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SUMMER ROAD TRIP - Vermont & Virginia
62 Plays2 years ago
We are definitely at our last few exits in the Summer Road Trip through the United States - and we took a slight break tonight for a different type of episode.
Virginia - (1.47 - 32.46) Lisa takes us through a discussion of the FBI's BSU and their beginnings
Vermont - (32.47 - end) Faith is taking us on a trip through the Bennington Triangle and the murders, disappearances & mysteries that lie within
We would love to hear from you all as always, and get any tips or suggestions you may have for stories, how to be better, etc [email protected]
Also for extra's throughout the week, come join us on social media
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Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another episode, second to last episode in the summer series with twisted. Celebrating is going to happen. Oh, my gosh.
Storytelling Challenges and Summer Reflections
00:00:19
Speaker
You guys don't even understand, like I hear great stories and I'm like, I want to do that story, but no, no, I'm stuck in some podunk town.
00:00:26
Speaker
that I can't find anything interesting in, and I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. I don't like being dictated to, even though I did the dictation. Yeah, you totally just. No more rules. No more rules. You dunked that one on. I did. That was rough. It was a good idea. It was a great idea. And like the concept was good. And then life really, really got in the way. And why would we think summer, the time where kids have no schedule and everything's up in the air? Leah, let's double up then.
00:00:52
Speaker
Well, not it's not even just that like you would think it wouldn't be so bad. You didn't know I didn't. I didn't because I was naive and stupid. Yeah. So maybe no summer road trip next year. Oh, no, we might take a sabbatical next next summer. We'll take a sabbatical.
Introducing Hosts and Discussion Setup
00:01:06
Speaker
But anyway, this is faith. This is Lisa. We haven't figured that out yet. And you're listening to his tales. All right. Rock, paper, scissors. I guess. Yeah, why not?
00:01:17
Speaker
I'm going to loosen up here. It's not going to help. I'm going to win. I can feel it. You're not. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. No! What was that? You felt it. You felt it. It may have been gas. Your psychic abilities were not there. They may have been gas. I don't know. All right.
Anticipation and Topic Similarity Concerns
00:01:44
Speaker
So Faith, we have had a multiple. Oh, hold on. A multiple. We've had a multitude. I wish I was going to start yelling at the kids. And then I realized that we were podcasting. I'm sorry, multiple. We've had a multitude now of.
00:02:05
Speaker
Okay, our cases are the same tonight. I'm gonna be furious I'm just letting you know because mine is so off the wall. I thought there's no way And if they are similar, I'm literally gonna throw something at you. I'm gonna be so mad. Well, you know what they say
00:02:20
Speaker
Great minds think alike. Great minds think alike. I don't want my mind linked to yours in any way. I know. I know. Opposite of. Super weird. Yeah. Like that super awkward conversation we had when I told you the worm story and you wanted me to die. Yes, that one. Anyway, continue. Still a good day.
Focus Shift to Crime Solvers
00:02:35
Speaker
Anyways, so we've talked about victims. Yeah. We have talked about civilian heroes. Yeah. And we have talked about criminals. True, true. And I thought tonight, what better way and in what better state
00:02:50
Speaker
to talk about the people who catch them. OK, good, good. OK, I've got some devilish eyes just now. I really thought you were going to be like, I want something kind of whimsical, and I was going to be like, mother. No, because I have the state of Virginia. Now, anybody that knows anything about crannomines or mine hunters or any of that, Quantico is, in fact, in Virginia. It is.
Behavioral Science Unit and Criminal Profiling
00:03:16
Speaker
So close. I wish I was talented enough to be there.
00:03:20
Speaker
I miss my calling. I should. I have I have a cousin who's talented enough to be there, but. She makes bookoos and money doing what she's done. I don't blame her, but you still be. It'd be so much fun. So I decided to do my podcast on. The behavioral science unit. I love the DAU.
00:03:41
Speaker
Okay, so BAU, BSU, Criminal Minds, but it was founded as the Behavioral Science Unit. Yeah, but it's referred to as the BAU in my mind, because Criminal Minds is, you know, more educational than facts. I understand, I understand. And actually, it was kind of funny too, because I got super sucked into that show, Mind Hunters.
00:04:02
Speaker
I've been watching it. Don't know spoilers. No spoilers. But no, this isn't going to really spoil anything, but I didn't realize how close to I mean, there's still a lot of fabrications, a lot of different things. Yeah. But for for the information point of view. Yeah, they did change some names. And I've got some articles actually you can reference if you know, you don't reference it if you're just now watching it. But I mean, it just kind of gives way to the people that actually physically created this. Yeah. And the characters that they portray in My Hunters. Right. Right. Right.
00:04:32
Speaker
So let me open this back up. So it was developed back in the 70s and we know why.
00:04:39
Speaker
Because that's when all the serial killers were running rampant. Because there was such a rise in sexual assaults and in homicides, right? In the United States. Do you know like the number one for serial killers? Oh, I'm not. Dude, I want to tell you what. I mean, I'm not going to 100% get on board with that because I feel like a lot of that crap's not reported either. Well, yeah. Like a lot of mysterious deaths, a lot of mysterious things that go on. Maybe people don't have quite the technology to link two and two together, you know?
00:05:05
Speaker
But like, I mean, you hear all kinds of crap about Scotland Yard and all the all the insane work that they do over there. Yeah. Yeah. And like the United Kingdom. Right. I don't want to go crazy. It's Britain for Scotland Yard. Right.
Serial Killer Statistics and Media Portrayal
00:05:22
Speaker
But so just let you know countries with the most serial killers as of 2022, right? And this is world population review as what's reported as what's reported. England is number two with 166. You want to know where United States is? Take a guess. Number one. Yeah, but take a guess how many at number one.
00:05:44
Speaker
I know we supersede that massive way. But just to guess, just throw it out there. England's number two at one hundred and sixty six. Two million. OK, you way overshot that. Three thousand two hundred and six. Yeah, I'm not sure. So while it might be under report in other countries, let's be real. We have way more. So this was a study that you just found in twenty twenty two. Yeah. OK. When did we ever get to hear about that?
00:06:12
Speaker
I've heard it before. That's why I looked it up. No, no, no. Just the study. What about the people? Oh, I don't know. I don't feel like it's as widely portrayed now as it used to be. Look at all the freaking podcasts, true crime podcasts. There's plenty of people talking about the murders of the United States. You have to seek that out. Yeah. Warnings on mainstream media.
00:06:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, they're not gonna happen anymore. Except for the shopping cart killer, that was. For us, that was on the news for a minute. But I don't know how world-renowned or nationwide that was. You still gotta listen to it too, like there was that girl that went running like two weeks ago.
