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S3, E6 The Career Coven: Networking
59 Plays12 days ago
This week's episode is all about something that many people fear - networking. Bec and Annie reveal how they both feel about networking, and you’ll hear them discuss:
- Is networking essential to success?
- How to plan for networking
- Linkedin…
- Small talk - and whether that’s good networking
- The importance of asking good and open questions
- Active listening as part of networking
Networking and maintaining your professional relationships does not always have to be going to big events - you can tailor it to your own specific relationships. In some cases, it can even be fun activities like cold water swimming. You can make it work for you, so it’s not so daunting.
Fun little extras you’ll get in this week's episode include our tops on how to use Linkedin, as well as learn what gives Annie the ‘professional ick’.
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think!
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to The Career Coven, the podcast for serious careers with unserious chat. I'm Bec, a coach, corporate citizen and recovering perfectionist. And I'm Annie, a workaholic, learning boundaries fairly slowly. Each episode, we unpack career challenges and workplace wisdom through honest conversations, practical tools and a healthy dose of real talk so you can thrive on your own terms. Shall we get into it? Lovely. How are you today, Annie? What's
Health and Wellness Talk
00:00:34
Speaker
been going on? What's been going on today? Well, we exchanged some supplement notes this morning and true to form, my new collagen. I've seen this one. Yep. I went for Ancient and Brave. They don't sponsor us, but they'd be welcome to. Is this the one that's mixed with cacao? no. no this is tasteless. And this is the one that like Davina McCall uses. And I think because I work in menopause and I spend a huge amount of time looking at menopause content, I have literally just started to buy like a load of menopause brands. I bought the Skin and Me. Again, they don't sponsor us. They absolutely can. But I bought the Skin and Me product for older women, which I think is like, yeah, let's go for radiance, firmness, fine lines and dark spots. I think I've got to that age. Yeah.
00:01:25
Speaker
Fantastic. I really appreciated your guidance on women's health supplements. You know, I feel like postpartum, my hormones were all over the place. And i frankly have been quite intellectually lazy about hormones. So it's a whole new world of
Networking Challenges and Insights
00:01:41
Speaker
excitement. Yeah, that's been that's been quite exciting. I decided I could be someone who has a ritual warm drink. That's what I decided this week.
00:01:48
Speaker
Other than coffee, as I told you just before we started recording, I had six shots today and then only realized that when I was feeling awful at six o'clock and was like, I'm going to die. And then I was like, oh, it's because I had so much coffee. So that's going to be a night's sleep for you, I think. Deep night's sleep.
00:02:07
Speaker
i I joined a cult today. What sort of cult? Well, actually didn't join it today. I've been a member for a while now. SoulCycle. I also don't sponsor us. But welcome to.
00:02:19
Speaker
but But welcome to as well. It's a cult that I never thought I would join and a cult where I kind of didn't understand it. And I sort of in my head kind of made fun of everyone who is really into it. And then I there I was happy as a fucking dog clapping around in my spin class today. And I was like, I'm I'm there. I'm in the cult. Yeah.
00:02:38
Speaker
You were clapping. Interesting. Yeah. I can see you clapping, but I couldn't see you clapping on a bike for some reason. I've seen you after boxing, so I know you do get a lot of hype. You get an exercise buzz, but I i thought that was also slightly to do with aggression. you know like I thought it was like the combo of like getting it out and the exercise, whereas, you know, it's SoulCycle as well. It is SoulCycle. I mean, they played Spice Girls today. So like that was it was it was great. Shall we get into today's topic, which is on networking? Yeah, networking. It's not a word I like. I'm going to just start there. It's not not a word that I like and it's not a thing that comes naturally to me, but I'm very much looking forward to talking about it with you. Yeah, I mean, I sort of hate networking is what I've always told myself. And then I think I've been on this sort of pathway of redefining it in my head and and then being like, maybe I've been doing it all along. just in a different way. Yeah, for sure. Let's definitely get into that because that's surely true. Maybe. We'll see. Okay, so what did the experts say? What do we know? Yeah, I think um we both came across an expert called Kelly Hoey. That's what I'm going to say is her name. And she wrote a book called Build Your Dream Network. And I think what was interesting about that book was
00:04:01
Speaker
for me is that she really made networking very deliberate, very strategic and like quite goals-based, which is probably something that I would never naturally do. Like i I would love to be a person And maybe I was when I was a founder and i I had to be more strategic, but I'd love to be a person that prepped for networking properly and was like, there's three people I know are going to be in this room, but want to meet and then like just went and and did it. Like I would aspire to be that person, but um I'm not it.
00:04:37
Speaker
However, she was very strongly pro, you know, making sure that you know what you want, that there are clear goals around your networking. um Something that really resonated with me was that she said you should kind of give before you receive. And I think that's that's something that kind of rings true. But also, she was very clear that if you want to build and maintain a great network, that's going to take work and you need to kind of invest in your network and your relationships, which I think we will probably get into in more depth.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think I'm less so now, but the start of my career, I was like, crushingly introverted and I felt like at networking events or like just places where you come across a lot of people i felt like I had to kind of wear a mask of like wanting to be with people yeah yeah That sounds really harsh, but i you know, i am i am happy as a pig and shit by myself. So yeah being in a room full of strangers feels quite daunting and i really have to G myself up.
