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00:00:01
Episode 57 - CUTTING THROUGH THE BULLSHIT (w/ Vic Tesolin)
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Many of us have been told things about woodworking – or any craft – that simply aren’t true. Why are so many myths perpetuated across so many fields? What does it say about us as humans, that we believe these things and repeat them? Today, with the help of our most experienced, authentic, and amazing friend and colleague, Vic Tesolin, we dig deep into some of the biggest myths in our field, why people believe them, and how we can emerge with a healthy sense of skepticism.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467)
Vic is writing a new book all about this topic! Keep an eye out on his website https://victesolinwoodworks.com/ and his instagram https://www.instagram.com/vic_tesolin_woodworks/
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Transcript
00:00:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The glowing rocks experiment. So a professor decided to tell two groups of students about these amazing glowing rocks, okay?
00:00:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The first group, he told about the rocks and they glow naturally without any kind of stimulation. He told them about the rocks and said, we have absolutely no idea how they work.
00:00:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then later when the students were polled after the fact, and asked, do do they understand how the rocks work? The students were like, no, we have no idea how they work. A second group of students, the professor said, we've got these glowing rocks. It's fabulous, it's phenomenal. And we know exactly how they work. Scientists have figured it all out.
00:00:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then in the exit interview, the students who didn't even hear how the rocks worked reported that they claimed to better understand how they fluoresced, how the rocks gave off light magically.
00:01:04
It's all bullshit
you
00:01:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what's key is that neither of these groups realized that the entire story was fabricated. There are no glowing rocks and we have no idea how they work.
00:01:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the fact that the two groups gave different types of answers, knowing more or knowing less about how it worked, shows that merely knowing that knowledge is available in the community makes people feel knowledgeable, be it true or completely false.
00:01:37
Vic
Whoa.
00:01:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, here we go again. This one's going to be fast and loose because it was Eric's idea.
00:01:55
It's all bullshit
Buckle up, cowboy. Listen, I have good ideas sometimes.
00:01:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm warning you up front. This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast all about art, design, philosophy, the creative side of what we do and why we do it.
00:02:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And my boy is across from me on the screen, Eric Curtis.
00:02:19
It's all bullshit
Como estas, motherfuckers?
00:02:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fine furniture maker and content creator. And today we have a beloved guest to the woodworking community. I think it's safe to say that. Woodworker, mentor, writer, podcaster, and all around great guy, Vic Teslin. Vic, welcome to the show.
00:02:41
Vic
What is going on?
00:02:42
It's all bullshit
And maybe you left out perhaps the best damn mustache in the woodworking game.
00:02:47
Vic
It's getting there boys.
00:02:48
It's all bullshit
It's coming up.
00:02:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah i
00:02:49
Vic
It's getting there.
00:02:49
It's all bullshit
it's kind That's a winter stache right there.
00:02:51
Vic
That is. Yep.
00:02:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'd say it's been there for quite some time. ah Amazing. So today's show, if you couldn't tell from the the cold open, is about, well, bullshit.
00:03:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Woodworking is bullshit. So we're going to talk about what are some commonly held myths in the woodworking community. And of course I have to bring some psychology research into why the hell do we believe these myths at all?
00:03:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What is it about humans? Why are we predisposed to believing this shit?
00:03:25
It's all bullshit
What episode are we going to dive into the psychology of you being super anxious about not having all of the structure and all of the information before we hit record?
00:03:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, you're the worst.
00:03:34
It's all bullshit
and
00:03:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You are the worst. For those that don't know, occasionally I let Eric plan a show. And what that means is Eric basically texts me
00:03:42
It's all bullshit
You, I just, hold on, hold on. hold up The framing of the power dynamic of occasionally I allow Eric to keep the pitch a show is perfect.
00:03:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. But yes, because we've tried your fucking experiment.
00:03:51
It's all bullshit
It's perfect.
00:03:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you remember that the show? I don't know what episode it was. Episode 11 where it's like Eric said, let's just wing it.
00:04:01
It's all bullshit
Oh, yeah, that one that one was a disaster. ah Barstool Confessions is a wing in an episode.
00:04:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair touche.
00:04:08
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh.
00:04:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I, I, I accept your point.
00:04:10
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh. Any Hoosiers, we don't have to bicker in front of the kids.
00:04:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh,
00:04:14
It's all bullshit
Let's talk about Bic. So, a couple of things.
00:04:17
Vic
ah
00:04:20
It's all bullshit
A couple of, what was it, a couple of months ago, you put out an Instagram story about writing a potential book called Woodworking Bullshit.
00:04:26
Vic
Yep. Yes.
00:04:28
It's all bullshit
And immediately, Paul and I texted each other and we were like, we got to get Vic on the show. Obviously, that's ah that's ah that's a natural crossover.
00:04:34
Vic
All right.
00:04:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is true.
00:04:36
It's all bullshit
But I want to go back a few years and start at the beginning. The first time I met you was i think the year was 2010. I could be wrong. um And you were working for Veritas at the time and doing the woodworking shows.
00:04:53
It's all bullshit
And I think it was the one in New England.
00:04:54
Vic
Yes.
00:04:57
It's all bullshit
And I was just a wee lad um coming in. Literally, I think that was the first woodworking event I ever went to. It was like I was a boy with a dream and came up came up to the Veritas booth. And I talked to you for, i don't know, maybe 20, 30 minutes and not about...
00:05:16
It's all bullshit
Veritas. Like I distinctly remember being like, how do I make this into a career? And you were kind enough to sit down and and have a 20 or 30 minute conversation with me. And then at the end of that,
00:05:30
It's all bullshit
gave me your email. I emailed you after the show and you emailed me a handful of resources to to do further research into one of which was CFC. And I think that is how I discovered the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship. So I say that.
00:05:46
It's all bullshit
Because I just want to tell you up front that as my career has grown and people look to me sometimes for advice as to how to make this into our career, which is a terrible decision to do.
00:05:59
It's all bullshit
Don't ask me that question because I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
00:06:02
Vic
Don't do it.
00:06:02
It's all bullshit
um I I do have to be honest and. like you are kind of the archetype that I hope that I can be for people of like somebody who has the ability, the humanity, the kindness to give their time and resources ah to direct younger folk into the field.
00:06:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:06:25
It's all bullshit
So I wouldn't be here recording this podcast with this clown if it wasn't for you having that conversation with me, whatever, 15, 16 years ago. So thank you for doing that, buddy. That really does mean a lot.
00:06:36
Vic
Yeah, I can see the hate mail coming in now. um So it's your fault.
00:06:42
It's all bullshit
It is.
00:06:42
Vic
um Well, I thank you for saying that. That's that's very kind of you. And again, i've just I've always just wanted to make woodworking accessible. I've always enjoyed it. found it to be helpful in so many different ways.
00:06:56
Vic
Not just a matter of getting a piece of furniture built and being happy with it, but you know all of the things that we experience as we as we design and we build and we do things like that. There's a lot of there's a lot of benefit to that. So I just want everybody to be able to do that.
00:07:11
It's all bullshit
So tell me about how you got into it, because you you were in the armed forces, correct?
00:07:17
Vic
I was, yeah. started out as a hobby. i For some reason, when my daughter was set to be born, I had this crazy need to make something for her.
00:07:28
Vic
And I don't know if it was like a form of nesting or something.
00:07:29
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:07:31
Vic
I don't know.
00:07:32
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:07:32
Vic
But I joined a wood hobby club on base, which was $25 a year. And I got access to all the machines. I didn't know what the heck I was doing with any of them.
00:07:42
It's all bullshit
what What year is this? what what Give me a time frame.
00:07:45
Vic
99. Yeah.
00:07:46
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:07:47
Vic
Yeah.
00:07:47
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:07:47
Vic
yeah So, um, I didn't know what I was doing. i sort of had been around woodworking in a sense in that, like my dad and, and most of his family were in the trades.
00:07:59
Vic
And so like, I was, you know, I knew that you could make things with these.
00:08:04
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:08:04
Vic
Um, but then, um, I just, I joined that hobby club. I bought a copy of Wood Magazine and it had a bedside table with a drawer in it.
00:08:19
Vic
and And I made it. And you could only open the drawer half the time of the year because i hadn't learned about wood movement yet.
00:08:26
It's all bullshit
ah
00:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh. No.
00:08:30
Vic
So in the summertime, my daughter couldn't get into the drawer. um
00:08:33
It's all bullshit
okay
00:08:34
Vic
Anyway, she wouldn't let me throw it out because I was just mortified by it.
00:08:38
Vic
But yeah, that's where it started. ah Yeah.
00:08:38
It's all bullshit
Have you fixed the drawer since?
00:08:40
It's all bullshit
but
00:08:41
Vic
It was the like, we're talking Roman OG, like sides, like, like,
00:08:45
It's all bullshit
Oh, yeah. Why is it? Why is that the profile that everybody uses first?
00:08:51
Vic
because it's more complicated than a cove or roundover.
00:08:53
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:08:54
Vic
It's like both. Yeah.
00:08:57
It's all bullshit
Okay. Okay. All right. So 99, 2000, you make a bedside table.
00:09:03
Vic
Yep.
00:09:03
It's all bullshit
Um, at that moment, you're still in the army at that point.
00:09:06
Vic
Yep. Still in the army.
00:09:06
It's all bullshit
It was the army. Yeah.
00:09:08
Vic
Yep.
00:09:08
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:09:08
Vic
And then I busted up my shoulder pretty badly. I used to play rugby for the army. Um, and I got, uh, my shoulder completely destroyed, had to have surgery and it never sort of got back to it's, I mean, it's fine for quote unquote civilian life, but in the military, the rigors, the physical rigors were just too much for it.
00:09:12
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:09:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow.
00:09:27
Vic
So
00:09:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
did it How did you destroy it
00:09:30
Vic
um I just I was being stubborn a back had the ball and I wasn't letting him get by me and I refused to let go of him and he refused to stop running so and it just popped my shoulder right out.
00:09:36
It's all bullshit
ah
00:09:42
It's all bullshit
Oh, man.
00:09:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, so you tore a bunch of ligaments and stuff.
00:09:44
Vic
Yep.
00:09:45
Vic
Oh yeah yeah they had to like cut everything shorter and reattach everything and oh yeah yeah it's awesome.
00:09:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh God. Oh no.
00:09:50
It's all bullshit
Wow.
00:09:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh no.
00:09:52
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:09:53
Vic
It was a gooder. and then i dad And then I had a couple more dislocations after that one skiing because now it's like, you know, like that ah Mel Gibson movie, you you know, you sneeze and it pops out and you just ram into a wall and fix it.
00:10:00
It's all bullshit
ah Sure.
00:10:04
It's all bullshit
like but what what What movie is that?
00:10:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does it still, does it still?
00:10:08
Vic
I don't know. There was some movie where he like would reset his shoulder like by himself and it was.
00:10:13
It's all bullshit
ah
00:10:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, what was that movie?
00:10:15
Vic
Yeah, I can't remember either. It's.
00:10:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He'd slam it against the wall, right?
00:10:18
Vic
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like it there was a franchise of movies or something where he was like a cop or something or...
00:10:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:10:24
Vic
I don't know.
00:10:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I forget. But I actually, Vic, I dislocated my shoulder as well, except I was drunk and on a slip and slide, so...
00:10:25
Vic
I don't know.
00:10:33
Vic
That's a much better story.
00:10:34
It's all bullshit
Same difference.
00:10:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so I decided it'd be a good idea at our our yearly block party.
00:10:36
It's all bullshit
difference.
00:10:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Number one, of course, I was drunk. Number two, there was a giant slip and slide. Number three, I was like, my daughter, let's go together. And so I pick her little peanut up in my arm and she's there.
00:10:49
Vic
Yep.
00:10:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's only like five. And we're like, let's do this.
00:10:51
Vic
Right.
00:10:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we go down to slip inside and we we hit the we hit the bottom of the slide with such force that her body weight wrenched my shoulder out of socket.
00:11:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:11:05
Vic
Oh my gosh.
00:11:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, and like tore my shoulder up. That was great.
00:11:08
Vic
Shit.
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was great. Yeah.
00:11:10
Vic
Wow.
