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Faith & Fertility: Reconciling God, Science, and Surrogacy
67 Plays24 days ago
Faith and fertility aren’t opposites — they can work together to create new life. 🌿
Whitney talks with Pamela Brantley Dunnings — attorney, theologian, cancer survivor, and mother of twins through surrogacy — about how God can work through science to build families with love, grace, and purpose. A conversation about hope, ethics, and the miracles that happen when faith meets fertility.
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Transcript
Pamela's Journey with Cancer and Surrogacy
00:00:00
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um I was diagnosed with breast cancer a few days after I turned 30, so very unexpected. um But before I started cancer treatments, I froze um embryos knowing that I wanted children someday.
00:00:12
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Because of complications related to the cancer diagnosis, we did end up using a surrogate to carry our children. And it was an amazing experience.
00:00:22
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You know, as far as like faith goes, I named my son Isaac because like Abraham and Sarah's son, I think he was my long awaited miracle sons. That's Pamela, an attorney and theologian whose story weaves together medicine, miracles, and motherhood.
00:00:41
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And full disclosure, she's also someone who's deeply special to me. I was her second surrogate and our journey together changed the way i see faith and family and what's possible when the two meet.
00:00:53
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When her diagnosis forced her to trust both science and faith, she discovered that the two were never meant to be at odds. and Throughout the Old and New Testament, we see God calling people to serve.
00:01:05
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to take action, to implement God's will and plans. And in each person, God sees something special that that particular person has to offer. Being a surrogate or an egg donor is a very special calling.
00:01:18
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um God is using normal women, just like you and me, for this kind of very extraordinary purpose.
Reconciling Science and Spirituality
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In this conversation, Pamela shares how her faith deepened through her journey with cancer and surrogacy and how she believes God can work through the technology, compassion, and human hands.
00:01:38
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The gifts of grace of sort of the intelligence and the innovation, they're so evident in kind of the the world of reproductive technology, right? Yeah. And I think we're meant to use the gifts that God has given us for good.
00:01:53
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And I personally, and I'm probably very biased, um'm a little anything more in line with, you know, God's goodness than helping people build a family.
Whitney's Role in Surrogacy Solutions
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For anyone who's ever wrestled with how belief fits into the modern world of reproductive medicine, this episode is an invitation to hold both science and spirit, grief and grace.
00:02:17
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God brings good out of horrible situations. um my children, the child who was born from the embryo that I donated, my friendship with you.
00:02:28
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You know, all of these are just such beautiful things that God made possible. In this episode, you'll hear how faith and fertility can coexist, how compassion, innovation, and belief can come together to create miracles in modern parenthood.
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This is Faith and Fertility, Reconciling God, Science, and Surrogacy. Enjoy! Who knew it could take more than two people to have a baby?
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I'm Whitney Hall, a two-time surrogate, now part of the team at Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions. And I've seen how life-changing this process can be when you feel informed, supported, and confident about your next step.
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Each week on Create a Happy Family, you'll hear real stories and expert insights from hopeful parents, surrogates, egg donors, and professionals, all to help you understand what it really takes to create a family in this way.
00:03:26
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Because at the heart of it all, we're creating happy families, one relationship at a time.
00:03:36
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Okay, Pamela, I've just been so excited to have this conversation with you because you bring such a unique perspective with your background in both law and theology, but also because surrogacy was part of your path to parenthood, which I was lucky enough to get to be a part of.
Faith and Scientific Advances in Parenthood
00:03:56
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um But can you start sharing just a little bit about just your own family journey and how faith kind of played a role throughout? Yeah, absolutely, Whitney. And thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I've been so excited.
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um So as you know, um i was diagnosed with breast cancer a few days after I turned 30. So very unexpected, kind of a very difficult period in my life. But it was also so a a time in my life where my own faith grew and was strengthened.
00:04:27
Speaker
know, I always say during this time, the gospel came alive for me in a way that never had before. um But before I started cancer treatments, I froze um embryos knowing that I wanted children someday.
00:04:42
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And as Whitney knows too well because she was my surrogate.
00:04:48
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We, because of complications related to the cancer diagnosis, we did end up using a surrogate to carry our children. And it was an amazing experience.
