hey, I'm dating this guy. Can you give me a male perspective here? Yeah.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah, so i am I am proud and I am proud. Like I do have women friends who do that with me and that does feel really nice. It does feel really nice to feel that that trusted, you know? um Yeah, anyway. um Okay, okay, okay. Do you want to switch gears into the dating apps?
00:42:13
Speaker
dating on naps dating in real life. yeah Okay, so you are a fitness, a fitness influencer, coach, do you do that thing? So I wanted to open up the question, do you think it's okay to approach someone who you think is cute? Or do you think it's okay to approach in the gym? I have a hot take on this, but 100% think so. Okay, I don't know why.
00:42:35
Speaker
it wouldn't be. I don't see any reason as long as you're not going up to them in the middle of their set. And I think as long as you're not creepy about it, but if you're seeing someone that you already know you have an interest in the same, you're both into fitness, which is a big lifestyle interest, try and catch them at like the end of their workout or something. And why not just approach them? I think that I don't see any reason why someone would approach me at a bar and not at the gym yeah to the point, just don't do it when I'm in the middle of my, like literally like, you know, back squatting and then you come up. And then also if I, if it's not reciprocated, don't be creepy about it. Like I think that would be the only things yeah that I would not want someone to approach me out of the gym because you are going to have to keep seeing each other. So if you work out at the same time, but like, Hey, I would,
00:43:31
Speaker
I would love for someone to approach me at the gym. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. let let Let me give you my take on this and maybe you can like talk me out of it. Um, but I think no. And let me tell you why. That's okay. That's okay. If we had the same opinions, it would be boring. Um, yeah. So I think no, I think for, for, for I, I just, I never approach in the gym. I never like,
00:43:53
Speaker
I give women so much space in the gym um because I think my gym, I think like like most gyms, and this is different if I'm like going going to a Pilates class, which I've done in the past, which is a very different vibe, but but in a gym, I think a gym is a very like I don't want to say masculine, but it's a very like dude heavy space. Like my gym anyway, like it literally, it's not, it's not a bad gym. It's a good gym, but like it smells like dudes because like, you know, 220 pound dudes are getting sweaty and in the corner and moving like a stupid amount of weight because you know, we're in there to do that thing, right?
00:44:29
Speaker
Um, and that's great. And I love that. And I love having that space to do that. The gym is like fricking church to me, you know? Um, it's, it's, I need that time for my mental health. I just need it. So, I think it's a very, like, dude-heavy space. And, you know, women are in there wearing their, like, you know, $350 matching aloe outfits or whatever, you know, like, looking cute. Like, everyone in there aesthetically looks attractive because they're people who work out, right? So, like, that's that that's there. And I think, I don't know, I think to an extent it is true probably that men
00:45:03
Speaker
ah yeah are like more visually stimulated romantically or whatever. I don't know, that's kind of a rabbit hole. But like you know you're looking around, people look cute. Everybody knows that people look cute there. like It's a thing. I give women such a wide berth in the gym. like i i will If somebody, for whatever reason, catches my eye and I'm like, oh wow, she looks really good or she's talking to someone and she sounds really cool, I will like barely glance at her. I will like maybe be in her space and like see her and like give her like three seconds opportunity to make eye contact and then I will just totally like like intentionally avoid her her end of the room while I'm doing my thing. And the reason I do this is because like
00:45:51
Speaker
i think I think that like like I go to my my gym, my same gym, a lot. like The gym is ah an important thing to me. and like I don't want the culture in my gym. I don't want to contribute to the culture in my gym being a place where women are made to feel uncomfortable. Because like as it is, they're like 20% tops of the people you know near the squat racks. And like I think that's great. i want that I want it to be a safe place both for women to do what they're doing, but also I want it to be a place where like I don't have to put up with other men like approaching or chatting people up. Because like I don't know. i i just I think it ruins the vibe. I think it like
00:46:34
Speaker
I think it like it's like a sacred space for me. I i don't want it to be to be a bar. You know what I mean? So like i I don't want to contribute to it being a pickup scene. you know um All that said, any time a woman like looks at me, smiles at me, like is waiting for the machine that I'm on or whatever, I will like engage and say hello. or like The same that I would with, i i hope I think I hope, the same that I would with a guy. and i've made I've made friends at the gym, my current gym, all men. All the friends I've made at the gym are dudes. I will like like give them consideration. I'm not like rudely ignoring them if they are
00:47:24
Speaker
putting out some signal that like they are interested in at least interacting, like asking me where you know the the bar clip is or whatever. um And 100% of the time when that happens, the vibe I get immediately after that is like, this interaction is concluded. Thank you for giving me the 10 pound weight that I was looking for. And I'm gonna go about doing my thing. And I and i just go like, okay, cool, shutting it down. And I don't and i don't even like,
00:47:49
Speaker
I don't know. So am I wrong? I don't know. Talk me out of it. That's my perspective as somebody who's like going to the gym, you know, using that space as like a sacred space for me, but also wanting it to be that for others. Like I don't, does that make sense? Yeah. And I think though that if someone were to hit on me and I wasn't interested, hopefully they would just take the hint yeah or you know and not keep pushing it. right or If they were going to keep pushing it, that's going to make me feel uncomfortable. but yeah To the point, it's like I feel very empowered at the gym. and so i mean I'm wearing my cute outfit and I'm lifting and I feel really good and I'm like checking myself out. so like I actually kind of enjoy that verse. you know A lot of times, again, if we're thinking of like, okay, people approach me at the bar all the time, I'm like,
00:48:41
Speaker
Oh, like I'm, I'm drinking and I'm with my friends and I have like different plans there. So yeah, I think as long as someone just comes up and if I, I think it's really easy to say, Hey, I'm not interested in as long as they like move on their way. I'm cool with that. It's where I think they, to the point, cross the boundary, but I think like asking for an Instagram or saying like, Hey, I see you in here a lot definitely doesn't bother me in any way. Like, wow yeah.
