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Relationship Mistakes in Surrogacy (And How to Avoid Them)
58 Plays9 days ago
What makes a surrogacy journey thrive?
In this episode, Whitney is joined by Rachel Goldberg, LMFT and perinatal mental health specialist, to explore the crucial role of communication between intended parents and gestational carriers. Rachel explains how setting clear expectations, understanding attachment styles, and practicing self-awareness can reduce anxiety, build reassurance, and foster trust.
Packed with practical insights, this conversation will help intended parents, surrogates, and anyone supporting families navigate the emotional complexities of surrogacy with confidence and connection.
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Transcript
Common Pitfalls in Surrogacy Arrangements
00:00:00
Speaker
If you've ever wondered what really makes egg donation or surrogacy fall apart, it's not the paperwork or the protocols. It's the mismatched expectations and communication styles that lead to the small misunderstandings that quietly grow into big problems.
00:00:17
Speaker
Right, but see, there the often where like that mismatch comes into play again, in the matching, right, people are very responsive because they're in the beginning, you know, oh my gosh, she really likes me, or, you know, they really like me, let's you know, this is really working out, you know, I just got a text message, like about something, and it's very exciting.
00:00:35
Speaker
But then when you start to get into the nitty gritty of it, it starts to get a little bit much like, well, did you reschedule the appointment, you know, or why did you reschedule the appointment? And then maybe she kind of, you know, doesn't want to answer right away because it's like,
00:00:47
Speaker
I did, but I don't, you know, like I have to look back. I don't, you know, or I didn't yet. Like, I'm just not even going answer because I'm just going to make her anxious. That's Rachel Goldberg, a licensed therapist and perinatal mental health expert who specializes in infertility and third-party reproduction.
00:01:03
Speaker
Her work has been featured in Vogue, Women's Health, and Scary Mommy. And today, she's revealing the hidden dynamics that cause miscommunication in surrogacy relationships and how to fix them before they spiral.
Importance of Trust and Communication
00:01:17
Speaker
So secure is what you aim for, and that's the one where you trust that the other person has good intentions, that the other person is going to come through. You communicate really well. Inside this conversation, you'll learn the three most common mistakes intended parents and surrogates make when setting expectations, how to avoid misunderstandings before they start, and a weekly check-in structure that builds trust and connection.
00:01:45
Speaker
So whether you're exploring egg donation, preparing for a surrogacy match, or simply trying to understand your role in assisted reproduction, this episode will give you the clarity, support, and confidence to move forward.
00:01:58
Speaker
Enjoy!
Setting Early Expectations in Surrogacy
00:02:00
Speaker
So Rachel, I really have been really looking forward to this because I think one of the hardest parts of a surrogacy journey for both the surrogates and intended parents isn't, mean, yes, there's the paperwork, there's the medical stuff, but part of it is just like figuring out how to communicate.
00:02:19
Speaker
Did that text have too many emojis? Was that too much information? Was that not enough information? So you work with so many people in third party reproduction and I know you see this all the time. So I'm kind of curious, what kinds of, just right off the bat, what kinds of expectations do you think IPs and surrogates should be talking about early on um just to kind of set up that healthy relationship?
00:02:46
Speaker
Yes. In general, you know, of course, the big things that you want to talk about off the bat are I mean, not off the bat, but like very soon your other things like termination and, you know, vaccines like the things that are going to be real relevant in the journey. But in terms of what I think you're asking is communication.
00:03:06
Speaker
It is difficult because what ends up happening is people go into it with this idea of what it's going to look like. But remember, you're mostly going into it with a stranger unless it's a known person.
Evolution of Surrogacy Relationships
00:03:18
Speaker
And right what happens you know during the matching process and in the very beginning is people are enthusiastic about each other. Everyone's on their best behavior. Nothing.
00:03:28
Speaker
Big has happened. You know, nothing traumatic has happened. It's all just run of the mill. So everyone's excited and everyone thinks this going a very fruitful relationship. Everyone's on their best behavior. And then, you know, time goes by. And even if nothing big happens, time goes by and relationships start to shift because people start to go back to their normal lives.
00:03:49
Speaker
People start to show up in the way that they show up in just relationships in general. Right. It's honeymoon phase. And then now we're... We're back from our honeymoon. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about too, like a ah friendship or, you know, a romantic relationship, especially, right? Like oftentimes in the very beginning, there's so like the fireworks and the sparks and, um but then, you know, people go back to their normal lives and then you start to see how they really show up in a relationship.
00:04:13
Speaker
Sure. And so I think this is kind of an extension of that. And it's it's very hard to know in the very beginning what it's going to really look like. So you really want to try to suss out the way their personality is, the way they, you know, react to certain things. Are they quick responders?
00:04:30
Speaker
Do they write long novels? Are they someone who is, you know, needs to know the answer now? Or are they just tell me when you know kind of thing i think just by knowing those little things they seem so small but they actually can make huge difference in the relationship right so if you have some if you have a uh gestational carrier who is more laid back and you know just tell me when it comes through or just tell me when you know you know the answer to the latest results or something great you know she's not sitting back thinking about it she knows that it will come through when it comes through
00:05:04
Speaker
And perhaps there's a different gestational carrier who is like on pins and needles waiting. And she's thinking, well, if the results didn't come back, it must be bad. you know And then she's like bombarding you know the case manager or why aren't they calling me? Like, obviously, obviously they didn't like me or you know obviously my scan came back bad.
00:05:21
Speaker
and So and it's nothing to her, it's nothing bad. She's not a bad person because she does this and the other person is not bad because, you know, or aloof because they're more laid back. It's just a different style of of how people operate, right? It's just a different way of of how people are are in this world.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Which it's so super helpful to have those conversations. I know one of the questions that we ask our intended parents and surrogates, we're like, how do you want to receive bad news? Do you want me to call you? Do you want to text just so you can talk about it, you know, have your time and then we'll talk about it later.
00:05:54
Speaker
But I think, yeah, those questions and knowing kind of that temperament is really helpful, not only for, you know, a case manager and a clinic, but for that IPGC relationship of, you you know, Hey, I know she's going to take her time. She's going to get to it when she gets to it. And then, you know, responding accordingly and just knowing that about each other.