00:04:59
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Whitney, you and your family have become such dear friends of ours and such an important part of our kind family's story. yeah ah And, you know, as far as like faith goes, I named my son Isaac because like Abraham and Sarah's son, Isaac, he was my long awaited miracle son.
00:05:18
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So it was a long journey, but ended up with, you know, a very happy result. Three beautiful children now Isaac is nine and my twin girls are
Ethical Considerations in Surrogacy
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seven. So lots of happy endings there.
00:05:31
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Lots, lots for sure. So for for many people, you know, for many people of faith, they grow up with just a strong belief around how families are formed, kind of for lack of, you know, I say quotes should be formed with you. Did you have any spiritual questions or tensions that you encountered as you considered, you know, just, you know, I've, I've had this diagnosis. If I want to have, you know, kids, there's questions just in decisions had to be made amongst an already, you know, just really just tough scenario in general. Did, how did, kind of was there any sort of tension between those two things of this desire and then with your own faith as well?
00:06:22
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Well, I was raised a Catholic and the Catholic Church has come out pretty strongly against assisted reproduction. But as an adult, I converted and was, don't know if converted is the right word, but became a member of the United Methodist Church. And that church has explicitly voiced support for um ivf and other assisted reproductive technology. So right for me, there wasn't sort of a struggle in that sense.
00:06:47
Speaker
um As you said, I did have to make all decisions very, very quickly. um you know i was diagnosed with cancer, they needed to move forward and they said they were willing to kind of give me a month to sort of, you know. Yeah, that's real quick.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yes. So there wasn't a lot of time, unfortunately, to do, you know, a lot of soul searching here. And it was very much kind of science and faith coming together very, very quickly. will say one of the things that I did wrestle with as somebody who was adopted, i was adopted by two wonderful people um when I was a baby.
00:07:20
Speaker
is is questioning whether God was calling me to grow my family through adoption. um Especially when I know there's so many children not in the world who need loving homes. ah Ultimately, my then spouse felt strongly about having biological children and I really wanted to kind of support that that desire. So, um and you know, this is something that kind of comes up and it doesn't come up when you're using an agency, a reputable agency like Surrogate Solutions, right?
00:07:50
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But we do hear kind of horror stories about the ethical issues around assisted reproductive technology. Unfortunately, losing, you know, especially surrogate carriers in developing countries who are almost forced to be surrogates because of poverty and then, you know, are going through the process under these very inhumane conditions, you know, without regard to their wellbeing.
00:08:12
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And so I think these abuses of reproductive technology that exploit the poor and the marginalized are absolutely against the gospel and the teachings throughout scripture, you know, that we're supposed to love and care for our neighbor. fortunate But again, when done, you know, I hate to say correctly, but I think there is an ethical and correct way to do this.
00:08:33
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Absolutely. um Surrogate solutions, as I know from being one of your antennae fans. The screening that you do, the ah kind of check-ins, the constant check-ins on the wellbeing of like all parties, you know, the way you just make sure that no one's being exploited, everybody's being supported.
00:08:55
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i don't think you have those concerns, but that is why I i really do think that people need to use a reputable agency. yeah there's There's a lot of reasons to do it.
00:09:06
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For sure, for sure. And I think, I mean, that's not even, you know, this question of, you know, well, gosh, you know, are there, there's concerns around, you know, just playing God and, you know, this idea of interfering with, you know, quote, divine plans and things like that. I mean, that's just exactly like you said, just basic ethical beliefs.
00:09:29
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being good to your neighbor, human decency. Not exploiting the poor and the marginalized. Exactly. Exactly. You don't have to be religious to feel that way. Definitely not. Definitely not. But I think you, I think you see a lot of,
00:09:47
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When those are the headlines, I think that's how people can get this idea of, yeah and unfortunately, a negative connotation of what surrogacy and egg donation is, when in fact, exactly like you said, there is a right way and an ethical way to do it. And, you know, building that team of reputable agency, reputable clinic, you know, all of those things. That's part of that
God's Plan: Science and Faith Integration
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process. Faith-based or not, you know, we, you want to treat a human well.
