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How Listening to Their Bodies Saved Their Lives — And Built a Family
62 Plays22 hours ago
What happens when you trust your intuition — even when the world tells you not to?
In this powerful Breast Cancer Awareness Month episode of Create a Happy Family, you’ll hear the extraordinary journey of Caroline, an intended mother whose gut instinct led to a life-saving breast cancer diagnosis, and Janna, the surrogate whose intuition during postpartum complications saved her from a stroke.
Together, their courage and advocacy not only preserved their lives — it built a family. From Caroline’s devastating diagnosis that shifted her family building plans, to Janna’s decision to say “yes” to surrogacy and the joyful delivery set to The Lion King soundtrack, their journey is about advocacy, resilience, and the bond that built a family.
Whether you’re exploring surrogacy, navigating how to grow your family, or seeking hope during breast cancer treatment, this episode will inspire you to advocate for yourself, lean into intuition, and believe in the beauty of Plan B.
✨ Key Takeaways
Trusting your body can save your life. Caroline and Janna’s stories show the importance of listening to intuition, even when medical professionals dismiss your concerns.
Plan B can be beautiful. Surrogacy wasn’t Caroline’s first choice, but it became the path to her miracle baby — and lifelong bonds with Janna’s family.
Advocacy is everything. From pushing for second opinions to demanding the right fertility care, their story highlights why self-advocacy is critical for health and family building.
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Transcript
Advocacy, Resilience, and Family Bonds
00:00:00
Speaker
This October for breast cancer awareness month, we're sharing a story about advocacy, resilience, and the bond that built a family. It's a reminder that sometimes the most powerful medicine is listening to your own body.
00:00:14
Speaker
Statistical unlikeliness is not the same thing as impossible. And I think that was really hard for me to wrap my head around initially. um And, you know, you get all those questions of like the whiny why you know, how did I end up getting breast cancer at 31?
Caroline's Breast Cancer Journey
00:00:33
Speaker
That's Caroline, an intended mom whose breast cancer diagnosis changed everything about her family's future. And this is Jana, the surrogate who not only carried Caroline's child, but whose own intuition saved her life after delivery.
00:00:48
Speaker
I laid down and got a really, really bad headache. wow And I was like, this doesn't feel right. So I went and checked my blood pressure and it was even higher. i just kept thinking like, gosh, if I didn't decide to go in, if I didn't listen to that little internal voice saying like, yeah, let's just go get this checked out. i mean, who knows? I could have had a stroke.
00:01:08
Speaker
Together, they prove that trusting your gut can be lifesaving and even life-giving. It wasn't my plan a but it was like the most incredible plan b um And I feel really lucky.
00:01:21
Speaker
In this conversation, you'll see how Caroline and Jana turned fear into strength, statistics into hope, and intuition into a beautiful new life. Enjoy.
00:01:32
Speaker
I really am just so excited because I feel like you guys just have such a beautiful story. Before we, like, let's go back in time um a little bit. Caroline, you um you have two amazing kiddos, and you were about to try for baby number three,
00:01:49
Speaker
when you self-discovered breast cancer. Tell us a little bit more about that. Sure, so it was actually about, it'll be two years mid-October when I was diagnosed. So was diagnosed October, 2023.
00:02:05
Speaker
um October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, which I didn't realize at the time, but um made it, I guess, a little bit more appropriate that I had been, doing I've been doing self exams for a while, but um after breastfeeding two kids, I was like, I know myself, I'm not worried. You know, I i like i feel like when you're breastfeeding, like you're very self-aware of what's going on. Sure.
00:02:27
Speaker
But I, in the summer of 2023, I had weaned my second my second child from breastfeeding. um And as we all know, you lose a ton of volume in your breasts when you're breastfeeding. so like when you you actually are done, you're like, oh my gosh, what am I left with? Basically nothing. on And I was in the shower one day and felt what was kind of, it wasn't small. It was, it was actually like pretty large. And I was kind of surprised that I hadn't noticed it.
00:02:54
Speaker
it was on the top side of my right breast and initially wasn't really that concerned because I was like, I mean, I'm sure that it's just from breastfeeding. Like that was my and immediate thought. I had had mastitis like probably four times with my first child and then race with my second and I just knew that that was like something that I got. So I was like, no big deal. I don't feel sick, but maybe I have something. So I went to my OB, showed her, she did a full exam and said, I'm not worried.
00:03:20
Speaker
It doesn't feel like anything concerning. I was a little confused that there was no imaging, but like i was 31. It's not like I was, and i and I have no family history of any, anything. Like my mom had a skin cancer scare and that was like,
00:03:34
Speaker
The most, the closest my family has come to cancer, um including grandparents. They died of dementia and old age. So like we, i was not on my radar, honestly. yeah um Two months later, and this is where it's going to get a little woo woo, but I promise that's not who I was. It's kind of who I am now, but it's kind of who I am.
Yoga and Intuition
00:03:52
Speaker
I was in a yoga class on a work retreat. I had like signed up. We were in a different town and um in rural Wisconsin. And i had signed up just because I had an hour of free time and it happened to be their cancer survivors yoga class. And I was sitting in the class with all these other young women wearing pins showing what cancer they'd survived.
00:04:11
Speaker
And we started the class. I was in downward dog and I was like, I have cancer. I know it sounds nuts, um but I had to leave. Like I was so certain that I had breast cancer. So I left.
00:04:25
Speaker
I think there's those moments when you're closer to yourself. I don't know. Yoga for for me is one of those things where you're like very in tune with with your with your body and your mind. And I try to really focus on like the practice rather than, you know, thinking about the million things i have to do.
00:04:40
Speaker
Anyway, came home after the retreat and ah had immediately scheduled a follow-up with my my doctor's office, but I'd asked for a different person because I was like, I know that she doesn't think this is anything and she's going to think I'm crazy.