00:11:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The doctor's like, how'd you do this? And I was like, i don't remember.
00:11:10
It's all bullshit
That was strong.
00:11:12
It's all bullshit
you know
00:11:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:11:16
Vic
That's awesome.
00:11:16
It's all bullshit
All right. All right. So you busted up your shoulder um and got out of active duty at that point.
00:11:19
Vic
Yeah.
00:11:23
It's all bullshit
OK.
00:11:23
Vic
Yeah. So I was, I was, uh, medically released. Um, and so that, uh, my long-term disability company had money aside for retraining and i had to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up.
00:11:35
Vic
And so, um,
00:11:36
It's all bullshit
And you were like, dope. I made a table that kind of works half the year one. So I'm going to do that professionally now. That's
00:11:41
Vic
that's it. That was my, that was my cunning plan.
00:11:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Sounds about like every woodworker.
00:11:44
It's all bullshit
a, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:45
Vic
Yeah. There was no Reddit page for me to go to and read like, oh, that's a dumb idea.
00:11:46
It's all bullshit
All right. ah Okay. So how did you get from that idea to, um, representing Veritas or working for Veritas with Veritas?
00:12:01
Vic
Yeah. Yeah. I worked for them. Yeah.
00:12:02
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:12:02
Vic
Um, for 10 years.
00:12:03
It's all bullshit
Uh,
00:12:03
Vic
Yep.
00:12:04
It's all bullshit
Okay, so how did you how did you get from that dream to being a company man?
00:12:04
Vic
So
00:12:08
Vic
Well, what I did was, is I, I, um, I went to a school at Rosewood studio, which is a private school, up here. Um, and because I didn't want to go to college cause I had no interest in doing like math and English and all that other stuff. I just wanted to be completely immersed in, in furniture making.
00:12:25
Vic
So that's what I did. did that for nine months. Um, basically a amazing opportunities. Um, teachers would cycle through in there, Garrett Hack, uh, Adrian Ferrazuti, Michael Fortune, like just all of these guys would come through and teach and I'd, you know, take little bits and pieces from everybody.
00:12:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or
00:12:45
Vic
Um, and then, um And then Rosewood changed hands. The company actually went out of business for for a second.
00:12:56
Vic
And then one of the teachers bought it.
00:12:57
It's all bullshit
Oh, interesting.
00:12:59
Vic
and then And in fact, I was working at his shop. We had a deal where like I would work for him for eight hours ah a week. And then the rest of the time, i could just... work.
00:13:10
Vic
I could just build stuff, which was amazing because I didn't have a shop.
00:13:10
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:13:13
Vic
I didn't have anything. And so, and then when he bought the school, he said, listen, I'd love for you to come and be the resident craftsman, which is a translation for change the joiner knives, empty the dust collector, you know, get coffee.
00:13:22
It's all bullshit
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. The technician, if we're going to be professional, the shop bitch, if we're not.
00:13:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That sucks.
00:13:30
It's all bullshit
like we ah We've all done it.
00:13:30
Vic
Yeah, right.
00:13:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that sucks.
00:13:31
It's all bullshit
We've all played that role.
00:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:13:32
Vic
We've all been there.
00:13:32
It's all bullshit
Yep.
00:13:33
Vic
Yeah. So anyway, so I did that. And then one day ah ah photographer came into the studio looking for somebody to put boards through a thickness planer um and they needed it for a for it was Canadian Woodworking magazine.
00:13:51
Vic
And so they had an article and so they shot the they, you know, did the shoot. I was sending boards through and then one photo ended up becoming the cover.
00:14:02
Vic
And and so then i Yeah.
00:14:05
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:14:05
Vic
So then.
00:14:06
It's all bullshit
I didn't I didn't see model being the the avenue into it, man.
00:14:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's his good looks.
00:14:09
Vic
Yeah, yeah, no, it it's models a loose term.
00:14:10
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Just that raw sexuality. Hmm.
00:14:14
Vic
It's a very, very loose term.
00:14:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:14:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:14:18
Vic
But yeah, so then um I started writing, I started writing for a Canadian Woodworking magazine. And then a year after that, I ended up being their editor for 14 months.
00:14:30
Vic
And then that's when, um, after a while, like what I've learned about myself is that like, if I have to like run something like that big, like a magazine, there's a lot of moving parts.
00:14:41
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:14:42
Vic
There's a lot of stress there's, ah and I just, I don't deal well with it. And, um, and I'm yeah.
00:14:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:14:47
Vic
And I'm not the best.
00:14:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i would, I actually, that's weird, Vic, because I was going to predict you actually did do well with stress, knowing your personality.
00:14:53
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:14:53
Vic
Well, I, yeah, well, I mean, I do okay with it, but I don't like it.
00:14:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:14:59
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:14:59
Vic
And so I guess that's the difference. I'm okay at it, but I don't like it.
00:15:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:15:03
Vic
And I'm also not a great um employee because i I think my ideas are fantastic.
00:15:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:15:11
It's all bullshit
ah
00:15:12
Vic
um And if you don't think so, we got a problem.
00:15:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Oh my God.
00:15:15
Vic
So yeah, yeah, it's wild.
00:15:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
00:15:18
Vic
So anyway, but so I did that for a bit and then I ended up working at Lee Valley and Veritas. So...
00:15:27
It's all bullshit
and And you were there for 10 years, you said.
00:15:28
Vic
I was there for 10 years. So yeah, largely what I did was, is i i mean, my official title was woodworking advisor. And so basically i would train staff. I would travel to all the different parts of the globe that Veritas was distributed at that point, it was like 21 different countries.
00:15:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:15:47
Vic
And so I would teach, you know, I would go to England and teach the guys at Axminster how to use our tools. And I would go to
00:15:52
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:15:54
Vic
South Korea and I would go to Australia and Germany and all those places and do all of that fun stuff. So, yeah, it was really cool.
00:16:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:16:02
Vic
And I mean, and when I wasn't traveling, I would hang my hat in the R&D department at Veritas, which is a very cool place to be. At least it was back then. um And, you know, we had all the designers and engineers and, you know, like it was just it was about as nerdy as you could get, like as far as hand tools and stuff goes, like you could really like, cause you have like an engineer who's been like manufacturing all of these things for years and you have designers who, you know, had been there since Mr.
00:16:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:16:34
Vic
Lee was there. um and so like these guys are like the pros, right? They're like, these are the people that, right.
00:16:41
It's all bullshit
Those are the guys with stories.
00:16:43
Vic
And so, and and then I'm just the woodworker.
00:16:43
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:16:45
Vic
So I just, you know, stop them from putting lasers on things. Cause You know, when you leave engineers on their own, they'll do that. Right.
00:16:52
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah, that tracks that tracks.
00:16:52
Vic
So yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, nope, doesn't need a laser.
00:16:55
It's all bullshit
So, OK, so you were there for a decade and now you're at fine woodworking.
00:16:59
Vic
Yep.
00:17:00
It's all bullshit
Was that the next step?
00:17:02
Vic
Uh, no, well, I'm not a fine woodworking necessarily.
00:17:02
It's all bullshit
No, you're not at fine woodworking.
00:17:06
Vic
I mean, I, I, I co-host their podcast once in a while.
00:17:09
It's all bullshit
Hmm, OK.
00:17:10
Vic
Um, just when they want, um, you know, their, uh, can con a little bit of Canadian content, you know, so can con.
00:17:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cancom?
00:17:19
Vic
Yeah.
00:17:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Get out of here with that.
00:17:20
Vic
Yeah. what That's what we call it up here. When like a radio station has to play like a certain percentage of Canadian music.
00:17:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god.
00:17:27
It's all bullshit
Well, there's, i mean, there is a certain um ah jovialness, if you will, to just like the boot, you know, as soon as you hit that, the long ooh, then it's like, oh okay, I want to listen to this pot.
00:17:35
Vic
Right. Ooh.
00:17:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Aboot.
00:17:39
It's all bullshit
It makes me feel good in my soul, you know?
00:17:40
Vic
Right. Right.
00:17:42
It's all bullshit
It's like warm soup in your stomach, you know?
00:17:42
Vic
It's like, yeah, it's like watching Fargo.
00:17:44
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:17:45
Vic
It's fantastic.
00:17:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that what we have Conrad on all the time?
00:17:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because he he he warms he he warms your loins.
00:17:49
It's all bullshit
That's why we got him on.
00:17:49
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:17:50
Vic
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:51
It's all bullshit
He'll every once in a blue moon, he'll hit in a boot by accident.
00:17:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:17:56
It's all bullshit
And I'm like, there it is.
00:17:56
Vic
By accident.
00:17:57
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:58
Vic
There it is.
00:17:58
It's all bullshit
yeah
00:17:58
Vic
Yeah. And he's got great hair. I mean, like, how do you beat that?
00:18:00
It's all bullshit
Oh, I mean, hes he's a goddamn rock star of the the woodworking world.
00:18:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, that goes without saying.
00:18:02
Vic
Like, I know. Right. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:05
It's all bullshit
um Well, so, Vic, part of the reason I wanted to hear that story is because I think when people develop, and I was certainly among these folks, when you develop the idea that you want to be a professional woodworker, um I think we have a very narrow-minded path of what that looks like. And your path, it...
00:18:30
It's all bullshit
I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I mean it in the most complimentary way because I feel like you had to be very clever to do this. But it's like when you think of like the music industry, there are the musicians and then there are the people who work in the industry and like make the industry happen.
00:18:43
Vic
Right. right
00:18:45
It's all bullshit
And your path sounds more like that ladder path where you're like, I'm going to be in the woodworking industry. And you know what? You know what that does? A, that provides you a paycheck, that provides you benefits and paid time off.
00:18:58
It's all bullshit
And that like it's it's ah stability in that it is a way
00:18:58
Vic
right
00:19:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Stability.
00:19:04
It's all bullshit
to be involved in the thing that you wanted to do without necessarily taking on the risk of like doing the dumb thing that I did, which is banging your head against the wall until you figure out how to be self-employed and not, you know, impoverished and malnourished.
00:19:18
Vic
Yeah.
00:19:20
It's all bullshit
And I think there's a lot of value in that story.
00:19:23
Vic
Sure. Yeah. Like, I mean, um it's, it's, it's not a, it's not unknown that, you know, making a living as a furniture maker is a very difficult thing to do. And the people that are doing it are not doing it with commissions alone.
00:19:37
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
00:19:37
Vic
Um, you know, even the the best of the best teach and write and do all sorts of other things that sort of supplement their benefit there. I mean, supplement their, their income as a furniture maker.
00:19:49
Vic
Um, And so for me, it was like, well, what does that look like? um You know, and I think like, I think I spent a lot of time in the military in an educational capacity. So like I would teach new soldiers how to drive. I would teach soldiers how to do certain things. And so I kind of really enjoyed teaching. And so like when I think about the trajectory of my woodworking career,
00:20:15
Vic
it always i would always put it sort of to the test of like okay does this is this some sort of educational component to this is like and so that's why like at veritas it was great because like i was constantly teaching people how to use the tools helping them get better at it defragging problems
00:20:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Vic, what does that say about you as a person that you enjoy the process of teaching others?
00:20:41
Vic
Well, I think I was, I felt extremely fortunate at Rosewood to be, you know, sitting in the same room and listening to Michael Fortune explain his design process.
00:20:52
Vic
And like, to me, that sort of all of those opportunities that I have, it just, I feel like, like, i don't want to hang on to that. Like, I don't want to just, you know, have the had the experience. I want to like pass it on and, and help people,
00:21:06
Vic
I don't know. I just, I feel, I kind of joke sometimes that I say I'm like a woodworking Jehovah's witness where it's like, I want to like encourage and like, like I have a quota to make, like I like, or else I'm not getting to Valhalla or whatever the places that they go, but I've offended a lot of people in that one sentence.
00:21:12
It's all bullshit
but
00:21:24
It's all bullshit
I think that's the place. Yeah.
00:21:25
Vic
Yeah.
00:21:26
It's all bullshit
I think that's, yeah.
00:21:26
Vic
Valhalla, is that what it is?
00:21:27
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:21:27
Vic
Jehovah's witnesses go to Valhalla.
00:21:28
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:21:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric would know.
