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S3, E9 The Career Coven: Charting a Course for the C-suite with Tiny Kennedy
2 Plays4 minutes ago
In this episode Annie interview’s Tina Kennedy, a former colleague and general all around legend to anyone who has had the true pleasure of working alongside her. Tina has recently started a new role as the Chief Customer Officer at the Ordnance Survey. Prior to that, she led the product and commercial teams at SimplyHealth which is one of the UK’s leading health insurers. She’s held quite the number of senior corporate roles, giving her a lot of wisdom to share.
Tina has an incredible perspective on work, life and balance and this episode touches upon all of that. Annie and Tina also discuss how:
- Tina has approached building her career
- Lessons on progression in different environments
- How Tina prepared to start her new role
- What lessons Tina has to share on working with a family (note, be present).
We’re so grateful to have had Tina as a guest on the podcast, and we hope you find this chat as inspiring as we did.
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think!
Follow Tina here.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Career Coven'
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to The Career Coven, the career podcast for serious careers with unserious
Meet Tina Kennedy: A Career Transition
00:00:11
Speaker
chats. This week is a different kind of episode to some of our others in series three, and that's because it's just me, Annie, the recovering workaholic, interviewing my dear friend and former colleague, Tina Kennedy.
00:00:26
Speaker
Tina is really an extraordinary person. She is about to become the chief customer officer of the Ordnance Survey, and she has just left Simply Health, where she was the product director and P&L owner, and that is where we worked
Career Motivations and Balancing Parenthood
00:00:42
Speaker
together. In this chat, we cover her career, what has motivated her career choices and moves, and also a little bit about how she has managed being a parent and having such an impressive corporate experience. career. Really hope you enjoy this week's episode. I loved speaking to Tina and so here it goes. Thank you so much Tina for being here today. I honestly cannot wait to have a conversation with you. I feel like I learn so much from you literally every time we speak and um also always have a lot of fun which is important.
00:01:19
Speaker
So Tina, let's get into it today. How are you? Firstly, how how is your week? You're about to start a new job. How are you feeling about starting a new job?
00:01:29
Speaker
Well, firstly, can I just say thank you so much for such an amazing introduction. It's so good to be here and I'm really, really pleased to ah to have been asked by you to come along. So thank you. I learned loads from you too. so you know, it's a mutual feeling. How's my week? ah It's been really good. So I finished work. I have um a really nice gap between starting again Ordnance Survey. So that's just a really great kind of reset for me. I very rarely have time off, as as you know. You're similar, I think, in that it's so passionate about work and and kind of, you know, maybe slightly overdue work.
Reflecting on a 30-Year Career
00:02:08
Speaker
and thinking other of these
00:02:11
Speaker
um and so it's quite nice to have actually what is a really good mental break yeah yeah it's honestly something i always say to people right I'm so as you know I'm so good at like dishing it out I'm like You've got to take a break. Make sure you take a break. Always take a break for your next job. And then I've like literally never done no I know. You go from one thing to another. i know. I'm the same. And, um you know, this is probably the longest break. I normally might have a week, maybe. and This is a month, which is fab.
00:02:42
Speaker
It's really good. And I'm sort of of only a few days into it. And what I've realised in that time is that it's just, ah it's really hard to describe, but it's like a mental...
00:02:56
Speaker
clean. It's almost like you put you take your brain out and put it in the washing machine and it gives a good kind of you know deep clean and then you are good, good to go again. It's something in it that is definitely beneficial.
00:03:10
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So Tina, let's um let's start with, if you're if you're happy to do it, just a little bit of a brief intro about your career, the type and size of places that you've worked, and then we'll get into you know your wisdom and tips Okay, yeah. So and I've ah had a long career. I'm sort of, i guess, 30 years in. It's set of more than 30
Career Transitions and Continuous Learning
00:03:33
Speaker
years. That's quite frightening to to kind of reflect on. In a wide variety of different businesses, mostly I'm a corporate girly, really. So most of the companies I work for have been large corporates. So I ah basically started as a and graduate trainee at United Biscuits, which is KP, McVitie's and Ross Young's, and um in marketing. My degree was business and marketing. And really the so first 15 years of my career were were very marketing-orientated roles. And at the time, you have to kind of throw back to pre-internet, And that's how ah long I've been working. Digital marketing meant putting a website up yeah and direct mailing people because there weren't really email addresses. There wasn't any SMS. There wasn't any kind of technology smartphones, that kind of thing. I know it's so frightening. That's actually really...
