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All Hand-on Deck a conversation with author Jeff Barnes
32 Plays4 months ago
When Jeff Barnes, the author of All Hands-On Deck asked at a networking event how to explain what his business did to potential customers, the advice he received was to focus on what made him unique.
Like many people it is Jeff’s experience that brings something special to what he does today.
Success in the first stage of his career meant that Jeff had to rely on his wits and the instruction manual, there was no way to phone a friend, but that is life for a submariner.
In his book All Hands-On Deck explains how the same structured, systemized approach to working and a culture of accountability, responsibility, and camaraderie can deliver exceptional improvements in business performance.
During this episode of The Independent Minds Jeff and Michael explore the importance of team work in creating a successful business, how making the wrong hiring decisions can hold a business back and what angel investors look for when considering investing in a business.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Google. It really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Find out more about both Michael Millward and Jeff Barnes at Abeceder.co.uk
Visiting Seattle, Washington USA
Jeff is based in Seattle in the North West USA. If you would like to visit Seattle you need to know that The Ultimate Travel Club members get trade prices on flights, hotels and holidays. So visit their site and use my offer code ABEC79 to receive a discount on your membership fee.
Matchmaker.fm
Thank you to the team at Matchmaker.fm the introduction to Jeff.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Jeff, you have something very interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
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Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on Fit For My Age, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
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Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abisida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone. I am your host, Michael Millward, the managing director of Abisida. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencaster. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Amazon and YouTube Music.
00:00:52
Speaker
It really does make making content so easy.
Zencaster Promotion and Offer Code
00:00:56
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster dot.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description. Now that I have told you how wonderful Sankastra is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Guest Introduction: Jeff Barnes
00:01:32
Speaker
In this episode of The Independent Minds, I am joined from Seattle, Washington, USA, by Jeff Barnes, the author of All Hands on Deck. Hello, Jeff. Hello, Michael. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you very much. I hope you can say the same. Doing well, absolutely. Halloween here in the States and we're looking forward to taking the kids out tonight. We are talking on the 31st of October, which means it is trick or treating night. And some parts of the UK, like where I am, it's called mischief night. but We won't go into that though. Let's start though, Jeff. Bye. Please, if you could tell us a little bit about who Jeff Barnes is.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. Well, as you said, I'm over here in the Seattle, Washington area, and I've lived in this area for a decade and a half now. um I'm a father, husband. I've been divorced and I've run the number of businesses post working in the military. I ran a nuclear power plant on a submarine a number of years ago and then went into fortune 500 risk management consulting and eventually into technology and innovation and capital raising and all of that. And so I've done a lot of different things throughout my career, but most of it is focused on, uh, well, I guess trying to stay out of trouble for one, but trying to, to really live life on my terms as much as I possibly can.
Career Highlights and Focus Areas
00:02:55
Speaker
What work do you do at the moment?
00:02:57
Speaker
Yeah, so currently what I do is I focus on helping investors find great opportunities to invest in companies. And then I have a marketing agency where we help venture backed startups scale their companies up so that those investors who invested can actually see a return on their investment and the entrepreneurs can succeed in in scaling and exiting a company. and So you are like the scout who finds the business with the potential to be invested in. That's ah that's a good way to put it, yeah. Thank you. And then you help the investor realize the value of their investment because
00:03:34
Speaker
I think one of the realities is that no matter what it is that you decide you're going to set a business up to do, whether you're like me, an ah HR professional setting up an ah HR consultancy or an accountant or a bricklayer person who's great at code, whatever it is that you decide you are going to do in this business you are going to set up. you will have to become an accountant, a lawyer, solicitor, operations person, and probably most importantly of all, you've got to be a marketing person as well, because that's what drives the business to your business, so that you can then see the business grow. So I can see how the the everything sort of connects. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Are you allowed to tell us and anything about any of the businesses that you've found at
Capital Raising and IPOs
00:04:22
Speaker
all?