00:49:11
Speaker
That's impressive. i well i think I think I've asked for, well, I there was somebody i i think I asked for a woman's Instagram. I'm not a big social media person, um but I think I asked for a woman's Instagram once, but genuinely because like I could tell that she was an influencer.
00:49:27
Speaker
and I was just like, I see you in here. You do really good work. like Can I follow you? and It was just genuinely because I wanted to see the stuff she was working on because like yeah she was in there and there's like it's like a another guy was following me around with like ah like a camera rig. like Literally, she was making content. um yeah and like I used to work at Equinox and I would say that a lot of people are you're not paying the price tag of Equinox just for the gym equipment. It does have a much more social feel to it and people hang out and they work on their laptops. And so you are building community. And I also think like that's like a perfect place where people would just meet other people and you know, okay, hey, you're paying
00:50:13
Speaker
$400 a month for the gym. So you obviously take this seriously. like You probably have a decent job. like There's probably some sort of common ground here. and ah get Also, I think ah maybe like a lot of people who are that focused on fitness and interested in that,
00:50:31
Speaker
I mean, no one's really, we have like this idea, like no one's ever approaching me at the grocery store. Like, you know, it's like also where else do you meet someone if you aren't going out drinking and you're like, Hey, I live a healthy lifestyle and do all of this stuff. I don't know. I just think you can't be that picky about where I think in general, like I'm just like, I wish people approach people more in person. yeah So as long as it's done with respect, like, yeah.
00:50:59
Speaker
Well, so the person who who ah ah ah let us connect is Charlotte Warren, who's got awesome content, ah peasant party podcast, shout out. her... her i like I really like her kind of a take take on um like approaching people, which is like... i um My interpretation of what she said is that like if you're approaching someone, don't approach them with the goal of like, okay, I have to get this person's number and I have to make them a romanticist's interest immediately. Like approach someone,
00:51:30
Speaker
with the with the goal of like, just get to know them a little bit, you know? Like, yeah because just because someone's wearing their cute matching outfit or because they seem like they have a cool vibe in the gym or whatever, um that doesn't tell you anything. Like, they could be they could be totally incompatible, have very different values. They could be not a match for you at all. So, oh yeah she you know, she pulls out her bullhorn and says, you know, go and talk to them, right? I love. um Okay, then, okay.
00:51:58
Speaker
Okay, approaching people in the gym. um ah i I thought that I invented this idea, but I did not. It was invented by this guy. I've heard it most from this guy named Matt Hussey. He's like a relationship. You heard of him? um ah So he has this idea of like the handkerchief drop, this idea that women can sort of like put out a signal to someone that they are open to that person making a move, which is a little like It's a little weird when you think about it because like, isn't then that kind of making a move? I don't know. But I'm wondering if you have thoughts about that. Like if you're in the gym, is there something that you do or something you can imagine yourself doing in the gym to let a guy know that you're, you know, 5% interested in him and would be okay if he would like came over and said hello or that kind of thing. You know what I mean? I guess I would just make eye contact. Okay. Yeah.
00:52:54
Speaker
Just like look at them until they block eyes. Yeah, and hold the eye contact. Yeah. Maybe give a little smile, but yeah yeah. Or like, come get water when I'm getting water. Like, hi. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah, I think I would just like make eye contact and not be afraid to like, okay. And just like hold it a little, maybe a second longer than you think. Yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
It's like, yeah yeah, little signals, yeah. I think, I kind of think that like during COVID, like during quarantine, we all sort of forgot how to real life a little bit, you know, we forgot how to interact with humans in real life. i When I talk to my girlfriends about about dating, some of them are totally fine on this front. I'm not, ah they when they flirt, like, you know it. um But I think some women like,
00:53:44
Speaker
ah um It can be a barrier. like it It can feel, it can fuel um yeah yeah, I want to have empathy for this. like It can feel ah shameful. there There can be an element of shame, I think, with flirting um or with like making it making a quote unquote move or like expressing interest and having it be unreciprocated. um Do you think, or I guess first of all, do you agree? And if you do agree, like how how widespread do you think that is? like How many women do you think are
00:54:17
Speaker
feeling um you know that barrier to, I don't want to say putting an effort, but that barrier to like dropping that handkerchief. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I feel like I'm terrible at flirting. ha Really? Yes. I find that so surprising. I feel like I just lean into, I don't know, I kind of just like let a man hit on me or just
00:54:46
Speaker
I'm not overly touchy or anything like that. I don't really like, especially if I don't know someone, I'm like, I don't want you to touch me. um and i am definitely like My roommate, I joke all the time where I am kind of someone who's like, I'm probably going to tease you. like That's how I flirt. If I'm like teasing you about something, then Then I would sit there. I'm like, I don't know how to... Actually, my ex-boyfriend literally had said, he's like he's like, yeah, you don't really flirt with me. He's like, I just flirt with you and you smile at me. I was like, I don't know. I think, ah because for me, you know if you look at like love languages almost. Sure.
00:55:27
Speaker
um words of affirmation is something that's hard for me. So like I feel like I can show people in a lot of other ways how I care about them, but if they are someone who like really needs me to like say those words,
00:55:44
Speaker
I don't know, it's just not what necessarily comes naturally to me. And so I feel like that kind of shows up in flirting where I'm like, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I'm not very good at flirting. I think I'm just kind of, if I'm being honest, I'm just kind of like, I just tease boys and then I'm like, okay. She's cute and mean to me. Hey, listen, they work in the first grade. Yeah.
00:56:11
Speaker
I mean, right. We all we all I mean, look, we're complicated creatures, right? You you you will express ah intention and express interest in, you know, whatever way works for you. Right. And I guess like, I don't know. But do you know what I mean, though? Like, like ah first of all, I think that's that's adorable. And and I would if I had to bet money and I got to like be a fly on the wall, I bet you're a better flirt than you let on here. But I totally hear what you're saying.