00:04:52
Speaker
I don't want to be talked out of this. So I asked for someone and she did exam and she was like, this does not feel worrisome, but I'll give you a referral. um Called the referral, immediately got in, because I was like adamant that i that something was not right.
00:05:07
Speaker
And of course, by the time that the actual appointment came around, like three days later, I talked to myself out of it. I was like, you're being crazy. Like, I'm glad you're doing something about this. This is my internal monologue, but you're being crazy. um I wasn't crazy.
00:05:20
Speaker
It was stage two.
Diagnosis and Treatment Options
00:05:21
Speaker
It was the size of a line and it was in two lymph nodes. um And again, I had no family history. no genetics, no risk factors. you know all the risk factors they say are like living an unhealthy life. I'm like, okay, we all do things that are a little unhealthy here or there, right? Like I have a glass of wine once a week.
00:05:40
Speaker
um But like, there's really no explanation. My my cancer was hormone positive, HER2 negative, um very hormone positive. And By the grace of God, it was not aggressive, which is unusual given my age. Because being 31, you normally get stuck with the super aggressive subtypes.
00:06:00
Speaker
I did not. I had a ah grade two tumor, which if you know the breast cancer subtyping, I think it's actually all solid tumors. They're graded one through three. And three tends to be more aggressive, growing faster.
00:06:13
Speaker
and it's pretty exponential. So like the difference between two and three is a lot. um Mine was grade two. um Based on the size, it had likely been there for years um because it wasn't growing very fast and we have no idea what caused it. i tell myself um every day that I'm like the luckiest unlucky person on the planet, right? Because A, I found it in time for it to be treated and I'm totally fine now, I'm in the clear. um And B, because like it was treatable. Like, you know, breast cancer treatment has come so far. I didn't lose my hair, I didn't have chemo.
00:06:48
Speaker
um I went through a double mastectomy. So I immediately, like a month later, went through double mastectomy right to implants and then did radiation. And I've been on an oral, I guess you call it like an oral chemo.
00:07:01
Speaker
um for I'll be on that for two years and I'll be in full menopause via a shot for 10 years. So to get back to the point, all of our dreams of having this enormous family were pretty quickly squashed once we realized that it was hormone positive cancer.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah. ah Oh my gosh. Okay. So just going back to, I mean, there's so much to just unfold in that. lot there. I know. Yeah. ah But what, mean, feel like women in general, when it comes to just, just general health, I feel like there's so much,
00:07:38
Speaker
advocating that we have to do for ourselves and there's so much like you said you I mean three you knew for ah Fact in that yoga class that you had cancer and three days later you had talked yourself out of it and I feel like There's just all of this outward just chatter that makes us second guess how we are feeling. And it's almost, I mean, you were very specific. I loved that you were so specific about, I don't want to go see the same doctor because I, I know this person is already going to say no to me.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Imagine if you just accepted that, like, who knows? Well, know, it's funny. I mean, we can get into it later, but I know Jana has a very similar story. I think there's, there's so much of Like I come from the world of finance where there's a feedback and mechanism, right? Like you get something wrong and the output doesn't make sense.
00:08:30
Speaker
And in your body, the only feedback mechanism are symptoms. And if you don't have symptoms, most people are like, well, then there's nothing wrong. You know, like I didn't have any symptoms of anything. so you know, if you're trying to reason between the rational, the logical, and like the irrational and feeling based, it's really hard to make sense of where those two intersect, right? Like I had this feeling that I had breast cancer and I and i had a lump but nothing else about my day-to-day like pointed to breast cancer. So it's really easy to look up the statistics and be like, okay, you know, ah what is it I think it's four in 200 women under 40 or one in 200 women under 40, that's what it is, 0.05% of women under 40 will get breast cancer.
00:09:16
Speaker
And I was like, what are the odds that I'm that one? into Like pretty slim, but you know, You could be the one. i don't know why why you why you wouldn't be the one. And if you have a lump, like you're already not in a great position in terms of being that one out of 200. Yeah,
00:09:33
Speaker
um yeah i they I think the term is medical gaslighting where people kind of write write off your symptoms or say you're being crazy. um Luckily, i trusted myself. But yeah, it...
00:09:47
Speaker
ah it was was not an obvious ah It was not an obvious thing that I had breast cancer. Right. No, for sure. Obviously, you were you get the diagnosis. You go through just all of that. And as you said, it kind of just totally derailed your family-building journey.
00:10:07
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about that shift and how you guys navigated from, you know, everything's kind of, you know, fine in our world to this total shift.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah, so um we had had our first two kids really close together, accidentally. Honestly, it was not on purpose. They're 15 months apart. um They're best friends. So in retrospect, it was great, but at the time it was very chaotic. And so we had planned to take a little bit of a longer time between our second and third, but having a third was never like a question. I'm one of four kids, my husband's one of six.
00:10:45
Speaker
So we were like, four is our minimum. that was That's always been our operating assumption. Or like, I think a year into our, our relationship, we've now been together almost 10 years. No 10 years. Yeah. 10 years.
00:10:57
Speaker
Um, a year into our relationship, we picked out baby names and we've had an updated list on our phone, like on a shared notes app. And we updated every time we go out for dinner, just the two of us, we like brainstorm new names. We go through ancestry. Cause we like family names the best. it's like our, our favorite thing is to go with like a kind of a take on a family name.
00:11:15
Speaker
um And so we still have, we still have quite a few more names to use to have more, but you know, to your point, Whitney, we, we were like certain we wanted more. So right after I found out that I was pretty unlikely to be able to carry more either because chemo would put me into menopause or because the treatment that I did end up on would force me to be in menopause for a while. Cause the hormones are what caused the cancer to grow And so putting, taking away those hormones is what would theoretically prevent that from coming back.