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um And there, there shouldn't be a struggle with any of that period. um exactly Going back to you know, I kind of touched on it a little bit, but, you know, did you, did you in your own process, you said that, you know, you were, you were raised Catholic.
00:10:34
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um And so, you know, did you, did you kind of ever have a, any sort of issues with, this idea or family members, friends, you know, just having those concerns about, you know, like I said, playing God or interfering with the divine plan.
00:10:53
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And how did you kind of navigate, you know, maybe some of those, those things that are questions that came up with, you know, just lack of education. You know, it's so funny, you this idea of that we are so capable of subverting God's will, right? like throughou God's divine plans. I think the For instance, the book of Jonah illustrates how that goes when we try.
00:11:14
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pleasure
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you know, one of the things that I also find very interesting is this sort of belief that, you know, you know, God must act in this sort of direct divine, you know, way.
00:11:29
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Completely at odds with the way we see God work, you know, both in the world today and throughout scripture. Throughout the Old and New Testament, we see God calling people to serve.
00:11:41
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to take action, to implement God's will and plans. Of course, yes, there are a few instances where God acts, you know, very directly in these kind of big, majestic, divine ways. sure But mostly the Bible is filled with stories of just kind regular people who respond to calls that God puts on their hearts to lead and serve and love and give.
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um I'm always very encouraged when I read those stories about how God uses, you know, seemingly just average people like us ah for God's plans.
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And in each person, God sees something special that that particular person has to offer. So I think God gives us different gifts and talents and resources to share and to help others with.
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Being a surrogate or an egg donor is It's a very special calling. um God is using normal women, just like you and me, for this kind of very extraordinary purpose.
00:12:39
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And that just seems so in keeping with, you know, biblical narratives and how I've personally seen God work in the world. so Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. i couldn't I couldn't have said it more beautifully. No, I completely and totally agree with that.
00:12:55
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We'll get back to the show in just a second, but my name's Katie with Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions. And I wanted to take a moment to share with you something from my heart. If you're exploring surrogacy or simply wondering what it might look like to say yes to helping create a family, this journey can feel both sacred and uncertain.
00:13:13
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That's why we created Called to Carry, a 14-day devotional for women of faith walking through this sacred journey.
Assisted Reproductive Technology as Divine Manifestation
00:13:21
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Each day offers scripture, reflection, and real stories of women who've been there.
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Gentle reminders that you're not alone and that God is already walking beside you. You can get your free copy delivered straight to your home by visiting createahappyfamily.com. Take a breath, find a quiet moment, and let this be your invitation to rest and reflect.
00:13:43
Speaker
All right, let's get back to the show. From your theological studies and your own personal reflection, how, and you kind of touched on it with this idea of, you know, of God having this direct impact impact But how can we maybe understand, you know, infertility and the need for reproductive assistance, you know, kind of through that lens of of grace and, you know, ability to
00:14:22
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have um you know, these, these people in our lives, like you said, where God is giving them a gift or an act of, you know, this call to this service, you know, kind of, how can we kind of look through just that infertility and that need through that lens of grace, maybe rather than, hate to say the word, but like punishment or, you know, like divine Yeah.
00:14:49
Speaker
So again, speaking from the lens of somebody who attended a Methodist seminary, um I think what's called what we call the Wesleyan Quadrilateral addresses this issue really, really well. Okay.
00:15:00
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For those who might be listening who aren't familiar with this, the Wesleyan Quadrilateral is a kind of a theological framework that's attributed to John Wesley, who was the founder of Methodism.
00:15:11
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And it emphasizes that there are four main sources for understanding the Christian faith. And those are scripture. So the Bible tradition, sort of for your historical teachings and practices of Christians, you know, across time and space. Right. prison And that's that gift of grace that helps us understand and interpret scripture in the world around us.
00:15:34
Speaker
And then Christian experience. And so that's both our personal and experience as well as kind of collective experience and encounters with God in our daily life. So I think if you're looking at it through that lens, right? Like the gifts of grace of sort of the intelligence and the innovation, they're so evident in kind of the world of reproductive technology, right?
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I think we're meant to use the gifts that God has given us for good. And I personally, and I'm probably very biased. I'm a little too. Anything more in line with, you know, God's goodness than helping people build a
Acceptance of Diverse Family Structures
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family.