00:04:22
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. um Yeah, we've worked with, I've been doing this for over a decade now and I worked with a number of different businesses, businesses that have gone on to raise over a billion dollars in capital in that period of time. And a number of these have gone into reverse mergers or ah gotten uplisted into and various stock markets and whatnot. I haven't gone through an IPO yet. I haven't had the luck of doing that, but we have a a few that are on the roadmap right now that could potentially IPO. and These companies are generally, yeah other they're early stage tech companies. They have some form of technology involved in them. and We've done everything from Internet of Things, IoT to AR, VR, and a lot of things on the Gartner hype curve years and years ago when we're starting that. and Right now, we're working with
00:05:10
Speaker
A number of companies that are in, say for example, e-commerce space, LaunchCard is one of our companies that we're hoping will IPO in the next three to five years. We have another company that's one of our portfolios that's working with the big three hoteliers in the world, helping them to enhance the customer experience for people that are staying in hotels through their technology, hardware, and software. We worked with a number of companies that are in the the real estate space, and a property tech, edgy tech, those types of things, fintech companies, of course. Having been in the financial services space, I spent a lot of time working on fintech companies.
00:05:44
Speaker
We were looking at things like Lemonade was a company that our corporation backed a number of years back. And yeah, it's really all over the board when it comes to it. But the ultimate goal is what are these companies do?
Leadership and Team Resilience
00:05:58
Speaker
What's the technology that they can provide that actually makes life better for people? and really helps everybody live a better life in general or enjoy their life a little bit better. So it's the value add from the technology that you look for as well. Well, apart from the technology, we're always looking at the founders and the team, right? I mean, we the companies are one thing and the ideas are something else, but you you've heard that saying, ah ideas are a dime a dozen, and there's a lot of truth to that.
00:06:26
Speaker
Really what we're looking for is a really great vision, strong leadership, and the ability to to scale a team, a world-class team that's going to help a company scale because we're always betting on the chalky, not just the horse, right? um To put it in horse betting terms. Our goal is to see a company through to an exit and that 100% comes down to not the technology, not the idea, not the product or service, it always comes down to the people. And if the people don't have the staying power, the ability to weather those tough storms and really continue on in the face of adversity, then they're not going to be a really good investment. Now the companies that will quickly and easily close up shop the first time things get hard.
00:07:08
Speaker
are not the people you want to invest in. So we're always looking at the people as one of the biggest linchpins of an investment decision. So it's almost like this value in being through some bad experiences and come out the other side, having learned from them, but you'd also look for those people who've had those bad experiences had the resilience and the strength of character to make sure that they came out the other side rather than those people who had we set up a business it went so well for a period of time then it didn't go so well so we closed that one started something else it's the it's the former that you're interested in more than the more than the latter yeah that's a good way of putting it but there's a lot of value in somebody who's gone through a business and failed and come out the other side and started another one
00:07:54
Speaker
Really, it's the people that the people you don't want to invest in are the folks that are maybe leaving a job and expect to have all the money in the business on day one to recoup their existing
The Role of Failure in Entrepreneurship
00:08:06
Speaker
salary. And they're expecting an investor to pay for their lifestyle, even though nothing's been built, nothing's been proven. They don't have a product. They let a loan product market fit or anything like that. there's There's a lot of lessons learned in the failure. In fact, Brian Tracy has been quoted as saying that they did, you know not necessarily his organization, but one of the studies he quotes says that they interviewed hundreds and hundreds of self-made millionaires, people that were business moguls. so And what they found was that the average number of times those people failed before they finally became successful, the average was 11. That speaks volumes because most entrepreneurs, their first idea is not going to be a home run.
00:08:43
Speaker
right And and if you have if your very first idea is a home run, well, I think that maybe is just the first idea you might have acted on. But every entrepreneur that I know has had a hundred, if not a thousand different ideas, maybe that they didn't take action on. Some of them they did, some of them failed. But most of the time, it's it's going through that process of realizing that your idea is maybe not as great as ever as you thought it was, But then you can find these little hidden gems in that process. ah You might realize that, oh, I was building widget XYZ over here because I had this problem. I thought it'd be great. But when you go to the market, the market's like, yeah, OK, that's kind of cool. But really, this other thing that you developed along the way is actually better. And so then they they pivot, and they switch, and they they go chase that.
