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Episode 14 - Stay Hobbyist or go Full Time Professional?
1.2k Plays4 months ago
Is being a HOBBYIST enough?? Or should you lay down all the chips and go FULL TIME PROFESSIONAL?? Today we discuss the pros/cons of this critical decision faced by so many artists to help you evaluate your own decision. Paul & Mary are hobbyists while Erik is a full time professional, so we have all the viewpoints covered and get INTO IT. Join us for this important and lively discussion.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:17
pjasper
Here we go again, maker community.
00:00:17
Tile
we go again makeker community
00:00:19
pjasper
Another episode of your favorite podcast that doesn't give a shit about convention and tells it like it is.
00:00:19
Tile
another
00:00:21
Tile
doesn't give a shit about convention like it
00:00:25
pjasper
This is Woodworking is Bullshit.
00:00:26
Tile
are team
00:00:28
pjasper
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night.
00:00:28
Tile
um your brother paul gasper seven
00:00:32
pjasper
and I'm joined with my two fabulous, intriguing, and intelligent co-hosts, Eric Curtis, full-time furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tassai, AI designer by day, contemporary woodworker by night.
00:00:32
Tile
enjoy like
00:00:38
Tile
<unk>
00:00:42
Tile
as here
00:00:45
Tile
ai design by da weve worked there fine
00:00:48
pjasper
Woodworker-tris, woodwork-tris?
00:00:52
YEEERack
Woodworktress.
00:00:52
Tile
no
00:00:53
pjasper
No,
Humorous Banter and Name Jokes
00:00:54
Murr
Have you been saying my last name to Psy this whole time?
00:00:57
pjasper
no I've just been doing that to fuck with you.
00:00:59
YEEERack
We're just going to glaze over Woodworktress.
00:00:59
Tile
yeah
00:01:03
YEEERack
That's not just some seductive title right there.
00:01:06
pjasper
I just thought it was cooler than woodworker.
00:01:06
Tile
i just thought it was cooler than woodwe cur
00:01:08
Murr
That should be my Instagram handle. oh I'm sure um sure it's already out there.
00:01:11
YEEERack
Woodworktress.
00:01:11
pjasper
Woodwork dress.
00:01:14
YEEERack
Go do it. Go claim it right now.
00:01:16
Tile
it's like dominatmini
00:01:16
pjasper
It's like dominatrix but different.
00:01:18
YEEERack
ah
00:01:18
Murr
I'd also like to point out that you missed Eric's other title of Bake Shop a Renovator.
00:01:27
YEEERack
Bake Shop Renovator!
00:01:27
pjasper
jed Oh shit.
00:01:29
Murr
I don't know what you want to call it, but TV personality, two-time TV show.
00:01:30
pjasper
shit.
00:01:33
Tile
All right, tell
00:01:35
pjasper
Eric, tell everyone.
Eric's TV Show and Collaboration with Nancy Burt Whistle
00:01:37
YEEERack
Yes, yes, I have a new show out ah where it is me and an old British lady named Nancy Burt Whistle, who is a fucking delight of a human being.
00:01:37
pjasper
Eric, tell everyone.
00:01:37
Tile
everyone.
00:01:37
Tile
tell everyone.
00:01:46
YEEERack
And we are renovating bakeries in l LA. So by the time you hear this, probably about half the season will be out on the CW. And you can see it Fridays at eight prime time, baby. Or ah you can see it, I believe 12 hours after it'll be streaming on the CW app. So you can check them out there. You can just go to CW dot.com and stream it there.
00:02:07
Murr
Have you watched it yet?
00:02:07
Tile
you
00:02:07
pjasper
Eric.
00:02:09
YEEERack
I have watched it and ah it is it is a show.
00:02:10
Murr
Wow.
00:02:15
pjasper
ah
00:02:16
Murr
Nancy Burt Whistle sounds like the most stereotypical British name you could ever come up with.
00:02:21
YEEERack
You could not be more British. You could not be more British than Nazi Bet Whistle.
00:02:27
Murr
I do love great British makeup, so we'll definitely give it a watch.
00:02:30
YEEERack
Oh yeah, and she she did, she won the Great British Bake Off 10 years ago, the first season we had in the States.
00:02:36
Murr
Was it first season?
00:02:36
YEEERack
And it's not the first season, but the first season we got, it was season four.
00:02:41
Murr
Okay.
00:02:42
YEEERack
um And yeah, she's she is a delight of a human being. And it was the highlight of making the show was was working with Nancy.
00:02:51
pjasper
Well, Eric, I know you like to give your credit away to everyone, but we're all very proud of you.
00:02:52
Tile
you
00:02:56
YEEERack
Aw, thanks buddy.
00:02:57
Murr
Yeah, let's get Emmy number two.
00:02:58
pjasper
You are.
00:02:58
YEEERack
um
00:02:59
Murr
ah
00:03:00
YEEERack
I just, let's go two for two, baby.
00:03:00
pjasper
Yeah. ha Oh yeah.
00:03:04
YEEERack
I just want to say not to draw the the conversation away from this, but I do want to say that woodwork dress is not an account.
00:03:07
Murr
the
00:03:10
YEEERack
And, uh, I don't know if you remember, but your boy has a collection of accounts. And so I now have woodwork dress as one of my house would work.
00:03:18
Murr
Wait, how do you spell that?
00:03:19
pjasper
Yes.
00:03:21
YEEERack
T R E S S woodwork dress.
00:03:23
pjasper
Excellent. Anyone who wants to see questionable AI generated pictures of Mary Woodworking.
00:03:23
Murr
Good work, Truss.
00:03:24
Tile
anyone who but ai gen mary leree
00:03:29
YEEERack
And if you think exactly, if you think that's not the aftershow today, it's just us generating images of Mary Woodworking.
00:03:37
Murr
Wait, me? What?
00:03:38
YEEERack
Yep,
Using AI for Aftershow Images
00:03:39
YEEERack
yep. No, you're you're the mascot, buddy.
00:03:41
pjasper
Yes.
00:03:41
YEEERack
I don't know how to tell you this.
00:03:43
Murr
Oh, God.
00:03:43
pjasper
Okay, this shows off to a roaring good start.
00:03:43
Tile
okay
00:03:45
Murr
yeah
00:03:48
pjasper
and It's like went straight to the bullshit.
00:03:48
Tile
think like the divorce
00:03:51
YEEERack
ah Forget the Woodworking. Let's just live in the bullshit today.
00:03:53
Murr
Yeah, yeah, that's the best part.
00:03:56
pjasper
Okay.
00:03:56
Tile
okay
Serious Discussion Transition
00:03:57
pjasper
Well, we actually do have a serious show for today as usual.
00:03:57
Tile
well yeah actually do have a great
00:04:01
pjasper
And we'd like to start with a question.
00:04:02
Tile
like question
00:04:02
Murr
What?
00:04:04
pjasper
Oh my God.
00:04:04
Murr
ah Ridiculous.
00:04:07
Tile
you
00:04:07
Murr
We're just in a loosey goosey mood.
00:04:09
YEEERack
We really are.
00:04:10
pjasper
As usual, we will start with a question.
00:04:14
Murr
I would like to point out also that we tried to record this last week and had technical issues, so it' instead we just played Mario Kart all night.
00:04:21
pjasper
That was fantastic.
00:04:21
Murr
Which is also great.
00:04:21
YEEERack
And then we were going to record last night and then you were like, nah.
00:04:25
Murr
I had to help a friend.
00:04:28
pjasper
Yeah, we're your friends too.
00:04:28
Tile
yeah where you
00:04:28
Murr
But, you know, it's fine. It's fine.
00:04:30
YEEERack
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:30
Tile
and
00:04:30
pjasper
And all our all our listeners are friends and you can help them by fucking recording once in a blue moon.
00:04:30
Tile
and or
00:04:33
YEEERack
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:35
Murr
I do- oh my god, it's this gang up I did not expect.
00:04:42
YEEERack
You know what?
00:04:42
Murr
Alright.
00:04:42
YEEERack
You can help them by proposing the goddamn question for this week.
00:04:47
Murr
Okay, all right, enough. got I guess we're just like teasing me this week, apparently.
Hobbyist vs. Full-Time: Is Being a Hobbyist Enough?
00:04:55
Murr
All right, so question for this week is one that is ah commonly asked, one of the most commonly asked questions that I get, and I'm sure a lot of um my co-hosts also get.
00:05:06
pjasper
Indeed.
00:05:06
Tile
Thank
00:05:06
Murr
So the question that we're going to be addressing is, it's being in hot is being a hobbyist enough? Or should you go full time? So like we mentioned, this is commonly asked, especially for probably Paul and me because we're both hobbyists and have full time jobs. um But I think it's particularly important to talk about because people have to make that decision of whether or not to make that jump from being a hobbyist into full time woodworking or full time whatever you want to become in this field.
00:05:27
Tile
you.
00:05:36
Murr
So There's a lot of pros and cons of both and we will go over them and it kind of depends on, you know, like personal goals, financial situations, risk tolerances, passion. For me, I know like we'll we'll go over this, but passion is something that I am worried about losing if it becomes my full-time job. So um yeah, it's something that I often struggle with because I think it means that, you know, if it becomes a full-time job, I no longer have a hobby, which kind of scares me, but I know that's not always going to be the case for everyone.
00:06:11
Murr
Yeah, so Paul or Eric, where ah I guess first I'll ask Paul because you are also a hobbyist like me.
00:06:15
pjasper
Yeah.
00:06:15
Tile
you
00:06:17
Murr
Where do you land in this?
00:06:19
pjasper
Oh, God. So, all right, so first first thing I wanna do is speak from my own perspective, like how I feel, and then I wanna sort of raise some of the larger questions, Mary, that you touched on, which I think we should consider one at a time. So speaking for myself, I hear all the time from friends and family and all kinds of people, for many years now,
00:06:37
Tile
ay you all
00:06:44
pjasper
When are you gonna pursue your real passion of woodworking?
00:06:47
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:06:47
pjasper
why When are you gonna make the switch?
00:06:48
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:06:49
pjasper
And what those people don't understand is that I am, is that I am pers...
00:06:49
Tile
and what those people
00:06:52
Murr
because you're not passionate about science?
00:06:54
Tile
that
00:06:55
YEEERack
This motherfucker loves science so goddamn much.
00:06:55
Murr
Let's say.
00:06:57
pjasper
I do, I do, I do.
00:06:57
Tile
do
00:06:57
Murr
I know!
00:06:59
Murr
Two things, I would die in a hill. It's just Paul of science and Paul of design and craft.
00:07:03
pjasper
Yes.
00:07:04
Tile
yeah
00:07:05
pjasper
Yes.
00:07:05
YEEERack
ye Yep.
00:07:05
Tile
yeah
00:07:06
pjasper
Yes.
00:07:06
YEEERack
Yep.
00:07:06
pjasper
Science is my real like first passion and it is, I mean, as much as I love woodworking, I'd say it's even stronger for science and it sustained me.
00:07:06
Tile
i my real
00:07:14
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:07:17
pjasper
So, and I've never lost the love of it.
00:07:18
Tile
and i've never lost no
00:07:20
pjasper
Even though I do it as a job, I freaking love it.
00:07:20
Tile
even though i
00:07:24
pjasper
So, um, I haven't lost it at all. And so I am pursuing my passion and woodworking has become an additional passion, which is lovely.
00:07:30
Tile
Yeah.
00:07:32
pjasper
I'm so thankful, but I am good not being a full-time woodworker.
00:07:33
Tile
Science is my real, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first,
00:07:37
pjasper
I love being a scientist and I love the flexibility it affords me in the woodshop. So that's my personal answer.
00:07:45
Tile
for first
Paul's Love for Science and Woodworking
00:07:47
YEEERack
So can I ask you a question about that?
00:07:47
pjasper
Go ahead.
00:07:47
Tile
ahead book everybody
00:07:47
pjasper
But everyone wants to talk.
00:07:48
YEEERack
and Just immediately, we both raised our hands.
00:07:48
pjasper
Go ahead.
00:07:49
Tile
yeah
00:07:49
pjasper
Yeah, go ahead.
00:07:52
YEEERack
ah So I assume you plan on retiring one day.
00:07:56
pjasper
Yeah, I don't know.
00:07:57
Tile
Yeah I don't know.
00:07:57
Murr
It's like my dad.
00:07:57
YEEERack
Eh? Eh? Yeah?
00:07:58
pjasper
Actually, Eric, and wait, can can I answer that?
00:07:58
Tile
ah share we i don't imagine hiring you never more a little life not the
00:07:59
YEEERack
Because you, yeah.