00:21:29
Vic
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. um So for me, it's like everything has been like, and even to this day, like I don't do anything if it doesn't pass that litmus test.
00:21:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:21:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:21:41
Vic
If it's like, if it has nothing to do with education and I mean writing, all that other kind of stuff, like it's education in one form or the other. But like, I don't do things that don't have that element to them.
00:21:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
can Can I say what we're all thinking, Eric?
00:21:57
It's all bullshit
please.
00:21:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What a fucking nice, great guy.
00:22:00
It's all bullshit
I said it at the top of the fucking episode.
00:22:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No. Like, what human are, Vic.
00:22:03
It's all bullshit
He's the nicest fucking guy in woodworking. and and here's here's the thing. like There are people who say I'm a nice guy. It's only because they don't know me well enough. There is not a single person I have ever talked to who's been like, that Vic Teslin's a real piece of shit.
00:22:18
It's all bullshit
like he see He's just genuinely a fucking nice dude.
00:22:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:22:23
Vic
Well, I appreciate that. i'm sure i'm I'm sure I could find you some that would disagree.
00:22:27
It's all bullshit
ah Sure, sure, sure.
00:22:27
Vic
um But yeah, I don't know. i just I just try to keep it real and try to be honest about things.
00:22:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's great.
00:22:34
Vic
And like, you know, when, and just, I really enjoy woodworking and I really enjoy seeing the satisfaction that other people get
00:22:34
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:22:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's great.
00:22:43
Vic
from making something or like, um, I participated in a, in a, in a class that was teaching women how to use power tools. And like this one woman was so nervous about using a miter saw.
00:22:54
Vic
And then she made that first cut. And this look of like, she's like, i have the eye of Sauron.
00:22:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
00:23:00
Vic
I like, I have the power now, you know what I mean?
00:23:04
It's all bullshit
ah
00:23:05
Vic
And it's like, yeah, yeah, you do.
00:23:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yeah ah You know, I've been teaching our favorite videographer in the community, just Justin Mabee and Morgan.
00:23:12
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
00:23:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've been teaching them how to hand cut dovetails. We've been doing sessions, like one session every three or four weeks, and they come back to my house and we cut and, you know, do...
00:23:22
Vic
Nice.
00:23:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And neither of them has done hardly any woodworking, like like hand tool woodworking, you know?
00:23:33
Vic
Right.
00:23:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They've used saw or two and, you know, tried thing. But the... that This is our third or fourth session just yesterday, and they cut hand-cut dovetails with a handsaw and chisels by themselves with no instruction, no cheat sheet, nothing.
00:23:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They walked in the shop cold with what they already knew from the previous three sessions or two sessions and did it.
00:23:58
Vic
Right.
00:23:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, sure, there's there's room for improvement, of course. I called one of Justin's... one of Justin's dovetails and abomination at which point he, he laughed and cried a little bit, but, um but just seeing the, the two of them, because they've been in the wood, you know, Justin's been in woodworking community a long time, but he's no one's it, which, which mystifies me. No one's really given him the opportunity or taken him and been like, let's do some woodworking together. And I was like, really? Like, i can't believe it. Like you've met every famous woodworker there is like, what do you mean? Like,
00:24:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And to see the satisfaction on Justin's face and Morgan's face about cutting their own dovetails was exactly like you describe with your your class with the woman who used the chop saw.
00:24:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like this feeling of personal empowerment and fulfillment.
00:24:50
Vic
Yeah.
00:24:54
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh.
00:24:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it does feel great to see that for them by proxy.
00:24:56
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh.
00:24:57
Vic
Well, I think as human beings, like we have this innate, um, desire to create,
00:24:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it makes you feel amazing.
00:25:04
Vic
You what mean? We were all artists when we were a kid, as was evidenced by our parents' refrigerators.
00:25:09
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh.
00:25:10
Vic
You know what mean? And so, like, at some point, you know, the school system beat that out of us and made us good at taking tests and all that other kind of stuff. And then we sort of lost that creative side.
00:25:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
know
00:25:22
Vic
But I mean, when people, I find that half half my battle when I'm dealing with a new student is to convince them that, that yes, they absolutely fucking can woodwork.
00:25:31
It's all bullshit
Mm. Mm-hmm.
00:25:32
Vic
And like, and the the example about dovetails is awesome because like we know, and anybody who's spent some time at the bench knows that dovetails really aren't that hard.
00:25:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:25:45
Vic
they They appear hard and, and they've sort of been venerated as this really, really, um, I don't know, heightened status, um,
00:25:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:25:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's got some mythical, some legendary status to it that only the finest of woodworkers are capable of that, right?
00:26:02
Vic
Right. Right.
00:26:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then Morgan and and Justin walk out. And at one point, look look, it's hard to get them perfect. I would agree.
00:26:12
Vic
Sure.
00:26:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a lot of technical know-how and a lot of hand muscle memory. It's fine. But they walked away, and I'm going to put words in their mouth because I recall them saying, it's not as bad as I thought.
00:26:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because just like you said, the community had built it up to some mythical, you know, Griffin unicorn like legendary status that only the finest can do.
00:26:24
Vic
Mm-hmm.
00:26:31
Vic
Yep.
00:26:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it really they said you demystified it. You just broke it into a series of steps. And I fucked up a couple one of those steps. And yeah, all right. But I know what I did and I can fix it on the next time. and you just demystify the whole process.
00:26:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they leave there with this amazing feeling of satisfaction and empowerment. I love it.
00:26:49
Vic
Yeah, the most important thing is to sort of instill this idea of being um ah being able to critique your own work and to be able to like say, oh yeah, no, I didn't cut that great here. And this is why that happened because I was crowding this all with my body a bit.
00:27:02
Vic
And, you know, so like whatever whatever happened, happens.
00:27:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:27:05
Vic
But like, as long as you can see, you know, I've done this, um how do i how do I fix it, right? As long as you've got that sort of character, then, you know, you you can sort of work it out.
00:27:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you don't let you don't let it destroy you. Like, I felt free to give them my opinion in a very, like, straight, forthcoming way.
00:27:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they didn't take it personally. It's about getting better.
00:27:32
Vic
Right.
00:27:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, it's not a character assassination. It's not like you're not a good human.
00:27:35
Vic
Right.
00:27:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, did call it an abomination, but that was just to make Justin laugh, which it did.
00:27:40
Vic
Right.
00:27:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
he fucking cracked up.
00:27:41
Vic
Which it did.
00:27:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He totally cracked up.
00:27:43
Vic
Sure. Sure.
00:27:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But, but yeah.
00:27:44
It's all bullshit
so So what you guys are saying is the the role of the teacher is to take the myth that dovetails are hard and ah call it bullshit.
00:27:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:27:54
Vic
That was an amazing segue.
00:27:55
It's all bullshit
That, friends, is what we call a segue.
00:27:57
Vic
That was beautiful.
00:27:59
It's all bullshit
So, Vic, you're writing a book about woodworking bullshit.
00:28:03
Vic
Yeah. Yes.
00:28:05
It's all bullshit
um How many myths do you have? How many how many bullshits do you have right now?
00:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
00:28:10
Vic
Over 100. No. No,
00:28:11
It's all bullshit
Over, okay, wonderful.
00:28:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Over a hundred?
00:28:12
It's all bullshit
so So if if we drop five or 10, we're not gonna ruin the book.
00:28:16
Vic
no no, no.
00:28:17
It's all bullshit
Okay, great, great, great, great.
00:28:17
Vic
No, no, no. There's going to be a lot.
00:28:18
It's all bullshit
um
00:28:19
Vic
There's chapters of like...
00:28:21
It's all bullshit
There's chapters.
00:28:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
shoot Should we go round Robin, Eric?
00:28:24
It's all bullshit
o okay.
00:28:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We take turns.
00:28:26
It's all bullshit
All right, let's go.
00:28:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's take turns.
00:28:27
It's all bullshit
So I will preface it. Are we sticking purely with woodworking bullshit? Are we doing... Okay, so I'll preface this to the audience by saying Vic is writing about woodworking.
00:28:40
It's all bullshit
We know that our audience includes other... includes other genres of creative folk so the myths that i have are just about creativity in general and paul being paul has research on you know the psychology of myths and and believing that was not buddy i love you i love you deeply in my soul you know that i'm not
00:28:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I felt like that was a shot.
00:28:59
Vic
I don't think that was a shot. I didn't.
00:29:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like that might have been a little bit of a shot.
00:29:04
Vic
I've been in the room when Curtis gives a shot and I don't think that was it.
00:29:07
It's all bullshit
That's true. That's true. I will shit.
00:29:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:29:09
It's all bullshit
ah Public shaming is a valuable tool for a teacher. That was not public shaming.
00:29:12
Vic
That's right.
00:29:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the
00:29:13
Vic
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, buddy. Okay.
00:29:14
Vic
Yeah, I can sense it pretty well.
00:29:15
It's all bullshit
All right.
00:29:16
Vic
Yeah.
00:29:16
It's all bullshit
All right.
00:29:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay.
00:29:18
It's all bullshit
Vic, lead us off. Buddy, fire one off.
00:29:21
Vic
Okay, so like, um well, anyway, to start, like we were kind of laughing a few years ago, Chris Schwartz and I were talking about how much like stupid shit there is in woodworking and what people think you have to do.
00:29:31
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:29:33
Vic
And then it's perpetuated by whatever. And and Paul will be able to help us out with that a little bit. But what... what i was trying to figure what I was trying to figure out was like, let's get a group of like these sort of myths that we've all heard before and that we've all, you know, came up with and either either believed or sort of put into practice because we thought they were true. Like, so for example...
00:29:58
Vic
Whenever I'm working with a student and we're making a tabletop and i will start taking the boards and I'll just start flipping them and start going end for end. And I'll be looking at the grain pattern and they're like, well, wait a minute, don't you have to orient the grain?
00:30:13
Vic
And I'm like, well, what do you mean? And, and they're like, well, you have to have like the cup going up on one board and then down on the other board.
00:30:19
It's all bullshit
Smiley facerowie face, face.
00:30:21
Vic
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:21
It's all bullshit
Yep, yep, yep.
00:30:21
Vic
And yeah, it's got, yeah. It's even got a name for happy face, frowny face. Um, and, um, and I, I always look at them and I'm like,
00:30:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, wait, wait, wait, Vic, explain that more for people who aren't woodworkers. Like a little bit.
00:30:33
Vic
okay. So, uh, trees, they grow and that go forward a little bit further.
00:30:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, I didn't mean, I didn't mean roll back that far.
00:30:38
It's all bullshit
This is an audio format, cowboy.
00:30:42
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:30:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but So a seed germinates in the soil.
00:30:48
It's all bullshit
when When a mommy tree and a daddy tree love each other very much.
00:30:49
Vic
Love each other very much. Yes. That's right.
00:30:58
Vic
Oh boy.
00:31:02
Vic
so
00:31:02
It's all bullshit
all right.
00:31:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:31:02
It's all bullshit
All right.
00:31:03
Vic
So, because trees, ah you know, the growth rings around, and then when you cut a board out of it, you get some of those boards are, the grain is going like this on the end grain, but if you flip the board over, now it's a smile. So it's either like a smile or a frown, right? And so it's been...
00:31:24
Vic
misrepresented that you need to make sure that those alternate so one one up one down one up one down and apparently what that's supposed to do is it's supposed to when the wood moves you see it in woodworking textbooks and it's like now you get this instead of this and i'm like i don't want either of those things
00:31:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:31:46
It's all bullshit
Either of those.
00:31:49
Vic
So what's my other choice? And the other choice is well, wood is going to move and hopefully you're using seasoned lumber. And if you're not, well, guess what? You're going to learn something, but yeah,
00:31:59
Vic
I pick my board so that I get the best possible, to my eye, the best possible visual out of that top or even if it's like the side of a box or whatever.
00:32:12
Vic
So it's like I, regardless of grain, up, down, inside of the tree, outside of the tree, nobody cares.
00:32:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Regardless of the grain orientation, up, down, up, down.
00:32:15
It's all bullshit
Yeah, nobody gives a shit about the orientation.