00:06:48
Speaker
Memphis. Yeah. And she was like an heiress. She was, but she was a runner. She was a mother. Like she was just a normal. I researched that a
True Crime Podcasts and Law Enforcement Challenges
00:06:56
Speaker
little bit. The guy, the guy that was, uh, not convicted, but arrested for that crime and already been arrested once before for the same kind of crap.
00:07:03
Speaker
Then it leaves us again. We're going to be way off topic. Yeah, we are content. I was going to say, I'm going to give my last thing. Then we're going to go. No commentary on it. It'd be nice if every sexual assault person and or murder just had like five ounces of weed on them, then they'd be in jail forever. Continue. I feel like we can pocket that. I just wanted to give him a hug. I don't know what's going to happen next. I swear it isn't mine. That was really lame, Lisa.
00:07:32
Speaker
Try again. Try again. Okay. Back to you. Sorry. I went off on a tangent. I want to go to Virginia. And again, like one of the basis of all of the stuff that I read, it was literally like, if you talk about from a business standpoint, like supply and demand.
00:07:50
Speaker
Like literally, there was a just uber supply of dead bodies. There was a demand already. Yeah. And so we needed to be supplying some kind of a way, something to give people's mind some kind of a rest. Now, I'm going to jump out and just go opinion wise on this for just a minute, because I don't want this to sound toxic, but it's going to sound toxic.
00:08:19
Speaker
I feel like the people that study these people have to be a little crazy, too. Yeah. You know what I mean? To like sit and listen like. It's coming from the person that has spent how many months looking up and researching murders and killers and rapists. Not face to face. Not not OK. You know what? I'll get into that in a minute because I'll tell you a little bit more about that here just a second. I do have my
00:08:48
Speaker
I do have my opinions about some of it. But, you know, what can I say? So according to some of the research that I've done, there were five like major guys that they interviewed. And again, if you are watching Mine Hunters, if you're not watching Mine Hunters, go watch it and then yell at Netflix because they need to keep going.
00:09:09
Speaker
Because there's not yet a date for season three. I'm just going to throw that out there. Yeah, but Criminal Minds is coming back on Paramount+. I know, dude. I'm like, that's something so weird to get excited about. Hashtag bring Reed back. And Hodge. They're not going to bring Hodge back. I don't care if he kicked a rider. Hashtag bring Reed and Hodge back. I mean, I feel like he had a coming. He at least had a coming.
00:09:33
Speaker
I'm going to keep you in a minute. What are you going to do? Fire me? There were typical guys that they researched. Five of them were on this particular list on soapboxy.com. One was Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't know if anybody has ever watched any kind of documentary about Jeffrey Dahmer.
00:09:53
Speaker
Well, Netflix did that. Super. It's interesting because like, all right. So I'm going to jump into another thing. I watched an interview on YouTube and I will actually send that to you so we can link it. OK. It was really informative.
Organized vs. Disorganized Killers
00:10:06
Speaker
It was only it was like 20 minutes ish. But it's a guy who is an actual behavioral scientist. And he was talking about the development of of what, you know, what they started, what Douglas started and all this kind of stuff. Yeah. And the way that they started to gain knowledgeable
00:10:21
Speaker
you'll understand more as you start listening more to Mindhunter because again, that was factual, where they started to categorize them into different, whether they're organized or disorganized and they actually labeled Jeffrey Dahmer as disorganized. And I was like, I don't understand because, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But the more you get into it, I would actually recommend once I post that link, just go ahead and listen to it because it explains more.
00:10:45
Speaker
about what's organized and what's disorganized, but he just used what was available to him. Where is somebody that's organized like, okay, do you remember? Did you ever see the red dragon? Nope. Never mind. I don't want to make that reference. But either way, he would in that movie watch video tapes because he worked at like, you know, your average Walgreens or whatever and he would develop photos and videos for people.
00:11:10
Speaker
And he would steal the pictures and actually like look at their homes and go through these pictures and see here's their back door. Here's, you know, like not looking at the photos of the family themselves, but, you know, researching what everything looked like. That would be more classified as an organized killer. Yeah. OK, so Dolmer was on the list of people that they interviewed, but that was back in the 90s. There was quite a few of them. George. I'm not going to say this right. And a second.
00:11:42
Speaker
He was a man placing bombs in several public places, so he was like one of the mass murderers that they go into and start explaining the differences between a serial killer and a mass murderer. Ted Bundy, yeah, yep, yep, we all know Ted Bundy. John Wayne Gacy was on that list. Edmond Kemper is on that list, and that's another one from what you're watching right now. Apparently Ed Kemper did a lot of interviews and was very, very open.
00:12:10
Speaker
And I thought maybe that was just part of Mine Hunters, just kind of extending episodes, you know? But there's actually another interview on YouTube that you can see, and it's not the full interview and I wanna be able to get my hands on it. I would actually really like to be able to get my hands on the original, I think they said there were 36 men that they had interviewed for their basis, for their, what do you call that? It's like the line,
00:12:39
Speaker
when you're doing a test on something like your baseline, your baseline.
John E. Douglas and Impact of Profiling
00:12:43
Speaker
Thank you. You said line and then base. Yeah, I couldn't have been that bad. I stutter. I'm talking in public. Yeah. Whatever you got to tell yourself. Shut up. Either way. So the the BSU start interviewing all of these and there's like 36 guys and originated with 10 men who started to not just 10 men. There was another woman who was again portrayed as I think
00:13:08
Speaker
car or something like that on your um in mine hunters but anyways um they would literally interview these people they would go around to different states different places and and talk to them and ask them stupid questions and just start developing that baseline of okay well he's organized he's not organized he's this he's that and um so we get to
00:13:35
Speaker
This is an article RTI and it is all things interesting.com. Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and reference in deep. Yeah. Um, so from Ted Bundy to John Wayne Gacy, John E Douglas had interviewed just about every serial killer in recent history.
00:13:51
Speaker
and he learned what made them tick. So John Douglas- Can you imagine being that person in the forefront? That would be amazing. I can sit here and have this conversation with you and get mad, but to sit in front of someone trying to justify what they did to somebody else. Watching the interview with Ed Kemper and the fact that he was sitting there with a freaking head
00:14:13
Speaker
in a in a in a what was cooler? No, no, it wasn't in a bucket. It was a camera camera back. That's right. And like literally just greeting people going up the stairs. Here's my thing. Like, how do you OK, so there's cops. There's, you know, blue collar, whatever. How do you come up with the hey, we should in depth study them?
00:14:41
Speaker
Like, how is that? I don't know. I just feel like that would have been the supply and demand. It is supply and demand because now you're looking at things that are becoming very publicized. But supply and demand and getting them not like in-depth studying. How else do you catch?
