Transcript
pjasper: Greetings and salutations, everyone. We are back. Woodworking is bullshit is back with greetings and salutations and a hot button episode that everyone apparently wants to talk about because we were inundated with responses on this show on perfectionism.
Mary: What?
pjasper: I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by Dave Woodworker by night, and I'm joined by Eric Curtis, fine furniture creator and fine content maker. and Kodamari Designs, Mary...
Mary: How many times can we say fine?
erockindahaus2nit: Well he's a fine fine boy.
Mary: Fine, guys.
pjasper: Hey, And I'm joined by ah Mary Tsai, fine contemporary furniture maker by night and the finest UX designer by day.
Mary: The finest.
erockindahaus2nit: This is out of the Mississippi
pjasper: All right, well, today's episode is a barn burner. We asked on ah several platforms, on Patreon, on Instagram, that we are gonna do or tackle the topic of perfectionism. And our inboxes were flooded with questions and responses. So right off the jump, as Eric likes to say, we knew that this was a really important topic that like everyone thinks about and or struggles with.
pjasper: So the question is, actually, I didn't really think about the question up front, but I'm just going to make it up right now.
erockindahaus2nit: love it oh
pjasper: Is perfectionism toxic to your creative process or is it potentially a help?
erockindahaus2nit: that's good right off the jump too that's good i don't know who any one of those fuckerss are so
pjasper: and Thank you, thank you. So, ah you know, in every episode, Mary likes to get her panties in a twist over over the the definition of things.
Mary: Jesus Christ.
pjasper: So let's start by a definition of perfectionism by Frost Martin, Lahart and Rosenblatt from 1990, Mary.
Mary: What?
pjasper: who defined perfectionism as, quote unquote, setting excessively high standards of self -expression, accompanied by excessively critical self -evaluation.
erockindahaus2nit: um
Mary: Interesting. Okay.
erockindahaus2nit: What can get right, right.
Mary: i like I like one part about that definition because it means that you set the var as opposed to there just being a standard var.
pjasper: Now.
Mary: Okay.
pjasper: Yes.
erockindahaus2nit: Can I, can I ask what their background was? Like, are they psychologists? Are they economists? What's the situation?
pjasper: their psychologist, but in the review article that I took this particular definition from, they gave 10 other definitions by 10 other groups of psychologists. So I really had to just...
Mary: Oh, this is like my wet dream here.
erockindahaus2nit: Interesting.
pjasper: it You did not just say that!
Mary: So many definitions!
erockindahaus2nit: Mary, this is a children's show!
Mary: I love all the definitions!
erockindahaus2nit: Christ!
erockindahaus2nit: She did, man. Listen, this is the truth. She got her panties in a bunch, and it's a wet dream.
pjasper: Okay.
erockindahaus2nit: It's...
pjasper: Okay, okay, okay.
pjasper: So it's clear that one of the problems, oh boy, one of the ah one of the problems in researching perfectionism has been the inability to concretely define it because there's 20 million definitions, okay? So much of this, um Much of the perfectionism they think in the research literature relates to a somewhat misguided idea about one's ideal self. Like who are you ideally? As if you have this idea in your head of really who you should be versus who you are. And it's and they say misguided, right? Because it it's far higher apparently than you than you are. And it often can have profound effects on one's mental health. And that has been born out in the literature and in life time and time again.
Mary: How weird would it be though if you met someone and they're like, I am perfect.
erockindahaus2nit: I don't...
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, those people exist.
Mary: That's so not humble.
erockindahaus2nit: They're called narcissists. That's how the world works, yeah.
Mary: Yeah, their name is Eric Curtis. Yeah, I know.
erockindahaus2nit: Listen, I love me.
pjasper: ah
erockindahaus2nit: It's fine. I won't not admit it. um But the the thing that immediately jumps out to me, and I don't know if they are showing their their hand or if they are attempting to be well -rounded in their definition, but that you said two things that showed that these people were assuming perfectionism to have a negative component to it, right?
pjasper: Well,
erockindahaus2nit: The excessively high standards and the whatever the second thing you said about, I don't know,
pjasper: well yeah. about excessively critical self -evaluation.
erockindahaus2nit: Yes, excessively self self critical. And I think from my perspective, if I were to attempt to go full Mary and define perfectionism, I think I would I would simply say that it is the seeking of perfection, like it is the attempt to be perfect.
Mary: You can't use the word in the definition.
pjasper: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: the the seeking The seeking of better than, right? Like, how do you how are are we going to define perfect? Like, what are we doing here? the The point is this. The point is not to put a positive and a negative in the definition. The point is the seeking.
pjasper: Lame no, I'm just kidding.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, like, what are we going to do? We're going to sit out here and be like, perfectionism is when one attempts to, like, seek godliness.
pjasper: I'm Hmm Oh Mary i I'm Mary I'm I'm on TV
erockindahaus2nit: But also, it's a bad thing.
Mary: Well, I was going to say like, I was going to say like striving for like flawlessness or something.
erockindahaus2nit: Alright, flawlessness is a different word for perfection. Like, you can't...
Mary: Still did not use the word in the definition.
erockindahaus2nit: That's horseshit. You can't define... You can't define blue as the color of the sky. Like, that's not...
Mary: It's a mixture of yellow and green.
erockindahaus2nit: What?
Mary: Sorry.
pjasper: All right, enough, enough, enough, all right.
erockindahaus2nit: Sorry? Did you? Hold on, hold on, no, no, no, no, no, no, no we gotta dive into Mary's color theory. are Are you suggesting that blue is a mixture of yellow and green?
Mary: Oh. It's the other way around. Whoops.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, that's not correct.
Mary: Color theory is not my strongest.
erockindahaus2nit: Alright. Fucking call me out on using the word and the definition, but then try to pull that shit on me.
Mary: Primary color.
pjasper: ah All right, so it's, i was I am on your side about using the word and the definition.
Mary: Wait, wait, wait, Paul. Whose side were you on? Who are you saying?
Mary: Thank you. Thank you.
erockindahaus2nit: Okay, then give me a better definition that doesn't have a clearly negative bend.
pjasper: Well, you know what, most of the definitions, actually all of the definitions have a negative bend because that's the overwhelming results of the research over much time. Only recently in the last few years has research on in the psychological literature on perfectionism actually even considered the positives, what might be positives. So, um, you know,
erockindahaus2nit: So you're suggesting that the answer is self -evident? Or at least we assumed it to be self -evident?
pjasper: I do think that the the majority of the time perfectionism does lead to negative outcomes.
erockindahaus2nit: I can't disagree with that.
pjasper: I think in the majority of cases, now there are some cases where people benefit from their perfectionistic tendencies when used in moderation.
erockindahaus2nit: That's fair.
pjasper: That's my, that's where I'm at on that.
erockindahaus2nit: but But that's true of everything, though, you know? Like, if if you stay in the shop for 18 hours a day and forget to eat, like, you're gonna be dead in a couple of months, you know?
pjasper: Okay. Okay, that doesn't mean it's not valid because it applies to other situations.
erockindahaus2nit: Alright, fine.
pjasper: Okay, so ah one one more interesting thing about perfectionism, like the root cause of perfectionism. So it's often caused from a combination of either genetic predispositions, so you can be wired for it, or environmental ah environmental factors.
erockindahaus2nit: Hmm.
pjasper: Mary such as child such as childhood experiences with excessive criticism, Mary, or i don't i don't I don't know why I keep saying your name, or inherent personality traits that have developed throughout your life, such as anxiety due to trauma, like there's, there's a lot of different reasons one can feel these perfectionistic tendencies.
Mary: I had to say my name twice there.
erockindahaus2nit: Thanks.
pjasper: Now, Mary, you thought that um that some of this was obvious, like that it was you know that it was obvious that there were negative outcomes associated with it. um Eric, you beg the question, is it that obvious? you know Might there be positives? So ah before we get into perfectionism in your work and art, which we're going to handle at length, We're going to talk about perfectionism at the start of a project, the middle of a project, at the end of the project, selling your project. like We're going to get into all that. But right from the start, can you explain to me why you thought it was self -evident about perfectionism?
pjasper: And Eric, maybe you could share why you think it could be positive.
erockindahaus2nit: Are we bringing back the debate club already?
pjasper: Web's Debate Club.
Mary: we don't We don't have time for a debate club. We got too much to get through.
pjasper: Web's Debate Club.
Mary: i mean so In terms of the positive, it's in the name, right? You're like striving to make yourself better, to get to that level of perfection that you set for yourself. So that's why I thought it was obvious. so like Of course, yeah it means that you're pushing yourself. You're kind of not setting a bar where you're like, OK, this is good enough, whatever. um But again, obviously, the negative side comes into play. And there's there's too much of that. It becomes self -crippling.