00:56:39
Speaker
um ah and do you do you though do you feel like Do you feel like there is that resistance for women where um it's just something it's a hard thing it's a hard like it's a hard thing to do? it doesn't It doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do to flirt or even to like sort of make that eye contact you near the water fountain. um i guess I guess I'm curious because that's not my experience. I'm a dude. like I don't know what it's like to walk in the shoes, but I'd be curious to know
00:57:12
Speaker
like Do you think that's true? Do you think a lot of women feel that way um or some or none? or You know what I mean?
Flirting Dynamics and Gender Roles
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think for sure. I think a lot of women feel that way. I think we're also all of these people that are talking to us about being in our feminine, right? Is that we're not supposed to make a move and we're supposed to sit back. And I'm not necessarily a believer in that at all. I always tell my girlfriends, I said, I think you shoot your shot once. You know, if there's someone that you think is cute and you put something out there,
00:57:44
Speaker
And if it's not reciprocated, okay, I'm not gonna do it again. yeah But like if there's like someone that I'm like, oh, I think they're kind of cute, I will shoot my shot once or I'll ask them, hey, do you wanna play pool with me? Or do you want this, wanna go play darts or something if I'm at the bar? um And just getting that vibe there. But yeah, I think a lot of women, obviously we don't wanna get shut down.
00:58:08
Speaker
yeah nobody right i I think a lot of people don't want to get shut down. So ah it kind of um all just goes back to that a little bit of like, and we haven't even met, we've hit on this in so many ways, but like that masculine feminine dichotomy of like, well, we want to be pursued um and letting that happen, right? Because I think a lot of us, I think a lot of times as women, we think, well, if the guy was interested, he would say something. Yeah, if he wanted to, he would, right? Yeah. um Yeah, okay, we so we are our our last topic is is apps versus real life, but um let's talk about pursuit. I think i think that kind is connected here. um right because i think Correct me if you think if you disagree, but like yeah, I think a lot of women like need to feel pursued in order to feel that like spark in their heart. that like Again, that magical chemistry that like you just need to feel that to to feel, I think,
00:59:05
Speaker
um that romantic thing, you know? um And not not even talking about, like, a lot of people will talk about, like, limerence or, like, early butterflies or, like, early excitement when something is, like, um you know, like a lot of, like, mental health stuff around, like, trauma stuff or, you know, like, sometimes you can get excited about someone because of reasons that are kind of point to things that you maybe need to work through or whatever. I'm talking about that. I'm talking about, like,
00:59:32
Speaker
the genuine seed of something that can be romantic and long-term and beautiful and wonderful that I think if we're lucky, we've experienced at least once. But like I believe it's there and possible for, I believe everybody, totally unfounded, totally faith-based thing. But like yeah, i think I think if you do the work, if you're moving towards it, if you're and it takes a little bit of luck, right but like you will find that that beautiful, magical thing.
00:59:56
Speaker
And I would say that a lot a lot of women need to feel pursued to feel that thing. And I think a lot of men need to feel like the pursuer to feel that that thing. right for I think for a lot of men, and i maybe there's an imbalance there. And this might just be me, but like I think there are men who cannot feel that romantic spark if they feel like the woman is the one doing the pursuing, right? If they feel like the woman is the one, do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I feel like I just told that that guy who was like, you're not, he was like, I'm not in my masculine. And I was like, you know, and I definitely was not pursuing it in any way, but I think that whatever it it was about my energy didn't like that turned him off about it. yeah um He wanted to be the one driving the car or whatever, or he he had to feel like he was the one
01:00:46
Speaker
ah driving the car is maybe a bad analogy, but like there I think there's something chemical. right and and And again, I think it's it's weird because like in my head, again, I want someone who is choosing me because she is choosing me and because she has the option. and And I want a world where women have agency because I don't want to be i don't want someone to feel like they're with me because they're trapped. right um And earlier on, you mentioned like sort of control versus care. like Having a partner feeling like you're controlling your partner. For for men, I think feeling feeling like they are controlling a partner, feeling like they have power over whether or not she leaves, which is to say feeling like they have power over whether or not they become lonely.
01:01:28
Speaker
right Because I think for a lot of men, a woman is the only thing keeping them from facing, I think, crippling loneliness, which a lot of us, I think i think all of us, if we're honest, are like at our core lonely because we just don't live in a world that's set up for us to have that many close people, to have community. um Anyway, sorry, that was kind of a hard left rabbit hole, but you know what I mean? like i think i think
01:01:54
Speaker
yeah Again, it's that weird thing where I think we're navigating a time when we want a world where men and women have the same agency and yet to feel that magical romance, I think it is true that like men need to feel like pursuers a lot of the time and women need to feel pursued. And like we're figuring out like how do we do that? like How do we how do we have have everyone having the agency that they're that they deserve because they're human beings who deserve agency?
01:02:23
Speaker
and at the same time finding that beautiful romantic thing. And and and i i don't think they're I don't think those things are in conflict. i think I believe it is possible to do that. And I think we're just kind of like think we're just culturally in this interesting place where we're kind of learning learning to do that dance in a different way. We're learning a different way to approach courtship, to approach romance. and I don't really know where I'm going with that, but yeah.
01:02:50
Speaker
I mean, I think it just goes back to so much of the dating advice that we get, and people are like, do this, do that. This is the right way to go about it. This is the right way to get pursued. And ultimately, I think a lot of people just need to sit back and say, well, what feels right to you?