00:14:57
Speaker
How do you catch any bad guys? I don't know. I just think it's really interesting. But if you think about it logically and you start going back in time, like, yeah, there was a judge, there was a jury, but really, what's the evidence? How many people were put on, you know, you know, put to death in medieval times and so on? Right. Right. Right. Probably didn't even do it today. Because if you think twisted and sick are a new development, that's a lie.
00:15:22
Speaker
But again, you know, these people wanted to talk about it. They wanted you. OK, I think the main deal is they wanted to try to justify to the public what happened to them. But there was a lot of intriguing stuff listening to Ed Kemper on YouTube. So, again, y'all seek it out. Go do what you want. I'm not going to post every little thing that I ever watch, but what a weird guy.
00:15:49
Speaker
Well, it takes an unusual person to think I should, you know, Maine people are making nipple belt and Casey's. Yeah. Well, he like case at one point during John Wayne, not John Wayne. Now you got me off on him on on Kemper's interview. He talked about how.
00:16:09
Speaker
He thought about it, he fantasized about it, but it would never follow through with it. And he gave so many rides to so many potential victims that got off scot-free. So what was that point where he snapped and was like, I'm doing it. There's all these stories like when they caught Bundy or just the different people.
00:16:29
Speaker
of like people talk about how they remember like when they were, you know, an adolescent, like they're watching the news and their mom like because she had given him a ride or seen like, how did she get away? You know what I mean? Like what made it? I don't know. It's very interesting that I was I was telling you about with that guy that is from the bureau. He started talking about he was involved in
00:16:54
Speaker
the sniper shootings. Yeah. And the more he investigated, the more like two cents that he could put in at that time. Yeah. He was telling them this looks like more than one shooter because this one guy's got a God God complex. But then the way he's talking in his notes by referring to the police as Mr. Seems very submissive. And so like, but without people. Taking that so smart to pick up on every little nuance.
00:17:24
Speaker
I wish I was that smart. I know. But how much of it is smarts and how much is habit? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? These guys have been studying this and studying this from so many different variations into so many different aspects. Right. They've seen it almost all. I'm sure there's always something that's going to have that gotcha moment. But you're looking at the guys in the top five that I just read off to you that are like,
00:17:54
Speaker
the sickest of the sick, right? Like, what makes them tick? And they had enough intestinal fortitude, if you will, to dig in and figure out what makes these guys tick. And one of the guys even said, at one point, Kemper is a horrible human person. He is a horrible, horrible man, but I kind of liked him.
00:18:18
Speaker
You know what I mean? Because he wasn't just looking at the devious darkness evil that was in him. He was looking at like the human and being personable. It's great. All right. So since we got off on that tangent, I got to find my place again. So like I said, John Douglas, pioneer for criminal profiling, former FBI agent.
00:18:44
Speaker
his autobiography book, Mine Hunter. Now a critically acclaimed Netflix series explains how he assisted in murder investigations by getting inside the heads of some of the worst serial killers on the planet.
00:19:00
Speaker
She's not talking to her. I'm so sorry. No, I was talking to my kid because he stopped to look at whatever was on my screen. So so during his career, the FBI, the FBI's behavioral science unit, the BSU Douglas interviewed the likes of Ted Bundy, Dahmer, BTK. And he helped track down some of America's worst predators. So. Basically, like. If you have a pack of hyenas running loose. Yeah.
00:19:32
Speaker
you need something to solve that problem. So you let loose the group of lions. And I feel like that's what Douglas and his crew started. They were a pride of lions and they were like, you know what, you can scavenge all you want, but I'm gonna hunt you down anyway, right? So, Quantico, sorry, Douglas felt that there was something vital missing from his classes. He decided to remedy that fact by
00:20:01
Speaker
interviewing lots of serial killers That's so cool. That's okay. But here's the deal like him being able to get access to these people is insane Like how do you talk everybody into letting you start this and that's another thing that I said when I told you like it takes a twisted mind I'm sorry guys. I'm like allergies allergies and he's gonna see are real So I keep like losing my voice and sounding like I'm going through puberty, but that is not she's lying Unfortunately, the voice is never all the way gone
00:20:32
Speaker
Your insults are infuriating. I can't even just have my case without you being a douche. It's not really a case, but either way, somebody needs to know about it. Because again, like I said, like it takes a weird mind. In a very, very evil mind to commit the murders that Kemper and Bundy and all these guys did.
00:20:59
Speaker
But it also has to take somebody just a little and I said it before about surgeons Like they're not normal people out there thinking I could I could drill this guy's brain open and then fix him Well, we talked about it. Like I don't know which episode we talked about it But either one of the things I was listening to was like people that basically like a surgeon a person whose mind
00:21:23
Speaker
that is good enough to be like a really good surgeon to like get in there and perform new surgeries and stuff is the same type of mind that technically could be a serial killer that opens people up and see how they work. It's just a legal way to do it. Right. You know, our like police officers, some police officers have the same mind as criminals and killing people. They just have a legal means to do it. Correct. So same difference. Yeah. Yeah. But I just this is like this whole the idea of this.
00:21:48
Speaker
I just don't know how you come up with all this. It's so perfect. For somebody on the outside looking in being like, what is going on? What is going on? How long do you think he had this idea before he broached people and talked people into it? I don't know. It depends on the kind of confidence he had. Well, you got to have some confidence to pull it off in the first place. Right, but to actually acknowledge it and say, we have a problem.
00:22:11
Speaker
And here I am the solution. Yeah. Well, because I mean, have you ever walked into your boss's office without a problem to a solution all the time? Ask him. He's always like, what are we going to do about it?
Law Enforcement Burnout and Cultural Crime Perception
00:22:22
Speaker
I'm like, I don't know. You don't have to figure this out pretty avidly. You can't bitch about something if you don't have a solution. My boss tries not to talk to me.
00:22:31
Speaker
He actually interviewed someone new yesterday. Maybe your boss had a lot in common. He called me out of my office to start talking. He goes, yeah, we usually don't introduce her to people to like, you know, they're hired and here and then they get back out. So just forget about her. Yeah, just just walk away. But I got put back in time out. Yeah, I get that. I get time out all the time. Yeah. And I get demerits. I don't get there's no system for me. They just relentlessly on me and then tell me I'm not allowed to just be social with anyone. Yeah.
00:23:02
Speaker
if the
00:23:22
Speaker
Is that before your mind is so horribly damaged by the crap that you've seen that you're like You need to go before there's irreparable harm done and it's caseloads. It's burnout. It's the physicality Like a lot of times that's what I don't get like an all TV like there's always those older grizzly That's not real life like yours. They force you to retire But if you're just a pencil pusher and you're interviewing people that's that's totally irrelevant
00:23:49
Speaker
I don't. Oh, for this this case or this unit. Yeah. Do behavioral science. I mean, how many people have actually walked that field? Oh, I don't know. But FBI, it is a forced retirement, I believe, at 45 unless it's like special circumstance. It might have not been way back in the day, but it is now. Both my grandparents are FBI. I know.