Surrogacy Decision
00:11:47
Speaker
Right. um We started doing like math on a worksheet. We were like, okay, so most of the newer age studies are showing that you need to be on treatment for about two and a half years until you can get pregnant again. And that is like usually it's new it's newer, but that's what a lot of doctors are now saying. You have to do two and a half years on treatment. You can take a hiatus to have a child.
00:12:10
Speaker
Then you have to go right back on. So we were doing all this math, like, okay, our oldest and our third would be like seven years apart. And in that moment, we were like, that's like the best case scenario if I'm allowed to take a hiatus.
00:12:23
Speaker
So like pretty much a month into me knowing that I had breast cancer, we were like, nope, we're doing a carrier. We're going to find someone who's going to help us. And we're going to do this a different way. You know, I didn't have any fertility problems with my first two kids. So this was like the last place that I expected to be like researching surrogacy agencies.
00:12:42
Speaker
Um, I had a friend who had gone through, um fertility issues and ended up with a surrogate, but that was like the only reference point that I had. And so, um we knew November, 2023, that we were going to attempt to do this.
00:12:57
Speaker
Um, And to your point, Whitney, about like advocating for yourself, our first round of IVF yeah failed, which is crazy because I had no problems getting pregnant, but I had extremely low AMH. Like my AMH was that of a 47 year old at 31.
00:13:12
Speaker
um And so the first clinic that i worked with used frozen sperm. They used, they did all these things that just weren't the best, most tailored solution for someone with my situation.
00:13:25
Speaker
Um, and so we got zero embryos and I advocated for myself. We switched clinics. I went to Boston, um, which is not where I live. I live in Chicago and found another clinic that would tailor solutions. And we got five embryos.
00:13:39
Speaker
Um, wow and so, ah yeah, I, I, I still, sometimes I still can't really believe that like how many times our life has been at a fork, you know, where we've been like, the one route is like stay on your path and continue where you've been. And the other option is deviate and do something crazy and move to Boston for a a few weeks.
00:14:00
Speaker
um And obviously that was the right decision for us. um We knew that having those five embryos at least gave us options. They're not tested. We chose not to test any of them. So they were like day one frozen, which when Jana and I first matched, she was like, I've never heard of that. And was like, yeah, I haven't either, but it's going to be fine.
00:14:22
Speaker
So ah yeah, we were pretty committed to the path right away. Yeah, ah for sure. i love that. It's so funny. Whenever you said you're you're from a finance background and I keep hearing all of this, like math and statistics and okay, we're going to have, you know, our to-do list and like, look at, you know, just, just all of the things.
00:14:38
Speaker
But I think at that point when, like you said, you're in that fork, you're like, okay, let's. Let's take this head on. Let's figure this out. I love that. No, for sure. Jana, you've kind of shared that your own journey to becoming a mom wasn't easy.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I know you said you needed you ended up needing fertility treatment um to have your twins. How did did that experience ever plant, you know, the seed of of surrogacy for you?
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, so my husband and my husband was active in the Army when we began trying to have children. And um we tried for a little over a year and were unsuccessful.
00:15:19
Speaker
There are a lot of stressors in that lifestyle of deployments and, you know, a lot of timeline, like timing things out to make sure like we, you know, this is going to work on this timeline.
00:15:30
Speaker
um But long story short, we were diagnosed with unexplained infertility and which was kind of unsettling because we didn't have an answer of what what was going on. And we did end up doing basically super ovulation shots or injections to basically up our chances of getting pregnant. So we just super ovulated and had time to intercourse. You know, you're going to do this on this time, on this day. And yeah um It worked on the third try.
00:15:59
Speaker
It was our last try before having to do like full on IVF. um And we were blessed with a boy and a girl, twins. And um I would say that's probably what led me to surrogacy was, ah you know, it had been a long time. My my children are eight now.
00:16:17
Speaker
And I only got to be pregnant one time. And i thoroughly enjoyed being pregnant. I loved being pregnant with the twins. But our family was very much complete. And I was just in this season of my life where I wanted to experience that again and in return help somebody else on their journey.
00:16:35
Speaker
And if I'm completely honest, when I went into surrogacy, I was a little naive and I only thought people did this process because of infertility issues. i you know I had no idea of all the barriers and other challenges that other people face that lead them to the path of needing a surrogate.
00:16:54
Speaker
And so reading the profiles and the stories of all the you know health issues, cancer, you know organ transplants can't carry, you know all these different um things and barriers that people go through.
00:17:08
Speaker
but I would definitely say like my own struggles first is what directed me into this path. As you were going through those those profiles, you know and and both of you, as you kind of you know both arrived here separately, how did you guys know you know that this was the right match?
00:17:28
Speaker
I don't know. I would say for... so Brian, my husband was very involved um with the profiles. Love that. Because i you know, we were very much like, this is a big undertaking on me physically, but like as a family unit, like we're all involved in this process. Right. And even though he's not carrying the baby or my children aren't carrying the baby, they still will be impacted by the choices that we're making here. And so Brian and I sat down and we were looking through profiles and we basically were looking for somebody who were like, we could totally see like having dinner, hanging out with them or, you know, playing a board game or something. We wanted to.
00:18:08
Speaker
I didn't want it to be someone that I felt like I had to be somebody else, you know, or like like going to an interview or, you know, going to a job or. so No, I wanted to just be someone easy that, you know, we could hang out with on a weekend.
00:18:23
Speaker
And so when we read Caroline and Matt's profile, Brian and I were like, yeah, these seem like pretty cool people. We can hang out with them. And then we we actually involved Maple and Logan. and We like showed them pictures, you know, and we had explained to Maple logan and in a very kid friendly, you way, you know.