Mary: And it can cause stress, anxiety, procrastination, et cetera. So that's what I thought was obvious. Maybe there are other hidden agendas.
pjasper: Okay. And Eric, Eric, you thought there were points that were not so obvious about this. What what did you what did you mean?
erockindahaus2nit: Well, so in my opinion, or in my approach, I should say, I would say that perfectionism helps me to attempt to be better every time, right? And I think we can all agree that that's often a net positive. And As I was at like, so to your point earlier, you said that a lot of people responded to the questions we put out on social media and a lot of people did. And the overwhelming response that I got, like 90 plus percent were negative experiences of the perfectionism about how it it cripples people from finishing a project or even starting a project sometimes.
pjasper: Right.
erockindahaus2nit: And I think like this can be applied outside of furniture or woodworking in like, you know, there are people who have so much anxiety about planning the perfect vacation that they like, they get overwhelmed by it.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: And that sometimes they don't even go on that vacation. And yet I would also argue that like perfection can come at times. The world is not a perfect place. We know the world is not a perfect place. And I'm not claiming that the world can be a perfect place. I don't think it ever will be. However, like your experience of a moment can be perfect. I think we've all had like in, in Paul, I would ask you if you've ever had a perfect day, right?
pjasper: That's such a great question because it gets into the idea of how do you define perfect?
erockindahaus2nit: Mm, it's the acceptance. That's ah it's a key component of it because all of the components are not necessarily gonna be perfect, but when it comes together as the whole, you look back on it and you go, shit, that was a perfect fucking day.
pjasper: I wanna tell you, yes, I wanna tell you a saying I heard that relates to what you just said about thinking your day is perfect. And this thing this saying, like so many sayings in one ear at the other, right? All these adages and idioms, right? But this one stuck with me because I think it was true and I didn't realize it was true until it became true in my own life. And that was happiness is not getting what you want. It's learning to want, appreciate, what you already have.
pjasper: And that re that is like redefining perfectionism. If you see your life and if you stop wanting all the time and you start to appreciate and have gratitude for what you have, suddenly what was imperfect seems way, way more perfect.
erockindahaus2nit: year Your perspective shifts, yep.
pjasper: And the gratitude sky rocks. Yes, the gratitude shifts and your happiness, your personal happiness shifts. That was huge for me, because I was always looking down the road for something or outside myself. And I've been able to switch that over the last five to eight years, and that has made a huge difference. So to your point, do you have you had a perfect day? I think it depends on how you define perfect.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, and there's a reason I asked you if you've had a perfect day and I didn't ask Mary because I knew you would have different answers to that question.
pjasper: and
erockindahaus2nit: But Mary, I'll ask you this. Have you had a perfect moment?
Mary: Moment?
erockindahaus2nit: Has there been a moment and I'm going to, I'm going to guess moments in your life where looking back on it, you were like, that was, that was a perfect moment. Like all of the the stars aligned, everything happened and it just was the apex of that experience.
Mary: Yeah, I'm sure I have. I'm trying to think of like specific examples to come to mind.
erockindahaus2nit: No, we don't need specific examples, you know, life life is life.
Mary: It's hard. But yeah, I Yes, I can definitely say that there have been days when like this is just like, I don't know if I'd call it perfect, but like this was an amazing day. Like this was just so good. This was like the happiest I've been in a long time.
erockindahaus2nit: So let's let's, if you don't want to put perfect on it, if you don't want to put perfect on it, let's call it amazing then. Like that is as near too perfect as one can can achieve without it being perfect.
Mary: It's highly correlated to my happiness too. It was like, I was so happy this day.
erockindahaus2nit: sure sure and i think that's a huge component of it now i think we have all made objects where in a moment as a thing is that we hit that flow state like something goes right it comes together maybe it's the first thing you've ever made where like you look back on it and you're like of course it's not perfect but in that moment it was perfect because it was the first time i had ever
pjasper: that redefines your perspective.
erockindahaus2nit: Cut dovetails right and it came out just right or like you put finish on a project where you deliver a project to ah a client and they're just elated their ecstatic it's it's it is a perfect moment and i don't think that you can separate that from. the experience of being a woodworker and say, like well, the piece isn't perfect. like That moment was perfect. And that that tells the story of the piece. And I think with time and experience and the number of objects that you make, you can look back on some of those objects and you go, oh, that was that was perfect in its definition of perfection.
Mary: i do have a I do have a moment that I remember.
pjasper: Eric, I...
Mary: ah the The top one that comes to mind is like when I was trying to i was like floundering for so long during my master's thesis of like what is my final like ultimate project would be. And I was trying to like mess up all these machines. And I like basically fucked up a 3D printer. And then the end result, I was like, look how amazing this is. I like fucked up a 3D printer and like just made it do all these crazy things. And then i was and like so many failures, obviously. And then this one thing. came out that was so cool and I immediately like took it ran around to everyone being like look at this look at this thing that I just made and I granted my professor across the campus and I remember just like being so elated like yes this is it yeah that
erockindahaus2nit: Well, and and I think part of the reason that that stands out in your brain is because it was unique, right? It was one of one. If that happened every day, you would expect it and it would be like, every meal you ever have isn't the best meal you've ever had.
Mary: is true that is true
erockindahaus2nit: Like that's not how the reason they stand out is because it was special in some way. And I think where perfectionism starts to become a negative thing is when you assume and expect that it will happen every time.
Mary: If it's commonplace, yeah.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: And if you
Mary: That's fair.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: if like part of my journey is accepting that the thing isn't going to be perfect and then when it happens to be perfect like it is it's
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: i don't even know like it transcends the human experience somehow it's it's other than and I think that's the value of perfectionism is it's not seeking that assuming that it will be that every time and expecting that you can achieve that every time but it's allowing the space for that special thing to occur and if you don't if you shut that down then you never you never get the opportunity to experience that
pjasper: Wow, Eric, that is a very that I'm gonna have to think about that for a while. Honestly, I hadn't really thought about it that way.
Mary: I think Eric just won a debate club.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, well the the in full disclosure, like the the theological underpinnings of where that idea comes from is like, you know, the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church have this idea of like every person is is completely imperfect, riddled with sin, yada, yada, yada.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: And we don't have to get too deep into it. But in the Orthodox Church, there's this belief of like, you can achieve perfection. And it might not be a thing that lasts forever. You may be perfect in a moment or for a period of time and just because you've sinned before then doesn't mean that you can't transcend that in a moment.
pjasper: Hmm.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: And I think that taking that concept and applying it to our creative practice is that's how I approach perfectionism.
pjasper: That's what you just said, basically, to Mary. That's very interesting. All right. So Eric, thank you. I'm going to re -listen to that multiple times and think it through because I don't think I grasped the full weight of it in the moment. Just hearing it the first time, I will re -listen to it. And often I hate to admit this, but so many times Eric, shit you say in the moment, I like said, I'm like, yeah, that's good. Gloss over it. And then I listened to the podcast again. I'm like, fuck, that was a really, that was even better than I realized in the moment. It was good.
erockindahaus2nit: It's alright buddy, I love you too man, it's fine.
pjasper: You do good, you do good, you bastard. Okay, so if I can summarize, so before, now we're gonna get into the creative process, but before I'd like to summarize sort of what we, where we are. So obviously perfectionism can be tied to, if you're a failure, Right? It can be tied to procrastination because the goal is excessively grandiose and we need like ultimate preparation before we even start in terms of huge swaths of free time or huge like skill sets before we even want to try because we can see the goal up on that mountain. as It seems too much. So procrastination comes in. These are the negatives.
pjasper: ah A laser like focus during the execution and on results instead of sort of big picture about personal happiness or relationships or multitasking and the rest of your life while you're laser while you're laser focused and of course a highly self critical. ah yeah being highly self critical about the outcome leading to a sense of low self esteem at times now those are some of the negatives i think some of the positives are strong ambition to improve everytime eric i think you said that extreme perseverance.
pjasper: Keep trying. You know, I definitely I relate to that one, man. You just keep putting your head down and put in the time and keep going. That's a positive. Huge jumps in quality each attempt. You know, sometimes when you try something, you know, you get these small iterative, like, in you you know, increases in quality or whatever. But I think perfectionists can have very large jumps all in one shot. and also a high standard of excellence. They just will not let products go that are shitty. right So I think those are some positive attributes of perfectionism as well as the negative. Now, let's bring it to the creative process. So I got so many responses that the only framework I could think of to organize them in a reasonable way is to say, all right, maybe we could talk about all of these questions in the form of like the start of a project
pjasper: the execution and the middle of a project, and then the end, completing the project, but also then selling it, advertising it, and talking about it later. So there's four major book chapters I'd like to start with. So with regards to starting a project, what here's one of the questions. What do you all do to overcome the mental paralysis or avoidance due to perfectionism at the start of a project?
erockindahaus2nit: In short, start with a skeleton, don't flesh it out. now This is it's might just and this not advice, this is how I approach it, this is my perspective. I never flesh an idea out all the way before I start it because, number two things. Number one, like I know that I'm not good enough at illustration or CAD work to get it to a point where I think it's going to be perfect. And number two, I just like i i need that, that freedom as I'm making a thing to make decisions on the fly. And that's what I think allows me to make interesting objects. And I can't do that beforehand. If I tried to do that beforehand, I would be paralyzed because it would never be perfect in a CAD programmer on a piece of paper. So get a skeleton, get an armature, if you will, to which you can start adding material into play and give yourself space to make decisions in there. That's how I approach it.
pjasper: But the skeleton, Eric, let me push back. Having a skeleton to a perfectionist is not enough. They don't feel ready with just a skeleton. That is not acceptable. i You know what I'm saying? Mary, go ahead.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: You're smiling, Mary. I feel like you could speak to this. What do you think?