01:03:04
Speaker
you know, then stop listening to all of these like different things. But like what actually feels right for you to do? Yeah. And what do you feel comfortable with? Because like I can look back at like, you know, that situation, the dating situation dynamic that just ended. And I would say in over the course of three months,
01:03:27
Speaker
I initiated two to three of our hangouts. And to me, that's very little. Like I would say, you know, I'd be like, Hey, you know what? You're driving. I had been like, hey, you want to come over for dinner like one night. like I think that's very little. But if even for that person, that's too much for him, like he wants to always be initiating it, then I'm also, to the point, I'm not your person because I am going to, hey, I have ideas of what we want to do. like I'm probably never, honestly, as a girl, I'm probably never going to and plan the date that's like
01:04:01
Speaker
a romantic dinner and a reservation if it's not your birthday or something like that. But yeah I am like, oh, there's this activity. There's a concert. like There's something I want to go do. Do you want to come do this with me? yeah And I want to be in a dynamic where I'm comfortable to ask that person and to initiate that and be like, okay, i you know I'll get tickets for this.
01:04:23
Speaker
and Having that like play by play, but like I don't know one of the things I kind of keep myself too early on is like I do feel like if they've planned like the first three dates Then the next one, like I will maybe try to come up with something. because i also don't like I want to be pursued, but I also, to that point, don't want this to feel like you're the one that has to do all of the work. and i want you Especially if there's someone I like, then I want to be able to say, hey, like I am interested in you too. like I'm not going to make you do all the work. like I want a partnership. yeah so I'll show up in this way as well. i i mean I'm not sure if I'm a weirdo here. but like
01:05:06
Speaker
i really want that in in a partner in a romantic connection like i really i don't i will always make a plan um i would i mean i would advise men in general when you're dating somebody whether you've met in real life or met on the app or whatever i i have like a ah not a system. I don't want to make make it sound like a machine or whatever, but like I know what I'm doing when I'm saying like, Hey, you seem really cool. I've enjoyed our conversation. You want to continue this over a lunch or dinner or drinks or like whatever sounds, you know, whatever seems appropriate to a propose and whatever. Like I will make the plan and I think it's, and yeah, that, that is like a quote unquote masculine role there, but like, but that said, um,
01:05:48
Speaker
in a relationship when something sort of becomes a relationship, becomes an actual like, okay, were we're watering this and giving it sunlight to see what grows. When that starts happening, I really do want her to propose things, to say like, oh, I want to go do this thing. yeah And to initiate time hanging out, even if it's just like, hey, let's like, it's been a long day, let's just like order in and like watch ah TV.
01:06:14
Speaker
Um, I, for me, I need to feel like she's making, she's making those bids for connection because that for me helps me feel like, okay, she does want to do
Intentions and Reciprocity in Dating
01:06:24
Speaker
this. She's not just saying yes when I ask because like, I don't know. I think a lot of people, and this is a broad generalization, but I think a lot of women like just have a hard time saying no to like anything because we socialize women to be like compliant and to be like, you know,
01:06:43
Speaker
so so sociable. Is that the right word? You know what I mean? So, I i think there are there are certainly men who do this too, but there are women who like their social calendar is just packed because they've got people in their lives and people want to do stuff and like saying no feels like a thing you're not supposed to do, you know? And I think more men are just very comfortable like not responding to the group chat when somebody says, hey, let's hang out and go do this thing. And you're like not feeling like it. You just go like, you know, leave it, leave that on red. um Anyway, which is all to say, I don't think I'm a weirdo here. I i do, maybe I am, I don't know. I i i do think men,
01:07:23
Speaker
Well, but but maybe the astronaut guy you're just talking about is an example of this not being true. But I think men do want to feel like their partner is is is demonstrating that they're dedicating time, right? Like your time is kind of the most valuable thing you have, I think in life and in dating, right?
01:07:44
Speaker
Does that make sense? or Or am I wrong? Like, do you feel like men? I mean, and at some point, I don't know that I can't read that guy's mind, but um yeah I asked through, of I think I initiated three different times and we actually never did anything. Any of the times I had said, Hey, let's do this. Or do you want to do this?
01:08:01
Speaker
we never did it, which is also I was like, yeah, maybe he really didn't like that. I would ask, but I was like, that's not like, they were literally like, I asked him like, Hey, do you want to come over and I'll cook dinner? And then I had like one date idea and then we never did it. And like, he would go on and plan his own date after and like, do it. So I was like, Hey, I can do this. I can plan something. Um, that's wild. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like I have no idea. Whatever. Maybe it was something else. I'm completely off track there, but,
01:08:30
Speaker
I think that especially I am not going to ask a man on the first date. like That is not. right I might drop a hint and say, hey, I want you to ask me out, but like yeah you can ask me out then. I'm not planning that.
01:08:49
Speaker
yeah so yeah and um and Just to freaking hammer this nail one more time, but like it is that because you need to feel that pursuit? you need to feel like In order to feel the possibility for that romantic connection, you need the dude to be like, hey, I want to ask you out. Here's the restaurant. Here's the time. Does that work? Right? I think that's part of it. I think the other thing that comes into play a little bit is like almost the concept of hookup culture where I want someone that's ah going to actually put some effort in. And obviously there's still guys who they're going to plan a date just to get what they want kind of thing. But right especially when, especially I feel like when I'm meeting people in person and like through mutual friends and stuff, and I'm just like, well, no, you can ask me out. And if that's what you want, otherwise like, sure, we'll keep running into each other.
01:09:44
Speaker
you know, through our friends or anything like that. But I also think it's just something to say, okay, I know what I'm looking for. I am looking to be in a relationship. And a lot of times, I think the people who have no interest in being in a relationship, they're never gonna actually take you out. and They're never gonna actually make that move. And so if I can just kind of weed a couple people out that way, then that helps too.