00:05:44
Speaker
to go into those but I think that's probably true of a lot of people right for sure I mean definitely true just definitely true for me what's interesting about that from my perception of you is I wouldn't have thought that because you are you are very very personable but I think that that's like such a common misconception with networking is that people who are naturally quite good at it find it easy internally and I definitely do not think That's true. Like I see it in my partner who is actually very, very shy, but he's quite good at networking because he is very strategic, very, like very much plans things and is like very sweet in a personable way, but he finds it very energy draining. And I think... Yeah, I wouldn't have imagined that it was something that you had to gear yourself up for because having seen you at events with lots of people, you're very kind of gregarious and and, you know, it looks like it all comes easily. But I think that is a very, very common thing.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, to be clear, I like socialising with people I like socialising with. I just don't like strangers. Stranger danger, like, cut me real deep. Yeah. It's impacted my ability to socialise. But I am genuinely, whenever I see someone, I am genuinely happy to see. That doesn't feel high effort. But I think it's more just, I am just awful at small talk. Like you run out of the weather, you've run out of everything. And that is my like social anxiety being like, well, what the fuck else are we going to talk about? I yeah got better at it. Are you better at it now? i think yeah
00:07:13
Speaker
No, i've I've got worse at it. I've got worse at it. realized that recently when like I went to a dinner party with people, I guess I did know them, but I didn't know them that well. And definitely still found like, it was kind of like, are we going to make adults friends? You know, and I quite want to make adult friends with with this group of people, but I was still quite nervous. And then one of them asked me just like a really mundane question. And I just honestly told them all of my life trauma. And it was, it was like stunned silence. And you could see Anders was sitting there like, no, honestly, what the fuck just happened? Yeah, it killed, it's killed the friendship. It's killed it. And I know it was that moment. I know it was. And I was like, God, you've got no, got no filter anymore. I just don't know what appropriate small talk is. and So i I think I used to be quite like, oh, do you have any siblings?
00:08:05
Speaker
I don't do that anymore. I just go straight into deep, deep trauma. And if someone doesn't have any, I just move on to the next. It's not that interesting. It's that interesting. mean, I think there's like, when I have sort of observed people who I thought are really good at networking and what they are really good at doing is constantly having a good question to ask. And I think what is kind of interesting, right, doing my coaching course, like coaching is all about asking good questions and listening.
00:08:33
Speaker
but the best questions that you ask as a coach and not ones where you've like preloaded it in your brain and it's when you're like deeply deeply listening and responding so actually I think I've changed my view on that when I was sort of doing more networking I would always preload the next question in my brain but as soon as you start doing that you're actually not listening so I'd say yeah so it's kind of interesting I've sort of moved on from that as as a kind of networking style okay so who else who else did you come across Herminia Ibarra has also come up on this podcast already this season. And her kind of position on this, which I think is a really interesting one, is bridging your current self and your future self through networking. So I suppose it's about like the building your network of who you're aspiring to be. or or the area that you're aspiring to move into. And I think with that lens on it, it feels like much more authentic. um You know, I think even like this year, my my network has increased in like particular functions. Like I have a bigger network of coaches. I have a bigger network of mums. I'm very sure it's going to be really important to me to have a bigger network of like career mums. So I have people to learn from. So actually this totally makes sense to me, that kind of trajectory of yourself and your networking in a more authentic way. I like that. Yeah, I like that too.
00:09:58
Speaker
And that feels like you can, you know, that there's not one size fits all approach to networking, right? That you can find your networking channels that work for you and your style rather than sort of forcing yourself. I think i when you were like, let's do an episode on networking, I was thinking like, That word conjures up in my brain like really big events and being someone who can like work a room. I can't work a room. I just leave. I i will just tottle over to the bar and be like, even if I haven't finished a drink, I'll be I will have another Prosecco. Thank you so much.
00:10:32
Speaker
Well, I just, I just, if I'm in a really big room of people and I know one person, I'll just cling on like a little. Sure. Yeah. Little barnacle at the networking event. Yeah. I'll never leave your side. Or if I don't know anyone, I'll stay for like 15 minutes, talk to no one, and then I'll just leave. Like that's not an effective channel for me. That. Like large, large groups on my own.
00:10:55
Speaker
It's just not. But I think like what's what's nice about Herminia Ibarra's take is that like, that's not what it is for her. Like you can make it your own and it doesn't have to be kind of forced and and fake. Yeah, and i i went to i went to an event, like, it was a few weeks ago, probably. And when I say I went to an event, like, this is the only professional event I've attended during mat leave, but also in an extremely long time. Like, even pre-mat, like, I just, I
Mastering LinkedIn for Networking
00:11:24
Speaker
stopped going to professional events. I was just like, my, don't know, you know, I actually just didn't really see the point. um And this one was really good. It was um for alumni of...
00:11:35
Speaker
women who had won the same award. It was an award I won like literally maybe a decade ago. And um yeah, I was totally disengaged um as ah an ah an alumni and they sent a cool email and it was hosted a cool location and ah and the topic looked really interesting. was on the power of profile. And yeah, I was like, sure, I'll go. and then it turned out a lot to be about networking. And i was like, fuck me. And then and then in the middle like of the agenda, she's like, right now, everyone stand up and talk to the person next next to you for 30 seconds and then connect on LinkedIn and then spin around and go and find someone else and do that.