00:08:00
pjasper
Wait, can I answer that?
00:08:01
Murr
ah
00:08:02
YEEERack
Go, please.
00:08:02
pjasper
Okay, so ah to me, science is not like a job I'm looking to get rid of.
00:08:09
pjasper
Science is like a way of life.
00:08:09
YEEERack
Mm-hmm.
00:08:10
YEEERack
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:12
pjasper
And I don't imagine like just retiring and never doing it again. I could see slowly downshifting like into more consulting or like a little less of ah ah a fiery role or a demanding role.
00:08:21
YEEERack
Mmhmm.
00:08:25
pjasper
But it's a lifestyle. Like science is not a job. It's a lifestyle. So I don't think I'll ever per se retire. Go ahead.
00:08:31
YEEERack
Well, that's one of the reasons I wanted to ask that is because that to me is an indicator that you can't not do something. And that's a good indication of whether or not you should pursue that as a career path. Now we'll dive into that more for sure.
00:08:44
pjasper
yes
00:08:45
YEEERack
But I was curious, like, do you see a future where you, you know, hang up your cleats as it were.
00:08:45
pjasper
Yes.
00:08:50
YEEERack
And then at that point you say, well, now I'm retired, but by definition I'm semi-professional as a woodworker.
00:08:59
pjasper
I don't know. When I'm doing science, I love it and I can't imagine not doing it.
00:09:00
Tile
when i'm doing science
00:09:00
YEEERack
Okay.
00:09:01
Tile
love it and i can't
00:09:03
pjasper
And when I'm doing woodworking, I love it and I can't imagine not doing it.
00:09:03
Murr
you
00:09:04
Tile
i'm doing
00:09:07
pjasper
And when I do one to the exclusion of the other,
00:09:07
Tile
my one other
00:09:11
pjasper
It's really not good. Like if all I do is science all the time, I feel like something's missing.
00:09:13
Tile
all i
00:09:17
pjasper
And if all I do is woodworking all the time, I hate it.
00:09:17
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:09:18
Tile
all
00:09:20
pjasper
So for me, that tells me a lot right there.
00:09:20
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:09:20
Tile
so for me that tells wow right there
00:09:24
pjasper
Do not go full time into woodworking because when I'm in the shop and Mary, I'll let you say what you want to say so bad in just a sec.
00:09:24
Tile
not
00:09:31
pjasper
When I'm in the shop eight hours a day for like a period of time, let's say there's a holiday or whatever, and I'm in the shop for long hours, I'm like, get me the fuck out of here.
00:09:31
Tile
i'm gonna shop eight hours a day like
00:09:36
Tile
um
00:09:39
pjasper
This is I just three to four three to four hours is like my max where I'm happiest after four hours, my happiness starts to decline in the shop.
00:09:46
Tile
mark happy
00:09:48
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:09:49
pjasper
Go ahead, Mary.
00:09:50
Murr
Well, I was gonna say just because I relate it's so much to that statement, anytime anyone ever asks me, like my answer is so definitive. Absolutely not. I need the two to stay balanced as a person mentally and physically, just everything about it. I need, I can't do one without the other and I don't want to do one without the other. So I like having, you know, my day job and i you and I, Paul, are in unique situations where we actually are passionate about what we do for jobs. That is not always the case for most people. Some people just work to get by to get to their hobby. And I think that is that's the audience that this question might be more geared towards of like, when do I have the capabilities of making that switch? but
00:10:39
Murr
For now, like you and I are very content in our current shops, we're passionate about it. um I don't know if like UX design says not necessarily like my passion, but design in general is, and I like having different avenues of design thinking. So those are those are probably my you know main answers whenever I get asked.
00:10:59
pjasper
Very, very well spoken, Mary. I love that answer. um I wanna bring it back to a series of questions now that will help someone in the audience listening sort of diagnose, you know, I hear ah Mary, you you said this, I hear all the time, you know, should I go full-time?
00:11:03
Tile
period
00:11:06
Tile
your audience diagnose you know your're ordinary
00:11:13
pjasper
What do you think? What should I do? You know, I hear that all the time on social media.
00:11:14
Tile
agree that
00:11:17
pjasper
And so i we have a series of of of talking points I think we'd like to move through and we'd like the reaction of Eric, who is the full-timer in this crew, right?
00:11:21
Tile
and
00:11:26
pjasper
And Mary and I, who are not,
00:11:26
Tile
as well
00:11:29
pjasper
So, sure.
00:11:29
Murr
Can I ask Eric a quick question?
00:11:31
Tile
you
00:11:31
Murr
what What would you call yourself like a full-time blank?
00:11:37
YEEERack
Oh, full-time small business owner, because I think any small business owner does 7,000 fucking things. um And you have to be a marketer, you have to be you know a producer of goods, of objects, of content, whatever it is. um So I think if I were, the way that I identify is as a woodworker. That's that's my core identity, so I still, want to think of myself as that more than anything and everything else is just the the kind of the business aspect of it.
00:12:11
pjasper
Okay, so the first question I feel like someone should ask themself, and Eric, you alluded to this issue, is why do you want to go full time?
00:12:20
Tile
why you find
Debate: Full-Time Woodworking, Passion vs. Contentment
00:12:23
pjasper
Why do you want to do that?
00:12:23
Tile
Why do you want to be that?
00:12:26
pjasper
Is it because you think you can make more money? Is it because you think it'll be fun like your hobby is now? Or is it because it's a compulsion? You love doing that thing so much that that is literally the only career you can imagine yourself doing.
00:12:47
YEEERack
That's, I think that is the fundamental question and how you answer that question determines what you should do. I mean, if if we're going to boil it down to its basic components, right? If you love doing this thing, if this is a thing that just brings you so much joy and you don't have the amount of experience, the hours of experience that say Paul does where he recognizes at this point after years of doing it, that after three to four hours in the shop,
00:13:18
YEEERack
and get pretty burnt out and I'm pretty tired of it like that that is valuable information and I think what happens a lot of the time is we get so sucked into this thing that we just become obsessed with that we ignore all of the other things that are happening we go I want to do that Also, whatever the thing is, your're you're tired of your job, you're, you're, you know, not happy in your your home life, you just have this distraction that you can focus on of this goal. And when we move toward goals, we're often happier than when we actually achieve the goal, right? So there's this illusion, this oasis of being a full time woodworker that comes into play. But
00:13:56
YEEERack
I think as I was kind of sitting with this question today, the the only analogy that I could come up with was like that of a relationship. And there are some people who get into long-term relationships and they get married or they just stay long-term partners. And if you ask them about their partner, if they're like, yeah, they're, ah they're fine. They're okay. You know, they're there. And it's like, that's, I mean, I'm glad that you are in a relationship that you seem to be content with, but also like you don't seem to be happy about it.
00:14:32
YEEERack
And if you spend too much time around that person, you're like, can you just get the fuck out of my face? Like, can you just leave me the fuck I got my own shit to do, right?
00:14:37
Murr
Haha.
00:14:41
YEEERack
ah Versus there are those people out there that exist that are like, no, this, this is my human. This is my person. And there was never any doubt that this was going to be the relationship I was in. And no matter the ups and downs that come, they have that um ability to be content and happy in that relationship. I think if that is the thing after years of of pursuing woodworking that you come down on, that you can't not do it, compulsion I think is the the kind of operative word there. If you can't not do it, then then it's the thing that you should do.
00:15:19
pjasper
So Eric, did you recognize that woodworking was your only, like the only path that would really make you happy?
00:15:32
YEEERack
Yeah, I mean, I think there were other paths that I could be kind of content with, that I could look at it and go, it is a job, it has meaning, and you know I can pay the bills with it. I don't think any of those jobs, I think of the three of us, I'm unique in that I didn't have a career path that led toward a kind of higher income. I think I had that that kind of blue collar glass ceiling if we can mix metaphors there. um And I know that's dangerous. I know I saw those eyes fall. I know that was dangerous. But like, you know, you know what I'm trying to say, right? There was a limit to the the realistic income that I was going to make.
00:16:16
YEEERack
Um, and, and so to me, there was never any question, like if it's all going to be within that range, then I would rather go do this thing, then spend my life dreaming of doing it whilst doing something else. I would rather go chase this.
00:16:32
pjasper
Do you, do you hit the wall like I do after three or four hours or is that like just the warm up period?
00:16:35
Tile
i do
00:16:37
YEEERack
No, I can, I can, I can be in the shop for 12 hours and not think about it.
00:16:42
Tile
yeah
00:16:42
pjasper
That's fantastic.
00:16:44
YEEERack
Yeah. I do it like regularly. There are times where like, I'll be in the shop, whatever it is. I could be just making a thing or it could be teaching. Like I'll go in at six 30, 7 a.m. and then work till nine, teach nine to five, and then stay in the shop till eight. And like, it's not, it's not a thing.
00:17:02
Tile
Thank you.
00:17:03
YEEERack
It's not hard.
00:17:03
pjasper
Eric, Eric, that means you chose correctly to me.
00:17:08
YEEERack
Right. Right.
00:17:09
pjasper
Because I used to be able to, i you know, we used to have these like, in grad school, we used to have these sort of study groups about, we'd read papers and discuss the science of this or that, and hours would go by like minutes, three, four, five hours would go by, and I wasn't satiated.
00:17:09
Tile
i used to be
00:17:10
Murr
hu
00:17:11
Tile
you know
00:17:26
pjasper
I wasn't tired, I wasn't satiated.
00:17:26
YEEERack
Mmhmm.
00:17:28
pjasper
It was like, it just, just, Like you said, I can just do this almost endlessly.
00:17:32
YEEERack
Mmhmm.
00:17:34
pjasper
I forget to eat, and you know it doesn't even matter.
00:17:37
Tile
doesn't even matter
00:17:37
pjasper
You didn't even give a shit, right?
00:17:39
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:17:39
pjasper
So that is such a good sign that that is like something that occupies your mind in such a glorious state of flow that you can do that thing for so many hours.
00:17:39
Tile
so
00:17:43
YEEERack
Mmhmm.
00:17:47
Tile
what
00:17:50
pjasper
I feel like you chose very wisely.
Economic Viability of Woodworking as a Career
00:17:52
pjasper
And you also brought up the next topic, which I think is the economics of it.
00:17:52
Tile
also
00:17:56
pjasper
You were talking about if like you know how much will I make? So can we talk, you know, if someone's thinking about making this change, there's the economics of it should be considered from the starting economics, Eric, which you brought up, what, what does that mean to start a new business and the sustainability economics?
00:18:00
Tile
so
00:18:05
Tile
economics
00:18:16
YEEERack
Well, before, before we touch that, I just kind of want to close the, the sentence from before the paragraph.
00:18:20
pjasper
Sure.
00:18:20
Tile
sure
00:18:20
pjasper
Go ahead.
00:18:21
Tile
you
00:18:23
YEEERack
Um, so if it is not a thing that you are not, that you don't have a compulsion to do. Like if you can do something else, you should do that because. the woodworking that we're talking about is essentially being an independent artist. That's not running a woodworking business. Those are two separate things running a production business and being an artist are two separate things. So if you can do anything else, go do that. Cause it's fucking hard to do this full time.
00:18:55
YEEERack
If you want to have a business mind, go ahead.
00:18:55
pjasper
well And that's the fact that this is hard as a full time is our fourth topic.
00:18:55
Tile
you
00:19:03
pjasper
So we're gonna cover that.
00:19:04
YEEERack
Okay. So what we'll get there, we'll get there.
00:19:04
pjasper
in Yeah, we're gonna cover that.
00:19:06
YEEERack
But if you do have a business mind and you're interested in growing business, I think there is opportunity there. That's not how my mind works. And I don't think that's how your minds work. So I want to clarify that that's where we're coming from. We're not coming from a business inward working standpoint. Uh, that said, yeah, there are, go ahead.
00:19:22
Murr
And also like, there are also different definitions of full time. Sorry, I didn't, I didn't mean that question, but I mean, there are different kinds of full time careers within this market.
00:19:28
YEEERack
Can you define it for me?
00:19:29
pjasper
Yeah.
00:19:36
Murr
So, oh my God, you guys, you know, like, are you going to be a furniture maker or a teacher or content creator or like a production company?
00:19:37
YEEERack
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but that's a fair point.
00:19:44
YEEERack
Or or a designer in a furniture shop, you know, like there's absolutely.
00:19:46
Murr
Yeah, exactly. So being able to identify your strengths and identify if you want to make that switch into that field is essential.
00:19:54
YEEERack
Yeah, the.
00:19:55
pjasper
And that's our sixth topic is the different paths you could take.