00:06:13
Speaker
Right. But see, there the often where like that mismatch comes into play is again in the matching, right? People are very responsive because they're in the beginning, you know, oh my gosh, she really likes me. Oh, you know, they really like me.
00:06:25
Speaker
Let's, you know, this is really working out. You know, I just got a text message like about something and it's very exciting. But then when you start to get into the nitty gritty of it, it starts to get a little bit much like, well, did you reschedule the appointment? You know, or why did you reschedule the appointment? And then maybe she kind of, you know, doesn't want to answer right away because it's like,
00:06:43
Speaker
I did, but I don't, you know, like I have to look back. I don't, you know, or I didn't yet. Like, I'm just not even going answer because I'm just going to make her anxious. Or, you know, um if you have a gestational carrier who maybe has ah something happened during the pregnancy, nothing crazy, but like maybe she's spotting a little bit and, you know, she feels, I just kind of want to get this checked out before I reach out to them and worry them. I know that if I ah reach out, they're going to like call me incessantly. going to want to FaceTime. They're going So again, it's it's just this like back and forth. But of course, if you're an IP, you want to know that she's spotting, right? So it's it's a very just hard nuanced situation where you're trying the best you can, but also you're kind of honoring who you are in relationships at the same time.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I think taking the time to know that about yourself, I think so many times, like you said, everybody's on that best behavior. Everybody wants you to like each other. i'm And it is important in that, you know, to not have a mismatch of, you know, hey, I love that you're, oh, whatever, whatever they want, whatever she wants, you know, that kind of thing.
00:07:47
Speaker
That's, that's so sweet. But let's, let's really be introspective. I think you, you know, You write so thoughtfully about attachment styles. So for someone new to that idea, can you walk us through like those main those three main styles and how they show up in this type of relationship, especially when the intended parents and surrogates are coming in with different ways of relating to stress and, you know, or uncertainty?
Attachment Styles Impact on Communication
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, so okay, so attachment theory, I'm going to explain in a way that people first really resonate, which is usually between romantic relationships. It's way it starts in childhood. But I think when people really start to pay attention to it's later in romantic relationships. So there's kind of like a way you can kind of gauge the tap And I want to stress that it's not static. So people can show up differently in different relationships. It can also change over time. It can change based on what's happening in their life. It's kind of like a response to stress in a way. Stress in a relationship. Uncertainty, really. And, yeah you know, what a surrogacy. Uncertainty.
00:08:50
Speaker
Right? Right. Right. Okay, so there's actually four types, but I would say the main three the main three are secure, which is what we all would like in life. Then there's anxious, avoidant, and then there's one that's a mix of anxious and avoidant. It's called preoccupied attachment.
00:09:05
Speaker
That one's a little bit more nuanced, and I can get into it in a sec. but um So secure is what you aim for and that's the one where trust that the other person has good intentions, that the other person is going to come through. You communicate really well when there is like a rift, you're not afraid to bring it up and to just communicate about it thinking the other person is going to be very reasonable and have your interest and in their interest in mind. It's a very, it's an approach of safety of i I know this is safe, I know I'll be able to handle this, I know that they are reasonable people, I know we can work this through. i you know, like, yes, this does not feel good.
00:09:38
Speaker
But also, we can work it out. The anxious attachment is the one so so think about in a relationship where you are in a new relationship, and you're hoping it's gonna be really excited, you're hoping gonna go really well.
00:09:51
Speaker
And maybe the person is not responding to your text message, you know, you said something like, Oh, I really liked our date or something like that, you know, I really enjoyed that. And they take a little while to respond right and now you're like why they responding you're starting to spiral you're calling your friends you're like i don't understand it went so well i understand why they're responding why aren't they reaching out you know like and then checking to see if it's red or yeah like exactly every time you get text message you're like is that you know um and then disappointment when it's not like so just this like hyper awareness of what's happening you know it can show another way in a relationship too
00:10:24
Speaker
you know, somebody's late for late to coming home after like a work meeting and you, you know, you start to spiral about it like I want, what does it mean? the Why are they late? Like, why aren't they call me? Why, you know, did something happen on the way home? You know, could be that safety could be that are they doing something behind my back?
00:10:38
Speaker
All that kind of stuff that that anxiety that very hard to sit with, you kind of ruminate about it. That's more of the anxious attachment. So how it could show in surrogacy is, um you know, same thing with text messages, you know, I just sent them that message about the baby kicking, you know, like a lot this last hour, you know, why didn't they respond? Like, are they are they like worried? I was like doing something to make the baby kick is you know, do you think something's wrong Are they like upset that I told them that because like she feels bad that the kicking is in my stomach? Like, east you know, like and maybe none of those things are happening. Like it could literally be absolutely nothing. It could just be the person was in a work meeting or doing something else.
00:11:17
Speaker
But the just the thoughts of why I'm not getting the response I needed in that moment, it starts to spiral the person. um Then there is, so then there's avoidant attachment and that's the one where emotion is is is a lot. you You feel pressure to respond or to fix someone's feelings um when someone has an issue. And so for them, it's just easier to avoid, avoidant, right? So um take a step back, get some space. They're they're more independent.
00:11:45
Speaker
less wanting emotional connection um or emotional connection is just harder to come by so in in a relationship it can look like the person who doesn't text back right away right so i'm not really sure if this is if this relationship is going well and you know they're a little eager so i'm just instead of responding and saying you know i'm kind of busy right now let's talk later they just ignore um step back you know it's i don't want to deal it's too much right now um Or if there is like a conflict in a relationship, something to the effect of, hey, I thought you were gonna call me last night and you never did.
00:12:21
Speaker
And you know instead of, oh my God, I forgot, I'm gonna apologize right now, which is like more of a secure thing, right? Like this was not a great thing for me, let me call right now or least send a text saying, you're right, I should have, I'm gonna call you soon as I have some time.
00:12:35
Speaker
um It's more like, oh yeah, i That's uncomfortable. I don't want to. Yeah, I did mess up and I don't even know what to do with this. So, just going to put it away. I'm just not even going think about it right now.