00:12:14
Speaker
And like ah literally did that like four times. And I was like, oh my, this is literally my worst nightmare. Yeah. but it But it turned out to be fine. And I suppose that's what it's all about, right? Like, I think we fear it a lot more than it is just totally fine.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I think sometimes, you know, we forget that probably everyone in the room feels like that. But I think there's very, very few people who truly enjoy like going to a large gathering of people that they don't really know and talking all night. Like, I just don't know many people that would be like, that's my idea of fun. I do know some, like they do exist, but it's not like a huge number. And I don't think it's any women I know. Like,
00:12:58
Speaker
And yeah so I think you can you can kind of enjoy it a bit more if you remember that actually everyone there sort of maybe feels a bit like you.
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I actually felt like really out of practice yeah going back to one. And actually it felt totally fine. But i also learned, maybe you know this, maybe everyone listening knows this and I don't. But on the LinkedIn app, you have a QR code that makes like finding someone finding you or you finding someone super easy. And I was like,
00:13:31
Speaker
wow this is very advanced from the days of like 2010 when i had a stupid business card which just said student yeah um what like i don't know what i would actually do if someone handed me a business card nowadays i'd be like i'd get the ick i'd get the professional ick
00:13:57
Speaker
But I actually, in fairness, I actually didn't know that about LinkedIn. That is a useful tip. And I consider myself to be quite good at LinkedIn, famously. It's my only channel, as I will tell everyone in my team. It's my only channel.
00:14:12
Speaker
LinkedIn is super interesting for networking, right? Like, and I remember a friend of mine who is like really good at profile building. i was like, look at my LinkedIn, just tell me what I need to do. And she's like, well, you just need to get more followers. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, I need you to have 2000 connections by Easter.
00:14:33
Speaker
And this was in like December and I was like, it was last yeah it was last year. Oh my God. And then I told you that I was doing and you did it in about 10 minutes. So tell us all about how, how successful you are on LinkedIn, Annie. What's, what are the trade secrets to getting those followers to connecting? Like what, what's, s what's your jam? Well, I think that I just have a niche i and I have a small niche, but it's it's a niche that women are interested in, which is women's health. And so I think that it's like, I'm not that consistent. I think I went through a phase of being quite consistent around when we first first launched the podcast. And then it's like fallen off a miserable cliff of just grossness. But I think I can like, when I'm in the mood, I can like rile people up. do you know what i mean? It's like, I can do a post that's a bit like, things aren't good enough.
00:15:29
Speaker
And mostly for women. I don't think I've ever done a things aren't good enough for men, but I'll think about. Never say never. Yeah, I'll think about whether there could be a post that would... I've seen one. It's got lots of backing behind it. It's about how like young boys are the generation behind. The manosphere, yeah. I think it's the boyosphere, the teen boyosphere. Yeah, I've seen that one around. Yeah, yeah and that is something i am I am very worried about and generally very interested in. I don't think it's my brand though. My brand is like, let's talk about the failure of healthcare for women consistently from a different angle, mostly women over 40, but sometimes younger women. And so I think if you repeatedly post about the same thing, but also kind of try and rile people up a bit, like you've got to I just think you've got to say something, haven't you? There's a lot of LinkedIn that's just like, oh, I've got a bike to work this morning.
00:16:25
Speaker
It's like, God, that's like so Facebook 2005 or whatever. That's like early days of when you were just updating your friends in public. Like, not for so embarrassing so embarrassing. Whereas I think you've you've got a LinkedIn's quite noisy nowadays. It's like quite, it's I think it's quite the Wild West. I don't know if it's professional personal anymore.
00:16:44
Speaker
It's like quite an interesting platform from that perspective. But yeah, I think you've got to say something. But i think you've, my view is, my LinkedIn, I've just very consistently only talked about women. And obviously the podcast is aimed at women, but we are male listeners. We are very, very grateful. And we love you very welcome here you're very, very welcome here because everyone should learn.
00:17:05
Speaker
But i it's all quite consistent. Whereas I think if I posted about wildlife, I'd get nothing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I only ever post on LinkedIn when I want something, which. The opposite of what these experts advise. Get first, get after. And you're like, I just request. I make requests.
00:17:32
Speaker
I mean, like, so yeah, you're right. This is very like Adam Grant, give and take, failure 101. I only go on LinkedIn to be like, hey, does anyone know how to answer this question? So maybe I'm just Facebook 2010-ing. I don't know. Maybe I've- That's not Facebook 2010, I don't think. I'm just like, what do you think about this topic? Or quite often just asking questions that we're going talk about on the pod and just getting a sense check on vibes. I don't think I very often, if ever, express a point of view on something other than probably the patriarchy on International Women's Day.
00:18:09
Speaker
i How much we have to go, gender pay gap. Those are the kind of things I'll happily pick a fight about. But Yeah, okay. But let's talk about LinkedIn from a perspective of like you building your own network. Like, do you, are you just like sliding into people's DMs being like, hey, I think you're cool or like...