00:32:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:18
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:32:19
It's all bullshit
Yeah,
00:32:20
Vic
And nobody has ever... like brought that to my attention, like as a, as me being a student and a teacher saying, okay, yes, you have to do this. Like I never, ever heard that, but then all of a sudden, yeah, it is.
00:32:31
It's all bullshit
yes because it's because it's not a thing, but it is in the textbooks for some reason. So so the question becomes, where did that myth come from?
00:32:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:32:39
It's all bullshit
Like it came from somewhere, right?
00:32:39
Vic
Right. I think it's theoretical, to be quite honest. I think if wood is going to move and you're going to get cupping, and so what would you prefer?
00:32:43
It's all bullshit
Sure.
00:32:49
Vic
Would you prefer like high, low, high, low, high, low? Or would you prefer like a barrel?
00:32:53
It's all bullshit
So is this, is this a vestige of people using like, you know, 200 years ago? Um, sometimes obviously at that point, everything was air dried.
00:33:05
It's all bullshit
Sometimes people might rush or they might not know how long to, to wait for a piece of air dried timber to be properly seasoned. So it's more likely to warp at that point. And so at that point it might be a better practice.
00:33:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hard to say, Eric.
00:33:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, there's no answer to your question.
00:33:20
It's all bullshit
at Well, that's...
00:33:21
Vic
Everybody that knows is dead. So, you know, a hundred years ago, there was no air conditioning.
00:33:23
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
00:33:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:26
Vic
There was no central heating. There was no blah, blah, blah, blah. blah So then what is wood like? What's woodworking like?
00:33:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, look, it it makes sense from a logical point of view if you want the flattest overall approach, right?
00:33:40
Vic
Right.
00:33:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You don't want some huge barrel-like shape to your table. and I mean, I get it.
00:33:44
Vic
Right.
00:33:45
It's all bullshit
So is this is this another example then in engineers are going to take an unwarranted stray here?
00:33:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But...
00:33:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-oh.
00:33:50
It's all bullshit
Is this another example of engineers coming in be like, you know, in theory, it would be better if let me push my glasses back up a little bit and tell you guys how woodworks.
00:33:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Maybe. Well, there's kind Eric, this comes to this comes to our episode of Theory vs. Practice. Like, the theory says one thing and the practice says another.
00:34:03
Vic
Right.
00:34:03
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:34:06
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:34:06
Vic
So I have people tell me all the time that because I use a Tormek to sharpen my tools, that my edges aren't strong enough because I'm using a hollow grind. And I'm like, dude, we're talking about 0.03 millimeters, right? We're talking a very small amount. It's as close as flat as damn is to swearing.
00:34:27
Vic
And, but people will argue because
00:34:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Vic, Vic, when you say people, what you really mean is hobbyists. Sorry, hobbyists.
00:34:34
Vic
Yes.
00:34:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm allowed to call you out because I am one of you.
00:34:36
It's all bullshit
Oh, yeah. he He said I am one so I can say it.
00:34:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i am one of your ranks.
00:34:39
Vic
Right. Right.
00:34:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I am a hobbyist. It is the hobbyists making the most noise.
00:34:42
Vic
Right.
00:34:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is not professionals.
00:34:45
It's all bullshit
You're, you're, yeah, you're 100% correct.
00:34:45
Vic
100%. Because they have time to think about it.
00:34:47
It's all bullshit
Okay.
00:34:48
Vic
They have time to like navel gaze about it. And there's like, and when you draw a picture, And this like this is a picture of the boards, right? The wave versus the cup.
00:34:58
It's all bullshit
Yep.
00:34:59
Vic
And then same thing with a hollow bevel. Whenever you see a picture of a hollow bevel drawn, it looks like wafer thin at the end.
00:35:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's exaggerated.
00:35:07
It's all bullshit
yep ah
00:35:09
Vic
And like it's flopping around.
00:35:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right, because they have to exaggerate it to make the point. Yeah.
00:35:12
Vic
Right. And so then all of a sudden it's like, well, see, that's weak.
00:35:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:35:16
Vic
And it's like, well, but that's not what it looks like. And if you open up the if you open up the the manual for the Tormac, it actually has a full size drawing of what the hollow bevel looks like.
00:35:29
Vic
And you have to put a ruler on it to even show that there's a bit of a curve there.
00:35:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
To see the...
00:35:35
It's all bullshit
This is one of those arguments where I just, you know, I don't say this out loud, but in my head I'm saying, or, and just before you say no, just hear me out on this argument, or you can go fuck yourself.
00:35:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:35:47
It's all bullshit
Like that's, you know, like, like we got shit to do, man.
00:35:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, look, look, Eric, the the real answer to this is like, how do you know?
00:35:52
It's all bullshit
You know, I don't care.
00:35:54
Vic
ah
00:35:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How do you know you're right? Vic, how do you know it doesn't weaken it?
00:36:00
It's all bullshit
i I don't know that I'm right or wrong, but yeah.
00:36:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, the truth is the truth. Well, the truth is you have to test it scientifically. You have to have it super thin and see the fragility. You have to have it thicker, test the fragility and have data to support the conclusion.
00:36:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's actually the way to go about this.
00:36:14
It's all bullshit
And you're 1000% correct. And that is where scientists and engineers have their value in the community. What I'm saying is you are talking about people who are worried about the the strength of a piece of steel cutting a piece of wood.
00:36:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:29
It's all bullshit
It's a piece of wood. Just cut the fucking wood.
00:36:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:31
It's all bullshit
Like if it cuts, it works.
00:36:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. and yeah so well, so that's the anecdotal experience is like, it works.
00:36:32
It's all bullshit
That's all that matters.
00:36:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So shut the hell up.
00:36:38
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:36:38
Vic
Right.
00:36:38
It's all bullshit
Who cares? You do it one way.
00:36:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. All right, Eric.
00:36:40
It's all bullshit
I do it another. That's fine. We can both, we can coexist.
00:36:41
Vic
Like when I learned how to sharpen at school, we we were taught to use a six inch grinder, a six inch grinder.
00:36:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have that.
00:36:49
Vic
And then grind grind your hollow bevel and then rest your heel and then your toe onto the stone and then sharpen so you're hitting the heel and the toe only.
00:36:52
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
00:36:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:36:54
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
00:36:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep. Yep.
00:37:00
Vic
And then once you get about halfway to the center, you can regrind and it just speeds you up.
00:37:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:37:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Granted again. Yeah, totally.
00:37:05
Vic
So if I can use a six inch grind
00:37:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Totally.
00:37:11
Vic
and it's fine,
00:37:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:37:14
Vic
In A2, in O1, in high carbon steel, in whatever other stupid alloys you got, it works. And it's been working for a long time.
00:37:25
Vic
So it's like, i I mean, I know that the science supports that.
00:37:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:37:29
Vic
But then at a certain point when you start measuring in science, right, you start moving a decimal point. Now all of a sudden...
00:37:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well yeah it's a lot to do about nothing yeah
00:37:38
It's all bullshit
Uh-huh.
00:37:38
Vic
Right. And then it's like, now you're at, now you're arguing about how many angels can dance at the head of a pin and.
00:37:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah that's right i know it i've noticed it the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin i love it keep it up eric what what what do you got
00:37:44
It's all bullshit
I what the the number of just like random, like old timey isms that you have in your back pocket. So it's fucking perfect. ah All right.
00:37:55
Vic
i got it I got a million.
00:37:55
It's all bullshit
all right. Let's keep it going. um So here's one that I think we all hear regardless of our practice.
00:38:06
It's all bullshit
um And I think it's meant with good intention, but I think it's terrible advice, which is if you're good at your craft, you should go pro.
00:38:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is!
00:38:17
Vic
Hmm. No.
00:38:19
It's all bullshit
So is that, is it?
00:38:19
Vic
It's a good way to kill it.
00:38:23
Vic
It's a good way to kill your love for your craft.
00:38:25
It's all bullshit
It is, it is.
00:38:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that is
00:38:26
It's all bullshit
But, but here's why I think about this, this, and I think it's a myth because I think we all kind of hold that in the beginning. Maybe, i don't know Paul, I don't think you ever did. Correct me if I'm wrong.
00:38:37
It's all bullshit
Hold that kind of that dream. But, but I think the majority of people, and I could be wrong on this. Like once you find that thing that lights a fire in your belly, you go like, well what if I could, oh wait, what what if I didn't have to have a job and I just do this all day, you know?
00:38:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, how about this? How about you dip your toe in it like I did? Do it eight hours a day for like a week or two, you know, like when you have a vacation or something and realize that it sucks. ah
00:39:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I don't. I don't mean it sucks in a general sense, but I just mean like doing it to that level for me was immediately.
00:39:03
Vic
It's like,
00:39:06
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:39:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was immediately obvious. This is a no-fly zone. I do not enjoy eight hours, 10 hours a day. I enjoy three, two, four hours a day. And that's where we're going to keep it. So I think it's all about taste testing it. Like, why wouldn't you taste test it?
00:39:26
It's all bullshit
I think it is... um
00:39:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or maybe maybe some people need a longer taste test. Maybe they need like, oh I want to try it for a year or two years and see how it goes, right?
00:39:33
It's all bullshit
Well, I think I wonder also if it's if it's ah a little bit of a status thing, like you have your competency in your professional field and people ultimately want to be viewed as as competent.
00:39:47
It's all bullshit
Right. Like, I think that's a general idea. We want to be respected. We want to be admired. And if you have a job that you dislike and you fall in love with woodworking and you go like, maybe I could do this or again, whatever the craft is, painting, songwriting, whatever it is. And you go like, maybe I can garner some social currency through this act. And just because money is a part of our society and it's a high value part of our society, we go, if I can make money from doing this, this means I'm good.
00:40:17
It's all bullshit
And if I'm a professional, if I'm doing it full time and if I can feed my family with it, that is further proof that I'm good.
00:40:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
00:40:23
It's all bullshit
And so at some point, like you have to respect me because I'm doing the thing.
00:40:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, I see. So it's more like looking, go yeah, go ahead, Vic.
00:40:28
Vic
So two points on that, actually. So one one of the things is that, first of all, there's a large number of the population that dislike what they do for a living, right?
00:40:37
It's all bullshit
Mm hmm.
00:40:38
Vic
It's very rare to find somebody who actually enjoys what they're doing. And so anything that is remotely better than that, right, is then, oh could I do this as a living?
00:40:47
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Yeah, the grass is always greener.
00:40:50
Vic
Right, exactly.
00:40:50
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:40:51
Vic
And so, and then the other point is that, like, um,
00:40:58
Vic
Like I like um sex.
00:41:03
It's all bullshit
Wow.
00:41:04
Vic
But I do not want to be in the porn industry. because this Because as soon as you have to do that, you have to perform.
00:41:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh
00:41:09
It's all bullshit
wow
00:41:14
Vic
You have to perform well.
00:41:15
It's all bullshit
Wait, wait, wait.
00:41:16
Vic
don't.
00:41:16
It's all bullshit
Am I in the porn industry?
00:41:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
my God. This is the best pivot ever in the history of our podcast.
00:41:22
Vic
i'm I'm just saying, after a while, you'd be like, ah no, i I don't want to have sex with that person because i've just i'm I'm tired.
00:41:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't want to have sex 20 times a day.
00:41:34
Vic
I'm dehydrated.
00:41:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god, Vic.
00:41:38
It's all bullshit
is the perfect analogy. This is the perfect analogy.
00:41:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god.
00:41:40
Vic
Right?
00:41:41
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:42
Vic
but like But like once a week, couple times a week?
00:41:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is amazing.
00:41:49
It's all bullshit
This is going to be my advice now to people for the rest of my goddamn days.
00:41:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When someone comes to Eric is like, should I get into the woodworking industry as a professional, Eric's going to say...
00:41:54
Vic
Right.
00:42:01
It's all bullshit
Say, how many times a week do you want to have sex? And they're they're going to have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's not the point.
00:42:04
Vic
Right.
00:42:09
Vic
And some would say, what?
00:42:09
It's all bullshit
ah
00:42:10
Vic
Eight hours a day?
00:42:11
It's all bullshit
ah
00:42:11
Vic
Every day? That's awesome.
00:42:13
It's all bullshit
Yeah. And then to Paul's point until they go and do it.