00:19:55
Tile
Thank
00:19:58
YEEERack
OK, all right, we'll get there, we'll get there.
00:19:58
pjasper
So, you know we we have like a ah really nice roadmap in front of us.
00:20:00
Murr
Okay.
00:20:02
Tile
you.
00:20:02
pjasper
So topic two, the economics of starting and sustaining as a full-time.
00:20:03
YEEERack
So the economic but economics, economics.
00:20:08
YEEERack
So the path that I took, which is by no means the only path, but I do think that it is the safest path was that I had a full-time job for a number of years as I was trying to figure it out. And that job shifted, right? Like I was a gymnastics coach. I was a woodshop teacher. I worked in cabinet shops. I was everything. and I always had my business going on in the background. I always made sure that I had a place to work. Now, that place was not always glorious. For a number of years, I was working in an unheated one-car garage with no windows, and in the winter, I would turn a propane heater on until I could not breathe and then opened up the garage door.
00:20:49
Murr
Oh my God.
00:20:50
YEEERack
I did not say it was a healthy choice, but it was the choice that needed to be made.
00:20:52
Murr
That is terrible. oh
00:20:55
Tile
Thank
00:20:55
YEEERack
Oh, yeah, no, I took I took at least two years off my life.
00:20:55
pjasper
Eric.
00:20:58
YEEERack
That's fine. um But but the point is this.
00:21:00
Murr
No space heaters? Like what?
00:21:02
YEEERack
Yeah, no, that was bad.
00:21:03
pjasper
A propane?
00:21:04
pjasper
Yeah.
00:21:04
YEEERack
I literally just took the oxygen out of the room and then opened up the door to let it back in.
00:21:04
Tile
you.
00:21:06
Murr
It makes it easier to get through the day.
00:21:08
YEEERack
and But hey,
00:21:12
YEEERack
Yeah, you know, you just get a little high. That's fine. So but but what that allowed me to do was to slowly develop my skill set over a number of years and to slowly build up the equipment that I was taking on. Right. I would do trades with people to get new equipment. ah You know, and by the time I moved into this shop after whatever it was, eight, nine years of doing that. Then I had enough equipment to start a shop and I didn't have to go into debt to open a business, which is a thing that so many people do coming out of school. They come out and they go, Oh my God, I want to be a woodworker. And then they dropped 30 grand on equipment. And then for the next, however many months or years, they're busy paying that off instead of having an income.
00:22:00
pjasper
All right, so you mentioned 30 grand on equipment.
00:22:02
Tile
thirty grand
00:22:04
pjasper
How much does it cost to get a basic woodshop started with like your basic machines? I get this question all the time.
00:22:10
Tile
i get this question all
00:22:10
Murr
hahaha
00:22:12
pjasper
What's your shop worth?
00:22:12
YEEERack
yeah
00:22:12
pjasper
How much money do you have in your shop?
00:22:15
YEEERack
depends on the the level of equipment you're going for. Like if you're if you're going contractor grade, you can probably do it for five grand.
00:22:22
pjasper
Okay, and what if you're doing pro prosumer?
00:22:22
YEEERack
If you if if you're if you're doing legitimate equipment.
00:22:23
Tile
and what if you're doing
00:22:28
YEEERack
I mean, I would, I would struggle to put it below 30 to 40 grand. Realistically. And that's for, that's for basics. That's not for luxury shit. That is just table saw, joiner, planer, dust collection. Uh, maybe some kind of repetitive machine, like a shaper origin or, or, uh, a low grade CNC or a laser cut or something like that. Like you're kind of basic eight to 10 pieces of equipment.
00:22:57
Tile
you
00:22:57
YEEERack
I mean, you're talking, you're talking 40 grand.
00:23:00
pjasper
Mary, how much have you put into your shop?
00:23:04
Murr
I'm in a very fortunate situation in which my shop mate is a full-time woodworker, so she has brought most of her equipment and she's bought most of the equipment.
00:23:06
YEEERack
Hahaha
00:23:14
Murr
I've brought in something, so I have a lot of like the smaller tools and a lot of the festival things. um I bought the like the bandsaw and you know storage organization, so I cannot speak to that because I am basically taking advantage of her. um
00:23:32
YEEERack
I mean, yeah that that makes it sound negative.
00:23:32
Murr
But yeah.
00:23:34
YEEERack
It was agreed upon.
00:23:36
Murr
It was agreed upon, yes.
00:23:36
YEEERack
yeah now i guess You're not manipulating the situation.
00:23:39
Murr
It was. No, no, no. where We both knew exactly what we were bringing to the table when we cut when we came into this agreement of we're going to be in the witch hub together.
00:23:45
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:23:48
Murr
We both were desperate to have our own space and we trust each other as ah people working in woodchops.
00:23:53
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:23:54
Murr
I think that was the biggest thing.
00:23:54
pjasper
Mm.
00:23:55
Murr
We were just so so tired of being in spaces where you couldn't trust the machines anymore. you couldn't make like you know Things were just left everywhere and just it was a nightmare.
00:24:02
YEEERack
Uh
00:24:06
Murr
So we both knew that coming in and we also know that if one of us moves out, then the other person. if My shop baby was out. I'm not gonna have much of a witch hop left, so I understand that I might need to figure something out then. If I leave, then she'll be missing certain things too, but not as much. So, yeah.
00:24:25
pjasper
ah Yeah, I would estimate my shop's probably worth 20 to 30k of equipment.
00:24:25
Tile
you
00:24:28
YEEERack
-huh.
00:24:31
pjasper
I bought almost all of it used. I highly recommend buying used machines because all machines have idiosyncrasies, even new ones have some idiosyncrasies.
00:24:33
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:24:35
Murr
Mm-hmm.
00:24:35
YEEERack
A hundred percent.
00:24:41
pjasper
And the sooner you learn your machines, the better you can just kind of get a feel for what their peculiarities are. And it doesn't matter if they're new or used. I got a 12 I remember I got a 12, like my joiner for example, it's a 12 inch joiner, helical head, grizzly, huge in feed and out feed table, 1300 bucks used from a cabinet shop who was upgrading.
00:24:51
Tile
my
00:24:59
Tile
Yes.
00:25:01
Murr
Oh, wow.
00:25:02
YEEERack
Yep. Yep.
00:25:03
pjasper
Yeah. Awesome. All day.
00:25:04
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:25:04
pjasper
Yes, please.
00:25:05
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:25:06
pjasper
and And is it perfect? Absolutely not. The beds are at max and they're not quite coplanar all the time, but they're coplanar enough that I can get away with it.
00:25:17
YEEERack
Yep.
00:25:17
pjasper
Like, so yeah, there's going to be some, some idiosyncrasies with every machine.
00:25:20
Murr
that
00:25:21
YEEERack
But that's the, that's the case. Like you said, with new machines as well.
00:25:24
pjasper
It is.
00:25:25
Murr
Yeah.
00:25:25
pjasper
It is.
00:25:25
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:25:25
Murr
And some of the older ones that are better quality anyway, like some of the newer ones are just not built
00:25:25
pjasper
So it is.
00:25:25
Tile
so
00:25:28
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:25:29
Tile
you
00:25:31
pjasper
It is.
00:25:31
Murr
to the same standard.
00:25:31
YEEERack
Yep.
00:25:32
pjasper
So for those who don't mind understanding the machines and working through the idiosyncrasies, like any good relationship, I recommend you i recommend you ah buying used.
00:25:39
YEEERack
this is
00:25:43
pjasper
You'll get a lot more for your money. And the second ah cost is is wood. I actually have, I would say, $5,000 to $8,000 worth of wood that I bought.
00:25:54
YEEERack
I'm probably somewhere in that same range. Yeah.
00:25:56
Murr
Oh my god, I cannot relate to that, but well, Hmm, now I think about it.
00:26:01
YEEERack
I mean, also in fairness, I have. 12, 14 years of material that I've essentially been collecting.
00:26:08
Murr
Yes.
00:26:08
Tile
you
00:26:09
YEEERack
And then what I'm always intentional about doing, this is how that happens, right? Because you don't just go, oh, great, I've got an extra eight grand lying around. You know what I should do? Should make a run to Hearn. um
00:26:19
pjasper
No, it's a little bit at a time.
00:26:21
YEEERack
yeah Right. And so every project, number one, when you're pricing out a project for materials, you always count ten into 20% dead, right?
00:26:21
Murr
Yeah.
00:26:23
pjasper
Yeah.
00:26:29
YEEERack
So you just build that in. And then hopefully, sometimes you get a little bit extra. But also what happens is sometimes you see the right piece of material, like you get a fletch, you get a handful of pieces of material that works for the project, but then you end up using 50% of it. So you build it up that way over the years. And then when stuff runs out, you replace it. And then next thing you know, you've got a large collection.
00:26:53
Murr
Yeah, I could easily see i that happening. i'm I'm realizing now that I'm not in that situation, because I was always in a shared shop where I had to pay for storage.
00:27:01
YEEERack
Yep.
00:27:02
Murr
And if I had any scrap pieces, I was like, Oh, no, I can't, I can't like leave this year, it's gonna cost me money.
00:27:04
YEEERack
Yep.
00:27:08
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:27:08
Murr
So I always try to like burn through it or, you know, sell it or give it away.
00:27:14
pjasper
So that's about the the starting costs.
00:27:14
Tile
you
00:27:17
pjasper
How about the running and sustaining costs? Eric, can you give me an example of like a new woodworker who goes full time and who's making a product, right? What do you think the first few years are going to look like in terms of income typically? I know it's i know there's a huge variability, but can you give give me a ballpark?
00:27:36
YEEERack
there Yeah, there's a massive variability. As far as the income to the business versus the the individual.
00:27:42
pjasper
Like, like, yeah, the individual, like, how much do you think an individual would make their first few years?
00:27:44
Tile
yeah
00:27:48
Tile
you
00:27:49
YEEERack
um
00:27:51
pjasper
Typically.
00:27:52
YEEERack
Sub 10 to 20.
00:27:54
pjasper
Wow, that little.
00:27:56
YEEERack
That would be my guess.
00:27:56
pjasper
Oh, I thought it was more than that.
00:27:58
YEEERack
No, no.
00:27:58
pjasper
Okay.
00:27:59
YEEERack
Well, and again, this is coming from ah a small business like one to two person shop. In this case, if they're starting out one person shop, like yeah you don't come out of the gate. There's I should say there's very, very few people who come out of the gate hot and become desirable names off the jump. Like that's like Derek Jeter coming up through the miners in 96.
00:28:19
pjasper
Mm.
00:28:19
Tile
you
00:28:23
YEEERack
Like it just that's a rare thing that happens. Nobody does that.
00:28:25
Murr
But what if they've already established themselves as a hobbyist in that world?
00:28:29
YEEERack
Well, and that's the difference. And so, so that is the difference. This is what I mean by the, the advantage that I had was having that full-time job and building up a client base while I was doing that. I think the first year that, um, I went full-time again, I think I did 50, I want to say, um,
00:28:45
pjasper
Yeah, Eric. Yeah, I think that's it.
00:28:47
Tile
yeah that
00:28:48
pjasper
I think with an established clientele as a first year, like that's established, right?
00:28:49
Tile
think with
00:28:52
Tile
yeah
00:28:54
pjasper
You already did the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:54
YEEERack
but But that was five years in the making though, right?
00:28:57
Tile
Yeah.
00:28:57
YEEERack
So that's not that's not coming out of school or just like deciding one day I'm gonna quit my job and be a woodworker.
00:29:03
pjasper
Yeah.
00:29:04
YEEERack
That's building up clients and business relationships in the content world and all of those things and some respectability to the point where I could come out and do 50. And let me tell you guys, that was the biggest hustle of my life. Like that that was 50 that I fucking scrapped for.
00:29:21
pjasper
Wow.
00:29:22
YEEERack
Uh, so like it's not, it it takes a long time to set up a business flow.
00:29:27
pjasper
Yeah.
00:29:30
pjasper
It doesn't come easy. Now, Mary, you and I have the economics of a tech or a science degree, uh, to bounce against that reality of say, you know, Oh, Paul, we need to go full time.
00:29:32
YEEERack
No.
00:29:32
Tile
and i have the
00:29:38
Tile
down
00:29:41
Tile
oh
00:29:43
pjasper
Mary, we need to go full time.
00:29:44
YEEERack
Mm-hmm.
00:29:45
pjasper
And it's like, if you take those economics versus a design degree, like you have it, you know, Adobe or, or I have in science, I mean, the economics of those types of degrees are very, very different animals.
00:29:45
Murr
Oh, yeah.