01:10:07
Speaker
I mean, i listen, okay, let's let's get into this. ah i Let's be explicit about it, right? Like there are men who want sex. hu There are men who like they wanna be in situations where you've both had maybe one or two drinks or whatever, or are are are in whatever vibe or mindset where it's like, oh, hey, when it's time to kind of like call it a night, maybe I can say, hey, my place are yours kind of thing, right? Like they want to navigate whatever that playbook is that will get them to have physical intimacy. I would i would i think it's and think it's worth noting here or or something that I think is is interesting here is that I do think it is true that men are socialized to ah to see sex, physical intimacy, as like the only viable or the only acceptable ah pathway to intimacy. right i think I think men,
01:10:55
Speaker
um we are ah we're not we're told that we shouldn't be... Again, we're we're not comfortable speaking vulnerably with other men. um Even with a other women, it's easier to speak vulnerably, but like less so. like Showing vulnerability is a thing that we're told is bad. we're We're told it's weak. We're told it's not not being a provider, not being a protector. right Um, and so yeah, I think, I think a lot of dudes, um I kind of have a hot take that like, there's no such thing as a fuck boy. And I'm probably wrong, but like, I think there are just men who like don't have any other outlet to meet that need other than
01:11:33
Speaker
getting drunk enough, getting someone else drunk enough or whatever to hook up and make out. And like that that need is just something they that that they don't know how to... I mean, I say they, we, I've certainly been there, like in my younger self. I'd like to think I've worked on this, but right. I think i think because we are socialized that way, like just hooking up is such a freaking huge deal for men. And i think i think we I think society kind of socializes women to um see intimacy as a thing that you um yeah barter for like having your other needs met, right? To like make make you sort of conform to that traditional setup where the dude is the provider and like the actual member of society and you are valid by virtue of being attached to him and like attending to him. Is that totally bananas? Does that does that ring true to you?
01:12:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think going back to, I think a fuck boy is someone who's not honest about what they want. Like that to me. you know If you're gonna come out here and you're gonna say, hey, this is what I'm looking for, I just wanna hook up, whatever. yeah I'm not your girl, but as long as you're honest about it, I think it's the guys that ah don't wanna be honest and they wanna have their cake and eat it too. And to me, that's like what makes someone a fuck boy. I also think that,
01:12:57
Speaker
within intimacy. I think it's really hard as a woman to balance Because I think no matter what you do, we're criticized, right? If we are hundred not putting out, then we're approved. If we are open with our sexuality, then we're a slut. And I am someone who is like, I have a very high sex drive. I really enjoy like, I enjoy intimacy. I also know myself enough though, that I'm going to get attached to someone.
01:13:29
Speaker
And I am going to have that like different expectations of, yeah, you better be texting me back if you just told me naked last night. like That changes things to me. And I've also just had a point in my life where I think that sex is absolutely best with someone that you are vulnerable, that you trust, that like you can feel comfortable with, than to just have like, OK,
01:13:56
Speaker
random standard sex with some guy that I don't know. I'm like, that's not fulfilling to me versus like looking at intimacy as a part of creating a deeper connection. And. Agree, big agree. Yeah. I think it's like, so, I mean, honestly, like last weekend I made out with this guy and all of my whole friend group was like, thought that he like walked me up to a, he was out in my apartment. He walked me up to bed and our whole friend group was like, Oh, did you hear from him? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, he was like, he has my number. I told him he wanted to take me out.
01:14:26
Speaker
And that was like, my whole group was like, oh, you didn't sleep with him. And I said, no. I said, he walked me to bed. I said, you can go. And I was like, if you want to take me out, you can take me out. yeah And to the point I haven't heard from him again. And I was like, yeah, I'm very glad that I didn't just like let some guy sleep over that I don't know. And then was probably not going to text me. And then I would feel like shit about myself. yeah So it's like, if I can just kind of like hold off on that, I think that I don't think that like there's a right or wrong to having sex too early. I think that whatever the guy wants, he's he's going to bail after the first date or the fifth date. It's the same thing. But I just think it makes things around emotions and expectations more complicated whenever you introduce that. I agree. I mean, yeah, definitely agree.
01:15:16
Speaker
um Well, I mean, okay, we can we can obviously talk about sex forever. But I think I initially kind of like went down this rabbit hole, because, you know, you were saying like, ah in terms of what you're looking for, and forgive me, am I forgetting this, but but you know, one minute ago, you were saying, you know, you're you are trying to figure out, you're trying to to basically filter out the people who are not ready to ah who who are not at a stage where they're looking for
01:15:47
Speaker
a relationship where they're just sort of in that place where they're looking for sex. um And then I kind of went down my hole like there's no fuck boys around at all. I guess if if there was if there's more that's top of mind for you about like how you're looking for what you're looking for, trying to find that like long-term relationship thing, definitely interested in that. um
Comparing Dating Apps and Real-Life Encounters
01:16:08
Speaker
But the the the third topic that we kind of had on the on on the board here is sort of like meeting people in apps versus meeting people in real life, which is obviously a massive topic. um But yeah, I guess I just wanted to pass pass the mic to you there. like Is there anything that's top of mind there for you? or Yeah. I just hate, I know we I had kind of mentioned that there are some
01:16:31
Speaker
obviously disadvantages, I think, to both. And I just hate all of the hate that like people get for being on dating apps. The amount of times where I'm like, oh, this happened and this story. And they're like, get off the apps. Get off the apps. This is because you're on the apps. like It's so much better to meet people in real life. And I just don't think that's like a helpful conversation to have people who are trying to date and understanding that there are negatives to both. And I also think that just dating apps are part of kind of society right now. I think that
01:17:11
Speaker
Listen, if you I always say I'm like, if you wanted a new job, you would probably go to both in-person networking events and you would be on LinkedIn. right And we can't sit here and be like, well, my grandpa got his job and they didn't have LinkedIn. like We would never say that, but we have no problem sitting here and saying, well, my grandpa and grandma met in real life and they didn't have dating apps. Things are so different and it is part of technology and the way that it is just have people behave now and the same people that you're meeting on in person, it's the same people that are on the apps. Like it's not like these people that you meet on the apps are not like an in like they're around like it's just helping you to facilitate maybe meeting someone that you wouldn't just naturally run into.