Mary: Yeah, mine's ah basically the opposite of what I said. Because I am, I know I'm a perfectionist, and for me the beginning is probably the most important part of the entire process because I like to flush things out to completion. Like I like to go through hundreds of sketches once I hit the sketch that I think I like. The sketch is never like picture perfect either. But once I hit like some sort of scribble that I like, then I'll hone in on that, model it up. And then there it is important to build in areas for play. However, I'm such like a plant like type A. like I need to plan every sort of
Mary: section and phase person that I'm like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. This is the area that I'm gonna plan out where I can play. but It's like a small thing and then I can move on. It has to be like a list that I check off and like, I've done this now, I've done this now.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: So I really like things to be done at the beginning and designed fully and Eric can the test to this that that is very crippling for me, in which I'll just like completely not build something for ages because I'm not happy with it. And i've I've said this in the past before, like I don't, I don't have the luxury of having a lot of time. So if I am building something, I want to know that I'm going to be happy with it in the end. And sometimes if I don't follow this process, then sometimes I'm not happy in the end. But you know,
erockindahaus2nit: but
pjasper: So Mary, you are the most perfectionistic of the three of us, right? So self self -proclaimed, right?
erockindahaus2nit: Not even close.
pjasper: Okay, so the question was, though, and you didn't answer it, what do you do to overcome?
erockindahaus2nit: ah
Mary: What?
pjasper: What do you owe what do you do to overcome that you describe the mental paralysis beautifully, but an avoidance?
Mary: Oh, I see.
pjasper: But what do you do to overcome it?
Mary: yeah Sometimes don't. Sometimes I just don't overcome it and it's paralyzing, but other times I, there's a few different routes that I can take.
erockindahaus2nit: That's fair.
pjasper: that
Mary: um I look outward, so I ask for suggestions and advice from friends. I think that's really helpful in giving me a direction.
erockindahaus2nit: Hmm.
pjasper: That's great.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: Great answer.
Mary: um That's probably my main go -to.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: Otherwise, my other one, if I'm like really just in a hole, I'm like, all right, fuck it, I'll just like start making something. Another one is, this is kind of related, but I like to make little models, like small models, and I think that seeing that in like 3D and being able to play with it I think that helps hone in on like a final design for me. But I think my yeah my main answer is probably going to be, I ask other people, friends, woodworkers, designers, et cetera.
pjasper: Great, great, great. Okay, so that was our main question about starting a project. Now, there's a lot of questions about during the execution phase or the middle of a project. So, Eric, what if the project isn't turning out as good a you as as good as you had hoped? Are you losing enthusiasm along the way because it's not living up to your dreams and aspirations?
erockindahaus2nit: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, no, that's ah that's a real problem. Like it happens. And you, the listener, are not unique in that struggle, right? That is a real, like, I think all three of us, like I know we've all had conversations where we're like halfway through the project and we're like, this fucking sucks. Like, I don't know what's going on. And I don't even know what's wrong with it, right? I'm just like waiting out into the fucking muck trying to be like, maybe this'll work. And then you try it and it doesn't. And then you're more frustrated with it.
erockindahaus2nit: um So that is ah like coming back to acceptance, I think like that's part of the process. And then to Mary's point about having conversations with people, like that's when I turned to people. Larissa is around most often, so I turned to her most often. But I've talked to both of you guys about design ideas and and needing like, what do you think? What do you see? And you might see something that resonates with me. Or you might say something that I entirely disagree with and I can throw that out.
erockindahaus2nit: And I think that's something that that um people early on in their creative journeys struggle to do is like take feedback and then realize that feedback is useless to me.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: Doesn't mean you don't appreciate that person or their their input, but for this particular instance, that's not valuable. So turning to other folks having conversation and learning to discern what's useful and what's not.
pjasper: So I've had it happen to me where I'm doing something and it's certainly not turning out as good as I had hoped. I've had that many times. And I do what, Eric, what you said is I talk, I pause, I hit the pause button and I talk to people, I reconsider and I redesign until that and that sense of enthusiasm comes back about the failure. Like I remember in a jewelry box, I was designing these little holders for earrings and rings. And I thought it would be cool like kinda messy cobblestone carved and look like a big pile of shit and I was really upset.
Mary: hahaha
pjasper: And and and i and I realized it didn't it needed more structure. That's all I know is it needed more structure. It was too organic, too messy. And instead of losing enthusiasm throughout the project, I hit the pause button And I took a step back and I was thinking maybe instead of cobblestones, plant cells, like literally from like plants, like I started looking at electron micrographs of plant cells, which have a more way more organized structure, but they still have a touch of organicness to the lines.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: And I used that and I was reinvigorated. Like it lit me on fire. It re -lit the fire that had kind of extinguished. So I do think, you know as you said, Eric, talking to people ah or redesigning and hitting the pause button redesigning can help your enthusiasm along the way. All right, next question. Often I find myself not wanting to do the next step in a project, because I knew it wasn't gonna come out as good as I had planned or I was scared it wasn't gonna go well because it was on uncharted territory for me. I hadn't done it a hundred times before. How do I get past that that procrastination of wanting to start the next step? Mary, you're on the hot seat.
Mary: Hmm. That's a good question. how How are you going to finish your project then? Because for me, that's a little motivation. I want to get to the end. I want to see the final product and.
pjasper: Well, what if you, what if Mary, you come into a step where the next step is something really, I i don't know what I'm doing and it's got to be perfect.
Mary: Hmm.
pjasper: What, what, how what do you do?
Mary: I would do test pieces. If it's like a technique that I don't know, then I would absolutely do test pieces and ah see if it works and you don't mess up your actual piece.
pjasper: That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Mary: And if it doesn't work and you can learn from your mistakes, the more test pieces you do, the better you're going to get at it.
pjasper: Okay, great answer. Okay, next. Are there certain parts of projects that require more perfection than others? For example, should certain parts of a project be more perfect? ah Do you tolerate imperfections in certain places more than others? For example, joinery with big gaps does not look good. But at the same time, I use wood that has literal fucking holes in it, because it's burl. And I don't fill them with epoxy. I think the holes are beautiful.
pjasper: And there's chip out on my corners sometimes, like literally the corner of a box, like the edge, the top edge has a gigantic chunk missing. And you know what? I fucking love it. And I leave it.
Mary: Hahaha.
pjasper: But if you see a gap in a miter or a a joinery or finish, like we're where where is perfection required and where is it not and why?
erockindahaus2nit: Well, I want to point out first of all that the imperfections that you were leaning on and embracing are material and organic imperfections and not your own, right? And that's so that's that's it that's a very key differentiation.
pjasper: Very good, very good. Very good.
erockindahaus2nit: um But I think even so so in short, I think if we're going to to put a hard definition on it, perfection the aim for perfection lies within the craft, like the the skill set of the craftsperson, right? So your joinery, the execution, maybe your design if design is your craft. But I think there's also tolerance within that. So for example, we've all cut dovetails.
pjasper: Yep.
erockindahaus2nit: Every one of you fuckers who've cut dovetails knows that the interior corners of your dovetails Don't fucking matter because nobody gives a shit and nobody's ever gonna see him.
Mary: Yep.
erockindahaus2nit: That's how it works, right? So like sure a gappy joint looks terrible You know where nobody's ever gonna see a gap inside a mortise and tenon.
pjasper: yeah ah
pjasper: Eric, Eric, how about on the half blind dovetails on the inside of the drawer, the overcut?
erockindahaus2nit: That's how it works Yeah, nobody gives a shit nobody gives a shit well
pjasper: I love when I see it. When I see that on period furniture, I get turned on.
erockindahaus2nit: And that's another wet dream.
pjasper: ha Mary gets turned on by definitions and I get turned on by curve overcuts and dovetails.
erockindahaus2nit: ah So there's...
erockindahaus2nit: we all hey we all have our kinks you know uh so but but the like there are people who see that and they they want that because that tells them that it was made by hand and not machined out right so imperfections doesn't necessarily mean that the thing isn't perfect and there is room within uh an individual piece or just even an individual joint like
Mary: ah
pjasper: Mm hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: a joinery surface, right? A dado, the bottom of a dado is not going to be as clean as the show surface of a piece. That's how it works. Old time cabinets. Turn one of those fucking armwars around and look at the back of that cabinet. That thing is straight off the the scrub plane or off the pit saw. Like they're just beat to hell because it didn't matter. Nobody's ever going to see it.
pjasper: I love seeing the scrub mark planes on the bottom of my Windsor chairs and my high chest.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: I left them ah because I think they tell the story of the human who made it.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And when I see them, I think about their hands literally grabbing a scrub plane and going along the length. Like I can picture it because I saw the marks.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, so so then that asks the question, like, where does your definition of perfection fall, right? So is it is it the object in itself has to be technically perfect as though it was CNC'd, or does the composition as a whole, including the maker, create perfection?
pjasper: No.
pjasper: Humans are perfectly imperfect and I'm all about seeing the human element. So actually, Mary, that's funny. let' Let's include you. So I gave an example of a hand carving on a previous post on Instagram. I carved something by hand and I carved something by CNC. And I asked, would you pay more for the hand one done one? The hand car version had imperfections in it because, well, it's done by hand. And the CNC was literally perfect. And I said, would you pay more? And most people said, yeah, I'd pay more for the hand done one because it's the hand of the maker. I want to see that. But Mary, you said the opposite. You're like, I like the, I like the perfect one.