00:09:27
Speaker
and realize that that was even more valuable as far as the problem solving capability than their original idea. Yeah, it sound is sounds fascinating.
From Military to Business: Writing a Book
00:09:35
Speaker
The book that you've written, All Hands on Deck, I think so like describes an awful lot of the processes that go into it. But tell us a little bit more about All Hands on Deck. Yeah, absolutely. So years ago, when I was still working at a corporate job, I realized that it wasn't for me. I needed and needed more freedom in my life. And I guarantee if you talk to anybody about the job that I had, most people will say, well, how in the world is that not free enough? I saw my boss maybe twice a year. I talked to them on the phone maybe once a week. I didn't really have, I never had to go into an office. I i worked from home since 2006.
00:10:10
Speaker
So I had, and I had company car, company cell phone, company, everything, right? I was traveling all over the country. I had plenty of ah room and within my job to make decisions without having to go and ask for permission for everything. But at the end of the day, I was still stuck at a ceiling. I knew that I could do more and I wanted to do more. and And whenever you work for a large corporation, there's only so much innovation you can do and get away with before other, everybody kind of pulls you back in, right? Whether it's from fear or cost or risk or who knows what. I decided at that point I needed to go out there and start consulting with companies and helping them grow. It's what I really enjoyed doing. And I was in this this mastermind meeting with a number of people and these individuals said, okay, well, who wants to get up here and ask us questions and do a hot seat, right? It's where you you get on the room in front of everybody and there's about
00:10:59
Speaker
60, 70 people in this room and you air out your dirty laundry and you say, okay, here's the problems I'm facing and I need to figure out how to overcome this. I said, my biggest challenge right now is I can't explain to people what I do. I really don't know who to talk to and how to help them. And so they brought me up there. They said, Oh, this is an easy problem to solve. Okay. So let's start by you telling us what you did and how you got to where you are. I said, well, I started my career running a nuclear power plant on a submarine in the Navy and then, and then they stopped me. I said, what? That's what you did? I said, yeah, I used to run a nuclear power plant. I was in charge of quality assurance. I was in charge of machinery division. I was in charge of the end room at points. I was in charge of the scuba dev but and scuba divers and and doing security swims. And I said, okay, that's that's your book. You need to write a book about that, about how you guys operated and did things in the military. Tie that into how you
00:11:48
Speaker
help businesses using those same mentality because that's, I'm assuming what you do. And I said, yeah, of course, absolutely. You know, I'm appalled by how poorly most businesses are run and how most businesses operate by the seat of their pants, even if they're, In our case, it was 100 years old and sometimes you're still wondering how in the world they're in business. And so that became the impetus for All Hands On Deck and it was taking this this knowledge that I had about how not only you operate in the military, but how you operate on a submarine where you can't phone a friend there's no income to save you and if things go bad more even knows about it until you don't check in at the next port because you didn't show up or you didn't you know to the radio's up to you know to broadcast. So it's a very different operating environment and paradigm when you're living on a submarine let alone operating a nuclear power plant than it is.
00:12:40
Speaker
running a business, but there's so many different corollaries there that we can, we can leverage in the analogies and the the stories that can kind of tie it directly into how you should run a business
Entrepreneurship Parallels with Submarine Isolation
00:12:50
Speaker
effectively. So you can scale it up and eventually exit it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause on a submarine, nuclear submarine, I suppose, like you, you have no contact and I mean, you have no contact. with anyone outside of the submarine for months on end. And you can't surface until you get back to your designated safe port. So you are on your own, which I think is something that a lot of founders of organizations, a lot of entrepreneurs would actually very much relate to. It it is a very lonely experience starting a business. You're surrounded by all sorts of
00:13:30
Speaker
people who want to be your best friend because they want to sell you something, but you're still very much on your own and you have to make your own decisions. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say that even being an entrepreneur is even more lonely, right? Because um At least on a submarine you have 130 to 160 other guys you're hanging out with and you become a family in your brotherhood and you get to share in the misery together right you get to commiserate in the situation and At least you have that when you're an entrepreneur if you are isolated from other entrepreneurs and you don't spend time at networking events or business events and and conferences and seminars and you're not surrounding yourself with other entrepreneurs and not just entrepreneurs. All right. I want to make sure I'm really clear here. A entrepreneur is somebody who would really like to start a business. They want to be an entrepreneur, but they haven't quite figured it out. They haven't pulled the trigger. They haven't done that thing and they just keep talking about it. And they're, you know, maybe they're doing a side hustle for a really long time, but maybe it's years on end that they're doing a side hustle. They're not really an entrepreneur.