00:16:14
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So i'm I'm kind of surprised that there are some folks who sort of see assisted reproductive technology in this kind of, know, anti-God light, when to me it's, you know, God is the sort of creator, right? Right.
00:16:30
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So that creative, you know, ah ability that God has and has sort of given to us to God consistently from, you know, Genesis, right. Invites us to be a part of creating.
00:16:45
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When we're called to name the animals and kind of participate in sort of the creation of the world. So I'm always very surprised when people have this sort of negative view of reproductive creation.
00:16:57
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analogy Because it seems very in line with what God calls us to do to kind of create and participate in that process um and and kind of this creative, amazing way.
00:17:07
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So, yeah, no, for sure. i completely, again, beautifully said, and I think a really great, perspective of just that basic idea um and and not overthinking it when it comes to, you know, just the beauty that this that this process is.
00:17:29
Speaker
There's often, again, we continue to kind of to kind of touch on this, but there is often kind of this quiet grief when someone, you know, and I know you experienced this, but, you know, when someone feels like their path to parenthood doesn't align with what they imagined or maybe with what faith taught them.
00:17:49
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What encouragement would you give to someone just in that space? You know, either feeling spiritually conflicted, you know, with this longing that they have for a kiddo or, you know, maybe just, yeah, just in that, that grief space.
00:18:10
Speaker
Well, as you said, i can definitely understand that feeling well when things like cancer or infertility happen or when you don't meet the love of your life and you were, that you were hoping to meet. um Right.
00:18:25
Speaker
I can definitely understand this very well. um When things like cancer or infertility happen or when you maybe don't meet the love of your life you were hoping to meet and, you know, decide to be a single parent by choice. um These things can feel really hard.
Faith and God's Presence in Challenges
00:18:40
Speaker
um There are also kind of the complex emotional issues that same sex couples face and their reproductive journeys that are not easy to navigate. um I very personally don't tend to subscribe to the school of God meant for X or Y to happen when people get diagnosed with cancer or face multiple miscarriages and need to turn to IVF or other technology for help.
00:19:05
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you know, instead, when i have faced these difficult moments in my life and and some of them were absolutely related to, you know, that difficult journey to parenthood that I face. Mm hmm. I do remind myself that in every season of my life, God is with me.
00:19:21
Speaker
um While i absolutely believe there is, you know, divine wisdom and grace in every major world religion. um And I should have sort of started all of this by by absolutely acknowledging that, you know, everything I'm saying is coming kind of through the lens of Christianity. um i would be doing a grave, grave disservice to the other wonderful,
00:19:43
Speaker
world religions out there to even try to, you know, talk about these issues from from that perspective. I simply don't have the background. I hope you continue this particular series because I would be fascinated to hear from, you know, some of our our friends and and other great world religions and kind of their perspective on things. um So while there's absolutely, you know, just tremendous divine wisdom and grace in every, you know, religion as a Christian, i take a lot of comfort And knowing that we have a God who has lived the entire human experience and knows firsthand all of the wonderful and terrible things that are part of that human experience, right? You know, grief and loneliness and disappointment, you know, all of these things that were are a part of the human experience were made part of the divine experience because of the incarnation of God, you know, in Jesus of Nazareth.
00:20:40
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um one of my kind of favorite theologians, and I wonder if he would have even have thought of himself as a theologian, Michael Gerson, um he spoke about this in his sermon at the National Cathedral um and kind of talking about the ability to sort of experience divine in this world and the next.
00:21:01
Speaker
You know, he absolutely acknowledged the beauty and truth in other religions and said, you know, we sometimes search for a hidden door when the city has a hundred open gates, but there's this difference for a Christian believer at the end of all of our striving and longing, we find not a force, but a face.
00:21:20
Speaker
And I think that's sort of ah kind of the, the mark of Christianity, right? That our God is not just a force, but a face. And so I take so much comfort in knowing that that God walks with us through all the moments of our life and doesn't shy away from, you know, the pain and,
00:21:38
Speaker
are crying out in anger and just sometimes rage um when the human experience just feels too overwhelming. um You know, the shortest verse in the Bible is right. John 11 35, which two words, right.