Mary: Yeah, it's not like I didn't like the hand -carved one. I think I liked the the CNC one because when I looked at the design, I thought that the cleanliness of the CNC cuts fit the, it balanced out the design that you had carved into it, but ah design is subjective.
pjasper: Yeah.
Mary: So I understand why people said that, but personal preference.
pjasper: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.
pjasper: I love that answer. I do, I love that answer. All right, next question. ah By the way, that last question was contributed by my good friend David. duer David, I love you. ah Next question.
erockindahaus2nit: What's up DD?
pjasper: If you know you can do a better job on if you know you can do a better job on something,
Mary: ah oh no
pjasper: should you redo it and start over or use that lesson to do better on the next project?
erockindahaus2nit: No.
Mary: No!
erockindahaus2nit: No, no. Well, all right, we hold on timeout, because there's a major caveat here. If it is a commission, or if it is a piece for a client that you are then going to take to them, there is the consideration like business ethics, right? Like if they are paying you to make a high wage to make the best possible object, I have started over under those circumstances, because The thing is not right. And the client is paying me a wage to the point where they deserve it to be right. So that's one consideration. Outside of that, then no. Just you should never start over just because it's wrong. Because sometimes when you get something wrong and it forces you down another path, you discover something really interesting and it can elevate the piece beyond what you thought it was going to be.
erockindahaus2nit: if there is space to play in there.
pjasper: All right. So it depends. It depends whether it's your own piece or so there's money attached with the expectations of a customer.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah. Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, if it's a speculation piece, then yeah.
pjasper: So I guess you have to draw you have to draw the line, I suppose.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And so that brings us, we're going to put a pause. Now we've handled like starting the project, ah some questions about the middle of the project, but we're going to put a pause here before we start about how do you finish projects, right? The pause is for the overwhelming most asked question of every single person. So i this question was asked more than any across all the responses I got. And Eric, you had 50 or 60, and I had probably 30 or 40. All right, you ready? I think you probably know what it is. How do you tell if something is good enough? Where where do you draw the line?
pjasper: How do you keep a healthy balance? Is there a reflex or feel you develop for knowing where the line is? Where it's good enough and not to go into the negative side of perfectionism? Et cetera.
erockindahaus2nit: God damn, that's a hard question.
Mary: It's a, it's a really hard question. It's also, it's something I know we're in a woodworking world, but it something that I encounter a lot in my day job too, as a UX designer, cause I have to make compromises a lot of the time, either from like technical limitations or, you know, we're under a tight deadline, et cetera.
pjasper: ah Mary, Mary, this question is like everything, whether you're cooking dinner for friends, like, is it good enough?
Mary: So that's something.
Mary: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: Mm.
pjasper: You're like, did I, I mean, it's literally, how do you know if it's good enough?
Mary: True.
pjasper: It it applies to so much of our lives.
Mary: I do think it is something, it's a learned experience or it's something that you are able to develop and hone much better through experience and over time um a lot ah over a bunch of projects. Because of course the first time you make something, you're going to want to be like, it's going to be perfect. and like It's that amazing naivety naivete that makes you you know like ah a great new designer and a new craftsperson who's excited to explore the world. but i don't really have a good answer to be honest.
Mary: like I do think that there is some sort of a gut feeling for me. like i I think that I am able to recognize when it's worth moving on.
pjasper: Yeah. Yeah.
Mary: I don't know how to describe it though. like I'm not as eloquent as Eric of how to I just don't know. It's more of a gut feeling of like, this isn't worth it, your time. And I think you're going to be happier moving on rather than agonizing over over something every making something and that happiness later. I don't know. It's i'm kind of like weighing the pros and cons of how I'm going to be feeling later about it. Is it going to be reaching that like full, like that final peak of happiness that we talked about?
erockindahaus2nit: What I found over time that I cannot live with is if I hand a thing over to a client or attempt to sell a thing that I know I cheated myself on or cheated the client on because time, money, whatever it is. So if I'm making a decision to not do a thing or not to try to make it better because I don't feel like it, that's not a thing that I can live with. I feel like the client deserves my attention more than that. um Or I deserve my attention more than that. Like I love woodworking. I made the choice to do this thing for a living and it is a major component of my life and it deserves my attention. If however, it's imperfect
erockindahaus2nit: because I had a certain amount of time to do the thing. And I did my damnedest to make it perfect within that time period. And it's not, that's fine. I can live with that. So for me, I don't know how to answer this outside of you know personal experience, but for me, I know it's done when I've done my damnedest to make it as good as I can. And if it's not, it doesn't even have to be perfect. If it's not good at the end of that, I can at least honestly say like i i I swung the stick.
erockindahaus2nit: I didn't go down looking. I didn't take the K. I just fucking struck out. That's how it works. you know like got it it's i mean it's Listen, I'm sorry. I grew up playing sports. You never go down looking. okay You swing the stick.
pjasper: Okay.
erockindahaus2nit: If it's close, you swing the stick.
pjasper: All right.
erockindahaus2nit: And if you swing the stick, at least you can say to yourself, I tried to fucking hit the ball. you know Maybe I missed, but that's fine.
Mary: So you're it's kind of like, can you live with it, basically?
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, can can I live with looking at that piece in the future, knowing that it's not perfect, but knowing that I genuinely attend. And this is like, this is not me telling the client this, this is not me trying to convince other people that this this is just me looking at an object and saying like, can I live with the idea that this is the way it is? And I attempted to make it as good as I can. And if I did, If it's imperfect, look, you you only have so many hours, you know, you got to get a piece out the door because of a client, or you don't only have so many you know weekends in the year from your day job to to go make a piece.
erockindahaus2nit: so And your spouse is like, you've been working on that fucking dining table for 18 months. Maybe just put a goddamn coat of finish on it.
pjasper: Yeah. Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: Get it out the door.
Mary: Is this just for a client though? Like what if it's for yourself?
erockindahaus2nit: I think the same thing applies. Like I make speculation pieces and I give myself a time limit. And the thing is, is like, I'm going to attempt to make the best piece that I can within that time limit. And then once I get to the end of that, like it is what it is. Like you have to, you have to cut and walk away from it at some point and you can't let it haunt you. You just, you have to learn from it.
pjasper: So my answer is more like Mary's. In a essence, like, well actually it's like both ears. There's just a gut feeling when it's good enough. How do you, where's the line? You just have a gut feeling and that comes through repetition. Sorry, that's the answer.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: If you only do, think of it like, think of it like establishing an average of something. Like we know that the average, you take the the sum and divide by the number of observations, right? That's an average. so if you think about like what's good enough that being the average right you need a lot of observation sometimes you exceed the average sometimes you under do the average and but you need a lot of a lot of data points and you start to feel like okay that's good enough that's kind of shitty i'm not usually down there and it's personal to you
pjasper: Like you have to do enough pieces to know where your line is so i think people asking ah you know i think a lot of the people asking you know where's the line how do you tell if it's good enough i think we'll figure out their own answer in time and with repetition.
erockindahaus2nit: I think that's an excellent point. And that's a thing that we don't grant ourselves enough of in this time period is we all like, I don't know if this is social media thing, just like the contemporary pace of society, whatever it is, but we never grant ourselves the time to learn. and be a novice at a thing. Like the moment you're a novice woodworker, now you're telling people you're an intermediate woodworker.
pjasper: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: And the moment you're an intermediate woodworker, you're running a side hustle. Like just, just fucking be bad for a minute. Just like make shit and kind of suck and learn from it. And like over years, it took me, well, I've been making so things since I was what in sixth grade. Like it took me till I was 30, whatever 29 to make a piece where I was like, Oh, that, that is kind of good.
pjasper: Well.
pjasper: Yeah, so Eric, part of that, I think, is because so many woodworkers are overachievers in their non -woodworking life, so they expect the same from their woodworking life, even though they're just getting into it.
erockindahaus2nit: sure sure oh that's the sweetest feeling isn't it oh but it's but it's but it's so rare too it's so rare and you have to accept that
pjasper: They expect huge advancements, huge gains, and they're saying, how can I like optimize every step? then They're not giving themselves the luxury of time. But anyway, that's that's my answer. you know When I look at something and I know it's right, ah, what a feeling! Oh, it feels so good.
