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Exploring Positive Masculinity: Navigating the Challenges and Finding Middle Ground (feat. Matt Englar-Carlson Ph.D.)
237 Plays1 year ago
In episode 80 of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, we welcome guest Matt Englar-Carlson Ph.D. to discuss the topic of masculinities. Matt shares his personal experience of isolation as a parent and emphasizes the importance of opening up about parenting struggles to create a sense of inclusiveness among fathers. The conversation dives into the lack of male inclusion in the parenting process and the societal pressures men face to conform to certain expectations of masculinity.
Matt Englar-Carlson is a renowned expert in the field of psychology, with a specific focus on the psychology of meta-masculinities. Over the past 25 years, he has dedicated his career to helping allied professionals understand the best approaches to support boys and men. These professionals include psychologists, therapists, counselors, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, and even parents. Matt's initial interest was centered around how men access support, but his work has since evolved to encompass a broader understanding of masculinity. With a genuine passion for his field, Matt continues to make significant contributions to the understanding and betterment of men's mental health.
The three key topics covered in this episode are:
1. Positive Masculinity: Matt and Travis explore the concept of positive masculinity, highlighting the need for men to challenge societal expectations and find a middle ground that aligns with their authentic selves. They discuss the importance of men healing from their own trauma and stories in order to become positive role models for their children.
2. Men's Mental Health and Therapy: The conversation touches on the stigma surrounding men's expression of emotions and the hesitancy some men may feel in seeking therapy. They explore strategies for therapists to engage male clients in therapy, such as normalizing their experiences and setting clear goals for sessions.
3. Fatherhood and Adaptability: The discussion addresses the evolving role of fathers and the challenges they face in balancing work, family responsibilities, and maintaining social support networks. They emphasize the importance of men nurturing relationships and finding a sense of purpose in order to adapt to changing circumstances.
Overall, this episode highlights the need to redefine and promote positive aspects of masculinity, the importance of men's mental health and therapy, and the challenges and opportunities of fatherhood in today's society.
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Transcript
Understanding Masculinity and Identity
00:00:00
Speaker
I think you should have a healthy idea of what it means to be a man because of your identity, if that's an important part of your identity. Again, this is where the toxic piece comes in too. It's like if masculinity is toxic, then it's hard to have any type of pride in being like a good father or being a good man.
00:00:16
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the therapy for dad's podcast.
Introduction to Travis and Podcast's Focus
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm really, really, really excited for this one. I get to actually have one of my old professors on from grad school and it's been a little while since I was in grad school and we recently got reconnected and we've been having conversations. We connected way back in grad school. I always loved having him from one of my professors in my classes and learning from him and back then about.
00:00:59
Speaker
his passion for men and masculinity. And I got to kind of have some fun conversations with him and interviewing him way back then. And just recently now, I don't know, almost 11, 12 years later from starting grad school, we are now reconnected. And I get to have him on and talking about men and masculinity, which is totally in line with what my passion and heart is with trying to help men and fathers on this show. So before we kind of totally jump in to the topic for tonight, welcome, welcome Matt to therapy for dads.
00:01:29
Speaker
How you doing? Thanks for having me, Travis. I'm stoked to have you. I really, really am. So can you tell us just real quick, like who you are, what you do and kind of, yeah, what's going on with Matt?
Matt's Background in Counseling and Masculinity Studies
00:01:39
Speaker
Sure. My name is Matt Angler Carlson and I'm a professor of counseling at Cal State Fullerton, which is in Orange County, California.
00:01:47
Speaker
And I teach therapists. So I trained therapists like Travis and I've been working there for over two decades. Prior to being an academic, I did a variety of things. I worked in behavioral health. I was elementary school counselor and.
00:02:03
Speaker
I've always had an interest in, in gender. And I think in my own kind of PhD program, I got really much more focused on the field at the time will be what we call a new psychology of men. And as that's kind of evolved, now let's kind of view it as the psychology of men and masculinities. And so I've been working in that field for, for close to 25 years in terms of really kind of helping what I would call allied professionals understand how to, how to best help boys and men.
00:02:31
Speaker
And so for me, allied professionals really means anyone who would like to help men and boys. So that can be obviously psychologists and therapists and counselors and social workers and teachers and nurses and administrators, but anyone in those helping kind of fields and also parents too. So I've been really passionate about this field. I think initially I was interested in much more about kind of how men access support. And then I became much more interested in this other piece of that, which is like,
Psychotherapy and Men's Health
00:02:59
Speaker
if men actually did access support, would they actually find people on the other end who knew how to help them? And I think certainly initially what I began to understand is not necessarily. And so a lot of kind of my work has been on that piece primarily kind of focusing on a psychotherapy with men. So I've written a fair amount about kind of what is effective therapy with men. Tell us just a little bit more about what you're doing with that and more recently kind of the work you're doing.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I think I was really lucky at a stage of my career to find other kind of scholars out there. I think like a lot of people in this field, like my first exposure to gender studies was not through understanding men. Initially, it was actually kind of taking intro to feminism classes and gender studies or women's studies classes and
00:03:45
Speaker
even as a school counselor, actually, I was more comfortable working with kind of girls and their moms. And some of the interventions that I did were directly focused on that group, even though the majority of kind of the cases I had actually were boys. And I think at that time, I knew there was, you know, there was something going on with kind of boys. But at that time, it's within like the mid 90s, there was much more of an appreciation or an awakening around the experiences of girls from early adolescent girls that had been, for the most
Societal Narratives and Toxic Masculinity
00:04:13
Speaker
part, maybe hidden
00:04:14
Speaker
and not exposed. Going into my graduate school, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And you got to do research and work with my advisor. One of the things that came out was the time she kind of said, well, when you think about your area of research,
00:04:30
Speaker
like what you see in the client that you kind of see. And at that time when I was really aware of was that I had a lot of men on my caseload. The men in my caseload tended to stay to the end, so they weren't dropping out early. And the men that I had, the majority were coming in in acute distress.
00:04:46
Speaker
And so as I began to talk more and more about their experiences, what I kind of learned was the fact is that a lot of the men who I've been seeing have been suffering for a really, really long time. They weren't seeking help. They in many ways were just suffering in silence. So I'd ask questions around like how long you've been experiencing depression or feeling this way. And it wasn't weeks or months, it was years. So I got really interested in that. And then other thing I noticed was that
00:05:12
Speaker
I really enjoyed the work, frankly. In a sense, it wasn't very hard for me. I could build really good connections with my clients, so that passion really got created. I was voracious in learning everything I could possibly learn about the field.
00:05:28
Speaker
in her library alone at Penn State University. I read everything I could, but not just from psychology. I read anthropology. I read gender studies. I read sociology. I read family studies. I read anything I could find that I was out there and it became just a really focus on scholarship. What does the research say that we know about men and mental health and
00:05:53
Speaker
Kind of early in my career, about 20 years ago, one of the things I began to be aware of too, is I was getting a little disillusioned with kind of what I was seeing. Meaning that as I would read the research and look at it, what I was aware was that the psychology of men was not actually not the psychology of mental health, it was the psychology of mental illness. It was really a cataloging of all the things that were going wrong in men's lives.
00:06:16
Speaker
And as I read that research, I began to wonder, you know, essentially, could I find myself in the research? Could I find my friends in the research? Were there actually other elements of being a man in kind of Western society that actually had virtue and strength and honor and frankly, health? Right. And so my other colleagues and I began to have those conversations and from that came
00:06:40
Speaker
this recognition of what initially was called positive masculinity. So a colleague of mine, Mark Casalica, at the time, we kind of created that term.