00:18:42
Speaker
way you know this this lady her we said like her belly is not able to carry a baby and she needs help so the doctor's gonna put her baby in mommy's belly and then you know we're gonna help them grow it and then we'll give it back and um do you have any questions about that and i as i said we're gonna meet them tonight and i'll ask your questions for you and i'm trying to remember what their questions were i think like do they have a pet what's their favorite color And then we got to ask
00:19:21
Speaker
and so we got to ask those questions at the match meeting and um i really brian i do like right away. The coordinator says, you know, okay, this was, you you know, this was the end of the match meeting, you know, go, go, ah go, you know, be with each other and, you know, talk it over and we'll give you a few days and then you can let us know. And I would say it was pretty instant. As soon as we hit end on the zoom call, Brian, and I looked at each other we're like, yep, that's good.
00:19:49
Speaker
going being I think it was instantaneous, Jen. Totally the same on our end. Yeah, it just felt right. It just felt, you know, and looking back at our journey and all the things that you've gone through that led you to this process, Caroline and me, it just, it has always felt like it just aligned. Like it was always supposed to be this way. And even though I didn't know Caroline when she was going through her her health problems,
00:20:16
Speaker
it it led us together. And it was like, it was always meant to be that way. I don't know. It's just special. It makes me a little teary. yeah oh Sorry, you know, this is a podcast and I'm supposed to stay understandable. um ah No, you're good.
00:20:32
Speaker
well We were informed that we got a match about three weeks after our profile went live and we were not expecting to match that quickly. um We had, i mean,
00:20:43
Speaker
we weren't, we were being realistic. Like we knew that it could take a lot longer. um It wasn't going to be our first baby, which I knew that some people had kind of given us the heads up that like in a scenario where the carrier gets to pick a lot of carriers would rather be, you know, giving someone when their first child. And so we were like totally realistic about that.
00:21:03
Speaker
It could take a long time. Our, our terms were like, we, we were not gonna we were, we were going to keep the baby unless they had a condition that was incompatible with life. So that was like one thing that we felt pretty strongly about, um which I think maybe made the match a little faster because I think that there's a lot of carriers who are on the same page.
00:21:22
Speaker
um But we matched on Mother's
Surrogacy Journey
00:21:25
Speaker
Day. We got our um are are you know email saying we found you a match on Mother's Day, which was also my birthday, which is hard to, it's like still kind of hard to explain to me that that worked out that way.
00:21:38
Speaker
um And I opened the profile and my kids have red hair and they actually look more like Jana than they look like me. which is And so I saw Jana's profile and I was like, i mean, of course, like I read the rest of her profile and she talked about, you know, how she's a teacher, she's a kindergarten teacher and her husband teaches kids with special needs. And I was like, I'm not sure I could have dream dreamt someone up in a lab that would have been a better fit for me, at least on paper.
00:22:10
Speaker
um And then the minute we connected on Zoom, Matt and I looked at each other we were like, this is a no brainer. Like this is totally the right person. um And I agree, Jana, it really does. um It's not, it wasn't my plan a but it was like the most incredible plan B. um And I feel really lucky.
00:22:31
Speaker
We, it it's crazy because our journey, like, I feel like we had this most beautiful journey and life still happened, right? Like all the chaos of everything went right after embryo transfer, a major hurricane was headed to Florida. So I was trying to fly back from Chicago.
00:22:50
Speaker
um And all the flights were getting canceled. And so, you know, my family's down in Florida with this major hurricane is coming and and I'm stuck the stuck in Chicago. And, you know, life just happened. And but this like beautiful thing came out of it all. You know, yeah ah Caroline wasn't able to make it to the transfer because she was ill.
00:23:10
Speaker
um you know during the pregnancy yeah during the pregnancy i had a pipe burst in my house you know like all the life happened right but it was just this really cool like connection and this the most beautiful thing came out of it at the end and it it was awesome oh my gosh it's beautiful and again just
00:23:35
Speaker
I couldn't have said it better myself, Caroline. I know it wasn't the plan a And Jana, I know, you know, this this idea was so foreign for so long. And then to have it come together and exactly like you said, such beauty came from it.
00:23:53
Speaker
Can you guys tell me, well, I mean, tell me about delivery day. You have all this life happening and now we get to like the best part. Like, what did it feel like when, when baby was here?
00:24:07
Speaker
Jana, you want to share the song you picked? um Okay. So I was very nervous about the C-section. I honestly was hoping to have a V-back because I didn't get to experience that with the twins and Um, when we found out he was nine pounds, 10 ounces at birth, I was very happy. We did not do a V back, but I was like, C section was great.
00:24:29
Speaker
Um, no, but I was very, very nervous. And, um, I'm sitting there and I made it very clear to all the staff and they were so awesome there at the hospital, but I let them know, like, I'm very scared right now.
00:24:41
Speaker
Um, and it was mostly because of the spinal tap and I'm sitting there hunched over and the anesthesiologist is, you know, doing his work and and I'm crying because I'm very, very scared at this point, and the doctor is in front of me, and she's like, oh, you're doing great job, and she's like, so, Gina, you know, what kind of music do you want me to play during the C-section? And in my head, I'm thinking, music?
00:25:04
Speaker
Like, I am petrified right now. I can't even think of music right now. What are you talking about music? and and And she's like, yeah, she's like, I've got Spotify on my phone. I'll play whatever you want to hear.
00:25:16
Speaker
And so I'm like, I know she's just trying to calm me down, and I'm sitting there like, Okay, okay, music, music. And so all I could think of was Caroline's oldest daughter had kept called the baby throughout the whole pregnancy Zazu from Lion King.
00:25:30
Speaker
She's like, my brother's going to be Zazu. So I'm sitting there and that pops into my head. So i was like, would it be really weird if we played the Lion King soundtrack? During the C-section, she's like, absolutely. i love it. She's like, we're totally doing this.
00:25:47
Speaker
And so, you know, I'm finally, they get me all on the operating table and I'm all set up. And so they're bringing in, we were so lucky. We got to have Caroline, Matt and my husband all come into the, to the delivery room or the OR.