00:24:12
Speaker
Do you know he has another badge? They're so cool. I know. I want one of his badges to be left to me. They're super. So does everybody else in the family, though? Yeah, well, can always get what you want. Anyways, so. What? Well, they get what you need. So basically here in my my tiny little podcast, I did bring up the behavioral science unit.
00:24:38
Speaker
I gave you kind of a lot of open ended. It's very surface level. Oh, because we could spend like hours on on just the information they've released and some of this thinking. I am literally going to dive back into this after the podcast and have quite enough time to try and we should do like a full link. We should definitely.
00:24:59
Speaker
But I would love to see if I could get my hands on some of the tapes. And I just don't know that they're released to the public. But I do know there's a lot of interviews with Ted Bundy that came out. You know who would know. He would sit there and blame like, you know, TV and everything. Yeah. What he did. You know who would know? Big country. Yeah, I know. I don't know how to get a hold of him. He lives three doors down from my parents.
00:25:26
Speaker
Gonna have to we're gonna have to we're gonna treat there this year Lady you don't have any kids. It's okay Hi, we kind of know you we won't ask questions
00:25:44
Speaker
Surely there's not enough or anything really that he could probably say to us, but so now it'd be worth time. Even if we can podcast and he just told us. Yes. That would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I'd keep my mouth shut. Just going to throw that out there. I cannot promise that because I'd get too excited if a case I was talking about was just even slightly touched it. That'd be like, oh, my gosh, remember. And then you would be kicking me. And then I would have to edit it all out. Editing is a pain in the tuchus. It's hard. It's hard.
00:26:13
Speaker
Is it Lisa? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't know. I don't let Lisa do a lot. I just. You already have too much going on. I pick up a microphone and I talk into it and then sometimes she likes it and then sometimes she wants to hire someone else. Not OK. I don't pay you. No one else is going to be as well. You pay me in in friendship and my delightful self. Yes. That's still up for debate.
00:26:39
Speaker
How do you talk? Because the FBI is already like around at this point. How do you talk a government agency into opening a whole. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. Oh, I thought you were done with your section. No, I'm no, I'm going to tell you. I thought you were. It's my opinion. Oh, totally my opinion. I thought you were done. You said how do you know if you know how do you know?
00:27:03
Speaker
How do you get an entire government official agency, whatever, to open up an entire new department for a theory? Right. I'm going to tell you how. Desperation. So during that whole time, during the 70s, early 80s, it was it was like a disease, like the wild. It was like a friggin cancer. It was like herpes. Anybody that got it got a touch of it, got it. And that's. And once it's there, it never goes away, never goes away.
00:27:31
Speaker
And, you know, while there are, you know, drugs that can kind of help you, which we'll call the BAU. Still going to pop back up, and these people are still going to be out there, and it's just part of that twisted, weird mentality. Why does the United States have so many? I think it's just due to reporting, honestly. There are so many, like, and this is no disrespect to any other country, to anybody else at any point in time.
00:28:01
Speaker
But we may be a little bit more flamboyant with information than most countries. We're proud of our crazy. Other people try to sleep it under the rug. Exactly. And that's that's my point, honestly, to keep their dirty secrets like hidden. We're like national lampoons out with our army pumping the sump. But again, we're we are considered a free nation, right?
00:28:22
Speaker
Right. Whereas everybody else is very socialist, communist, whatever. They don't want anyone to know that something's happening. They don't want to know, you know, so we're going to report A, B and C, but we're really not going to tell you the whole truth. You know, we had an outbreak of Covid. How many people were really, honestly, truthful about that? Let's not go in. That was worldwide. You know what I'm saying? But I'm just saying, I think that in certain countries, they're not going to give their numbers of crazy.
00:28:50
Speaker
Because crazy is crazy. It's not it's not a white person. It's not. It's not. It's not. Most police viewed us kind of shameful and we don't want you knowing about it because we need tourism. We're like, hey, cases that I've heard come to our shop above the voodoo shop where we've recreated a murder scene. Right. Right. We celebrate our our murder. But you know why? Here's the deal. Here's the deal. All the serial killers that we discussed have always been in the past.
00:29:20
Speaker
There are not very many cases unless you really, really search for it that are going to tell you. Yeah, this is what that was. Yeah. Because I can remember years ago that there were cases back up in Massachusetts and I remember talking to like some friends who were like, I really think it's a serial killer. Yeah. And they were always leaving a Celtics game. They were always found dead in whatever harbor or whatever is over there, River Lake, whatever.
00:29:50
Speaker
No, no, no, everything's fine here. Everything's good. Yeah. This is a safe place to live. Like, and I think that's where we are now. You know what I mean? Like, we're not going to call it out to the general public because we don't want to incite fear. Yeah. But unless it's like in your face, like Israel, please. Well, but here's the deal. Do you remember who was it?
00:30:13
Speaker
I'm gonna have to look into it, but I know my facts are correct. Where there was a serial killer on the loose. I cannot for the life of me remember which one it was. But the government gave women a curfew. And they said, don't be out past this. And please, for the love of God, make sure you are either with a man or in a group.
00:30:35
Speaker
I don't know. I tell you not. I'll Google it. Hold on. I'll figure it out after the podcast, maybe during the years if I get bored. What? But women started like not rioting, but picketing, picketing, stand our hand up with an invisible sign. But they were they were upset about it.
00:30:58
Speaker
Tell me what to do you can't do this a BNC and I'm sitting you're thinking like What a catch-22, right? Like we tell you what's going on and if we didn't tell you you'd be pissed but we told you tell you and you're pissed Yeah Yeah, I'm gonna find that one and then I'm gonna randomly explode in the middle of your podcast. Maybe I know maybe next week. Maybe I'll bite my tongue, but Yeah It is a catch-22
00:31:28
Speaker
But again, guys, where there's an evil, there's a light and the government came up with the BSU.
00:31:37
Speaker
and so many men sacrificed, I would say their mental stability. Oh, yeah. To try to understand it. And you know what kudos to law enforcement kudos to the men and women that serve our country who fight wars, who fight the wars at home and across seas because you know what? There's a lot of crazy out there. Somebody's there and there are so many men and women that can walk into a scene that I would
00:32:08
Speaker
have a heart attack and die. Yeah. You know, and I don't I don't think they get enough credit for that kind of crap. Oh, no, they don't. So that's cool.
00:32:19
Speaker
That's a good episode. I'm glad I liked it. I didn't like that. Because you know what? I'm sitting here thinking I'm like, you know what? I've done a hero. I've done victims. I have done criminals. But you know what, freaking I got I got Virginia and I was like, I'm going for it. I didn't know where you're going. That was a good one. That was a good one. I like that. Yep. All right. Are you are you good? You know, I think I'm OK. All right. All right. Well, let's move out of Virginia and on to Vermont.
00:32:49
Speaker
So, no, it's 100. I did not check, but whatever. I'll catch up next week if I missed them up again. Now you're good.
00:32:58
Speaker
Dang it. No. I know. Next episode, whatever. I can't let it go anymore. Faith, you make me you make me feel foolish a lot. So I have to just throw it out there. Right. Right. When I can find it's fine. I wouldn't let anything pass on you. So. All right. Back to Texas, Vermont. Don't screw me up. All right. So I picked this episode. It is way outside the which is weird because we both did something way not normal, but whatever. I keep this episode for you specifically for Lisa.
00:33:26
Speaker
Right. And we'll get to why. Is this something that's going to get me so pissed off that I'm not going to sleep tonight? No. And I literally put and I know 100 percent you will not have a backing case for this. Like I will literally spell out I hate you in individual letters. Yeah. Like a text message over and over all night if I can talk about this. No. All right. So when you think of Vermont, what do you think about? States that begin in the letter V. OK.
00:33:55
Speaker
What I think about is maple syrup. Mm hmm. And thanks to rules of engagement, leaf peeping. There you go. You go look at leaves, apparently, but I thought leaf peeping was hilarious. They did it in Vermont. I loved the show. Rules of engagement. So you're a little on Jeff.
00:34:12
Speaker
The boys and David Spate loved that show. That was a great job. I know. But I'm talking Vermont wise. Isn't that like one of those places that's got like that beautiful cascade of like mountains and stuff? Yes. And all the trees and the leaves said gorgeousness because you didn't think of another word. Sorry. That's right. That is Vermont.
Vermont's UFO History and Cursed Locations
00:34:29
Speaker
What I didn't know about Vermont. It's like the biggest UFO sighting ever.
00:34:36
Speaker
It was actually very, one of the very first, I know it's weird, just to show you what we're dealing with. One of the very first places in the United States where a UFO was supposedly spotted. You know that people that get probed is not actually a criminal case. Right, right. No, no, I'm going to. OK, that's not what. Population basis. All right, all right.
00:34:55
Speaker
I was just researching Vermont and this came up. In 1984, there were numerous accounts of silo-like lights coming down from the sky all over a mountain range. And as of July 26, 2022, it is the second most likely state to spot a UFO with about 88 sightings per 100,000 residents. And according to the Manchester Journal, July is the best month to spot UFOs in Vermont, with there being 603 reports filed
00:35:25
Speaker
this year of sightings in July. So anyway, so real quick, just before you we're not going into aliens. No, I started watching the show Strange Encounters where they start doing these like scientific explanations for like weird crap. And I always kind of wonder to myself, like, how much can light seriously ricochet off of something? I'm just saying it was really funny. You should you should you should do this.
00:35:55
Speaker
That's how they explain, like, random phenomenons of light and, you know, it ricochets off the car, off the... I gotcha. The totem pole. I'm back with you. Yeah. I'm back with you. It's just... It was funny to me. All right. So, follow-up question. I watched you do before. Now that we're gonna get back into the actual case, not UFO sighting. What is your opinion on a place or location being haunted and or cursed? You know...
00:36:25
Speaker
I've watched a lot of things. I've heard a lot of stories, especially around here. There was that very, very large mansion that the dad, like, I guess, slaughtered his whole family with a hatchet or something. Yeah. Horror stories. I don't know if it was real life or not. There are there are things I believe in, but I don't know. I don't know that I'll go with haunted.
00:36:52
Speaker
OK, I'm just wondering. So tonight we are going to go off the rails of our normal, normal podcast. And since my life is dark enough right now, I thought we'd go with something a little bit, you know, whimsical, whimsy, if you will. Interesting. Plus, I heard something about Vermont and I was like, oh, Lisa will love this. So that's where we're going. We are going to talk about things that are legend. That are real, that are unsolved.
00:37:23
Speaker
Lots of fun surprises here. I think I know exactly where you're going with this because I'm pretty sure I've heard the story. You might have. But anyway, so are we about to talk about Bigfoot? No. We are going to the Bennington Triangle.
Bennington Triangle Mysteries
00:37:40
Speaker
Have you ever heard of it? Maybe. So the Bittington Triangle is in the Southwest, I believe, I'm not good with Northwest Southeast, but of the Gladstoneberry Mountain Range in Vermont. And the towns that surround and encompass that make up the Bittington Triangle are Bittington, Woodford, Shaftesberry and Somerset.
00:38:06
Speaker
And so that's where we're at. Um, historically there was a big battle of Bennington, like back in American revolutionary times. And it's literally this, this place is like up in a mountain, like think Appalachian mountains, like huge up in the mountains. And so they've got all these people fighting this battle of Bennington and people are literally battling on this mountain, dying on this mountain. The bodies are just left on this mountain. Yeah.
00:38:34
Speaker
And so there are nature just kind of takes care of that. Right. Well, it's funny. You should say that. So there are Native American drawings that have been found about the Bittington Mountains, Bittington Triangle region. Yeah. And it shows basically these huge rocks just eating.
00:38:54
Speaker
people dead bodies rocks like well it shows it is like this mythical stone type of deal almost in their drawings i mean it's drawing so it's hard to really know i cannot tell you how many shows that i've watched like including river monsters right where like these are actual literal fish that exist right but based on theory and based on legend what what reality is it's all based in a little bit of truth yeah
00:39:18
Speaker
Well, there's actually the Vermont Monster Guide was written by Joseph Citro. He coined the name The Bennington Triangle, and he was American author from New England, usually in like usually into like horror and Edgar Allen Poe type things. And he wrote several books, but
00:39:35
Speaker
He wanted to catalog eccentric legends, folk tales, monsters, UFO sightings, and those kinds of things in his book. And the Vermont Monster Guide was part of this. In this Vermont Monster Guide, a chapter in the book called Shadow Child, he talks about a man eating rock. And when I first heard the term, I thought like,
00:40:01
Speaker
a man sitting there eating rocks, like man eating rocks, right? Like those weird people that is not that is not that guy. OK, that is not what this is about. I literally thought it was a guy eating rocks. And I was like, at least it says quarter eaters. Same thing. No. You said it on the podcast. Yeah, whatever. So a direct quote from this guy's book is no one alive has seen this dangerous anomaly on Gadsdenberry Mountain.
00:40:27
Speaker
The Native Americans knew of it and warned people away. We can only imagine it is a sizable rock large enough to stand on, but when someone stands upon it, it becomes less solid and the unfortunate trespasser is swallowed up by the rock. Multiple people have vanished on the Glastonbury mountain. Could all of these people have stepped inadvertently on this hungry stone?
00:40:54
Speaker
So we're talking like quicksand or I don't know. It could be. That's a good point. I like a sinkhole in a mountain. Yeah. I think about that. I just thought I was going to do legends and theory. Right. Right. Sitting here thinking like so this location.
00:41:10
Speaker
It's the exact like it's kind of like the Bermuda Triangle like you know the general region, but it's not like a clear-cut triangle, right, right, right, okay? Yeah, exactly so Several people have gone missing which we're gonna get to they've been very
00:41:27
Speaker
Several mysterious situations, sightings, books have been written off all these hardcore crime enthusiasts have heard about it. There have been a thousand podcasts on the Bittington Triangle. I just really thought Lisa would appreciate this and I needed something lighter than usual. So here we go. You might not like Lisa's theories, though. Some of them, you know. All right.
00:41:48
Speaker
So, there are a lot of towns and areas surrounding. We're gonna talk about the main one we're gonna be in is Glastonbury, which is very sparsely habitated. Habitated, habitated? Sparsely? Sparsely? Sparsely is the word. Habitated or habitated, I don't know. No, sparsely just means there's a lack of people. That's what I mean. Misunderstood what you said. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. No, that was my bad. And the town has been abandoned since the 1900s.
00:42:16
Speaker
Most of the town resides in the Green Mountain Forest, which is very much like the Appalachian Trail, which we live very close to.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, but like the Appalachian Mountains, you don't know everybody that's up there. Most of them are off the gridders and survivalists and just like like literally a girl I work with shiners, guys, their moonshine. I've got I've got a friend that she grew up there like they literally the house she grew up in did not have a bathroom. It has an outhouse. Her mother still lives up there in that same house. So you and you just don't know about these people because they live completely free of. Yeah, I was going to say they all modern technologies, basically.
00:43:03
Speaker
So this mountain range has about 12 mountain peaks in it. It's located about 3,000 feet up. The mountain is where the town was located. It's said to be like the trees are so dense that it blocks sound like it kind of traps stuff in. Yeah.
00:43:20
Speaker
So it's very quiet, kind of eerie. It's unchartered. I don't think people realize in inhabitants what we really know and what we don't know.
Glastonbury's Cursed History
00:43:30
Speaker
It's like a deep sea. I think they said that 75% of the Amazon is completely undiscovered. There could be tribes in there, guys, that you don't even know about. Yeah.
00:43:41
Speaker
animals matter and that's where we're at it has a very strange and tragic story basically from beginning to end this place the Native Americans in the area called the land cursed from the very beginning they would not step foot on this land except to bury their dead they said the lane was the land was sacred but not for any good reason they said it was an area where the four winds met in an internal struggle
00:44:10
Speaker
OK, so just thinking logically, you're looking at the native people that have been here for eons. Right. Right. And they're sitting here telling you these are rugged people. They're not. No. Yeah. They're not like, you know.
00:44:27
Speaker
They would go bury their dead. High class. They would go bury their dead there, but they would not live in there. They're not like the glamping type of people that'll drive up in a camper. These are people that live off the land. They do their thing and they literally eat what they kill. Right. And they're telling you, I don't go there. Because it's bad. You don't go there? Yeah, I would just not go.
00:44:50
Speaker
Logically, but when do we ever listen to people that we feel are inferior to us and back then that's how we felt Not that it was right caveat, but whatever so the town of Glastonbury was a small mountain town located in the Bennington County And that is it got its biggest start or star power if you will Because of the logging railroad operation and there was also a small charcoal making industry right before the Civil War and
00:45:16
Speaker
Houses are booming. There's tons of forest. They're dense forest. So they put the railway up there and they are just cutting down trees, selling them off. That's what they do.
00:45:26
Speaker
The town reached its peak during this time in 1880. Did they make haunted pencils? Nope. 1880. And there was a whopping 241 residents. Unfortunately, the logging business, they burned through the forest very quickly. And they didn't know like all the stuff we know now about rotating and stuff. So there were no mature trees left. They basically used everything that they could get to. They legit just killed everything off.
00:45:53
Speaker
And there's no logging business anymore. So what does the town do now has 250 residents ish 241. So the town decides instead of, you know, dying off because that was what was going to happen. They were going to change their strategy and turn it into a trolley equipped summer resort town.
00:46:12
Speaker
So they you know because they've got the railway already going up and down the mountains for the logging business or just scenery Yeah, gorgeous scenery wouldn't you so they took all the old loggers cabins and made them boarding houses like little Airbnb's in today's world and The different apartments that the logging employees used to work and they turned that into a casino So it's pretty smart, right?
00:46:36
Speaker
And this would have been a fantastic plan. It was a good plan. Except for the people that escaped the no-nos and went into the woods that the Native Americans told you not to go. After being opened just one season, in 1898, there was a flood that took out everything, including most of the railroad tracks making them unusable and the bridges leading up to this area, leaving the resort town and the casino without any tourists.
00:47:04
Speaker
Glastonbury will not. Their residents are resilient, though, and they're not going to give up easy. They're going to rebuild. However, a smallpox outbreak occurs, which stopped all rebuilding efforts in 1903. And that was the final straw for these residents. This is like a conspiracy theory. Right. OK, so you said you didn't believe in haunted places, but really, look at all this.
Current State of Bennington and Local Legends
00:47:26
Speaker
I mean, that could be my house for all I know at this point. Right. Bad things come in threes, guys. Right.
00:47:32
Speaker
So in 1903, smallpox breaks out, decimates the population. The final residents say, you know what? We're good. I'm done. We're going to listen to the Native Americans. We're off this. We're going to go where there's prosperity, where there's no... We're done. We're done. We're done trying. We're done.
00:47:49
Speaker
So they left. More and more people left. And it actually became uninhabited. And the city became unincorporated. And the land mass is now owned by the US National Forest Service Street. There are only six people that currently live there, known about. And people still go to this region to hike because they're crazy. No offense if you're a hiker. I don't like the outdoors.
00:48:15
Speaker
And they said that when you go, there's literally like three houses left that people live in these six people. And there are handwritten signs in front of these houses that say, do not park here or else go away. Like, basically, we're going to shoot you and no one's going to find the body going to say, like, OK, never mind. Yeah. So this tonight's episode is also a detail on why you shouldn't go outdoors to part purpose.
00:48:40
Speaker
Oh, we're still I thought it was over. Oh, no, no, no. I thought maybe for once. Nope. Oh, of course I'm not. We both know I've got way more air to blow. So now into our specialties. Well, actually, first, let's get into the weirdness. Part of this is for you. I do love this. So 1867, there was a man who lived in a cave at the Somerset location off Somerset, that village. So he lived in a cage.