00:29:47
Tile
you those
00:29:58
Murr
Oh, yeah, the the amount of times that Eric makes fun of me for liking to go to nice restaurants.
00:30:03
YEEERack
Being a bougie bitch.
00:30:06
Murr
There is no way I could support my lifestyle being a full-time woodworker.
00:30:06
YEEERack
Mm-hmm.
00:30:11
Murr
I would I
00:30:11
pjasper
Yeah.
00:30:13
Murr
I like making money and I went to school for so long for it so I do not want to get rid of that.
00:30:17
Tile
you
00:30:21
pjasper
Yeah, I know talking about money is taboo, but as I said, this is the podcast that doesn't give a shit about convention. And so, we you know, we talk about
00:30:27
YEEERack
Well, and and also in fairness, I don't mean to cut you off. But in fairness, one of the most valuable things about the maker community is that we're very open about money. And that makes everybody feel more at ease. And you know, nobody's trying to hide shit.
00:30:38
pjasper
Yeah. ah So so the absolutely, Eric. that's And I think that's brilliant. The point Mary and I as hobbyists are are speaking to is you have a choice of two things you love.
00:30:46
Tile
obviously how
00:30:52
pjasper
yeah One of which has a much more ah attainable, like, in or is is much more, how do you say this?
00:30:52
Tile
yeah wonderful the more
00:30:57
Tile
or or
00:31:01
pjasper
Gosh, I'm i'm struggling for the words.
00:31:04
Tile
one
00:31:04
pjasper
One pays better than the other. Let's just, do you know, one pays better than the other, quite frankly, typically, and not in every case, right?
00:31:07
YEEERack
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:07
Murr
hahaha
00:31:08
Tile
that
00:31:12
pjasper
So, you know, you love these two things.
00:31:12
Tile
so you love
00:31:15
pjasper
You know, I think you owe it to yourself to think about the economics of the two things you love and what does it make sense to do full time and what does it make sense to do as a hobby.
00:31:18
Tile
um she was
00:31:24
pjasper
And and so I think for for me and Mary, that decision was fairly easy for the two of us.
00:31:25
Tile
think mean married
00:31:30
YEEERack
I think the advantage that you two have, I've sat with this for a number of years, and the the the conclusion that I've come to, and please push back on me if you think that I'm wrong or if you have differing opinions on this, the economics of any situation typically works out that the people who think get paid more than the people
Hobbies vs. Full-Time Professions
00:31:50
YEEERack
who do. I think that's just generally how it works.
00:31:52
pjasper
I hate that. I hate that.
00:31:54
YEEERack
And, and, but, but that doesn't mean that the people who do can't be great thinkers. So what happens is your professions are typically seen as thinking professions, whereas my profession is seen as a doing profession, but, but
00:32:09
pjasper
I hate that.
00:32:09
Tile
i hate
00:32:10
pjasper
But I can't say or that the data doesn't support what you're saying.
00:32:12
Murr
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
00:32:14
YEEERack
Right, right. But how many people do both of you work with who don't have any fucking original ideas who just do the thing that you tell them to do? And I bet in your social hierarchy, nobody takes them very seriously. They just get paid kind of the economic wage, ah you know, the standard of where it exists. Whereas in in my world, the people who
00:32:31
pjasper
Can I tell you?
00:32:31
Tile
you
00:32:35
YEEERack
can take what they're doing and think and apply it differently. It doesn't matter what you're building, right? You could be building furniture, you could be making art, you could be building houses. The people who are really good at problem solving and creating new solutions do end up typically making a good living.
00:32:50
pjasper
Do you know what I hate about? and No, you're right. ah Eric, that is my experience too. What I hate about that is the doing is so hard also.
00:33:00
YEEERack
Mm-hmm.
00:33:01
pjasper
like The thinking is it can be difficult. at times you know I guess I gravitate more towards that part, but the that doing, the physicality of and the the sheer exhaustion and perseverance is so hard.
00:33:15
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:33:16
pjasper
And it's to think that that's not valued as much because I do both.
00:33:17
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:33:19
Tile
wow both
00:33:22
pjasper
like I do you know like let's let ah hate these terms, but like we're thinking during the day.
00:33:22
Tile
agree
00:33:28
pjasper
i hate i just I don't know.
00:33:28
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:33:29
pjasper
It makes me skin and crawl.
00:33:30
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:33:30
pjasper
I hate to say that because as we're wordworking, we're thinking too. But yes, the the sort of ivory tower, you're thinking during the day and then at night, you're wordworking.
00:33:34
Tile
yeah
00:33:39
pjasper
and they're both equally taxing, they're equally exhausting for different reasons, but for some reason they seem to be valued differently. Now, all right, so can can we stick a pin in this? Because I feel like this is this is like, yeah.
00:33:50
YEEERack
Okay, all right, because this is a good conversation, but but we're gonna go off down some fucking rabbit holes right now.
00:33:52
pjasper
yeah
00:33:55
pjasper
Okay, okay, so the third piece, like I want to stick a pin in the in the in economics because like I think there's a whole episode here.
00:33:55
Tile
okay okay
00:34:04
Tile
you
00:34:04
pjasper
I hope everyone's not all hot and bothered to keep going on that run. um Is it okay to have a job and be a hobbyist? I feel like there's some inertia that says, you're less if you're a hobbyist, you're not that serious.
00:34:21
Murr
are fighting words.
00:34:25
Murr
I mean, I feel
00:34:25
YEEERack
paul Paul likes to piss people off.
00:34:29
Murr
very strongly about like hobbies being important to who you are as a person. Like for me, that's how I I don't know. That's why I think it rounds me out. i I very much enjoy keeping woodworking as a hobby. Well, I guess my question for you, Paul, is like, what makes you ask that question? What's the argument behind it?
00:34:51
pjasper
I feel like there's some inertia that the word hobby has this, this attachment to it that it's like, it's not that serious.
00:34:52
Tile
feel like they's word
00:34:59
Murr
Hmm.
00:35:01
pjasper
You're not that serious about it.
00:35:01
YEEERack
Well, I think serious is a critical word there, because i'm I'm wondering about the history of the word hobby, right? Like the entomology. Etymology? Etymology. Not entomology. Entomology is the study of bugs, is it not?
00:35:14
Murr
Bugs, yep.
00:35:14
pjasper
That's right.
00:35:14
Tile
That's right.
00:35:14
YEEERack
ah The etymology of it.
00:35:18
YEEERack
So yeah i'm i'm I'm thinking specifically about like the gentleman's saw, right? The gent's saw. So I think the word hobby came about after this, the invention of leisure, right? Like the the working the nine to five job and you have spare time. And that then implies that you have income and time to spend on a hobby. And therefore by definition, you're not taking it very seriously because it's a leisurely activity.
00:35:47
pjasper
i have the etymology
00:35:47
Tile
you
00:35:49
pjasper
if you would care
00:35:49
YEEERack
Okay, go on, please. tell me that tellm me Tell me the entomology. If you could define hobby for me, please.
00:35:55
pjasper
in the third
00:35:56
Murr
Was he right? Was Eric right?
00:36:00
pjasper
In the 13th century, the word hobby referred to a small horse or a pony. It later came to describe yeah and later came to describe a toy horse or a hobby horse.
00:36:06
Murr
What?
00:36:12
YEEERack
Mmm.
00:36:12
pjasper
It's from the hobby horse that the words modern sense of favorite pastime evolve.
00:36:12
Murr
oh
00:36:17
pjasper
A hobby is something that you do for fun, not money.
Misconceptions About Hobbyists
00:36:21
pjasper
And you typically do it fairly regularly.
00:36:24
Murr
Wait, i don't and how does it relate to the horse part?
00:36:24
Tile
so five
00:36:27
YEEERack
A hobby horse?
00:36:27
Tile
ah
00:36:27
pjasper
hobby horse.
00:36:27
pjasper
It was a hobby horse and then it turned into a hobby.
00:36:30
YEEERack
A hobby horse is a shitty tiny horse.
00:36:30
pjasper
Like a hobby horse is like a, yeah, like it's a toy horse.
00:36:33
Tile
yeah
00:36:36
Murr
Okay.
00:36:37
YEEERack
The one time we actually give her a definition and she's confused.
00:36:38
Tile
its good
00:36:40
pjasper
Oh my God. Yeah.
00:36:41
Tile
for those that don't know mary
00:36:41
pjasper
For those that don't know, Mary asked for us to define shit every goddamn episode. I don't know why, but anyway,
00:36:47
Murr
I'm just saying, I like being clear.
00:36:47
Tile
but
00:36:49
pjasper
Okay, being clear, back on topic then.
00:36:50
Tile
there topic
00:36:52
pjasper
So the the issue is, I think a lot of people, there's this inertia or this this this feeling that if you say, I'm a hobbyist, you're not good and you're not serious.
00:36:53
Murr
Okay.
00:36:54
Tile
think the nurser that
00:37:00
Tile
But it is good.
00:37:04
pjasper
And I don't know that that's the case.
00:37:04
Tile
i go
00:37:07
pjasper
is You can be a hobbyist and you can be very serious and you can be quite good.
00:37:09
Tile
you
00:37:12
pjasper
And they I feel like it shouldn't be a bad word like it is.
00:37:16
YEEERack
I agree with you, it shouldn't be a bad word because some of the best woodworkers I know are hobbyists. I wonder how much of that kind of snootiness is linked to our innate Western capitalistic intentions of if you are good, you should do it for profit. It should drive you to grow versus just being good for good sake.
00:37:36
pjasper
Mm-hmm.
00:37:41
YEEERack
Because if you're if you are a hobbyist who then makes money doing it, you're still a hobbyist, but almost every single person to a T and I was just as guilty of this as anybody
Instagram and Validation
00:37:51
YEEERack
else says, I'm a semi professional.
00:37:51
pjasper
Mm.
00:37:54
YEEERack
Right, like there's there is a hierarchy of if I'm good enough to make money, then I'm no longer a hobbyist.
00:37:54
Tile
you
00:37:57
pjasper
Oh.
00:38:00
YEEERack
Hobbyist has that ink that, you know, there's something about it that says like, ah, I'm just learning.
00:38:02
Murr
Hmm.
00:38:02
pjasper
Hmm.
00:38:06
Murr
I could see that. I mean, I feel like I wonder if that, uh, meeting for hobbyist is also maybe an older way of thinking because these days you can back up your work so easily by showing, you know, like your Instagram or portfolio or whatever, even if you're a hobbyist, like, Oh yeah, no, I'm good because you can like, I can prove it real quick to you. Like, I don't know, I just don't know if people think that way anymore.
00:38:36
YEEERack
Well also, can i can I risk being a dick real quick?
00:38:41
pjasper
Oh, I mean, of course on this podcast, Eric, Eric on this podcast.
00:38:41
Tile
oh
00:38:41
Murr
Okay.
00:38:42
Tile
i mean
00:38:43
Murr
I mean, that's just, that that's just, I feel like that's every podcast for you.
00:38:45
Tile
this
00:38:47
YEEERack
There is.
00:38:49
YEEERack
I mean, that's how I live my life. ah There is there is no telltale sign more clear that a person is seeking validation in their work than when they take their phone out and they say, let me show you an image of it, you know, because it is a thing that says, like, I don't believe
00:39:04
Murr
Okay, fair, yes.
00:39:10
YEEERack
that I am considered like an amateur, a seasoned hobbyist, whatever.
00:39:12
Murr
ah
00:39:15
YEEERack
So I need to then prove it versus at some point. And I think we all get to this point over years and projects where we just go, yeah, no, I make shit. I guess I don't give a shit if you believe me. Like I so i still make shit.
00:39:27
Murr
Okay, I should clarify it not coming from you, I guess, but your work is so easily you can your work can be looked like researched upon from other people who want to know your work and they may not realize that you're a hobbyist. So they might be like, Oh, yeah, I know, like hopper pick stuff and and not even realize that Paul is not a full time woodworker. I feel like that is so much easier for people to look up these days than having to like rely by rely on like I don't know, word of, I don't know, just hearing it from other people.
00:40:04
YEEERack
It's fair?
00:40:05
pjasper
Um, well, Eric, because you're being a dick, I would like to, to give a counterpoint, ah which is I just, I, I give a talk recently on design at North Bennett street school and and Lexington arts council in, in Lexington mass.
00:40:08
Tile
would like No,
00:40:12
YEEERack
Okay.
00:40:20
YEEERack
Humble brag.
00:40:20
pjasper
And no, no, bitch. No, no, no. I just wanted to say where, no, I just wanted to mention where I was giving the talk.
00:40:26
Tile
just
00:40:27
YEEERack
I'm very proud of you, buddy.