00:04:27
Speaker
But like, it's actually completely incredible to think about how much things have changed and how much you must have had to like continuously learn in that area. Yeah, that's, that's extraordinary. Well, so I'll just give you a ah but prime example of something that just wouldn't happen now. When I graduated, I'd concentrated on getting my degree because I had, you know, a little bit of an ups and downs in my, um in in getting that education. And so my final year, really, really had to double down on actually getting the degree.
00:04:57
Speaker
And I missed all the milk rounds and all the kind of stuff that, you know, that, yeah. yeah So I was really lucky to get on a FMCG ah graduate training course. And how I did it was I sent a direct mail letter with a tear-off slip at the bottom, inviting people to interview me. And that in itself is just like night and day of where we were and where we are now, right?
Diverse Experiences Across Sectors
00:05:20
Speaker
You just wouldn't be, you know. Good for you. I mean, that I think that shows what little Tina was like, you know.
00:05:27
Speaker
Rappi, driven, entrepreneurial. Love that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All those things. And anyway, so yeah, so I started in my career in the dark ages. It's very, very safe to say. And yes, it has been a continual kind of development and learning. And I'm so excited. driven by learning new things. so So the big thing about my career is not necessarily the companies, but the sectors. So I've i've worked in just about every sector. So from FMCG to telecoms to financial services, et cetera, et cetera. And it's been a kind of growth from marketing through commercial roles like ownership of P&L. So I've owned P&Ls at Experian of around 50 million and Vodafone of 320 million. And
00:06:09
Speaker
you know And then um sort of smaller businesses like Arian, which was a software developer for social housing. One of the reasons I did that is I grew up in social housing. It was like I was in my 50s and it's like a career career opportunity to sort of feel like you're giving back something.
00:06:23
Speaker
um And then Simply Health Maze Laterly, which was definitely a kind of blend of ownership of P&L, but also trying to innovate and create in a... market that is quite set in its ways and uh what are you gonna say I've just said stagnant but and maybe that's a bit maybe that's a bit marked well I just think all companies have legacy right but Simply Health and Arian and it Even the one I'm going to, they've just been around for a long time. And that's got huge benefits in terms of longevity of of brand and purpose and all those sort of things. But when you want to drive change in those companies, you know that in itself is and can be ah challenging. And and you know that's what I found. And really, the last sort of since probably 2015, so the last 10 years have been very much in that transformation space. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so so really everything that's driven me is trying to create and innovate
Leadership and Change Narratives
00:07:26
Speaker
in an environment where that's not easy, but incredibly rewarding.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, and I think having worked with you you, know, you have so many skills, but if I was asked for like one thing about you, it is that you can create such a good narrative for change and bring people together.
00:07:48
Speaker
with you on that journey, even in really quite challenging environments. And I shouldn't be laughing because like, it's not funny, but I think that like, in a way for me, that was, that is like so much of leadership. is It's, I think it's the most important leadership skill and definitely,
00:08:12
Speaker
I think the way that we work together really well is that like, I would often be like, we can do this, this, this, this. this this this this this And then you'd you'd like you'd be able to be like, okay, what is the narrative of how we would get this organization to move directionally that way? Because obviously I massively underestimated how quickly things would happen in an environment with so much legacy. And it's really interesting that you said, you know, that there's so many positives environments like that.
00:08:41
Speaker
For me, that was very new. But one thing that I still reflect is like so amazing about Simply Health and the people there, and Susan is agreeing in the background, is um the absolute loyalty that they had from...
00:08:56
Speaker
their staff and the longevity of the people that the tenure of people that we worked with and and like that did really help us I think you know people that were like well actually I've been here for 10 years and I can tell you exactly why we do it that way and it was like oh my god okay Okay, but i there is someone here who can explain things that don't necessarily make sense when you come in as new. And I think that's probably, that's probably really, I mean, it certainly helped me when I was there, but I'm sure it really helped you when you were driving the change agenda to, to understand the legacy of of the business. Yeah, I think providing that legacy doesn't come with a very fixed mindset. We've tried that before and it didn't work. I think if people within ah an organisation that have been there a long time, if they still have you know that sort of growth mindset or open mindset as to we can do things differently, it's okay, then that's great.