00:42:14
Vic
Right.
00:42:16
It's all bullshit
And then by Thursday, they're like, I need all the Gatorade.
00:42:17
Vic
Right.
00:42:20
It's all bullshit
Actually, I've got no fluids left.
00:42:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
get Get off me.
00:42:22
Vic
Right.
00:42:23
It's all bullshit
ah
00:42:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and don't and Don't anyone touch me, okay?
00:42:24
Vic
Yeah. Get off me!
00:42:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How about that?
00:42:29
It's all bullshit
All right. So so if you're good in the sack, you don't necessarily have to go pro. That's what we've learned.
00:42:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:34
It's all bullshit
ah paul Paul, go for it, cowboy.
00:42:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, mine is woodworking related, but it it speaks to a larger issue of sales and marketing that really gets under my skin. That modern glues are far superior to hide glue, and that modern finishes are way better than shellac.
00:42:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, that kind of... Bull fucking shit.
00:42:52
Vic
Both of those are in the book.
00:42:54
It's all bullshit
Mmm.
00:42:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the reason it really irritates the shit out of me is because it's all based on marketing and money and sales. These companies who sell modern glues and modern finishes are trying to convince you to buy their shit that, oh the old stuff is no good. The stuff that has worked for centuries, that is in every...
00:43:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
furniture piece that all of you woodworkers go to museums and you, Ooh, and I get your little boners about, you know, looking at the Met or whatever. And you're like, Oh my God, I could never make that. If I made that, the and and I would die. And see, yeah, yeah guess what? It's hide, flu and shellac.
00:43:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's exactly. And, and it, You know it can be repaired. It's non-toxic. It can be reversed. Both of them, by the way, are reversible without damage to the piece. And yet we're buying these plastic fucking alternatives. Oh, polyurethanes. Oh, yeah, it's great. And all these vinyl glues that are going to you know leave plastic, you know use petroleum as as a ah Sorry.
00:43:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just like i get so twisted up.
00:43:56
It's all bullshit
ah
00:43:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like we have renewable resources. Both of these come from animals. High glue comes from the skin of cows. Shellac comes from the lac beetle. They give great results. They're infinitely flexible.
00:44:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have centuries of data showing how good they are. And yet we pivot to modern glues and modern finishes. Not that there's no place for them. I'm not speaking unequivocally.
00:44:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There is a time and a place for things. I understand innovation and I'm not anti-innovation, but I do occasionally use a quick and thick when I, you know, type on quick and thick, or I occasionally will use polyurethane for like a tabletop.
00:44:26
It's all bullshit
and And you do use type on one.
00:44:30
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Sure.
00:44:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's going to see a ton of water and I don't want to have to worry about water ring. So yes, But on the whole, what drives me batty about it is new woodworkers don't know this because the stupid companies are yelling through these megaphones about what you should use.
00:44:47
Vic
It's true.
00:44:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And no one is making a ton of money off shellac and hide glue because they're not sponsored by any one company. They're just part of the ecosystem now.
00:45:03
It's all bullshit
Well, so I, I, I agree with you on the whole it's in, that's, that's not limited to the woodworking field. That's whatever field you're in. There's going to be something new coming along. They're going to go, well, this paint is better than oil paint because you don't have to mix, you know, terpenes in, or you don't have to mix the pigment in way. And like the, everything has their place, right? We don't have to be, uh, uh, like full on traditionalists or, or anything like that. But yeah,
00:45:28
It's all bullshit
Um, that, that marketing campaign does exist with older materials. It just depends on who, like I've, I've been seeing this fish glue now on the, on the interwebs, which like that they're going to hit all the same marketing points that you just hit.
00:45:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:45:47
It's all bullshit
You know, they're going to say it's biodegradable.
00:45:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, good.
00:45:48
It's all bullshit
It's reversible made from, from the skin of fish.
00:45:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good. At least good. Let's let's use it.
00:45:54
Vic
Is it the skin of fish that they make it from?
00:45:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
At least it's, I don't know.
00:45:57
It's all bullshit
I think so. It's all made from from skins, yeah?
00:45:59
Vic
Is it?
00:45:59
It's all bullshit
I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure it's the skin of fish.
00:46:00
Vic
don't know.
00:46:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wasn't fish glue used for like parquetry or marquetry or something specific.
00:46:06
It's all bullshit
Oh, I don't know. We're deep in the nerd hole now.
00:46:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyway, anyway, go on, go on.
00:46:11
It's all bullshit
That's all. That's all I got. um
00:46:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:46:13
It's all bullshit
You know, use shellac. But but the the contemporary things do have their place. Again, like shellac is a what it's a wonderful finish.
00:46:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I did say that.
00:46:22
It's all bullshit
it's It's all of the things you just said, and it looks brilliant. The downside to it is it doesn't stand up well to water or alcohol, which are like the two things that everybody puts on a table, you know?
00:46:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's why I don't finish tabletops with it where i eat.
00:46:34
It's all bullshit
ah Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.
00:46:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't, ah but i everything else gets locked.
00:46:36
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:46:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So I have a question for you, Vic.
00:46:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
why What is it about the way humans think that makes us so susceptible to believing things that are not necessarily true?
00:46:53
Vic
I think we put stock in what what people we respect think. So I was told by somebody that I respected quite deeply that you should never use WD-40 in a woodworking shop because it, if it gets onto wood, it can cause problems with finish absorption.
00:47:01
It's all bullshit
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:47:13
Vic
So I, and I was, that's what I was told. And then I, and so this is the classic example. And then Christopher Schwarz wrote a blog post a number of years ago about using WD-40 for something or whatever.
00:47:25
Vic
And I, and like right away, I was like, well, you can't do that.
00:47:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You can't do that.
00:47:30
Vic
Because so-and-so said no. and then And then I sort of thought about it and I'm like, well, I'm going to have him. I'm I sprayed board of...
00:47:41
Vic
i'm going to test this right
00:47:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I got him right where I want him.
00:47:43
Vic
yeah
00:47:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:47:44
It's all bullshit
but
00:47:45
Vic
and so and so i sprayed a board of cherry with some WD-40 and then i put a couple of coats of shellac on it and then I put a couple of coats of polyurethane over that and then I use the technique that the industry uses where they like slice an X into the finish with a knife and then you try to like peel a corner up like I was I researched
00:48:06
It's all bullshit
Oh, I didn't know that was a technique for testing finish adhesion.
00:48:10
Vic
yeah to see if it like sticks and it's stuck
00:48:11
It's all bullshit
Interesting. Yeah.
00:48:17
It's all bullshit
Son of a bitch.
00:48:17
Vic
And so here I am, like I was ready to like, I was going to rage type. It was going to be amazing.
00:48:25
It's all bullshit
You're going to Yelp review his article.
00:48:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was going to be amazing.
00:48:27
Vic
Right.
00:48:27
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:48:27
Vic
Yeah.
00:48:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:29
Vic
I got you now, Christopher Schwarz.
00:48:30
It's all bullshit
ah
00:48:32
Vic
No. Turns out it doesn't matter. But, and so for five years, I didn't use one of the most amazing things in a can in the shop because
00:48:45
It's all bullshit
Because you were told not to.
00:48:47
Vic
Cause I was told that it would wreck the, wreck the board.
00:48:50
It's all bullshit
Well, you know what's interesting? like
00:48:55
It's all bullshit
I've heard people complain, and I feel like maybe we've complained on this podcast to some extent, that like... you know, kids, kids don't listen to people who know better, right? Like if only, if only you listened to the wisdom of the elders, right?
00:49:08
Vic
Right.
00:49:08
It's all bullshit
And then they're like, then, then you could, history wouldn't repeat itself, yada, yada, all the things.
00:49:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:49:14
It's all bullshit
But like, this is, this is what happens when you listen to the wisdom of the elders, those wisdoms, those wisdoms.
00:49:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric.
00:49:20
It's all bullshit
Well, but, but I'm not, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to say that as a blanket statement, don't learn from other people.
00:49:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no.
00:49:25
It's all bullshit
What I'm saying is, that that wisdom fractures and becomes smaller and smaller and becomes anecdotal.
00:49:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:49:31
It's all bullshit
And so there's a pro and a con to everything, right?
00:49:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:49:34
Vic
You have to, you have to, I taught my daughter when she was growing up, question everything.
00:49:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true. Yeah.
00:49:39
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:49:39
Vic
Don't take anybody's word for anything on any subject. If you, if something doesn't smell right, look into it. Right. And understand why things are that way, which is exactly what I did with that board with the WD-40.
00:49:55
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:49:55
Vic
Right. It's like, I was going I wanted to find out for myself if this was true or not. I mean, the, the motive was a bit fucked up, but yeah. But the idea was, is that like, okay, well, I got this guy who says no, and you're saying yes, well, I'm going to find out.
00:50:11
Vic
And that's what you have to do. Because right now, I mean, like the you know, our whole world is fucked up because we just take the word of somebody
00:50:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's true, but that apparently i was reading a bunch of research and I was reading, you know, um a particular set of research by his name is Philip Fernbach.
00:50:20
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:50:21
Vic
and
00:50:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's a doctor at the lead school of business in the University of Colorado. And he makes a strong case that what everything you guys just said, that learning from other humans, right, even though it's fraught with misinformation at times, is what is uniquely human about us, that humans are really the one animal species that has learned to collaborate.
00:50:53
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:51:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we, that separates us from the rest of the animals.
00:51:03
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
00:51:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sharing knowledge in pursuit of goals is something uniquely human. And it has propelled us to soaring heights. Like a couple examples.
00:51:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Think about a Gothic cathedral. These were started in the 1200, like around the year 1200, right? When the, now,
00:51:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No single human knew how to build a Gothic cathedral from start to finish. Every step, every art form, the glass, the the architecture, cutting the stones. ah you There is just no single human who has all that information. It required...
00:51:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
knowledge transfer across multitudes of different artists. And then to think that these cathedrals didn't get built for sometimes four or 500 years, like that transfer of information, right?
00:52:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
From the stonemasons to the woodworkers to put up scaffolding to the glass artists, to the architects, you know,
00:52:10
It's all bullshit
Yeah. To the dozen different architects who were in charge of that project over 400 years.
00:52:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
00:52:14
Vic
Right.
00:52:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, I mean, and and our modern day equivalent of that could be something internet based, or it could be the the space shuttle. There is no single human that knows how to construct a space shuttle from scratch by themselves.
00:52:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Every bit of the engineering, every bit of the polymer science and material composition. So, He makes a fascinating case that the transfer, our ability to tell each other information and learn from each other anecdotally, like we were we were kind of shitting on it in one context, but in another context, it is what makes us human and it is why we are successful as humans, as a race. So it's just part of who we are. So let's let's take it now to um modern day.
00:53:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And like the cold open, you hear something and how do you know it's not true? When do you accept it? Do you just accept it at face value? It depends on who told you. do i Do I respect that person? Has that person demonstrated a burden of proof to me that they know what they're talking about and they'll only tell me things that are true? Or does that person kind of shoot from the hip? We have ways to grade our sources, but still none of it's foolproof, right? Yeah.
00:53:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And and we we reside also in echo chambers, right? We like to surround our ourselves with like like-minded individuals who share commonalities. And as such, you know, maybe misinformation can get propagated and we hear it among our friends and then we start repeating it. And honestly, i think a lot of us repeating misinformation is not in a bad, like we're not doing it in a malicious sense, but it's just kind of how we are as humans. Right.
00:54:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Based on this kind of research.
00:54:02
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:54:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it really makes a lot of sense to me if if I think about it in that in that context. He he ends.
00:54:09
Vic
Well, and
00:54:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry, he ends this. There's a TED talk if you want to look look it up. ah Again, Philip Fernbeck, you can find his um his TED Talk if you Google it.
00:54:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um He ends with, this is amazing. It's like a sense of understanding. So someone says something or you you watch a video on something and you think you understand it, right? Like you just watched it. You never did it. But you feel like, oh, I could do that. Yeah, I know how to do that. And suddenly watching someone do it becomes, oh, I know how to do that, right? And so he says, ascend a sense of understanding is contagious.