00:26:00
Speaker
And, um, So they're walking in and it's that song like, and I knew Caroline would know and she's like, Jana, did you pick this? And i was like, I did.
00:26:12
Speaker
And the timing of the soundtrack actually was perfect. I don't know if you remember this, but when he yeah came out, it was the song, I just can't wait to be king. And like, oh, Lord, it was.
00:26:24
Speaker
He was enormous, so it really kind of worked nicely. Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. Have we done like the whole like Simba moment, like holding up the phone again? Oh, there's a picture. There's a picture because he was taken out, you know, via C-section. Like he was He was an enormous baby, like he was nearly 10 pounds.
00:26:43
Speaker
yeah um And yeah, the doctor was holding him up while I just can't wait to be king explain. It was pretty perfect. Yeah. Right before I went into the OR, I had asked the doctor, because I said, you know this is what they had said on the ultrasound. you know How accurate is that? Do you really think he's going to be that heavy? Or like, what do you think?
00:27:00
Speaker
And she was like, well, once I get you on the operating table and I feel your belly, she's like, I'll be able to tell you if it's going to be a big baby. And so i was like, okay, cool. So when she laid me down, she goes, yeah, Janet, I think this is going to be a pretty big baby. And I was like, oh, okay.
00:27:13
Speaker
And then when he came out, everyone was like, oh, wow, he's a big baby. And I hear Caroline saying it. I hear the anesthesiologist saying it. And I'm like, well, how big is he? Like, because I can't see anything. I have the curtain up. And then when they yelled out nine pounds, 10 ounces, I was like, nine pounds, 10 ounces.
00:27:30
Speaker
Amazing. Holy moly. You know what? That almost feels so good because I feel like there there can be some of that, you know, disappointment, right? Of like, you know, wanting that VBAC. And then whenever you hear like, oh no, this was a great decision. And you just keep hearing everybody reiterate what a great decision it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a big baby.
00:27:49
Speaker
Yeah. He came out very healthy, perfect pink. Like has had, and still to this day, we're at, you know week 15 or something. Completely perfect. Like no health issues, perfect little baby. And we didn't and do any genetic testing.
00:28:04
Speaker
So we weren't totally sure like what we would end up with, right? Like we were okay with whatever, but we we really had no idea. um And he's perfect. He's our perfect. bills I think you said also, Caroline, that you you guys weren't even anticipating it working the first time.
00:28:21
Speaker
No, mean, we we we did not test our embryos. so we we had done all this research on having low AMH and without throwing out bunk medical science, because I'm not going to be able to quote it perfectly. um Our doctor, our team at Brigham, which was in Boston, basically said that, you know, given that you have low ovarian reserve,
00:28:43
Speaker
you know, there's this fall off rate as you wait to get to day five to a blastocyst. And they don't necessarily know if healthy embryos might be falling off on that period of waiting between day one and day five.
00:28:56
Speaker
So she was like, we'll freeze them day one. And then when you're ready to do a transfer, we'll thaw to day three, make sure they have the right number of cells and then we'll, we'll implant. I mean, she was like, i you know each one probably has a 30% success rate, um just given they're not tested, they're transferring early.
00:29:14
Speaker
um So we were like mentally, we were so mentally prepared for not to work that we got a puppy. if that gives you any indication of how certain we were that it wouldn't work. um And you know she's a good dog, but boy, we did not plan that well.
00:29:26
Speaker
She's one and she's that like, you know she's playing fourth fiddle because we've got now three kids. um But when Jana took that pregnancy test, it was almost like I go back to that luckiest unlucky person. you know like i So many things in my life, I've been the 0.5% on the lucky side. And so it makes sense that occasionally I'd be the 0.5% on the unlucky side.
00:29:54
Speaker
um So it makes everything a little bit easier to understand when you know when you think about it that way. Yeah. i Just knowing again, like you, you did all this research, you're anticipating, you know, worst case scenario and you have the facts on your side with it's, you know, 30% and I have low over. I mean, you have all of these reasons to, you know, really just not like you said, not think that, you know, things are going to work out and you're planning accordingly and you have, it's such a uncontrollable process.
00:30:32
Speaker
Just knowing that about yourself, Caroline, how, how did you kind of trust in this, you know, whole journey? You know, I think it goes back to me saying that I'm kind of, I've become more of that kind of woo-woo person. Um, I think the old version of me, the pre breast cancer version of myself would have had a really hard time not being in control.
00:30:57
Speaker
Um, Like my entire life is me trying to control everything. At least that's what it was prior to my diagnosis. You know, I was really upset when we got pregnant with her second, because i was like, this isn't the 22 month age gap that I wanted. um And, you know, in the end, like life has its own plan and you kind of have to figure out how to deal with it.
00:31:19
Speaker
um But the version of me that matched with Jana was totally prepared for this. And I think that I, I realized that yes, there are downsides to not being able to carry your own baby, right? Like feeling him kick every day was, I was i was worried I was gonna miss that a lot, but Jana was so communicative. She would send me videos of his little feet punching her in the stomach.
00:31:44
Speaker
And, you know, there was, I think that we had a really good communication cadence. Like I never felt, like Jana was texting me too much or not texting me enough. Like, I don't exactly know how we figured all that out without saying it, but for some reason, it was just a really good pairing. Like, I never felt sad. I mean, I went to a few appointments. I flew down to Florida for a few of the appointments so that I could see him on the ultrasound.
00:32:07
Speaker
um But honestly, I felt like I was able to enjoy the fact that I wasn't pregnant because Jana was so communicative that I was like, this is actually okay. I'm okay with it. And, uh,
00:32:18
Speaker
and I've always said, you know once the baby's born, nobody really knows how they got here. you know like i don't They know as much as you're willing to tell them.