00:09:52
Speaker
It's not always the case, but it's great when you find that. And um those people are the the people that really, I guess there's two things. One is there's a spark in them. um And awakening that spark is one of the greatest achievements, I think, of a career. So if you can, as a leader, awaken that spark and do that that, that's incredible and incredibly rewarding for both parties involved. yeah And you want people who don't see the boundaries, they see the horizon. That that is basically what they see. And they just want to want help and guidance as to how to get there. And they're, you know, by far...
00:10:28
Speaker
The people that I always... So the biggest thing, I guess, in my career that I've really, really enjoyed is identifying those people who've got that spark or can have that spark and and really nurturing that into life. Yeah, exactly. And that's so rewarding. You know, that is the thing that when you take a step back from any company, it's the people.
00:10:47
Speaker
And it's always the people that you remember. ah You don't remember some of the tricky situations. You don't remember some of the frustrations necessarily. Yeah. But you do remember the people and and um the people that fit into that camp of they need a spark, they need ah you know they need to be nurtured and and then the flame will will come and they will go and they won't see the boundaries anymore. They'll just see what's what's out there. And then the opposite people who... yeah regardless we just aren't going to be on that change curve don't want to be uh just just very very outside of their comfort zone and I totally get it you know I totally understand that people can be still in that camp and and that's you know that that to recognize that as a leader I think is also as equally important yeah agreed you know I mean ultimately to try and help them um to make the right choice for them as well on that journey Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Okay. So can I ask, was it, you said you've worked in all
New Role at Ordnance Survey
00:11:42
Speaker
of these different sectors. yeah and Was that a deliberate choice that you didn't, that you, that you did want to change sector, that you didn't want to become a like sector expert, or was it just more that like, that's where the roles took you? It was a choice about learning. Yeah.
00:11:59
Speaker
okay So i could have stayed a subject matter expert in marketing and expanded sectors. I could have done it like that. I could have ah expanded my kind of ah skill set in the same sector, but I chose to do both. And that actually, in ah in a way, has been just the thing that's kept me really interested is that. I think it's a risk to do both. I think that no career is linear. Yeah. Mine definitely isn't.
00:12:26
Speaker
So, you know, from a sort of, um if you look at my role titles, my seniority, it's been up and down and all the rest of it. And that's that's fine. And that's the choice I've made in being able to keep learning. Yeah. I've never had that linear path from kind of, you know, that my goal is to be a CEO and this is the path I'm going to go on. It's been very much what could I learn from this organisation? What could I learn from the people I'm going to be working with? And learning new sectors is just really interesting to me. It's just um being able to apply skills that you have to a new organisation and new sector has been the thing that motivated me the most.
00:13:04
Speaker
Nice. Okay. So tell us about your new role. And I'm particularly interested in like what you're most excited about in this change in this next change that you're going into.
00:13:17
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm um moving into Ordnance Survey, actually, which is a fabulous, and you know, very, very heritage brand. 300 years old, I think. So it'll be the oldest company I've ever worked for into a chief customer officer role. So leading their sales and service organization, which there's a number of aspects that really, really excite me. One is Ordnance Survey, like all businesses at the moment are having to really think about what they're there for, right? what What is it that they do? And, you know, traditionally I've seen as ah a mapping company, but a kind
Company Culture and Team Dynamics
00:13:52
Speaker
of almost paper maps company. So, you know, and it's moving from paper to data and, you know, into more of a data platform business. So how can we provide data that enables businesses to solve their problems?
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah. So it's a different approach. perspective than ordnance survey that we might all be aware of or know and love. The people there are incredibly passionate about the value of that data and the value of kind of solving business problems through that data.
00:14:23
Speaker
And they want, you know, they want to grow like all businesses. They want to grow. They want to be more commercial. They've got that legacy thing going on, ah you know, lots of people with a lot of longevity of working there. And, you know, lots and lots, therefore, of of real opportunity to bring those people along and drive positive change for that business. What excites me the most, I think, having said all that, because that's quite exciting in its own right, is every person I've met in that business. Not only are they...
00:14:55
Speaker
really good, like really, really talented people. They're really bloody nice, right? I think that that's great. It's great. It really, really matters. So I... And I have to say, like, when we worked together...
00:15:10
Speaker
that was definitely also true. It was like, obviously I left quite quickly, but I do look back on our team and you and Katie and other people we worked with. And it was like, regardless of all the ways that that role did not suit me, the people was so nice and kind. And it was, it was, there was funny moments, you know, we amongst what was like quite a frantic moment.
00:15:36
Speaker
time onboarding we did have we had fun you know and it really just makes such a big difference and as you can say I'm a big believer as well that it's all people so yeah when you told me about this new role and and this was like the first thing you said I was like that is so great because like what's the point? absolutely You spend so much time with those people yeah but it's really important to have a great dynamic and I think that The CEO at OS has been there 18 months maybe, and I can tell, I can see immediately that he's really focused on bringing his leadership team together and creating an environment where there's healthy challenge, but it's, you know, it feels safe. It feels like you can have very honest conversations. and still have each other's back, you know, and I think that's really, really great. Yeah, Simply I've had the best team at Simply Health. Honestly, the people I've worked with have been incredibly inspiring for me, just amazing people. And I'll miss them all, really, really will miss them all. I missed you all a lot for a long time. Like i probably don't know as much now, but like for sure, I was surprised how much I actually just missed...
00:16:49
Speaker
those people but there's just so many it's such a good team and I think like with both of us we should look back on that very very proudly like bringing that team together because yeah it was just so this is where I think that you know you recruited the team that I inherited right so we we shared the P&L where I had the consumer business you had the corporate business I had no team I had them had the incredible Mark St. Jones, who is just amazing. But I didn't recruit Mark. right He was recruited by Katie. And you recruited ah all of those amazing people. And I inherited them. Right. And that's a real challenge because they loved you. Absolutely loved you. And um I had to establish a kind of relationship with them post Annie, which, you know, wasn't easy. Yeah, post Annie. You know, they were all traumatised because you left. and but
00:17:42
Speaker
But, you know, I think I did that. It took a while, but I think I did that. And i I love that team. They're incredible and they're incredibly talented. And, you know, also identified some fantastic people within Simply Health that also kind of completely were amazing. So, you know, there was a there was a core team in our in our bit. And then there were this kind of wraparound and people that just. had that spark, you know, that we talked about that kind of wanted to just see through some innovation within Simply Health. And that was that was great also to identify those and bring them along the journey. and And they were fantastic, incredible talent. So, yeah, that's what I'm hoping sort of with Ordnance Survey. I've already met a lot of the team. I can see they're really talented. I think there's huge impetus for kind of change and and this drive to sort of build this go-to-market strategy that's going to, you know, grow the business and and support all our customers really, really well. And I'm really up for the challenge. I'm really looking forward to it. And I think I'll be incredibly well supported by the whole business, actually, which is such a great feeling. Yeah, oh I can feel your excitement and that's making me very excited for you. Okay, so we've already covered that you're taking and a bit of a break, which is great.
Non-linear Career Path and Open Mindset
00:19:00
Speaker
But what else are you doing to kind of prepare yourself for the new role?
00:19:05
Speaker
Yes, but I've had a few. um I've been in in um a few times to meet key people um and team members. i have a very sort of broad, and I usually do this, a very sort of broad brush experience.
00:19:17
Speaker
Period of hate, 30, 60, 90 days, but I hate that phrase. You know, it just feels so prescriptive. I've got some ideas about what I want to do. I'm in for a few weeks and then I've got two week skiing a holiday, day right? Which is unusual. I don't normally take that much time off at Christmas. And obviously I did similar at Simply Health. I joined for two weeks and i took a month off because we'd already planned this big, big exhibition to expedition, sorry, to Lanka to do some sea turtle conservation with my two daughters. So it was actually really healthy to come in and go out and come again, if you know what I mean. And it actually, I think, helped me to really sort of hit the ground fast at Simply Health. And so similarly, kind of doing something similar. And so I'll be in for a very short period of time, really, and then um out and then back in. So I've got some goals for the first sort of few weeks, which is purely people orientated. I just want to meet as many people in the business as I can. And also just start to understand the commercial makeup of the business. So kind of, you know, what products are in the market, where we make the money from those products and how we can kind of, just so I can understand some of the sort of basics, right? And then when I come back in January, it's,
00:20:29
Speaker
sort of a period of three months before the current chief customer officer retires as well. So it'll be about kind of getting a lot out of their head and starting to make some changes. I made changes really, really quickly at Simply Health and it really, really started to build momentum. We were also thrown thrown into a bit of a situation with, you know provision of services and things. So and we had to make some very fast decisions and move things on quickly. But I think that that helps to create that momentum agreed and in organizations that have not necessarily had momentum for some time and I'm not saying that's true of a wouldn' survey I don't really know know but it certainly was true of Simply Health there wasn't a lot of momentum and creativity and innovation had had a lot of thought processes around it but not a lot of actual kind of
00:21:20
Speaker
Doing. Yeah. And so um what I want to do is get that balance of what do we need to do thinking and actually how do we do some short, sharp kind of deliveries to signal in a way that we're we're going to go for this, right? We're just going to get some stuff done. And I think that's important. But I don't want to go in with any preconceptions, which is why I'm being a bit like, I don't really want to assume anything. And and that's why I don't particularly like 30, 60, 90 day plans, because they assume a
Leadership Challenges and Workplace Politics
00:21:50
Speaker
lot. And they assume that what you might have done in previous organisations will work in this particular organisation. And that's just not the case. So I've got some ideas that I don't have. and And that is part of my preparation is just...
00:22:03
Speaker
not being too prescriptive so that I can be very open to what I hear. And the best way to hear is to understand two things for me, the people, what's going well, what's not going so well and where the money comes from. Yeah.
00:22:17
Speaker
So that's my focus. Nice. Okay, so to move on, i guess, to the things you've done and and your career and like reflections on that, I guess, what have been some of the highlights and the lowlights of your career overall? How did either either the highlights or the lowlights sort of shape your career and where you are today? Yeah, so highlight-wise, I think that I suppose in the last 10 years, I've really focused on that transformation and the innovation and creativity and trying to get people to...
00:22:54
Speaker
maybe not think differently, but to feel empowered to be able to not only bring ideas, but own ideas and and run with ideas. And that's a real highlight when you see that shift. I mean, we've talked a lot about it in this chat, right? But, um you know, that sort of spark and then people go, right? They feel the feel the difference and they go.
00:23:15
Speaker
Whereas previously they may have not been feeling that they could either be accountable or empowered to do those things. So I love that whole kind of, and it's back to people, right? But it's about the wonderful sort of setting people up for success, helping them to feel that they are accountable, that it's not the business sitting over there in a corner, but it's, their business that they are part of and as responsible as everybody else for how that business is shaped and formed and where it makes money and how it serves customers and what value it's delivering to customers. So I think that that's been amazing. And another highlight is just, you know, I've managed and mentored a lot of people over my career and
00:23:54
Speaker
A lot of them, A, are still in touch with me, which in itself, I think, is a sort of, I hope, is a testament to my style of being a human being first and and totally, you know, always supporting people with whatever's going on because none of us know what's going on for people. And loads of them have gone on to be really successful in whatever. And I'm not defining success in any way as career because there are many, many forms of success. What's the right thing for them? Yeah, so I think that's definitely sort of, again, back to people, but it's about being able to spark change in people and nurture that change ah and drive accountability and empowerment. I really dislike hierarchy and I grew up in my career in hierarchical environments. That's how it was. right that's That's what it was. But I'm the most apolitical person and I don't really thrive at all. So some of the lowlights are people that stand on other people's shoulders to get where they want to go. And then don't turn around and put down a helping hand to help those people up. And I just really dislike that sort of behaviour. I just think it's really detrimental to the future of the company. Individuals who behave as individuals rarely have the best outcomes for the company in their head. They're rarely going to be making the right decisions for the collective rather than just for themselves. So I just don't like that sort of individualism. Yeah, I'll always remember where when um when we first met and, um you know, Katie had this like grandmaster plan of like how me and you would like fit together. And we were like, it's a bit weird that you've given the person with consumer experience, the corporate P&L, and you've given the person with corporate experience, consumer P&L. And was just like, I was a bit sort of flummoxed by it all because you were also just so much more experienced than than me. and um and And also, you know, really understood, just understood the dynamics of a corporate in a way that at that point in time, I had no idea. And I remember in our first chat, I was like,
00:25:58
Speaker
you know, why, like kind of, why aren't you in in the C-suite? Like, why aren't you more senior? You've done like so many amazing big jobs. And you said very clearly to me, I am not political.
00:26:11
Speaker
You were like, that is the, the reason is like, I won't be political. I'm not political enough. And sometimes that has cost me the promotion and the big job, but like, I just won't, I just won't do it. And I was like, I'm in love.
00:26:26
Speaker
That was really interesting. Cause, um, Yeah, I just, yeah I've got a real aversion to it. And actually, I think it has been career limiting, potentially. yeah And, you know, I've had various people say to me that I need to see the positives of political manoeuvring. And i I just can't. I honestly can't. i um I don't know what the positives are. I have ah such a strong core belief that if you're doing the right thing for the business, then it's the right thing. And I think that that's... not always shared, right? So it's not, ah there are a lot of individual agendas. Maybe it's less politics, more individualism that I just just really don't like. For me, um and this is the great thing about Ordnance Survey, is that I, when I sit around the Exco table, and I have done previously, right? I have done in previous roles. As I said, it's not been a linear career, right? I've gone up and down in seniority. and but when I've sat around that table, invariably, I'm not there to represent my
00:27:22
Speaker
team on my area of the business. I'm there to represent our business and how we can make it better, right? How we can grow it, how we can make it better for customers, all those things. And not to kind of have a sort of protectionism about what might not be going so well in my actual area, right? That's not for that table. That's for kind of, you know, but more more collective views on getting support to fix things, right? It is not to say everything's wonderful and and back off. And um I think that those people that don't recognise problems in their kind of area and don't try and fix them and sort of also create narratives around those not being the problem area. It's really hard to deal with because there's no truth in that. There's no acceptance. And it's not about throwing people under the bus or criticising them or anything. It's about if we can all collectively agree this is what we've got to fix, then we've got much more chance of fixing it. And if we don't collectively agree that this is what we've got to fix, then it will never be fixed, right? So that that's that's, I guess, what I meant by i don't like hierarchy.
00:28:31
Speaker
I don't like politics. I like empowerment and accountability. And I like teams to have the ability to... make decisions and drive good outcomes for customers. And invariably, that doesn't necessarily sit well with hierarchy because you then are making the decision at the most highest point in the organisation, not the lowest point, right? and um And when I talk about high and low, that is clearly hierarchical. But if you know what i mean, the people who are doing the work should be able to make the decisions about that. It shouldn't be a CEO who's so removed from the actual thing that's happening, usually, that they may not be able to make the right decision.
00:29:06
Speaker
and And kind of creating an environment where people are empowered to make decisions and can make those decisions. And there's a framework in which they can feel comfortable to do that is really, for me, releasing the power in an organisation. And the power should be with those individuals and not with a senior hierarchy, because that is not really where the decision making should necessarily sit. Unless obviously there's Where your high rate highly regulated, governed organisation or, you know, some of the key decisions clearly have to sit within that team. But I mean the sort of day to day operational stuff, right? Just getting stuff done. Yeah. And I think that not being political definitely has had bearing on my career. But would I change that? No.
00:29:49
Speaker
Absolutely not. I just wouldn't. And, you know, I think that it's something that I don't. but So think I'm going to be really controversial now. And I'm sure you've got male listeners as well as female. I think that politics is played really well by men.
00:30:05
Speaker
And I think that it's really interesting. I, you know, all of the research that says women won't apply for a job unless they can tick every box on the on the job description men men might get to 50 percent and go, right, this is the job for me.
00:30:17
Speaker
right And men then can be great or or right orators in organisations and create their own stories. And actually, if you dig below that, not necessarily delivering what they're orating. And women don't do that. And I think all of that, for me, is kind of in that one word, politics. When you unpick it, there's a lot of things in there. And really, I love developing people who aren't necessarily great orators or who I know have that ability to have that spark, but don't necessarily have the ear of the people that they need to have. Right. Back to the politic bit and lifting those people up and giving them a platform and and and shining the spotlight on them is another thing that I really, you know, it's been a highlight of.