Mary: Yep.
pjasper: It gives you chills, right? You just know what's right. You know it in your gut. It is, but you know it.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: and we And when you look at something like Keith and I did those whiskey cabinets and the door sucked. We thought they were great. We put them on the on the cabinet and we hated them. You just know it. You see it and you fucking viscerally hate it. And there's no changing the narrative at that point. So anyway, you just know through repetition.
erockindahaus2nit: okay Can I ask a question that's maybe semi -related, but I'm curious.
pjasper: Yes.
erockindahaus2nit: like how Because in those moments, and we've all had those moments, like, man, I fucking nailed that.
pjasper: Mm hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: like how How do you, because one of the things that maybe comes along with perfectionism is like that negative self -talk.
pjasper: okay
erockindahaus2nit: So how do you give yourself that moment of recognizing that you achieved and accomplished well without feeling narcissistic or self -congratulatory?
pjasper: Okay.
pjasper: Mary, you answer this.
Mary: Ooh, I don't know. I... Man.
erockindahaus2nit: that was cruel paul
pjasper: i Because i don't I don't feel that way. When I feel like excited, i'm I'm like lit on fire.
Mary: Well, that's what I was gonna say.
pjasper: I have chills. I'm dancing around. I'm so excited. So I don't have an answer for that, but I bet Mary might.
erockindahaus2nit: i
Mary: well That's what I was gonna say. like I don't really like soak it in that way. It's just mostly me being like, I really gotta to build this thing now. like I need to like get this done. I'm just like so excited to move on and like get to actual...
erockindahaus2nit: That was cruel, Paul.
Mary: Well, for me, that usually happens in design phase. So it's like, I really...
pjasper: But Mary.
erockindahaus2nit: but then when you build the thing, it's not like that.
Mary: Yeah?
pjasper: Mary, you're you're depriving yourself, you're depriving yourself that moment of like euphoria that you fucking nailed it.
Mary: No, it is.
erockindahaus2nit: well Well, I'll push back on that Paul and Mary, I'm gonna speak for you, but I want you to actually tell me to fuck off if I'm not right.
pjasper: Like that's what keeps us going.
erockindahaus2nit: It sounds to me like what you're saying is the that euphoria translates into momentum to actually build the thing.
Mary: Yes.
pjasper: It does.
Mary: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, and that's huge.
Mary: So for me, it's, it's kind of like, uh, almost like planning for the euphoria moment towards the end.
pjasper: Oh, I see, I see, I see, I see.
Mary: Like, I know that I'm going to love this when it's done. Cause I'm so excited about it now.
pjasper: nice I see see
Mary: It's only going to keep building while I'm building it. And that like, when I see it come together, that's also like when I experienced that kind of feeling.
erockindahaus2nit: So the the reason I asked this question is because I again I feel like a lot of people who struggle with perfectionism and negative self -talk are afraid to give themselves the credit to like to achieve to do something right. but from what both you just said and if i'm wrong again tell me to fuck off but i would agree with this and this is why i think this is what you're saying maybe this is a bias is when that happens it's not like a pat on the back like look how amazing i am i fucking crushed it it's it's the elation that the thing exists like it's other than the self and that that i think it is an important distinction because if
Mary: Yeah, yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: if the people who are so steeped in negative self -talk can't get beyond the idea of like, well, it's not good enough and can let that go and be elated that the thing just happens to to be in this world now, like that, maybe that's a way around that negative self -talk, maybe.
pjasper: Okay, that that's that's one side of it. But the the other side, Eric, is the feeling like, I did it.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, no no no, no, no, don't get me wrong.
pjasper: i
erockindahaus2nit: Congratulate yourself because you fucking crushed it.
pjasper: like No, no, no. and it's not like It's not like I'm awesome or anything.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: It's not like I'm like, oh, i pat myself at the back. But it's like I was riddled with with concern and worry about how it would come out.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: Could I figure it out? Could I do this?
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: Could I crack this nut?
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And you did it. And it feels so fucking good that you did it.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
Mary: Mm
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah. yeah
pjasper: and And then, then the next day, like that sustains me through the night.
Mary: hmm.
pjasper: I feel so fantastic.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: I was able to pull it off because I didn't know if I'd be able to.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah. Yeah.
pjasper: Honestly, the next day I come in, I see that thing and I'm like, wow, it exists.
Mary: I would.
pjasper: It exists. Yes.
Mary: I would also say like the um they like amount of euphoria, for at least for me personally, ah is higher for how much I have struggled through previously to get to that point.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: Mmm.
Mary: of you know like I've waited through all these like problem areas and stressful moments of just like thinking I couldn't handle it and when you actually get past that.
pjasper: Good, Mary.
Mary: And I think that's actually what is the most satisfying part for me, if like I've overcome this. but
erockindahaus2nit: And we've touched on kind of chasing the dragon in the past and like that's like that's a major component of like as you make more objects. But I would agree with that on the whole. um I think to the question earlier about like attempting things that you've never done before and you're unsure if you could do it well, the unknowing, the not knowing and attempting and succeeding, that's where the elation comes in for me. It's the doing of the thing that you're like, holy shit, I have no idea how I'm going to pull this off. And then you figure out how to do it and it works.
erockindahaus2nit: That's where the elation comes in.
pjasper: Yes.
erockindahaus2nit: So don't don't be afraid of the things that you don't know how to do. Because not only are those the moments where you learn the most, but those are the moments where you look back on and you go like, holy shit, was that a leap forward?
pjasper: Oh, I'm so... I'm just getting excited just thinking about this conversation.
erockindahaus2nit: I know! So am I!
Mary: Hahahahaha!
pjasper: Like, I don't want to go in the shop. Fuck the podcast. Let's hit stop.
erockindahaus2nit: yeah That's a t -shirt right there.
pjasper: All right. So we're going to run long. I can tell you right 48 minutes and we haven't even gotten to like finishing a project or whatever. So notice, notice if you're, if you, if you don't like long podcasts, fucking well deal with it. Uh, cause this is a great topic. Okay.
erockindahaus2nit: If you don't like long podcasts, fucking well.
pjasper: Deal with it. All right. So that was the the most ah common question. How do you draw the line? How is it good enough? I think we've we've done our best to address our three points of view. um There might be others, but we've done our best. Back to the process. So starting project, executing project, finishing projects. Do you ever stall out completely and the project stays unfinished? Or do you just brute force it?
Mary: I brute force it. I can't leave projects unfinished. It kills me to leave things unfinished. I know that's not always the case. Like I was talking to Sean about this, Sean Kirsch, because he loves to leave projects unfinished, not all the time. um But I think it's just a a mental thing for me that I have to finish this before I can move on, even if I am sick of it it or I'm always sick of it at that point, to be honest, I just want to see it done. So that's yeah, that's my take.
pjasper: Eric?
erockindahaus2nit: I would agree the majority of the time with that. Like almost always I finish a project, but there are times where I have an idea and I start down a road and pretty early on I realized that it's not working. And then I just abandoned course. And that's like, I think that's fine. Sometimes you just like have an idea and you're like, I want to see if it's going to work. And if it doesn't cool, no harm, no foul. Uh, but if I get like 80 to 90 % done with a project, like I'm not not finishing it. Like, but at that point, maybe it's the sunk cost fallacy, but like, I'm not gonna just like slap a coat of, even if it's, it sucks, like just throw a fucking throw some shellac on it in 20 minutes and call it a goddamn day.
Mary: Yeah, I was gonna say like that it's again that kind of chasing the dragon can be dangerous because you're at a point in your project where you are maybe tired of it or like, you know,
pjasper: Okay.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: that high is getting low and you keep wanting to get back to that feeling of euphoria.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: So you started a new project. I think that's dangerous, at least for me it is, ah because I feel like I would just abandon all the work that I've done and that I was so proud of before, but just time has passed.
pjasper: Hmm. Hmm.
Mary: So I think that that's what makes it dangerous for me of like, oh, I will i want i need that drug again of like, you know, intense happiness. So yeah.
pjasper: It is a drug.
erockindahaus2nit: 100%.
pjasper: I swear it is. For me, I always finish projects, but Eric, like you, occasionally I can see that this is a non -starter early on.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And i I rarely make it halfway because I would have seen it wasn't going to work earlier. So I rarely make it even to halfway and then abandon it. All right, next question. Have you ever caught yourself saying it's good enough in a project just to get it done?
erockindahaus2nit: Yep. Entirely about context, but yes.
pjasper: Okay, context. Eric, that's a great point. What are these contexts you refer to?
erockindahaus2nit: Well, they're they're different like it to put it in another way, there are different standards, right? So if I'm making a piece of standalone furniture for a gallery, it has to hit one standard. If I'm making a piece for a client, it's probably around that same standard in fairness uh if i'm making a piece for myself probably a different standard like there are times where it just has to be done and like i need a thing if i'm making shop furniture that's a different standard if i'm doing if i'm doing built -in furniture like built -in cabinetry that's a different standard they're not they're not necessarily quality standards but
pjasper: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: They're like, what's an eighth inch gap in furniture? That's a fucking mile in framing. That's the sheetrock eyes will get it. Like, you know, who gives a shit? So I think it's about understanding the context of where your work is going to live.
pjasper: Eric, can I say again, fuck you, you're one of the few people who has worked across all these different mediums and can actually speak to like timber framing, like rough framing and dry rollll and drywall and like fine furniture. Like so honestly, I've seen you operate at all these different scales and that really does calibrate in essence, like your your idea of what's acceptable at each of these.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, yeah. ah
pjasper: And you know you're one of the few people who actually I've seen operate at the full spectrum from rough, rough carpentry all the way to the finest gallery furniture. So I think you're a good person to take that question.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, I. I appreciate that, but I also think it's more intuitive than than just the experience. like But listen, both of you guys have master's degrees. One of you guys has a PhD, right?