00:21:52
Speaker
Jesus wept. um God weeps at the pain in the world. And, you know, the Psalms tell us that God is always close to the brokenhearted.
IVF Misconceptions and Medical Advancements
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um So I hope that,
00:22:05
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you know, that gives your listeners, you know, a little bit of a way to sort of understand all this and and feel that there is a God that is walking with them through this journey.
00:22:17
Speaker
Yeah. that's beautiful. In, you know, and you kind of have already touched on it where, you know, in your own experience, science and and faith had to kind of meet rather quickly.
00:22:31
Speaker
But, you know, you're, you've likely had to explain just aspects of, you know, art, assisted reproductive technology to people that are unfamiliar with just the science, you know, aspect of it.
00:22:45
Speaker
What scientific, you know, kind of misconceptions or really flat out myths do you wish more faith communities understood clearly?
00:22:57
Speaker
um i think some of the controversy around IVF yeah is that people may end up with extra embryos that they may not intend to use for their own but you know personal family planning.
00:23:11
Speaker
As a person of faith, I did end up with many extra embryos after you know my own family was complete. And I did choose to donate um the viable embryos to two couples who were having infertility issues.
00:23:25
Speaker
um And one of those couples does have a son from one of my donated embryos. And that's been an absolute tremendous blessing to be a part of of that journey. But I didn't donate those embryos because of some, don't know, pro-life sensibility, you know, in the context of like the abortion debate, for instance.
00:23:45
Speaker
You know, I donated them because, you know, as a Christian, i believe that, you know, when we have more than we need, we should prayerfully consider how we can use our blessings to bless others.
00:23:59
Speaker
um I also think donating embryos to science can be an equally wonderful way to bless other people. So, um you know, so, so much, especially as a former cancer patient myself, I can attest to so much of our medical research and advancement is made possible because of embryonic cell research.
00:24:18
Speaker
So very, very important. Yeah. Well, and thank you for so for sharing, you know, just such a, such a personal choice um to, to listeners. I think there have been, I mean, I've spoken to, you know, different intended parents and, um you know, clinic professionals where the, the after when it comes to embryos is a big question mark.
00:24:44
Speaker
i And whatever anyone's choice is, it's that personal choice. But I think there, there can be this unintentional and maybe sometimes intentional guilt around, you know, what to do when, when you have those embryos. um And so I really appreciate you sharing just your personal story and how, and and what you chose to do and the beauty that, that can come from it. And again, this idea of, you know,
00:25:13
Speaker
Build a bigger table. how how How else can we invite you and share and give if exactly like you said, if there's an abundance um and if that feels right to you, if that's the way you're going to do it, that's fantastic.
00:25:27
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Were were there any medical professionals or REs, embryology, I mean, just, you know, of the of the gambit who kind of helped you maybe, know,
00:25:43
Speaker
bridge that gap between science and kind of your own faith, especially maybe, I mean, I know you kind of had to make quick decisions, but, you know, what did, did you experience any sort of, I guess, help with bridging that gap?
00:26:02
Speaker
Well, I will tell you the wonderful hospital chaplains who I encountered were amazing. Their ministry of being present in this, you know, very sterile and scary,
00:26:13
Speaker
medical setting and and kind of the role they play cannot be overstated. um After my egg retrieval, I had a very, very severe case of ovarian hyperstimulation and I was actually hospitalized for a week. um And i remember so clearly, you know, the hospital chest chaplains, but also this amazing nurse who, you know, prayed with me, you know, in the middle of the night during that time, you know, I think about her so often and I'm so, so grateful for the kind of the gift of grace that she was ah in my life at that time.
Redefining the Christian Family
00:26:44
Speaker
um It was actually meeting kind of all these wonderful hospital chaplains that inspired me to attend seminary.
00:26:51
Speaker
That's beautiful. And yeah, again, just having those individuals in those points of life. i That's such a beautiful illustration of, you know, almost this warmth within this very cold, white, scary, sometimes clinical setting. I'm so glad you had just that support in especially scary moments like that.