00:32:29
Speaker
um And so I pretty much tell everyone now that we had our little ah little guy via carrier. But in at the when we were going through the process, I was like, am I gonna feel weird about the fact that I carried my first two and then I couldn't carry my third? like Is he gonna think,
00:32:47
Speaker
that I didn't want him or something, don't know, something like that. i was It didn't really make sense, but I was worried about all these different scenarios. And what I've actually come to realize is that like he has a whole nother family. Like he, Jana and Brian and Maple and Logan are like, you know, we're we're seeing them in in in March. Like we he's the luckiest kid in the world.
00:33:05
Speaker
And Lulu and Bear, my other two kids are obsessed with Maple and Logan. They call them the big kids. So, so I think that if you view things only kind of like in a myopic way, like only from the perspective of someone who is fighting this process, there it would probably be harder, but this was our this was our shot to have more kids. And so we, i don't know, I guess we took on a more positive light and it became something really amazing.
00:33:32
Speaker
i have I have friends all the time or people that I encounter who find out that I did this and they just are beside themselves. They're like, how could you do this? And how like how can you just hand over the baby and not you know have you know emotional attachment? And I think like,
00:33:51
Speaker
you have to go into it with the right mindset, of course. But I tell them all the time, like, of course I miss him and I miss Caroline and Matt and the kids. I miss them and like, those are like my best friends, you know, kind of way, but not like in a maternal, I need my baby kind of way, because he's not my baby. and And, you know, we knew this all going into it.
00:34:10
Speaker
um But ah yeah, she it's just, I think a lot of people don't understand it until they've gone through this experience too. yeah yeah i always explain it with it's not giving up it's giving back and the most thrilling part is of course we love to see baby and we love our lion king moment um but it's not it the the best part is seeing baby with their parents of course like that's like that's like the full circle yeah yeah oh i love that i love that okay jana going back to you know we touched on it earlier
00:34:49
Speaker
We have our whole Lion King moment. Little Zazu is here. That's not his actual name, just so you know. Full disclosure, full disclosure. Yes, that is not his name. Yes. It should totally be his Halloween costume, though. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's a good idea, Jana. actually hadn't thought that.
00:35:07
Speaker
Oh, that's brilliant. I love it. you kind of You've already alluded to it, but Jana, can you kind of share a little bit of your story as far as you know just...
00:35:18
Speaker
having to advocate for yourself? Yeah, so um we had a pretty uneventful journey being a surrogate and um I was really scared to have another
Postpartum Challenges and Instincts
00:35:33
Speaker
C-section. I did have some um issues during my C-section where the spinal tap rose too high. I felt like i couldn't breathe. So i had a little anxiety in that aspect. but um Delivering as a surrogate, the the whole experience was amazing. i i left the hospital very full.
00:35:52
Speaker
My heart was full, very happy for Caroline and Matt. and you know everything was just picture perfect. And then I came home and my blood pressure started to rise and i had called the doctor.
00:36:05
Speaker
um And she's told me to really worry about it. You know, I had a lot going on at home. My husband was getting ready to leave for a few weeks for the army. And I was pretty stressed out about that being that I just delivered a baby and I was going to be home with my own twins by myself. And, you know, just had a lot going on. And I just kept saying, well, you know, I just had a baby. That's why I'm feeling this way or my husband's leaving that's why i'm feeling this way or you know i have two kids to take care of a house to take care of that's why i'm tired you know and feeling this way um but something you know my blood pressure kept rising and then something in me just kept telling me like keep checking it
00:36:47
Speaker
um And again, I kept excusing it. My neighbor actually came over to my house at night. I think she was kind of worried about me. And she's told me, she's like, you know, we're here for you. if if you want to go to the hospital, we'll go. And I was like, no, I think we're okay. And Um, I, my daughter actually wanted ah to sleep with me that night because my husband was gone and, um, it's about a 45 minute drive from my house, went to the emergency room. i was instantly taken back. Once they took my blood pressure, the doctor came running in and she was like, you're not going anywhere. You're being admitted. I'm going to be very frank with you. You have postpartum preeclampsia, which
00:37:25
Speaker
I never had during pregnancy, so I had no idea that this could happen afterwards. yeah um She's like, we're going to do a head CT to check for a brain bleed. Like, we need to get you started medication right away and um all of this stuff. And I just kept thinking like, gosh, if I didn't decide to go in, if I didn't listen to that little internal voice saying like, yeah, let's just go get this checked out. I mean, who knows? I could have had a stroke or.
00:37:49
Speaker
Right. Right. I'm, I see just, again, just that theme of the both of you just, again, trying to convince yourself. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, right? Like as moms, we don't want anything to be wrong. Like we don't have time for anything to be wrong.
00:38:07
Speaker
Um, And, and again, just that continuing to listen to that intuition. Um, okay. So like you kind of had already gotten gotten us started Jana with, you know, we have this beautiful delivery moment and then post delivery it's, you know, okay, we've got deployment coming up and, you know, just, just life in general.
00:38:32
Speaker
And you kind of, you knew that something was wrong.
00:38:39
Speaker
were in the hospital. How did you kind of reconcile, you know, this almost kind of, you know, push away, it's not that big of a deal to you now, all of a sudden, like we're in the thick of it and we've got to figure this out.
00:38:53
Speaker
So it for me it was Really like when I went to go lay down and Maple, you know, Maple's already asleep because I was going to bed after her, but I just kept telling myself, oh my goodness, if something happens and nobody else is here and then she were to find me like that would just be horrible.
00:39:12
Speaker
um So I go to the hospital, find out the whole diagnosis. I'm in there. Uh, my sister actually came, my sister was actually also pregnant with her first child.
00:39:23
Speaker
Um, and she delivered three weeks after me, but, oh my gosh um, yeah, she came to the hospital, uh, to stay with me while I was in the hospital, recovering and they had me on, um, a magnesium drip to like help lower the blood pressure and all that kind of stuff.