00:12:46
Speaker
um And so, that is more avoided in surrogacy that could show someone's more just putting like the thumbs up or, you know, hearting something and just kind of not like adding any extra flavor to it.
00:13:02
Speaker
You know, if if there is a conflict, it's kind of like being very short in your responses, like not wanting to really deal with it or just wanting, you know, wanting to ignore it for now and until you can't anymore.
00:13:15
Speaker
um It's the person who doesn't say I'm spotting because like, I don't wanna deal with those feelings that might come up with that, or are they gonna blame me or, So I'm just not even going to anything until I know more, you know?
00:13:27
Speaker
um It's just an avoidant of uncomfortableness of that, you know, um the relationship between the two people, the trying the vulnerability between two people that might come up, you know? so It's almost like a like a fight, flight, and freeze.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And it's just, i yeah I don't know what to do, so I'm just... Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. And it's it's so nuanced because you know you can you can say, oh, well, so the the person who's being very controlling, and but they must be anxious, right? And maybe, but maybe not. There's a difference between like anxious and controlling. So anxious would be more of the effect of... I know I'm bothering you, I know I keep asking, but you know, do you have enough ah prenatal vitamins? Like, sorry, I know like I'm asking a lot, like I really know, like I'm so sorry, and like over apologizing kind of thing, versus, you know, are you, do you sure, are you sure you have enough? Because you need to have enough and you need to be taking them, you know?
00:14:24
Speaker
more matter of fact. So that is a little bit more of I need to be in control versus um anxious. We'll get right back to the show, but I wanted to take a moment to let you know that for the past 18 years, we at egg donor and surrogate solutions have had the honor of walking alongside women who didn't just dream about making a difference.
00:14:43
Speaker
They said yes, yes to helping someone else's dream come true. Yes to helping create a happy family by becoming a surrogate. Whether you're just curious about surrogacy or ready to take the next step, we'd love to support you.
00:14:57
Speaker
You can download our surrogate compensation guide or schedule a quick 15 minute call with our education team at create a happy family.com. Our agency's promise is to give you the autonomy to choose the family you help and set your compensation as you promise to give a parent the greatest gift one can give a child of their own.
00:15:19
Speaker
It's okay to have questions. This is a big decision, but if you've ever wondered whether surrogacy might be a fit for you, this is our invitation to find out. All right, let's get back to the show.
00:15:30
Speaker
Based off those attachment styles, what do you wish more intended parents and surrogates understood about each other emotionally before beginning a journey with those things in mind?
00:15:46
Speaker
I mean, I think it would be great if they kind of knew like what type of person, you know, how they relate in in relationships in general. So are they someone who does respond to text quickly? Are they someone who writes a lot? Are they someone who over apologizes, who asks a lot of questions, who needs constant check-ins?
00:16:03
Speaker
Or are they someone who wants to kind of live their own life, do their own thing, and please just trust me, I got this, right? So I think if you if you come to this as an IP and you've had a lot of trauma,
00:16:15
Speaker
And you've been through a lot and you're very anxious about letting go of this control i think it's really good if you're set up with someone who um Is has a secure attachment?
00:16:25
Speaker
um I mean that's I mean everyone of course wants a secure attachment But she's definitely not an avoidant person right because what's gonna end up happening is that IP is gonna push that person away I mean it's gonna make that it even worse right so although you don't want an anxious anxious anxious it almost would be a little bit better because at least they're all on top of it over apologizing all the time and you know it does create a little bit more anxiety in the situation but it also is relatable and you know they're talking a lot yeah um whereas yeah like so and with the avoidance i mean again like that can almost seem transactional but sometimes it's not so if you think about like uh
00:16:59
Speaker
maybe an IP in China, right, their culture is a little bit different. So they are more respect boundaries, don't overstep. So that could seem aloof or that could seem avoidant, but it's not necessarily. So again, these are nuanced. So I think knowing, first of all, their background, someone's background, like a little bit, and then how they communicate, how they like to communicate is important.
00:17:22
Speaker
If there is things that come up, do they want to quickly get on top of it and talk about it together? Or does one person wanna just take the lead, you know reach out to the doctor, figure it out and then come together, right? So i think just how how involved do you wanna be in in all the conversations is important to know.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. in our in our application for both intended parents and surrogates, one of the you one of the things is what what type of relationship are you
Communication Preferences and Expectations
00:17:51
Speaker
looking for? love...
00:17:53
Speaker
eight i love One of my favorite things, I had a surrogate who she, she was just, she was so upfront and honest about it. And I was like, this is so, this is so great.
00:18:04
Speaker
She, she just, she said something along the lines of, I have five kids and I'm a teacher. And the, it's just, it it's not that I don't,
00:18:15
Speaker
it's not that I'm trying to avoid communication. It's just literally, i'm if you text me during the day, I'm not gonna be able to get to it until you know after school. And even then it's only for this select time because of the five kids. But please know, if there is an emergency, I will absolutely make that my priority. It's just,
00:18:33
Speaker
If you text me on, you know, at 10 a.m. and you're like, hey, what are you craving today? Probably not going to get to it until 7 p.m. um And I was like, that's so that's so helpful and that's so honest.
00:18:44
Speaker
And that just that does nothing but set you up for six success on both sides. right and the thing is it's hard because some people don't know what they want right everyone wants this fantasy of going to be best friends but that doesn't work often because one once they start to get to know each other maybe they just don't have a lot in common and two if something comes up an issue but you know that friendship now of a sudden is you know a little more fragile right you know so again communication is so key in that but not everyone comes to communicate some people again do the avoiding or some people are overly
00:19:18
Speaker
anxious about it. You know, if you're thinking about like an IP who is is it more anxious and and reaches out like at, i don't know, 9 p.m. at night about something and doesn't, you know, and J.C.' 's asleep and doesn't respond, like that person could spiral the entire night, right? Sure.
00:19:36
Speaker
So just kind of knowing a little bit about yourself to express like, hey, i'm ah I'm a late night person. So you might, you know, is it okay to respond late night? Oh, thank you so much for telling me. i I am out by like eight.