00:54:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And when a contagious understanding is paired with individual ignorance, ah right? It can be a toxic recipe.
00:54:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, It's like i i saw something. It makes me feel like I know it, but I didn't have the personal agency to dig deeper or test it. That's the individual ignorance. Like I just saw it. I repeated it i never i question it. I never questioned it. I never tested it. I never had the personal agency to dig deeper. Like that is how misinformation really you know roots deeply.
00:55:24
It's all bullshit
I'll tell you, as a lifelong ignorant individual, I feel seen.
00:55:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, and Eric and Eric, you know what? What's the beauty of this is he calls all of us out. We are all ignorant.
00:55:35
It's all bullshit
Sure, we all do it.
00:55:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We are all guilty of this.
00:55:36
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like all of us are doing this because yeah and he's like, and then, you know someone comes up to you who obviously has a different opinion than you.
00:55:37
It's all bullshit
Of course. It's in our nature.
00:55:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And no, you're like, Oh man, that guy's stupid. Right? Like, it's like he, this guy's a fucking a-hole. He doesn't know what he's talking about, but the truth is you don't know what you're talking about either.
00:55:53
It's all bullshit
Well, right.
00:55:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like,
00:55:54
It's all bullshit
Well, coming back to your your um your example of like building a rocket ship, it's like you can have somebody who's the, the I don't know, fucking rocket propulsion scientist.
00:56:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:06
It's all bullshit
And like they know everything backwards and forwards about fuel, about ah firing capacity, yada, yada, yada. And then if you ask them about the material the shell is made out of, they probably have a passable understanding.
00:56:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:56:17
It's all bullshit
So they're just going to like say it confidently.
00:56:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Like,
00:56:21
It's all bullshit
And then if me as this fucking ignoramus who just cuts dovetails for a living is like, well, you don't know how to actually build the show.
00:56:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right.
00:56:28
It's all bullshit
They're like, fuck off. I know way more than you do. You know, like, just calm down.
00:56:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah we You know, honestly, what you just highlighted, Eric, is we have a tendency to fill in the dots between, we have a tendency to to to fill in the dots between gaps.
00:56:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, if we know this piece over here, and we know that piece over there, we can kind of guess at what's in between, we have a tendency to do that, and or to or to like make shit up when we don't know.
00:56:42
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:56:50
It's all bullshit
and And that also gave us the false, probably false confidence, to try to fucking build cathedrals in the 1200s. Like, what? The audacity.
00:57:00
Vic
For real.
00:57:01
It's all bullshit
All right.
00:57:02
Vic
Like that's bananas.
00:57:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So yeah and anyway,
00:57:03
It's all bullshit
Vic, fire up another one, cowboy.
00:57:08
It's all bullshit
Mr.
00:57:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
go ahead, Vic.
00:57:09
It's all bullshit
Teslin, fire up another one.
00:57:09
Vic
Oh, my favorite one was actually came from, uh, Megan Fitzpatrick.
00:57:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, go ahead
00:57:15
Vic
Cause we were talking about all this, you know, woodworking is bullshit.
00:57:16
It's all bullshit
Mmm.
00:57:19
Vic
And, uh, she said, one of the biggest myths is that in order to woodwork, you must have a penis. Um,
00:57:27
It's all bullshit
ah
00:57:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ahead. That's funny.
00:57:31
Vic
And I thought and I said, I was like, that's interesting because in other conversations I've had with Megan, she i mean, she teaches.
00:57:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
mean, that's interesting. Yeah.
00:57:40
Vic
Right. And she says to me, i have men who come and pay whatever it is, a thousand bucks a for the week or whatever to take a class and then will immediately start mansplaining woodworking to me.
00:57:54
Vic
And so, of course, Megan being Megan, she just she calls it out and says, well, you've either got too much money or you're incredibly stupid. um If you.
00:58:02
It's all bullshit
This is why everybody loves Megan.
00:58:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or both.
00:58:03
Vic
it Right.
00:58:04
It's all bullshit
She don't take no shit from nobody.
00:58:04
Vic
Because no, and nor should she.
00:58:06
It's all bullshit
Right, right.
00:58:07
Vic
Right. But the but the point is, is that like, yeah, I think I think we're seeing that change happening um because, I mean, I've always said that women make way better woodworkers than men do because they're they just have a natural.
00:58:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:58:24
Vic
like attention to detail and less ego and you know, all those sorts of things. So I, I would, I always told people that I would much rather teach a woman who's never woodworked before in her life, how to woodwork than,
00:58:42
Vic
a guy who's been playing at it for five years and watching YouTube and like, you know, all that stuff, because they're going to walk in and like, well, I saw this YouTube, like my students, my students know that you don't quote YouTube in my shop.
00:58:46
It's all bullshit
Well, sure, sure.
00:58:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:58:55
It's all bullshit
ah
00:58:56
Vic
Right. And that's not that's not to say everything on YouTube is crap, because I mean, you know, present company excluded. I mean, there are some people that I recommend that people watch. Eric is one of them.
00:59:07
Vic
And because because I know these people and I know their background and I know where they're coming from. And so and it's not like, oh, well, this is what the algorithm says I have to do. So going to do that. um You know, so you could be a lot more successful, Eric, if you would just sell out.
00:59:25
It's all bullshit
Oh, sure.
00:59:26
Vic
you know, but anyway, yeah, I mean, you know, don't take,
00:59:27
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
00:59:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:59:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:59:28
It's all bullshit
I think about it from time to time.
00:59:29
It's all bullshit
Yeah. If I just started pouring river tables, God, I would be fucking swimming in money.
00:59:35
Vic
you would be, you would be, and you'd probably die at 56 from everything you've been inhaling and all that other happy horse shit, but,
00:59:36
It's all bullshit
Oh, I would be.
00:59:43
It's all bullshit
Well, you know, I think about this, um the the type of student, Larissa and I have conversations about that that student that you just mentioned regularly. And one of the things that she pointed out to me early on is there's there's obviously still um a large degree of misogyny in in many of the traits.
01:00:05
Vic
Sure.
01:00:06
It's all bullshit
Yeah. In the the classes that we teach, i I think you're exactly right that it is shifting. like We are seeing the shift happen, which is wonderful. um I think a a lot, and I don't want to say even 50%, but there is some component of those students who just have the compulsion to... Maybe it's correct. Maybe it's mansplained. Maybe it's just...
01:00:33
It's all bullshit
ah contribute information and they like it's almost like verbal vomit, like they can't stop it. And Larissa pointed out to me that the majority of those students are usually retired doctors, lawyers, successful people, high success people.
01:00:49
It's all bullshit
And they're just so goddamn used to being somebody whose voice is heard in a room that when they come into being and like it could be an alpha thing, it but it like
01:00:56
Vic
The alpha.
01:01:01
It's all bullshit
I think it's just like muscle memory of like, I have a thought and I say it and people listen and they, and it happens before they can even catch it because I've also seen students of that same milk. And again, I'm not defending them. Some of them are real assholes. Um, but I've, I've seen it happen where like when you,
01:01:20
It's all bullshit
kind of acknowledge that they're doing that and call them out and be like, Larissa has been in this goddamn field for 15 years. She's been a professional for 15 years. She knows what the fuck she's talking about. Just like, shut up and listen.
01:01:29
Vic
Right.
01:01:32
It's all bullshit
And then you like you can see like the look of recognition on their face. Like, oh, i didn't even, I didn't even clock that I was doing it.
01:01:38
Vic
Right. And I think that's where it's a cultural thing. So when I when i went and taught people how to use Veritas products in China, I was working through a translator, which is always interesting. And so i as I teach, every couple of minutes I say, does anybody have any questions?
01:01:59
Vic
And there was nothing, just complete blank stares, people looking at their paper, nothing. And so at the end of the first, so I found that a little bit odd, but then at the end of the first day, the translator came up to me and they said, listen, um you can stop asking them for questions because they won't ask.
01:02:15
It's all bullshit
They're never gonna ask.
01:02:16
Vic
And I said, well, why is that? And they said, well, because what they're going to do is they're going to go home and they're going to look at their notes of what you taught. And then tomorrow morning, She said, show up early. I'll be there early.
01:02:31
Vic
People are going to come up to one-on-one in a non-group environment and ask any questions that they have because the most disrespectful thing you can do is ask the teacher a question in a group environment because the insinuation is that you don't know what you're doing.
01:02:40
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
01:02:51
It's all bullshit
Right, you don't know how to teach.
01:02:52
Vic
And I thought, whoa.
01:02:54
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:02:55
Vic
I'm like, okay, I could get behind that as a rule. Like, you know what I mean?
01:03:01
It's all bullshit
Let's instill that everywhere.
01:03:02
Vic
Right. It's like, instead of just like, cause we always hear the people who ask those questions. I remember what, uh, be sitting in, in a, uh, uh, at a fine woodworking event. And I sat in on a lecture, Mike Pekovic was giving about the block plane.
01:03:15
Vic
And I, you know what i mean?
01:03:16
It's all bullshit
um
01:03:17
Vic
Cause like, I know how to use a block plane, I think. And, but I want to see how Mike uses a block plane because I'm sure going to pick something up and sure shit I did. But some dude in the class,
01:03:30
Vic
puts his hand up and he's like, yeah, so like when I use my Bach plane, I do like X, Y, and Zed. And I was just wondering if you ever considered doing that.
01:03:42
Vic
And it's like, well, first of all, that's not a fucking question. Right.
01:03:47
It's all bullshit
you You just raised your hand to tell me that you have experience using a block blend.
01:03:47
Vic
What you're doing is you're just, yeah, your tongue is just rattling in your face.
01:03:51
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:03:52
Vic
And then, but the, but the best was the way Mike handled it.
01:03:53
It's all bullshit
Right, right, right.
01:03:56
Vic
So Mike listened to the question and he like, he sort of squinted his eyes a little bit. Like he was thinking about it. And then he looked right at the guy and he said, no.
01:04:09
It's all bullshit
No.
01:04:10
Vic
And then just kept going. I never know. I've never thought of doing that. And so, but that's, that was again, an example of a person who is sort of trying to like, you know, their ego took over, you know?
01:04:15
It's all bullshit
no
01:04:22
It's all bullshit
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just trying to say like, hey, I have knowledge too. And you're like, that's, I love that for you. Now is not the fucking moment.
01:04:30
Vic
Right, right.
01:04:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
01:04:31
It's all bullshit
You know?
01:04:32
Vic
You're paid.
01:04:32
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:04:32
Vic
You paid how many thousands of dollars to be at this event so that you could, i mean,
01:04:35
It's all bullshit
Right, right.
01:04:39
It's all bullshit
So that you could tell Mike Pekovic that you know how to use a block plane? That's a wildly, like, irresponsible use of money.
01:04:46
Vic
Right. And I mean, if you've got that sort of money, then great. But.
01:04:50
It's all bullshit
Sure. All right. ah Here's another one for you. This is an old ism. You guys have all heard it. um And it drives me. Fuck it.
01:05:00
It's all bullshit
You know what it is, Paul? I have a real bee in my bonnet about this.
01:05:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, do you?
01:05:03
It's all bullshit
Okay.
01:05:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
be in your bonnet, as it were.
01:05:04
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Yeah. I got to be in my bonnet.
01:05:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:05:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:05:06
It's all bullshit
um
01:05:07
It's all bullshit
So the, the quote is find a job you enjoy and you'll never work a day in your life.
01:05:13
Vic
Horseshit.
01:05:14
It's all bullshit
It's dog shit. And here's why, because it doesn't matter what you do. And I love what I do. I would never do anything else, truly.
01:05:25
It's all bullshit
Anything that you do will have days that are just doing the fucking job, that are just doing the things that need to be done to pay the bills, to run the business, even if it's not a quote-unquote work in the way that we define it in in our economy.
01:05:41
It's all bullshit
Let's say you're a stay-at-home parent. You love your children, probably. i hope so. But some some days, you're just like, hey, can you shut the fuck up and go in the other room?
01:05:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm sorry.
01:05:48
Vic
Some days.
01:05:52
It's all bullshit
And like I just have to make... you food so that you'll eat it and just like be nourished. And I don't want to I don't want to eat SpaghettiOs and hot dogs for a fifth straight day, but that's the only thing you'll put in your fucking gullet.