Mary: Dr.
erockindahaus2nit: that The look that he just gave me, by the way.
Mary: Jasper?
pjasper: No, because I don't have a master degree. You don't get a master degree.
erockindahaus2nit: You don't have a master's?
pjasper: just No, you just go...
erockindahaus2nit: You just went from bachelor's to PhD?
pjasper: Yeah, that's how it goes. so
erockindahaus2nit: Let's to show you how ignorant I am. ah so the My point is this, like you both know how to talk to groups that are highly educated. If you walked into a third grade classroom and had to explain what you did, you wouldn't dive into the details. you would Speak at a different level right and and I think that's the kind of and Context you need to have when you're approaching your work is where is this gonna live?
pjasper: True. True.
erockindahaus2nit: Who's going to be? um critical of this piece and You know like if it's a built -in cabinet and it's gonna live inside a wall for the next 40 years Like nobody's gonna see the back of this plywood. So it doesn't fucking matter I don't need to veneer it with like curly Babinga.
pjasper: Yeah, good point.
pjasper: And and speaking ah speaking of which, all the furniture you love in your ah modern you know Museum of Fine Art and whatever,
erockindahaus2nit: I
pjasper: All the non -show surfaces were treated like non -show surfaces.
erockindahaus2nit: Yep.
pjasper: They are not perfect by any means. That is a more modern invention where it's perfect on every surface to implicate how serious of a craftsperson you are. Oh, I'm super serious. Everything's going to be perfect, even on the inside, even on the parts no one sees. Now that's fine if that's how you want to spend your time. But historically, people were just trying to make a living for their family. They're not going to spend time on non -show services. OK, finally, what about this is the last part of about the process. So you finished it.
pjasper: We talked about, I think most of us brute force it or abandon it early was our answer. The final question is, what about selling or promoting or showing the project?
erockindahaus2nit: Thank
pjasper: Does perfectionism, Mary, how about you take this one? Does perfectionism impact your wanting to tell people about the projects you've made?
Mary: Uh, can you rephrase that question?
pjasper: does does Well, if you feel as though it's not perfect, your perfectionism is like, ah it's not quite right.
Mary: I'm not sure I understand.
erockindahaus2nit: you.
Mary: Uh huh.
pjasper: i don't you know This is wrong and that's wrong and this is this didn't work out.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: Does that impact your wanting to tell people about the project, to feature it on your social media? Or to or to sell it?
Mary: Uh, okay. So. Um, if I'm doing a commission, I would not tell them because normally it like if it's commission, then I will have put in the work to make it to the standard in which I set for myself.
pjasper: Correct.
Mary: Uh, I think that people really like seeing mistakes on social media.
pjasper: Yeah.
Mary: That's why everyone was always like.
erockindahaus2nit: Thank you.
Mary: Posting those videos of here's where I messed up and everyone always comments. Oh, I really appreciated you posting your mistakes or whatever um So people really like that. I don't do that per se because I don't care to I don't
pjasper: Why? Why?
Mary: know really I I mean, I think that there's just like a I only like to present finished things which I know is not a good thing for social media, but for my own personal like standard, I guess that's what I, it absolutely says something.
pjasper: does that say does that Does that say something about?
Mary: Oh yeah, it absolutely says something about me.
pjasper: about
Mary: Like I want to see myself like in that in that light. And that's why I don't post that much. Well, in general, I don't post that much, but yeah, absolutely. I think that says something about who I am and how I want to be seen both from outside perspective and from my own perspective.
pjasper: Mary, I'm not singling you out. I think all of us are like that.
Mary: ah No, we aret we all know this about me.
pjasper: No, no, no, no, like, yeah, but no, seriously, all of us are like that. We wanna show our finest edge, we wanna show our best pieces.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: ah And no, so I'm not singling you out, definitely.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
Mary: I think I'm, yeah, I think I'm okay saying this because I have such an awareness of how I am not perfect and just like so much intense internal struggle of it not being good enough.
pjasper: i
pjasper: Mm -hmm.
Mary: And I think that keeps me in check.
pjasper: Go ahead, Eric.
erockindahaus2nit: ah I'll say two things. Number one, the most critical people of your work will always be woodworkers who deal with perfectionism and self -doubt, always, every single time. Now, the the model of doing like furniture shows or craft shows is dying out. It's not, um you know, as prevalent as it was even 10 years ago. But, you know, the the worst thing to see, and i listen, and I did this early on too, because you want to learn, a lot of people have good intention, it but the worst thing to see is when somebody walks up to your piece and they do the drop,
erockindahaus2nit: You know, they drop down, they squat down, and they start, and you're like, get the fuck out of my booth, guy.
Mary: yeah yep
pjasper: yeah
erockindahaus2nit: Like, what are you doing? It's the fucking worst. But, but, to give you a story about an imperfect object and how it played out in front of a real customer, I was doing a furniture show, I don't know, 2014 maybe. This was kind of right after I got out of school, and I was starting to design my own objects because I didn't have teachers around.
Mary: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: And I was terrible at design.
Mary: Yep.
erockindahaus2nit: I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.
pjasper: Ha ha ha!
erockindahaus2nit: So I made a maple nightstand and it was so ugly. Like it just, I had no idea what, there was like stringing in it, but like the top was relieved in a weird way. And as I was making this, you know, there was a drawer in the front and I mortised the legs and I accidentally mortised the interior portion of the legs where the drawer was gonna be. And so I thought, okay, how am I gonna fix this? I wasn't gonna patch it with maple because you're gonna see that glue seam and you know it's gonna look like a mistake and I happen to have some Purple Heart lying around because of course when you're you know like a second year woodworker you like just buy Purple Heart for no fucking reason.
Mary: I was gonna say.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, no, there was that I bought it like wood craft and you just fucking have it.
Mary: Of course.
erockindahaus2nit: so So what I did was I filled the mortise hole with Purple Heart. ah And so I have this piece at the show and this old guy comes over and he does the squat and he's looking at the table and he takes the drawer out and he sees these two Purple Heart fills inside and he pauses and he turns over his shoulder and he goes, hey honey, come here, come look at this. And he just points at it and he goes, you see this? This is true craftsmanship. Nobody would ever, nobody would, nobody would ever see this.
pjasper: a
Mary: Oh no!
erockindahaus2nit: But he, it he inlaid the interior of these legs. That's a craftsman. And he had no idea that I fucked it up. So like, that's what it, to him, that piece was perfect. You know?
pjasper: Great story. Eric, I have something similar. So I was cutting the top off a really high -end cannabis box, okay?
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: And I'm ready to saw the top off. Right? I put it on against the fence wrong.
erockindahaus2nit: Oh, no.
pjasper: Like I, instead of the bottom, instead of the bottom against the fence to to cut the top off at a certain distance, I put the top against the fence.
erockindahaus2nit: Oh, no.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
Mary: put the top that's the that's the worst when you go halfway through a cut and you realize
pjasper: Oh, and I went halfway through the cut and I'm like, and I'm like, now what motherfucker?
erockindahaus2nit: so
erockindahaus2nit: oh Uh -huh.
pjasper: Oh,
erockindahaus2nit: Uh -huh.
pjasper: Okay? And and i'm like what do I like, to my stomach.
erockindahaus2nit: Oh, I feel that knot in my stomach right now.
pjasper: I wanted to barf, okay? And I sat there. I didn't freak out. I didn't throw anything.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: I'm not that i'm not that kind of guy. I just put my hand on my chinny chin chin.
Mary: it's always
erockindahaus2nit: Stroke the whiskers.
pjasper: And I thought, what can I do? And I decided to make that cut and inlaid a brass element with some like ebony accents all the way around the box.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: And it looked fucking mint after I was done.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: But like these things happen.
Mary: It's
pjasper: You make errors and you like pivot into design elements or you try to find clever, like mistakes are gonna happen no matter who you are, how many years of experience.
erockindahaus2nit: yeah Yeah.
Mary: always there!
pjasper: Can you pivot and can you recover?
erockindahaus2nit: And so to the question at hand is when you sold that box, it was a commission. Yeah.
pjasper: It was a, it was a cannabis box commission.
erockindahaus2nit: If I remember correctly. like Yeah.
pjasper: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah. Yeah. So did you tell the client that you fucked up or did you just say like, this was a design choice I made.
pjasper: He was a really close friend of mine and a very good woodworker named Sam.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And so I told him.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And he loved it because I knew he'd love it because he would understand the moment.
erockindahaus2nit: Yes, yes.
pjasper: I was like, Sam, I put it on the table saw backwards.
Mary: but
pjasper: and oh And then I thought, wow, that looks really good. He's like, oh, man, this is fucking the best. I love it. It looks even better.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And he's right.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: It did. It actually added to the piece. And I wouldn't have done that had I not made a mistake. So you know every mistake by the way i had another one of those today oh my god i just realized i have powder post beetles and a bunch of my wood out back they're chewing holes in all my curly maple oh yeah i have two gigantic slabs like three feet wide 12 feet long two or three inches thick of curly maple through the whole like curly through the whole slab right it's
erockindahaus2nit: Oh no.