00:19:48
Speaker
So, you know, if you say anything after eight, you're not gonna hear back from me till the morning, but I promise I'll say something in the morning, right? Just even like little nuanced things like that can make a big difference in the relationship because even if it wasn't intentional,
00:20:00
Speaker
and someone didn't respond back. Now that person already has this like, a feeling of, you know, I was it because she was sleeping or she just didn't want to talk, you know, so I created a whole story.
00:20:13
Speaker
people Yeah, right. right yeah Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's a vulnerable position to throw people into an intimate setting so early on. What would you say are maybe some common mismatches in expectations between surrogates and intended parents that maybe show up mid journey? So you are kind of past that honeymoon phase.
00:20:37
Speaker
what What would you say how do you seen kind of are maybe the most common? how much updating they want, how much you know information they want. And it's hard to know upfront how much you're going to want, or even if it changes. So maybe the IP says, we love to know everything. So we want a surrogate that does write novels, that is you know you know constantly giving us updates. And she means it because maybe her first journey, that's what she wanted. But now she has a an infant, right? Or a child or something to take care of because if it's their second journey.
00:21:08
Speaker
And so there's this mismatch because now it's actually overwhelming. Like i don't I don't want the novel, right? I don't want all that. And so now the surrogate's left with like, but that's what I thought we were gonna have. And so who am I telling this to? You know, from, I think one thing people don't realize from a gestational carrier point of view is they go into this, right? With often a hope of like some kind of friendship, right? Like they're the star of the show, they're getting a lot of attention and they are in the beginning.
00:21:34
Speaker
um But then, you know, once we're kind of midway, if nothing is happening, it kind of drops off a little, people kind of just move on with their life. But the thing with the gestational carrier that's different this time is in her pregnancy, everyone was asking about it, everyone was talking about it, everyone was like excited for the baby to be born.
00:21:52
Speaker
That's a big shift, right? Like grandma doesn't care so much anymore. It's kind of like, oh, cool. You know, husband's maybe a little bit annoyed, you know, once in a while. It's not anymore like about you, you know, about the baby that's going to come.
00:22:08
Speaker
It's different. And so for someone who expected to be in this like very like open communication, that's like a stark difference than what she expected, right? And so then that's tough for her. And so either she's going to become maybe overly anxious about it and maybe they didn't like me or they don't, you know,
00:22:25
Speaker
um um Maybe I did something wrong or maybe she just you know starts to do the avoidant thing. It's just kind of like, okay, well, I guess that's that. And you know I'm not gonna give them so many updates and kind of pulls back you know in a way to say, well, then I'm checking out.
Addressing and Resetting Communication Issues
00:22:41
Speaker
her When things like that happen, how would you suggest handling a reset of the relationship in, in a way that's maybe just non-defensive.
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, you know, I've noticed that, um, we don't talk as much and, you know, I thought maybe we should catch up, you know, on like a FaceTime for a little bit and then just kind of talk about like what's going on in our lives so I can feel more connected again.
00:23:12
Speaker
And then during that conversation, you can say, i would love it if, you know, I could reach out a little bit more and get more feedback on like how you're feeling about things. Um, But, you know, if that's too much, just let me know. And then maybe the case manager can step in in that sense.
00:23:27
Speaker
But I think just having a conversation one-to-one, not over text, not over the phone, where someone's juggling 10 things is is really important to get that connection back. I mean, obviously, in-person would be amazing if you can go to an ultrasound or do something like that, but that's not always...
00:23:43
Speaker
that doesn't always work you know but I think a lot of times it's also just about um you're not communicating as much as I as I need and I don't want to press to you because like also you're holding my baby right or like if it's that way um and you know it becomes this this game of I don't know how much to say i don't want to to like let her know that I'm like thinking these things because then she's gonna think I don't trust her and it's not that I don't trust her I just need more information so it's a really sticky situation I think the best thing you could do is to try to come together and talk about this and
00:24:18
Speaker
And I think what would help surrogates too is is to set up ahead of time that, hey, sometimes and like communication drifts happen in relationships and these kind of relationships. And it doesn't mean anything is wrong. It just means that, you know, things are are Busy and and yo and like so I want you to know if that happens if like you start to feel like something doesn't feel right Are you starting to get anxious about something or you're starting to feel like you want to pull back?
00:24:45
Speaker
Just let us know so maybe we can talk about it together, right? Like see the early signs and oftentimes if you look you you will see signs, you know, you'll see text messages getting slower you will see um eat the you know like the gestational carrier maybe saying things like uh your baby as opposed to this little baby girl you know um you can almost see it in the language a little bit right um of how they are taking a little bit longer to respond to things um being shorter in the answers you know these are all signs that maybe there's pulling back and then the opposite is if you start to see uh more over apologizing um more like very long explanations for things
00:25:26
Speaker
you know I'm so sorry I didn't pick up the phone. It's because my child like fell on the playground and like bumped their head and then I had to like, it's like, okay, just my child fell on the playground, you know, or whatever. um So I think you can you can you can usually start to see signs that maybe someone's feeling a little bit uncomfortable in the relationship, but most people don't pick up on it until the conflict is.
00:25:48
Speaker
I think also there's kind of, and and you you've kind of already said it where there's, there are kind of those natural and and flow ebbs and flows, especially in part of the journey, right? Like at the beginning it's, you know, okay, we're doing, we're we're doing all these things. We're, we're going to medical screening, we're getting the psych evaluation, we're doing legal where, you know, now we're getting medication. Now we're doing a transfer. Like there's so much that's happening.
00:26:12
Speaker
And then that first little bit, like when you go to the OB, b there's not a whole lot happening. You get your once a month, you know, appointment and you're just kind of living life for a good period of time. So it is this there's a natural dip in going from update, update, update. Now we have this to.
00:26:34
Speaker
There's not a whole lot to say, just there's just naturally not a whole lot to say, which I think it you know one so Some of the advice that's been given before has been, that's that great part about you took the time to build a relationship, you know if if that's what you're looking for outside of just baby and outside of just that. And it is, you know hey, saw that funny show that you and I were talking about, or hey, how are the kids?