01:06:05
It's all bullshit
So here we go.
01:06:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:06:06
It's all bullshit
so Like that's just life. It's just life. So, uh, I really hate it when people are like, Oh, you, you must never actually work because you love what you do. And I'm like, yeah. And today I spent six hours fucking accounting. So like, cause that's running a business.
01:06:25
Vic
That's Fridays for me.
01:06:27
It's all bullshit
Oh yeah.
01:06:27
Vic
Fridays is a accounting day.
01:06:28
It's all bullshit
Usually it's the first like 90 minutes of every day. I just, you know, knock it out while i'm having a cup of coffee, but I've been so busy the last like three, Oh, just sit in your pajamas and like run some numbers with a cup of coffee.
01:06:34
Vic
Oh, I should do that. Maybe
01:06:40
Vic
that's a way better plan.
01:06:40
It's all bullshit
But today it took forever because I've been basically too busy for the last month to actually do it. Um, anyway, but like I've got to be in my bonnet about that. That's all.
01:06:51
It's all bullshit
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
01:06:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think you're right. Yeah. Okay.
01:06:53
It's all bullshit
but
01:06:54
Vic
I get it though.
01:06:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:06:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I get...
01:06:54
Vic
I mean, it seems like it seems easy enough because again, it's like, I think it comes from a place where there are so many people who are dissatisfied.
01:07:03
It's all bullshit
what What are you haunted over there?
01:07:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
For those who don't have the video feed, Vic's light just went off in the room and he's in the complete pitch black.
01:07:05
Vic
right
01:07:06
It's all bullshit
Your power just went out?
01:07:12
It's all bullshit
the goat The ghost of Father Canada just canceled the light bill.
01:07:15
Vic
Alexa, i turn on the office.
01:07:19
It's all bullshit
oh
01:07:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuckin' Alexa.
01:07:19
It's all bullshit
Oh, you a fancy boy too.
01:07:21
Vic
No, not really.
01:07:21
It's all bullshit
Okay.
01:07:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:07:22
Vic
I'm not sure what happened there, but she must've misunderstood me. Um, uh, what were you talking about? Oh, yeah. I think people who people are generally like just dissatisfied with what they do eight hours a day.
01:07:36
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
01:07:37
Vic
And if you printed a bunch of like parts for my dust collector and not a single fucking one of them worked.
01:07:55
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm. hu
01:07:55
Vic
And so, and it's like, I spent hours doing that and getting, cause I had this like smart, cunning plan and then I printed everything out and then I went to put it together and I overlooked something extremely obvious.
01:07:56
It's all bullshit
ah
01:07:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha.
01:08:10
Vic
And I was like, you know what? I just, I'm just going to go sit in the back garden and eat dirt because this is shit and I hate it.
01:08:16
It's all bullshit
So how it goes some days, man. I was just so the video I was editing for the YouTube channel today was about these big mortise and tenets that I'm doing for this door. And I started the video like i filmed the opener.
01:08:32
It's all bullshit
I grabbed the pieces and I was like, let's fucking go. I'm knocking out the joint today, getting it done one day. The second that I moved the pieces to the machine side of the room, the thickness planer shit the bed.
01:08:44
It's all bullshit
And so I had to spend the entire day that day fixing the thickness planer instead of doing any of the things that I had planned that day. And like,
01:08:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:08:54
It's all bullshit
That's running a shop. Did I want to spend seven hours dismantling learning how the innards of this machine works and reassembling it all and zeroing everything out? No, I wanted to cut some fucking mortise and tenons.
01:09:06
It's all bullshit
But hey, that's how it goes. But I'm doing what I love. So I didn't even work that day, apparently.
01:09:10
Vic
Not at all. Not a second.
01:09:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, people who say that they don't, yeah, you never work a day in your life. They are obviously are not familiar with the concept of hedonic adaptation, which says that no matter how fucking happy or how sad you are, we all go back to the steady state pretty quick.
01:09:14
It's all bullshit
All right, Paul.
01:09:26
It's all bullshit
Mm-hmm.
01:09:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Our natural set point. So for those people, and that's just a feel good internet meme anyway. um my next My next myth is like, you shouldn't use sapwood and you should get rid of all knots and imperfections.
01:09:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, are you fucking dumb? Like, like sapwood is some of the most beautiful wood. yeah and Like the transition that the color gradients between like heartwood and sapwood and sapwood tends to be extremely curly.
01:09:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The sapwood tends to be showstopping in some species. And some people just cut it out as a matter of practice. Oh, it's ah highly unstable. Yeah, I would agree.
01:10:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's It's not as hard as the heartwood and perhaps.
01:10:09
Vic
How highly unstable.
01:10:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
01:10:12
It's all bullshit
um only about as much as me buddy
01:10:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly. Well, what what i will what I will admit based on observation, because I'm a scientist, is that the sapwood absorbs more finish than the heartwood. The heartwood, it just goes, it sits right on top, at least for for walnut.
01:10:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It sits right on top. And in the sapwood, it like just drinks it up. So there is some, there is some form of, I don't know, what what what do you call that?
01:10:30
Vic
Makes sense.
01:10:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um Like, is it's more like a sponge. I don't know what to is there a word for that? Like...
01:10:43
Vic
Well, was more recently transporting fluid than the heartwood was.
01:10:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:10:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. So there's some structural difference where one's drinking up finish and the other it's not and it's sitting on the surface. So I give you that there is a structural difference. Now, whether it makes a difference in ah a piece of wood or like you're using it for like a little box or something, that's just stupid because all the wood is more than strong.
01:10:47
Vic
so
01:11:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. So why would you cut this beautiful wood out as a matter of principle? That's so that is just such backwards thinking. And then people have these tables where they take out every imperfection and quote unquote imperfection, even calling it that shows your confirmation bias and. They replace it with these squares of wood.
01:11:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They like will route it out and put a square chunk in and like, oh, think it looks really good. And I'm like, really? Because obviously you need your eyes checked. That looks like shit. If you left the wood alone in its natural beauty, like the organicness of the the moving grain and the voids and the impoverished.
01:11:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so-called imperfections. Like that is the world is curly. Have you not noticed the world is not straight and not square and and organic? That is what humans find beauty in. What are you doing putting these square patches over something that was already beautiful? What a mistake there. I'm done.
01:12:06
Vic
Well, it, oh.
01:12:06
It's all bullshit
The number of t-shirts we could sell if we made one that said the world is curly, not straight. Like that's there's a whole market for that.
01:12:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, you got to give Alan Watts credit for that. That's an Alan Watts-ism.
01:12:19
It's all bullshit
OK, all right.
01:12:20
Vic
But you know what?
01:12:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's wiggly.
01:12:21
Vic
You're right.
01:12:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The world is... It's wiggles and goo. That's what he called it. The world is wiggles and goo.
01:12:25
It's all bullshit
That's that's not.
01:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:27
It's all bullshit
Nope, nope. We're not putting that on a t-shirt.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that... Well, that that's to Vic's earlier point about him loving sex too much. Yeah.
01:12:36
Vic
So listen, nobody is, you can't put, well, look, I've got a I've got a wrist. This is what I rest my wrists on when I type.
01:12:47
Vic
Okay. It's a chunk of white, it's a crotch of white Oak.
01:12:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A crotch.
01:12:51
Vic
And, and ah so I have my hand on a crotch all day.
01:12:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Caleb.
01:12:56
It's all bullshit
Goddamn right.
01:12:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's beautiful. I do too.
01:12:58
Vic
But yeah,
01:12:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:12:58
It's all bullshit
Hmm.
01:12:59
Vic
but Like it's got it's got holes from bugs and it was something that was just going to get thrown away.
01:13:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:13:08
Vic
And I was like, nope, that's going to be my wrist rest when I'm typing. And you're never ever going to be able to get a color match the way Mother Nature did it.
01:13:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's right.
01:13:22
Vic
So when you take cherry and then you've got the sap, like that cream color and that particular red hue, like you couldn't, you couldn't pick two colors that are better suited to be next to each other.
01:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm hmm. Beautiful. Yeah.
01:13:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:13:36
It's all bullshit
So...
01:13:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, and, and sorry, Eric, but to your point, Vic, the wormholes, I, the woodworm holes, I think they're lovely. I leave them in boxes.
01:13:43
Vic
Yeah.
01:13:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like there are like holes and voids. Like you can see through the box side in some of my boxes.
01:13:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just leave it. I don't care one day. I think it's gorgeous.
01:13:50
Vic
Sure.
01:13:54
Vic
Yes.
01:13:56
It's all bullshit
I think that both of the examples that you brought up are things that were, they they had a functional reason not to to to be cut away. And then we've developed, quote unquote, like pseudoscience reasons to to do them kind of thing. So hear me out. hear me I see your face. Hear me out here.
01:14:18
It's all bullshit
let's Let's take the the imperfections as as the first example. Let's take knots for an example.
01:14:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, knots.
01:14:23
It's all bullshit
So you're making a chest 100 years ago.
01:14:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:14:28
It's all bullshit
You're making a tabletop, whatever it is. And you bring it to a client's house, and it's got a handful of small knots, not necessarily pinhole knots, but not the giant ones either.
01:14:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:14:38
It's all bullshit
but they are what we have deemed imperfections because what happens is over time, that table expands and contracts in the not does not.
01:14:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:14:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Pops out.
01:14:48
It's all bullshit
And it pops out.
01:14:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:14:49
It's all bullshit
And so a client who doesn't know anything about wood or wood science or the stability of wood sees a piece of their table fall out and they go, well,
01:14:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's right.
01:14:56
It's all bullshit
What the fuck, man? The table's falling apart. Like something is wrong.
01:14:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm hmm hmm
01:14:59
It's all bullshit
And so, right, right.
01:15:00
Vic
Let me speak to your manager.
01:15:02
It's all bullshit
And so an industry goes, it's just easier for us to fill that or patch it. And it it makes the client happy and it saves us from future repairs or headaches in the long run, right?
01:15:12
It's all bullshit
And so similarly with the sapwood, I don't think that there is any scientific reason not to use sapwood. And anybody who who really claims that is either, again, engineers are taking all kinds of strays this episode, but I think it's warranted.
01:15:26
It's all bullshit
Like if you're worried about the expansion or stability rate of sapwood versus the heartwood, I think you're you're overthinking it. Yeah.
01:15:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't use wood. Yeah.
01:15:33
It's all bullshit
Yeah, maybe maybe take a Xanax.
01:15:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Use steel.
01:15:34
Vic
Yeah. Use plastic.
01:15:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:15:35
It's all bullshit
You're going to be fine.
01:15:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Use steel or concrete if it's bugging you.
01:15:36
Vic
Use plastic.
01:15:36
It's all bullshit
um Yeah, but but coming back to the coloration point that Vic also brought up, that that pairing is perfect, right?
01:15:37
Vic
Yeah.
01:15:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
from
01:15:44
It's all bullshit
The sapwood and the heartwood. like Cherry has ah has a very mild, warm tone in its sapwood that matches with the redness of it, but when you are producing objects in a line,
01:15:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's beautiful. Mm-hmm.
01:15:56
It's all bullshit
everything needs to look the same.
01:15:58
Vic
Mm-hmm.
01:15:58
It's all bullshit
And if you, this like this is why we color wood in in industry, right? So that you can make a tabletop out of four or five different trees and all of those trees and all those sticks are going be different colors.
01:16:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm. Uniformity.
01:16:11
It's all bullshit
And you can stain those to be pretty close to a uniform color unless they're sapwood in there. And now all of a sudden it becomes a massive headache for anybody who's producing objects at scale.
01:16:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Eric, I accept your point. But no, no, not but I've always learned to use the word and instead of but, but sounds so controversial. I accept your point.
01:16:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And do you think that that mentality of, of production that, meant that, sorry, that industrial production mentality has seeped into the hobbyist psyche?
01:16:45
It's all bullshit
Yeah, I think 1000%.
01:16:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's why they say you can't use sapwood.
01:16:47
It's all bullshit
one thousand percent And and here's here's the reason why.
01:16:48
Vic
100%. Yep.