00:14:28
Speaker
An entrepreneur is someone who has cut all ties with all other sources of income and they have to go out there and eat what they kill. Not only that, but then they also have to provide for all their staff and their vendors and everybody else who's relying on them. And so as an entrepreneur, not only are you you know beholden to making sure that you're taken care of and your family's taken care of, but you're also making sure that your employees and your your contractors, those people are getting paid and taken care of as well. And then your clients and all the people who rely on you, everybody is relying on you. And it gets to be lonely because even the person that you might be laying next to at night or eating at eating dinner with, your spouse, your family, your partner, whoever,
00:15:07
Speaker
um yeah They don't understand it, right? They don't get this the stress that you're under of having to make payroll every week and making sure the bills are paid on time and making sure that you can still pay the electricity bill just so you can continue to run your business. Or how are you going to afford to travel to the event that you know you need to be at or go see a the client that you know you need to see in person but you can't even afford to get there and you're really hoping to close the deal but you don't even know if you can afford to and you have to beg, borrow, and steal to get there. like That is a and new level of loneliness when you don't have that ah ability to share that with other people and that really does speak volumes to the mindset of these crazy art entrepreneurs that want to go out there and and change the world. yeah
00:15:51
Speaker
I have a friend who set up a business around the same sort of time as I set up Abecedah. His was very labor intensive. You had to have a team of people almost from day one and he had to sell enough of what the company made each month to cover that wage bill before he could even think about buying anything for himself or his family. It was like feeding the machine of the organization to make sure that he was paying people's salaries, which I think is also when you mentioned like the the team that you recruit, the most important part of of employment and and being an employer is the hiring decision that you make.
00:16:34
Speaker
and making sure that you take on the right people. There's no point in saying, oh, that person isn't right for the job, but you know we'll give them some training. You want someone who is right for the job and has the potential to develop as your organization is going to develop, which is where the training comes in, especially when you're in a startup. Too many entrepreneurs, when they need help inside their organization, when they need to start taking people on, From what I see, I see them taking on family, see them taking on friends, taking on friends of friends, rather than going through a proper recruitment process and finding the right person for that role. And because they haven't got the right person, they've got somebody that they like, they've got somebody who's been recommended, a very soon having to refill the vacancy because the person realizes it's not for them and leaves. and
00:17:33
Speaker
building that team around you, once you've decided to make the plunge and be an entrepreneur, that that is a real challenge. You know, you hit the nail on that. I mean, not only is it a real challenge, but it's so vital to a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, when you get started, you you fill the vacancies because you don't have time to do all the things. And most people will get started and they will do all the things. They'll wear all the hats. They'll be the CFO, COO, CEO. They'll be the chief cook and bottle washer. And they'll do everything because they can't afford to hire somebody. And I've been there. I've been that guy that literally doesn't have enough money in my bank account to go out there and buy dinner for myself or buy the groceries. And yet somehow I need to bring people on board to my team
00:18:22
Speaker
and get them to buy into this vision and work for free because I can't afford to pay them or I'm hoping that by the time payroll comes around in two weeks, I will have made enough money to cover payroll. And that's a level of stress that most people can't handle. um So what I suggest to entrepreneurs who are doing this is that Finding the right partners when you're getting started is quite possibly the most important decision you
The Importance of Team and Partners
00:18:47
Speaker
can make. And I've made that decision incorrectly a few too many times, to be quite honest. Haven't we all? Yeah. If you can't find the right partner, and it's not easy, right? Most of us are not HR people. And ill for myself, I'm very trusting of people. At least I used to be. I used to trust that people could do what they said they could do.