00:26:59
Speaker
Or, hey, what's for dinner? And saw this recipe. And it's that part of the relationship and not just IPGC. And it's hard too if you're an IP that doesn't know much about pregnancy. Let's say you're a gay couple who never really was around pregnancy before. And you know, your guys are like talking about everything in the beginning, like we said, like, you know, the honeymoon, it's like everyone's busy doing screenings and the next step. And and then all of a sudden there's like this low and it's like, wait, what happened to the GC? You know, she over us like where it's just,
00:27:34
Speaker
Nothing's happening, you know, absolutely nothing is happening. So i think, yeah, again, it's like trying to know ahead of time what what the flow of things typically is.
Structured Communication Plans
00:27:44
Speaker
And then moving on from there, knowing as much as you can to about the other person, you know, I think one good thing that gets skipped a lot is the joint session, right? A lot of times people don't do that joint session in the beginning, they'll do the psyche valve, and maybe the IPs will have a consult with the mental health professional. But Often that joint meeting is skipped, but tell you, you learn a lot about someone during that joint session, especially if that person has a partner, like the gestational carrier as a partner.
00:28:11
Speaker
um You get to see how they relate to that partner. You get to see, you know, just different nuances. You really get more of a feel for like who they are right off the bat, which can tell you a lot.
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, i I completely agree. It's for a gender and surrogate solutions. It's a requirement that joint session. It's just part of our own. Like, yeah, this is this is something that is like you said, there's there's such benefit to it.
00:28:36
Speaker
That's fantastic. I love that you guys do that. Yeah. um And yes, I completely agree. I think there's so much that you can. i just witness on your own in just watching each other.
00:28:49
Speaker
um and And there's great questions that are are being asked during that, that, you know, it gives you opportunity to, I always just say, it gives you just a good, solid foundation.
00:29:01
Speaker
um And then, you know, and moving forward from there. when When it comes to that anxious attachment where someone is seeking that extra reassurance or they have that fear of, you know,
00:29:15
Speaker
connection, what, and I know you've kind of, I know you've already alluded to, you know, let's find a way to to to talk about it and and things like that. But maybe what are some more subtle, just helpful ways to support?
00:29:29
Speaker
It's a great question. um So for someone who is anxious, when you start to recognize that they're anxious person, um I think the best thing to do is to let them know the structure of the communication.
00:29:41
Speaker
That's always very helpful if they know ahead of time what's going to happen. and so I know nothing's really happening right now because we are in the second trimester and it's pretty slow. So what we're going to do though is we're going to check in with you every Tuesday at 4 p.m.
00:29:58
Speaker
That way if there's like you know ah just a lull of communication instead of overthinking, I know even if I am like getting ahead of myself and it's overthinking because I sent a text and all I got back was a thumbs up, I already know on Tuesday at 4 p.m.
00:30:14
Speaker
we're going you know, check in and that relieves so much pressure. And then maybe for that person who's more avoidant, who doesn't want to have so much of that check in, it could be a more to the effect of um we're going to reach out when we think it's like a good time to, you know, check in because something has happened in the journey, you know, or there's been an ultrasound or, you know, something is going on that we want to like talk about it.
00:30:42
Speaker
But other than that, you know, You're good. we're We're okay. If you have anything you want to say to me, you can say it, but I'm not you know expecting a text from you or expecting anything. And also then when you do reach out to that person who's more avoidant, it's just keeping it short. Don't over explain things. you know Were you able to schedule that appointment?
00:31:02
Speaker
Great. What time is it? You know, you don't need to talk about everything else. You know, do you know what's going to happen during that appointment? Like, what you know, are you what's happening that morning? Are you going feel okay? Are you gonna have caffeine that morning?
00:31:13
Speaker
You know, none of this stuff is necessary, right? Sure, sure. Absolutely. So you've kind of, you've said this before with, you know, the secure attachment style that it sometimes can be overlooked because they're not reactive. It is sort of,
00:31:32
Speaker
every There's trust, there's go with the flow, we're giving the benefit of the doubt, you know just all of those things. What's important to remember about supporting someone and staying connected with with them when they are secure?
00:31:48
Speaker
Yes, so just I think first people who are secure, I think they really do a good job taking it out on their own, right? They don't need so much support on the side from the agency there. They're really good about handling it themselves. So they're quick to if there's an issue, they're quick to bring it up, because they're not afraid to bring it up. They know that they can hold their own. And they also know that the other person um can handle whatever they're dishing out or that they can handle a you know a rupture if something happens. So instead of you know leaving it so okay let's say I'm gonna give you an example um someone is out with their friends a gestational carrier and her friends are drinking and so like there's you know they're having dinner and there's like wine on the table and
00:32:31
Speaker
you know, on Instagram, the IP saw it is like freaking out. Where are you? What's going on? Then all of sudden the agency's calling, what's going on? Freaking out, right? So someone who is maybe secure might, you know, might address it, not not feel like, well, you know, F them, I'm not responding. Now that's a dinner. you know They might, they might say, Okay, look, I can see how that could be upsetting. I'm just gonna just give me a minute, you know,
00:32:55
Speaker
you know, call either the IP of the agency, whichever feels the best and just say, hey, totally understand why, you know, someone was stressing about that. I'm i'm just out with my friends. I'm not drinking anything, I promise, you know, and I'll give you all the give them a call tomorrow.
00:33:07
Speaker
Right. to To smooth it over. But, yeah you know, all is good. very It's very it's very secure in that they understand why the person might be upset and not thinking that the person is like attacking them, but more that they're just only anxious in what they saw.
00:33:22
Speaker
Right. Whereas someone who's maybe anxious is Oh my God, that wasn't me. like I'm going to have my friends call and and tell that and tell you that it wasn't that it wasn't me. right like i I need to like really show them. I need to prove it to them. I need to justify everything I'm doing. right i Because I feel so bad and I don't want them to hate me now and I i don't want them to think I'm not a good servant now. And i yeah right um and then you know for the the avoiding one would well get off my back. Like I am allowed to live my life. Right. And just kind of like, so I'm just not even going to respond, you know, let them think whatever they want to think and then I'll deal with it later.