00:31:01
Speaker
my career and that can be men and women by the way at Sibley Health there was definitely male that fell in that in that kind of bracket and yeah but um it invariably can it is more statistically more likely to be female I mean i would definitely yeah we do have male listeners hello male listeners we we love you but I I just think it's it's a fact right it's like the whole environment all the structures in it allow men to speak up and be visible and make it harder for women to speak up and be visible and I just don't think we're in a position to be debating that in 2025 like that is just the case and some organizations are much better than others and of course there's always exceptions to the rule but I think that and you know I work in an incredibly male dominated environment right now and obviously I consider myself someone who like can speak up I definitely didn't at the start of my career, but I do now. And I find it completely exhausting. Yeah. you know Like, because it's just, it's just the way i communicate isn't always similar to the way that they do. And I can see that they hate it. Right. Sometimes, but I don't care. But that's good.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. and but that But I know that I'm very lucky, right? That i now just don't, I don't care if I'm speaking for too long or I'm talking too much about like how people might feel or the context. or I don't care if they don't like it because I think it's important. And I listen to things that they say that I don't care about and that I don't think are important.
00:32:33
Speaker
And it's just like, you just have to be resistant. Yeah, exactly Exactly. Okay. Interesting. Sorry, and I was just going to say on that. I think I've cared too much in my career and perhaps perhaps that's made my voice smaller.
00:32:44
Speaker
And I think that's it's fantastic to hear you saying that you you don't. I know you care about people. and anybody yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but So just the context, but and I think, you know, sometimes and I have made my voice smaller. i think it's so important that ah companies recognise that women will do that. They'll make themselves smaller to fit into the gap that's left, if you know what i mean, rather than taking the space because that's... you know, the thing to do. and I listened to your Let Them podcast. And I'd never heard of that concept, right, or that movement. I'm terrible at it.
00:33:17
Speaker
So personally invested. And I care so deeply that I'm i'm not great at kind of controlling the controllable or or letting, letting, let them, let it go. Absolutely. Let it go. And having listened to that, I debated in my head whether I needed to be more like that or not, right? Yeah. And I think this area is where I could. So what you just said, right, I'm going to speak for as long as I want. I'm going to say exactly what I think. And I'm going to, you know, I think that's a good kind of not not shrinking my voice or shrinking me and and filling the space that I feel I should be able to fill. Right. I think, yes, there, definitely. But caring less. No, that's it's just not going to happen.
00:33:57
Speaker
I mean, obviously I know that we're fairly similar
Balancing Career and Parenthood
00:34:00
Speaker
in many areas, but that's how I feel. I'm like, yeah, i I'm never gonna be the person that doesn't care if someone in my team is is really upset or like doesn't feel tension when it's there and wants to fix it.
00:34:15
Speaker
I like fixing things. I don't care as much now, even than than when we worked together about people kind of not liking my style.
00:34:27
Speaker
I'm like, I don't care. i like yourself and like and And of course, if someone gives me like specific and good feedback, that's useful to me. Like I will take that in. It's not that I won't listen, but I don't, I just don't, I don't care. yeah Like, and um obviously as you know, I'm very like blunts and I think most of my feedback is that I can be very black and white and that I don't like kind of sitting in the gray and like sitting in the unknown.
00:34:53
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, I don't because I just think decisions are there to be made. And that's my, that's what i like to do. Right. But it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't mean that it's all that then. I'm so glad you listened. Anyway, I'm aware that we don't have much more of your time, Tina. So one thing I just really wanted to ask you about as like the last thing before we wrap up is really about how you've approached having such a great career as a, as a mom and, and as a working parent and, really any tips you have for people who might be young parents thinking about their career as a parent, because yeah, it's always something I've watched you do with, with such grace, but I would really love to hear kind of any thoughts or wisdom on that for our female listeners in particular.
00:35:39
Speaker
Well, so thank you, because that's really nice to hear. I think as all women who have family and a career and quite, a you know, a good career, I feel mostly that if I'm doing really well at home, I'm doing really shit at work. And if I'm doing really shit at work, I'm doing really well at home. And like how in hell am I ever going to get that balance right?
00:35:59
Speaker
Yeah. And it is a real challenge. And i I think it's also generally generationally different. So, you know, I i am... now in my 50s and obviously when I was in my 30s, you didn't really talk about children or family less, you you talked about it less at work and there was less flexibility. So, you know, you were in the office and, you know, if you had to leave early to pick up a child, it was kind of, i won't say frowned upon, but it certainly was ah career limiting to a certain aspect. And so I think that's changed. and I think that's hugely positive change, a hugely positive change. I think that how I've managed it is I have a husband who works for himself.