00:27:14
Speaker
I am too. It was such a blessing. Yeah, for sure. How your own family building journey you know changed or or maybe even deepened your understanding of what it means to be ah family, spiritually speaking?
00:27:34
Speaker
I think that, first of all, Christian communities need to stop any sort of messaging that, you know, one type of family is better than another or more in keeping with kind of the Christian faith than another. Right. This this idea that having a family with a mom and dad and three kids and the golden retriever is is sometimes the ideal Christian family and that somebody who is less and that that, you know, that others are like somehow less than for having a life situation that.
00:28:03
Speaker
you know, different from that, right? First of all, that that sort of, I would almost call it the sort of the American ideal. It's not the Christian ideal, right? And it's certainly not biblical.
00:28:16
Speaker
um And so I think that, you know, when churches or faith communities intentionally or unintentionally kind of give the impression that this is sort of the the model Christian family,
00:28:30
Speaker
it can kind of contribute to like the feelings of isolation and pain that people facing infertility, you know, have. from um I think we all need to acknowledge that, you know, families look different in there, but they're, you know, the good ones are always rooted in love. And, you know, throughout scripture, the old and the new Testament, we see families of all shapes and sizes that aren't always rooted and shared bloodlines, but are the result of creating kind of these beautiful chosen families, right? We see Joseph willingly serving as Jesus's human father and raising him as his own, despite not having any biological ties.
00:29:11
Speaker
ah You see Ruth and Naomi kind of, you know, maintaining this beautiful, enduring like family bond long after Ruth's husband, who was Naomi's son, had died. um You know, Jesus spent most of his adult life actually with his his chosen family, right? his His disciples and the other kind of loved ones in his life who, you know, shared those joys and the fear and the pain.
00:29:34
Speaker
um and of course, when I think about, you know, families, um you and Josh and your family, right? you You and Josh, you know, serve as my daughter's godparents. And, you know, you're just such a beautiful addition to our family that happened because of assisted reproductive technology.
00:29:52
Speaker
Um, I also have a friend, a dear friend who is a single mom by choice, thanks to assisted reproductive technology and the little family that she and her daughter are, it's just such a tangible example to me of, of God's love in the world. Like when I see them together, it is just the most beautiful little family.
00:30:13
Speaker
And so our ability to kind of love and, you know, to desire a family, i think these are such, you know, kind of obvious gifts from God, who is the source of of love and and all creation.
Balancing Spiritual Hope and Hurt
00:30:25
Speaker
So. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. No, you're so you're so right. And it, it is fine. it It is so, again, you're, you're hitting the nail on the head it because it is just so beautiful to see
00:30:43
Speaker
it's a beauty to see all of the different types of family. And it goes back to just this idea of being invited to create and create family and household and love. And, you know, and exactly like what you said, good families have that deep root of, of love at the center.
00:31:02
Speaker
um Whether there's a golden retriever or not, there's, you know, there there's just that beautiful, just love behind it all. And who doesn't want to be a part of that? but exactly first For many people, you know, listening, they may carry, you know, kind of that and spiritual hope and and also spiritual wounds.
00:31:25
Speaker
What words of reassurance would you offer to someone who's navigating faith and fertility and trying to honor both and working through what that looks like?
00:31:43
Speaker
You know, when we're talking kind of about spiritual wounds, um I think we need to very prayerfully consider as Christians some of the harmful messaging we have, but um like responding like this was God's plan when people have suffered a miscarriage or face a fertility have other kind of medical problems.
00:32:02
Speaker
<unk>s the idea that God wanted me to have cancer is ridiculous, right? My cancer was caused by, you know, rogue cells that grew in the past, right?
00:32:13
Speaker
It was not a punishment from God, right? It was not God's will that I, you know, should suffer. um and I think when we imply that, I think it can kind of inflict these very deep and very lasting spiritual wounds that turn people from God. Yeah.
00:32:33
Speaker
So rather than kind of give these kind of off the cuff responses, think it's it's it's so much more important to kind of make sure that people understand
00:32:47
Speaker
that God is walking through us with these situations, right? That God brings good out of horrible situations. um My children, the child who was born from the embryo that I donated, my friendship with you,
00:33:02
Speaker
You know, all of these are just such beautiful things that God made possible. And so God takes the bad things that happen to us in life and uses them for good. um And then we have, in turn, the obligation to be the hands and feet of God for those who are experiencing pain and loss.