00:33:56
Speaker
So I think so if you're secure, right, like you have that understanding that not everyone operates the same way and that's OK and you can, you know, try to like fix it as best you can. But you don't have to over apologize and you don't have to avoid either. No, that's perfect.
00:34:13
Speaker
Is there Is there ever a ah Goals, kind of the word that I would use, but is there is there ever a ah way that you can move that anxious or avoidant to more
Developing Secure Attachment Over Time
00:34:32
Speaker
secure? Or is it more so you just understand that attachment and then that's what you, that's how you want to work? I think it's hard to shift it within a surrogacy journey. Maybe by maybe by the time...
00:34:46
Speaker
they're doing a sibling journey. It could have shifted by now because now so much trust has been built from that first one. um In relationships though, they do, you know, you you can, what's called um earn secure attachment, which is, it's basically when you are with someone who's pretty secure and you start to get that safety, um safety with vulnerabilities, you know, safety with, you know,
00:35:07
Speaker
with um not knowing what's going on. So like, you know, vulnerability, if you're avoidant, like you start to learn that it's okay to be vulnerable, you're not gonna, you're not saying anything wrong, you're not gonna be left. And then for someone who's very anxious, just trusting that the person's there, that they're safe, um then you can kind of like earn it. You know, it's not that you're earning it because like you're working towards anything, but necessarily it's just kind of like, that's what's called earned attachment.
00:35:29
Speaker
Right, just becoming familiar. Yeah, but you know, you have to think about too, like it could show up just, you know, transitionally. So if the gestational carrier is maybe having an issue with her own partner, let's say where she's now like finding things out that like are very hard for her to hear. And now she's starting to feel anxious about that relationship that can then, you know, present as over attaching to the IPs because she's looking for security somewhere. Right. Sure. um So like, again, it's so nuanced. It's so hard. I think so. Just understanding your own patterns is really helpful because then you can,
00:36:03
Speaker
take some time before responding or look at your own patterns of why am I not responding? um It's a, you know, it's it's a little bit self reflective in a way um of trying to understand both, both perspectives. But again, when we are in stressful situations, this is when attachment issues show up the most right when we're under stress.
00:36:22
Speaker
And so that's why it's helpful for the agency to know also a little bit about how they are, you know, so if something happened, and you know that your gestational carrier is someone who needs space,
00:36:33
Speaker
to process it, then you kind of stick with the facts and you give them space. and You don't need do you want to talk to a therapist. like How are you feeling? Like, let's, you know, like give them a minute to breathe. And then if it's someone who is going to be like very, what are the IPs doing? Are they thinking about like, are they mad at me? Are they, you know, that's the person who let's have someone talk to you for a little bit. Let's, let's keep you in the loop, you know, often.
00:36:53
Speaker
um So it's just, it's a lot about knowing the kind of, communication that person resonates with and what they need. um And again, it's nuanced to know, you know, so you have to really like kind of suss it out in the beginning.
00:37:08
Speaker
Again, you can kind of see clues based on how they respond, how quickly they respond, how much they respond. Yeah, no, for sure. When, when it is those moments of high stress or disappointment, or, you know, just everything is emotionally charged, what would you say, or maybe some good, just go-to phrases i that can kind of just help keep that relationship grounded?
00:37:33
Speaker
So if it's an anxious person, very much validating, I know this is really hard, you're doing a great job, everything you're doing is great, nobody's putting any blame on you, like just fit a lot of reassurance, right?
00:37:45
Speaker
Checking in often, um anytime there's an update, checking in, even if there's no update saying, hey, and you know we may not have an update from the doctor, you know, because it's the weekend for you know a couple days, but I'm gonna check in with you on Sunday at this time, right? just Just again, knowing that someone is, they're not forgotten, nobody forgot the situation,
00:38:05
Speaker
they still They still are on board with her. i think that's an important piece for the anxious, for the avoidant. Again, it's I know this is really hard. um We're here if you need us and I know you like space. So please just know we're here if you need us.
00:38:20
Speaker
I am going to check in with you, you know, on Monday at 12, if we haven't heard back, just to kind of just to say, hey, we haven't heard back. Sit tight, right? Just to kind of like let them know, but not to then ask them how they did this weekend, how they're feeling. Just again, this is what your goal was to just, and I think ask the gestational player or the IPs what what they want in that situation. ask them, do you want me to, you know, tell you every step of the way what's happening?
00:38:47
Speaker
And if they say yes, please, then do it. um Don't may over promise and then not. And if they say no, respect that, then you don't need to tell them every single update. Yeah, no, for sure.
Self-Reflection and Adaptation
00:39:00
Speaker
If you're in a match, and you're, you know, feeling emotionally activated, what are maybe some questions that you can ask yourself you know, in those moments to get yourself grounded. And I think even maybe while you're sitting there and reflecting, you know, hearing this and thinking, you know, okay, how, how do I react in those conversations? What are some good, you know, just reflection questions that you would ask yourself maybe figure out how you land? Right. these what what I think the biggest, the best question, why am i
00:39:31
Speaker
behaving this way, you know whether it's ruminating or stepping back. you know why Why am I spiraling right now? is it Is it really something they said? and Did they really attack me or am I reading into that text message? um you know Is it because I have silence right now?
00:39:49
Speaker
And then to to question it, does silence mean they don't like me? Does silence mean something's wrong? you know No. And ask your friend. you know well Because i sometimes like when you're in it, you can't see it, right?
00:40:01
Speaker
But when you when you're out of it or someone is talking to you they're like, no that's fine. like You didn't say anything wrong at all. you know don't Don't follow up. Because like you know so the person who's anxious is going to now follow up, right?
00:40:13
Speaker
Did I say something wrong? I'm going to text them and say, did I say something wrong? Or I'm going to explain something again. i'm gonna i'm gonna Because you know the way I wrote that, I can see that they might have taken it out of context. So I'm going to now rephrase it.