00:18:28
Speaker
Can you imagine me doing that? but no No, I would say in all seriousness, like I don't, so I am introverted, i am introverted more introverted than people think anyway.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I don't have any time ever. I don't go to any events anymore. i have no interest in that because I just don't want to at the moment. So therefore I only really build ne my network through LinkedIn.
00:18:56
Speaker
And I think there's a couple of things I do. Like, I guess when I took a more structured look at what networking is, and one of the things is like maintaining your connections, the connections that you have.
00:19:09
Speaker
So I think the basis of all of my network, people I have worked with, and then the extended audience of people I have directly worked with.
00:19:20
Speaker
So therefore what I do on LinkedIn, I hope quite well to maintain my network is that i react to, to people's content. Like if they post something, I'll be like,
00:19:33
Speaker
yeah, amazing. This is so great. And I'll share it. Or I will comment on when people comment on my stuff, I will comment back, I will engage with them. So I think I subconsciously maintain my working relationships from people that I no longer work with through LinkedIn, through liking stuff, through commenting. Occasionally I will then, you know, WhatsApp and be like, saw this on LinkedIn, like, that's amazing. Well done. But like, that's what I think I do a lot of in terms of maintaining my network. With growing my network on LinkedIn, a lot of that is, frankly, hiring.
00:20:10
Speaker
Like the only time I really, not the only, that makes me sound a bit calculating, but mostly the only time I would direct message someone is if I want you to work for me.
00:20:20
Speaker
And then I'll send it like, no, no pressure, but would you want to meet me? And you know, guys look it's it's informal, but really it's the first round of a process that they don't know they're in so that's that's one way.
00:20:36
Speaker
i think that I do use LinkedIn DMs again to like, if if someone, you know, there's a good example of like someone I used to work with at Carnal Farrah, which was in consulting. So that was like over 10 years ago.
00:20:48
Speaker
and then someone I used to work with Alva did a big, have just announced like a big healthcare project together. And it is like really amazing. And so I like messaged them together to be like, just so great. Like what you've done, like congrats.
00:21:02
Speaker
And that doesn't take me much time, but it's a way for me to say, like, I'm cheering you on. And, you know, I'm still following, like, what you're doing. And I'm kind of keeping in touch without it being too high effort for me at time when, unfortunately, i don't have, like, that much time.
00:21:20
Speaker
So that's how I... I mean, that will totally make sense. I am not on LinkedIn enough to see the updates that people do to then like and comment them. But I also like go onto LinkedIn and I'm like, God, there's a whole load of absolute drivel here. And and then I close it quite quickly. So maybe I just need to prune I get...
00:21:41
Speaker
Like follow requests. or I don't know what it. I'm using the wrong words. Adding a connection. People request to add me and I'm like, I don't know who you are. and then like But you must accept them. Do you?
00:21:56
Speaker
Of course, that's your audience. You accept everyone unless it like looks like someone pretty weird. Yeah, although they always want to sell me shit. And then then my dms my DMs are literally overflowing with people trying to sell me shit. and And I'm like, guys, i am the last person you should be selling to.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I find it, ah the whole thing, i like and that's why my problem with at LinkedIn is that if someone genuinely messages me to maintain our and cultivate our relationship, I will absolutely miss it.
00:22:32
Speaker
And then I will just look like a dick because I i i have ah have full LinkedIn-ic experience. Yeah. But you know, that's, that's my improvement area, I guess at some point, it's just not a priority for me right now. Maybe, maybe it will the future.
00:22:48
Speaker
Maybe you're on other platforms, you know, you're on, you're on Instagram, you know, you have everyone, I think everyone's got their platform that they prefer. But when I say like, I maintain my relationships or my work relationships on LinkedIn, like I'm on LinkedIn every day. Yeah. Yeah. That was such a like cringe reaction.
00:23:10
Speaker
But I'm like, I'm not on Instagram every day. I don't use Instagram. Whereas I just, I don't know why, but I just use LinkedIn. And i think that's a really, it's just a really sad part of my personality, but that's my platform. I don't use Facebook. I don't have a Facebook account. I don't use TikTok. I use LinkedIn. And that's why I use so much useless knowledge in this head of mine. Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
think I think we're maybe too old for TikTok. Maybe not. I don't know. Okay, look, this has been a helpful helpful rounding off of LinkedIn. Let's not spend any more time here. when you when When you were talking about it, it did make me think that this is like the type of networking for the generation of people who grew up on MSN. i was like, yeah yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe this is like our generation just moving into being kind of, you know, the comfortable place we've always been in.
00:24:04
Speaker
I mean, how do you maintain your your network? Like what is your approach to networking? Because you do have a very strong network. I'd say like I am definitely more fewer and deeper than broader. And a really good example this morning, I caught up with someone who I first worked with at The Guardian.
00:24:26
Speaker
and Her name is Penny Jones. She's amazing. I'm going to link her website in the in the feed because she's, she has lots of career stuff for women and she's a coach. And I also worked with her at Condé Nast coincidentally later. And, you know, I haven't seen her for two years. And I'd say like, that's the frequency of which we like see each other in person, but we message, you know, bits and pieces. I've referred clients to her, you know, I've um helped one of her clients out with something.
00:24:52
Speaker
And we went for a cold water swim. And like that to me is like a good example of like, but i also would never refer to Penny as like networking. Penny is just like my friend who happened and who happens to have been my colleague at some point.