00:39:39
Speaker
But to be honest, the thing that was really upsetting, um, and then something I had to like accept was that, you know, Caroline and I were in talking about possibly doing a sibling journey and the self-realization of like, oh man, now this is probably not gonna happen now because of this complication.
00:39:59
Speaker
and trying to focus on my health while also, you know, your hormones are out of whack. You just had a baby. My husband's gone. I'm away from my family now. And then also trying to like, you know, emotionally accept like, okay, this is probably not going to happen again, even though we had already talked, you know, about all these plans and coming to terms with that.
00:40:21
Speaker
um But also realizing that, even though I can't do that, I have definitely done enough and I've done a beautiful thing and that's okay. you know Even though I can't um experience this amazing experience and anyone who would is interested in being a surrogate, definitely do your research and reach out to someone and get more information because it has probably been one of the most meaningful things I've ever done in my life. And I would do it hands down in a heartbeat again if I could.
00:40:50
Speaker
But just you know talking to myself and acknowledging that even though the journey didn't end the way I was hoping it would, that it could continue in that sense, that it's okay and that it's enough.
00:41:03
Speaker
Oh, more than enough, Jenna. More than enough. For sure, but that is, it is it's so hard, especially, you know, right? Like both of you, you both had these these pictures of, you know, how either your family was gonna be created, Caroline or Jana, what, you know, you guys were gonna do together, you know, after and and moving forward. And it's so hard to to reconcile all of that and and make that shift.
00:41:33
Speaker
And, but at the same time, you know, especially when you're in the thick of it, it's, you know, I've got you i've got to, got I've got to do the thing that's right for me and right for my family. and and Exactly. Yeah.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah. I just kept telling myself, you know, um my children need a happy, healthy mom also. And so I've got to make sure that my health is at the forefront also. And then I'm making sure that I'm okay because they need a mom too. Yeah.
00:42:02
Speaker
And Jana's also been pumping and providing breast milk for for our little Zazu. yeah our Our son has only had breast milk. um So like you know, to say that delivering him was all you did, Jana, oh my gosh. You're also keeping him healthy with your kindergarten teacher antibodies, which he's never been sick. I'm certain that's why. um la Like it's just, and you know, Jana's family is gonna come visit us in March. Like we're,
00:42:32
Speaker
we're still very much connected. um I think that, you know, it would have been amazing to have another sibling journey with Jana, but like, this is how things were meant to play out. And now we have like friends.
00:42:44
Speaker
So, And, you know, our little guy has another um set of big kid siblings. And so our other kids. So it's, it's worked out really nicely for us. And I'm so glad Jana's healthy now. um When Jana texted me in the middle of the night saying that she was going to the hospital, I was like, good for you for listening to yourself. know, this is.
00:43:01
Speaker
She's like, you could have probably just saved your own life. Yeah. Yes. I think that, I think that there's a moment where each of us will probably have to save our own lives, you know, and it's, Better to learn that earlier rather than later so that you can you know share that story share the wisdom with other people.
00:43:17
Speaker
Right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, both of your stories, you know, they there's resiliency, there's advocacy, there's hope. What do you want other women to take away when it does come to listening to their bodies and trusting our own instincts?
00:43:35
Speaker
So for me, like with what specifically happened with the postpartum preeclampsia, I had no idea that that even could happen after birth. Like I knew it was something that happened during pregnancy.
00:43:46
Speaker
and i knew you could have you know blood pressure issues afterwards but i guess Going back to what we talked about before, it's so easy as someone who just has delivered a baby or a new mom or someone who's taking care of their kids to to i come up with all these excuses as to why it's okay that you're feeling that this way, but to really, you know, take a step back and make sure that you're okay too, that it's okay to not be okay and to go and check on it to make sure.
00:44:19
Speaker
um Because i just i always think back of what if I didn't, what if I was like, yeah, it's okay, you know I'm fine, I'm just recovering, i'm you know all the things, and then it could have been a lot worse. So just making sure that you're okay is okay to do.
00:44:36
Speaker
I think i would I would definitely second what Jana said. I also think for someone who is like me and is super numbers driven, um statistical unlikeliness is not the same thing as impossible.
00:44:48
Speaker
And I think that was really hard for me to wrap my head around initially. um And, you know, you get all those questions of like the whi me why you know, how did I end up getting breast cancer at 31?
00:45:02
Speaker
um But the truth is you've probably been like the 1% in something else that was good. um And so I think realizing that statistical probabilities and numbers and likeliness, like doesn't, it doesn't really mean anything when it comes down to like you, you're of one, you're one person, you know? And so i think for me that really helped because I was like, well, I mean, why wouldn't it have been me?
00:45:33
Speaker
Like in terms of all the other things that have gone really well in my life um and where luck has been very involved, um, I don't know why I wouldn't be unlucky once in a while. um And also knowing that,
00:45:47
Speaker
treatment options are so much more advanced, even than five years ago. um it would have been unheard of not to lose your hair in chemo. And not that that's the most important thing, but it did help me a lot to maintain normalcy. Like not everyone knew that I was going through cancer treatment. You know, I was walking around Boston, going through IVF with two drainage the you know ports on my side, but I was wearing a cute vest and no one knew.
00:46:11
Speaker
so like, honestly, I think that a lot of
00:46:16
Speaker
I have a science degree, but I did not appreciate how much science could could change dramatically change your life in a way that would both keep me alive and give me a third child.
00:46:28
Speaker
So you know when thinking about probabilities and science and logical and math, like you have to factor in your feelings and your gut instincts are important. like They're there for a reason. um So yeah, while that's a little muddled, that would probably be my biggest takeaway.
00:46:42
Speaker
with going along, you know, that science for, for anyone who's maybe just struggling with the idea of egg donation or surrogacy as a way to grow their family, or maybe it's something that they think they want to do and they're just not sure, you know, what, what would you each want to say to, to that person to take that first step?