00:40:25
Speaker
Whereas the friend could be like, Yeah, they're good. They might, I can read that perfectly. it doesn't sound, you know, like anything weird and they will probably respond when they're ready.
00:40:37
Speaker
So yeah, I think just getting perspective. I think people who know themselves. So again, you can always ask yourself the question, like, how do you respond when you're in a new relationship and that person's not texting you back? And if it's a, you kind of get cold and well, forget it, then I'm just not, you know, i'm blocking them or i'm staying silent.
00:40:56
Speaker
You're more on the avoidance side. You're going to need the more space. If you are the person who is going to spiral, you overthink every single thing, you know, you are wondering why they sent five emojis instead of six since last time they sent six, you are the anxious type.
00:41:10
Speaker
So you get, you get, you get clues, you know, Yeah, for sure, for sure. For someone listening to this who is about to enter a match, what's one thing that they could say or do to build a good, strong, open connection.
00:41:30
Speaker
Be honest about that part. So if we're talking about attachment, I like over communication. I text a lot. um I want to call a lot. I want to know everything that's happening. You will not bother me. I promise you will not bother me.
00:41:43
Speaker
The more the merrier versus someone who's going to say like that teacher, I'm busy. um I care so much. If anything happens, i promise you will be the first to know.
00:41:55
Speaker
But also, you probably will not hear from me often. right and set that expectation from the front so everyone understands um and then also it's important to talk about how again kind of you said the same thing with like how would you want bad news delivered what do we want to do when there's conflict um i think someone might say i if there's something that's happening in the pregnancy you know um i want my like it's let's say it's two ips i want my husband to handle it, call him first, because if you call me, I'm going to flip out.
00:42:27
Speaker
and you know, he knows how to tell me in a different way. So, um you know, kind of just knowing how you want to do it. Or if there's a conflict that happens, you know, like one person doesn't agree about something, you know, oh, we want to do the amnio and the, ah to you know, gestational carriers, like I know I said I would, but I, you know, set it for these certain things, and it doesn't feel like this is warranted, whatever.
00:42:48
Speaker
how How do we come together with that? Right? So like, do you guys want to each separately talk to the doctor? Or do you guys want to talk to the doctor at the same time? Like, what's going to be the most helpful for you? And if you kind of know ahead of time, what's going to be helpful.
00:43:01
Speaker
But again, sometimes you don't. So just asking those questions, you know, what's going to be the most helpful for you right now? Is it to talk to them? Or is it not to talk to them instead of saying, well, we need to work this out. So where we're all going to talk together right now.
00:43:12
Speaker
And I feel like that's a great way that, you know, from an agency perspective where when you're clued into these types of you know, just behaviors, being able to handle, you know, situations like that, or, you know, exactly to your point, Hey, I'm i'm going to call you on Monday at 12.
00:43:31
Speaker
If I haven't heard and keeping things short and simple or checking in often and, you know, just things like that. I feel like that's super helpful, especially just in supporting that the IP and GC relationship as well. Right.
00:43:45
Speaker
Yeah. Cause then I'm, and I'm actually curious, like for your journeys, which like, where would you have labeled yourself in this? Oh, good question. i'm was a pretty secure type.
00:43:57
Speaker
I was a pretty, you know, go with the flow, know, that kind of thing. I was also, my first journey, was, parents and parents had a kiddo and had done surrogacy before.
00:44:10
Speaker
So they were also really secure in, you know, hey, like we we kind of know what's going on and you've carried a baby and we haven't. So whatever you did before, do it again. Like, so they were pretty secure and I think their security put me at ease.
00:44:26
Speaker
And then I was just kind of go with the flow. Second journey, I think, again, I was still secure, but um ah but I did have to do a lot more communication because mom was a little more nervous.
00:44:38
Speaker
um But I knew that. Right. And so you right you knew it. So I'm guessing when she would reach out, like, maybe with over information or wanting over, you know, a lot of information, I'm guessing you didn't feel that she was being controlling. I'm guessing you understood it as anxiety and- Very much. I knew where it was coming from. Right, that's secure. You're not taking it on. You're not thinking it has something to do with anything you did wrong or anything you're not doing.
00:45:05
Speaker
You know, you understood that it was that person who was having, and you know, not like an issue, but a hard time and needed reassurance. Yeah, for sure. And i think that um think they can sometimes feel I think that can sometimes feel really hard for, like, I know um I got really super excited when there was a positive pregnancy test. And, you know, I got really super excited when it was like, okay, anatomy scan, have you started, you know, decorating a nursery?
00:45:32
Speaker
And I remember she was like, no, but um've I've decorated a nursery before. And then there wasn't anything So, you know, I have it. And I remember there was this part of me that was so sad of, you know, initially of like, oh, but I want to celebrate this with you. And then it was, i can understand why I can understand why you wouldn't. And then and then i it was so great because ah my, you know, my coordinator, she was over here celebrating with me.
00:45:55
Speaker
And so I was able to kind of get that from her, which was really nice. I mean, think about how that could have shifted in so many ways. Like, so you were able to, you know, you said something that was for her maybe triggering or, you know, just felt like I don't want to know the updates, right?
00:46:11
Speaker
you felt a little sad about it, but it's not like you sat there and said, great, now she's going to hate me the rest of the surrogacy because, right? And then you also even found a way to get what you needed, but from someone else, right? As opposed to internalizing the whole thing, not asking for what you need from someone else.
00:46:28
Speaker
Now thinking, you know, you did something horrible, letting that be like a rift between the relationship, right? Because now, fine, well, I guess I won't give her any updates, right? Which is not necessarily what she said.
00:46:40
Speaker
So it's just kind of like, again, i think what happens happens is people will internalize, you know, the other person's behavior and think it has something to do with them. And if they can step outside of that or have someone help them step outside of that.
00:46:56
Speaker
to see you know the nuance of the situation and that nobody's saying anything about them or what they're doing you know i think it's super helpful um and i think so i think ah like ah you know gestational carriers can use a lot of reassurance in that sense because they don't always understand what the other people have been through or you know why they're not celebrating as much or yeah all those things Yeah, for sure.