00:40:27
Tile
yeah
00:40:28
YEEERack
I just wanted to shit on you.
00:40:28
Tile
know
00:40:31
pjasper
Dick. Um,
00:40:34
YEEERack
Hmmm.
00:40:35
Tile
no.
00:40:36
pjasper
But what I did at the talk is I started it by encouraging people to show each other their Instagrams.
00:40:36
Tile
but
00:40:43
pjasper
Stop being so goddamn like, oh, I'm too cool for school. yeah You know, I don't have to show you anything. I'm like, let's be vulnerable.
00:40:50
Tile
like let's on let go
00:40:52
pjasper
Let's show each other what we're working on. Let's talk about collaborating. Let's show each other our work and talk about designs.
00:40:56
Tile
you
00:40:59
pjasper
So actually I go the opposite way. I encourage them to take out their phones and show each other what they're working on because that is the genesis of collaborations and talking about stuff.
00:41:11
YEEERack
It's a fair counterpoint. And I think there is I don't I'm not trying to be an asshole.
00:41:12
pjasper
Thank you.
00:41:16
YEEERack
It was just a funny thing that popped into my head because because it is it seems it's so naturally, you know, grew up in an Italian New York household.
00:41:19
Murr
it just comes so instinctually
00:41:24
pjasper
Okay.
00:41:24
Tile
okay
00:41:26
YEEERack
What do you want?
00:41:26
pjasper
Okay.
00:41:26
Tile
okay
00:41:27
YEEERack
um
00:41:27
pjasper
and So next topic, next topic. So hobbyist is not a bad word, right?
Challenges of Full-Time Creative Pursuits
00:41:34
pjasper
Okay.
00:41:34
YEEERack
It is not.
00:41:34
pjasper
So the next topic is, so let's say you do want to go full time. Full time is hard.
00:41:41
Murr
It just comes so
00:41:44
pjasper
Let's talk about that. Let's start by all the reasons that being full time is difficult and a challenge.
00:41:46
Tile
by all the evening
00:41:48
Murr
instinctually.
00:41:48
Tile
being full
00:41:50
pjasper
And like, but not not to dissuade you from going full time, but let's talk about some of the challenges. Number one, creativity on demand.
00:41:56
Tile
one
00:41:59
pjasper
Like that's tough, right?
00:42:01
Murr
Mm hmm.
00:42:01
pjasper
Eric, you you spoke recently how, you know, you've been so under the gun, the burnout, the pressure of producing all the time, producing videos, producing pieces.
00:42:06
Tile
john burn out
00:42:12
pjasper
Creativity on demand is very draining.
00:42:16
YEEERack
It is draining. um And there are times where you just have to get it done and it becomes a muscle memory thing. It's like doing any, like I'm sure you can science without thinking.
00:42:28
pjasper
Okay.
00:42:29
YEEERack
That's a thing. and Sciences have ever been this.
00:42:30
pjasper
Well, no, no, you just get good at the thing, right?
00:42:30
Tile
no
00:42:32
YEEERack
You know, yeah, you get good at the thing.
00:42:32
pjasper
Yeah.
00:42:33
YEEERack
And like you can marry, I'm sure you can lay out a webpage on demand.
00:42:38
Murr
Sure.
00:42:39
YEEERack
That's a thing that you do, right?
00:42:41
pjasper
Mary's not a web designer.
00:42:42
Tile
you
00:42:42
YEEERack
i don't know I don't know what the fuck she does. She just says, I'm a UX all the time. I'm like, what's that, a UTI?
00:42:47
Murr
Oh my god!
00:42:48
YEEERack
I don't know what the fuck. ah so So there, you you develop these skillsets that you can rely on, but what ends up happening is if you want to continue to push yourself and grow, then you end up um frustrated in, in kind of the loop of a client wants it by this date. And here's how I know to resolve that problem.
00:43:10
pjasper
Yeah.
00:43:12
YEEERack
So I'm going to resolve it in a very similar way.
00:43:14
pjasper
And Eric, you talked about that.
00:43:15
Tile
eric you talked about that you're like i know
00:43:16
pjasper
You're like, I know, like I relied on my typical book of tricks that I know pleases people, but it's not challenging me.
00:43:17
Tile
like i relied on
00:43:21
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:43:22
pjasper
So like, there's that, there's that personal fulfillment versus like just satisfying the customer to get the job done on time.
00:43:23
Tile
like there's
00:43:23
YEEERack
yeah
00:43:28
pjasper
Right. Uh, another, another, uh, uh, is another issue is the repetition of it.
00:43:29
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:43:36
pjasper
Sorry. I had some whiskey. Uh,
00:43:38
YEEERack
Really struggled on that one.
00:43:39
pjasper
I did, I did, I had two huge glasses of whiskey.
00:43:39
Tile
did
00:43:40
Murr
How many drinks have we had here?
00:43:44
pjasper
another another Another issue is repetition. Does repetition steal your creative spark?
00:43:52
YEEERack
For me it does, but for some people, and I know we've touched on this in the past, for some people they thrive under repetition. Like some people are repetition artists and they do their best work kind of tweaking things here and there and developing through iteration.
00:43:59
Murr
yeah
00:43:59
Tile
you
00:44:02
pjasper
Yeah.
00:44:08
pjasper
Yeah.
00:44:08
YEEERack
And that's okay. Like they're there. One is not better than the other.
00:44:12
pjasper
Yeah, that's true.
00:44:12
Murr
Yeah, and also production, people who do production, that's so much repetition, but at that point, it's just a level that you're used to, and that's all you want to do.
00:44:17
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:44:22
YEEERack
yeah
00:44:22
pjasper
I think of bowl turners for some reason.
00:44:22
Tile
the
00:44:24
pjasper
They seem always to be like production, his production mindset.
00:44:26
YEEERack
yep
00:44:29
pjasper
Although I do want to recall, and I know I mentioned this in a previous episode, and and Eric, you said this, that sometimes like design ideas come through that repetition when your mind is not completely occupied.
00:44:29
Tile
although i do want
00:44:37
Tile
that
00:44:39
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:44:39
Tile
you
00:44:39
YEEERack
yeah
00:44:41
pjasper
You've done it a thousand times. so You have a little brain bit of brainwaves open to think about your next design idea.
00:44:45
Tile
thousand
00:44:47
pjasper
um
00:44:47
Tile
you
00:44:47
YEEERack
I believe you said those thoughts come when you're washing your ball sack, if I remember correctly.
00:44:47
Murr
Mm hmm.
00:44:51
pjasper
That's exactly, yes, yes, in fact, in fact, in fact, I did not use any of those words, you prick.
00:44:52
Murr
Dear God.
00:44:57
Murr
I think he said in the shower.
00:44:58
pjasper
ah I did say shower.
00:44:59
YEEERack
I'm pretty sure he said when you're washing your sack.
00:45:02
pjasper
I did not say wash, I said washing your junk.
00:45:05
Murr
Oh, my God.
00:45:05
YEEERack
Okay, all right. Six and one half dozen the other.
00:45:08
pjasper
Okay. Okay. Next is the idea of hustle and burnout. Eric, you've spoken to that recently because you're, you're so in, you've put so much into this business and you just don't want it
00:45:16
YEEERack
Yup.
00:45:17
Tile
so
00:45:20
Tile
so
Burnout and Financial Insecurity
00:45:21
pjasper
to fail.
00:45:21
pjasper
So you're willing to hustle burnout. You work too much. Um, and I think we know that working too much, Mary is related to our happiness.
00:45:26
YEEERack
Well,
00:45:26
Tile
know
00:45:29
YEEERack
Hmm That's the kind of honest truth you come to this podcast for right there I Think I think in unsung or or not off disgust I should say ah part of that is um Money insecurity
00:45:31
Murr
yeah What? I don't know what we you're talking about. I'm always happy and never wear too much every of my life.
00:45:34
Tile
you
00:45:37
Murr
but
00:45:57
pjasper
Mmm.
00:45:57
YEEERack
Right? So when you have a job, you go to that job, presumably 40 hours a week, or in Mary's case, 107 hours a week.
00:46:06
Murr
hahahaha
00:46:07
Tile
you
00:46:07
YEEERack
And you, you know, you're either salaried or you're going to get overtime.
00:46:12
YEEERack
Like what, you know, that your paycheck is going to clear, right? And you know what you're going to get paid roughly. When you run a business, you know what you're going to get paid for the next couple of weeks. And then after that. Like you just, you have that thing for me, particularly who didn't come from money. And I think most people ah who are running a small business have some, some iteration of this. You have this thing of just like, well, what if I don't get the next job? And then, then you hustle and then you take on more than you can chew. And then next thing you know, you're buried under work and you burn out. And so it's, it's a really hard thing to accept the.
00:46:49
YEEERack
hope that you have done enough to have your business run and not overbook yourself. Cause I think that like for me specifically, that's where my burnout always comes from is I just go, yeah, I have to say yes, because what if nobody else calls me up and what if it all just fucking stops after that one? And then next thing you know, I've got six months to make four projects plus all of these contracts for content. And I'm like, I can't fucking do it all. I'm just, I can't.
00:47:17
Murr
Okay, question. At what point would it, at what point now, like how long would you have to have not worked or produced content for you to have to take another like pottery barn job?
00:47:29
pjasper
Pottery Barn.
00:47:30
YEEERack
um
00:47:30
pjasper
Did you work at Pottery Barn?
00:47:31
YEEERack
ri I did not, but I like this idea.
00:47:32
Murr
No, you did a replica, right? You did like a replica of a pottery barn table.
00:47:35
YEEERack
Oh, that one okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right, all right, all right.
00:47:37
pjasper
Uh...
00:47:39
YEEERack
That's fair, that's fair. I was like, did I work at Pottery Barn? ah
00:47:43
Murr
but Do I know you better?
00:47:44
YEEERack
You might. um it ah So I have about six to eight months um that I could live off of. Uh, so, and that's, that's, that's very good for, for what I'm doing. Like I'm very happy with that. And there's no indication that anything would slow to that point. Um, and I know that I could, I'm marketable enough to be able to find a job in that time, if that were to happen. Um, which I think now I'm finally realizing, okay, I need to stop hustling so goddamn much and figure out.
00:48:20
YEEERack
In what direction do I want to take the momentum of the business for the long term?
Paths to Full-Time Woodworking
00:48:25
pjasper
You were doing too much, big guy. You were burnt out.
00:48:27
YEEERack
I was doing too much. I was.
00:48:29
pjasper
I could tell.
00:48:29
Murr
Just throw on another TV show, it's fine.
00:48:33
YEEERack
You know, like sometimes you just gotta, you just gotta to wait till the CW calls, you know?
00:48:37
pjasper
So, so actually we're dancing around our last topic, which is what are the different paths to full time?
00:48:38
Tile
so Thank
00:48:44
pjasper
You know, you're talking about Eric does shows. Well, Eric, wait, time out, time out, time out.
00:48:50
Murr
It hurt us a lot.
00:48:50
Tile
you.
00:48:52
pjasper
eric Eric is not a typical example.
00:48:54
Murr
That is very true, yes.
00:48:54
pjasper
I think eric is is in so Eric just shut up for a minute.
00:48:56
YEEERack
that's That's fair.
00:49:00
pjasper
Eric is insanely talented. he's like And I've said this to him many times face to face. he's capable He does so many things so well.
00:49:06
Tile
so so
00:49:08
pjasper
He can do them. He can do the carpenter. He can do the fine trim guy. He can do the art, you know, one of a kind guy.
00:49:15
Tile
well
00:49:16
pjasper
He can be the life of the party.
00:49:17
Tile
people like
00:49:18
pjasper
He can fade to the background. He can do the show.
00:49:21
Tile
show
00:49:21
pjasper
He can be the content creator.
00:49:22
Tile
thank
00:49:23
pjasper
Like Eric is extremely versatile, one of the most versatile humans.
00:49:23
Tile
eric
00:49:29
pjasper
I know certainly in the woodworking space without a doubt.
00:49:29
Tile
i know
00:49:31
pjasper
So Eric has, ah to to me, a plethora of opportunities at his fingertips due to his natural aptitudes. And Eric, you're just going to shut up and listen to me praise you. Okay. So with that speaking, though, what you know what are the many different paths one can take towards woodworking?
00:49:45
Tile
what are
00:49:49
pjasper
So obviously, the first one that I'll throw out there is like, I like to make furniture, I want commissions, and I just want to make furniture.
00:49:50
Tile
so they like
00:49:58
pjasper
Now, I only know a few people who can make a living at that.
00:50:01
Tile
Thank
00:50:01
pjasper
Just purely that.