01:18:01
Speaker
like completely by chance. yeah And yeah, I mean, honestly, like date the people I've dated that I've met in real life has caused a whole lot more drama and issues in my life than the people that I've dated on the apps. OK, again, there's a lot in in all of that. um Yeah. A question for you. So so you're saying like people people like hating on the apps. i went i back Back when I was on TikTok, which is like years and years ago, um ah and starting to sort of figure out what making content about this look like.
01:18:31
Speaker
ah my My big thing was like get off the apps. I was so anti-apps and then all of my, everything that I would talk about is like how to survive the apps, right? Like basically my whole my whole thesis was like the apps are are are, they make it so hard to find actual connection. they're theyre um And you talked about this on a recent pod. They are like designed to keep you on there. They are not designed to forge connection. They are designed to turn a profit. um You can look at all the data. They're there they're You know, profitability is actually going down right now. They're having a hard time, but they're very profitable and their aim is to stay profitable whenever. So I'm definitely guilty of like hating on the apps. All that to say, my question is, do you feel like there is a greater stigma for women being on the apps than for men being on the apps? I feel like there is, but I'd be interested to hear your take.
01:19:28
Speaker
I don't know. OK.
01:19:37
Speaker
I felt like a different stigma for men versus women on the apps, but I think one of the big things, I know this wasn't the direct question, but going back to kind of what you're saying is it's really a tool and I think it's all about how you use it and if you can go on there and be healthy about it.
01:19:56
Speaker
So I think that it's people who are spending way too much time swiping. I think it's people who want to use it as a way of thinking, oh, well, there's just, you know, there's always another option out there, right? Like that can grow into a bad mindset or utilize, you know, the grass is always greener. But I think if you go on there and you're really cognizant about the energy that you put into it, how much time you're spending swiping, like the conversations that you're having and having them be like poignant and not using it as something to just fill a void, which unfortunately a lot of people do. yeah I think that's what's important is like trying to use it in a healthy way. and I think that can make a really big difference.
01:20:40
Speaker
but um I don't know. I'm just like, you know what? like my brother My sister and my brother-in-law met on Bumble yeah and my cousin and her husband met on The League. and Those are two of probably the best, healthiest relationships that I've ever seen in my life. and so Obviously, there's a chance that something won't work out, but I'm like,
01:21:05
Speaker
i you know i'm also I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket. I still go out. I still try to meet people in person. I would love to meet someone in person, but I'm also not going to say like, oh, nothing good ever comes from the apps. Yeah. do you feel like um ah so Do you feel like the apps are... i think I do think it's true that many people use the apps compulsively. I think they are designed yeah to be addictive.
01:21:31
Speaker
Do you do you think that they are? And I think they are more. I think men fall into that trap more than women. I think. Would you agree? I mean, I would say, yeah, I would say that. And then I think that as a woman, I am able to use it a little bit like I'm not going to lie selfishly in the fact that I don't swipe on them. Right. So long hinge, right?
01:21:57
Speaker
I don't go on and I don't swipe on hinge. I don't send likes. And so I know that that's kind of like playing into the fact that like I'll be pursued, but like I go on and I usually just have likes being sent to me from men. And so I know that that's like, I know that's kind of like for me to sit and say, okay, like that's a little bit selfish or, you know, playing into the male-female dichotomy. but I don't think so, but yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Because I was like, I feel bad. i I'm like, I'm not sending, I don't really send men likes. I don't think you should feel bad about that, but yeah, keep going. It's super easy for me to go in and just like, I look at the likes I've gotten and I'm not sitting there swiping, looking for the next person. So I'm not sitting there just like shopping through men in any way.
01:22:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah ah Logan Urie who wrote ah How to Not Die Alone or how to and whatever. She used to work at ah Facebook and she's got a she's a you know relationship dating app kind of thought leader person. and she called She calls it relation shopping. um I don' know but you know that that that and think that can be a trap for women where you just feel like you're shopping for a relationship and it feels like you're shopping on shoppping for clothes right yeah on on your phone.
01:23:12
Speaker
ah yeah Okay, I do not think that you should feel bad about using the app that way. um And there's a whole, as a whole <unk>s let's put a pin in that for a sec. I think, so i basically, i think I think it's like classic psychology why the dating apps are more compulsive for men, um because i think I think it's just more sporadic reward, right? I think because of, well, I guess this does get into that pin, because there's this thing I think called, I call this like the gender imbalance. I'm sure somebody's smarter, <unk>ll say something smarter, but like
01:23:43
Speaker
you know, the the dating apps are very opaque about their data, but the data that does come out, I think points to there being somewhere between three women, I'm sorry, three men for every woman to like, honestly, 10 men for every woman on the dating apps, because for a lot of reasons, women just aren't on the apps. um And I think they're perfectly valid reasons, but like, um yeah, there's there's just... So, so you know,
01:24:10
Speaker
ah yeah It's just true that like women get more likes than men on the dating apps, and that's yeah it's not because like it's um i mean you're you're a very attractive person. I'm sure that if even if it was 50-50, you would get a lot of likes. But like I think in general, men feel like the apps don't work for them because it's a long, long, long, long time before you get any kind of response, before you get any kind of before you get a match, right?