00:19:06
Speaker
or wouldn't lie about their experience or wouldn't lie about their capabilities or their time commitments or anything. And those are the things you learn the hard way, unfortunately, that most people will say what you want to hear to get the job, to get the equity, to to come on board because they think that you're gonna just be the person that's gonna drive the the ship as well, steer the ship, make the power, do with the everything, and they just get to be along for the ride and maybe show up for a meeting here and then. And it's a lot of work. I don't care how easy the business is, I've started, a chiropractic and functional medicine practice. I started a financial services practice. These are things that are not truly innovative, but it still requires a lot of work. And if you don't have the right people on your team in the first place, whether you can afford them or not is irrelevant because eventually it's going to end up costing you. And you need to be very smart about who you bring on. And you need to be very, very diligent about how you spend and manage your own time so that you can achieve the goals and the metrics that you really want to.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yes. And this is this is what you've explained in your book, All Hands on Deck. That's a part of it, yeah, and absolutely. One of the bigger parts, I'd say, of All Hands on Deck is that once you find the right team, and the right team, what I try to explain to a lot of entrepreneurs is that the right team is the one that isn't going to do all the work for you, but they support you so that you can do what you do best, right? Here we are. You and I are sitting here talking on a podcast and which means and I'm helping build my brand and my business's brand. and We're getting the message out there. Well, I couldn't do this if I had to do all the jobs that my team is doing right now. And that allows me to go out there and talk and and tell the story and talk about these types of things that my team can't. So what you're trying to do when you're building your team,
00:20:52
Speaker
is you're trying to, what I call, moving the expertise upstream. You are trying to get to a point where you are the one who has the expertise, has the experience, and you focus on the thing that you can do best. And generally, as the entrepreneur, that is building relationships, building the business pipeline, talking about the vision. In some cases, you might be that tech entrepreneur that is just so deeply ingrained in technology that you should be focusing in on building the technology. which means somebody else needs to come in and support the sales and the marketing and the accounting and you know making sure the business license is caught up, right? And making sure that your email servers are working properly. All those little things that need to happen can be outsourced to somebody else. You need to find somebody else who can do that so you can focus on your true genius, your zone of genius. And if you don't do that, you will burn out, right? You will absolutely burn out. But then the other part of all hands on deck is how do you develop the systems
00:21:50
Speaker
the standard operating procedures, the technology behind helping those people be effective at their role so that you can focus on your zone of genius.
Delegation and System Development
00:22:01
Speaker
And that's really the whole point of all hands on deck. right The captain of the ship doesn't steer the ship. He doesn't drive the ship. He doesn't make it go up or down. He doesn't dive. He doesn't make sure the the power plant's running. He doesn't make sure that the electricity's running. He doesn't even make sure that yeah we have fresh air and and clean water to drink. he makes sure that the mission is getting accomplished. And a commanding officer of any naval vessel will tell you that the most important thing that you have is a great crew. But the second most important thing, I would bet that that a lot of them would say, is you have a great system, right? Here you are, here I was or rather, 19, 20 years old, operating a nuclear power plant. That doesn't happen most places.
00:22:46
Speaker
And so what does that come down to? It comes down to discipline and training and systems and following procedures to a T and not letting us veer off of that. But you have to have the right people who can handle that and manage that in the first place. So team and people are most important and then having the processes and the systems and technology to support them is right behind that. Yes, it sounds sounds like I'm listening to myself. An awful lot of what we do in HR, people see as administration, but actually when we start being real HR people, what we're talking about is exactly what you've just been talking about.
00:23:20
Speaker
making sure that as a manager of an organization, you can manage the organization because you've delegated and you can't delegate anything until you have identified all the different processes, all the different rules, regulations, standards of performance that need to be put in place. And you've divided up the work so that it forms logical, effective jobs. And then you've found exactly the right person to do that job and made sure they've got the skills, the knowledge and the right type of attitude to actually do that job and want to do that job well.