00:06:48
Speaker
which at the time, I think we were aware that it was striking a chord with other kind of scholars and kind of early researchers, mainly because again, there wasn't this notion of what healthy was like, we could tell kind of male client what not to do. But we didn't have much of an idea of kind of telling him what they should be doing. That was actually related to their lives. And so yeah,
00:07:10
Speaker
So over time, that has been something that has become a bigger focus. I think now I refer to it as kind of positive masculinities to be much more inclusive.
00:07:19
Speaker
and aware of the variations of masculinity that people experience. And I'm real interested in what we call healthy boyhood too. So I've spent probably the past five years focusing more on that primarily in education settings. And you've done a tremendous amount of work in this area, in this field. And that's a big reason I wanted you on is to really talk about the research and the science that you're seeing and someone who's really in it and doing the work because something that I see a lot of out there on social media
00:07:47
Speaker
And maybe this is going around when you first started this. I don't know because I wasn't aware of it when you probably start doing this because I was a little younger then. But at least in the past few years when I've been on social media and seeing these things, there's a lot of this, I think talk of this term toxic masculinity.
00:08:03
Speaker
and a lot of this, you know, how patriarchy has impacted men and these things. And these are things that people are recognizing, and the sense I get when we talk about these things, talks about masculinity, I think it sounds similar to what you're getting at, that we kind of know what to tell men not to do, like don't be this, don't be these things, these things clearly are not helpful, these are, you know,
00:08:27
Speaker
traits that aren't really helpful to you or your community, but still, I think it still stops there, even to this day, even on social media. It's like, well, don't do this. Don't be this person. Or it flips it and say, well, do these things. Just feel more. Just it'll be kind of this quick answer of just, you know, and we've had these conversation offline a little bit of like, well, just feel more. Just do the, you know, just do the work and.
00:08:48
Speaker
I think there's still, I think there's a big, my opinion, I think there's a big ravine, so to speak, between what not to do and then like, we'll just do these things. There's like this missing bridge and link between the two. And so I still, in a way, I feel like it's still doing the kind of similar things to some men that they say, don't be like this, don't be this toxic thing, you know, don't have this trait of you. So
00:09:10
Speaker
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that when you, when you hear the word toxic masculinity, like what do you think
Reframing Toxic Masculinity as Toxin Masculinity
00:09:15
Speaker
about that? Like what, what comes to mind for everything you've been doing in all the research? Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a lot in what you kind of said. And I think in, in some ways, like what I didn't mention is, you know, I also work with, with the mental health app mental, which is the personal health app focused on men. And at our core mission is awareness of that that.
00:09:33
Speaker
there are kind of these two narratives, I think, for society that men kind of pick up, which is one is like, you know, eat your veggies kind of thing. And the other one is kind of like, feel everything, right? And there's not like a middle ground. And I think that with
00:09:47
Speaker
with mental again, we're really looking at that third way, like there's a middle ground in there too, right? And in some ways, like, well, I'm sure we'll talk about this much, much more, but, you know, men's health and to be a healthy person, right? But particularly for men in particular, it's about adaptability.
00:10:05
Speaker
and this ability to respond to a situation that is in front of you. And the reason why that is important for men is because men tend to be socialized to kind of adopt these rigid stereotypes about what it means to be a man. And I'm sure we'll go more into that around. But that's kind of a really critical thing, is that if we are thinking about
00:10:27
Speaker
how we actually want to help men or boys be healthy. A, you have to engage them and not alienate them. And I'm not so sure toxic masculinity language really does that.
00:10:42
Speaker
And I think it's also really careful to look at, like, again, what are you actually kind of saying? So I don't use the term toxic masculinity. It doesn't tend to appear in writing that I use. And actually, most academics don't use it. It actually predates positive masculinity. It's a term from the late 70s. So it is there, but it's not something that I tend to use. But when I hear that, what I think will, you know,
00:11:07
Speaker
what we're talking about often with toxic masculinity are kind of interpersonal ways in which kind of men and maybe greater society, whether you're in patriarchal society, has encouraged men to behave. And that interpersonal way leads to things like and violence and aggression and
00:11:28
Speaker
actually dominance over others as a value. And again, when we talk about that, we certainly have extremes that we can look at that are real things. And I think it's important to call things what they are. But at the same time, it's like, again, does that engage men? And is that actually like that interpersonal kind of piece in terms of whether it's
00:11:51
Speaker
between men and women or between men and other humans or between men and other men, right? Because we also know that the toxic kind of traits or toxic actions that also happen actually between men, right? But what I would say is like, when I think about men's health, or I think about kind of how we're going to help guys be healthy, you know,
00:12:10
Speaker
The reality is that it's a reason why men die five years sooner than the women in the United States, right? But it's not the only reason why. And I think when I think about it that way, like I think I've used this phrase with you before, I actually use this phrase called toxin instead of toxic. So T-O-X-I-N, toxin masculinity,
Critique of Toxic Masculinity Focus
00:12:28
Speaker
which are the small things that men pick up and the small ways that men are socialized, which impacts their health behaviors, which is directly why actually we see health disparities exist in men.
00:12:40
Speaker
And these are things where I think we also ought to be giving attention as well. So I think what ends up happening is conversation about toxic masculinity become this massive rock. And it actually overshadows kind of what I think is more helpful advice for the majority of men on how to be healthier and happier.
00:12:57
Speaker
hmm yeah because I mean the term you you use it because you see it as just yeah this big rock a barrier so men hear it and then it seems they're not really engaged is what I'm hearing is what you're seeing is not really engaging men actually make a difference or change yeah is that that yeah yeah and I think it's also like I mean if
00:13:15
Speaker
Is it interesting right i think that that we if i say to you like like. Define toxic masculinity what does that mean to you right i think you could give me a few things and say this this is what i think it means writing and. If i said with healthy masculinity mean to you you might struggle right and meaning and society would struggle like we don't have a operational definition of healthy masculinity.
00:13:38
Speaker
Right, I'm not really seeing anyone else pointing really to, okay, now what? So we know it's not good, we know it's not healthily, but okay, like you said, well, what is healthy, positive, masculine? What does it actually look like? And I think people do struggle to define it, or if they do, it's kind of convoluted, or how do we then actually, or how do we get maybe from this, quote unquote, toxic place, and how do we then walk the path to a place of healing and recovery, which is a big heart of mine too, is well, how do we,
00:14:03
Speaker
How do we help men equip them? And first, and I always say this, I think with those men who are stuck in there, and you tell me what, if this fits, but I think a piece that I see missing all the time is that we're not approaching these men with genuine curiosity and empathy and getting to know their story and why they're there. It's more of just stop it, you're bad, you're wrong, you're the problem. I mean, and I'm overgeneralizing here when people say this.
00:14:24
Speaker
Because people will say we get it, but it's like we get it, but change. It's like this quick like, get it, but like flip the switch. I mean, that's my sense, my interpretation. I'm hearing people say it. It's like we get it just, but be different, you know, just, you know, and I think we're still missing that, that middle piece of, and I, and I think maybe some of those men might even get stuck too, who are, because they're just expected just to flip on a dime. And I don't, I think it's negating some of the really, the real lived experience and the time it takes and the patience and the,
00:14:53
Speaker
empathy and the curiosity and the time it takes to actually help walk alongside them in recovery. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's like, again, like this notion of, and again, it's not to, it's not to deny that, that it's not a thing, right? Like I think, like I said before, it's important to name what things are. Right. And I think when we, you know, and I do think we look at kind of aspects of male behavior, right? Like we look at them and
00:15:26
Speaker
the majority of homicides, you know, that men are responsible, die by suicide, you know, that men engage in, they're both engaged in and are victims of violence at a higher rate. We know that men are more likely, like the main cause of spreading STDs, we know men are like the main cause of automobile accidents, like we can look at these things that are very unhealthy health behaviors. And it's important to kind of really point those things out, right? At the same time, I think
00:15:51
Speaker
we have to realize that that awareness that comes out of kind of talking about toxic masculinity as a society, right? Comes out of, again, a absolute recognition that a lot of we're talking about as power imbalance, right? And talking about real things that happen, right? But there's a way in which toxic masculinity also can become all masculinity. And I think that in the absence of that,
00:16:18
Speaker
it's very hard for a guy to kind of figure out how to have a good sense of self if it's viewed as kind of being so negative all the time, right? Meaning that like, I think in therapy, for example, I think when guys come into therapy, and they come to seek help what they're expecting,
00:16:38
Speaker
tell me what's going wrong in your life. And I'll tell you, most guys essentially hang their head down and then confess or say, let me tell you about all that stuff going wrong in my life. And we've seen research that suggests a better approach to say is, where would you like to be in your life? Think about it. If the precursor for engaging in something is like, let's just start by telling me all the things you're ashamed of.
00:17:02
Speaker
Right. And, you know, your engagement is quite low at that point. Yeah. But I mean, I think that piece around that is like figuring out like, you know, what message are we actually sending to men or actually young men in terms of how do we help them navigate then a culture to a more healthy understanding of what it means to be male. I like that. And so with that said, that as term of not liking to use it because in one hand, naming
00:17:31
Speaker
The end health is important. Like you said, like naming the reality and some of the facts in the data that we're seeing that there's some truths and realities to this. And at the same time, knowing that how that term can be used and not really make a change, but just look at just
Defining Healthy, Positive Masculinity
00:17:47
Speaker
the negativity of it and how i think it can maybe be blanketed as all masculinity and in a way it's kind of a i feel like it's a slippery slope word in a way kind of like a it's too sticky and so with that said if we were to pivot what what do we do like we were pivot over to what the work you've been doing and have been seeing that okay that
00:18:07
Speaker
This is not really that helpful a word of engagement, not really helping pave the way and also society at large doesn't really have an answer for these men other than just pointing out, you know, how bad have you been, you know, that first example he gave, tell me your how you failed type of a thing and what's broken.
00:18:24
Speaker
So what would you do if you're going to flip the light? What does Matt see as laying out and working with, one, how do we engage men more effectively? Two, well, what is actually healthy, positive masculinity? How do we actually begin to identify this so we can actually have a goal, a road map, a place to head toward, like a destination so we have an idea of what we're actually wanting to achieve?
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's like, those are two very big questions, you know, but I think as a, you know, someone who works with people who are helpers, right? I think, you know, what we, what I look at around that is like, again, do you understand kind of men or males, boys, those identify as male, like, do you have an understanding or maybe an appreciation of their experience, right? And are you able to kind of adapt in a way, adapt, you know, your, your service delivery in a way,
00:19:22
Speaker
where they are, as opposed to bringing them over to where we are. Like, you know, I'm, I trained therapists, I live in the world of emotions, right? And, and, and I think emotions are great, right? But I also know that that is not the majority of people, right? And, and that expressing emotions, you know, can be viewed as shameful, or it can be viewed as kind of a very scary thing for many people. So if we're, if we're just selling therapy as a place where you're going to share emotions,
00:19:50
Speaker
to say or again this notion here that this recognition that guys do have emotions and actually guys share emotions in lots of ways.
00:19:59
Speaker
it just may not be the preferred way that the helping professions tend to ask for, right? So more about a little bit about that, like give an example. Sure. I think in some ways helping professions privilege this notion of sharing emotions in the moment. So it's actually feeling them in the moment. So if you're working with me, it's me actually like seeing my tears, like coming out of my eyes or seeing that listening kind of in the performative kind of kind of way.
00:20:25
Speaker
But the reality is that I can express emotions to you in a lot of different ways. I can express emotion in my body, right? So I can have like a somatic experience happening within my body in which I'm feeling things within. I can express kind of my emotions through movement. I can express my emotions through writing, right? I can write things down, express it too. And so this notion of kind of how we express, right, is important when we think about guys, because I think that a lot of men, you know,
00:20:52
Speaker
And again, I think boys don't mail adolescents to like, you know, our society doesn't necessarily teach them or show them in a way that expressing emotions is helpful. Right. I think what we wonder kind of why is it that that adult men, for example, don't want to express certain certain tender emotions. Sometimes it's because they don't see the point.
00:21:13
Speaker
you know, they've been raised in a way because what we do know about emotionality is that expressing emotions are really helpful when they're validated back, right? So I know validated back is a very therapist kind of term, but this is important for parents, like really important for parents to understand is that when your child expresses an emotion, like what you need to do in that moment is essentially mirror it back, right? You know, and say you're feeling this or you're feeling sad because it's kind of happened.
00:21:42
Speaker
or if what's called for with a child is a hug, it's a real hug that has tenderness with it, right? What's not called for is when someone feels something and they're told don't feel that way, or you shouldn't feel that way, or a lot of the messages that boys learn is essentially being tough, or kind of, you know,
00:22:01
Speaker
I remember as a kid, feeling feelings and be told to walk it off, right? Like, you know, be tough and walk it off is not validation. Right. You know, and for young, you know, again, if what you've learned is that is what you learned is that when I express emotions and they're not built that it back to me, what I learned essentially is that I shouldn't be expressing these. And I learned to feel shame for expressing my emotions. And I think that the reality is, is that's a lot of guys don't understand. Like, again, it's, you know, it's really clear here too, is that, you know,
00:22:31
Speaker
boys, adolescents, and adult men have the same capacity to express emotions in girls and adolescent girls and women. So it's not a capacity. It's not a biological difference that men can express their emotions.
00:22:44
Speaker
But emotions are viewed as a contextual piece in which there's a context in which they occur. And so again, a lot of men, when it comes to emotionality, if they think, if I go to therapy and have to express my emotions, why would I want to do that? I just feel worse. Yeah, I just feel worse. And that's often what is told to them maybe with someone who maybe isn't as sensitive to the journey of understanding that. It's like, well, we just need to feel and try to pull it. And so that could be, and what I'm positing and some stuff I'm looking into my own personal research and doing things is,
00:23:13
Speaker
seeing I think a lot of men are stuck in a kind of sort of fight or flight or dorsal vagal shutdown state when they get asked about emotions. They just go into survival mode by getting aggressive or defensive or shutting down because that's what they did or what they had to do when they had to walk it off. I had to numb that. I had to disassociate.
00:23:29
Speaker
how to numb, how to become angry or aggressive or fight back, right? I mean, so they learn to these ways of coping. And so when they're asked to feel emotions, I think their nervous system just kicks on. I'm like, that's a threat. Why would I do that? It's a waste of time. It's useless. Nothing good happens. Let me avoid this. And so we can keep pushing them to share, share, share, share, share emotions. And they're just gonna keep doing this because why would I go there?
00:23:50
Speaker
I've already done that. I've been there done that numerous times and it doesn't work out for me. And so what are some things you found helpful with engaging men in therapy? Because if we're just talking, you know, as the clinicians or even, you know, men listening to this podcast, if you've been to therapy and you're not ready in that place, you know, you probably felt that too. So what, how can we as clinicians or what's some ways they can look, like how can we reach them more effectively if they're not in the space yet to just feel and you kind of laid out some other ways that men are expressing it through movement, writing,
00:24:17
Speaker
What are some things that you found successful practically speaking? And let me just also make a caveat here is that again, and there are many, many men who have no problem feeling whatsoever and have no problem expressing their emotions. And it's great. And, you know, but I think in general as society, right, there is to be an element around restrictive emotionality for men.
00:24:37
Speaker
So, again, and I think that that is, it is like a, it's a mist on society that floats down and before adults even realize it, they have on, you know, unchecked biases around kind of the way we think boys and girls and so on, so supposed to behave.
00:24:53
Speaker
through our institutions and through our different ways, these subtle messages come out, right? And it has ramifications, right? It has ramifications for kind of how we raise young men. So, but to your other point in terms of how we engage, I think one thing to be aware of is that, you know, I think one thing you're thinking about when you work with men in a clinical setting is you're trying to get them to come back.
00:25:14
Speaker
So, one of the goals of your first session is to get into session 2. Seriously, and in doing so, that means you may have to work a little harder to hook them in. So, it's not uncommon that the therapist might self-disclose a bit more in that first session to engage. And again, how you self-disclose is more about normalizing kind of what is happening there.
00:25:35
Speaker
but there's a bit of a personality kind of component in which you might do a bit more chitchat as a way to kind of loosen some of that initial anxiety. I think good therapy tends to be about making a good relationship and being very clear about the tasks and the goals as well. So talk to the male kind of client, understand kind of why he's there.
00:25:57
Speaker
help understand kind of if he works with you what the outcome could possibly be and give him something to hold on to. Like we always want to engage hope around that too, but help understand that coming back could lead to some good things, right? But there's ways in which I think we, as therapists, I think you might have to lean a bit more into the client than usual, right? Because it may be that a lot of clients who have been there for the first time have some expectations in terms of how they think therapy is supposed to be. And in general, that maybe it's not for them.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah, I see a lot from other my personally as well as at working with hearing the stories from the clinicians, especially when they come in with a couple, right? It's often a demand, you know, obviously, and I know the typically the female partner has very valid reasons as to why they're there, right? I'm generalizing this, right? This is not every man, like you said, but generally,
00:26:43
Speaker
and they're coming in kind of as a there's been some type of you have to do this otherwise here's the ramifications and so they're coming in a lot of times reluctantly because it's like why do I want to lose this I'm gonna come in and so they're already on the defensive and then if we don't engage them I could see like why would I do this because I think a lot of those men I've seen they come in already with an expectation or preconceived notion that
00:27:03
Speaker
you're just going to want to make me to quote-unquote feel, you're just going to gang up on me, you know, essentially. And I've heard that said numerous times. I feel like I'm going to be ganged up on. I'm not going to actually be heard. Why would I do that? It seems pointless. And I think part of it could be as clinicians we, and I'm putting myself in that category as clinicians as a whole that we might need to grow a bit and reaching in with where they are, meeting them where they are at. And I see that, absolutely.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think that most people when they seek help, you know, what they're, when they arrive, what they're asking themselves is, is this a place for me? Right? Like, is this a place for me? And there are a lot of reasons and a lot of things that guys may see that kind of says, no, like this isn't a place for me, you know? And part of it is, of course, there is a stigma and there is a way in which kind of therapy can be viewed as a weakness or as a failure for guys, right? That they couldn't handle it on their own.
00:27:56
Speaker
they have that other kind of roots. So therapy may not be like the number one choice that guys kind of have. That being said, like, I think when guys engage in therapy, a lot of them love it. Once they get hooked, some guys will never leave, you know, and there's something about that that I think that if you engage in a
00:28:19
Speaker
then maybe they're more willing to engage. And so when things I think we've talked before is like, you know, engaging in story and engaging in narrative, understanding kind of what he, because I think guys have a lot of stories that don't get told. They edit themselves a lot. And they particularly edit the kind of tender stories around that because society doesn't encourage those stories to be told.
00:28:40
Speaker
Yeah. Or they're not even asked. Like you said, they're not, not even encouraged to just play it, you know, not even asked. And we have a mutual friend that just told me this and he said, you know, he recently had a baby and you know, he said in their postpartum check, just in this reality, I have other friends have had babies recently. They're not even asked how they're doing, how they're doing in the postpartum checkup.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's just not even on the grid or framework. And what we know is, you know, one out of 10 men experience postpartum depression. But it's clearly in the evident and the data and the research that we're seeing. We actually have a few mutual friends that know this, that are doing research in this field. And I have friends that I'm like, did you get asked? We now ask each other, were you asked? No, I wasn't. It's just, so there's almost like an absence. It's like, I think it's path like farther back than encouragement. It's just, it's just not even, it's non-existent.
00:29:27
Speaker
Whether you almost lost your wife in an emergency birth, you know, almost lost your kid or, you know, your baby's in the NICU or they're not, they're not asked how they're doing.
00:29:35
Speaker
Now every now and then, I'm saying most of the time they're not, but every now and then there's probably someone who's got their head on understands and say, I need to check on dad, but that is definitely not the norm to this day. And those stigmas to this day, I work with my coming to my office. Those things are still very much present for them. What we want to do is get them help way earlier, you know, way before that point, but now they're coming in because of all those stigmas and barriers and
00:30:00
Speaker
not encouraged to share these stories or not even close to being asked or shamed for doing it that they come in usually in these big crisis moments and that's hard. It's harder. So yeah, I mean I think part of it is if we think about just the whole kind of range of parenthood like that whole kind of kind of journey like
00:30:18
Speaker
even before birth, right? Like, I think that we know that we're talking about fertility, where you're talking about miscarriage, you know, and in that sense, like, I think, expectant fathers, right, or fathers who want to be, you know, often don't have a much of a
00:30:35
Speaker
outlet in terms of how to express their kind of feelings in terms of how they're managing that. And as someone who's been through that before myself with my children, I found myself very isolated too. And one thing I just kind of figured out at some point was like, I'm just gonna start talking about it. And as I began to talk about it with some of my other friends, I realized, oh, they had those experiences too. But it took like a very conscious decision for me to kind of talk about it and what I was going through to get support around that. And I think, you know,
00:31:05
Speaker
I think there is an epidemic of when we don't include men in that process or see them, it also gives them an excuse to not be a part of it. And that not showing up behavior that a lot of kind of to be fathers and fathers experience as well, I think could also
00:31:23
Speaker
curved a bit if they were invited in more to that process and made to feel a part of it with that responsibility, too. And I think part of what happens when you end up getting this bigger kind of struggle that kind of happens, which is
00:31:35
Speaker
you know, if men are not noticed as much or dads aren't noticed as much in that process, you know, we also realize that what kicks in sometimes is for a lot of men, it's feelings of responsibility and being a provider. So work in providing then takes a certain type of, of, of a priority in one's life. We know that there's a lot of good things that happen to men when they become dads, right?
00:31:59
Speaker
But other things kind of happen as they also begin to lose a lot of their friends in social support networks. And so we begin to see this kind of path in which men become to be disengaged from themselves and others. So I think there's a lot in that in terms of how, and we're seeing changes in that. I think we're seeing generational changes. And I think for sure the life that my dad experienced when he had me is different than the life that I had when I had my son. And we know that things like stay-at-home
00:32:29
Speaker
fathers, like those are kind of each year kind of going up and we're, you know, but the ways in which we engage in that process around kind of being a dad. Again, there's some opportunities in there.
00:32:40
Speaker
And I think for parents in general, of course, you know, expectations have never been higher for parents to be everything, you know, in a very complicated world. But I think it is like, I think the work you're doing and just giving voice for, for dads about like, you know, you have reactions and you have emotional reactions here and you have perspectives and you have experiences and you have stories that are valid. It's critical. Yeah. Thank you. And now for a short break.
00:33:07
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to BuyMeACoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:33:24
Speaker
And all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, into continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks. And let's get back to the show and.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think it is critical which is why I'm doing it and we had some infertility issues too along the way and I remember talking about it for the first time and didn't talk about it for a long time. Even though I was a trained clinician at the time, I think it was just finished grad school, took us six years to get pregnant and I mean, finally I'm our first kid.
00:33:56
Speaker
But I remember that first few years, I just don't talk, I mean, I was a clinician. Even I, I think, got into some of that, like, stuff in my own of just keep, just keep going, like, just avoid it, just, you know, I'll deal with it later. And then I remember talking about it and realized, actually, this is more common than it's, than you think, but it can be so isolating. I think a lot of men just don't and they just stay, like you said, they stay isolated and then
00:34:16
Speaker
These things just naturally begin to get them farther and farther away from, I think, community and relationship, which is what a lot of men need, is relationship and community and support and encouragement. And as well as being challenged in a way that's like an effect, like a healthy challenge, right? That I think of a good coach, right, who's challenging to become better and push, not shaming or not that type of coach who's tearing you down, but kind of in a way that's speaking to the truth of who you are, but pushing you.
00:34:40
Speaker
You know, and I think a lot of men also react really well to that, that kind of push. They could rise to the occasion and really, really do well. Um, I think that's like, you know, just in some of the work I'm doing now, it's like that voice is I would call empathic firmness. Like in a way like that's the, you know, that's the coach everyone, everyone kind of wish they had like, you know, I'm, I'm
00:35:02
Speaker
I'm watching Friday Night Lights with my daughter, you know, which is like, but that coach here, Eric Taylor, right? Is empathic firmness, right? Yeah, he is. And it's a, and that's a beautiful thing to kind of see. And I think that in some ways, like a good coach for so many men is a surrogate father, right? Totally, totally. Right. Yeah. Cause that's kind of what they're looking for in a dad in a way. Is that kind of empathic for that connection, but firm, you know, and challenge. Yeah. Yeah. And there's elements around that. I mean, I think like one of the things
00:35:31
Speaker
even talking about kind of kind of fathers too is like, you know, being a father exists in a society which has a script, right? There's notions in terms of kind of roles people are supposed to kind of play. And I think when, you know, fathers again, or men in general, like one of the things we know is that they tend to at times not understand what their needs are.
00:35:53
Speaker
Or are they uncertain if they can express their kind of needs? They're more likely to kind of, you know, essentially express who they are by doing things for their people, right? And they're encouraged to kind of mask weakness, right? So we wonder what happens to dads, again, who maybe aren't having a great experience psychologically, or really struggling with kind of being a new parent, or maybe struggling with being a parent for a second time, or third time, or fourth time.
00:36:17
Speaker
in a way you treated by performing, by giving and doing for other people, right? What is not happening is a connection to which kind of what's happening for you is being shared outwardly. And I think that's an absolute struggle.
00:36:33
Speaker
Well, I think that, like you said earlier, it might be that struggling and suffering and silence, right? It's to keep it in and they keep it contained and compartmentalize. And I've worked with a lot of men that they come in finally and they just can't keep it contained anymore. They've been keeping it in for years, years, years and then finally, just like it breaks. And they suffer alone in silence because again, they don't, it goes back to that, just the narrative and kind of what the expectations and what masculinity should look like. I mean, it's interesting that some of the data suggests that, again, regardless of
00:37:03
Speaker
the economic situation, right? So regardless if one has a partner, and if the partner is the breadwinner, or in terms of or brings one more money, regardless of the actual situation on the ground, men still find incredible value in being being a good provider, right? Regardless, again, like regardless of the situation, because then the reality is, is that if you're in a couple, most couples are dual income at some capacity.
00:37:28
Speaker
at this point. And I think, and what makes that really interesting is that providing becomes, again, that's a script, right? And what does society tell men in general, right? Be a provider, right? To not show emotions, to not, not show affection between men. And essentially that anger is, is a funnel of emotion, right? So anger and aggression are okay. And so we absolutely know that that is the kind of overarching kind of script. We also know that most men don't subscribe to it.
00:37:58
Speaker
Okay, so like, and again, that gets into this piece around like, when we think of what masculinity is, it's actually masculinities, right? It's IES, or multiple forms of what it means to be a man. But the assumption is, even most guys who don't subscribe to it, they believe that's what they ought to be, you know, so like, I don't consider myself a terribly traditional man, right?
00:38:18
Speaker
but I do feel certain twinges when I feel like I violated a code in terms of how many are supposed to be, even though I know it's not me. Right. Because that's kind of like this thing that's kind of in the background due to society, what you've been taught is like, here's the code and this is what you must fall on, even though you know you follow, you know, maybe that it's a little broader. Yeah. Then as soon as you cross one of those lines, like, oh, it's an automatic like, need your... Exactly. Yeah.
00:38:44
Speaker
Exactly. And so we know we asked this question a while ago, but this notion of what does it mean to be healthy?
Adaptability in Healthy Masculinity
00:38:51
Speaker
What we really know is that healthy is adaptability. And I think this is actually kind of important because I think there's lots of misunderstandings about elemental kind of research that scholars do on masculinity, which is that it's not unhealthy to be a traditional man. It's unhealthy to be traditional in a rigid way though.
00:39:14
Speaker
Right in the same sense that in some ways most rigidity is unhealthy okay and so and the data here is actually quite clear like the data that exists there's 45 plus years of research that we know
00:39:28
Speaker
that generally speaking, you know, men who reject rigid conceptualization, so masculinity, but it's kind of steeped in sex and ideologies are healthier in nearly every way than men who endorse those kinds of beliefs, right? And the data is really clear about that. So again, but it's, it's because these are operational definitions, sometimes that academics kind of use, it gets translated incorrectly, you know, but, but when I think about that, like as a parent, again,
00:39:55
Speaker
adaptability. What adaptability means is that essentially you respond to what the situation needs. So if the situation is that I'm feeling unhappy or I'm hurt by something, then the adaptive piece is to share the emotion, for example. Or if the reality is as I'm in
00:40:11
Speaker
trouble and I need some assistance, I ask for help. Right. This would be not, in that example, a rigidness, traditional masculinity, because traditional masculinity is not bad. I think that's a, I think for a lot of the social media stuff out there, they're going to gasp at that, I think. Like what? Traditional, I mean, I'm almost imagining the gas happening. Well, I mean, just I'll say, you know why? Because it's repeated consistently.
00:40:36
Speaker
It was repeated twice last week in New York Times Magazine and it was a miss citation. They didn't even cite the right article, but on top of that, but it's actually a misunderstanding that people kind of have and it's repeated again and again and again, right? And it's a way of actually creating a polarized notion of kind of like the left and the right.
00:41:00
Speaker
around the way that men should be. It actually mirrors political ideology. Ryan McDermott, who is a psychologist at University of South Alabama, has done research on this, and he can show you how that plays out. I know we're off tangent here a little bit, but what happens when we have conversations? Then when our conversations around like masculinities, for example, or healthy masculinities, or what does it mean to be a man,
00:41:27
Speaker
when they begin to mirror the same arguments for having a larger society about the left and the right and liberal and conservative and this or that, the same outcomes occur, which leads to a stalemate. But at the end of the day, I don't care if you're red or blue or conservative or liberal or whatever, there are some things that we can't agree on.
00:41:49
Speaker
Right. And we can agree that we would like men to be healthier. We would like men to not die by suicide at such an incredible ratio. Right. Right. And we would like men to be less engaged in violence in terms of committing it and being victims. Right. And if you can't agree on that, then something is really wrong.
00:42:06
Speaker
Right. No, I agree. Yeah. And it's a great place to start on. This is what we agree on as healthier men. As we have healthier men in our society and we help them, that helps all of society. That helps women, children, everything. You know, ages, ethnicities, gender, everything, right? Because then we're all helping each other.
00:42:24
Speaker
And so going back to that, I think that's something that people are going to guess. And it's interesting that you say that because you know, that's the reason why you want is because you're in the research, reading the research and you can see, wow, this is being misrepresented and miss cited and not even the right article, but it's, but you're seeing repeated in big magazines and articles of saying these things. And that's, I think something that's hard because the average reader seeing these things, they just, they see it, right? They see the headline, they see these things. And so it becomes just part of,
00:42:50
Speaker
you know language used and how we make these claims but i think that that word you said makes a lot of sense adaptability and that traditional masculinity is good as long as it's adaptable and not rigid because rigid in that first the examples you gave if what is the situation call for it if it calls for expressing emotion well rigid masculinity would be this like that what we think of
00:43:12
Speaker
No, we're going to shut that down and shame it or don't cry. You know, that thing I said, well, I'm not going to feel it. Or if it calls for a hug, right? And like, well, you're not getting a hug, right? If I'm that rigid, but if I'm adaptable of saying, well, actually, what does this really need? Oh, it needs emotional expression, needs a hug, needs validation, needs something else. Yeah, it even comes down to this things like, like when we think about it, about help seeking, for example.
00:43:34
Speaker
Right? Health seeking isn't just going to be a therapist, right? It can be something, it can start with something as simple as just asking for freaking directions at the gas station, right? But it also goes to things like going to the doctor, doing a regular checkup. I mean, like I talked to a lot of my friends who will say like, gosh, I wish my dad would just go to the doctor. We can't get him to go to the doctor, right? And data suggests like men are, they're less likely to have health insurance, they're less likely to go to the doctor.
00:44:04
Speaker
I know in my class, part of the class, I read this big list of things that are health behaviors. When it comes to help-seeking, it's things like that. Help-seeking is going for checkups and going for exams and actually treating yourself when you're sick. That rigidity, again, is to not ask for help.
00:44:25
Speaker
Right. And that would fall into the unhealthy kind of the socialization pieces of why men like men look like this, right? Do you ask for help? Don't have emotions, right? That's the thing that we were taught. And so not asking for help again, because it's showing weakness, showing that you're vulnerable, showing that you're not strong, showing that you're not all these things. That's the thing that you feel that like gut check of like, Oh, wait, did I do that?
00:44:46
Speaker
because it's in me too sometimes because I had that socialization piece too on the sports field growing up with kids in my class. Now I had also some good representations of men not doing that to me who were very empathetic and caring and patient and all these things.
00:45:02
Speaker
That other stuff was very much true. And I remember asking myself, did I say this? Should I say this? Am I going to get made fun of? You know, because I remember growing up, it's like, is it safe to say this here? No, because I said the last time and those kids, so you learn to adapt. Well, you learn to become rigid because that's how you survive in a way. I think it forces you to become this, to survive. Yeah, the notion here is that like, this is not my terminology, it's other people. Essentially, gender can become a straitjacket for men. Essentially, gender becomes a straitjacket because
00:45:32
Speaker
you engage in what's called gender role conflict, which is, okay, so gender role conflict is by James O'Neill, University of Connecticut. It's the most researched concept in psychology and masculinity. So at this point, probably 300 plus studies. And what gender role conflict essentially says is that men learn at a young age that when they violate gender expectations, that there's a cost, right? So men learn to overconform.
00:45:57
Speaker
overconform to not cross those lines. But the reality, of course, is that you can't. What I've learned is that you don't show emotions or tender emotions. I always try to clarify that because anger is an emotion, and a lot of guys have no problem expressing anger. Sure, because it's not tender. I'm asking something else. But if I learn I'm not allowed to cry, for example, and when I cry, I'm teased.
00:46:26
Speaker
So I'm never going to cry. That's what I say. Well, guess what? You're human. Human beings cry because when the situation arrives, you engage in what's called gender role conflict, in which you don't line up with the expectation. And the data is really clear that men who are high in general conflict do experience the things such as depression, anxiety, and addiction, and across the board, like all the dark side masculinity stuff. And that being said, that's what I learned
00:46:56
Speaker
20-some years ago. I learned all about that stuff and which also led me to want to learn about more healthy things. But you also have to understand kind of that piece too. You have to understand kind of why are men drawn to over-interforming and why does gender use like a straitjacket in that way. Yeah, it's a good image and I think, you know, it's a good image. It makes sense. You think about it. Yeah, I would say a lot of men, if I use that, if I said that, that I'm thinking of, they'd probably say, yes, yeah.
00:47:23
Speaker
Feels like that, in a way. Or, you know, it's like a death trap, right? I've heard other things said by them and, you know, dare not do that, you know? You're just then asking for excommunication or punishment or something to the effect or more suffering, more pain. Why would I want that? That doesn't sound fine to me.
00:47:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard, it's hard because I think we're still seeing it. We're still seeing this stuff passed around. I mean, I didn't realize that I wasn't looking at the New York Times, but it's interesting that, wow, these things are being tossed around to this day. And so I think we're still seeing all the conflicting message in society that I think you see a lot of people, men that have influence saying, hey, get therapy, it's okay. And I think that's huge, I would say, men of influence and power. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, again, even why it's in the news is because
00:48:08
Speaker
Gender is very political and masculinity is very political and we're in campaign season and essentially kind of showing one's toughness and showing again for the majority of candidates who are male.
00:48:22
Speaker
What they're going to show is kind of a more stoic, very traditional type of masculinity, right? And some of you have written books on it that have actually very little to do with science, but they present a blueprint. This is how men should be. The reality is, is that anytime you create a blueprint and the blueprint is, you know, essentially, let me tell you how men are supposed to be, it's going to be wrong because, because men aren't supposed to be anything. You know, you know, what men are supposed to be is human.
00:48:51
Speaker
And it doesn't mean, I don't mean that you shouldn't be proud of being a man because I think there's something very beautiful about having kind of
00:49:00
Speaker
of male pride in a way that is inclusive and not transgressive. And I think you should have a healthy idea of what it means to be a man because of your identity, if that's an important part of your identity. Again, this is where the toxic piece comes in too. It's like if masculinity is toxic, then it's hard to have any type of pride in being a good father or being a good man.
00:49:24
Speaker
or you know and i think it's a wrong message right because it's not the message i think a lot of men experience because for a lot of men like being a guy is important right and a lot of them and i know being a guy isn't about getting over and other people you know it's about being a good person it's about being being values driven so having having purpose in one's life right.
00:49:45
Speaker
And I think even when I think about the work that we're doing at Mental, we're really trying to think about that. That's part of the third way too, the middle way, is to understand values and purpose and live with them. Live with honor and integrity and know who you are.
00:50:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think the third way is needed to keep paving the way and creating space for that and I like how you put it that there's masculine at ease and forming to some of the traditional norm is good as long as it's adaptable within what's needed in the context whether it's at work or with your family or your kid or your partner or
00:50:20
Speaker
your body, whatever it is. Yeah, I think that's going to zing some people, but I think you're right because you could have a spectrum of masculinities, right? And so because of that, we have to allow some of those traditional norms of looking at the good of some of these more traditional traits that they're not bad, they're not evil, you know, they're not wrong. But if they're rigid, they're going to lead to problems.
00:50:44
Speaker
if they're adaptable, they'll lead to probably life and actually good models, right? A model of what a masculinity could look like where maybe someone, another masculinity expression could be a little different, right? Maybe who's a little more emotional, emotionally driven. Absolutely. And that's still masculine, right? It's like, that's still masculine. But there's a variance between these two.
00:51:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that there are different examples out there, but Terry Crews, for example, Terry Crews is great, and people would consider him probably be pretty masculine, whatever that means. He's also pretty emotional, also pretty big, and he's pretty tough, he has a lot of muscles, but he's also a great example of an adaptive person. He is who he is. Yes, he is. He is who he is. He is who he is, and I think there's something about what I mean by that is
00:51:35
Speaker
Part of the pillar of actually kind of masculinity, like what is positive masculinity, and this is some work that I've done, but particularly my colleagues in Australia at Brighton Grammar have done, is recognizing that positive masculinity is being connected. That's just a given. We know that the essence of essentially being healthy is being connected to other people.
00:52:01
Speaker
being motivated to having a purpose in terms of kind of what you're doing, which is kind of value driven. And it's being authentic and understanding who you are. Right. And if you if you know who you are and you can you can be authentic, right, then your behavior is going to match
00:52:15
Speaker
kind of what the situation needs, right? Because you don't actually have those barriers kind of saying, well, I better act this way because people are watching. Yeah. I'm thinking where I want to go. We've been all over the place, I know. I know. I know it's been good. I think it's such a big conversation and there's so many places that I want to go of like, well, I want to know more about that. I want to know about that. I want to talk more about adaptability because that's a great term.
00:52:41
Speaker
So even like I'll give an example, like we look at kind of work and employment right now and we look at at the last recession, for example, and we look at kind of looking at men of middle age, right?
00:52:54
Speaker
We know that there are vocations out there, for example, that need men, right? This is what Richard Reif called the heel professions, but most people would just say like teaching, nursing, counseling, actually. A variety of these professions have been trying to recruit male nurses and counselors and teachers for decades, mostly on, right? And so, and we look at kind of the last recession, we know that people who were hit the hardest were actually middle aged men.
00:53:22
Speaker
But it wasn't because there weren't jobs out there for them. Part of it was this inability to adapt to jobs that were maybe outside one's purview as being appropriate. Adaptability is this trait of recognizing that you can be flexible. Even with parents, I think sometimes the question I would say is it's not always like, what are you feeling, but what are you experiencing right now? You see your child and something's happening and
00:53:50
Speaker
You know, as a counselor, I would want to say like, oh, how are you feeling? Right. But I might just say, hey, what are you experiencing? What are you aware of? Right. Because it's a recognition of kind of this is what you're aware of. And then what does the situation require?
00:54:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's broadening it, expanding the view a bit from just an emotion to the experience, right? Because the experience could be emotion, it could be bodily experience, it could be a mental experience. It could be all the above that they're aware of. It's allowing space, it sounds like, for these different ways of experiencing, I can't think of a word, but it allows space. Yeah, I mean, it's about options, right? But it's this notion about having this flexibility to do what a situation requires, right? So the parallel would be, of course,
00:54:31
Speaker
The metaphor that's used often is this notion that if all you have is hammer, all your problems are nails. And the reality is there's lots for their tools out there. But again, if all you have is a hammer, then everything gets smashed regardless if it requires that. And sometimes nuances neither, or screwdrivers needed, or standing is needed. So we just want to work on some aspects of flexibility. And so rigid thinking has a bit to do with expectations in terms of
00:55:04
Speaker
And as parents, part of it is just recognizing that, again, if you're a parent of a boy or an adolescent, that your children understand this. They feel that pressure around them. And what society is saying in terms of how they're supposed to be. One thing to be aware of is that as parents, there's something about being an intentional parent.
00:55:26
Speaker
Right? And what I've said to other groups of four is like, whether you like it or not, society is going to have its say, right? So if society is going to have its say, you might as well have yours too. Right? Society is going to create, it's going to shape your child into a certain type of way. And unless you offer a counter narrative, right, or a counter experience, you know, society is honestly better equipped.
00:55:51
Speaker
I mean, social media is way more supercharged than either of us, right? The algorithms to kind of shape behavior is stronger than most things out there. It's hard to compete with, yeah. Right. And if so, if you don't have a counter narrative to offer to your son, you know, and a nice thing about the counter narrative that parents offer is usually it can come from a safe place.
00:56:12
Speaker
You know, and I think that's part of that counter narrative. It's about adaptability. You don't have to be this way. Right. Right. And I think it's going to come for some of the men that we work with or that I see is helping them heal a bit so they can provide that counter narrative to their kids. Cause if they're stuck in their, if they're still stuck in their rigid view of masculinity and maybe that's a better, better, you know, I've used the word unhealthy or I've said immature masculinity. I've said it, but cause I also don't like the word toxic, but so I've used unhealthy, immature type of a way.
00:56:40
Speaker
But I like the idea of rigid masking, I think it's a good use of making, which makes sense because if he's still stuck there, this dad I'm working with, then it's going to be hard for him, I think to really help his son or his daughter, really any of his kids, how to have a good healthy kind of balance of their masculinities or femininities, I guess it would translate to femininities too, I would assume with that word masculinities. And so helping him heal from some of his trauma and woundingining around it and providing safe space we can.
00:57:08
Speaker
getting to know him and his story as to why he's defended himself for this long, which in turn as he heals, he'll be able to give that healed version to his kids for the next generation. My heart is to help. If I could help those dads help their kids and then it's the trickle down effect of generational stuff. If we can help one home, we could help five homes, 10 homes, 20, 100 homes. Man, think of all the kids that you're impacting and then 20, 30, 40 years from now, it's different.
00:57:34
Speaker
I mean, to think about it with parents, but fathers in particular, it's like, you know, you either parent the way you were parented or your parent in opposition to the way you were parented. Right. But regardless, most parents don't get a lot of actual training. No, they don't. Right. So, you know, she may say things like, I don't want to be like my dad. So, or I want to be just like my dad. Right. But even regardless of those two, you know, without some type of training,
00:58:02
Speaker
going to be more like your dad, you know, and essentially, that's the blueprint that you kind of have, right. And I think what you do what others do in the work is like, provide some guidance, right, in terms of how you can actually enact kind of the type of parent you want to be, right. I mean, how to learn kind of to do things a bit differently. But you're right, it's hard when it's hard to teach your child skills that you don't have yourself.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah. Cause you're going to do what you know. Um, that's just how we work. We're going to, especially when, especially when we're stressed out or tired, we got to get somewhere. You're going to, you're going to fall back on your skillset, whatever that skillset might be. Um, I mean, a great example is actually is like emotional regulation, right? Like
00:58:41
Speaker
How do you teach emotional regulation when you can't do it yourself? Well, you'll teach something probably yelling or frustration or anger or shutting down or numbing and so you're gonna you are teaching something but then you go to what am I teaching and modeling here while modeling this is what you do with emotion as you regulate by yelling screaming, you know hitting something throwing something walking away numbing, you know, whatever and
00:59:03
Speaker
So we're always teaching. And I think too, some of these guys get stuck in shame because they realize, oh, I'm doing what my dad did. For some, I'm doing what my dad did and that can make them spirals. Like, no, I'm doing the very thing I thought I would never do. And now I'm doing the thing that I'm doing. And then, yeah, well, we can, there's so much stuff I want to talk about, but I'm aware of the time and I'm sure people are, this is a long episode. I'm going to have you on again. Well, I'm just saying this because, you know, you're going to be. And I want to put that out there because we need more research and I would love to dive more deeply into the research and I think understanding and getting good information out there to help men.
00:59:33
Speaker
being adaptable and so with that said with really this whole conversation of talking about kind of your work your expertise your heart your passion talking about positive masculinity and or masculinities and Really this I think really important concept of adaptability which I can I feel like talk about for 10 more hours and
00:59:54
Speaker
and this idea of this middle ground and everything we kind of talked about tonight, if you were to kind of wrap it up and kind of give an encouragement to both men as well as maybe their partners, women, the moms in their life, what would we say to kind of help further maybe some of the healing? What can we do about that?
The Middle Ground of Masculinity
01:00:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we covered like a lot of ground tonight. And I think the reality is, is that, you know, unless you're listening to podcasts like this all the time, or unless you're a gender studies major, or unless you've been in a men's group, probably, right, most guys have not sat around and talked about what it means to be a man. It's not a common conversation that happens in school. It's not one that happens in the locker rooms.
01:00:36
Speaker
you know, men figure out how to what it means to be a man by having it done to them or by acting it out. Right. And so there often is a lot of confusion about this topic. Right. So like, I can critique things I see or articles I read or whatnot. But I also realized that it's a really complicated subject. And even when I get interviewed, like I, I refuse to enter to give someone like a line, right, or give them two minutes, because I realized if you really want to talk about
01:01:03
Speaker
of masculinity is or talk about mental health, it's got to be a bigger conversation because you have to understand context, right? And so it is a learning process for everyone, right? Because I think here's the thing, part of kind of oppression, right? And part of kind of this notion of kind of patriarchy, right? And in some ways male oppression, right? And male privilege
01:01:26
Speaker
is essentially this way in which it makes people not look at it. So there's power in essentially not critiquing men. So one reason why toxic masculinity takes off and has such a strong voice is because that's really loud to get through the fog. And so again, that's a privilege for men to not essentially have masculinity or to have themselves look at it or not even have guys think about what it means to be a man.
01:01:57
Speaker
But the reality is, is that any type of type of oppression, right? Also, like, there's a duality to it, right? It's both inter and intra. So the same things that give men power are the same things that actually kill them, right? So the same things that give men power, such as aggression, anger, and violence, right?
01:02:17
Speaker
and to not ask for help and to be independent and things like this. Are they exact same things that lead to health behaviors that lead to men dying early? So the takeaway that I think, which I'm actually getting to now. No, it's good. I think the context is so key. It is such a big topic. There's a lot we have to talk about and so much we still haven't yet because it really requires a lot. You're right.
01:02:39
Speaker
It requires a lot. And I think even like when you're in my classes, too, it's like, I tend to talk really broad first. And I think if you understand the broader piece, then the micro stuff makes a lot more sense. Right. But again, the reality is, most people don't take a nuanced approach. Right. Another thing here, too, we all have biases. Like we all have biases about gender. Right. I mean, someone's kind of, you know, the
01:03:09
Speaker
male or female? That's the first thing you see when you see someone, you know, and now it may be, are they male?
01:03:15
Speaker
Are they female? Are they non-binary? But non-binary is not coming up fast for most people. It's actually male or female. And then everything else loads on top of that. Then you see height and weight and age and sex and race and ethnicity and all kinds of things. But gender is an organizing principle in society. And it is embedded. And in some ways, our ideas are rigid. So we have to actively combat them. But here's the thing that's really interesting.
01:03:42
Speaker
There's been 50 plus years of research on gender and on masculinities. What we know from all these different kind of scales that are out there is that most men are in the middle. Most men on measures of masculinity are not rigid or are not extremes. They are in the middle.
01:04:03
Speaker
Imagine like a normal curve, right? Most guys are in the middle, okay? However, the research also suggests that most guys think they're not as masculine as they ought to be, right? And most guys, when they see other men, think they're the least masculine guy in the room. So you wonder why when guys get together, they do stupid things. It's because they don't realize they're probably mostly in the middle.
01:04:28
Speaker
they're all assessing the other people around them and thinking I'm not enough so I have to perform my masculinity to prove that I'm okay. I see this in men's groups all the time. Initial men's therapy groups it takes three four five weeks before the guys finally figure out they're all kind of in the middle.
01:04:46
Speaker
And then the performing for each other stops and they start being real. And the reason why I think this is a nice take home message is that it helps us not see every guy as an extreme. Most guys are in the middle. So most guys are actually, you know,
01:05:04
Speaker
relatively flexible and how they kind of do or they'd like to be more flexible and they have emotional capacities and they have this ability to be kind and they have this ability to be compassionate and they have this ability to want to give and help, right? Not everyone is a menace.
01:05:20
Speaker
or trying to get over on someone kind of else. And so I think it helps us kind of see the humanity in men a lot more. And I think when we do that, it also helps reinforce this notion that we expect guys to be, right? So if we understand guys are in the middle and then we begin to see guys that way, we don't exactly edge on the edge of that kind of very rigid traditional kind of way of being. So I think that's a helpful kind of piece to kind of like just think, huh, I've never thought about it that way.
01:05:48
Speaker
Yeah, what a great way to end this this part one of who knows how many parts but part one of the research shows that most men are in that kind of middle and not rigid and I think is such a contrast to really so much of what we see in media and social media and the news is that they
01:06:06
Speaker
And that's the thing, we live in such a binary world of like, left or right or this or that. So I think in some ways it sells papers and gets people peaked, but I think it also, I think doesn't really do justice to what's really going on and creates more dissonance, more disconnection rather than building bridges. I think it's more about bridge burning and not really actually doing something positive about it. It's just like, well, here's all the, again, what am I talking about? Here's all the junk, here's all the toxic, toxic quote stuff. Rather than, I know actually a lot of men are here. There's a lot more,
01:06:34
Speaker
We need to see their humanity, even though I would argue, even those guys on the extremes, we need to see their humanity. Absolutely. Because there's a reason why they're doing that. And we can still disagree with their behavior and still say, that's not okay, it's wrong, it's hurtful. But there's a humanity in there that I think is still being missed. I would argue is probably why they're so stuck. Not to say that they're doing it because of that, that's the only reason that's it, because there's plenty of men that have been harmed that don't do these things.
01:07:01
Speaker
We gotta see all of our humanity except the core, that's what we need. That's how we heal, is the humanity of one person and going back to what you said earlier, it's about connecting to the man in front of you. How are you connecting to him? Because if you're not connecting to him and it's humanity, he's not gonna come back. He's not gonna make a difference.
01:07:18
Speaker
Matt, I thank you. My mind's, I have like a thousand questions. And so, and I'm gonna wrap it up, but thank you for having, beginning this really big conversation and sharing some of your thoughts on this and some of your research. And yeah, we're gonna have more and I'll line up some more ideas about it. But thank you. Have an, have an awesome night. And if, if people wanted to know more about what you're doing, the work you're doing in research, is there any way they could find you out there? I mean,
01:07:40
Speaker
What would that be? They can probably find me on the Cal State Fullerton website or the Department of Counseling under the Center for Boys and Men. My night off would say, check out the mental app. It's a good place to kind of find some support. And again, it's a way that we're working to kind of meet guys where they are and offer support. I'm going to drop all that in the comments section, the description, everybody, all these links directly to this and to the app itself. And every good night and thanks again Matt for being on.
01:08:10
Speaker
Thanks a lot Travis, take good care. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.