00:49:07
Speaker
And he would come out. I find nothing wrong with people that want to be alone in the wilderness. Well, you know, he spoke. He spoke too soon. Damn it. He would come out of his cave wearing a long coat. He'd go into town and expose himself to the women there while holding a gun. Just to scare them. So maybe not like that. Yeah. And then he would turn around, run back into the mountains, not to be found again. He was supposedly chased out of town.
00:49:34
Speaker
But no one knows where he went, what happened to him. He was dubbed the wild man. And there have been several sightings of him like reported. Mainly as a large crazed man in a coat that would chase you through the forest. That was it. So there's weird weird issue number one.
00:49:55
Speaker
Exposing guy I'm intrigued. Okay. Go. So another situation is the Bennington monster and This story I don't know the stories. I don't like this story. I don't like it one bit. Just gonna preface it So in the olden days while the town's still thriving this is when the casino and the you know the little picturesque Airbnb type situation set up, right a Stagecoach is headed up the mountain full of people
00:50:22
Speaker
And that's, you know, they got the big stagecoach people are inside horses. Right. Okay. So while driving up the mountain, all of a sudden a huge storm comes out, like it starts raining and it's raining harder. There's lightning. There's thunder. The rain is pouring and it ends up washing out part of the road. They're on to where the stagecoach is literally stuck halfway up this mountain in this torrential down port. They're trapped.
00:50:46
Speaker
So the driver gets out off his little perch to go see how bad this downfall of where the roads eroded is. Is there a different path? What's he going to do? He's got all these people. What happens here? So he gets out of the stagecoach, and he's holding his little lantern, and he sees these really large footprints in the mud ahead on the road.
00:51:11
Speaker
Not only were these footprints incredibly large, but still sounds like Bigfoot. It's also. I'm so sorry, allergies. They're also spaced super far apart to where like a normal man could not like his gate is not like one foot and the other foot are so far apart. It's not normal. Right. And they are deep into the mud. But here's the problem. They weigh a lot. Yes. Like enough to really saturate. Yeah. But here's the problem. It's raining.
00:51:41
Speaker
It's torrentially down pouring. Yeah. So it's like mud. But if the footprints are still that clear, close, close. So right about the time he realizes. Whatever this is, is very close. Actually, this is not the story that this is the story for you. This isn't the one that bothers me the most. I just figured out where I was going. OK. So he's already kind of freaking out, but at that point, the horses start freaking out.
00:52:11
Speaker
And animals, no crap. Yes, they do. They know crap. Yes, they do. So the people on the stagecoach at this point are getting concerned. The horses are fidgeting. They're making their little noises. I'm not around horses a lot. I was gorgeous. So the people are getting worried and the driver basically is like, do you see all this? Like, what do you do? Do you see all this? I mean, what do you do? Because you think you're going crazy.
00:52:40
Speaker
So the driver starts really freaking out at this point because the horses are losing it. The people are losing it. They're stuck. And he knows as the horses getting increasingly agitated.
00:52:53
Speaker
Whatever it is, is getting closer. Like, there's a predator close. Well, normally, I was just gonna say, normally, with an animal like that, you're looking at a predatory instinct, where now your victims are getting angrier and angrier. Yes, and that's what the driver knows. They're latched in. That's what the driver knows. We're in trouble.
00:53:11
Speaker
So he tells all the passengers, you got to get out of the coach, help me figure out what's going on. The people are still in the coach and they're leaning out the window at this point to like look at the footprints, the drivers talking about, look at the horses, look around. Everybody's I'd be losing my mind like a horse drawn carriage. How many people were actually in it? Well, you it didn't say, but I just feel like at some point.
00:53:31
Speaker
You wouldn't just like unlatch the horses and say everyone get on we're out because you're in the middle of a huge mountain Like what are you gonna? They've got luggage. I don't know again depends on how many horses horse we out Plus you're safe. I would feel like I would not want to get out in the dense force I want to stay where there's walls around me. I wouldn't in the dense forest Well, I'd want to get to a very nice open area where there is no open area. There's no open area You're up in the mountain. Yeah, but you got to go. So the passengers are freaking out
00:54:01
Speaker
And the coach is telling him, you need to get out. And about that time from the wood side on the back, something slams into the carriage and the carriage starts rocking. And it's dark. It's dark. We don't know what it is. The passengers lose their mind at this point. I could I would I kucky everywhere. I would be wearing shants just.
Bigfoot and Bennington Monster Sightings
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would lose my mind. I know my status. That is poofy old pants for anybody that is not understand term. We came up with a shark week all years ago.
00:54:35
Speaker
So, they start getting out of the coach, and the whole time these people are unloading, something continues to slam into the side of the coach. BAM! BAM! Well, the coach is being hit so hard from the other side, it eventually topples over.
00:54:59
Speaker
OK. And then out of nowhere, a giant creature walks towards them into the light of the land or just standing in front of these people staring at them. Every single person there said that they saw a creature that was at least eight foot tall with dark hair covering his entire body and large bulging eyes staring at him, just staring. Then it turned around and walked back into the woods. Which is the first Bigfoot sighting in Vermont.
00:55:28
Speaker
Well, it'll continue because people continue to see Bigfoot in this in Vermont. Actually, not just Bigfoot. Big feet. There's several. There's a pot. As recently as 2003, Ray Dunfries was driving through the mountains when he saw a giant seven foot tall creature with dark hair covering its body, walking through the forest.
00:55:50
Speaker
You have gone so sci-fi right now. I know, but you love Bigfoot and I heard this and I was like, I got to I got to go here. So there have been multiple Bigfoot sightings throughout this area continually. So anyway, that's where we're at for there. I just heard the Bigfoot and I knew you loved Bigfoot and I had to tell the Bigfoot. But on the murders, let's go to murders real quick. Yes. For anybody that's willing to hear my side of the story, because I do I do watch, you know, I could get sucked into a tampon commercial.
00:56:19
Speaker
just to see how it ends. I just like random crap. But like giants are universally known. Right. They're talked about in all kinds of history, whether you're talking about philosophy, bibles, biblically. Yeah. You know, I'm not going to say that
00:56:43
Speaker
I'm just saying that this is from the girl who watched every single episode of Finding Big Cut. So do not let her pretend like she is not a big fanatic because she is. No, I am. But I also think there's a logical explanation. I do, but they're seriously like people will go camping in these woods now and say they can hear like these groaning, moaning animalistic slash human sounds like it is big book country. But here's the deal. You look at the size of some of the people in athletics that we have now. Yeah.