01:24:33
Speaker
um and And I think that's mostly driven just by the numbers. I think they're in general and dating in general, there are a smaller pool of women who are looking to date than the pool of men looking to date because of things like age gap dating because of, I mentioned before Rebecca Tracer, like a lot of women are just opting out of relationships because they're not the the kind of relationship that's going to be a net positive to them is just not on offer in the dating market. right there are Anyway, I think there are a lot of trends that discourage women from entering the dating market, um or at least the women that men are trying to match with, which I think you know men dating younger women, sometimes extremely younger, but like I think the general trend of
01:25:19
Speaker
men feel much more comfortable dating someone who is five years younger than them. I think that trend means that like women who are past a certain age, I don't know. it's ah It's unfair and it's awful, but like we live in a society, I think, that like values women for being, frankly, young and men for being successful, right? So I think the digging pool. Anyway, all that to say, I don't think it's bad for you to use the app that way. I think that's i think the apps are, well,
01:25:48
Speaker
there's not much the apps can do about that. The problem of the app is that there are you know however many thousand men in the Austin area who are swiping a whole bunch and and the women who are on the app using the app are going to have a large amount of inbound bids for their attention, whether it's likes or messages or super nudges or whatever the apps are calling it. right ah So yeah, I think it's all that to say. I think it's perfectly natural for you for you to use the app that way. And I think but this kind of gets to the one of the big core things that that I think is important is that like dating is really, really hard for men and for women in very different ways. And I think we can really often kind of miss that about each other's experiences. And that's really harmful, I think. Or rather, we are better served if we understand how it's difficult for the other side. Does that make sense?
Dating Profiles and Effort
01:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, um you hit on a couple different things. that It's funny because I'm like 35. And God, I don't know the last time I went on a date with a guy that was like, not 30. I'm like, I thought I was supposed to be like, I thought I was supposed to be, you know, old. But honestly, like all these men that are like 28, 30, like, I mean, not a huge age gap, but they're like,
01:27:06
Speaker
oh Like that's always who's like sending you matches and stuff and I'm like supposedly I'm supposed to be like aging out of this I'm like, I don't know what's going on. Oh, so you're so you're dating almost. I never been Yeah, I can't tell you the last time I went on a date with the guy who was older than me. That's awesome. I mean, maybe it's all i not I don't know I mean definitely I've definitely been like anyone under 30 is just a no at this point yeah um but It is just like kind of weird. I'm like, where where are the men who are like 35 to 40 that are my age? I don't know. I don't really match with them. I don't get hit on any anyone by that age. It's been really interesting. um That is wild to me. That's surprising to me. OK. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people have like they will think like, oh, you seem you. I wouldn't guess that you're 35, but it still says I'm 35 on the dating apps. I don't know. These like I over I ran into this guy.
01:28:03
Speaker
who was 21 and was trying to take me on a date. And I was just like, absolutely absolutely not. And he was like, I think it's kind of hot. And I was like, no, I was like, this is creepy. I have no interest in spending my time with a 21 year old dude. Like we would have no. What are you going to talk about? Yeah. Yeah. He like followed me on Instagram. I'm like, you like skateboard and I don't know, just like.
01:28:27
Speaker
That's like all you do. you Like you're still in college. Like that's not, that's not going to work. Um, so it's been really interesting. I would say like my experience within that has been definitely dating a lot, like mostly, mostly all men that were younger than me. Um, and then genuinely surprising to me. ah Interesting. Okay. Yeah, no, keep going. Uh, I think the other thing that honestly though is so frustrating,
01:28:53
Speaker
with men on dating apps is just also the lack of any effort put into them. I think that there is just, I'm like, all right, you're gonna give me a one word answer on a prompt, or you're gonna post a picture with you and 12 dudes, like I'm somehow supposed to figure out which one you are. yeah And also just like, this is a random thing I've been on lately, but it's just like,
01:29:22
Speaker
why are there so many men who just like don't wash, like they don't do, it feels there's so many men that does don't take care of like basic hygiene. And I'm like, as a woman, i like literally like i'm like I put makeup on, I do my hair all the time, I like i wear an outfit, and I'm like, you guys haven't like trimmed your beard, or like you're like, like yeah I don't know, and like you can just kind of,
01:29:49
Speaker
just see that ultimately, I think it's crazy of for us to say that you don't have to have, especially within the dating apps, when you're swiping on someone from a picture, you have to look presentable. Like, I'm not going to, we can't lie about that. yeah So I think just putting a little bit of effort into, I mean, how you present yourself. Yeah. Like you know get it go have a friend, take a picture.
01:30:17
Speaker
you know, go figure out something or, you know, give me a little bit more of an answer on a prompt. yeah Um, so I think that is where, versus like, I know a lot of my girlfriends put, they're like, Oh my gosh, like we'll like get it together and we'll talk about it. We're like, should I put this picture or that picture? Like what's your prompt? Like, and I was like, Oh, I've had this prompt. It's been working really well where we're like trying to actively yeah have a good,
01:30:47
Speaker
have a good profile that's going to like lead to someone to get a good understanding of me versus... And I'm sure there are women who don't either, but you know when you're swiping and I'm looking, I would say the majority of people who are sending me likes, I'm like, you have nothing nothing in here. yeah And so... No, I think that's... you hear that I hear that all the time for women, right? like Why aren't men on the app spending effort? And and also,
01:31:13
Speaker
in real life, why aren't men putting an effort? I think, okay, so my hot take on this is that it's different for men and for women, but I would strongly encourage everyone to, if you're going to use the apps, put like as much effort as possible into having your app as best as it can be. And it's going to be flawed because it's like five pictures and some blurbs, but like as best as possible, try and represent yourself on the app.
01:31:36
Speaker
I mean, I would say even try to be a little bit vulnerable, but like really try to give someone as best as you can and it's going to be flawed. Yeah. But give someone some kind of perspective on who you are. And for men, I would say do that for exactly the reason you're talking about is that you're going to be one of I think you mentioned on a podcast, it's like you have 25 likes just like camping out and or maybe you just said that, but like every woman has has like, I went on lovely a lovely, lovely date with a woman named Taylor who like literally showed me her 9,999 likes. She had like capped out the number on Hinge for likes. And she'd been on there for a while and she's very, very attractive and she's in San Francisco, whole thing. But like, you know, she was like,
01:32:19
Speaker
yeah yeah Women on the apps have a ton of options and I think it's important for men to sort of like understand that gender imbalance or to understand just like that's the playing field. The apps do not go out of their way to help you understand this um because you would stop paying for them.
