Episode 14 - Stay Hobbyist or go Full Time Professional?

Transcript

pjasper: Here we go again, maker community.

Tile: we go again makeker community

pjasper: Another episode of your favorite podcast that doesn't give a shit about convention and tells it like it is.

Tile: another

Tile: doesn't give a shit about convention like it

pjasper: This is Woodworking is Bullshit.

Tile: are team

pjasper: I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night.

Tile: um your brother paul gasper seven

pjasper: and I'm joined with my two fabulous, intriguing, and intelligent co -hosts, Eric Curtis, full -time furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tassai, AI designer by day, contemporary woodworker by night.

Tile: enjoy like

Tile: <unk>

Tile: as here

Tile: ai design by da weve worked there fine

pjasper: Woodworker -tris, woodwork -tris?

YEEERack: Woodworktress.

Tile: no

pjasper: No,

Murr: Have you been saying my last name to Psy this whole time?

pjasper: no I've just been doing that to fuck with you.

YEEERack: We're just going to glaze over Woodworktress.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: That's not just some seductive title right there.

pjasper: I just thought it was cooler than woodworker.

Tile: i just thought it was cooler than woodwe cur

Murr: That should be my Instagram handle. oh I'm sure um sure it's already out there.

YEEERack: Woodworktress.

pjasper: Woodwork dress.

YEEERack: Go do it. Go claim it right now.

pjasper: It's like dominatrix but different.

Tile: it's like dominatmini

YEEERack: ah

Murr: I'd also like to point out that you missed Eric's other title of Bake Shop a Renovator.

YEEERack: Bake Shop Renovator!

pjasper: jed Oh shit.

Murr: I don't know what you want to call it, but TV personality, two -time TV show.

pjasper: shit.

Tile: All right, tell everyone.

pjasper: Eric, tell everyone.

YEEERack: Yes, yes, I have a new show out ah where it is me and an old British lady named Nancy Burt Whistle, who is a fucking delight of a human being.

pjasper: Eric, tell everyone.

Tile: tell everyone.

YEEERack: And we are renovating bakeries in l LA. So by the time you hear this, probably about half the season will be out on the CW. And you can see it Fridays at eight prime time, baby. Or ah you can see it, I believe 12 hours after it'll be streaming on the CW app. So you can check them out there. You can just go to CW dot .com and stream it there.

Murr: Have you watched it yet?

Tile: you

pjasper: Eric.

YEEERack: I have watched it and ah it is it is a show.

Murr: Wow.

pjasper: ah

Murr: Nancy Burt Whistle sounds like the most stereotypical British name you could ever come up with.

YEEERack: You could not be more British. You could not be more British than Nazi Bet Whistle.

Murr: I do love great British makeup, so we'll definitely give it a watch.

YEEERack: Oh yeah, and she she did, she won the Great British Bake Off 10 years ago, the first season we had in the States.

Murr: Was it first season?

YEEERack: And it's not the first season, but the first season we got, it was season four.

Murr: Okay.

YEEERack: um And yeah, she's she is a delight of a human being. And it was the highlight of making the show was was working with Nancy.

pjasper: Well, Eric, I know you like to give your credit away to everyone, but we're all very proud of you.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Aw, thanks buddy.

Murr: Yeah, let's get Emmy number two.

pjasper: You are.

YEEERack: um

Murr: ah

YEEERack: I just, let's go two for two, baby.

pjasper: Yeah. ha Oh yeah.

YEEERack: I just want to say not to draw the the conversation away from this, but I do want to say that woodwork dress is not an account.

Murr: the

YEEERack: And, uh, I don't know if you remember, but your boy has a collection of accounts. And so I now have woodwork dress as one of my house would work.

Murr: Wait, how do you spell that?

pjasper: Yes.

YEEERack: T R E S S woodwork dress.

Murr: Good work, Truss.

pjasper: Excellent. Anyone who wants to see questionable AI generated pictures of Mary Woodworking.

Tile: anyone who but ai gen mary leree

YEEERack: And if you think exactly, if you think that's not the aftershow today, it's just us generating images of Mary Woodworking.

Murr: Wait, me? What?

YEEERack: Yep, yep. No, you're you're the mascot, buddy.

pjasper: Yes.

YEEERack: I don't know how to tell you this.

Murr: Oh, God.

pjasper: Okay, this shows off to a roaring good start.

Tile: okay

Murr: yeah

pjasper: and It's like went straight to the bullshit.

Tile: think like the divorce

YEEERack: ah Forget the Woodworking. Let's just live in the bullshit today.

Murr: Yeah, yeah, that's the best part.

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay

pjasper: Well, we actually do have a serious show for today as usual.

Tile: well yeah actually do have a great

pjasper: And we'd like to start with a question.

Murr: What?

Tile: like question

pjasper: Oh my God.

Murr: ah Ridiculous.

Tile: you

Murr: We're just in a loosey goosey mood.

YEEERack: We really are.

pjasper: As usual, we will start with a question.

Murr: I would like to point out also that we tried to record this last week and had technical issues, so it' instead we just played Mario Kart all night.

pjasper: That was fantastic.

Murr: Which is also great.

YEEERack: And then we were going to record last night and then you were like, nah.

Murr: I had to help a friend.

pjasper: Yeah, we're your friends too.

Tile: yeah where you

Murr: But, you know, it's fine. It's fine.

YEEERack: Yeah, exactly.

Tile: and

pjasper: And all our all our listeners are friends and you can help them by fucking recording once in a blue moon.

Tile: and or

YEEERack: Yeah. Yeah.

Murr: I do - oh my god, it's this gang up I did not expect.

YEEERack: You know what?

Murr: Alright.

YEEERack: You can help them by proposing the goddamn question for this week.

Murr: Okay, all right, enough. got I guess we're just like teasing me this week, apparently. All right, so question for this week is one that is ah commonly asked, one of the most commonly asked questions that I get, and I'm sure a lot of um my co -hosts also get.

pjasper: Indeed.

Tile: Thank

Murr: So the question that we're going to be addressing is, it's being in hot is being a hobbyist enough? Or should you go full time? So like we mentioned, this is commonly asked, especially for probably Paul and me because we're both hobbyists and have full time jobs. um But I think it's particularly important to talk about because people have to make that decision of whether or not to make that jump from being a hobbyist into full time woodworking or full time whatever you want to become in this field.

Tile: you.

Murr: So There's a lot of pros and cons of both and we will go over them and it kind of depends on, you know, like personal goals, financial situations, risk tolerances, passion. For me, I know like we'll we'll go over this, but passion is something that I am worried about losing if it becomes my full -time job. So um yeah, it's something that I often struggle with because I think it means that, you know, if it becomes a full -time job, I no longer have a hobby, which kind of scares me, but I know that's not always going to be the case for everyone.

Murr: Yeah, so Paul or Eric, where ah I guess first I'll ask Paul because you are also a hobbyist like me.

pjasper: Yeah.

Tile: you

Murr: Where do you land in this?

pjasper: Oh, God. So, all right, so first first thing I wanna do is speak from my own perspective, like how I feel, and then I wanna sort of raise some of the larger questions, Mary, that you touched on, which I think we should consider one at a time. So speaking for myself, I hear all the time from friends and family and all kinds of people, for many years now,

Tile: ay you all

pjasper: When are you gonna pursue your real passion of woodworking?

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: why When are you gonna make the switch?

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: And what those people don't understand is that I am, is that I am pers...

Tile: and what those people

Murr: because you're not passionate about science?

Tile: that

YEEERack: This motherfucker loves science so goddamn much.

Murr: Let's say.

pjasper: I do, I do, I do.

Murr: I know!

Tile: do

Murr: Two things, I would die in a hill. It's just Paul of science and Paul of design and craft.

pjasper: Yes.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: ye Yep.

pjasper: Yes.

Tile: yeah

pjasper: Yes.

YEEERack: Yep.

pjasper: Science is my real like first passion and it is, I mean, as much as I love woodworking, I'd say it's even stronger for science and it sustained me.

Tile: i my real

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: So, and I've never lost the love of it.

Tile: and i've never lost no

pjasper: Even though I do it as a job, I freaking love it.

Tile: even though i

pjasper: So, um, I haven't lost it at all. And so I am pursuing my passion and woodworking has become an additional passion, which is lovely.

Tile: Yeah.

pjasper: I'm so thankful, but I am good not being a full -time woodworker.

Tile: Science is my real, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first, my first,

pjasper: I love being a scientist and I love the flexibility it affords me in the woodshop. So that's my personal answer.

Tile: for first

YEEERack: So can I ask you a question about that?

pjasper: Go ahead.

Tile: ahead book everybody

pjasper: But everyone wants to talk.

YEEERack: and Just immediately, we both raised our hands.

pjasper: Go ahead.

Tile: yeah

pjasper: Yeah, go ahead.

YEEERack: ah So I assume you plan on retiring one day.

pjasper: Yeah, I don't know.

Tile: Yeah I don't know.

Murr: It's like my dad.

YEEERack: Eh? Eh? Yeah?

pjasper: Actually, Eric, and wait, can can I answer that?

Tile: ah share we i don't imagine hiring you never more a little life not the

YEEERack: Because you, yeah.

pjasper: Wait, can I answer that?

Murr: ah

YEEERack: Go, please.

pjasper: Okay, so ah to me, science is not like a job I'm looking to get rid of.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm.

pjasper: Science is like a way of life.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

pjasper: And I don't imagine like just retiring and never doing it again. I could see slowly downshifting like into more consulting or like a little less of ah ah a fiery role or a demanding role.

YEEERack: Mmhmm.

pjasper: But it's a lifestyle. Like science is not a job. It's a lifestyle. So I don't think I'll ever per se retire. Go ahead.

YEEERack: Well, that's one of the reasons I wanted to ask that is because that to me is an indicator that you can't not do something. And that's a good indication of whether or not you should pursue that as a career path. Now we'll dive into that more for sure.

pjasper: yes

YEEERack: But I was curious, like, do you see a future where you, you know, hang up your cleats as it were.

pjasper: Yes.

YEEERack: And then at that point you say, well, now I'm retired, but by definition I'm semi -professional as a woodworker.

pjasper: I don't know. When I'm doing science, I love it and I can't imagine not doing it.

Tile: when i'm doing science

YEEERack: Okay.

Tile: love it and i can't

pjasper: And when I'm doing woodworking, I love it and I can't imagine not doing it.

Murr: you

Tile: i'm doing

pjasper: And when I do one to the exclusion of the other,

Tile: my one other

pjasper: It's really not good. Like if all I do is science all the time, I feel like something's missing.

Tile: all i

pjasper: And if all I do is woodworking all the time, I hate it.

YEEERack: Hmm.

Tile: all

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: So for me, that tells me a lot right there.

Tile: so for me that tells wow right there

pjasper: Do not go full time into woodworking because when I'm in the shop and Mary, I'll let you say what you want to say so bad in just a sec.

Tile: not

pjasper: When I'm in the shop eight hours a day for like a period of time, let's say there's a holiday or whatever, and I'm in the shop for long hours, I'm like, get me the fuck out of here.

Tile: i'm gonna shop eight hours a day like

Tile: um

pjasper: This is I just three to four three to four hours is like my max where I'm happiest after four hours, my happiness starts to decline in the shop.

Tile: mark happy

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: Go ahead, Mary.

Murr: Well, I was gonna say just because I relate it's so much to that statement, anytime anyone ever asks me, like my answer is so definitive. Absolutely not. I need the two to stay balanced as a person mentally and physically, just everything about it. I need, I can't do one without the other and I don't want to do one without the other. So I like having, you know, my day job and i you and I, Paul, are in unique situations where we actually are passionate about what we do for jobs. That is not always the case for most people. Some people just work to get by to get to their hobby. And I think that is that's the audience that this question might be more geared towards of like, when do I have the capabilities of making that switch? but

Murr: For now, like you and I are very content in our current shops, we're passionate about it. um I don't know if like UX design says not necessarily like my passion, but design in general is, and I like having different avenues of design thinking. So those are those are probably my you know main answers whenever I get asked.

pjasper: Very, very well spoken, Mary. I love that answer. um I wanna bring it back to a series of questions now that will help someone in the audience listening sort of diagnose, you know, I hear ah Mary, you you said this, I hear all the time, you know, should I go full -time?

Tile: period

Tile: your audience diagnose you know your're ordinary

pjasper: What do you think? What should I do? You know, I hear that all the time on social media.

Tile: agree that

pjasper: And so i we have a series of of of talking points I think we'd like to move through and we'd like the reaction of Eric, who is the full -timer in this crew, right?

Tile: and

pjasper: And Mary and I, who are not,

Tile: as well

pjasper: So, sure.

Murr: Can I ask Eric a quick question?

Tile: you

Murr: what What would you call yourself like a full -time blank?

YEEERack: Oh, full -time small business owner, because I think any small business owner does 7 ,000 fucking things. um And you have to be a marketer, you have to be you know a producer of goods, of objects, of content, whatever it is. um So I think if I were, the way that I identify is as a woodworker. That's that's my core identity, so I still, want to think of myself as that more than anything and everything else is just the the kind of the business aspect of it.

pjasper: Okay, so the first question I feel like someone should ask themself, and Eric, you alluded to this issue, is why do you want to go full time?

Tile: why you find

pjasper: Why do you want to do that?

Tile: Why do you want to be that?

pjasper: Is it because you think you can make more money? Is it because you think it'll be fun like your hobby is now? Or is it because it's a compulsion? You love doing that thing so much that that is literally the only career you can imagine yourself doing.

YEEERack: That's, I think that is the fundamental question and how you answer that question determines what you should do. I mean, if if we're going to boil it down to its basic components, right? If you love doing this thing, if this is a thing that just brings you so much joy and you don't have the amount of experience, the hours of experience that say Paul does where he recognizes at this point after years of doing it, that after three to four hours in the shop,

YEEERack: and get pretty burnt out and I'm pretty tired of it like that that is valuable information and I think what happens a lot of the time is we get so sucked into this thing that we just become obsessed with that we ignore all of the other things that are happening we go I want to do that Also, whatever the thing is, your're you're tired of your job, you're, you're, you know, not happy in your your home life, you just have this distraction that you can focus on of this goal. And when we move toward goals, we're often happier than when we actually achieve the goal, right? So there's this illusion, this oasis of being a full time woodworker that comes into play. But

YEEERack: I think as I was kind of sitting with this question today, the the only analogy that I could come up with was like that of a relationship. And there are some people who get into long -term relationships and they get married or they just stay long -term partners. And if you ask them about their partner, if they're like, yeah, they're, ah they're fine. They're okay. You know, they're there. And it's like, that's, I mean, I'm glad that you are in a relationship that you seem to be content with, but also like you don't seem to be happy about it.

YEEERack: And if you spend too much time around that person, you're like, can you just get the fuck out of my face? Like, can you just leave me the fuck I got my own shit to do, right?

Murr: Haha.

YEEERack: ah Versus there are those people out there that exist that are like, no, this, this is my human. This is my person. And there was never any doubt that this was going to be the relationship I was in. And no matter the ups and downs that come, they have that um ability to be content and happy in that relationship. I think if that is the thing after years of of pursuing woodworking that you come down on, that you can't not do it, compulsion I think is the the kind of operative word there. If you can't not do it, then then it's the thing that you should do.

pjasper: So Eric, did you recognize that woodworking was your only, like the only path that would really make you happy?

YEEERack: Yeah, I mean, I think there were other paths that I could be kind of content with, that I could look at it and go, it is a job, it has meaning, and you know I can pay the bills with it. I don't think any of those jobs, I think of the three of us, I'm unique in that I didn't have a career path that led toward a kind of higher income. I think I had that that kind of blue collar glass ceiling if we can mix metaphors there. um And I know that's dangerous. I know I saw those eyes fall. I know that was dangerous. But like, you know, you know what I'm trying to say, right? There was a limit to the the realistic income that I was going to make.

YEEERack: Um, and, and so to me, there was never any question, like if it's all going to be within that range, then I would rather go do this thing, then spend my life dreaming of doing it whilst doing something else. I would rather go chase this.

pjasper: Do you, do you hit the wall like I do after three or four hours or is that like just the warm up period?

Tile: i do

YEEERack: No, I can, I can, I can be in the shop for 12 hours and not think about it.

Tile: yeah

pjasper: That's fantastic.

YEEERack: Yeah. I do it like regularly. There are times where like, I'll be in the shop, whatever it is. I could be just making a thing or it could be teaching. Like I'll go in at six 30, 7 a .m. and then work till nine, teach nine to five, and then stay in the shop till eight. And like, it's not, it's not a thing.

Tile: Thank you.

YEEERack: It's not hard.

pjasper: Eric, Eric, that means you chose correctly to me.

YEEERack: Right. Right.

pjasper: Because I used to be able to, i you know, we used to have these like, in grad school, we used to have these sort of study groups about, we'd read papers and discuss the science of this or that, and hours would go by like minutes, three, four, five hours would go by, and I wasn't satiated.

Tile: i used to be

Murr: hu

Tile: you know

pjasper: I wasn't tired, I wasn't satiated.

YEEERack: Mmhmm.

pjasper: It was like, it just, just, Like you said, I can just do this almost endlessly.

YEEERack: Mmhmm.

pjasper: I forget to eat, and you know it doesn't even matter.

Tile: doesn't even matter

pjasper: You didn't even give a shit, right?

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: So that is such a good sign that that is like something that occupies your mind in such a glorious state of flow that you can do that thing for so many hours.

Tile: so

YEEERack: Mmhmm.

Tile: what

pjasper: I feel like you chose very wisely. And you also brought up the next topic, which I think is the economics of it.

Tile: also

pjasper: You were talking about if like you know how much will I make? So can we talk, you know, if someone's thinking about making this change, there's the economics of it should be considered from the starting economics, Eric, which you brought up, what, what does that mean to start a new business and the sustainability economics?

Tile: so

Tile: economics

YEEERack: Well, before, before we touch that, I just kind of want to close the, the sentence from before the paragraph.

pjasper: Sure.

Tile: sure

pjasper: Go ahead.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Um, so if it is not a thing that you are not, that you don't have a compulsion to do. Like if you can do something else, you should do that because. the woodworking that we're talking about is essentially being an independent artist. That's not running a woodworking business. Those are two separate things running a production business and being an artist are two separate things. So if you can do anything else, go do that. Cause it's fucking hard to do this full time.

YEEERack: If you want to have a business mind, go ahead.

pjasper: well And that's the fact that this is hard as a full time is our fourth topic.

Tile: you

pjasper: So we're gonna cover that.

YEEERack: Okay. So what we'll get there, we'll get there.

pjasper: in Yeah, we're gonna cover that.

YEEERack: But if you do have a business mind and you're interested in growing business, I think there is opportunity there. That's not how my mind works. And I don't think that's how your minds work. So I want to clarify that that's where we're coming from. We're not coming from a business inward working standpoint. Uh, that said, yeah, there are, go ahead.

Murr: And also like, there are also different definitions of full time. Sorry, I didn't, I didn't mean that question, but I mean, there are different kinds of full time careers within this market.

YEEERack: Can you define it for me?

pjasper: Yeah.

Murr: So, oh my God, you guys, you know, like, are you going to be a furniture maker or a teacher or content creator or like a production company?

YEEERack: Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but that's a fair point.

YEEERack: Or or a designer in a furniture shop, you know, like there's absolutely.

Murr: Yeah, exactly. So being able to identify your strengths and identify if you want to make that switch into that field is essential.

YEEERack: Yeah, the.

pjasper: And that's our sixth topic is the different paths you could take.

Tile: Thank

YEEERack: OK, all right, we'll get there, we'll get there.

pjasper: So, you know we we have like a ah really nice roadmap in front of us.

Murr: Okay.

pjasper: So topic two, the economics of starting and sustaining as a full -time.

Tile: you.

YEEERack: So the economic but economics, economics.

YEEERack: So the path that I took, which is by no means the only path, but I do think that it is the safest path was that I had a full -time job for a number of years as I was trying to figure it out. And that job shifted, right? Like I was a gymnastics coach. I was a woodshop teacher. I worked in cabinet shops. I was everything. and I always had my business going on in the background. I always made sure that I had a place to work. Now, that place was not always glorious. For a number of years, I was working in an unheated one -car garage with no windows, and in the winter, I would turn a propane heater on until I could not breathe and then opened up the garage door.

Murr: Oh my God.

YEEERack: I did not say it was a healthy choice, but it was the choice that needed to be made.

Murr: That is terrible. oh

YEEERack: Oh, yeah, no, I took I took at least two years off my life.

Tile: Thank

pjasper: Eric.

YEEERack: That's fine. um But but the point is this.

Murr: No space heaters? Like what?

YEEERack: Yeah, no, that was bad.

pjasper: A propane?

YEEERack: I literally just took the oxygen out of the room and then opened up the door to let it back in.

pjasper: Yeah.

Tile: you.

Murr: It makes it easier to get through the day.

YEEERack: and But hey,

YEEERack: Yeah, you know, you just get a little high. That's fine. So but but what that allowed me to do was to slowly develop my skill set over a number of years and to slowly build up the equipment that I was taking on. Right. I would do trades with people to get new equipment. ah You know, and by the time I moved into this shop after whatever it was, eight, nine years of doing that. Then I had enough equipment to start a shop and I didn't have to go into debt to open a business, which is a thing that so many people do coming out of school. They come out and they go, Oh my God, I want to be a woodworker. And then they dropped 30 grand on equipment. And then for the next, however many months or years, they're busy paying that off instead of having an income.

pjasper: All right, so you mentioned 30 grand on equipment.

Tile: thirty grand

pjasper: How much does it cost to get a basic woodshop started with like your basic machines? I get this question all the time.

Murr: hahaha

Tile: i get this question all

pjasper: What's your shop worth?

YEEERack: yeah

pjasper: How much money do you have in your shop?

YEEERack: depends on the the level of equipment you're going for. Like if you're if you're going contractor grade, you can probably do it for five grand.

pjasper: Okay, and what if you're doing pro prosumer?

YEEERack: If you if if you're if you're doing legitimate equipment.

Tile: and what if you're doing

YEEERack: I mean, I would, I would struggle to put it below 30 to 40 grand. Realistically. And that's for, that's for basics. That's not for luxury shit. That is just table saw, joiner, planer, dust collection. Uh, maybe some kind of repetitive machine, like a shaper origin or, or, uh, a low grade CNC or a laser cut or something like that. Like you're kind of basic eight to 10 pieces of equipment.

Tile: you

YEEERack: I mean, you're talking, you're talking 40 grand.

pjasper: Mary, how much have you put into your shop?

Murr: I'm in a very fortunate situation in which my shop mate is a full -time woodworker, so she has brought most of her equipment and she's bought most of the equipment.

YEEERack: Hahaha

Murr: I've brought in something, so I have a lot of like the smaller tools and a lot of the festival things. um I bought the like the bandsaw and you know storage organization, so I cannot speak to that because I am basically taking advantage of her. um

YEEERack: I mean, yeah that that makes it sound negative.

Murr: But yeah.

YEEERack: It was agreed upon.

Murr: It was agreed upon, yes.

YEEERack: yeah now i guess You're not manipulating the situation.

Murr: It was. No, no, no. where We both knew exactly what we were bringing to the table when we cut when we came into this agreement of we're going to be in the witch hub together.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: We both were desperate to have our own space and we trust each other as ah people working in woodchops.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: I think that was the biggest thing.

pjasper: Mm.

Murr: We were just so so tired of being in spaces where you couldn't trust the machines anymore. you couldn't make like you know Things were just left everywhere and just it was a nightmare.

YEEERack: Uh

Murr: So we both knew that coming in and we also know that if one of us moves out, then the other person. if My shop baby was out. I'm not gonna have much of a witch hop left, so I understand that I might need to figure something out then. If I leave, then she'll be missing certain things too, but not as much. So, yeah.

pjasper: ah Yeah, I would estimate my shop's probably worth 20 to 30k of equipment.

Tile: you

YEEERack: -huh.

pjasper: I bought almost all of it used. I highly recommend buying used machines because all machines have idiosyncrasies, even new ones have some idiosyncrasies.

YEEERack: Hmm.

Murr: Mm -hmm.

YEEERack: A hundred percent.

pjasper: And the sooner you learn your machines, the better you can just kind of get a feel for what their peculiarities are. And it doesn't matter if they're new or used. I got a 12 I remember I got a 12, like my joiner for example, it's a 12 inch joiner, helical head, grizzly, huge in feed and out feed table, 1300 bucks used from a cabinet shop who was upgrading.

Tile: my

Tile: Yes.

Murr: Oh, wow.

YEEERack: Yep. Yep.

pjasper: Yeah. Awesome. All day.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: Yes, please.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: and And is it perfect? Absolutely not. The beds are at max and they're not quite coplanar all the time, but they're coplanar enough that I can get away with it.

YEEERack: Yep.

pjasper: Like, so yeah, there's going to be some, some idiosyncrasies with every machine.

Murr: that

YEEERack: But that's the, that's the case. Like you said, with new machines as well.

pjasper: It is.

Murr: Yeah.

pjasper: It is.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: And some of the older ones that are better quality anyway, like some of the newer ones are just not built

pjasper: So it is.

Tile: so

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: you

Murr: to the same standard.

pjasper: It is.

YEEERack: Yep.

pjasper: So for those who don't mind understanding the machines and working through the idiosyncrasies, like any good relationship, I recommend you i recommend you ah buying used.

YEEERack: this is

pjasper: You'll get a lot more for your money. And the second ah cost is is wood. I actually have, I would say, $5 ,000 to $8 ,000 worth of wood that I bought.

YEEERack: I'm probably somewhere in that same range. Yeah.

Murr: Oh my god, I cannot relate to that, but well, Hmm, now I think about it.

YEEERack: I mean, also in fairness, I have. 12, 14 years of material that I've essentially been collecting.

Murr: Yes.

Tile: you

YEEERack: And then what I'm always intentional about doing, this is how that happens, right? Because you don't just go, oh, great, I've got an extra eight grand lying around. You know what I should do? Should make a run to Hearn. um

pjasper: No, it's a little bit at a time.

YEEERack: yeah Right. And so every project, number one, when you're pricing out a project for materials, you always count ten into 20 % dead, right?

Murr: Yeah.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: So you just build that in. And then hopefully, sometimes you get a little bit extra. But also what happens is sometimes you see the right piece of material, like you get a fletch, you get a handful of pieces of material that works for the project, but then you end up using 50 % of it. So you build it up that way over the years. And then when stuff runs out, you replace it. And then next thing you know, you've got a large collection.

Murr: Yeah, I could easily see i that happening. i'm I'm realizing now that I'm not in that situation, because I was always in a shared shop where I had to pay for storage.

YEEERack: Yep.

Murr: And if I had any scrap pieces, I was like, Oh, no, I can't, I can't like leave this year, it's gonna cost me money.

YEEERack: Yep.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: So I always try to like burn through it or, you know, sell it or give it away.

pjasper: So that's about the the starting costs.

Tile: you

pjasper: How about the running and sustaining costs? Eric, can you give me an example of like a new woodworker who goes full time and who's making a product, right? What do you think the first few years are going to look like in terms of income typically? I know it's i know there's a huge variability, but can you give give me a ballpark?

YEEERack: there Yeah, there's a massive variability. As far as the income to the business versus the the individual.

pjasper: Like, like, yeah, the individual, like, how much do you think an individual would make their first few years?

Tile: yeah

Tile: you

YEEERack: um

pjasper: Typically.

YEEERack: Sub 10 to 20.

pjasper: Wow, that little.

YEEERack: That would be my guess.

pjasper: Oh, I thought it was more than that.

YEEERack: No, no.

pjasper: Okay.

YEEERack: Well, and again, this is coming from ah a small business like one to two person shop. In this case, if they're starting out one person shop, like yeah you don't come out of the gate. There's I should say there's very, very few people who come out of the gate hot and become desirable names off the jump. Like that's like Derek Jeter coming up through the miners in 96.

pjasper: Mm.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Like it just that's a rare thing that happens. Nobody does that.

Murr: But what if they've already established themselves as a hobbyist in that world?

YEEERack: Well, and that's the difference. And so, so that is the difference. This is what I mean by the, the advantage that I had was having that full -time job and building up a client base while I was doing that. I think the first year that, um, I went full -time again, I think I did 50, I want to say, um,

pjasper: Yeah, Eric. Yeah, I think that's it.

Tile: yeah that

pjasper: I think with an established clientele as a first year, like that's established, right?

Tile: think with

Tile: yeah

pjasper: You already did the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

YEEERack: but But that was five years in the making though, right?

Tile: Yeah.

YEEERack: So that's not that's not coming out of school or just like deciding one day I'm gonna quit my job and be a woodworker.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: That's building up clients and business relationships in the content world and all of those things and some respectability to the point where I could come out and do 50. And let me tell you guys, that was the biggest hustle of my life. Like that that was 50 that I fucking scrapped for.

pjasper: Wow.

YEEERack: Uh, so like it's not, it it takes a long time to set up a business flow.

pjasper: Yeah.

pjasper: It doesn't come easy. Now, Mary, you and I have the economics of a tech or a science degree, uh, to bounce against that reality of say, you know, Oh, Paul, we need to go full time.

YEEERack: No.

Tile: and i have the

Tile: down

Tile: oh

pjasper: Mary, we need to go full time.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm.

pjasper: And it's like, if you take those economics versus a design degree, like you have it, you know, Adobe or, or I have in science, I mean, the economics of those types of degrees are very, very different animals.

Murr: Oh, yeah.

Tile: you those

Murr: Oh, yeah, the the amount of times that Eric makes fun of me for liking to go to nice restaurants.

YEEERack: Being a bougie bitch.

Murr: There is no way I could support my lifestyle being a full -time woodworker.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm.

Murr: I would I

pjasper: Yeah.

Murr: I like making money and I went to school for so long for it so I do not want to get rid of that.

Tile: you

pjasper: Yeah, I know talking about money is taboo, but as I said, this is the podcast that doesn't give a shit about convention. And so, we you know, we talk about

YEEERack: Well, and and also in fairness, I don't mean to cut you off. But in fairness, one of the most valuable things about the maker community is that we're very open about money. And that makes everybody feel more at ease. And you know, nobody's trying to hide shit.

pjasper: Yeah. ah So so the absolutely, Eric. that's And I think that's brilliant. The point Mary and I as hobbyists are are speaking to is you have a choice of two things you love.

Tile: obviously how

pjasper: yeah One of which has a much more ah attainable, like, in or is is much more, how do you say this?

Tile: yeah wonderful the more

Tile: or or

pjasper: Gosh, I'm i'm struggling for the words.

Tile: one

pjasper: One pays better than the other. Let's just, do you know, one pays better than the other, quite frankly, typically, and not in every case, right?

YEEERack: Yeah, yeah.

Murr: hahaha

Tile: that

pjasper: So, you know, you love these two things.

Tile: so you love

pjasper: You know, I think you owe it to yourself to think about the economics of the two things you love and what does it make sense to do full time and what does it make sense to do as a hobby.

Tile: um she was

pjasper: And and so I think for for me and Mary, that decision was fairly easy for the two of us.

Tile: think mean married

YEEERack: I think the advantage that you two have, I've sat with this for a number of years, and the the the conclusion that I've come to, and please push back on me if you think that I'm wrong or if you have differing opinions on this, the economics of any situation typically works out that the people who think get paid more than the people who do. I think that's just generally how it works.

pjasper: I hate that. I hate that.

YEEERack: And, and, but, but that doesn't mean that the people who do can't be great thinkers. So what happens is your professions are typically seen as thinking professions, whereas my profession is seen as a doing profession, but, but

pjasper: I hate that.

Tile: i hate

pjasper: But I can't say or that the data doesn't support what you're saying.

Murr: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

YEEERack: Right, right. But how many people do both of you work with who don't have any fucking original ideas who just do the thing that you tell them to do? And I bet in your social hierarchy, nobody takes them very seriously. They just get paid kind of the economic wage, ah you know, the standard of where it exists. Whereas in in my world, the people who

pjasper: Can I tell you?

Tile: you

YEEERack: can take what they're doing and think and apply it differently. It doesn't matter what you're building, right? You could be building furniture, you could be making art, you could be building houses. The people who are really good at problem solving and creating new solutions do end up typically making a good living.

pjasper: Do you know what I hate about? and No, you're right. ah Eric, that is my experience too. What I hate about that is the doing is so hard also.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm.

pjasper: like The thinking is it can be difficult. at times you know I guess I gravitate more towards that part, but the that doing, the physicality of and the the sheer exhaustion and perseverance is so hard.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: And it's to think that that's not valued as much because I do both.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: wow both

pjasper: like I do you know like let's let ah hate these terms, but like we're thinking during the day.

Tile: agree

pjasper: i hate i just I don't know.

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: It makes me skin and crawl.

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: I hate to say that because as we're wordworking, we're thinking too. But yes, the the sort of ivory tower, you're thinking during the day and then at night, you're wordworking.

Tile: yeah

pjasper: and they're both equally taxing, they're equally exhausting for different reasons, but for some reason they seem to be valued differently. Now, all right, so can can we stick a pin in this? Because I feel like this is this is like, yeah.

YEEERack: Okay, all right, because this is a good conversation, but but we're gonna go off down some fucking rabbit holes right now.

pjasper: yeah

pjasper: Okay, okay, so the third piece, like I want to stick a pin in the in the in economics because like I think there's a whole episode here.

Tile: okay okay

Tile: you

pjasper: I hope everyone's not all hot and bothered to keep going on that run. um Is it okay to have a job and be a hobbyist? I feel like there's some inertia that says, you're less if you're a hobbyist, you're not that serious.

Murr: are fighting words.

Murr: I mean, I feel

YEEERack: paul Paul likes to piss people off.

Murr: very strongly about like hobbies being important to who you are as a person. Like for me, that's how I I don't know. That's why I think it rounds me out. i I very much enjoy keeping woodworking as a hobby. Well, I guess my question for you, Paul, is like, what makes you ask that question? What's the argument behind it?

pjasper: I feel like there's some inertia that the word hobby has this, this attachment to it that it's like, it's not that serious.

Tile: feel like they's word

Murr: Hmm.

pjasper: You're not that serious about it.

YEEERack: Well, I think serious is a critical word there, because i'm I'm wondering about the history of the word hobby, right? Like the entomology. Etymology? Etymology. Not entomology. Entomology is the study of bugs, is it not?

Murr: Bugs, yep.

YEEERack: ah The etymology of it.

pjasper: That's right.

Tile: That's right.

YEEERack: So yeah i'm i'm I'm thinking specifically about like the gentleman's saw, right? The gent's saw. So I think the word hobby came about after this, the invention of leisure, right? Like the the working the nine to five job and you have spare time. And that then implies that you have income and time to spend on a hobby. And therefore by definition, you're not taking it very seriously because it's a leisurely activity.

pjasper: i have the etymology

Tile: you

pjasper: if you would care

YEEERack: Okay, go on, please. tell me that tellm me Tell me the entomology. If you could define hobby for me, please.

pjasper: in the third

Murr: Was he right? Was Eric right?

pjasper: In the 13th century, the word hobby referred to a small horse or a pony. It later came to describe yeah and later came to describe a toy horse or a hobby horse.

Murr: What?

YEEERack: Mmm.

pjasper: It's from the hobby horse that the words modern sense of favorite pastime evolve.

Murr: oh

pjasper: A hobby is something that you do for fun, not money. And you typically do it fairly regularly.

Murr: Wait, i don't and how does it relate to the horse part?

Tile: so five

YEEERack: A hobby horse?

pjasper: hobby horse.

Tile: ah

pjasper: It was a hobby horse and then it turned into a hobby.

YEEERack: A hobby horse is a shitty tiny horse.

pjasper: Like a hobby horse is like a, yeah, like it's a toy horse.

Tile: yeah

Murr: Okay.

YEEERack: The one time we actually give her a definition and she's confused.

Tile: its good

pjasper: Oh my God. Yeah.

Tile: for those that don't know mary

pjasper: For those that don't know, Mary asked for us to define shit every goddamn episode. I don't know why, but anyway,

Murr: I'm just saying, I like being clear.

Tile: but

pjasper: Okay, being clear, back on topic then.

Tile: there topic

pjasper: So the the issue is, I think a lot of people, there's this inertia or this this this feeling that if you say, I'm a hobbyist, you're not good and you're not serious.

Murr: Okay.

Tile: think the nurser that

Tile: But it is good.

pjasper: And I don't know that that's the case.

Tile: i go

pjasper: is You can be a hobbyist and you can be very serious and you can be quite good.

Tile: you

pjasper: And they I feel like it shouldn't be a bad word like it is.

YEEERack: I agree with you, it shouldn't be a bad word because some of the best woodworkers I know are hobbyists. I wonder how much of that kind of snootiness is linked to our innate Western capitalistic intentions of if you are good, you should do it for profit. It should drive you to grow versus just being good for good sake.

pjasper: Mm -hmm.

YEEERack: Because if you're if you are a hobbyist who then makes money doing it, you're still a hobbyist, but almost every single person to a T and I was just as guilty of this as anybody else says, I'm a semi professional.

pjasper: Mm.

YEEERack: Right, like there's there is a hierarchy of if I'm good enough to make money, then I'm no longer a hobbyist.

Tile: you

pjasper: Oh.

YEEERack: Hobbyist has that ink that, you know, there's something about it that says like, ah, I'm just learning.

Murr: Hmm.

pjasper: Hmm.

Murr: I could see that. I mean, I feel like I wonder if that, uh, meeting for hobbyist is also maybe an older way of thinking because these days you can back up your work so easily by showing, you know, like your Instagram or portfolio or whatever, even if you're a hobbyist, like, Oh yeah, no, I'm good because you can like, I can prove it real quick to you. Like, I don't know, I just don't know if people think that way anymore.

YEEERack: Well also, can i can I risk being a dick real quick?

pjasper: Oh, I mean, of course on this podcast, Eric, Eric on this podcast.

Tile: oh

Murr: Okay.

Tile: i mean

Murr: I mean, that's just, that that's just, I feel like that's every podcast for you.

Tile: this

YEEERack: There is.

YEEERack: I mean, that's how I live my life. ah There is there is no telltale sign more clear that a person is seeking validation in their work than when they take their phone out and they say, let me show you an image of it, you know, because it is a thing that says, like, I don't believe

Murr: Okay, fair, yes.

YEEERack: that I am considered like an amateur, a seasoned hobbyist, whatever.

Murr: ah

YEEERack: So I need to then prove it versus at some point. And I think we all get to this point over years and projects where we just go, yeah, no, I make shit. I guess I don't give a shit if you believe me. Like I so i still make shit.

Murr: Okay, I should clarify it not coming from you, I guess, but your work is so easily you can your work can be looked like researched upon from other people who want to know your work and they may not realize that you're a hobbyist. So they might be like, Oh, yeah, I know, like hopper pick stuff and and not even realize that Paul is not a full time woodworker. I feel like that is so much easier for people to look up these days than having to like rely by rely on like I don't know, word of, I don't know, just hearing it from other people.

YEEERack: It's fair?

pjasper: Um, well, Eric, because you're being a dick, I would like to, to give a counterpoint, ah which is I just, I, I give a talk recently on design at North Bennett street school and and Lexington arts council in, in Lexington mass.

Tile: would like No,

YEEERack: Okay.

YEEERack: Humble brag.

pjasper: And no, no, bitch. No, no, no. I just wanted to say where, no, I just wanted to mention where I was giving the talk.

Tile: just

YEEERack: I'm very proud of you, buddy.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: I just wanted to shit on you.

Tile: know

pjasper: Dick. Um,

YEEERack: Hmmm.

Tile: no.

pjasper: But what I did at the talk is I started it by encouraging people to show each other their Instagrams.

Tile: but

pjasper: Stop being so goddamn like, oh, I'm too cool for school. yeah You know, I don't have to show you anything. I'm like, let's be vulnerable.

Tile: like let's on let go

pjasper: Let's show each other what we're working on. Let's talk about collaborating. Let's show each other our work and talk about designs.

Tile: you

pjasper: So actually I go the opposite way. I encourage them to take out their phones and show each other what they're working on because that is the genesis of collaborations and talking about stuff.

YEEERack: It's a fair counterpoint. And I think there is I don't I'm not trying to be an asshole.

pjasper: Thank you.

YEEERack: It was just a funny thing that popped into my head because because it is it seems it's so naturally, you know, grew up in an Italian New York household.

Murr: it just comes so instinctually

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay

YEEERack: What do you want?

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay

YEEERack: um

pjasper: and So next topic, next topic. So hobbyist is not a bad word, right? Okay.

YEEERack: It is not.

pjasper: So the next topic is, so let's say you do want to go full time. Full time is hard.

Murr: It just comes so

pjasper: Let's talk about that. Let's start by all the reasons that being full time is difficult and a challenge.

Tile: by all the evening

Murr: instinctually.

Tile: being full

pjasper: And like, but not not to dissuade you from going full time, but let's talk about some of the challenges. Number one, creativity on demand.

Tile: one

pjasper: Like that's tough, right?

Murr: Mm hmm.

pjasper: Eric, you you spoke recently how, you know, you've been so under the gun, the burnout, the pressure of producing all the time, producing videos, producing pieces.

Tile: john burn out

pjasper: Creativity on demand is very draining.

YEEERack: It is draining. um And there are times where you just have to get it done and it becomes a muscle memory thing. It's like doing any, like I'm sure you can science without thinking.

pjasper: Okay.

YEEERack: That's a thing. and Sciences have ever been this.

pjasper: Well, no, no, you just get good at the thing, right?

Tile: no

YEEERack: You know, yeah, you get good at the thing.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: And like you can marry, I'm sure you can lay out a webpage on demand.

Murr: Sure.

YEEERack: That's a thing that you do, right?

pjasper: Mary's not a web designer.

Tile: you

YEEERack: i don't know I don't know what the fuck she does. She just says, I'm a UX all the time. I'm like, what's that, a UTI?

Murr: Oh my god!

YEEERack: I don't know what the fuck. ah so So there, you you develop these skillsets that you can rely on, but what ends up happening is if you want to continue to push yourself and grow, then you end up um frustrated in, in kind of the loop of a client wants it by this date. And here's how I know to resolve that problem.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: So I'm going to resolve it in a very similar way.

pjasper: And Eric, you talked about that.

Tile: eric you talked about that you're like i know

pjasper: You're like, I know, like I relied on my typical book of tricks that I know pleases people, but it's not challenging me.

Tile: like i relied on

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: So like, there's that, there's that personal fulfillment versus like just satisfying the customer to get the job done on time.

Tile: like there's

YEEERack: yeah

pjasper: Right. Uh, another, another, uh, uh, is another issue is the repetition of it.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: Sorry. I had some whiskey. Uh,

YEEERack: Really struggled on that one.

pjasper: I did, I did, I had two huge glasses of whiskey.

Tile: did

Murr: How many drinks have we had here?

pjasper: another another Another issue is repetition. Does repetition steal your creative spark?

YEEERack: For me it does, but for some people, and I know we've touched on this in the past, for some people they thrive under repetition. Like some people are repetition artists and they do their best work kind of tweaking things here and there and developing through iteration.

Murr: yeah

Tile: you

pjasper: Yeah.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: And that's okay. Like they're there. One is not better than the other.

pjasper: Yeah, that's true.

Murr: Yeah, and also production, people who do production, that's so much repetition, but at that point, it's just a level that you're used to, and that's all you want to do.

YEEERack: Yeah.

YEEERack: yeah

pjasper: I think of bowl turners for some reason.

Tile: the

pjasper: They seem always to be like production, his production mindset.

YEEERack: yep

pjasper: Although I do want to recall, and I know I mentioned this in a previous episode, and and Eric, you said this, that sometimes like design ideas come through that repetition when your mind is not completely occupied.

Tile: although i do want

Tile: that

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: you

YEEERack: yeah

pjasper: You've done it a thousand times. so You have a little brain bit of brainwaves open to think about your next design idea.

Tile: thousand

pjasper: um

YEEERack: I believe you said those thoughts come when you're washing your ball sack, if I remember correctly.

Tile: you

Murr: Mm hmm.

pjasper: That's exactly, yes, yes, in fact, in fact, in fact, I did not use any of those words, you prick.

Murr: Dear God.

Murr: I think he said in the shower.

pjasper: ah I did say shower.

YEEERack: I'm pretty sure he said when you're washing your sack.

pjasper: I did not say wash, I said washing your junk.

Murr: Oh, my God.

YEEERack: Okay, all right. Six and one half dozen the other.

pjasper: Okay. Okay. Next is the idea of hustle and burnout. Eric, you've spoken to that recently because you're, you're so in, you've put so much into this business and you just don't want it to fail.

YEEERack: Yup.

Tile: so

Tile: so

pjasper: So you're willing to hustle burnout. You work too much. Um, and I think we know that working too much, Mary is related to our happiness.

YEEERack: Well,

Tile: know

YEEERack: Hmm That's the kind of honest truth you come to this podcast for right there I Think I think in unsung or or not off disgust I should say ah part of that is um Money insecurity

Murr: yeah What? I don't know what we you're talking about. I'm always happy and never wear too much every of my life.

Tile: you

Murr: but

pjasper: Mmm.

YEEERack: Right? So when you have a job, you go to that job, presumably 40 hours a week, or in Mary's case, 107 hours a week.

Murr: hahahaha

YEEERack: And you, you know, you're either salaried or you're going to get overtime.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Like what, you know, that your paycheck is going to clear, right? And you know what you're going to get paid roughly. When you run a business, you know what you're going to get paid for the next couple of weeks. And then after that. Like you just, you have that thing for me, particularly who didn't come from money. And I think most people ah who are running a small business have some, some iteration of this. You have this thing of just like, well, what if I don't get the next job? And then, then you hustle and then you take on more than you can chew. And then next thing you know, you're buried under work and you burn out. And so it's, it's a really hard thing to accept the.

YEEERack: hope that you have done enough to have your business run and not overbook yourself. Cause I think that like for me specifically, that's where my burnout always comes from is I just go, yeah, I have to say yes, because what if nobody else calls me up and what if it all just fucking stops after that one? And then next thing you know, I've got six months to make four projects plus all of these contracts for content. And I'm like, I can't fucking do it all. I'm just, I can't.

Murr: Okay, question. At what point would it, at what point now, like how long would you have to have not worked or produced content for you to have to take another like pottery barn job?

pjasper: Pottery Barn.

YEEERack: um

pjasper: Did you work at Pottery Barn?

YEEERack: ri I did not, but I like this idea.

Murr: No, you did a replica, right? You did like a replica of a pottery barn table.

YEEERack: Oh, that one okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right, all right, all right.

pjasper: Uh...

YEEERack: That's fair, that's fair. I was like, did I work at Pottery Barn? ah

Murr: but Do I know you better?

YEEERack: You might. um it ah So I have about six to eight months um that I could live off of. Uh, so, and that's, that's, that's very good for, for what I'm doing. Like I'm very happy with that. And there's no indication that anything would slow to that point. Um, and I know that I could, I'm marketable enough to be able to find a job in that time, if that were to happen. Um, which I think now I'm finally realizing, okay, I need to stop hustling so goddamn much and figure out.

YEEERack: In what direction do I want to take the momentum of the business for the long term?

pjasper: You were doing too much, big guy. You were burnt out.

YEEERack: I was doing too much. I was.

pjasper: I could tell.

Murr: Just throw on another TV show, it's fine.

YEEERack: You know, like sometimes you just gotta, you just gotta to wait till the CW calls, you know?

pjasper: So, so actually we're dancing around our last topic, which is what are the different paths to full time?

Tile: so Thank

pjasper: You know, you're talking about Eric does shows. Well, Eric, wait, time out, time out, time out.

Murr: It hurt us a lot.

Tile: you.

pjasper: eric Eric is not a typical example.

Murr: That is very true, yes.

pjasper: I think eric is is in so Eric just shut up for a minute.

YEEERack: that's That's fair.

pjasper: Eric is insanely talented. he's like And I've said this to him many times face to face. he's capable He does so many things so well.

Tile: so so

pjasper: He can do them. He can do the carpenter. He can do the fine trim guy. He can do the art, you know, one of a kind guy.

Tile: well

pjasper: He can be the life of the party.

Tile: people like

pjasper: He can fade to the background. He can do the show.

Tile: show

pjasper: He can be the content creator.

Tile: thank

pjasper: Like Eric is extremely versatile, one of the most versatile humans.

Tile: eric

pjasper: I know certainly in the woodworking space without a doubt.

Tile: i know

pjasper: So Eric has, ah to to me, a plethora of opportunities at his fingertips due to his natural aptitudes. And Eric, you're just going to shut up and listen to me praise you. Okay. So with that speaking, though, what you know what are the many different paths one can take towards woodworking?

Tile: what are

pjasper: So obviously, the first one that I'll throw out there is like, I like to make furniture, I want commissions, and I just want to make furniture.

Tile: so they like

pjasper: Now, I only know a few people who can make a living at that.

Tile: Thank

pjasper: Just purely that.

Murr: Yeah. I was gonna say, I've talked to Keith about this and his answer is always the same. It's always like, you gotta do something else on the side. Otherwise you're really going to struggle.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: you.

Murr: Like these days, it is so hard to solely be a furniture maker.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: Like you can do teaching on the side or conduct creation or something else. Like it is so hard.

YEEERack: I don't think it's just these days. I think it's always been that way.

Murr: Okay, fair.

YEEERack: I think now now this is this is me because we always look back on the end of the careers of the people who came before us.

Murr: Yeah.

YEEERack: And we think of the Nakashimas, the Maloofs, the the Krenovs, et cetera, et cetera. But Nakashima, for 50 fucking years, was hustling as a farmer, as a carpenter. He was an architect. He didn't just do furniture. And it was the same with Maloof. He was out there doing a hundred things until at some point late in his career, his rocking chair became well known enough to carry his business.

pjasper: Good point.

Tile: you

YEEERack: And so I think it's always been, and even now, the people that we look back on 20 years ago who were doing this, they were writing for fine woodworking, they were teaching in schools, and that's how they became known as furniture makers.

Murr: Uh

YEEERack: So I don't think there's ever been a path to being a furniture maker exclusively if you don't want to live under the poverty line.

Murr: -huh.

YEEERack: I just don't think that that that exists.

Murr: Mm -hm.

pjasper: so So, no, that's a great point.

Tile: great

pjasper: Excellent. And and backed up by a lot of evidence ah from other famous you know woodworkers and their careers.

Tile: and back at by

pjasper: What are some of the other things you can do to supplement?

Tile: are some

Murr: Mm

pjasper: Obviously, teaching is a great one, right?

YEEERack: Teaching is a huge one to every.

pjasper: Because there's always there's always people hungry to learn, right?

Murr: -hm.

YEEERack: Mm -hmm. Every single full -time woodworker that I know. I shouldn't say that 95 % of the full -time woodworkers that I know are also teachers, whether it's once or twice a year, or a lot of them who are known as furniture makers, essentially travel and teach full -time at this point.

pjasper: Yeah.

YEEERack: And they just make a couple of commissions a year. So that is a vibe. And there's a lot of craft schools out there. And once you get into the craft school circuit, like you can but yeah I'll just take Farazuti as an example, because he's a buddy of mine. And I talk about him often enough. I mean, he goes from College of the Redwoods, Mark Adams, CFC, Florida School of Woodworking, Rose, Rosewood, whatever the one in Toronto is, like he just basically circles

Murr: Mm hmm.

YEEERack: Five to eight craft schools and then makes things in between and teaches it all of them once to twice a year So if you're if you're doing eight craft schools twice a year Some of them are one week. Some of them are two weeks. That's three quarters of the year already You know, like it's just That's how you sustain yourself

Tile: you

pjasper: So ah there's two types of teaching, I think. So for the full timers, they're doing as a source of income. For the hobbyists, at least I'm going to speak from my point of view, I teach not for the income. The income is, it's it's great and all. That's fine. But I don't need the income. I have a full -time job. I do it because I feel strongly that if we if we who have been in the field at least like i you know I'm in the field 20 years now, if I don't start to give back, even though I don't feel qualified to give back sometimes, like I don't feel like a master of anything to be honest.

pjasper: But look, if we don't start giving back,

Tile: you

pjasper: Who's going to? like We're the ones who are supposed to start giving back. So like i do I do at least you know one teaching or one like presentation or whatever from time to time because I feel like the field has given me so much. I need to return it to the field because it is part of just keeping the whole thing healthy.

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: So I think even full -time people have their reasons for teaching. Even hobbyists, I think, can have their reasons for teaching. and

YEEERack: I will go ahead. Sorry.

pjasper: Go ahead, go

Tile: now

YEEERack: Uh, I'll be honest, teaching is not the most like I do teach for the money. Like I have to, I gotta pay bills. I could make more money not teaching, but I like teaching is, it brings me so much joy that it's worth taking the pay cut to go teach then to make content or commissions because it's just like I took a week and a half off.

Tile: Go ahead now.

YEEERack: I was in Vermont and then I was in Maine and then I went and did some camping. And I came back and I was talking to to my girlfriend on the phone the other day. She's like, you just seem lighter. Like I just I teaching is so much fucking fun to get to spend time with people who are striving to learn because for what it does for me is it reminds me of where I was 10, 12 years ago, right?

pjasper: yeah

pjasper: Yes.

Tile: you

pjasper: Yes.

YEEERack: And it it ignites that you will never get that same amount of joy from making the first piece that you ever made ever again.

pjasper: Yeah. Yeah.

YEEERack: And the way that you get that is by experiencing it with other people who make that first piece for the first time.

pjasper: Yes. and a yeah like Passion by proxy, right? you you You feel it through them.

YEEERack: Yes.

pjasper: Yeah. so That's great, Eric. and um'm um I think it's awesome you do that. and It actually speaks to the concept of enough. Do you have enough money to have a good life?

YEEERack: Hmm.

pjasper: Then stop prioritizing solely money and prioritize things that bring you joy in addition to money.

YEEERack: Mm hmm.

pjasper: It might not be as much money as you might have made otherwise, but joy is an important component of living a well -rounded life. I think that's really what you're saying.

YEEERack: 100 % It is if you can do it thoughtfully and if you can get lucky

pjasper: And I i i respect that and I admire that in you.

Tile: and

pjasper: um last Last issue about the different paths.

Tile: you

pjasper: So we've talked about teaching and full -time. What about social media and content creation as a new path?

Murr: Mm -hm.

YEEERack: it is the most lucrative path, at least at this moment.

pjasper: Mm.

YEEERack: I don't know how long that will last. It could be the new television. All of the data is pointing to the fact that it is the new television, so it could be around for a long while, or it could be a bubble. I have no idea. But if you can figure out a way The best advice that I ever got was from Annie early on in my career and of all trades who we've been friends for forever. Um, and she told me, get over yourself and start posting on Instagram. This was in like 2018.

pjasper: Thanks.

YEEERack: And it really was like, to your point earlier, Paul, like it was like a, like a pride thing. It was like, ah well, I don't know. It's social media. ah ah And then.

Murr: Were there many other woodworkers on Instagram at that point or no?

YEEERack: Um, yeah, I mean, the OGs, the, yeah, the OGs were, were definitely on there.

Murr: This 2018 is pretty late.

YEEERack: There were a lot of large accounts. Um, I think there were, you know, so like if you had over a hundred thousand on Instagram at that point, you were a big deal.

Murr: Mhm.

YEEERack: Um, but it, it. If you can figure out, it's another business venture. And if you can figure out how to work that into your business plan, then what it does allow you to do is make interesting objects and maintain creative autonomy and creative engagement in a way that some other paths wouldn't necessarily allow you to do.

pjasper: Well said. All right.

Murr: Yeah. And I know like, uh, I guess in the past for YouTube channels, they've said like, Oh, it's the life of the average YouTube channels, like seven years. But at this point, I feel like I know of so many channels now that have outlasted that. And I feel like social media and especially YouTube specifically is only getting stronger right now. So that saying may not be true.

YEEERack: I don't know that it is true anymore. um And I mean, we also got to remember we are still in the the first stage of YouTube. Like, you you know, you can break down overall, but I listen, YouTube is here to stay. All the other platforms are going to come and go. YouTube is here to stay. So I think we are still very much in the first stage, maybe maybe in the early stages of the second phase of YouTube. um And I don't think there is any indication that you can't make a channel that lasts 10 to 20 years.

YEEERack: Like you you could be the the the Bob Ross or the um Mr. Rogers of woodworking if you want it to be.

pjasper: I love Bob Ross.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Who doesn't love Bob Ross? so who who didn't smoke Who didn't smoke a J and fall asleep to Bob Ross in college?

Murr: Just some happy little trees!

pjasper: ah

YEEERack: Come on.

pjasper: Uh, you know, anytime speak. Yeah. Anytime my daughter is sick and home from school, I put on, I, she asked me to put up Bob Ross and she just laid.

Murr: Aww.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: Really?

pjasper: Yeah. She lays on the couch and she's only teenager and she lays on the couch and she listens to those like soothing words of Bob Ross that she like falls in and out of sleep.

YEEERack: It's the pro move. It's a pro move.

Murr: Aww.

pjasper: That's so cute. Oh my God.

Murr: My equivalent, my equivalent of that is National Geographic, always just throwing National Geographic or like Planet Earth or BBC anything.

YEEERack: It's amazing.

YEEERack: Okay, okay.

Murr: Oh, so good.

Tile: you

pjasper: Happy little discussions we just had.

YEEERack: I hope, ah I hope one day that somebody compares me to Roy Underhill. That's my career goal. If I can make that happen, then I will have made it.

pjasper: Oh, we have to get Roy Underhill on the podcast. Let's ask him.

YEEERack: Roy, Roy is one of the best human beings I've ever met.

pjasper: All right, so Roy Underhill, Bob Ross.

Tile: so roy out your hill bo

pjasper: Well, we can't have Bob Ross. But anyway, let's wrap up our discussion about going full time. I think we covered a lot of topics. Why do you want to ask yourself?

Tile: why do we want ask

pjasper: Why do you want to do it?

Tile: why do you

pjasper: Is it so burning hot that it's a compulsion? There's no other thing you can do. All right, go do it. Eric says, unless unless it feels that strong, don't do it.

Murr: Hahaha!

YEEERack: That's where I stand.

pjasper: so so The second point is consider the economics of it, both the startup economics, how to make that work, and the sustainability economics.

YEEERack: That's where I come down.

pjasper: Number three, you know if you choose not to go full time, hobbyist is not a bad word. There's plenty of really happy, talented hobbyists out there.

Tile: happy

pjasper: and let's let's get Let's dispel this this inertia or the d stigma around being a hobbyist. Number four, If you do decide to do it, know it's going to be a hard path.

Tile: no

pjasper: And we talked a lot about all the reasons it was going to be a hard path. And finally, if you do do it, know that there are many different routes to do it, whether it's content creation, or commissions, or teaching, or some culmination of income streams.

Tile: know that there

pjasper: right And so i you know there's no clear answer.

Tile: thought You know.

pjasper: The answer is going to come from you and your objectives and what you what you'd love to do.

Tile: you

pjasper: So with that, we're going to pivot to our next segment, and I'm going to give I'm going to give our two co -hosts who are who are typing really nasty things to me in the chat ah privately.

Tile: so with

Tile: really bad

pjasper: um I'm going to give them a choice of what we pivot to is our next segment, either sourcing wood You fuckers, stop typing stuff. Is it sourcing wood or is it wood trivia? Like, where do you buy your wood or do we want to do wood trivia?

Tile: you buy

pjasper: You guys pick.

Murr: Were you distracted?

pjasper: Yeah, I know.

YEEERack: We're just going to let the awkward silence linger.

pjasper: You're too busy fucking typing bullshit to me. Nobody fucking doo -doo dookie, what the fuck?

Murr: Only second grade, third grade humor over here. It's fine.

pjasper: Yeah, yeah.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: It's fine.

pjasper: Are are we gonna do trivia or where to buy wood?

Tile: ah original

YEEERack: ah Let's go.

Murr: I would probably say, oh, I was gonna say probably trivia and then we could do where to buy wood in the after show.

YEEERack: I was going to say trivia as well.

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay after show

pjasper: After show is where do you source your wood from?

Tile: where

pjasper: All right. So we'll get to that. So trivia.

Tile: ah tria

pjasper: All right.

Tile: right

pjasper: Cause you know, I got a lot of feedback from our last trivia that they, people enjoyed it. So I, instead of using internet trivia, like Eric did very lazily, I actually wrote the trivia.

YEEERack: Wow, okay.

pjasper: I took the time, Eric, you little bitch, to write the trivia questions myself.

Tile: but

pjasper: Okay.

YEEERack: Sorry, I was trying to bring some fresh fucking segs into this show, Paul.

pjasper: No, actually, actually, actually, I thought the trivia was amazing and Jen said Aloha wood, which people want made into a t -shirt.

Tile: i

Murr: I liked his questions!

Tile: i

YEEERack: Aloha, Wood. I'm making a t -shirt on bonfire right now, Aloha, Wood.

pjasper: Yeah.

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay

pjasper: There are a few people who said they would buy that immediately. All right.

YEEERack: 100 love it Yes How many options do we have ah

pjasper: Are you ready for some trivia?

Murr: Yes.

pjasper: All right, let's do it. Okay, so first off, I don't know why I thought about this, but I did.

Tile: no I don't know why I thought about this.

pjasper: What are the best woods to use for outdoor applications? Mary, mayor ah you you can give up to yeah you can give up to four answers.

Tile: mary mary

Murr: Yeah. Is this a list?

pjasper: Mary, what would you use for outdoor furniture?

Murr: Cedar?

pjasper: Cedar. Eric, your turn, you go one at a time. Eric, what's yours?

YEEERack: eBay.

pjasper: E pay. Excellent.

Murr: That's what I was gonna say.

YEEERack: Yeah, I know another one, but I took that one because you wanted that one.

pjasper: Mary.

Murr: Have you Sapelli before?

pjasper: i I mean, I don't know it's a mahogany relative, but yeah, it might be okay.

YEEERack: It's trash.

pjasper: Cause mahogany is considered pretty good.

Murr: I know of Sapelli holding up over many years, so that's the reason I say it.

pjasper: Okay.

YEEERack: So is it my turn?

pjasper: Okay, I buy that I buy that Eric.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: Uh, locust either honey or black.

pjasper: Oh, that is such a dark horse answer. I love that answer.

Tile: love that answer

YEEERack: Cause it's right.

pjasper: That's not one of the ones that it's right.

YEEERack: That's why.

Tile: right

pjasper: It's right. And by the way, black locust, apparently the bark is like toxic. It's got a human toxin in the

YEEERack: Yeah. Black, black locust. I have pulled up, uh, fence posts like farm posts of black locusts 50 to 60 years after, and they're still completely intact. That shit does not rot.

Murr: Wow.

Tile: that

pjasper: That's fantastic.

YEEERack: Yeah, yeah.

Murr: Hmm.

pjasper: Any others?

Tile: and the other

YEEERack: Oh, but that wasn't on the list.

pjasper: No, that no that was that was so good.

Tile: that no that

Murr: ah

Tile: so

pjasper: I didn't even have it on my list.

Murr: Uh...

pjasper: What's next?

Murr: I was gonna say teak?

pjasper: Mary?

Tile: gary

pjasper: Teak, obviously.

YEEERack: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

pjasper: Teak, yep. Any others?

Tile: never

Murr: Redwood, I guess?

pjasper: and Redwood, yep.

Tile: rightwood

YEEERack: Redwood is a solid, I mean outside of outside of importing like highly expensive exotics that don't rot because they're half silical.

Tile: yeah

Murr: Yeah.

Murr: What else is there?

pjasper: I also had...

Tile: also Any

pjasper: I had white oak. White oak actually is decent.

Murr: Yeah, white oak, yeah.

YEEERack: Okay.

Tile: other?

YEEERack: All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

pjasper: Decent, yeah.

YEEERack: Yeah. That's fair.

pjasper: Okay, you know why I did that as a as trivia question?

Tile: Okay.

pjasper: Because so many people ask me, I need to make Adirondack chairs. I'm gonna make flower boxes. What should I make it out of? And of course, pressure -treated, obviously.

YEEERack: If you're making, if you're making those, just make them out of pine. It's going to fucking degrade anyway.

pjasper: Yeah, pressure -treated pine is good for things like that. But anyway, we we I thought we'd review some of the other woods that hold up outdoors. Second of all, the next question is, ah Speaking of outdoor woods, which oak has open pores and which has closed pores?

Tile: oh

pjasper: And when it has closed pores, what exactly is closing them?

YEEERack: What? Which oak has open and closed?

pjasper: Which oak has open pores, which oak has closed pores, and what is closing them?

Murr: Red.

YEEERack: Yeah. No, white oak has open pores.

Murr: White. Or, yeah, sorry.

pjasper: Wait, sorry.

YEEERack: What?

Tile: you

YEEERack: White is open, red is closed.

Murr: Yes. No, it's the other way around, right?

pjasper: Yeah.

Murr: Yeah. Red is, red is open. It always has open grain and then white is closed. I don't know what closes them though.

pjasper: Mary is correct.

YEEERack: No, she's not.

pjasper: Yes, she is.

YEEERack: Flat out denial.

Murr: that's what That's why rh you don't use red oak for cutting boards or anything, and white oak is okay, usually.

pjasper: Wrong.

YEEERack: I mean, here's the thing.

pjasper: Mary, Mary, drop in the knowledge.

Tile: very his knowledge

YEEERack: Here's the thing, they're they're both open.

pjasper: Not, okay.

Murr: Yeah, they're both open comparatively to some other woods, but white is more closed for sure.

Tile: Okay.

pjasper: One of them you can use as a straw and blow bubbles in your in your water with.

Murr: Yeah.

YEEERack: you can You can do that in White Oak, I've done that.

pjasper: Nope.

YEEERack: i will I will get a piece of fucking White Oak right now and do it, motherfucker!

pjasper: Try it.

pjasper: Try it again, big guy.

Murr: Let's chop up my dining table. Let's do it.

pjasper: Eric, try it again, buddy. I've tried it both.

YEEERack: This, this motherfucker.

pjasper: I've tried it multiple times.

Murr: So wait so what closes the green?

pjasper: You're wrong. So what closes the pores of white oak?

Murr: The whiteness.

YEEERack: Yup.

pjasper: It's super interesting and it's a science answer.

YEEERack: Southern baptism.

pjasper: It's called, they're called, no, it's not Southern baptism.

Tile: their

pjasper: They're called tyloses. And it's actually an extrusion of the cell wall of the plant cell.

Tile: oh

pjasper: Like the the plant cell that makes the wood, like think of it like a little ah rectangle.

Tile: the plant style that makes the work like

pjasper: It like has a bleb that like comes out of the sidewall and like sticks into the pour and like clogs it shut.

Tile: like had the ble out of

pjasper: It's so cool.

Tile: so

YEEERack: Remember when we said that Paul loves science?

Murr: Science.

Tile: you

YEEERack: We've been talking about woodworking for 67 minutes and this motherfucker just lit up for the first time all episode like a schoolboy who just saw a pair of boobies for the first time.

pjasper: Eric! So Google, not boobies, but tyloses. And if you want to look at Google images, and you'll see the cell wall of like kind of like extruding out into the pore and clogging it shut. I thought that was so absolutely fascinating as to why White Oak is not only a good outdoor wood because it resists water because of that. Mary, very good. I give you extra credit. Eric, you were totally fucking wrong.

YEEERack: Still stand by what I said.

Tile: first

pjasper: But I just think that's really interesting. Next question. Okay. ah ah Which mahogany relative smells like cinnamon and or a nutmeg when you cut it?

Murr: I don't know this one.

YEEERack: Ooh, I can sassafras.

pjasper: You both know the answer.

Tile: you

YEEERack: It's not sassafras.

pjasper: You said it already.

YEEERack: eBay?

Murr: Sapellic?

pjasper: so Sapele, yeah, Sapele.

YEEERack: Sapele? Oh, I never work with Sapele, I don't know.

pjasper: I don't know if you've ever cut Sapele. It smells it smells like like cinnamon and nutmeg mixed together. It's a fast, it's like such a good smell.

YEEERack: Interesting.

Murr: I I remember it smelling good, but I didn't, I don't know if I like pinpointed it as cinnamon and nutmeg.

pjasper: Well, mahogany smells like nothing, and Sapele smells amazing.

Tile: exposed like

Murr: ah

pjasper: Are there any other woods that you guys like to smell of?

Murr: I like sapele.

YEEERack: sassafras Smells it smells like Christmas.

pjasper: You're fucking sad, Sephras.

YEEERack: Huh? No, I'm dead ass, man Yeah, sassafras sassafras is fucking delightful Dead ass no cat motherfucker So what I said no sassafras is delightful

Murr: Deadass!

pjasper: Are you serious?

Tile: board

pjasper: I thought you were bullshitting.

pjasper: What are you, 15?

Murr: Oh man.

pjasper: Oh.

Tile: .

pjasper: What's it smell like? Like juniper?

YEEERack: Uh, yeah, I guess. I don't know. i Listen, I don't have a refined palette or nose, but it smells wonderful.

pjasper: I will add one, I wanna add one to the list, bloodwood.

YEEERack: It smells like Christmas.

pjasper: It smells amazing when you cut it.

Murr: What?

YEEERack: Interesting. Okay.

pjasper: It smells so sweet and beautiful. Oh shit, I just undid one of my answers.

Murr: Interesting.

pjasper: Oh no, I just screwed up.

Tile: .

YEEERack: Oh no. You can't control Z that motherfucker.

pjasper: i just I just gave the answer to one of my next questions.

Tile: you

pjasper: What's the only red wood that doesn't oxidize to brown over time? wawah

YEEERack: I mean, bloodwood will go brown eventually.

pjasper: No, it doesn't, not for a long, long, long, long time.

YEEERack: Yeah. Well, I mean, everything goes brown eventually.

pjasper: I've never seen it, Eric.

Murr: Define long. but

pjasper: i know Eric, Eric, you know, if you, if you look it up, like, and so Paduc red turns brown fast.

YEEERack: Yeah, it's fair. I have a couple of sticks that are still very red.

Tile: for you red

YEEERack: Yeah. ah Immediately. Yeah.

pjasper: Uh, red, red heart turns brown fast or bloodwood for some reason stays red almost forever.

YEEERack: Yep. Yep.

Tile: one um

YEEERack: It's is very ironic given how fast blood turns brown.

pjasper: Yeah.

Murr: Yes.

pjasper: That's a good point. All right. Next, next question. Uh, uh, what's the oldest tree on earth?

Murr: Oh, well, uh, yeah, I was going to say, I remember Prometheus was the oldest tree and then got cut down and everything.

YEEERack: Methuselah.

pjasper: It is, he got it.

Tile: get

YEEERack: It is Methuselah.

Tile: got it

YEEERack: And then, yeah.

Murr: Uh, fun fact, actually my friend who's a glassblower recently tracked down the stump of Prometheus because they they have had hidden location.

YEEERack: Really?

Murr: She did a 3d scan of it and she's glassblowing a mold of it and it's extremely cool.

pjasper: Oh, that's so cool, Mary.

YEEERack: No shit.

Murr: Yeah.

YEEERack: That's gangster.

Tile: fool narrative

pjasper: It was Prometheus, a bristlecone pine like Methuselah.

Murr: Yeah.

Tile: He's got it.

Murr: Yes. Yes.

pjasper: Okay.

Murr: I think, ah where, where is Mathias located?

pjasper: Okay, so Methuselah is in the, no, it's not the the just, yeah, it's in the Inyo National Forest in the White Mountains of Eastern California.

Tile: okay

YEEERack: Did they give the location?

Murr: Like general location.

YEEERack: No, yeah.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: Hmm.

Murr: Okay. Yeah. That's the, that's simpler. Yeah.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: So I don't know if any of you have seen a picture of Methuselah, the bristlecone pine.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Oh yeah, yeah, it's gnarly as shit.

pjasper: They estimate its age at 5 ,000 years old.

YEEERack: Uh -huh. Yeah, it's wild.

Murr: Yeah.

pjasper: Okay. 5 ,000. Let's put that in perspective, right? That is like 3 ,000 BC is when that tree started growing.

YEEERack: Is that older than the pyramids? I think that's older than the pyramids, right?

pjasper: ah Yeah.

Murr: Mm hmm.

pjasper: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Murr: Yeah.

pjasper: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 3 ,000 BC is when that.

YEEERack: I don't.

Tile: when that

pjasper: pine tree like took root and started growing.

YEEERack: Yeah. Yeah.

pjasper: Like what?

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: And if you look at pictures of it, it's a hot mess. It's like, you know, it's all, it's all twisted.

YEEERack: Oh, yeah.

Murr: It looks dead.

Tile: it's all

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: it's all

YEEERack: No, it looks 5 ,000 years old.

Tile: with and

pjasper: And and it's tiny.

Murr: Yeah.

Tile: okay you.

pjasper: It's like six feet tall. It's barely like, Oh yeah, it's tiny.

Murr: Wait, really?

YEEERack: Really? Oh, no shit. I didn't realize it was that small.

pjasper: Yeah. No, that the, the bristlecone pines are small.

Murr: Oh, wow.

pjasper: They're all twisted and gnarly.

YEEERack: Wow.

pjasper: They're small trees. They're not big. They're on, they're on tops of mountains. They're not there. No, no. They're not like these huge sequoias or anything.

Murr: It's only six feet?

pjasper: Google it.

YEEERack: Yeah.

Murr: That's crazy.

YEEERack: Yeah.

pjasper: ah Yeah, it's small. It's, small I don't know if it's six feet exactly. It might be eight feet. I don't know, but it's small.

Murr: But it's not i feel like the redwoods or anything.

pjasper: It's not. No, no, no.

Murr: Wow.

YEEERack: I don't, I don't, I don't understand how this is alive.

pjasper: It's on the top of mountains.

YEEERack: Like it just, it looks like a fossil.

pjasper: Okay.

Tile: okay

pjasper: Uh, last question.

Tile: but

Murr: Okay.

pjasper: What is the largest?

Tile: you.

pjasper: Organism and this has to do with a tree. What is the largest living organ?

Murr: okay

YEEERack: The Aspens in Colorado.

pjasper: Oh God, Eric, you're so fast. Dick.

YEEERack: The Aspen Grove.

Murr: Yep.

pjasper: He's right. So the largest living organism, and it happens that the oldest living root system in the world is a stand of trembling Aspen in Utah.

YEEERack: Oh, it's in Utah, alright.

pjasper: And they estimate it to be 80 ,000 years old.

Murr: That's so cool.

pjasper: Now, now that's, that's the root system has been alive for 80 ,000 years and it just keeps sending up like aspens and it's, it's, it's a hundred acres big.

YEEERack: Really?

Tile: so

YEEERack: Yeah.

Tile: why

YEEERack: Mhm.

pjasper: That's how big the root system is as a hundred acres and it just keep sending up these little aspens. and And the aspens are like 100, 130 years old, but relative to its root system, they're all clones of each other, by the way, because they come from a ah unified, yeah yeah, they're all genetically clones.

Tile: and ask

Tile: so

YEEERack: Right. That's what I was going to say.

Tile: Now, that's the test.

YEEERack: It's wild.

pjasper: Every aspen is the same. They're just these little offshoots of what is an 80 ,000 year old root system.

YEEERack: That's bonkers.

pjasper: How fucking interesting.

Murr: That's so cool.

YEEERack: It's bonkers.

pjasper: Is that 80 ,000 year old?

Tile: got

Murr: That's amazing.

YEEERack: See? That's where science becomes cool.

Murr: Wow.

pjasper: It's like my two favorite things, science and wood.

Tile: Thank

Murr: 80 ,000 years old?

pjasper: Yeah, yeah.

Murr: Wow. It's almost as old as you.

pjasper: They must've... Oh my god.

YEEERack: Wow.

YEEERack: da

pjasper: You know what?

Murr: Had to make it. Had to make the joke.

pjasper: Oh my god. Oh my god. Mary, if you're lucky, someday you'll be as old as me. On that note, on that note we will pivot away from trivia

Murr: True.

Tile: you.

pjasper: ah i do I want to say thanks to our ah Patreon supporters.

Tile: i do want

YEEERack: Damn!

pjasper: you both Not only thank you for supporting us, but you gave us ideas for The After Show.

YEEERack: Hmm.

Tile: yeah

pjasper: And so today's After Show, we're going to talk about where do you get your wood from? Because I get asked that all the time, and I think the answers might surprise you. So if you'd like to join to hear The After Show,

Tile: youd like to join

pjasper: ah just join Patreon for us and you'll get all the answers you like. I want to thank our last five patrons since the last show. We have Will Baumgardner.

Tile: yeah um

pjasper: We have an old friend of mine who I used to work with, Thomas Lewis, who used the username Tom Ass. Thank you, Thomas. ah was very how was it's very sophisticated That was very sophisticated of you.

YEEERack: Classic Thomas.

pjasper: ah We have Ed Duncan.

Tile: there'

pjasper: We have Jono and Catherine, so Catherine Dodd.

Tile: you

pjasper: So thank you.

Tile: Thank you.

Murr: Thank you.

pjasper: Yeah, thank you for joining us.

Tile: yeah

YEEERack: Thanks, France.

pjasper: actually So um with that, I think we're gonna roll onto the aftershow and talk about wood.

Murr: Also, I want to say if we would love more questions for the after show. So if you do, if you are a patron and you have any ideas or questions you want to ask us that you want us to answer, please ask.

pjasper: All right. So with that, we will catch you next episode all.

Tile: with that

Murr: Bye.

YEEERack: Peace, y 'all.

pjasper: Hey, Mary said goodbye and we didn't have to dog her, Eric.

Tile: you

YEEERack: Oh, man, we're growing as a pod, guys.

pjasper: Oh, Mary, you're catching on!

Murr: Oh my God.

YEEERack: Aww. um

pjasper: Bye!

Murr: i hate you i hate

YEEERack: my

Murr: both so much

Murr: I hate you. I hate you both so much!