00:50:01
Murr
Yeah. I was gonna say, I've talked to Keith about this and his answer is always the same. It's always like, you gotta do something else on the side. Otherwise you're really going to struggle.
00:50:10
Tile
you.
00:50:10
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:50:11
Murr
Like these days, it is so hard to solely be a furniture maker.
00:50:12
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:50:15
Murr
Like you can do teaching on the side or conduct creation or something else. Like it is so hard.
00:50:21
YEEERack
I don't think it's just these days. I think it's always been that way.
00:50:23
Murr
Okay, fair.
00:50:24
YEEERack
I think now now this is this is me because we always look back on the end of the careers of the people who came before us.
00:50:25
Murr
Yeah.
00:50:33
YEEERack
And we think of the Nakashimas, the Maloofs, the the Krenovs, et cetera, et cetera. But Nakashima, for 50 fucking years, was hustling as a farmer, as a carpenter. He was an architect. He didn't just do furniture. And it was the same with Maloof. He was out there doing a hundred things until at some point late in his career, his rocking chair became well known enough to carry his business.
00:51:00
pjasper
Good point.
00:51:00
Tile
you
00:51:00
YEEERack
And so I think it's always been, and even now, the people that we look back on 20 years ago who were doing this, they were writing for fine woodworking, they were teaching in schools, and that's how they became known as furniture makers.
00:51:11
Murr
Uh
00:51:14
YEEERack
So I don't think there's ever been a path to being a furniture maker exclusively if you don't want to live under the poverty line.
00:51:15
Murr
-huh.
00:51:22
YEEERack
I just don't think that that that exists.
00:51:22
Murr
Mm-hm.
00:51:22
pjasper
so So, no, that's a great point.
00:51:25
Tile
great
00:51:26
pjasper
Excellent. And and backed up by a lot of evidence ah from other famous you know woodworkers and their careers.
00:51:27
Tile
and back at by
00:51:33
pjasper
What are some of the other things you can do to supplement?
00:51:33
Tile
are some
00:51:35
Murr
Mm
00:51:35
pjasper
Obviously, teaching is a great one, right?
00:51:37
YEEERack
Teaching is a huge one to every.
00:51:38
pjasper
Because there's always there's always people hungry to learn, right?
00:51:38
Murr
-hm.
00:51:42
YEEERack
Mm-hmm. Every single full-time woodworker that I know. I shouldn't say that 95% of the full-time woodworkers that I know are also teachers, whether it's once or twice a year, or a lot of them who are known as furniture makers, essentially travel and teach full-time at this point.
00:51:54
pjasper
Yeah.
00:52:02
YEEERack
And they just make a couple of commissions a year. So that is a vibe. And there's a lot of craft schools out there. And once you get into the craft school circuit, like you can but yeah I'll just take Farazuti as an example, because he's a buddy of mine. And I talk about him often enough. I mean, he goes from College of the Redwoods, Mark Adams, CFC, Florida School of Woodworking, Rose, Rosewood, whatever the one in Toronto is, like he just basically circles
00:52:24
Murr
Mm hmm.
00:52:30
YEEERack
Five to eight craft schools and then makes things in between and teaches it all of them once to twice a year So if you're if you're doing eight craft schools twice a year Some of them are one week. Some of them are two weeks. That's three quarters of the year already You know, like it's just That's how you sustain yourself
00:52:44
Tile
you
00:52:49
pjasper
So ah there's two types of teaching, I think. So for the full timers, they're doing as a source of income. For the hobbyists, at least I'm going to speak from my point of view, I teach not for the income. The income is, it's it's great and all. That's fine. But I don't need the income.
Teaching and Giving Back
00:53:04
pjasper
I have a full-time job. I do it because I feel strongly that if we if we who have been in the field at least like i you know I'm in the field 20 years now, if I don't start to give back, even though I don't feel qualified to give back sometimes, like I don't feel like a master of anything to be honest.
00:53:20
pjasper
But look, if we don't start giving back,
00:53:20
Tile
you
00:53:24
pjasper
Who's going to? like We're the ones who are supposed to start giving back. So like i do I do at least you know one teaching or one like presentation or whatever from time to time because I feel like the field has given me so much. I need to return it to the field because it is part of just keeping the whole thing healthy.
00:53:39
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:53:45
pjasper
So I think even full-time people have their reasons for teaching. Even hobbyists, I think, can have their reasons for teaching. and
00:53:51
YEEERack
I will go ahead. Sorry.
00:53:54
pjasper
Go ahead, go
00:53:54
Tile
now
00:53:55
YEEERack
Uh, I'll be honest, teaching is not the most like I do teach for the money. Like I have to, I gotta pay bills. I could make more money not teaching, but I like teaching is, it brings me so much joy that it's worth taking the pay cut to go teach then to make content or commissions because it's just like I took a week and a half off.
00:54:19
Tile
Go ahead now.
00:54:20
YEEERack
I was in Vermont and then I was in Maine and then I went and did some camping. And I came back and I was talking to to my girlfriend on the phone the other day. She's like, you just seem lighter. Like I just I teaching is so much fucking fun to get to spend time with people who are striving to learn because for what it does for me is it reminds me of where I was 10, 12 years ago, right?
00:54:38
pjasper
yeah
00:54:41
pjasper
Yes.
00:54:41
Tile
you
00:54:42
pjasper
Yes.
00:54:43
YEEERack
And it it ignites that you will never get that same amount of joy from making the first piece that you ever made ever again.
00:54:47
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:50
YEEERack
And the way that you get that is by experiencing it with other people who make that first piece for the first time.
00:54:54
pjasper
Yes. and a yeah like Passion by proxy, right? you you You feel it through them.
00:54:58
YEEERack
Yes.
00:55:00
pjasper
Yeah. so That's great, Eric. and um'm um I think it's awesome you do that. and It actually speaks to the concept of enough. Do you have enough money to have a good life?
00:55:09
YEEERack
Hmm.
00:55:11
pjasper
Then stop prioritizing solely money and prioritize things that bring you joy in addition to money.
00:55:15
YEEERack
Mm hmm.
00:55:18
pjasper
It might not be as much money as you might have made otherwise, but joy is an important component of living a well-rounded life. I think that's really what you're saying.
00:55:25
YEEERack
100%
00:55:26
pjasper
And I i i respect that and I admire that in you.
00:55:26
Tile
and
00:55:30
pjasper
um last Last issue about the different
00:55:31
Tile
you
Content Creation and Social Media's Role
00:55:34
pjasper
paths.
00:55:34
pjasper
So we've talked about teaching and full-time. What about social media and content creation as a new path?
00:55:44
YEEERack
It is if you can do it thoughtfully and if you can get lucky
00:55:50
Murr
Mm-hm.
00:55:53
YEEERack
it is the most lucrative path, at least at this moment.
00:55:56
pjasper
Mm.
00:55:57
YEEERack
I don't know how long that will last. It could be the new television. All of the data is pointing to the fact that it is the new television, so it could be around for a long while, or it could be a bubble. I have no idea. But if you can figure out a way The best advice that I ever got was from Annie early on in my career and of all trades who we've been friends for forever. Um, and she told me, get over yourself and start posting on Instagram. This was in like 2018.
00:56:26
pjasper
Thanks.
00:56:27
YEEERack
And it really was like, to your point earlier, Paul, like it was like a, like a pride thing. It was like, ah well, I don't know. It's social media. ah ah And then.
00:56:37
Murr
Were there many other woodworkers on Instagram at that point or no?
00:56:41
YEEERack
Um, yeah, I mean, the OGs, the, yeah, the OGs were, were definitely on there.
00:56:42
Murr
This 2018 is pretty late.
00:56:46
YEEERack
There were a lot of large accounts. Um, I think there were, you know, so like if you had over a hundred thousand on Instagram at that point, you were a big deal.
00:56:54
Murr
Mhm.
00:56:55
YEEERack
Um, but it, it. If you can figure out, it's another business venture. And if you can figure out how to work that into your business plan, then what it does allow you to do is make interesting objects and maintain creative autonomy and creative engagement in a way that some other paths wouldn't necessarily allow you to do.
00:57:18
pjasper
Well said. All right.
00:57:21
Murr
Yeah. And I know like, uh, I guess in the past for YouTube channels, they've said like, Oh, it's the life of the average YouTube channels, like seven years. But at this point, I feel like I know of so many channels now that have outlasted that. And I feel like social media and especially YouTube specifically is only getting stronger right now. So that saying may not be true.
00:57:43
YEEERack
I don't know that it is true anymore. um And I mean, we also got to remember we are still in the the first stage of YouTube. Like, you you know, you can break down overall, but I listen, YouTube is here to stay. All the other platforms are going to come and go. YouTube is here to stay. So I think we are still very much in the first stage, maybe maybe in the early stages of the second phase of YouTube. um And I don't think there is any indication that you can't make a channel that lasts 10 to 20 years.
00:58:16
YEEERack
Like you you could be the the the Bob Ross or the um Mr. Rogers of woodworking if you want it to be.
00:58:24
pjasper
I love Bob Ross.
00:58:25
Tile
you
00:58:27
YEEERack
Who doesn't love Bob Ross? so who who didn't smoke Who didn't smoke a J and fall asleep to Bob Ross in college?
00:58:30
Murr
Just some happy little trees!
00:58:32
pjasper
ah
00:58:35
YEEERack
Come on.
00:58:35
pjasper
Uh, you know, anytime speak. Yeah. Anytime my daughter is sick and home from school, I put on, I, she asked me to put up Bob Ross and she just laid.
00:58:40
Murr
Aww.
00:58:43
YEEERack
Yeah.
00:58:44
Murr
Really?
00:58:44
pjasper
Yeah. She lays on the couch and she's only teenager and she lays on the couch and she listens to those like soothing words of Bob Ross that she like falls in and out of sleep.
00:58:46
YEEERack
It's the pro move. It's a pro move.
00:58:53
Murr
Aww.
00:58:54
pjasper
That's so cute. Oh my God.
00:58:56
Murr
My equivalent, my equivalent of that is National Geographic, always just throwing National Geographic or like Planet Earth or BBC anything.
00:58:56
YEEERack
It's amazing.
00:59:00
YEEERack
Okay, okay.
00:59:06
Murr
Oh, so good.
00:59:06
Tile
you
00:59:07
pjasper
Happy little discussions we just had.
00:59:07
YEEERack
I hope, ah I hope one day that somebody compares me to Roy Underhill. That's my career
Transitioning to Full-Time Work: Key Considerations
00:59:15
YEEERack
goal. If I can make that happen, then I will have made it.
00:59:16
pjasper
Oh, we have to get Roy Underhill on the podcast. Let's ask him.
00:59:21
YEEERack
Roy, Roy is one of the best human beings I've ever met.
00:59:26
pjasper
All right, so Roy Underhill, Bob Ross.
00:59:27
Tile
so roy out your hill bo
00:59:29
pjasper
Well, we can't have Bob Ross. But anyway, let's wrap up our discussion about going full time. I think we covered a lot of topics. Why do you want to ask yourself?
00:59:36
Tile
why do we want ask
00:59:37
pjasper
Why do you want to do it?
00:59:37
Tile
why do you
00:59:39
pjasper
Is it so burning hot that it's a compulsion? There's no other thing you can do. All right, go do it. Eric says, unless unless it feels that strong, don't do it.
00:59:48
Murr
Hahaha!
00:59:49
pjasper
so so The second point is consider the economics of it, both the startup economics, how to make that work, and the sustainability economics.
00:59:49
YEEERack
That's where I stand.
00:59:50
YEEERack
That's where I come down.
00:59:58
pjasper
Number three, you know if you choose not to go full time, hobbyist is not a bad word. There's plenty of really happy, talented hobbyists out there.
01:00:07
Tile
happy
01:00:10
pjasper
and let's let's get Let's dispel this this inertia or the d stigma around being a hobbyist. Number four, If you do decide to do it, know it's going to be a hard path.
01:00:21
Tile
no
01:00:23
pjasper
And we talked a lot about all the reasons it was going to be a hard path. And finally, if you do do it, know that there are many different routes to do it, whether it's content creation, or commissions, or teaching, or some culmination of income streams.
01:00:29
Tile
know that there
01:00:39
pjasper
right And so i you know there's no clear answer.
01:00:40
Tile
thought You know.
01:00:42
pjasper
The answer is going to come from you and your objectives and what you what you'd love to do.
01:00:48
Tile
you
Woodworking Trivia and Fun Facts
01:00:49
pjasper
So with that, we're going to pivot to our next segment, and I'm going to give I'm going to give our two co-hosts who are who are typing really nasty things to me in the chat ah privately.
01:00:49
Tile
so with
01:01:00
Tile
really bad
01:01:05
pjasper
um I'm going to give them a choice of what we pivot to is our next segment, either sourcing wood You fuckers, stop typing stuff. Is it sourcing wood or is it wood trivia? Like, where do you buy your wood or do we want to do wood trivia?
01:01:18
Tile
you buy
01:01:20
pjasper
You guys pick.
01:01:26
Murr
Were you distracted?
01:01:28
pjasper
Yeah, I know.
01:01:29
YEEERack
We're just going to let the awkward silence linger.
01:01:29
pjasper
You're too busy fucking typing bullshit to me. Nobody fucking doo-doo dookie, what the fuck?
01:01:36
Murr
Only second grade, third grade humor over here. It's fine.
01:01:40
pjasper
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:40
Tile
yeah
01:01:40
YEEERack
It's fine.
01:01:41
pjasper
Are are we gonna do trivia or where to buy wood?
01:01:41
Tile
ah original
01:01:42
YEEERack
ah Let's go.
01:01:43
Murr
I would probably say, oh, I was gonna say probably trivia and then we could do where to buy wood in the after show.
01:01:49
YEEERack
I was going to say trivia as well.
01:01:52
pjasper
Okay.
01:01:52
Tile
okay after show
01:01:52
pjasper
After show is where do you source your wood from?
01:01:54
Tile
where
01:01:55
pjasper
All right. So we'll get to that. So trivia.
01:01:57
Tile
ah tria
01:01:58
pjasper
All right.
01:01:58
Tile
right
01:01:58
pjasper
Cause you know, I got a lot of feedback from our last trivia that they, people enjoyed it. So I, instead of using internet trivia, like Eric did very lazily, I actually wrote the trivia.
01:02:07
YEEERack
Wow, okay.
01:02:12
pjasper
I took the time, Eric, you little bitch, to write the trivia questions myself.
01:02:14
Tile
but
01:02:17
pjasper
Okay.
01:02:17
YEEERack
Sorry, I was trying to bring some fresh fucking segs into this show, Paul.
01:02:20
pjasper
No, actually, actually, actually, I thought the trivia was amazing and Jen said Aloha wood, which people want made into a t-shirt.
01:02:20
Tile
i
01:02:21
Murr
I liked his questions!
01:02:21
Tile
i
01:02:29
YEEERack
Aloha, Wood. I'm making a t-shirt on bonfire right now, Aloha, Wood.
01:02:31
pjasper
Yeah.
01:02:33
pjasper
Okay.
01:02:33
Tile
okay
01:02:34
pjasper
There are a few people who said they would buy that immediately. All right.
01:02:38
YEEERack
100 love it Yes How many options do we have ah
01:02:38
pjasper
Are you ready for some trivia?
01:02:41
Murr
Yes.
01:02:41
pjasper
All right, let's do it. Okay, so first off, I don't know why I thought about this, but I did.
01:02:43
Tile
no I don't know why I thought about this.
01:02:48
pjasper
What are the best woods to use for outdoor applications? Mary, mayor ah you you can give up to yeah you can give up to four answers.
01:02:56
Tile
mary mary
01:02:58
Murr
Yeah. Is this a list?
01:03:03
pjasper
Mary, what would you use for outdoor furniture?
01:03:04
Murr
Cedar?
01:03:06
pjasper
Cedar. Eric, your turn, you go one at a time. Eric, what's yours?
01:03:10
YEEERack
eBay.
01:03:11
pjasper
E pay. Excellent.
01:03:12
Murr
That's what I was gonna say.
01:03:13
YEEERack
Yeah, I know another one, but I took that one because you wanted that one.
01:03:13
pjasper
Mary.
01:03:18
Murr
Have you Sapelli before?
01:03:24
pjasper
i I mean, I don't know it's a mahogany relative, but yeah, it might be okay.
01:03:25
YEEERack
It's trash.
01:03:30
pjasper
Cause mahogany is considered pretty good.
01:03:33
Murr
I know of Sapelli holding up over many years, so that's the reason I say it.
01:03:37
pjasper
Okay.
01:03:37
YEEERack
So is it my turn?
01:03:38
pjasper
Okay, I buy that I buy that Eric.
01:03:38
Tile
yeah
01:03:40
YEEERack
Uh, locust either honey or black.
01:03:43
pjasper
Oh, that is such a dark horse answer. I love that answer.
01:03:47
Tile
love that answer
01:03:48
pjasper
That's not one of the ones that it's right.
01:03:48
YEEERack
Cause it's right.
01:03:49
YEEERack
That's why.
01:03:50
Tile
right
01:03:50
pjasper
It's right. And by the way, black locust, apparently the bark is like toxic. It's got a human toxin in the
01:03:56
YEEERack
Yeah. Black, black locust. I have pulled up, uh, fence posts like farm posts of black locusts 50 to 60 years after, and they're still completely intact. That shit does not rot.
01:04:09
Murr
Wow.
01:04:09
Tile
that
01:04:09
pjasper
That's fantastic.
01:04:10
YEEERack
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:11
Murr
Hmm.
01:04:12
pjasper
Any others?
01:04:12
Tile
and the other
01:04:13
YEEERack
Oh, but that wasn't on the list.
01:04:15
pjasper
No, that no that was that was so good.
01:04:15
Tile
that no that
01:04:15
Murr
ah
01:04:16
Tile
so
01:04:17
pjasper
I didn't even have it on my list.
01:04:18
Murr
Uh...
01:04:19
pjasper
What's next?
01:04:20
Murr
I was gonna say teak?
01:04:20
pjasper
Mary?
01:04:20
Tile
gary
01:04:21
pjasper
Teak, obviously.
01:04:22
YEEERack
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
01:04:23
pjasper
Teak, yep. Any others?
01:04:24
Tile
never
01:04:25
Murr
Redwood, I guess?
01:04:26
pjasper
and Redwood, yep.
01:04:27
Tile
rightwood
01:04:27
YEEERack
Redwood is a solid, I mean outside of outside of importing like highly expensive exotics that don't rot because they're half silical.
01:04:27
Tile
yeah
01:04:28
Murr
Yeah.
01:04:30
Murr
What else is there?
01:04:32
pjasper
I also had...
01:04:32
Tile
also Any
01:04:37
pjasper
I had white oak. White oak actually is decent.
01:04:39
Murr
Yeah, white oak, yeah.
01:04:40
YEEERack
Okay.
01:04:40
Tile
other?
01:04:40
YEEERack
All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:41
pjasper
Decent, yeah.
01:04:41
YEEERack
Yeah. That's fair.
01:04:42
pjasper
Okay, you know why I did that as a as trivia question?
01:04:42
Tile
Okay.
01:04:45
pjasper
Because so many people ask me, I need to make Adirondack chairs. I'm gonna make flower boxes. What should I make it out of? And of course, pressure-treated, obviously.
01:04:51
YEEERack
If you're making, if you're making those, just make them out of pine. It's going to fucking degrade anyway.
01:04:55
pjasper
Yeah, pressure-treated pine is good for things like that. But anyway, we we I thought we'd review some of the other woods that hold up outdoors. Second of all, the next question is, ah Speaking of outdoor woods, which oak has open pores and which has closed pores?
01:05:10
Tile
oh
01:05:15
pjasper
And when it has closed pores, what exactly is closing them?
01:05:21
YEEERack
What? Which oak has open and closed?
01:05:23
pjasper
Which oak has open pores, which oak has closed pores, and what is closing them?
01:05:25
Murr
Red.
01:05:27
YEEERack
Yeah. No, white oak has open pores.
01:05:28
Murr
White. Or, yeah, sorry.
01:05:30
pjasper
Wait, sorry.
01:05:30
Tile
you
01:05:30
YEEERack
What?
01:05:31
YEEERack
White is open, red is closed.
01:05:32
Murr
Yes. No, it's the other way around, right?
01:05:34
pjasper
Yeah.
01:05:37
Murr
Yeah. Red is, red is open. It always has open grain and then white is closed. I don't know what closes them though.
01:05:45
pjasper
Mary is correct.
01:05:47
YEEERack
No, she's not.
01:05:48
pjasper
Yes, she is.
01:05:51
YEEERack
Flat out denial.
01:05:52
Murr
that's what That's why rh you don't use red oak for cutting boards or anything, and white oak is okay, usually.
01:05:52
pjasper
Wrong.
01:05:57
YEEERack
I mean, here's the thing.
01:05:57
pjasper
Mary, Mary, drop in the knowledge.
01:05:58
Tile
very his knowledge
01:06:00
YEEERack
Here's the thing, they're they're both open.
01:06:03
pjasper
Not, okay.
01:06:03
Murr
Yeah, they're both open comparatively to some other woods, but white is more closed for sure.
01:06:04
Tile
Okay.
01:06:08
pjasper
One of them you can use as a straw and blow bubbles in your in your water with.
01:06:11
Murr
Yeah.
01:06:12
YEEERack
you can You can do that in White Oak, I've done that.
01:06:14
pjasper
Nope.
01:06:15
YEEERack
i will I will get a piece of fucking White Oak right now and do it, motherfucker!
01:06:15
pjasper
Try it.
01:06:19
pjasper
Try it again, big guy.
01:06:19
Murr
Let's chop up my dining table. Let's do it.
01:06:22
pjasper
Eric, try it again, buddy. I've tried it both.
01:06:24
YEEERack
This, this motherfucker.
01:06:25
pjasper
I've tried it multiple times.
01:06:26
Murr
So wait so what closes the green?
01:06:27
pjasper
You're wrong. So what closes the pores of white oak?
01:06:34
Murr
The whiteness.
01:06:35
YEEERack
Yup.
01:06:36
pjasper
It's super interesting and it's a science answer.
01:06:38
YEEERack
Southern baptism.
01:06:39
pjasper
It's called, they're called, no, it's not Southern baptism.
01:06:40
Tile
their
01:06:43
pjasper
They're called tyloses. And it's actually an extrusion of the cell wall of the plant cell.
01:06:49
Tile
oh
01:06:51
pjasper
Like the the plant cell that makes the wood, like think of it like a little ah rectangle.
01:06:52
Tile
the plant style that makes the work like
01:06:56
pjasper
It like has a bleb that like comes out of the sidewall and like sticks into the pour and like clogs it shut.
01:06:56
Tile
like had the ble out of
01:07:03
pjasper
It's so cool.
01:07:04
Tile
so
01:07:05
YEEERack
Remember when we said that Paul loves science?
01:07:06
Murr
Science.
01:07:09
Tile
you
01:07:09
YEEERack
We've been talking about woodworking for 67 minutes and this motherfucker just lit up for the first time all episode like a schoolboy who just saw a pair of boobies for the first time.
01:07:23
pjasper
Eric! So Google, not boobies, but tyloses. And if you want to look at Google images, and you'll see the cell wall of like kind of like extruding out into the pore and clogging it shut. I thought that was so absolutely fascinating as to why White Oak is not only a good outdoor wood because it resists water because of that. Mary, very good. I give you extra credit. Eric, you were totally fucking wrong.
01:07:52
YEEERack
Still stand by what I said.
01:07:54
Tile
first
01:07:54
pjasper
But I just think that's really interesting. Next question. Okay. ah ah Which mahogany relative smells like cinnamon and or a nutmeg when you cut it?
01:08:11
Murr
I don't know this one.
01:08:12
YEEERack
Ooh, I can sassafras.
01:08:15
pjasper
You both know the answer.
01:08:15
Tile
you
01:08:17
YEEERack
It's not sassafras.
01:08:18
pjasper
You said it already.
01:08:20
YEEERack
eBay?
01:08:20
pjasper
so Sapele, yeah, Sapele.
01:08:20
Murr
Sapellic?
01:08:22
YEEERack
Sapele? Oh, I never work with Sapele, I don't know.
01:08:24
pjasper
I don't know if you've ever cut Sapele. It smells it smells like like cinnamon and nutmeg mixed together. It's a fast, it's like such a good smell.
01:08:31
YEEERack
Interesting.
01:08:34
Murr
I I remember it smelling good, but I didn't, I don't know if I like pinpointed it as cinnamon and nutmeg.
01:08:38
pjasper
Well, mahogany smells like nothing, and Sapele smells amazing.
01:08:39
Tile
exposed like
01:08:39
Murr
ah
01:08:43
pjasper
Are there any other woods that you guys like to smell of?
01:08:44
Murr
I like sapele.
01:08:46
YEEERack
sassafras Smells it smells like Christmas.
01:08:47
pjasper
You're fucking sad, Sephras.
01:08:49
YEEERack
Huh? No, I'm dead ass, man Yeah, sassafras sassafras is fucking delightful Dead ass no cat motherfucker So what I said no sassafras is delightful
01:08:50
Murr
Deadass!
01:08:51
pjasper
Are you serious?
01:08:51
Tile
board
01:08:56
pjasper
I thought you were bullshitting.
01:09:01
pjasper
What are you, 15?
01:09:07
Murr
Oh man.
01:09:08
pjasper
Oh.
01:09:08
Tile
.
01:09:10
pjasper
What's it smell like? Like juniper?
01:09:12
YEEERack
Uh, yeah, I guess. I don't know. i Listen, I don't have a refined palette or nose, but it smells wonderful.
01:09:19
pjasper
I will add one, I wanna add one to the list, bloodwood.
01:09:20
YEEERack
It smells like Christmas.
01:09:23
pjasper
It smells amazing when you cut it.
01:09:26
Murr
What?
01:09:26
YEEERack
Interesting. Okay.
01:09:28
pjasper
It smells so sweet and beautiful. Oh shit, I just undid one of my answers.
01:09:31
Murr
Interesting.
01:09:33
pjasper
Oh no, I just screwed up.
01:09:34
Tile
.
01:09:35
YEEERack
Oh no. You can't control Z that motherfucker.
01:09:39
pjasper
i just I just gave the answer to one of my next questions.
01:09:40
Tile
you
01:09:43
pjasper
What's the only red wood that doesn't oxidize to brown over time? wawah
01:09:50
YEEERack
I mean, bloodwood will go brown eventually.
01:09:53
pjasper
No, it doesn't, not for a long, long, long, long time.
01:09:55
YEEERack
Yeah. Well, I mean, everything goes brown eventually.
01:09:58
pjasper
I've never seen it, Eric.
01:09:59
Murr
Define long. but
01:10:00
pjasper
i know Eric, Eric, you know, if you, if you look it up, like, and so Paduc red turns brown fast.
01:10:03
YEEERack
Yeah, it's fair. I have a couple of sticks that are still very red.
01:10:07
Tile
for you red
01:10:08
YEEERack
Yeah. ah Immediately. Yeah.
01:10:11
pjasper
Uh, red, red heart turns brown fast or bloodwood for some reason stays red almost forever.
01:10:13
YEEERack
Yep. Yep.
01:10:15
Tile
one um
01:10:19
YEEERack
It's is very ironic given how fast blood turns brown.
01:10:20
pjasper
Yeah.
01:10:24
Murr
Yes.
01:10:26
pjasper
That's a good point. All right. Next, next question. Uh, uh, what's the oldest tree on earth?
01:10:36
Murr
Oh, well, uh, yeah, I was going to say, I remember Prometheus was the oldest tree and then got cut down and everything.
01:10:38
YEEERack
Methuselah.
01:10:39
pjasper
It is, he got it.
01:10:39
Tile
get
01:10:40
YEEERack
It is Methuselah.
01:10:42
Tile
got it
01:10:48
YEEERack
And then, yeah.
01:10:50
Murr
Uh, fun fact, actually my friend who's a glassblower recently tracked down the stump of Prometheus because they they have had hidden location.
01:10:55
YEEERack
Really?
01:10:57
Murr
She did a 3d scan of it and she's glassblowing a mold of it and it's extremely cool.
01:11:00
pjasper
Oh, that's so cool, Mary.
01:11:01
YEEERack
No shit.
01:11:02
Murr
Yeah.
01:11:02
YEEERack
That's gangster.
01:11:03
Tile
fool narrative
01:11:03
pjasper
It was Prometheus, a bristlecone pine like Methuselah.
01:11:04
Murr
Yeah.
01:11:04
Tile
He's got it.
01:11:06
Murr
Yes. Yes.
01:11:08
pjasper
Okay.
01:11:08
Murr
I think, ah where, where is Mathias located?
01:11:11
pjasper
Okay, so Methuselah is in the, no, it's not the the just, yeah, it's in the Inyo National Forest in the White Mountains of Eastern California.
01:11:11
Tile
okay
01:11:12
YEEERack
Did they give the location?
01:11:15
Murr
Like general location.
01:11:15
YEEERack
No, yeah.
01:11:16
Tile
yeah
01:11:20
YEEERack
Hmm.
01:11:21
Murr
Okay. Yeah. That's the, that's simpler. Yeah.
01:11:23
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:11:24
pjasper
So I don't know if any of you have seen a picture of Methuselah, the bristlecone pine.
01:11:25
Tile
you
01:11:27
YEEERack
Oh yeah, yeah, it's gnarly as shit.
01:11:30
pjasper
They estimate its age at 5,000 years old.
01:11:34
YEEERack
Uh-huh. Yeah, it's wild.
01:11:36
Murr
Yeah.
01:11:36
pjasper
Okay. 5,000. Let's put that in perspective, right? That is like 3,000 BC is when that tree started growing.
01:11:45
YEEERack
Is that older than the pyramids? I think that's older than the pyramids, right?
01:11:48
pjasper
ah Yeah.
01:11:49
Murr
Mm hmm.
01:11:49
pjasper
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
01:11:50
Murr
Yeah.
01:11:50
pjasper
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 3,000 BC is when that.
01:11:53
YEEERack
I don't.
01:11:54
Tile
when that
01:11:56
pjasper
pine tree like took root and started growing.
01:11:58
YEEERack
Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:59
pjasper
Like what?
01:12:00
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:12:00
pjasper
And if you look at pictures of it, it's a hot mess. It's like, you know, it's all, it's all twisted.
01:12:03
YEEERack
Oh, yeah.
01:12:03
Murr
It looks dead.
01:12:03
Tile
it's all
01:12:04
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:12:04
Tile
it's all
01:12:05
YEEERack
No, it looks 5,000 years old.
01:12:05
Tile
with and
01:12:05
pjasper
And and it's tiny.
01:12:07
Murr
Yeah.
01:12:07
Tile
okay you.
01:12:10
pjasper
It's like six feet tall. It's barely like, Oh yeah, it's tiny.
01:12:11
Murr
Wait, really?
01:12:12
YEEERack
Really? Oh, no shit. I didn't realize it was that small.
01:12:14
pjasper
Yeah. No, that the, the bristlecone pines are small.
01:12:15
Murr
Oh, wow.
01:12:17
pjasper
They're all twisted and gnarly.
01:12:18
YEEERack
Wow.
01:12:19
pjasper
They're small trees. They're not big. They're on, they're on tops of mountains. They're not there. No, no. They're not like these huge sequoias or anything.
01:12:26
pjasper
Google it.
01:12:26
Murr
It's only six feet?
01:12:27
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:12:27
Murr
That's crazy.
01:12:28
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:12:28
pjasper
ah Yeah, it's small. It's, small I don't know if it's six feet exactly. It might be eight feet. I don't know, but it's small.
01:12:32
Murr
But it's not i feel like the redwoods or anything.
01:12:33
pjasper
It's not. No, no, no.
01:12:35
Murr
Wow.
01:12:35
pjasper
It's on the top of mountains.
01:12:35
YEEERack
I don't, I don't, I don't understand how this is alive.
01:12:41
YEEERack
Like it just, it looks like a fossil.
01:12:44
pjasper
Okay.
01:12:44
Tile
okay
01:12:45
pjasper
Uh, last question.
01:12:46
Tile
but
01:12:48
Murr
Okay.
01:12:48
pjasper
What is the largest?
01:12:48
Tile
you.
01:12:51
pjasper
Organism and this has to do with a tree. What is the largest living organ?
01:12:54
Murr
okay
01:12:54
YEEERack
The Aspens in Colorado.
01:12:56
pjasper
Oh God, Eric, you're so fast. Dick.
01:13:01
YEEERack
The Aspen Grove.
01:13:02
Murr
Yep.
01:13:04
pjasper
He's right. So the largest living organism, and it happens that the oldest living root system in the world is a stand of trembling Aspen in Utah.
01:13:14
YEEERack
Oh, it's in Utah, alright.
01:13:17
pjasper
And they estimate it to be 80,000 years old.
01:13:21
Murr
That's so cool.
01:13:21
pjasper
Now, now that's, that's the root system has been alive for 80,000 years and it just keeps sending up like aspens and it's, it's, it's a hundred acres big.
01:13:22
YEEERack
Really?
01:13:22
Tile
so
01:13:24
YEEERack
Yeah.
01:13:25
Tile
why
01:13:28
YEEERack
Mhm.
01:13:32
pjasper
That's how big the root system is as a hundred acres and it just keep sending up these little aspens. and And the aspens are like 100, 130 years old, but relative to its root system, they're all clones of each other, by the way, because they come from a ah unified, yeah yeah, they're all genetically clones.
01:13:37
Tile
and ask
01:13:41
Tile
so
01:13:45
YEEERack
Right. That's what I was going to say.
01:13:46
Tile
Now, that's the test.
01:13:48
YEEERack
It's wild.
01:13:48
pjasper
Every aspen is the same. They're just these little offshoots of what is an 80,000 year old root system.
01:13:55
YEEERack
That's bonkers.
01:13:55
pjasper
How fucking interesting.
01:13:55
Murr
That's so cool.
01:13:57
pjasper
Is that 80,000 year old?
01:13:57
YEEERack
It's bonkers.
01:13:57
Tile
got
01:13:57
Murr
That's amazing.
01:13:59
YEEERack
See? That's where science becomes cool.
01:14:04
Murr
Wow.
01:14:04
pjasper
It's like my two favorite things, science and wood.
01:14:04
Tile
Thank
01:14:07
Murr
80,000 years old?
01:14:09
pjasper
Yeah, yeah.
01:14:11
Murr
Wow. It's almost as old as you.
01:14:11
pjasper
They must've... Oh my god.
01:14:13
YEEERack
Wow.
01:14:18
YEEERack
da
01:14:19
pjasper
You know what?
01:14:19
Murr
Had to make it. Had to make the joke.
01:14:21
pjasper
Oh my god. Oh my god. Mary, if you're lucky, someday you'll be as old as me. On that note, on that note we will pivot away from trivia
01:14:28
Murr
True.
01:14:31
Tile
you.
01:14:33
pjasper
ah i do I want to say thanks to our ah Patreon supporters.
01:14:34
Tile
i do want
01:14:38
YEEERack
Damn!
01:14:38
pjasper
you both Not only thank you for supporting us, but you gave us ideas for The After Show.
01:14:41
YEEERack
Hmm.
01:14:43
Tile
yeah
01:14:43
pjasper
And so today's After Show, we're going to talk about where do you get your wood from? Because I get asked that all the time, and I think the answers might surprise you. So if you'd like to join to hear The After Show,
01:14:53
Tile
youd like to join
01:14:56
pjasper
ah just join Patreon for us and you'll get all the answers you like. I want to thank our last five patrons since the last show. We have Will Baumgardner.
01:15:05
Tile
yeah um
01:15:09
pjasper
We have an old friend of mine who I used to work with, Thomas Lewis, who used the username Tom Ass. Thank you, Thomas. ah was very how was it's very sophisticated That was very sophisticated of you.
01:15:21
YEEERack
Classic Thomas.
01:15:26
pjasper
ah We have Ed Duncan.
01:15:27
Tile
there'
01:15:28
pjasper
We have Jono and Catherine, so Catherine Dodd.
01:15:28
Tile
you
01:15:34
pjasper
So thank you.
01:15:34
Tile
Thank you.
01:15:36
Murr
Thank you.
01:15:37
pjasper
Yeah, thank you for joining us.
01:15:37
Tile
yeah
01:15:37
YEEERack
Thanks, France.
01:15:39
pjasper
actually So um with that, I think we're gonna roll onto the aftershow and talk about wood.
01:15:45
Murr
Also, I want to say if we would love more questions for the after show. So if you do, if you are a patron and you have any ideas or questions you want to ask us that you want us to answer, please ask.
01:15:57
pjasper
All right. So with that, we will catch you next episode all.
01:16:01
Tile
with that
01:16:06
Murr
Bye.
01:16:06
YEEERack
Peace, y'all.
01:16:08
pjasper
Hey, Mary said goodbye and we didn't have to dog her, Eric.
01:16:08
Tile
you
01:16:11
YEEERack
Oh, man, we're growing as a pod, guys.
01:16:12
pjasper
Oh, Mary, you're catching on!
01:16:13
Murr
Oh my God.
01:16:15
YEEERack
Aww. um
01:16:15
pjasper
Bye!
01:16:16
Murr
i hate you i hate
01:16:16
YEEERack
my
01:16:17
Murr
both so much
01:16:39
Murr
I hate you. I hate you both so much!