01:32:35
Speaker
but like and think men I think it's really important to put a lot of effort into your profile because in the like three seconds that someone is going to look at your profile, you need them to understand who you are so that they'll look at it a little more, so that they'll be interested. right And only and you know only interested if they would genuinely be interested in you because you don't want to match with someone just because they think you're like,
01:33:00
Speaker
a 10 or or like yeah generically attractive. you want You want someone to like you because they might actually like you. And and again, totally acknowledging that's really, really, really freaking hard on dating apps because you know barrier to entry is a thing. The dating apps want to make it as easy as possible for you to create a profile because they want users because that's how they make money.
01:33:22
Speaker
so Yeah, they're hard, that's so difficult, but for for forget for men, I strongly encourage men to be as vulnerable as you can be, you know as this feels appropriate, and put your best foot forward, put effort into it. Yeah, get friends, take pictures of you. Dudes, we we never we never get in front of a camera, right? I think there's the whole fish pic thing. I'm sure this is big in Austin. like The guys with the fish pics. My theory on fish pics is that that it's just that's just the last time somebody pointed an expensive camera at that dude.
01:33:52
Speaker
Like you got on a fishing trip, and there's the guy there who's going to sell you, you know, for 20 bucks, the the photo of you holding that big old fish that you caught or whatever, because they went like, yeah. and And I think that's why that picture shows up so much is because it's just the last time somebody took like a decent picture of you, you're out doing something, you probably have a genuine smile on your face. And like, you know, you're doing something it shows a hobby. Yeah, yeah you you have activities, you don't just stay at home and play video games, all yeah which is like, you know, honestly, probably what a lot of us do. But like, you know, like,
01:34:20
Speaker
Anyway, the effort, yeah. The other side of that, I would say for women, I still strongly encourage women to put a lot of effort into your dating app profile because you want women, I feel like in in dating in general and as certainly on the apps, I think a lot of women feel like they're looking for a needle in a haystack, right?
01:34:39
Speaker
um There was this New York Times article, I gotta i gotta to find it because I forget the author's name. But this woman was writing about this and she was saying that her approach is to just like burn the haystack. She's like, make your profile, and and I really agree with this, make your profile a profile that is going to weed out as many of the dudes as possible that you do not want to see on the app. Because the problem for women is yeah, sorting through that haystack.
01:35:06
Speaker
um And so I i encourage women, we know if if they wanna take my two cents on this, I encourage women to, yeah, really put that effort in, say the things about you that like are gonna turn off the guys who are not for you. like i'm I'm sure for you, you've got it on there that you're liberal, right? Try and scare away those guys who are Trump voters or whatever, because they're that's just wasting your time. like your The moments you waste, even if you're like you know swiping on the toilet, it's still a wasted moment for you to be there and be like, no, left swipe, this is not somebody I want.
Conclusion and Future Plans
01:35:35
Speaker
um Yeah, anyway, all I have to say, I encourage everyone to like put effort into that because like it is crude, it's not easy. And I think for women, they feel like even if they do put an effort, they still are just going to get like a deluge of of men that are not matches. And for men, they feel like even if they put in a lot of effort, they're still going to be like waiting weeks until their first match or whatever, depending on like who they're swiping on and that kind of stuff. yeah um But no, I think i think it's worth the like it's worth it to put in to put in that effort.
01:36:09
Speaker
Um, okay. All right. Justine, we have been on the phone for an hour and a half. Thank you so much for all of your time. Was there anything else that we talked about or anything else bouncing around that you wanted to, that you wanted to dig dig in on here?
01:36:22
Speaker
No, I think we covered a lot. Okay. I really have genuinely enjoyed this a lot. If you ever want to talk some more, let me know. I'm sure there's a bunch of other stuff we can talk about. um Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for for making the time and for chatting with me, um for everybody listening. She's JustFitJustine on Instagram. Her podcast is called Villain Era, and I'll put a link to her coaching, ah fitness and nutrition coaching ah in the description thing here. This has been awesome. Justine, thank you so much. Yeah.
01:36:52
Speaker
Thank you.
01:36:59
Speaker
Thanks everybody for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I ah i thought it was a really cool one and and I really do. I always say this, but I do genuinely hope that we get the but get to chat again. Justine, thank you so much for coming on the show and for chatting, for taking the time. I really appreciate it. um I am so I am I'm gonna I'm gonna put this on here just to kind of make it real to to keep myself accountable if i I talk about it on here I'll i'll have to do it um I am I'm gonna try to put together a like a YouTube video series to see if I can kind of
01:37:37
Speaker
kind of coalesce all the kind of ideas I have about like what I would tell someone about modern dating, especially men. like what i would The advice that I would sort of give to men who are out there ah trying to date. I'm gonna try to put that together into a YouTube series. um I don't know if this is gonna make it onto a video thing anywhere, um but I'm thinking that maybe some of the some of the conversations that I have over the next few months um in doing this podcast might make their way into that series um just because as I'm sort of stringing these ideas together and trying to kind of like solidify how I think this works or what advice I would give or or really just as I try and
01:38:24
Speaker
model a conversation as I try to model men approaching this stuff with vulnerability and and, you know, trying to figure out a new way forward for for men in dating. I think using kind of snippets from these conversations um ah that I've had for the podcast will be useful. So anyway, I'm just putting out that out there so that I have to do it. I don't know.
01:38:53
Speaker
how it'll go. I don't know if it'll be popular. I'm probably not going to spend a lot of time in it for promoting it, but I don't know. I think that's kind of the next step in this little passion project podcast thing. I mean, if you're listening, this was a long one. If you're still listening, I really appreciate you. um You can um you can always reach me at wish you all the best pod at gmail dot.com ah and on Instagram at wish you all the best pod.
01:39:20
Speaker
um That's what I've got for this one. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening.