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Embracing Mindfulness: A Path to Clarity and Self-Mastery (feat. Will Schneider)
188 Plays11 months ago
In this episode, host Travis Goodman sits down with special guest Will Schneider to delve into the world of mindfulness, men, and masculinity. Will Schneider, a recognized figure in the New York City Yoga World, shares his personal journey of self-discovery and the transformative power of mindfulness in his life. Together, Travis and Will explore the challenges men face in embracing mindfulness, the importance of finding calm and clarity, and the impact of surrounding oneself with a supportive community.
Here are three key takeaways from our engaging conversation:
1. Embracing Calmness and Clarity: Will Schneider emphasized the significance of finding calmness and connecting with our breath to achieve clarity and be more connected to ourselves. By practicing mindfulness and breath work, individuals can achieve a state of calm, which positively impacts their mental well-being.
2. Overcoming Traditional Masculinity Barriers: We delved into the challenge of encouraging men to embrace mindfulness, discussing how societal expectations of masculinity can create barriers. However, our conversation highlighted that, when engaged, men can experience profound personal growth and improve their relationships and overall well-being.
3. Mindful Practices for Personal and Professional Growth: Will Schneider shared essential insights on incorporating mindfulness into various aspects of life, from relationships to the professional sphere. By sharing his journey and experiences, he emphasized how mindfulness enhances masculinity, improves connections, and makes life easier overall.
Join us as we uncover the profound benefits of mindfulness and the path to self-improvement in this enlightening conversation.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mindfulness and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
I would say mindfulness is a lifestyle of awareness, but being aware objectively, nonjudgmentally, being present to the moment, it's a self-mastering tool. This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched, evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the Therapy for Dads podcast. I'm so excited to have this guest on. We met actually, I was on, I was a guest on their show and I say there, cause it's this guest plus another. I'm not going to reveal the name yet. I don't know why I'm being so elusive, but if you're watching this, the good news is, is that we are, we're vibing similarly. We both have, we have the black, we have the, I don't know if this is like a dad thing. I don't know, you know, if this is a guy thing, but, or if it's post, you know,
00:00:57
Speaker
It's a New York thing over here. It's a New York thing. Well, it's a California thing, too. But my wife says I look good in black. So he got the memo.
Introducing Will and His Journey
00:01:06
Speaker
We're matching. Before we jump into this conversation today, I want to welcome Will. So welcome. Thank you, Travis. It's great to be on your show. It's good to connect with you again. I really enjoyed our conversation and the information that we brought to our show. And here we are. I really appreciate this opportunity to speak with you, connect with you, but also have a conversation that can help more men.
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, and that's why I had you on and why I enjoyed talking with you and John. So real quick of how I met Will, I was a guest on his podcast, along with John McCaskill, who is a retired Navy SEAL. And their podcast is called Men Talking Mindfulness, which is exactly how it sounds. It's straight up being mindful. And yeah, and it's great. And I stumbled upon their podcast. I don't know how the algorithm, I think,
00:01:55
Speaker
I think through anson another guest on the show who is also trying to help men and he's a neuroscientist he has the app mental i think he's friends with john and then i saw something connected as the universe whatever you wanna call it we connected i got to talk on their app on their podcast and had such a great time connecting that i've had john on.
00:02:12
Speaker
which is gonna be released I think in a week or two and then now Will and just a quick little bio who Will is the reason why Will and I vibed is that one first and foremost he's been practicing yoga meditation mindfulness for well over 14 years he lives in New York he has been publicly recognized in New York yoga world New York City yoga world teachers which is pretty incredible he co-hosts men talking mindfulness with with John McCaskill
00:02:36
Speaker
And he also told me about this really cool kind of certificate training he's getting through Stanford called Applied Compassion Training. And he's going to be an ambassador of compassion. To me, I'm like, what a title, an ambassador of compassion. It just sounds like you want to be with this guy. I need more compassion in my life. We all do.
00:02:56
Speaker
We all do. So that's Will, a little bit about Will and why I wanted him on. One, his experience and kind of what his training and also just, I think we just really had a great connection and talked easily and that was, I like having people all in like this. So anything else we need to know about you, Will? Like obviously you're from New York, I'm California. Any other cool information?
00:03:17
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, like, no, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's a, it's, it's been fun to, to work in this space, you know, mindfulness, but like, just because our show is called men talking mindfulness is for everybody. And it just happens to be two dudes talking about mindfulness. People, a lot of people think it's just for men, which has kind of worked for us, you know, cause we really, we've, we've delved in a lot more conversations.
00:03:38
Speaker
conversation about men and masculinity and what gets it all hung up and you know and it's just been a real incredible adventure for me not just with the podcast but just because I'm like a tall straight dude in the yoga community here in New York like that immediately just started attract attracting like
00:03:55
Speaker
regular dudes that just were practices so you know and then you know not even really like I was called forward to work with men kind of by its own need I guess like it's not like it's something I was like I'm gonna go work with men it's just like we're
Mindfulness and Masculinity
00:04:10
Speaker
you know, the calling kind of came to me, I'm like, yeah, I need to heed this call. So, you know, here we are, like, I appreciate connecting to, you know, you today, because you're helping so many guys out there and putting our heads together, you know, and our voices together and our wisdom and experience together to help and just have a conversation to help more men is just exactly where we're supposed to be.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah and that piece right there like working together to help more men and I think really it's about building bridges and community and relationship that we all have something to offer and we all have a heart and passion for men to help men to be more holistically healthy and it's not about competition. I'm not fighting you. It's more about learning from you know learn from you and John and then glean you know glean that information and integrate into what I'm doing and
00:04:55
Speaker
And in helping, it's like how do we build a community of help and aid in camaraderie, which is kind of what we need versus that kind of solo, isolative kind of rigid masculinity where we can get stuck in like it's just me and I'm the lone wolf and I don't need anyone's help. And that's the kind of guys we're trying to reach is those kind of men who are like maybe stuck on that.
00:05:11
Speaker
And that's great that men have been coming to you of like, Hey, I'm this skinny white guy, you know, straight white guy doing yoga in New York. And I might be, I'm kind of the odd man out maybe considering. And so it's, I'm drawing some, some men that may have not stepped into this place for various reasons, but you know what, let's jump in and talk. So today's topic is mindfulness and you know,
00:05:31
Speaker
One, what is it? Why should men care about it? You know, is it just this fluffy thing that people do? Is it just something that, like, you know, Zen Buddhists do? You know, what is it really? But before we go there, can you—I'm guessing you had a little bit of a journey story about how you got to doing mindfulness. Was that something you always did or was it kind of like—was there an evolution of will or—
00:05:50
Speaker
I guess the kind of the origin story of how it all kind of started it's yeah, you know, I actually my first kind of mindfulness journey experience was starting to journal like I was I found myself in a really dark spot like having a broken heart like I got over 20 years ago, and I just
00:06:07
Speaker
you know my the model of what i thought the world is and should be and how i should live in the world and the things i should be doing just completely shattered and you know left a really gaping hole in my mind my heart my place in the world and i was really lost like really really lost i was like.
00:06:23
Speaker
You know, live in that, I guess the, how do you want to call it? Like the, the story of my parents, the story of our family, you know, it's like, and I'm thinking it's a story for a lot of men, you know, especially, you know, being great. I'm just talking about men and some, like I was that man and I still am in some ways, but being like provider, protector, conqueror. So it's like, you know, go out and crush and conquer the corporate world, you know, go out and.
00:06:45
Speaker
You know, so I started working at this pharmaceutical company with my biology degree and, you know, put four or five years in and, you know, then I was also looking for that, you know, next piece, like, you know, how do you be, you know, the provider to protectors? Like, well, you need a wife or you need a girlfriend, you know, you need a house. So I was like looking to kind of, you know, live that the rest of the story. And as I got into the love and the relationship, like I said, it just, it all broke apart. And I was like, what, what's my life?
00:07:14
Speaker
That led me to journaling that led me to move to new york as like i was.
00:07:19
Speaker
I never had an opportunity to really express myself creatively because I was always like, I was a, you know, six foot three. I was able to like, it was quite an athlete growing up, played basketball through college and I was kind of rewarded. And I think a lot of men can identify this as well. It's like, we're rewarded for our athletic prowess, you know, and, you know, and just being able to be skillful and to be do amazing things with your body, like dunk a basketball and all that stuff and like play really good ball. And, you know, everyone's like, yeah, look at him. Look at my son, you know, look at,
00:07:49
Speaker
And, you know, and I just was, I didn't know any better. I just went through school, you know, came out with a degree in biology, you know, got my first job. And then I started, you know, then, then life really hit me in the face with this breakup I went through. And, and then it just, I was really, really lost. And it was, it wasn't just random journaling. It was through this book called The Artist's Way, which, you know, has been out there for quite a while with an amazing author called her name is Julia Cameron. And, you know, this just started to wake me up in ways that,
00:08:18
Speaker
The whole book is basically the whole idea that everybody's a creative, and it's like, what do you want to do with this creative energy and source that you have inside of you? So it's kind of stripping you down through the journaling over this 12-week course that's part of this book, and then building it back up. And I realized that I was totally on the wrong path, didn't know exactly what the next path should be, but left my job, started to act
00:08:43
Speaker
moved to New York, I was in Philadelphia at the time, moved to New York City, you know, was getting on stage on soap operas and just started to really like explore myself creatively, but also like in, you know, one of the busiest cities in the world at the same time. So it really demanded a lot of, you know, things I didn't know, like, you know, just to trust that like, I have the ability to make a massive shift.
00:09:04
Speaker
And part of what really helped me to sustain and maintain, you know, the confidence and the courage and just the resilience needed to live in such an incredibly competitive and difficult city to live in because it's costly. There's, you know, the kind of the best of the best are here, you know, so is how I kind of started to dive deeper to these practices. Also, it's like I wanted to be more present and be more emotionally available when I'm, you know, on stage and on camera.
Mindfulness Practices and Personal Growth
00:09:32
Speaker
So I started meditating.
00:09:33
Speaker
And then that kind of right around the same time I started practicing yoga. And that just really helped me to access my body in a different way instead of it being rewarded for making a great jump shot or a slam dunk on a basketball. So that it just, it just slowly like, I've kind of feel like I've been guided in this way. You know, like, Oh, you know what, Will? Okay, you opened up.
00:09:57
Speaker
You know, you've had this epiphanal moment in your life, like, you know, thanks for trusting that, you know, that these things can happen. I feel like I've been partially carried forward in this regard too. And like, you know, even the podcast just kind of, it all started to just happen organically. Like all the work I've been doing in the yoga world and helping men is all kind of happened organically. And I think it's coming from that place of just being open, being, you know, a present.
00:10:23
Speaker
living through my heart, being a passionate guy, and just the willingness to make a difference in the world. Yeah. And thanks for sharing that story of your kind of evolution of movement through that. It started with a significant breakup, which got you to a pretty dark place. But I'm wondering, was it just like, I'm going to read this book? Or did someone say, hey, you should read this book? I wonder if we can capture that. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny. In her book,
00:10:48
Speaker
the artist's way, she kind of talks about these moments and they call them synchronicities. And actually somebody, like actually the woman I was dating at the time and just be kind of maybe a month or so before, you know, the demise of our relationship, someone just handed me the name of this book. She goes, I think that you would benefit from this book. And I just wrote it on a pamphlet, put it in my back pocket.
00:11:09
Speaker
And, you know, didn't think about it and didn't even wear those pants for like a couple months or something like that. Relationships over, I'm devastated. I wear these pants. I reach my backpack, get this pamphlet. I'm like, this is early days of Amazon. So like I'm talking like 90, you know, something like that. Or no, sorry. Like probably like 2000, 2001. Yeah. And I just researched this book. I'm like, oh fuck it. I'll just order this book. See what happens. Comes in.
00:11:31
Speaker
And I was like, again, I was just such at a loss that I'm like, let's just dive in right away. She just, yeah, she just, I just dove in and just started reading the book. And, you know, it was, she's just, anytime I really, even now I start struggling or, or struggling with some aspect of who I am or my creative pursuit to what I'm doing. There's always something in that book that can help me. And it just took me on this ride and I'm still riding.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, I've actually never heard the book. I need to grab a copy on Amazon in 2023. I'm sure I'll get it quickly, but I need to grab it. It's great. It's really, it's just, I mean, it's like, yeah, I mean, the, the journaling is, it was really helpful. Like, as far as like, it would be every morning, just journaling stream of thought, you know, just kind of a brain drain kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it just really helped me to get in touch with myself in a way that I've never communicated with myself in the world before.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a big advocate for journaling and in my healing process too, I did a lot of journaling when I was in therapy early on in my early 20s and really found it life giving. And I'm a big advocate now when I'm working with men and to say, hey, this is, you know, this is going to be, this is a powerful tool and we use it for different things. And so it's, it's, it's what a serendipitous, you know, experience too of like going from the breakup and then wearing the pants and like, okay, I'm just gonna,
00:12:44
Speaker
Almost like, I'm open to anything, I'm struggling. Let me just do something. It's kind of like your own rock bottom in a way of emotion. It's like, okay, let me do something, because I'm just a wreck right now. And then flash forward, now it's like, you've been doing it for almost 15 years, and you're teaching it, and you're getting all this. That was like 20, it was 20, 2001 is when I started the actual, not teaching, but the journey. So it's been like 22 years. I can't believe it, I'm shocked. Could you ever anticipate this, looking back, back then to today?
00:13:14
Speaker
Not at all. Not at all. There's like, you know, I, I've just, yeah, I'm not at all, but it's like, it's, I'm a love.
00:13:21
Speaker
what I'm doing, where I'm sitting, how things are going, and where they are going. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. And then we got to meet too from this whole process, which is really cool. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, now sharing a bit about your story of kind of how you got here, you're now, you know, you're an advocate for this, you teach it, you talk about it, you do a podcast about it, you do yoga, you do, you know, professionally, you do retreats, you do all these things. Could you, you know, if you were to define mindfulness, because people, I think there's different definitions of how people say it, what they say, like how would you, how would Will define like, what is mindfulness?
00:13:50
Speaker
I would say what mindfulness is just, it's a, it's a lifestyle of awareness, you know, but being aware objectively, nonjudgmentally, being present to the moment. And, and just like, I think it's a, it's a self mastering tool is really what it is. Cause if you, and it's just, or the practices are, I mean, mindfulness is just like being mindful and being intentional with your, with your, how you're living and what you're doing and how you're feeling and how you're interacting with the world.
00:14:17
Speaker
You know, the practices of mindfulness, like whether it's breath work or meditation or journaling or like drawing or, you know, so many different practices are eating mindfully.
00:14:26
Speaker
It all helps you to maintain that presence, which is important for mindfulness. Because if I'm present, I'm here, then I can orient myself to the here and now. And then from this place, I can take myself where I want to go. Versus, like most people that aren't present and mindful and kind of more awake to their life, they usually are, they live in reaction to the world or the expectations of who they should be and what they should be doing.
00:14:53
Speaker
and they never really get to know themselves and that's a big part of this too is like getting to know yourself and also not just all the wonderful things that you can do but also the ugly sides that are still might be trapped inside that you can do something about and it's just it's powerful it's like it eventually just becomes like a lifestyle is really what it turns into because like once you my experience and the experience that you know I hear often with people I'm working with it's like once you do wake up and once you kind of do have
00:15:23
Speaker
those moments of presence and once you feel or have the experiences of from practicing and then incorporating those practice in your life, like you don't want to go back because you're no longer like you're awake instead of being always clouded by the fog of distress or whatever else kind of is going on for you. Number one, you have a way to get out of that fog of distress. Number two, you get to know the power that's within all of us. And then what do you do with that power is what's next.
00:15:52
Speaker
I love what you said. It's a self mastering tool. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, yeah, exactly. That that's what I'd, yeah. That's why I'd go self-master. Yeah. And, and I'm thinking of men that I've worked with and even that language, a self mastering tool, it, it seems I'm thinking of those guys, especially who maybe haven't done yoga or meditation or therapy. It's like, that's, that sounds like some language that might capture, I want to be a self master like that. Even that,
00:16:19
Speaker
It's more inventational, I feel like, a self-mastering tool. I mean, it very much is in line with like a discipline of doing, you know, training the mind. And, you know, I like how you said that. That's great. And with that, I definitely want to talk to you about what you hear, but what are some barriers to guys doing this initially to mindfulness practice when they first come to see you?
00:16:35
Speaker
Well, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot. I think the first is they're often men are afraid to deviate from the tribe, the tribe of the masculinity that they know, which has been called like, confined masculinity, toxic masculinity, and really just like coming back to what I said earlier, the way I was living, and I still see this from a lot of men in my family, and a lot of men that I know are just that protect provider conqueror role.
00:17:03
Speaker
and they only access and allow us to really express ourselves and do things.
00:17:10
Speaker
and take jobs that, that access those three ways of being. So like to getting out of that mindset, it could be very challenging because you know, men, like we, we, we act like you said earlier, like lone wolves and typical, but it's also, we're very aware of what other guys are doing and you don't want to kind of rock the boat sometimes because you know, we're kind of shame back into those roles in so many ways, which I'm sure you've had many conversations that about that or know that about that shame.
00:17:36
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's the first barrier. And then another barrier I see typically in the yoga room or with breath work and meditation is like men want to be awesome at it immediately. You know what I mean? They want to be fucking great at something they never done before. Is that possible?
00:17:53
Speaker
You know, so, and men suffer often with a lot of impatience and all the things that are required to, you know, like do anything successfully, you know, or just kind of take on a new practice. And there's a lot of humility involved as well. As you get to know yourself and wake up, when you go on these retreats, they'll be like, you know, I hear a lot of men talk about God, I've never realized I was such an asshole. It's like,
00:18:19
Speaker
And then it's like, what are you doing when you wake up to the fact that you've been an asshole a lot of your life, you know? And yeah, those I would say are the big ones. And another one is just the willingness to try, the courage it takes to self-reflect, the courage it takes to get still.
00:18:39
Speaker
you know, to take time for yourself. That's another thing. Like a lot of within those roles that I talked about earlier, you're looking out for everybody else or looking to cover your ass in some way, you know, looking to, you know, be more successful than someone else. Whereas like, what, what have you just get inside of you and what's really in there? And then, so yeah, it's, it's quite a journey for a lot of men, but it's what's, and I think like you, I'm sure you know this as well, or what your, your experience too is like, when that light does go on for men,
00:19:06
Speaker
They become the best students, man. And then they want to share it with everybody. Yeah, no, I agree. I think part of it is that, like you said, and those things are still prevalent to this day. In fact, they just had one of my old professors on, I really saw an episode of the podcast and he's been studying like men and masculinity for 27 years. So he's in the research and doing the research, you know, started initially through feminism lens and graduate school and PhD, kind of what initially brought him in, but started working with men and like saying,
00:19:32
Speaker
I'm seeing these themes here and then start seeing kind of what we're talking about and noticing that men are you know, they're they're stuck, you know, they're you know, but when they get engaged like when you captivate them when they show up and they actually come like they're in like they don't want to leave like like mindfulness or therapy because they
00:19:49
Speaker
Like you said, they become committed because they see the benefit. But sometimes those barriers are like the tribe of like, well, I can only have to be these rigid roles of like what a almost like a one dimensional view of masculinity. Like a very much this is like, this is it right here. And you got to fit within this, these walls. And if you don't fit in your walls.
00:20:05
Speaker
you're out of the tribe or you're neglected or you know all those fears and so they're they've learned to cope with I gotta stay here I can't go outside this this is just you know not safe dangerous whatever and so but once you get them in like you or your experience is like man once they're they're hooked because they really see oh okay and now for a short break
Supporting the Podcast
00:20:23
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:20:40
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to BuyMeACoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:20:55
Speaker
So what is that kind of shift? Like how does it shift? Like what is the awareness of light bulb that goes on of like, Oh, this is okay. Or this is beneficial. Is there some like themes that you've seen from men that you could share or even from your own experience or both of, you know, like, what is that internal state of like, I have to be to this rigid, you know, one dimensional, I gotta only provide, you know, this is it to like, Oh, this is actually okay and beneficial and really life giving. Well, I think when, when men, you know, they start
00:21:24
Speaker
When they get on this path and they start doing the work, they realize that they're not losing anything. They're not losing. It's not about getting out of the provider protector conqueror kind of typical masculinity that we see today. This stuff enhances all of that and it creates greater connection to themselves, greater connection to their loved ones and their work and life gets easier.
00:21:50
Speaker
because you're being more of a complete human being instead of what we call a man. I fucking love being a man, but I love being a mindful man. I love being a passionate man. I love being an open man, but I'm also still can be a bro. You know what I mean? No doubt. And I love being a bro. You don't have a bro time and stuff like that. But when I get in those situations, I'm just bringing all of myself
00:22:19
Speaker
not just, you know, the bro and dude self, you know, it's all there, but it's like enhanced and kind of flavored and with, with like all these skills through mindfulness, but also practicing and realizing that, you know, there's a lot of amazing things that happens to a human being and to a man when they find peace. And I think that that's like what you said earlier. It's like, what, uh, what kind of turns the light on or how's it kind of, how do men get there?
00:22:45
Speaker
Well i'll tell you a story like i've actually through the podcast like you know people know that i'm a teacher i just had a dude hit me up through linkedin he's like hey will i want to start working with you never met the guy before in my life like don't know him at all but like you know so you know we connect and uh you know it's i'm sure you might experience this when i was a podcaster you know as soon as i maybe because you were
00:23:07
Speaker
therapist next year, you probably get this too, or maybe it's a little resistance as well. Yeah, it's both. Well, this guy, I just got like, I've never met this guy before in my life. And I think because he hears, you know, everything I talk about in the podcast, he just launches right in. And he's, I'm just gonna get really personal right now, Will. And he's like, this guy's like a fucking chief of police. You know, he was a, you know, a trooper for, you know, decades and stuff like that, like a manly man. You know what I mean? Right. He's like,
00:23:35
Speaker
He just goes in and starts talking about his marriage and all the sacrifices his wife has made and this and that. They're realizing some gaps in their relationship and she's like, you should get more mindful. You need to do something.
00:23:53
Speaker
And so we got in this whole conversation with him and he's like, Hey, would you like to talk to my wife? I'm like, what am I getting myself into? Like I'm not a therapist. You know what I mean? It's the mindfulness teacher, you know, that have a lot, has a lot of skills and practices and can definitely help a lot of people. So I talked to his wife. I'm going to, and I start with him on Saturday and it's like, you know, for me, it's like, and after knowing some of his backstory and knowing where he's coming from, but knowing like, you know, he's.
Breathwork and Its Benefits
00:24:16
Speaker
He's in his fifties now, you know, I'm just, you know, what, what really helps men and it's very non-confrontational, like, whereas like maybe something like journaling or, Hey, let's do some yoga or like, you know, could be like, I don't want to do yoga, yoga is for sissies or, you know what I mean? Whenever people talk about yoga, I'm just going to get this guy. First thing, I think anybody,
00:24:35
Speaker
you know, to really kind of get that first toe in the water, maybe the foot in the path of mindfulness is getting the call. And that's the best way to do that is find your breath. And just getting in touch with your breath again, like you're always in touch with it, but you don't realize how incredibly
00:24:51
Speaker
powerful it is until you see where it is in your body, right? You see how you can control more of your breath and you talk about all the polyvagal, you know, stuff with your, and it's like, but you have, without the breath, nothing, the door doesn't open. The door stays closed because you're locked in, you know, to this, you know, agitated state of stress and anxiety and, you know, all the fight, flight, freeze stuff. You know, because you're, you're just, cause hormonally you're jacked up, you know, on adrenaline cortisol mostly. And, but when you get,
00:25:19
Speaker
like to calm and people experience calm. And when you get to calm, you get the clarity and you get more connected and all these wonderful seas of the self. You just like, you're like, whoa, like there's just something, you know, when you meet, you know, the world as it is, which, you know, it doesn't seem like a very peaceful place sometimes, but like, you know, I always talk about like this quote, or I mentioned this quote by Emerson is like adapt to the pace of nature, her secret is patience, right?
00:25:45
Speaker
And when you get into that place of peace, which requires patients to be there, and that's another skill, but just to get to peacefulness through the breath and just to let go of all that burden or just let go of all that chatter of fucking all your obligations and shit and to-do list and your kids. It's just like, wow, the door starts to open there. And once that door swings open, typically, unless something very tragic happens,
00:26:11
Speaker
that you're never going to forget that experience. So that's where I usually start is just getting people to get to calm and then seeing kind of, it's unique to most people, like what's maybe next, but getting to the, I think another thing, and I think we talked about this on our show is like really getting into an embodied experience instead of just be so mentally and intellectually driven by all the,
00:26:37
Speaker
you know, the expectations that have been laid on and whatever man that is, you know, throughout their lifetime. Yeah. And I like the getting to calm because a lot of guys you're, it is for women too, but I mean, speaking, trying to speak with men here and of course women, but specifically with guys, I think, I think that chief of police guy, like, you know, he may have never had calm, like actual calm, maybe, you know.
00:26:58
Speaker
you know, or maybe glimpses, but probably not living there a lot, you know, because we can move in and maybe having glimpses or moments, maybe on his wedding day, you know, there's, we always have moments, but by and large, we could be living out of that state of, you know, our ventral state, ventral vagal state.
00:27:14
Speaker
But more a kind of activated kind of fight-flight state high stress Survival states and so getting to calm and when you first introduced that to these kind of guys Is it kind of receptive or do you still sense some of that kind of like hesitation for some guys initially?
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah, well, one thing that, you know, but usually by the time any man that kind of is tuning into my podcast, listening to the work we're doing, or, you know, they're already like, they've gotten to a point where like, what I've been doing isn't working, you know, so they're already receptive enough, you know, they're already open enough to try, right? And what's so nice about breathing, it's so it's so simple. Well, it's simple in the sense of like, you're always doing it, you're probably not aware of it.
00:27:57
Speaker
but let's just take it a little bit deeper and let's just work with a couple breathing techniques for 10, 15 minutes and let's talk about that experience. And then let's just deepen that experience a little bit more and maybe let's get in our body and just want you to just feel your body for a moment. And so it's very, I just like to, as I feel what I'm understanding my role as a teacher, I feel like a kindergarten teacher.
00:28:23
Speaker
in some ways. And I'm just like, let's just, you know, I strip it down so much that it's like learning the alphabet, you know, and learning to write and learning to paint, you know, with like primary colors, you know, it's just, you know, and it's like, and I say this like not in a disparaging way or not like, you know, I've learned like a lot of stuff in the Stanford course. One thing I learned is like small is all. So you just like start one small thing and it starts to open up the doorway to all these different opportunities. And, uh, and the breath is usually the best way to do that. So the guys that come to me,
00:28:54
Speaker
you know, like, like this guy the other day that hit me up, he's like, you know, he, he's realizing like, I'm, I might lose my wife, you know, I might lose my family, you know, like, I don't want to be that asshole anymore. You know, and, you know, and it's just like, there's a different way and you can be a mindful asshole. Like you can, you know, you can, you know, that's a funny, it's good. No, you can be, you can be a mindful asshole. That's great. That's, well, that's
00:29:22
Speaker
I mean, what is it? I think Ram Taw says is like you're, you know, if you're a son of a bitch before you're enlightened and then you become enlightened, you're just the enlightened son of a bitch. You know, you're aware, you know what I mean? It's still in there, but I don't have to exercise, you know, like these ways of being. I could take a choice, you know, I make a different choice. Oh my God, that's hilarious.
00:29:43
Speaker
That's so good. And even hearing this guy, it seems like to some degree, I think for some guys, and not all guys, but I think some guys, there's a theme here that even in therapy, sometimes I see is that it's to some degree, sometimes it takes a crisis or something to get them to like, wake it up. I wish you didn't, personally, I wish you didn't have to take a crisis or something like a,
00:30:02
Speaker
marriage might be over or whatever or an affair or things like that to like waken. But for a lot of guys it does. It takes that kind of something to hit to really, which I know there's that, we could talk about philosophy about that, that, you know, dark night of the soul, all these things that make you go and have to reflect because we can get so stuck on mindless automatic pilot, but all of a sudden you have this and it forces you to stop. Well, that's kind of when I went out, you know, just like that was my tragedy.
00:30:25
Speaker
like my heart was broken. I was just like, like, literally my whole life shattered. And it's just like, no, what? You know, so yeah. Yeah. And that was mine. I mean, that's why I went to therapy. Same thing. It was parents finally divorced after years of kind of up and down and then just finally
00:30:40
Speaker
Finally said we're actually officially getting divorced, you know with separation together separation together So I was like done with the roller coaster and then it just hit me one day I was in grad school for a total totally different degree and first semester and then they I got the phone call I remember got the phone call from mom and saying hey, we're officially officially divorcing like papers and I
00:30:59
Speaker
I just I remember just kind of going like like just kind of zoning out like just even though like I've kind of been checked out anyway from it for years because I was done with the I couldn't do the emotional roller coaster like oh they're back together again oh they're separate or they're back together again because I was I was done with it but it just hit me and I remember kind of numbing out like just kind of zone just everything kind of went quiet like tunnel vision I remember staring off and seeing hills and just kind of like silent and I'm like I think I need to talk to somebody
00:31:22
Speaker
And so then I did, I started seeing a therapist and I had a recommendation. I never saw a therapist before, never thought about it, but I was like, sure, you trust this person, I'll go talk to him. And then it started my therapy journey. And so I think there is something to say that that was my story, your story. So there is something about hitting that lace and answering the call, which is, you know, I don't know, not that every man requires that, but I mean, I don't know. It's always an interesting concept. That's both of those stories.
00:31:46
Speaker
Well, I think that's like one thing that gets in the way. I'm like, just we're talking about here. It's like, okay, when, when do we get help? Or when's the moment like we realize like, Oh, wait, I've been going about this wrong. I think one of the things that prevents us from like seeking help is the fact that we don't talk about our problems very often.
00:32:03
Speaker
where women, right? They talk about everything, you know what I mean? So they're used to talking, they're used to sharing, they're used to being open, they're used to, you know, having someone listen to them. Whereas like, man, it's like, shit, like, you know, until I have the group of friends that I have now, I can probably count on one hand the number of really deep, meaningful conversations I had with my friends.
00:32:26
Speaker
You know, like, because it's just like, we're, I think we, because of that, in our kind of social structures with men, because we don't really, we don't, we're not, we don't away or kind of are with each other in that way. Like we lose the skills of communicating effectively, really listening, you know, like, you know, not being judgmental, just holding space or just, you know, like one thing that another thing with men that, you know, we definitely know,
00:32:53
Speaker
is like, you know, we like to solve problems, you know, we like to negotiate with them. Like we want to be, you know, cause we get uncomfortable when other people of a lot of men are vulnerable with us. It's like, Oh, wait, what's this guy doing? Like, Oh, let's just fix the problem versus like all your, a lot of people I need to do is just be listened to, you know, and they can walk themselves into the answer very often. So like, I think that's another thing that we have
00:33:16
Speaker
as men working against us is just this lack of communication, the lack of communication skills that are really advantageous to really holding space for somebody.
00:33:27
Speaker
And why do you think that is from your experience, even anecdotally, why do you think that's hard for a lot of men to hold space or just even listen to others? I don't think it's been modeled. I don't think it's been modeled, you know, like depending on the type of dad you have or the type of family you have or the type of men you're around, right? We just don't talk about our problems, right? Or like, you know, when we do, I mean, of all like the books I've read, you know, with this podcast, it's just like, you know, vulnerability is weakness.
00:33:51
Speaker
Talk about your feelings is weak right and you know and that's like just to come back we said earlier it's like you gotta even though the tribe is the tribe is difficult to be a part of sometimes because of all of its weird rules that are unwritten but like yeah we know when we step out of line that we're gonna be shamed back in line so it's just like that's I feel the big origin for it so therefore we grow up and we become men
00:34:13
Speaker
you know, like whatever age. And then, you know, we start, then we have these moments where like, oh my God, my life is crumbling before me, my marriage. And it's just like, now what? And then it's like, after years and years and years of being kind of calcified and, you know, hardened in just being in one way, it's really tough to open up because there are layers and layers and layers of, you know,
00:34:38
Speaker
Expectations of masculinity that have been placed on you know every mostly most men that we're not you know We just like now what like how do I how do I talk about my feelings? That's another thing. Yeah
00:34:50
Speaker
you know, the emotional vocabulary between men and women, I bet would be like 10 to one, right? Or more. Yeah. Unless they had, yeah, unless they had training and we're not talking about the guys who've had, you know, maybe intentional fathers and mothers or me and you, I'm just kidding. Or yeah, you and me. Yeah. Obviously we're the elite, you know, we're the, you know, um, or special or in a special category. Maybe we're part of the category of the mindful assholes. No.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. There you go. But, you know, it's like, I think a lot of you are right. I think it's survival. And this, I keep coming and I've been wrestling with this. I think a lot of men are stuck in their own survival state. So it's more of that, you know, because I think the biggest question I get and set my DMs is from partners or sisters or mothers say, how do I reach my husband, partner, son, dad? Like, how do I get them into therapy?
00:35:38
Speaker
And I get that that's that's the number that's the I think if I take a poll that is the thing that's sent to me the most like as far as private dms among anything else asking hate the glove what you're doing how do I get my dot dot dot to to to do this and I think because I do believe that these men do need some care and inhale and healing and help and and support but they're
00:35:59
Speaker
typically these guys are stuck in their own isolated lone wolf rigid don't you know all the stuff that we've talked about the vulnerability it's weakness and I can't I can't show this I have to be the provide I gotta I gotta only be the provider protector and if I'm not that I'm nothing and so I the one thing I tend to say and you I'll be curious see what you would say is that the first thing we have to approach which is genuine curiosity and and listening to them and really allowing that and that could take time that's the hard part like it's not always gonna be
00:36:24
Speaker
I listen one conversation now they should just be able to do this like they have they have to also be in a place where they something inside of them is willing to change or do something different but it's always gonna start with listening without judgment which is hard to do because often there's there's stuff in these relationships often there's some hurt there and then that's that's why I think it's sometimes complicated it can be complicated and you have to wait and be willing to kind of what are you willing to do but if you listen and
00:36:49
Speaker
get to know them, what you'll find is that there's a story there. There's always a story. Just like these women, these partners have stories. It's like there's a story here and I always wondered, do you know his story? Like how well do you know his story? And I would say, you know, and even in therapy, I do couples work. Part of what I do initially is having them hear each other's story. And I'm modeling that by asking and having, you know, more so with the guy listening in. I don't say that to him, but often it's more of that.
00:37:14
Speaker
And also then having the wife or partner listen to the guy's story of, hey, do you know why he does what he does? Why he acts this way? And then you see the empathy go up like, I had no idea. I had no idea this is what he did and this makes sense now. And then he even hears her story and starts to kind of something clicks in him. And so once we do that, rather than kind of
00:37:34
Speaker
putting him on the defensive like well you just need to change because when we do that I think you're gonna come right up against his defenses of like what do you mean I need to change I'm not the problem because you're gonna push right up against his his survival mechanism is defending like that's what he's done his whole life is defend himself that in that inner child that's been wounded was like no I'm never gonna be hurt again so if you as soon as you like point and do this like you've like you're not gonna get that guy coming back
00:37:56
Speaker
which is sad because that's what we need, but if we have to find a way to reach those men, it's not gonna be through blaming, shaming, you need to change. Even if I know they need to change, like I know that, you know that. And sure, even deep down, he probably even knows that, but it's almost like that part of him is inaccessible because it's been so walled up. And I see this on social media too, all the time.
00:38:16
Speaker
And it's like if we could help in the work you're doing, the work that John's doing, I think, too, it's like, what I love what you do is like, dude, you got an ex-Navy Seal on there. It's like, if you want to talk about like, you know, I'm putting quotes manly, like this manly, manly, American, like.
00:38:31
Speaker
you know, epitome. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just do a seal. Right. And but then you hear me like, dude, this is a whole is you see the you see the kind of the 4K like the, you know, the 4D of like, yeah, he's got these these these character traits. And that's that's a that's a part of who the whole person of John is or even yourself. Like these are pieces. And my professor research, he said, you know, traditional masculinity traits aren't evil. They're not bad. It's when they become rigid. That's when they get you in trouble.
00:39:01
Speaker
And so how do we celebrate that? It's like you see this and you get this picture of like, oh, you could have, you know, you could learn how to harness anger in an effective way. Yeah. Or you could, you know, you could have courage and these different traits that we think it's like, those aren't bad. Like, those are good. It's just, we gotta use them effectively. And I think going back to what you said, full circle is, it's that kind of, and I'm having a brain fart because it's Friday.
00:39:27
Speaker
and I'm a dad and you know it's it's air right now in my brain as I'm trying to capture the word but you said it earlier it was um hey guys just those listening therapists also have trouble finding words in language I'm not the only one you know trust me you're not alone
00:39:43
Speaker
I'm trying to rescue you Travis. I'm being vulnerable. John, I'm so flat. Will, I'm flat. I called you John. So there you go. You're really flustered. I'm hot. I feel that. No, it's the, it's, it's self. It's the self master, self mastery. Thank you. That is self mastery. When you think about that, like if you, that's, that's the whole point. It's self mastery. And not only that, that self mastery, then it doesn't just go towards self.
00:40:09
Speaker
It begins with that going inward, which then naturally it will begin to flow outward because once you mask yourself, it starts to just intrinsically happen of like you then become this different being, so to speak, healthier and more holistic and aware because you're not only aware of yourself. You might start there, but it's going to naturally bleed out into your relationships with your family, friends, work, the world, neighbors, New York, right? California, it's just going to start to kind of expand.
00:40:35
Speaker
Well, I think, yeah, you kind of asked a question earlier and just to kind of summarize what we're talking about here is like, how do you get to that place? Like, how do you begin to roll? And it's like, well, you got to develop some, in order to hold that space for other people, you got to find that space within and say, and you need to develop a trust of that space too. Like that's a big thing. It's like, but the only way you gain that trust is through practicing, but also, and it's not like your practice is always going to be like one happy, joyful moment after another.
Self-Mastery and Connections
00:41:05
Speaker
Like, as you begin to sit, and I think, you know, meditation is such an incredible, it's like, it's an incredible tool. Like, it is something that, to be able to sit and be with yourself, however that self, yourself is that particular day, whatever has just happened or whatever is just coming up. Like, and just to be and hold that space for yourself and not beat yourself up for feeling this or doing that or something that happened earlier.
00:41:33
Speaker
you know, this is what this is like kind of that one of the first steps to self mastery is like know thyself, right? I mean, we hear it often, right? And you get in by just sitting and just getting still and getting quiet and making peace with everything that's going on around you, everything that's going on the inside, the thoughts, the feelings, like,
00:41:54
Speaker
the sensations in your body and just trying to stay in this neutral place. The Buddha, the way he speaks of it is the middle way, being in the middle, no aversion to whatever is going on in the world, but also no craving for anything else.
00:42:13
Speaker
You know, it's like, I mean, and like, it's good to have attention and goals and do this, but it's like, they're never gonna, life is never gonna be how you want it to be. I mean, that's what suffering is. Like, when we attach ourselves to something, like that's when we start to suffer, you know, but just to be able to mindfully and through the practice of mindfulness and being present and getting to calm, right? You, and also that trust of the self, you start to develop a trust through the world and realizing like, oh, instead of the world,
00:42:43
Speaker
being a threat, right? And if, like we talked about earlier, and if you're always in this heightened state of anxiety, everything, you're always in a defensive mode. So everything is a threat, right? But when we, when we eradicate or kind of shift, you know, through using the instruments of the body, using breath work, right, I can get to the self, but then it's like, and I realized that the world supports me, like there's a, there's a natural ebb and flow that kind of happens, like, as I've kind of,
00:43:11
Speaker
become more heart-centric and, you know, live a passionate life. It's just, I can't believe the doors, it opens sometimes. I'm like, holy shit, like where'd this come from? You know what I mean? But it's like, but like, but, but I'm also, you know, another thing that can get really kind of weird and esoteric for, for people or men in particular is just like, to realizing that we're just energy, right? And like the frequency that we put out, right, is the frequency we're getting back. And this is just, this is the way it goes. And it's just so what, what's your frequency?
00:43:40
Speaker
And if you're always humming at the same tune of this confined masculinity, if you will, then you're just going to keep producing those same results. But if you start to change, you start to be more open, other things start to happen. It's amazing. But I think another thing with men and what helps them to do that is getting around a tribe of other good men, or at least other men that are willing to sit
00:44:06
Speaker
take this risk and take these steps but also come back and talk about it because that's like a big thing that's missing amongst men is a real meaningful connection to other men. Yeah, I think groups are powerful. Yeah, groups are powerful. I think because they see other men risk.
00:44:21
Speaker
And all of a sudden it's like, ooh, I could, I could, it gives them permission. Like I could risk it. I'm not going to get blasted. Right. It's like, no one blasted that guy. That's weird. That's different. Cause I was expecting, but now I'm not getting blasted. So as we wrap up conscious of the time, I would, we could keep talking about like 10 more hours, but two things, one, where can we find you? So, you know, the podcast is men talking, mindfulness.com, you know, and John and I run the show together. So thanks for listening and tuning in.
00:44:46
Speaker
You know, for me personally, my brand is, you know, if you want to work with me personally, or just kind of consume what I'm doing, putting out there, you know, I have will not fear, will not fear.com. So W I L L N O T F E A R, you know, so that's where most of my stuff is. And then on Instagram, I'm will not fear. And, you know, on X, I'm will not fear. And, you know, LinkedIn is a good way to stay connected. Yeah, that that's, that's me in a nutshell, will not fear. I've, I've found that years ago from my journaling.
00:45:15
Speaker
from my journaling, right? I just, I started building this whole life and I started realizing that like, you know, I'm going to like, what's the corporation of I was, it's funny like through this journaling and I tell the story just cause I think this is like the transformation.
00:45:29
Speaker
You know, I was raised William. My name is William Schneider, right? My dad is William Schneider. We just have different middle names. So I'm not like a junior or a second. Also my grandfather is William Schneider. So I'm like waking up to all this and I was raised as Bill. And I was like, you know, I was like, I'm not Bill. Like, cause I'm not my dad. I love my grandfather too. I'm not that guy. So I changed the will. And as I started developing, like who the fuck is Will Schneider?
00:45:52
Speaker
You know, I was like, I don't know, this is like back in 2000, 2001, I just wrote, you know, will not fear came out one day. And I'm like, Oh, I'm going to get the email or even for social media.
00:46:02
Speaker
So that's just, I've been riding Will not fair for over 20 years. That's golden. I love it. I love that. Creative exercising through journaling, right? We know what's possible. No, it's amazing. And I'm wondering, so everyone listening, everyone's been linked below to find Will, his personal stuff, his amazing podcast with John McCaskill. It's all great. Please go listen to it. Share that, by the way. Anyone listening, go check out that podcast. It's phenomenal.
00:46:28
Speaker
I had a pleasure being on them. It's again, we're in a similar space. And I think it's just another resource to listen to, another good spot to kind of really engage this conversation. So now for a close, a final close, I'm wondering, you don't have to do this. I know you do this on your show. You could say no to this, but could you kind of bring us to calm for a short one, two minutes as we end today? Something different? Absolutely. Okay, good. We're going to do like a real breathing technique and then we'll drop in a little bit.
00:46:57
Speaker
deeper after this and we're gonna do like a double tap breath, right? So we're gonna take two inhales and like exhale out the mouth and we're gonna do this five times and then we're just gonna come back and just try to keep our breath nice and deep and that's it. And this is like, you can do this, anybody that's listening, you can do this simple technique. Anytime that you're feeling all that, you feel the asshole rising up, you do this breathing technique, right? Or it's like you're feeling anxiety, you're feeling this, feeling that, like this will help you to cut through
00:47:25
Speaker
all the thoughts and feelings that are going on in your mind and kind of get you to calm and get you to be clear. And when you get clear, you can really objectively observe like, you know, how next to best proceed. So yeah, eyes closed, eyes open, your choice. Let's just start with a nice little exhale out. Shouldn't really get empty, empty, empty, empty, empty. Let's take first inhale through the nose. And then second inhale. And let it go.
00:47:56
Speaker
And again, in, in, out. Let's just do a few more in, out. Last two in, in, out.
00:48:21
Speaker
Good. And one more big belly breath in second breath. Let it go out. And just come back, you know, from a normal breath and just observe without judgment. Just notice how you're feeling right now. And just after doing five rounds of breath,
00:48:43
Speaker
Just feel that breath and when you really, you know, one struggle I see when men start to reclaim their breath, it's like the breath is very often stuck in the chest. But when you drop that breath down into your pelvis, like down, you know, down below your belly button, this is like, it affects the vagus nerve, it shifts over and it tells the body like, hey, everything's okay, I can chill out.
00:49:06
Speaker
But you only get there by breathing deep and keeping that deep breath going. And you can just in this one, two minutes that we just did, I'm sure you can feel the difference in higher showing up right now. So that's, yeah.
00:49:24
Speaker
Thank you, Travis, it's been such a pleasure to be able to do this with you guys, yeah. No, thank you, Will. Thank you, that was amazing. That was a good little, I feel, it's amazing every time I do the breath, how simple the concept is. Like it's not complicated, like you said. The concept is simple and when you're actually able to engage it, the power can have.
00:49:41
Speaker
And I've done a lot of practice with this, so it's easier for me to go to that place and even for Will. So those that are listening, if you became aware of how crazy your mind is, I think what we would say is you are mindful of how crazy your mind is right now. That's actually... Yeah, so that's not failing. Yeah, you're not failing, you're aware now. And with practice. So I feel great, I feel calm even with the construction going on.
00:50:04
Speaker
Will, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. A blessing to you and all the work you're doing. Peace, good vibes, all those things to you over there in New York that you have an amazing rest of your day. And we'll talk soon, my friend. I'm going to plug in really quick. Oh, sorry. So we have a yoga retreat. I'm going to lead, you know, not a lot of experience necessary or no experience, yoga experience necessary in February in Guatemala with another yoga teacher. So you may want to join us for that February 4th, 10th. And then we have a mindfulness leadership retreat with, I'm leading with John.
00:50:34
Speaker
the man talking mindfulness podcast in May, Colorado Springs. So if you want to take like a long weekend and dive into mindfulness to be a better leader within, but also be a better leader in your life and in whatever
00:50:49
Speaker
business that you're doing, come join us. That'll be in May, I think it's some like, I don't know, 14th to 18th or something like that. Oh, great. I'll, yeah, send me those links. So all links, by the way, everyone will be in the description too, for both of those retreats and mindfulness experiences. And that way, if you do, please go. Like, absolutely join, join, join Will, join John. It's gonna be a great experience. I can tell you right now, they're great guys doing amazing work. So, hey Will, thank you, dude. You have an awesome rest of your day, man. Thank you, Travis. I appreciate your time. Thank you, everyone, for listening.
00:51:20
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.