00:36:41
Speaker
So he can be more flexible. So and that's really supported me. How you manage it with two people with full-time kind of office-based roles, I think is whole different thing. Or, you know, a startup business or, you know, something that's just really going to take so much of your time and energy, leaving little space for other things, I think is is a challenge. Right. so So some of the, not regrets, but some of the things that I would do differently about my career as a mum and a career would be to try and find more time. um So for, you know, it was harder when my young children were young. to be able to go and take an afternoon off and go and do the sports day thing, right? So I would take holiday to go and do that. And I think that now you've probably flexibly with work as it is, you could probably go and do that for a few hours, come back and work later and one will care. right And one of the things I've done with my team, and lots of them have got young families and have had over the last 10 years in my career. I never take anybody's time away from them that they could have with their family. It's so important. And I think obviously I'm in the last, what, third of my life, probably. Time is something you can never get back, right? never, never get back. So it's really important. So I've had a lot of flexibility because of my personal circumstances, But when I am with my children, I am with them.
00:38:02
Speaker
I am not part with them. I am engaged. I'm not on devices. I'm not half working and half listening. I am with them and I think that is really important it's just I'm sure that that's talked about a lot but it is really important you have to you know if you have limited time with your children you have to make sure the time you have is so critically important to you that they can feel that not that they're a second choice or that they're um you know that you're
00:38:33
Speaker
focusing on many things at the same time. I think that's really important. And as I said to my team and always say to my team, time goes so fast and it accelerates when they start school. Your year becomes a nine month year, right? It becomes defined by September to July and it rapidly kind of accelerates. so you'll never get that time back.
00:38:55
Speaker
Take the time as much as you can within the flexibility you've got to make sure that you are present when you're able to be and you are fully in that um is so important. You know, my girls are now 13 and 17 and and um one of them, therefore, is leaving home next year. May not be for long.
00:39:14
Speaker
May come back very quickly, but it just feels like it was yesterday. And, that you know, i I haven't talked about this on this call, but you know that I am very open about the fact that it took me 10 years, 11 lots of IVF to have my first daughter, failed adoption. You know, my 30s was awful, absolutely awful and because of that. And...
00:39:36
Speaker
All of that is just, it's a foundation for, I never talked about IVF at work because that had signaled that I was going to go and have a family and that wasn't what you talked about, right? So I did that almost on my own. And those years of struggle and and strife and and financial and emotional kind of crises sort of ended when I was 38 and I had my oldest daughter. But everything changes then. Whatever, yeah I think you you said to me, you know, um when you've got a young family or when you've got a family, it's the same involvement in a different way. that When they're tiny, they need you. They've got no ability to. They're helpless. Helpless, totally. And then you have the period where they're sort of toddling around and and, you know, it's like eyes in the back of your head and you have to be always like on it. And then they go to school and they are shaped really mostly by not you, right?
00:40:23
Speaker
They're at school more than they're with you. So they become this this person and then they grow into this person and then they become teenagers and then they have different challenges. And you always will have the need to be present. It's just for different things. It's for totally different things. And don't underestimate that that is ah obviously a lifelong commitment, right? And moving from like the trying to have, which I thought was going to be the hardest thing I've ever faced. Yeah.
00:40:50
Speaker
It's not. Yeah. right The having harder. Having is harder. yeah It's harder, right? It's harder. And yeah, so um just be kind to yourself all the way through. None of us get any kind of instruction manual. Yeah.
00:41:04
Speaker
Right? You just do your best. Coming back to career, doing your best to juggle both. That's all you can do. And just don't overanalyse it and don't you know don't be hard on yourself because life's tough anyway. yeah But being your own worst critic is definitely making you will make it much tougher.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:41:19
Speaker
So try not to do that.
00:41:20
Speaker
Well, what a lovely way to end it, Tina. Always such a pleasure. And um you have such a wise perspective on everything. And I miss working with you. i love you as a human being. And I cannot wait to see the next chapter of Tina at the Ordnance Survey.
00:41:38
Speaker
good luck I admire you so much and I loved working with you and I'm so glad that we have remained friends after Simply Health and will continue to do so. Of course. Yeah, you're amazing. Thanks, Annie. you're Amazing. Thank you. Right.
00:41:54
Speaker
Speak too soon. Take care. Bye. So thank you for joining Tina and I today. As always, if something in today's episode has resonated with you, please share the love, leave a review on your podcast platform of choice, maybe share it with a friend. It makes a huge difference to us and is how the career coven grows. Thank you and see you next time.