01:16:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:16:50
It's all bullshit
I think it's because there are so few people making individual objects anymore. And there's been a resurgence, right? We see more people because of the internet. So for all of the shit that the internet takes, we do see more people making one-off objects on the internet.
01:17:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:17:06
It's all bullshit
Prior to that, the only people that you saw making one-off objects were people, you had to go to a furniture show.
01:17:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:17:13
It's all bullshit
You had to know they existed, seek one out, buy a ticket, and they're not cheap, travel to it, and then look at those objects for an afternoon.
01:17:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:17:21
It's all bullshit
Everything else that you saw and was considered high quality craftsmanship was produced at a mass production scale. And so I think over the course of the 20th century and maybe even before that, we started to associate the look of mass produced furniture with high quality craftsmanship. And that's where a lot of those biases started to seep into, you know, the hobbyist furniture maker as we know it now.
01:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, wow, you just took you just took the air out of my sails there, bitch.
01:17:43
Vic
I would agree.
01:17:46
It's all bullshit
I got you, boy. Sometimes I have a good point.
01:17:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuck, i don't like I don't like it, but it's all I like it.
01:17:49
It's all bullshit
ah
01:17:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like it and I don't like it at the same time. You bitch.
01:17:55
It's all bullshit
It's like porn.
01:17:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah I didn't say that!
01:18:02
Vic
Well, you inferred it.
01:18:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha!
01:18:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, enough of that topic.
01:18:08
It's all bullshit
All right. All right. ah Let's see. Vic, close this out with one more. You got a good short one, buddy?
01:18:17
It's all bullshit
so
01:18:17
Vic
Who may be short, but it's skinny.
01:18:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, God.
01:18:23
Vic
Um, another, yeah. Okay. Okay. Don't put your plane down on the soul.
01:18:34
It's all bullshit
Oh, love this one.
01:18:36
Vic
And it's like, you know what?
01:18:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
blade down.
01:18:37
Vic
It's so funny because like nobody can tell us why it is that way. We can only speculate based on like certain things.
01:18:43
It's all bullshit
Mmm.
01:18:46
Vic
um The theory that i like, true or not, is that in the old days, we had planes that were, so blades were set with wedges.
01:19:00
Vic
And if you put one of those down too hard, perhaps you took the set off the wedge. And then the plane would, the set would come off the plane.
01:19:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:19:10
It's all bullshit
I haven't heard that theory. That's an interesting one.
01:19:11
Vic
And so that's, that's the one I like the best because like the other ones, I don't really understand because they don't really hold water, but the wedge thing kind of holds a bit of water. And so it's like, okay, I could buy that.
01:19:22
It's all bullshit
Okay. There, there, there are two, there are two that, um, I can see both of them having a real impact on this myth. All right. The first is the, the cabinet maker, the trim carpenter, the finished carpenter who takes their plane on the job site.
01:19:41
It's all bullshit
So if you're in a workshop, I know my bench, I am the only person who works at my bench.
01:19:41
Vic
Right.
01:19:44
Vic
Right.
01:19:46
It's all bullshit
I know what goes on my bench. And if I put a plane down blade down on my workbench, I know it's safe.
01:19:52
Vic
Right.
01:19:52
It's all bullshit
If I go to a job site and I have a table, I'm working around other people, stonemasons, metal workers, whatever, there's shit everywhere. There's debris everywhere.
01:20:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:20:02
It's all bullshit
And if I put my plane down, blade down, anywhere on that site, I might ground ah steel into it.
01:20:02
Vic
Yep.
01:20:10
It's all bullshit
I might ground sand into it I could damage the edge. And so it's safer at that point just to turn it on the side.
01:20:13
Vic
It's true.
01:20:15
It's all bullshit
And I do find myself doing this when I do take block planes onto a job site, I'll instinctively lay it down on its side because I don't know but the surface is probably dirty. So there's one area where I could see that impacting it. The other one, and as a previous shop teacher, I like this one and I can see it.
01:20:32
It's all bullshit
I taught my students to use hand planes in the classroom. um And if you know anything about children between the ages 11 and 18,
01:20:44
It's all bullshit
care for the physical world around them is not of the utmost concern. And so they just throw shit around and their shit on the bench, their screwdrivers on the bench, their screws on the bench, they slam them down, they drop them on the floor, et cetera, et cetera.
01:20:57
It's all bullshit
And so ah theory is that, um, woodshop teachers in the early 20th century started to develop this habit of teaching students to lay it on their side so that they didn't slam it down on like a screwdriver or a screw.
01:21:12
It's all bullshit
Because the other thing is,
01:21:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You...
01:21:15
It's all bullshit
when you have a bunch of 13 year olds in a wood shop using hand planes, who's sharpening those fucking blades, this guy, right?
01:21:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No...
01:21:23
It's all bullshit
And if I can prevent Tommy and Jason and dipshit Joe from slamming down another blade.
01:21:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
01:21:30
It's all bullshit
Yeah. Joe just took a stray there. Unfortunately, um, from slamming the plane down on a blade and damaging that blade. Well, that's one less blade I have to sharpen that week, you know?
01:21:40
Vic
Truth.
01:21:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm...
01:21:42
It's all bullshit
So those are the two that I could see having some plausible reason, but either way, there's no reason to do it.
01:21:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. I, I, I leave mine on the side. I don't know why. don't know if it's habit or just, I leave a lot of shit on my bench. That's metal. So I guess I'm just like the probability of hitting a ruler or something is much higher.
01:22:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If I put a blade down than blade to the side, I,
01:22:04
It's all bullshit
Did you, did you take woodchop when you were in middle school and high school?
01:22:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I did. Yeah.
01:22:08
It's all bullshit
Did they teach you on the side or
01:22:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I, no, no, no, we didn't have hand tools back then, but I was Eric.
01:22:12
It's all bullshit
now
01:22:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was, I remember being mystified that they allowed us to use a lathe at that age because, but,
01:22:21
Vic
Same. Grade 7, I used a lathe for the first time.
01:22:21
It's all bullshit
Mm. Mm-hmm. They are, they're fascinated by it though.
01:22:24
Vic
Terrifying.
01:22:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:22:26
It's all bullshit
Teaching middle schoolers to use a lathe is, is really, they're, they are like transfixed by it.
01:22:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I must've.
01:22:27
Vic
Yeah.
01:22:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:22:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Vic, I'm with you.
01:22:32
Vic
Sure.
01:22:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was in seventh grade. I don't think I was qualified to stick ah metal objects in this fast spinning thing.
01:22:36
Vic
No!
01:22:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It seems dangerous as hell now that I think about it.
01:22:40
It's all bullshit
I mean, I taught middle schoolers to use a lathe. They're fine. Nobody cut a finger off or got their hair wrapped in it.
01:22:47
Vic
Well, and now that I think about it, when I think about like the tools we were using, basically we were just using scrapers.
01:22:54
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:22:55
Vic
And so, you know, now that I know a little bit about turning and like, you know, understand gouges and stuff, it's like, no, we weren't doing any of that.
01:22:55
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:23:02
It's all bullshit
Yeah. I'm not going to give him a fucking gooseneck bowl gouge. Like, you know, like there's.
01:23:05
Vic
Yeah.
01:23:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
how but ah How about a skew?
01:23:06
It's all bullshit
Yeah.
01:23:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Be like, what do you mean you can't turn beads with a skew, you fucking pussy?
01:23:10
Vic
Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Get to it.
01:23:15
Vic
That's right. You want to be in the home ec class?
01:23:19
Vic
The things they used to say to us. My God, it's a miracle we turned out at all.
01:23:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is Yeah, we're such great examples.
01:23:26
It's all bullshit
Oh, my God.
01:23:26
Vic
Reprobates that we are.
01:23:29
It's all bullshit
Oh, all right. Let's wrap this up before we get in trouble.
01:23:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, y'all. Well, that was great, Vic. Thank you for bringing this interesting topic.
01:23:35
It's all bullshit
Yeah, thanks, buddy.
01:23:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think for all of us to keep in mind, like I feel as though, you know based on the reading of the research, which I thought was fascinating, the the obviously, they the tendency to repeat or to learn from each other and repeat it is...
01:23:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
undeniably human, but then comes the personal agency into asking yourself, how do I know that's true?
01:23:58
Vic
right
01:24:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that true? How could I test it? Is there someone else I could ask? So I think it's a balance because you can't do that with everything. There's just not enough time in the day. So you kind of have to pick your battles.
01:24:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a really interesting topic. Thank you, Vic. It was awesome.
01:24:18
Vic
Oh, my pleasure.
01:24:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Vic, for for those people who want to find you, ah you do take classes, right? Like you take, you mentor students and you give personal.
01:24:26
Vic
Yeah.
01:24:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell us tell us ah a bit about what you offer.
01:24:30
Vic
Yeah, so um the primary thing that I do now, I don't take teach group classes very much anymore because it's very, as as anybody who's taught knows that you're trying to, you know, you've got people that are at this level and you've got people that are at this level and trying to find that happy medium. Somebody's unhappy. You're either going too slow or too fast or whatever. So I sort of switched my model to be more one-on-one.
01:24:54
Vic
um And so that's, I have two basic sort of groups of students. I have people who are just learning how to woodwork. And so a lot of that is technique and, you know, how to use certain tools and that kind of stuff.
01:25:07
Vic
And then the other is mentorship, which is basically people who've been at it for a little while. And then, and they, and those are the ones that are allowed to say, hey, listen, I just saw Eric Curtis do this on the, on YouTube.
01:25:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
01:25:19
Vic
Is that, is that a smart idea?
01:25:20
It's all bullshit
Don't don't say that to Vic. Do not. Whatever they're bringing up is probably not.
01:25:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don't
01:25:24
Vic
Right. And so it's like, but I mean, you have people who, you know, see techniques that are on the internet and they're like, it didn't look safe.
01:25:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't follow that clown.
01:25:26
It's all bullshit
so
01:25:33
Vic
Is it, is it safe? And it's like, yeah.
01:25:35
It's all bullshit
Oh, that's what we're talking about in the after show now, because I got a good example of that.
01:25:38
Vic
So, yeah.
01:25:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a good one.
01:25:39
It's all bullshit
Uh huh.
01:25:40
Vic
So, I mean, there's, you know, so it's basically the mentorship is they sign on with me for an hour and pepper me with questions. Which, again, it's that like, like what you were saying, Paul, about like, sometimes like you hear something, but you've got to sort of like verify with somebody else who you believe has the credentials to give you a good answer.
01:25:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:25:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
01:26:01
Vic
And so that's basically what I'm doing is I'm basically, well, it's popular.
01:26:01
It's all bullshit
Oh, damn.
01:26:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:26:03
It's all bullshit
That's a valuable service.
01:26:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Vic, is this online?
01:26:07
Vic
Yeah, it's online and in person.
01:26:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is this all online?
01:26:09
Vic
So if you're near me, you can come to my shop.
01:26:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, cool.
01:26:12
Vic
I can go to your shop. It's we can do that.
01:26:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:26:14
Vic
But I have students in different countries and different like on the other side of the equator.
01:26:20
It's all bullshit
Vic, have you ever turned a student down for having a better mustache than you? Or... I'm just, I'm asking for a friend.
01:26:28
Vic
No, what I do is I actually ask them which waxes they use and like, uh,
01:26:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
For those that want to see Vic's glorious mustache, all you need to do is subscribe to our Patreon to get to the after show and the video feed and to support us.
01:26:37
It's all bullshit
Check out the Patreon. Damn right. ah
01:26:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We'd appreciate it.
01:26:44
It's all bullshit
And real quick before we sign off, Vic, how can the people reach you? What's your Instagram?
01:26:49
Vic
Vic Tesla and Woodworks, uh, on Instagram.
01:26:50
It's all bullshit
Is that the best place?
01:26:52
Vic
Yup. And then I also write on Substack, um, under wood slivers cause it gets under your skin. Um, and and, right.
01:27:02
Vic
Yeah, it's good.
01:27:03
It's all bullshit
Fantastic. Thank you, brother. All right, friends.
01:27:05
Vic
All right.
01:27:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, kids.
01:27:07
It's all bullshit
Catch you in the after show.
01:27:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.
01:27:10
It's all bullshit
Bye.