00:25:07
Speaker
That was one of my questions or like that's one of the questions I had as I pondered networking is like what is the difference between building a network and friendships? Like is there a difference?
00:25:21
Speaker
Yeah, so so at the event that I went to, the one that was talking about earlier, she was talking, the the speaker, her name is um Vanessa Villelli. She was really cool, actually. Like, I was like, how didn't I engage with this content for a decade? But she was very cool. She gave a great thing. But she was talking in her speech about basically it's not networking, it's just relationship building. And and it's just making connections and connecting with people. And sometimes you don't necessarily know when or what it is that you like could find useful it's just that like this is someone that you work with and I suppose for me the difference is like I will happily maintain and cultivate a connection based on frankly just like how much I like them yeah And like the chemistry that I have with them.
00:26:07
Speaker
And I just won't hang out with people who don't really fit that criteria, whether I want something from them or not. Like, that's just not. and And I suppose I also treat people who reach out to me with that same lens, which maybe makes me feel a bit standoffish to others if they haven't made the cut.
00:26:28
Speaker
But you just, I think you do have to be realistic with networking. Like, what is it Dunbar's number? You can only maintain so many active relations.
00:26:38
Speaker
I thought it was 150, but might be. I don't know. Sure. I believe you. But yeah, I think that you have to kind of preserve your energy. And I would say fewer deeper is probably better than loads of irrelevant, shallow ones. Would we say...
00:26:55
Speaker
The experts agree? No. Right. Okay. i expect ah So ah the bit that like I am really pants at and the bit that you were talking about at the start is like, I need to make this connection because there is strategic value in making it. And I ah have never, ever done that. And I don't know if I would, should. I don't know. ah That feels quite inauthentic to me. But what do you think?
00:27:24
Speaker
Just recovering from a small bout of the hiccups, if you must know. But if this... It lets me get it out without a hiccup. So I think like ah one person who it's always good to have in your network is to have a connector who's the person who can connect you to other people. And like, these are the people who are typically like extroverted, not necessarily, but they know a lot of people. They know what they're up to. They can hook you up with other other people. I think i ah I definitely wouldn't classify myself as a connector, but I i do think knowing a connector is really helpful.
00:28:00
Speaker
The other thing I would say is that networking when you're introverted, like to survive and run that in a big group, i'd like i I don't even know if I would recommend going to big group networking if you're introverted. It's just not even something I ah i would do. So I can't hand on heart say,
00:28:17
Speaker
that's a good idea. But smaller groups, more organic, greater depth of conversation, I would say is definitely a good kind of approach for people who feel more introverted. Like, you know, if I were thinking about, if I had to hang out with like 20 strangers for two hours, I think my ideal setting would probably be like over dinner and they're all women. And and And there might be some, you know, i i actually at work ah for a couple of years had run a a dinner on International Women's Day. And it was the first time that like 40 or so women in our same area all came together and ah they everyone was split up and we had a couple of conversation prompts, but I had such a good night. And I think that's that's quite a nice example of how you can network, but in so in a slightly more intimate way, which I feel like is probably more up my street. but How do you manage kind of social overload? you just MSN, DM? It's just all LinkedIn for me. I think I've made that pretty clear.
00:29:21
Speaker
No, I think my my preference would be what you've described. You know, a small group of like fun people with something in common to like talk about. I'm much more likely to go to that kind of small, intimate group.
00:29:35
Speaker
event than I am to go to like a large topic based event. I would really say that like, unless I am on very good form and like pretty well rested, I really just am not good in large group events. So they are therefore a waste of my time.
00:29:57
Speaker
Like I remember going to one in the houses of parliament, like earlier this year and it was about women's health and it should have just been because You know, it it should have been easy, but I was just so tired when I got there. And I was like standing in this room of people and I was thinking, you know, I need to meet this insurance company. Like that's who I really want to meet. ah I did do some preparation and I knew who I wanted to meet.
00:30:23
Speaker
And i just I just sort of froze up and it just wasn't worth it. So I think I have to... almost therefore go to things on the fly it's almost like on the day i'll sort of know if i'm invited to something and obviously you know if it's something that needs an rsvp that's that's different but if i like know know that i'm invited to something but then i decide based on whether i feel like i'm going to get something productive from it but if i'm completely exhausted i actually just don't don't go yeah
00:30:57
Speaker
this is ah This is a good i mean segue into the um other some of the other things that we'd spoken about, talking
Networking and Burnout Solutions
00:31:06
Speaker
about today. um Networking when burnt out, I think, is quite an interesting topic.
00:31:11
Speaker
but There is value in... there being, i think when you're burnt out, I certainly would be less likely to do networking. But I would, if we just reframe that slightly, connecting with other people when you're burnt out, I think can actually be really helpful because they can come up with fresh eyes, they can sort of help guide you. And and when you're burnt out, I would say you have a stronger impetus for change and people sort of love to be on a change journey.