Long-term Vision for Family
00:47:10
Speaker
I would say in terms of I've talked to someone yesterday who was thinking about, she had an emergency hysterectomy after her second and had kind of always wanted three, but her husband's like, we have two healthy kids, why would we keep going? Like, we're good.
00:47:26
Speaker
I think you have to think about what you want your life to look like in 10 years or 15 years, not now. Like now, yes, two kids is hard. Like my in in truth, like having the two kids that we had was challenging. And i was like, I don't know how we're gonna make this work, but we're in it for the party. Like I want the party where it's just my family. You know, that was what I had always wanted.
00:47:47
Speaker
um And I think, like I said, no one, I played college golf. And so I always think of there's no pictures on a scorecard. And that's very similar to building your family. It doesn't matter how you get there, but the Christmas card picture in 10 years is what your is what you want, right? Like that's how that's how your family is in 10 years. It doesn't matter how you got there. It doesn't matter the road it looked like to get there, right? In golf, like it doesn't matter if you hit a terrible shot, as long as you end up with a good score, that's all that matters.
00:48:15
Speaker
um I guess that would be my biggest piece of advice. Like think about how you want your life to look, not necessarily, you know, this moment right now. Yeah, I would just say, like, I think, like, small great things, right? This small moment, this small part of my life, this little chapter that I've done is going to have this huge, profound, you know, lasting impact on Caroline and Matt's life. But also, like, there's a human now, right? And he's going to grow up and he's going to do amazing things. And it's all because of this small thing that I've helped them do. And I just think that that's,
00:48:52
Speaker
you know, just really meaningful and touching. And, um, yeah, I would just say small, small, big things. Yeah, for sure. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. No. And I couldn't agree more.
00:49:05
Speaker
Okay. Ladies, you guys have given me so much of your time and you have, i mean, again, just such beautiful stories. And I so appreciate the candor and vulnerability. I have one last question for you and it's a fun one.
00:49:18
Speaker
Um, you guys have seen me this entire time sipping my lovely cup of coffee. And for anyone who knows me, I hardly go anywhere without one. Um, so I love to ask the question, what has filled your cup today, literally or figuratively, what has been the thing to fill your cup?
00:49:37
Speaker
and can go first if you're thinking, yeah I'll be literal. This is punch in the face, nitro cold brew, which my daughter thinks is the funniest thing in the entire world. It's like a a llama that I guess like g llamas kick. I don't know. It's a very strong nitro cold brew.
00:49:52
Speaker
I love them. I get them way too often. They're kind of expensive, but I'm like, it's worth it. I'm not going to Whole Foods or or to Starbucks, whatever. I'm just getting a coffee at Whole Foods. So I'll interpret you literally and say canned nitro cold brew.
00:50:05
Speaker
I have never heard of that. Oh my goodness. It's very good. i I drink a little bit off the top and then I add a little half and half makes it a little bit more easy to drink. Okay. Okay. I'm going to have to try that. That's a good insight. You'll remember a punch in the face. It's pretty, pretty punchy.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah. I would think that's hilarious. I feel like that falls in the category of like the liquid death water of like, oh yeah do you like a double take and you're like, wait, what is that? a Similar concept. Yes.
00:50:33
Speaker
ah Yes.
00:50:35
Speaker
Um, I guess for me, we're getting ready for the holidays right now and I'm just, I'm a very much like a Christmas person. I love Christmas.
00:50:47
Speaker
And um I'm the crazy person who wants to put their tree up like right now. i would like to note that it is September at this juncture that we are having this conversation. We have a creative way to get her tree up. got to share.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah. So I have every year I beg Brian. He's like, oh, it's too early. You're crazy. We're not doing that. He's like, always puts his foot down. Like, please. It's just so pretty. Why can't we do it longer?
00:51:10
Speaker
We want pretty things. Yes. Well, this year he was like, go ahead, Jana, just put the tree up. I think he was just tired of me asking. And I was like, wait, are you serious right now?
00:51:21
Speaker
And he's like, just just put it up. Well, we went to put it up and Maple, my daughter, she was like, what? It's not Christmas time. We still have Halloween and Thanksgiving. And what are you doing? And I was like, oh, my, I can't rob her of her childhood holiday you know experiences by putting the Christmas tree up too early. So We um started decorating the house. The tree is up, but it is wrapped in a white sheet and it's decorated as a ghost right now.
00:51:48
Speaker
It looks like a ghost. It's genius. It's a giant ghost. Tell me you're a kindergarten teacher without telling me you're a kindergarten teacher. yeah So it's a giant ghost and we've been decorating for Halloween and um I actually ah got some canvas prints done of when they were younger and I i printed out all these pictures of like years past and you know they're in their Halloween costumes and put them on the the TV stand and I've just been in my thoughts reminiscing of you know, all the memories we've had and all the years of them growing up and seeing their excitement this year. And even though it's so different, you know, I watch these little videos and have you squeaky voices like, there's a pumpkin, you know, their, their excitement for the holidays is so different now, but it's still just, just as special. And I don't know, that just fills my cup.
00:52:37
Speaker
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. It's the best. Oh, that's amazing. I love that. And I am definitely going to be thinking about that ghost Christmas tree for sure.
00:52:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'll have to send you a picture of that. Oh my gosh, I love it. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. i I mean, again, i love it. I feel like, you know, Caroline, your holiday is about to be that party that, you know, you're you're just gunning for. And Jana, that's just, that's a beautiful way to just, you know, continue to to look back on just all of the amazing things that you have done and those memories that you've created with your family and then moving forward with all of those. That's so beautiful. I love that.
00:53:18
Speaker
Well, thank you guys so much. This has been just absolutely amazing. And um I'm just, I'm so happy that we're here and that all of, all of those lucky, unlucky things brought us to the, to, to this moment.
00:53:33
Speaker
That's right. like The most beautiful mess. That's right. The most beautiful mess.