00:23:57
Speaker
And then you can delegate to them in con with confidence and then focus on where you are going to add the most value. And it's for every entrepreneur to work out where their greatest value can be added or how they are going to add the most value, which is why I think you find there will be entrepreneurs who You think of the top person in the organization, the managing director, the the chief executive officer, but they're not. They're the chief technical officer or the chief marketing person, or they take on a role which suits their skill set in order to make the organization successful.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, it does happen. And sometimes to the detriment of the business, right? yeah um If you don't have, I've referenced with you in another conversation, the book Traction by Gino Wickman, which is a great book. And he talks a lot about, you know, some of these same principles, same things, and they've developed their own processes around this. But he talks about how you have that visionary leader, that person who is really driving the future of the business but they're not so much wanting to be involved in the day-to-day operations of the business.
00:25:16
Speaker
And if you don't have somebody else who is yeah like a hawk on this and and keeping an eye on it, making sure that the operations are aren going forward properly, then you don't really have a business. You have a great idea, but you don't have a business yet. And you Especially if you're scaling an innovative hypergrowth company, you need somebody with their head in the clouds. right You need that person who has a million ideas a minute. and And they just keep thinking about all these crazy, great things to do. The problem with those people, though, they don't have the patience, the time, the desire to sit down and figure out how to implement all of it. They they really don't. And it's the biggest challenge that most entrepreneurs have is that they have the ideas. And to them, and I'll but say myself included sometimes, it's like, well, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out, guys. I had the idea yesterday. Why don't we have it done? right And the fact is that most people do not think at that level
00:26:12
Speaker
And so the other part of all hands on deck was how do you break it down into its component parts, right? And when you're operating a nuclear power plant, you have dozens of people doing dozens of different jobs and they all have to be done in the proper sequence. Otherwise things don't work. And you need to think about that inside of your business too. There's dozens of different things. And yes, maybe you as entrepreneur, CEO, founder, whatever, have figured all these pieces and parts out but you're the anomaly and most people can't figure that out and they need hand holding and they need direction and they need somebody to celebrate those little ones with them because to you and and I'll speak to my for myself here some of these little things that other people can do
00:26:56
Speaker
don't really seem that significant to me or to the entrepreneur. We're like, no, that that's just part of your job. That's what you had to get done. However, to them, it's really important that you acknowledge the fact that they did something that really helped you drive the business forward. And it could be seriously as simple as figuring out an email signature, right? So the company looks like it's properly branded every time an email goes out. But those little things is like, yeah, that should have been done. It's really simple to do. I don't know why it's so hard. And I don't know why you're whining and complaining that I don't praise you enough. Well, most people are not entrepreneurs. Most people do not want that same level of stress and and responsibility, but they do want to be acknowledged for contributing to the cause. And that's something that's very hard for a lot of entrepreneurs to figure out and wrap their head around. But that is a very critical piece to growing a company. Yeah.
00:27:47
Speaker
It sounds like all hands on deck is almost like a handbook for entrepreneurs. I'd like to think so in a certain sense, um including existing business owners that just are looking for ways to streamline and be a little bit more efficient.
Book as a Guide for Business Owners
00:28:02
Speaker
And of course, I use my my military Navy flare too. All Hands on Deck is is almost, well, a handbook for entrepreneurs, which they should read before they start their business. But also, I think there's an awful lot of entrepreneurs and business managers who would benefit as well from applying some of the principles in All Hands on Deck. I think so.
00:28:28
Speaker
Jeff, it's all too soon that our time is up, but really whetted my appetite to find out some more about the work that
More Information on Jeff's Work
00:28:35
Speaker
you do. Where can we find out what's the website that we need to be going to? Yeah. The best place to go is angelinvestorsnetwork.com. That's my main company. That's where we ah build our network of investors. We find companies. And then as these companies are scaling, of course we have our our marketing agency. So you can learn everything about us at angelinvestorsnetwork.com. And then of course the book is on Amazon. and lots of other bookshops as well, I assume, including your local independent bookshop. But for the moment, Jeff, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed having this conversation with you and learning more about All Hands on Deck. Thank you very much. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Jeff Barnes, the author of All Hands on Deck.
00:29:22
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abocida.co.uk. There is a link in the description along with a link to angelinvestorsnetwork.com. If you've liked this edition of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime. To make sure that you don't miss out on future episodes of The Independent Minds, please subscribe. Most importantly, remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Thank you to you for listening to The Independent Minds.