00:31:41
Speaker
and and to kind of help you at an inflection point so it sounds like weird advice but i actually think networking when burnt out could be really good that is interesting advice it's definitely not what i thought you were going to say i thought we we're just gonna say no to that i thought this was just going to be a don't do it it's too tiring but you think You're not wrong. You're not wrong that like one of the one of the bits of advice from our burnout episode, right, was like social connections are really important. And actually like when you feel up to it, meeting other people is a really good way to support the recovery from burnout. So you're right. Basically, I just didn't expect it.
00:32:19
Speaker
i think... I think when, yeah I think when I was burnt out, i the thing that I struggled with was like, I wouldn't have necessarily been able to connect because I was almost seeing myself in the third person and therefore not really able to listen.
00:32:37
Speaker
However, I would also say that one of the key drivers of my burnout was how isolated I felt. So I think you are right, but it's just, I'm not a big fan of people kind of forcing themselves into networking situations if they aren't okay.
00:32:55
Speaker
Because I just, I don't know how much you can connect or build build a connection. And that's what this is really, isn't it? it's It's about building some kind of connection that you want to then maintain.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's right. Yeah, maybe let me clarify then, it's probably about reconnecting with someone who you feel kind of um close enough to.
00:33:17
Speaker
ah you know could be someone on your board or or whatever, but reconnecting, I think, is really important. Networking when overbooked, i i sort of feel really strongly that like we all need to stop this expectation of going for a coffee with people.
00:33:36
Speaker
Someone who's had six shots today, but also it puts quite, I think it puts quite a lot of pressure on kind of the length and, or frequency or, or that kind of thing. And actually ah having sort of different touch points at different, you know, as you say, like just pinging them a message saying, well done, or like I saw this article and I thought of you.
00:33:55
Speaker
And I think those are all just lighter touch ways to cultivate a connection without having to see people because everyone's really busy, right? Like, yeah. That's I also, i mean, like today is the example again, like I went cold water swimming with Penny and, and we were going to go for a coffee. And then I was like, Penny, I know you really like cold water swimming. Can, can you take me um to the place? nine ah And like, I mean, there wasn't much swimming done to be fair, but it's more like paddling around. Chat. to Chat.
00:34:25
Speaker
chat, chat, chat, paddle, paddle, paddle. But like that actually made it like so fun. And, you know, I think there's a lot to be said for like doing things together. I don't think i would quite like necessarily go exercising as a way of networking.
00:34:40
Speaker
It's a very specific type of relationship that I think allows you to kind run with someone and feel that it's productive. I do think it exists. I just don't have anyone that comes to mind.
00:34:54
Speaker
I mean, if I go on like, like cult, like if you just think about like 10 people running and talking about business in my head, they're all bald men. Yeah. They're all, they're all bros.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah. They all have a gilet. Yeah. Or, or, or, or equally they're just forming a Peloton and cycling to Brighton on a Saturday morning.
00:35:18
Speaker
but I don't know those people. No, neither do I. But, And i would I don't know if it's too much of a sassy generalization to say i don't want to know them. But I think that's probably, it's probably near close to true.
00:35:35
Speaker
We digress. i right how would you fit How would you fit people in when you feel overbooked? When I feel overbooked, I was literally in my head as you asked me this question. I was thinking, well, I just wouldn't fit them in. I just wouldn't fit them in. I would just cancel something to to make either make space for them or, yeah, like I i like, for me, what works is a breakfast.
00:36:00
Speaker
Like I like a workday breakfast pretty early, like at 8 Because then it's like you get to see someone, love it, start the day.
00:36:11
Speaker
Fine. You're full of food. You've got had a nice coffee. You've seen someone you like, but you're not, your whole day is not out of sync. That's what works best for me. And I think if I'm really busy and I get a message from someone who I care about that is effectively them saying like, I need your help.
00:36:28
Speaker
I will say breakfast. You know, like ah it just, it's, it's a manageable way for me to fit it all in um And that's because I have no boundaries with my work day.
00:36:40
Speaker
So it's not effective for me to say, oh do you want to do dinner or drinks? And I don't like to drink on weekdays with a few exceptions, with the odd exception, but I don't generally drink definitely want Monday to Wednesday. And that's such a good kind of rollback.
00:36:57
Speaker
I don't drink much. so i actually I actually just don't drink Monday to Wednesday. But yeah, so that works for me even when I'm really busy. But to be honest, if I'm feeling really overwhelmed, I just don't fit them in I don't, I will do a virtual.
00:37:12
Speaker
I do like a virtual chat, but that does then make it, I think, quite professional. you know what mean? It's like, oh, okay, you needed to talk to me about the fact that you want to new job. Here's my half an hour I will give you about that new job.
00:37:27
Speaker
Yeah, but also think that's okay, right? Because you're helping someone out and like that's what you have available to offer. And actually think that's really generous. When people, I had this a lot actually when I put a call out on LinkedIn about if anyone was looking,
00:37:43
Speaker
ah for a coach and id I'd had quite a few people who for whatever reason like that didn't work out but they still wanted to ask me questions and I just didn't have the capacity to kind of devote a lot of time to these people but you know but like I basically said like either leave me a voice note on WhatsApp and I'll get back to you with a voice note if you can't schedule a call I really like that as a kind of aye that can be yeah Voice notes very rarely go over 10 minutes, I would say. They probably shouldn't.