Mary: Oh no!
erockindahaus2nit: Oh no.
erockindahaus2nit: Oh.
Mary: Oh, that sucks.
Mary: Are there any, is there any wood, other wood around there?
pjasper: Yeah, there is, but they don't seem to want it. They only want the maple.
Mary: Okay.
pjasper: They didn't touch the walnut, they didn't touch the oak, whatever.
erockindahaus2nit: Interesting.
pjasper: Okay, so I just realized that today, there's holes all through it. My wife comes out to the shop, she sees me upset, and she goes, hey, maybe you can make that a design element. And I'm like, you are a fucking awesome best wife ever.
erockindahaus2nit: Mmm.
pjasper: She goes, why don't you fill that with like, copper, epoxy, like put copper in the holes and the like little copper polka dots and the otherwise like Chatoian grain. And she's right. Like I'm going to try to pivot this, this massive problem into a design element because it doesn't have to be a problem.
erockindahaus2nit: Well, so that's that's a really excellent example of like taking the path that's in front of you.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: but and And even when you sell that to a client, you like that's a good story.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: But there's, again, a key differentiation there to be made between like you didn't make that mistake, that was a thing that happened in nature, so you can sell that story.
pjasper: Hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: But when you fuck it up,
pjasper: That's a good point.
erockindahaus2nit: How then are you going to sell that?
pjasper: Yep.
erockindahaus2nit: like Is it a thing that's OK to say? Because the thing that is universal in woodworking, we've all done it. And we do it more when we're younger in the journey, less as we as we grow. But we owe it people. Oh, that's a lovely piece. Yeah, but I fucked this up.
pjasper: Oh, okay.
erockindahaus2nit: Everybody does it. Everybody does it.
pjasper: That way. Wait, Eric, put a pin in that. That's one of my questions for the lightning round, which is next.
erockindahaus2nit: OK. All right. All right.
pjasper: Okay. I'll ask that question in the lightning round. Okay.
erockindahaus2nit: OK.
pjasper: All right. The last part we have before we could pivot to the lightning round is, uh, Mary, why don't you take this question about selling or promoting? Does the object being say perfect or imperfect, let's say you didn't, you didn't have a price yet. It wasn't a commission. Does it's perfection, the level of perfection, does that change its price?
Mary: Uh, yes, because in my mind, the level of perfection is directly tied to the design of the piece. It's not like the finish or the craftsmanship, which also has a standard, but for me, it's more related to the design of the actual piece because I'm a designer first.
erockindahaus2nit: That's interesting.
pjasper: Okay, so perfectionism to you is in the design, not that not as much the execution.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: I know, I'm not saying you don't care about the execution.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: I know you have a high level, but to you design is really the crux.
Mary: Yes.
pjasper: And I think Eric for, I think you and I, a lot ah and a lot of woodworkers, the execution, the tight joints, the perfect finish, right?
erockindahaus2nit: Sure, sure.
pjasper: That's the, right?
erockindahaus2nit: Well, that's interesting to me. Cause like, I know your education is in design and my education is in craft.
Mary: Yeah, exactly.
erockindahaus2nit: So it's interesting that we have like those opposite value, uh, uh, scales.
Mary: yeah Yeah, but it makes sense.
pjasper: Alright.
Mary: I mean, that's where you kind of consider your self worth almost.
erockindahaus2nit: Sure. I, uh, I don't know that the, the. Closer to perfect a thing is whether that determines its price point Like I usually set the price point before I make the object and then I just try to make it as perfect as I can um But if I if I fuck it up severely then maybe it'll have a negative impact on the price point
pjasper: All right, so that, I feel like we've concluded about does it change the price point?
Mary: Wait, Paul, you didn't answer.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: I don't think so, not much. I have an idea of a price point from the early stages and whether the perfect the finish is perfect and the joints are perfect or are just slightly imperfect, like that doesn't really shift it. I think, Mary, it's more about the function, the piece itself as a whole. These tiny little details that we we stress over about perfection don't really change the price point for me. It is what it is and I do my best on every piece. um Yeah, it is what it is. Okay, so I think we have touched on starting projects, executing projects, finishing projects, and selling projects, right? um The last, what I would like to end on before we go to a lightning round, because there's a few questions we got that don't fit in any of those bins, is what is your, like, if you could summarize, if you could give one to two sentences, like,
pjasper: to the listeners, like how do you think about perfectionism? How do you navigate it? How do you control it from controlling you? What summary would you give to the listeners?
erockindahaus2nit: God damn, that's a hard question.
Mary: but so Those are a lot of questions to put into one or two sentences.
erockindahaus2nit: Can you define perfection? No.
pjasper: yeah
Mary: Oh my goodness.
pjasper: I'll go first while you two think, okay?
erockindahaus2nit: Okay. All right. Okay.
pjasper: For me, personally, perfectionism has not become a hindrance because I'm not wired like that. I'm not a perfectionistic person, okay? So for me, perfectionism has has turned up the volume on my trying to be better, trying to get things better, more of the positives. And when I find it crosses that line into negativity, i I can recognize it and I can dial it back and say, you know what, humans are imperfect and we're still beautiful. And so is furniture that has these quote unquote imperfections. Cut it out.
pjasper: and just make a thing and make people happy. i just I can just tell what I'm doing it and I just throttle myself back. So I know that's kind of a cop out. <unk>t That's not like a great solution for people who think perfectionistically, but I'm not one of those people. So I'm not really qualified to offer you a solution.
Mary: Yeah, my answer is kind of, uh, I mean, it's a little bit of the opposite of which I am more naturally a perfectionist. So for me, it's very much, and I use perfectionism as a way to set goals and standards for myself. But, um, I would say that the majority of the time it's always just keeping myself in check and constantly reminding myself about that line of perfectionism and is it worth the stress and fatigue and procrastination that you're putting yourself through. So yeah, for me, i I do the opposite. I kind of have to always be checking myself and making sure that it's not the negative side is not hindering me.
pjasper: So you you you basically keep tabs on yourself. You check yourself regularly to make sure you haven't crossed the line into negativity.
Mary: Yeah, i like ah it's a question I have to ask myself. like Is this worth it?
pjasper: Okay, okay.
Mary: Also, it's a mental thing too. I'll find myself spiraling and like getting into these like mental, stressful states.
pjasper: Mary, Mary, the fact that you're self -insightful and self -aware enough to see when you cross the line into ah what might be negative is a huge accomplishment. All of us grow in our self -insight and self -actualization, right, as we are in our 20s and 30s and 40s, some of us in our 40s, Mary, not you. Us older folks, so I think that's great. I think that's great.
erockindahaus2nit: Paul, can you repeat the question just because I want to make sure I answer the actual question?
pjasper: Yes. What, like if you were to offer the listeners a solution or something they could do to help themselves cope with their perfectionistic tendencies, like what would it be?
erockindahaus2nit: OK. OK. OK. So as I was sitting with that, I want to point out that when I was younger, I struggled with ah performance anxiety a lot, right? Like I played sports growing up, I was in the, ah you know, music all my life, theater to an extent, and I was always terrified of getting it wrong, like severely terrified of getting it wrong. I remember I was a running back, I was a cornerback, and I always, before every snap, I always was mentally walking through the play for fear that I was gonna fuck the play up.
erockindahaus2nit: So, fuck you with your performance enhancers in the group chat out here.
Mary: Hahahaha!
erockindahaus2nit: Trying to make a goddamn point. um and And I think that is similar to you know people in the woodworking space. and In music, like I thought music was perfect. It sounded like the recording of the song until you start going to concerts and hearing live music and realizing that it sounds nothing like the record. Because the record is sterile.
pjasper: Mm -hmm.
erockindahaus2nit: The record is an idea and it's highly produced. But the music that's being created in the moment is a little bit sloppy like there's the notes a little bit flat the singer doesn't quite hit it quite right the guitarist fucks up a lick and i think similarly in the woodworking space when you exist in a world where you are alone in your garage or your barn or your shop wherever the fuck it is and all you ever see are the things online that are highly curated and perfect that's like never hearing live music
pjasper: Mm.
erockindahaus2nit: And the solution to me was to go be amongst art that is being created in the moment and seeing how fucking sloppy it is, because the overall composition might be perfect.
pjasper: Wow.
erockindahaus2nit: But the details are just like something's a little like this one's just a little quite off to the left there. Like that one's not quite right. And being around other woodworkers who are more experienced than you or going through the process simultaneously. and seeing how they fuck it up and then find the resolution in that and get to the end of the song to get the audience to to cheer at the end of the thing. like That is the creative process.
pjasper: All right, so Eric, you're basically ah saying increase or sort of grow your awareness and your perspective of what it's like out there with other people, with other makers, with other artists and stopping so hard on yourself.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah. Um, yes. I'm saying that, um, when you assume that everybody else is perfect and you are the one who is different, it's impossible to overcome that. And once you get out and see other people's creative processes and realize that nobody is perfect, then that at least in my experience helps me to accept my imperfections and that we're all just trying to make shit the best we can.
pjasper: Okay.
pjasper: I love it. Thank you. Great answer. So obviously our longest episode ever again. I don't how we keep doing this.
erockindahaus2nit: It's perfect, man. I don't know what you're talking about.
pjasper: You long -witted motherfuckers. Okay, so we were gonna do a lightning round because there's 15 questions we got that don't fit in any of these bins and they're really good. Let's feature one or two and we'll do the rest in the after show.
erockindahaus2nit: let's it's It's a lightning round. Let's do three, and then we'll do the other 12 in the after show.
pjasper: All right, let's do three. All right, fine.
erockindahaus2nit: Alright.
pjasper: We'll do a long episode and we'll do the rest in the after show. If you wanna hear the after show, all you have to do is give us some support on Patreon. All right, first question of the lightning round. And why lightning round? What we mean is not long fucking answers.
erockindahaus2nit: not Not what I just did. Fucking keep it brief.
pjasper: ah Okay, no, no, that was a summary. You're allowed to do that for a summary statement. A 10 ,000 foot summary, yeah, that was good. Okay, are you ready? Lightning round, give shorter answers, ready?