00:33:20
Speaker
and And so I think. those are the messages we should be sending to people who are experiencing kind of pain and loss, um, facing fertility struggles. Not that there's this, you know, kind of implying almost that there's this like sadistic God out there who is causing their pain, causing their suffering. I think that's kind of the cause of some of these spiritual wounds.
00:33:44
Speaker
Um, But i I think also your question very much you know hits on on something that's at the core of Christianity. um And and you know there's no better example of both spiritual hope and spiritual wounds existing side by side than in the Psalms, right?
00:34:03
Speaker
Throughout them, you see people just you know expressing their hopes and dreams while also simultaneously like crying out to God for relief, right? From the pain and despair that they're feeling.
00:34:14
Speaker
um so I think ah folks who are listening to your podcast probably understand, right, that that hope and and then also that suffering that's that's existing side by side.
00:34:26
Speaker
um So my advice would be to follow the examples of the folks who wrote the Psalms, you know, never hesitating to rage or cry out to God about what you're experiencing, but also to never lose hope.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah. The root of ah the Christian faith is existing in the strange kind of middle place where we're living through the pain and the sadness and the struggle of of this world. But we also have this kind of enduring hope and assurance that God is at work in the midst of all of it and also bringing forth new
Harmony of Science and Faith
00:35:00
Speaker
life. Yeah.
00:35:01
Speaker
You know, the Bible uses that imagery of of a birth and in new life forming so many times to kind of explain the kind of hope that I am sure all of your audience can relate to.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. The waiting, the suffering, um you know, the anxiety. It's something that all of us who have had to rely on assistive reproductive technology can relate to much. Sure. Sure.
00:35:26
Speaker
ah But are our hope, it's based on both, you know, the wisdom of, you know, our reproductive medical professionals, the tremendous scientific advances, you know, advances that are happening every day.
00:35:39
Speaker
And for Christians and and people of faith, um you know, the goodness and love of our God, right? That is where our hope comes from, from both science and faith.
00:35:50
Speaker
And so, I will be absolutely keeping all of your listeners in my prayers. I'm i'm just so grateful to be ah have the chance to be on this podcast.
Gratitude and Career Fulfillment
00:35:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and again, thank you for, know, just the the beautiful walkthrough of kind of ah how we some might come and view science and faith as ah juxtaposition when in fact, you they very succinctly and beautifully are are layered and come together. Gorgeous.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah. um And so I, again, I just really appreciate um your candor, your vulnerability um and your knowledge about, you know, just personal as well as yeah your study um of the subject. My, my last question to you, and it's a fun one.
00:36:40
Speaker
and Excuse me, as you know, i'm coffee is my favorite thing in the whole entire world and lucky for you know all of you know my my all over again but As you know, coffee and I, we have a beautiful codependent relationship with each other. And so I love to ask the question, um what has filled your cup today? Literally or figuratively, what has been the thing that has filled your cup?
00:37:21
Speaker
Oh, gosh. um And this is, I would say figuratively. can't. have the the best job in the world. So in addition to my beautiful family, which of course fills my cup, um I have the best job in the world. um I went to seminary and although I didn't become a minister as planned, I get to live out that calling through through my career here. I work for a ah large international law firm and I get to lead um their diversity initiatives as well as um their volunteer and community service initiatives and pro bono work.
00:37:55
Speaker
So kind of you know, getting to be the hands and feet of Christ in the world, getting to help others be the hands and feet of Christ in the world. It's absolutely kind of a dream job and and what fills my cup these days.
00:38:08
Speaker
For sure. Well, it's a marriage of two amazing things that you do. And so, no, that's beautiful. Well, again, thank you so much for your time out of your incredibly busy day, just saving the world.
00:38:21
Speaker
But I am so grateful to you just for this. And then, of course, personally, just love and adore you and your family. um And I'm just so grateful um that you we got to, I got to come into this world because of you.
00:38:36
Speaker
So, you know, be and be a part of this and that you trusted me with, um, with getting to grow your family just on a personal note. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.