00:38:15
Speaker
No, I think if you're 10 minutes, that's a call. And also like just saying, i I'm so sorry, I don't have time for a call, but ah pop your questions in an email. I might not get back to you straight away, but i promise I will. yeah and And that for me is like a way of...
00:38:29
Speaker
a way of kind of keeping it manageable in terms of diary time, which is which is the crunch point for everyone, right? Like everyone is really busy and every minute has an opportunity cost somewhere else. So I guess if I was hoping for something from someone else, I could ask them the same thing. Like when I was researching coaching courses, I reached out to like five people. I'd say that's actually one of the only times I've used my network to kind of directly, specifically ask about things. And people are really happy to help, but I think there's also, you have to be really, really tight on what you're asking them and making it really light touch for them. Yeah. Like get back to you in whatever way feels right. But yeah, that I actually found that very helpful.
00:39:09
Speaker
So I suppose I do network. I think there's no question that you do network. It's just maybe you are doing it without realizing and like without it being this kind of very active, deliberate strategy.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah. and that's how i feel about my network because it is all formed from basically the connections of people i have directly worked with like anyone who is actually someone i'd be like yeah i know them they they know someone who i have worked with directly And I actually like most of the people I've worked with. it's very It's very, very few places that I don't like my colleagues. So I just, I think for me, it's like I probably am networking, but really I'm just catching up with people that I really like.
00:39:52
Speaker
And that is then sort of networking. Can I ask you a few questions just to kind of round us off? Yeah. one First question. What did you learn about networking in a like structured way from coaching?
00:40:07
Speaker
Did you get any tips on like how to do it, how to do it authentically, how to set boundaries? And yes, do you have advice specifically on how to network with people who are much more senior than you?
00:40:23
Speaker
So on the first one, interestingly, i like everything about coaching is connecting with people, right? So I wouldn't say that I've learned anything specifically about coaching, but about networking, sorry. But I i would say that like you you learn a huge amount about connecting with people. And I suppose... Some of the really sort of, if I was just off the top of my head coming up with the top tips, that would be asking open questions.
00:40:47
Speaker
ah You can have a roster of just like questions that you can reel off, you know, like what's keeping you busy these days or what does summer look like for you or those kinds of things just to kind of build a bit of rapport. I think rapport and building trust in a conversation is really important. And then the other thing I would say as part of like connection building is about how deeply you listen.
00:41:10
Speaker
And there was this, a bit like how I was saying earlier, if you're preloading a question in your brain, you're you've not been listening. yeah So like level one is like, I'm listening to you talk and I'm preloading the question. So like I'm sort of paying attention to the content, but I'm not really listening.
00:41:27
Speaker
And then level two is like, okay, I'm really focusing on what you're saying. And, oh, it's so fascinating that, you know, you've you've used this word a couple of times and like what, you know, that's really like that. If we were to kind of interpret that and draw a conclusion from that, perhaps you're feeling X, Y, said And then level three is like paying full attention to like body language and like what people are not saying and what the gaps are saying and where the silences are and those sorts of things. And it's, I i think I was really surprised and I think everyone will be really surprised to realize what level of listening you actually normally do because it's very rare to actually be listening at level three. yeah
00:42:10
Speaker
and And like, you know, the thing that I love about coaching is that like, if you have a good coach, you get to level three listening and that becomes like a much deeper connection yeah than yeah level level one listening, which is just totally superficial. yeah But could be like what you do in the pub with like a wider group of people. You're like, oh, how's football? oh yeah, football was really interesting. Anyway, what are you doing this weekend? Like, you know, that kind of pitter-patter conversation. Not very interesting, not very deep, not very meaningful. So yeah, I'd say those.
00:42:42
Speaker
And then you asked a question about networking with people more senior. i I used to be like really good at this. And then I think I just stopped bothering to do that, which is kind of lazy.
00:42:55
Speaker
But I would say that people who are more senior are just people. so And they'll be tired. They'll want a loo break. they'll They're going to want a coffee. All of those are reference points.
00:43:05
Speaker
you know you can engage them in a conversation or i don't think it has to be any more complicated than that when people send me a message and they're like i really want to be really good at strategy i'm like oh fucking hell that's sweet message to fair It's really nice, but I'm also, you know, i would happily just be, oh, let's go for a walk around the block.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And tell me what's going on with you. That's a way more interesting conversation to me than a kind of paternalistic, like, teaching mode or whatever. Yeah. What do you think? you I mean, I guess in in the startup world, there's like a combo of people who are more senior, but also perhaps let's expand the question to people who might have more kind of power or influence, you know, like an investor or or a VC or you know, how how do you go about that? Unfortunately, that's a category of human that I don't like to talk to.
00:44:04
Speaker
No, is that true? It is. It is true. That was a true statement. But the reason the reason for that is that it's not that they're not nice people. Obviously, there's loads of really gregarious, like nice, nice investors. I think that when you speak to an investor at an event and you work in a startup, you're on record. You're immediately...
00:44:25
Speaker
on record, how are you? Where do you work? As soon as you said where you work, they will ask you questions about like performance and that's fine, right? And sometimes it's interesting and nice, but that is, I just, I'm always on edge around that category of person.
00:44:44
Speaker
anyway And yeah, they're not useful to me at the moment. When they were useful, I can switch it on. It takes a lot of energy. can perform. i can be selling because even if you're talking to them and you're not deliberately selling, you actually are selling. You're selling and you're representing wherever you work.