Mary: yeah
Mary: Okay.
pjasper: Why, when we build something, and we show someone that thing, do we go straight to pointing out the motherfucking imperfections?
erockindahaus2nit: This motherfucker wants us to keep it brief and opens with a why question.
Mary: Why?
Mary: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say like yes or no.
erockindahaus2nit: Why? Not yes or no, why? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because we are insecure in our knowledge of the craft, I think, and we therefore want to qualify the work that we've done rather than presenting it as ah as a whole. We're more afraid of the people discovering the mistakes than we are of the mistakes themselves.
pjasper: Yeah.
Mary: Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. You wanna acknowledge it first before they actually acknowledge it.
pjasper: Yeah. And I think all three of us have gone through that phase and we all learned, don't fucking do that stuff.
erockindahaus2nit: Absolutely. Don't do it.
pjasper: Whoever's listening to this, do not do that.
erockindahaus2nit: And if the person looking at the piece calls you out on a mistake, tell them to get the fuck out of your house.
pjasper: The person receiving that piece in their eyes, it's literally amazing.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: Don't convince them otherwise, okay?
erockindahaus2nit: Yep. That's a great way to phrase it.
pjasper: I know there's imperfections in your eyes. To them, it is amazing. Let them have their moment with your amazing piece. Don't ruin it.
erockindahaus2nit: Ooh, don't make it about you. God damn, that's a, that's a fuck it to them.
pjasper: Yeah. it
erockindahaus2nit: It's amazing. Don't convince them otherwise. That's such a fucking good way to sum that up.
pjasper: let them have the moment with the piece. I mean, Eric, you can, and mary like, I've seen people go to tears over a piece, literally cry, or have hands shaking over a piece.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: I will. All right. I, i
pjasper: Don't fuck it up with your little perfectionist, oh, this dovetails a little off, or...
erockindahaus2nit: I know, I know we're supposed to keep this brief. I will make this the shortest story I've ever told on this podcast. I made the ugliest table that I've ever made in my life early on in my career.
Mary: oh my god
Mary: Oh yeah!
erockindahaus2nit: It was a reproduction of a pottery barn piece and it was so fucking ugly.
Mary: Hahaha!
erockindahaus2nit: It was made of oak. She wanted it to look like this thing out of a catalog, which was whitewashed and reclaimed. So I beat it to shit with a scrub plane and chains and hammers and I painted it white and sanded it back.
pjasper: hahaha
erockindahaus2nit: And I was so nervous to give it to her because it was literally to this day, the ugliest thing I've ever made in my life.
Mary: Hahaha!
erockindahaus2nit: And I wrapped it up and I delivered it. And I unwrapped it in her kitchen and she literally started crying. And I thought, holy shit, I fucked up bad. And she goes, this is perfect. And I was like, oh, you and I have very different definitions of perfects ma 'am.
Mary: Like we said, design is subjective.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, let them have their moment.
pjasper: Yeah. Yeah. Eric, have you seen modern art? Design is subjective. Okay. Second lightning round question. Good. You did pretty well. That was only a few minutes each.
Mary: Paul, you're the one who spoke the majority!
pjasper: Our deadline.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, you took the longest!
pjasper: Shit.
Mary: Don't give a shit!
pjasper: Shit. It's true. Number two. Are deadlines a cure for perfectionism? Go.
erockindahaus2nit: No, no, no, not at all.
Mary: A cure? No.
erockindahaus2nit: You still, like, you're still, you're just gonna be more anxious about fucking it up in a shorter period of time.
Mary: Yeah, i mean there I mean, there's like nuance to it in which they can help you just kind of get over it, but I don't think if we're doing blanket statements, no.
pjasper: All right.
pjasper: Okay, I agree with you. Okay, that was an easy one. Okay, the third one's a technical one. All right, I tried to mix it up from philosophical to technical. How smooth is smooth enough? Can you really tell the difference between 2220 grit and 320 grit?
erockindahaus2nit: Oh, thanks.
pjasper: How about 320 and 420? Will your client on a commission know the difference? Are you cheating the commission customer if you purposely don't go as high as you can?
erockindahaus2nit: First of all, so hard not to make a sex joke there. Secondly, ah if if we're talking again about smoothness, it's about standards. In the cabinetry world, you never stand above 180. in the fine furniture world, you typically sand around 220. In the stone world, you go upwards of 1000 to 2000. So how smooth is smooth enough? It's entirely dependent on the material you're working in. And would typically if you're applying a film building finish, some people say over 220 or 320. I would say like, ah keep it to 220. It's fine. Like stop, stop. It's fucking done. Just get it done.
pjasper: Mary?
Mary: Yeah, I would say the same thing. I finish every i think finished mostly to like 180 to 220.
pjasper: Well, I finished everything to whatever the fuck I want because shellac sitting on top of it, right?
erockindahaus2nit: exactly Yeah.
Mary: Hmm.
pjasper: So I'm not, you know, the surface you're touching is the shellac.
Mary: but
pjasper: So I'm not sure, like the wood underneath, it does have an effect on the shetoyants, the level of shetoyants.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: Cause if it reflects light really well, you get high shetoyants.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah.
pjasper: And if it's really abraded and scuffed, it does not. So you want to go at least to 220, 320 to get that nice shetoyants on figured woods. I'm speaking figured woods only. But after that, shellac's on top. And so I'll give you all a super secret tip. If you use shellac after your final coat and it's not quite buttery smooth and you're like, ah, little nibs and whatever.
erockindahaus2nit: Wax a bitch.
pjasper: No.
Mary: Or brown paper?
pjasper: No. If you hit it with like 3 ,000 or 5 ,000 or 7 ,000 grit automotive sandpaper, it feels red ridiculously glass smooth and it does not affect the glass.
Mary: ah
erockindahaus2nit: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
pjasper: It does not affect the gloss at all. It just changes how your fingers feel because apparently your fingertips can detect like one nanometer Yeah, like one nanometer of distance.
erockindahaus2nit: Like 10 ,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's super, super small.
pjasper: It's incredible So ah at the very end of project if it's not quite smooth I just hit with 5 ,000 grit sandpaper just vary by hand and it's buttery smooth.
erockindahaus2nit: yeah but that's it that's a differentiation between the wood and the finish because finishing is a entirely different art it's a black magic so something to bear in mind for the wood itself
pjasper: So Yeah Correct correct It's.
erockindahaus2nit: Listen, just as a general rule of thumb for somebody who's crippling within that question, 180 to 220, maybe 320 under some circumstances, that's all you need.
pjasper: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
pjasper: I agree completely. All right. There are 10 more of these perfectionism questions that we're at an hour 20.
erockindahaus2nit: Woo!
pjasper: Oh my God. You all.
erockindahaus2nit: We crushed it, nailed it. I'm not even drunk, what are we doing?
pjasper: All
Mary: It's a failure of an episode now!
erockindahaus2nit: Honestly, like, it sit there it is. I need another beverage before we hit this after show.
pjasper: Okay, we're going to handle the other 12 questions and some of them on like, I'll just give you an example of what we're going to answer in the after show. ah Do your views of perfectionism evolve over time?
erockindahaus2nit: Oh, that's a good one.
Mary: That is a good one, yeah.
erockindahaus2nit: All right, we're gonna end it there.
pjasper: All right, well if you want to tune in to the after show ah Just join our patreon and we'll see you then. Thanks everyone. I hope this we hope this episode was super interesting and applicable Mary Go ahead All
erockindahaus2nit: Thanks, France.
Mary: Yeah, also if you have questions like these and you want us to answer them, please submit them to the Patreon or Instagram.
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, the Instagram page.
pjasper: right, I Think we'll ask more ah in upcoming shows about what you what things you're thinking about because that led to an excellent episode y 'all
erockindahaus2nit: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
pjasper: All right, hope you enjoyed it, and we'll see you in the after show.
erockindahaus2nit: All right, make good decisions.
pjasper: Bye, everyone.
Mary: Bye!