00:47:21
Speaker
i will make a caveat, a little asterisk. um my My last journey was was in 2020. So there was a pretty obvious, um you know, anxiety-ridden situation happening. And so there was, you know, a lot of, a very obvious, I will be communicating with you lots.
00:47:40
Speaker
Right, right. but you yeah But yes, to to your point, ultimately, yeah, I was able to, i think i think there's a really great point you made. It was recognizing I'm not, I wasn't getting what I thought from Intended Mom and being able to find a way to get it in a different place.
00:48:02
Speaker
And I feel like that's just great advice just across the board, but I think also in that surrogate IP relationship and figuring out, you know, okay, it didn't go this way and not totally shutting it down, but pivoting.
00:48:17
Speaker
Exactly. Right. And really in circus, you have to pivot all the time, right? Oh oh yeah. In the infertility world, you're pivoting all the time. So yeah, for sure, for sure.
00:48:28
Speaker
Well, um is there any, what would be just, if you could give your top advice for any woman who's starting the path of surrogacy or for intended parents who are about to build their family in this way, what sort of advice would you want to give them just in that day one?
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, for the gestational carrier, don't take it personal. um And then for the IPs, I think to know your style so that you get the right match ahead of time.
00:49:03
Speaker
Really know what you want. Don't just, yeah, I want to be friends. i want good communication. What does good communication mean?
00:49:12
Speaker
you know how How are you when your boss says, hey, I wanna talk? Are you like, okay, great, you know, I'm available Tuesday, you know, at this time and this time. Or are you, um my God, what do they want? i need to call them.
00:49:28
Speaker
ah You know, right. So like what are, What are you like? do Would it have been helpful if the boss said to you, hey, I wanna talk, it's about blah, blah, blah. And you know you really needed that.
00:49:40
Speaker
Now you know a little bit about your style. So if the you know gestational carrier is saying, the doctor needs to call me later, why does the doctor need to call you later? What's going on? you know Why did you not schedule the appointment when you were supposed to it for Tuesday? you know Why did you move it to win tim Monday? So explain, so say, oh, I know that we had said I was gonna do Tuesday, but you know my husband couldn't take off, so I'm doing it Monday.
00:50:04
Speaker
Right. You know, so some people need that. Some people don't. And it seems like such a small thing when I'm saying, right, it's like such a small nuance. And it it is like maybe one of those times doesn't make a difference. But 10 of those times, right, it adds up and it starts to erode the relationship without you even seeing it. It's so subtle.
00:50:22
Speaker
and Yes. No, I think that's huge right there. Because, yeah, it can feel easy to sweep a little, ah ah like you said, that nuanced thing and just kind of let it go.
00:50:37
Speaker
yeah, over time, it builds up. It builds up. It builds up. You might even know you're having this resentment. You don't notice. Remember that that that first example right now, what I just said, is like they she she was supposed to schedule for Tuesday, but she scheduled it for Monday, right? Uh-huh.
00:50:51
Speaker
She says, oh, it's scheduled for Monday at 3 p.m. And now the intended parent doesn't is like, OK, but is like circling in their mind about like why, but doesn't want to be invasive at the same time.
00:51:04
Speaker
Right. So like, OK, it's. they figure it out, it's fine. like Nobody says anything, she gets over it, they have the appointment, it's all fine. But now there's, again, like there's now this, like already this like unease about you know what things mean. So now the next time something gets shifted, again, that question now is a little bit heavier, because again, why was it shifted, right?
00:51:27
Speaker
So again, these just these little things, but she just said, oh, okay, no problem. you know I'm just curious, why was it changed? Oh, the doctor's actually not gonna be in that day. done.
00:51:38
Speaker
Great. Great. Yes. The simple explanation was enough to not let you spiral and then proceed to make a huge massive story. And then yes. And carry on to that.
00:51:49
Speaker
I love that imagery of making the unanswered. It just feels heavier and heavier. And then all of a sudden it's, it's too much. yeah no that that Amazing.
Personal Routines and Mental Health
00:52:01
Speaker
Well, I really, again, um really, really just appreciate your time, Rachel. My last question for you, and it's a fun one. um For anyone who knows me, they know that um I am never without a cup of coffee in my hand.
00:52:15
Speaker
Coffee and I have a bit of a codependent relationship. um And so I always love to ask the question, what filled your cup today? Literally or figuratively, what has been the thing that has filled your cup? Hmm.
00:52:29
Speaker
Today? so early in the morning already. What's closed my cup? Okay, I... get you yesterday. Okay, right. No, this morning what filled my cup is um I work out very early in the morning.
00:52:42
Speaker
And so oh good for you i have like one of those SoulCycle bikes. I took a SoulCycle class and a really great song came on that filled my cup because I was actually like vocally like singing and I don't really do that often when I'm on it because I'm just like in my zone.
00:52:55
Speaker
But I was like, yeah, bring that song on. What was the song? Oh, it's so embarrassing. It was like by Celine Dion. Yes! No, we love a Celine moment.
00:53:06
Speaker
Yeah, it was like, I'm alive. I'm like, wow, I love this song. I am alive. Yes. Oh, no. Celine will. Celine is timeless. she's i She to all of us. I mean, but some people don't like her but i' like, gosh, when she sings, I'm just like, oh, this is the best.
00:53:20
Speaker
It fills you. I mean, she has a presence. yeah So that filled my cup this morning. I love that. No, that's, that's amazing. Well, um, again, thank you so much for doing this. And for anyone just wants to hear more from you, how would they get on your mailing list?
Follow Rachel Goldberg's Work
00:53:36
Speaker
Um, so if you go to rachelgoldbergtherapy.com or my Instagram is rachelgoldbergtherapy. So pretty easy. Uh, you can find lots of ways to see my blogs, things I write, uh, follow me, you know, um, yeah, all of that. thats Reach out to me. I'm always open to, um, you know, talking to anyone.
00:53:54
Speaker
Yeah, that is so perfect. And we will have all of that in our show notes as well. So thank you again, Rachel. Super appreciate it. And um yeah, this has been fantastic. Thank you.