00:45:05
Speaker
Whereas if I'm not needing that, um like in my current role, I have no... or very, very little contact with our investors ah or new investors. And so therefore, i i wouldn't I wouldn't put myself in a scenario where I had to talk to people with that kind of power because I don't i don't personally need their money. And I don't want to be on the record, right? the Other people can be on the record, but I don't want to be on the record with them.
00:45:32
Speaker
yeah however what I would say is the same comment that you made does apply they are just people too like you know they probably want to have an interesting conversation so every now and again when I am caught off guard and it's like you're an investor I usually try and like steer it actually away from my job because and if if if we're talking about my job It's transactional. To your point, we're not connecting, actually. They're doing a kind of information recce and I'm doing a panic, right?
00:46:07
Speaker
So, but I think if you make it about something else, you know, you're... children, your dog, your, you know, how you got there, what you thought of the event, what you thought was really interesting.
00:46:18
Speaker
You kind of, one, I guess, actually probably increased the chances of it being a meaningful connection, but two, you take it out of this very, very transactional plan. I guess like the truth is with with all the people I know in my network that are much more senior than me, It's the same, the same rules apply with me. i i either like directly know them, like they were an investor in Alva or I've worked with them or they have been directly introduced to me by someone who has worked with me for a very specific reason. It's not like, I don't have loads of like loose CEOs, you know, just like hanging around.
00:46:55
Speaker
So there's usually therefore when I see them something to talk about because I talk about that mutual connection or that job or whatever. So yeah, I i think that that that what you said is the most relevant thing, which is just to remember like most people feel the same as you and they're just human beings. And if you really want to have a conversation with them, probably most people, no matter how senior they are, won't mind. Yeah.
00:47:16
Speaker
i As you were talking, it reminded me that I'm totally getting this out of sync with our agenda today, but there is a book that like hasn't been mentioned yet. I sort of say it hesitantly, How to Win Friends and Influence People.
00:47:35
Speaker
ah have read this one. Okay. I haven't. And like some of it's just sort of like icky American, like super transactional networking but there were some really interesting things in there one of the things I think is really important is just like remembering people's names and like details about them that's like super important to just cultivating a connection and another really important one is just not mispronouncing people's names and I can't tell you how fucked off I get when I get an email that says dear Elle I was like
00:48:15
Speaker
how did you conclude that was my first name like what the fuck ah so yeah i think just always be always put your best foot forward on on someone's name i'm gonna have one last question for you before you okay you touched on it earlier but networking versus friendships when when when does the line cross Well, yeah, it's an interesting one.
00:48:39
Speaker
I think I would say most of the people, I probably have like three tiers of network. Four, maybe three, let's say three. I have like my LinkedIn connections. best Best case, we interact with each other's content. we send I don't really know you. i don't I don't know you. But are you, would I say you're in my network? Yeah, probably. Probably in it.
00:48:59
Speaker
I know your name. I might recognize it. Maybe I've met you once. Then I would say you have like the second tier, which is people I genuinely like, but that maybe I've worked with or I've met multiple times. And in another life, we'd be friends, but instead we're just the occasional WhatsApp person quite transactional in those whatsapps i e i've got a job was thinking do you want it and they'll say no not me but someone else and then they'll be like how are you and you'll have a nice little chat and it's pleasant and maybe every now and again you go for a drink and then there's like people i have met from work that i want to spend time with in my life
00:49:40
Speaker
And that in the most inner circle is for me completely intertwined with my actual friends. Like they are just friends. And I think so therefore I would say the delineation is like, I would really want to spend my free time with those individuals.
00:49:58
Speaker
Whereas probably in the middle tier, I'd happily spend an 8am work breakfast, but I probably wouldn't spend my weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think that's actually a really nice framework. i I'm not very good at cultivating the second or third tier. I'm like tier one only, which ah probably is leaving a few people. Absolutely fine. You've got to, you've got to do what you've got to do. Okay.
00:50:21
Speaker
Who's going to do the too long, didn't listen today? I'll do it. You go for it. I'm feeling brave. Too long, didn't listen. Networking is actually about connections.
00:50:33
Speaker
And connecting with people is something everyone does and introverts can do it. And it's okay if you hate all the big stuff because there's lots of good stuff in the middle and in the smaller groups. And if all else fails, just treat LinkedIn like MSN.
00:50:52
Speaker
Treat LinkedIn like MSN. um Yeah, I think that's, is that it? would you Would you add anything? What have I missed? think that's it.
00:51:02
Speaker
I think that's a good summary. I just think don't put too much pressure on yourself. It's probably easier to build a good network if you don't feel stressed about building a good network. Just go and go cold water swimming with a nice person.
00:51:16
Speaker
Yeah, go to an event, go Maverick.
00:51:20
Speaker
anyway that's probably not my best advice. I'm going to retract that one. That might get edited out. Right. Okay. Thanks for joining us today. As always, if something in today's episode has really resonated, spread the magic, share it with a friend, post it on your socials or leave a rating or review on your platform of choice.
00:51:41
Speaker
This really makes a huge difference to us. And that's how the coven grows until next time. Bye. Bye.