00:57:11
Speaker
how deep their voices right okay so add a couple feet to that and a little bit more girth all right and how much more sound effects are you gonna have you put you push a kilo nil walking through a muddy field his gates gonna be gigantic and those exactly Paul Prince are huge
00:57:33
Speaker
So the murders in April on April 4th 1982 a Mill worker in a part of Glastonbury called Fayetteville named Henry McDonald Murdered John Crowley out of nowhere while working in the mill guy literally just went crazy beat the man's skull in with a rock our piece of wood depending on where you see and then ran away and
00:57:58
Speaker
He was found in North Norwalk, Connecticut, and he confessed right away saying that he had to do it because the voices in his head told him to. They put him in an asylum in Waterbury, and he escaped by sneaking onto a railway car and vanished, never to be heard or seen from again. Where is he? We don't know. So what you're telling me is security top notch. Yeah, 1982. Not a good, not a good. Not a good year. So in 1897,
00:58:28
Speaker
You said, wait, you said 1982. Now we're jumping back again. Oh, we're jumping all over. We're in way back. I'm just telling you lots of stories from this area. All right. Yeah. So 1897, 40 year old John Harbor Harbor was hunting and murdered in his deer camp.
00:58:45
Speaker
He was very well liked.
Mysterious Disappearances and Murders
00:58:47
Speaker
Everyone knew and loved John. He was hunting with his brother and a friend. And they became separated in the woods, which my entire family are hunters. That's kind of what you do. You follow your own trail. You do your own thing. You all meet back up at camp. Right. So John's brother and their friends stayed together like they were by each other. And they said all of a sudden they heard a rifle blast. And John yelled, I've been shot.
00:59:15
Speaker
So they took off in the direction they heard John's voice, because remember this is a dense forest. So you're going to be able to hear someone closer by, but not far away, right? Yeah, but all the echoes, how do you find it? They couldn't. They couldn't find him at all. They searched everywhere. And then 11 a.m. the following morning, they see his legs sticking out from a cedar tree and his gun is neatly placed beside him. There were no drag marks on the ground. He was just sitting on the ground, leaned up against this tree and that was it.
00:59:46
Speaker
There was never any evidence. No one was ever charged. Just mysteriously, he got shot. Wasn't any of the guns there. No one knows what happened. Like some random guy suffering. Was it syphilis? No. Oh, no. You go crazy. No. Trust me, there's multiple member. The Native Americans say this is a curse to land.
01:00:07
Speaker
So we were in the 1900s and back to the 1800s. Oh yeah, we're jumping around. Now we are going to go kind of in order, but not from where we just were. I want to tell you about the disappearances. This is where for me, it gets spooky. Increasingly so. So November 11th, 1943, Carl Herrick was a 37, 37 year old hunter with loads of experience hunting. He went into the woods with his cousin Henry.
01:00:38
Speaker
At some point, once again, the two men got separated, tracking different animals, their gut, however hunters do it, I don't know. And as usual, they're gonna meet back at their campsite when they're done hunting. Henry finishes his hunt, goes back to the campsite, and Carl's nowhere to be seen. After a little while later, Carl never shows up. So Henry immediately contacts police, and there's a massive search of the area for three days. Three days, they search for the sky and nothing.
01:01:08
Speaker
On day three of the search, Henry stumbles across Carl's body's in the woods. This is the, ow, I don't like this. I'm just gonna tell you that right now. Stumbles across Carl's body in the woods. There, his rifle, his hunting rifle, Carl's, is leaning against a tree. Just like the last guys. But it's far away from the body. Carl's body is laying there, dead.
01:01:38
Speaker
They're extremely large bear tracks right near the body. But if you look at the body, there's not a single scratch or mark on him. There's nothing on this guy's body.
01:01:50
Speaker
No gunshot, no bruising, nothing. He's just dead. Well, they always tell you to play dead when interacting with a bear, but he was a heart attack. You would think so, right? You want to know what the autopsy said his cause of death was? A brain aneurysm. He was squeezed to death. He was squeezed so hard, his ribs broke, puncturing his lungs. Squeezed so hard now.
01:02:19
Speaker
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm pretty sure, like, pythons, anacondas, anything capable of squeezing someone's human life. It would have eaten him. Not necessarily, you think? Just as a threat. Like, OK, so like it was in the mountains. There's no freaking anaconda. That's what I'm trying to say. Like, typically a snake, if it felt threatened, is going to attack. Right. Then how did his gun get just leaned over there? Exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's why I said it wouldn't be any kind of a weird
01:02:49
Speaker
Snake all right, so you're still a disbeliever. I can see it in your eyes. Let's continue. All right We're gonna go that was 1943. We're gonna jump to 1945 midi rivers He is a 74 year old. So he's old but a very respected Hunting and like hiking guide through this mountain trail
01:03:11
Speaker
He had actually recently had a physical, he was great health, even though he's older. He knew the areas, he knew the trails, he was very experienced, Hunter. And he vanished, never to be heard from again. He was on a week ending trip. There was no body. He was on a week ending trip at Hell Hollow in the southwest woods of Gatsbury, leading a group.
01:03:35
Speaker
And they were on their way back to the campsite and the group of men said MIDI started like Acting weird on the way back to the campsite like almost kind of paranoid He started walking faster and leaving them behind. I've heard a lot of stories about Like okay, I'm not gonna sit here and say I believe any of it but Encounters where people feel nauseous. Yeah and disoriented well
01:04:05
Speaker
This is Alaska, though, so I don't. So many starts pulling away and he's like, he's the guy. These people have paid him and he's literally like walking quicker to leave them in the trail. So they assume maybe he's got a peer or something, but he literally just leaves them behind.
01:04:26
Speaker
So they continue to follow the trail to the campsite, but when they get to the campsite, Mitty's not there. But they never passed him on the trail. They would have passed him, right? I just feel like I wouldn't have left my guide behind. The guide left him. He was up ahead. Did you not follow him? They were, but they never passed him. And when they got to camp, he wasn't there. How do you never pass him? And then he's never there at camp. There's the question.
01:04:51
Speaker
So a huge search party came to this one. Over 300 locals, Fort Devon's army, they sent overt soldiers. They searched for eight days. Nothing. The only thing on day eight was a single shotgun shell found near a little creek. That was it. He was never seen or heard from again. His remains have never been found. Nothing gone. Vanished. Right.
01:05:18
Speaker
So here is where for me, like, I don't like the squeezing to death, but this is where it starts getting weird. So December. It hasn't already. Right. Right. Weirder, I guess you could say. Yeah, you get that Red Bull and then go to bed. I will freak. Got my weed gummies. So whoa, they're medicinal.
01:05:43
Speaker
They are medicinal. Anyway, December 1st, 1946. Paula was an 18 year old who was a sophomore at Bennington College. She was the oldest of four daughters.
01:05:57
Speaker
originally from Connecticut. Her father was a very well-known engineer, like had tons of patents for like home appliances, very wealthy. She was a painter and artist. She loved to hike on December 1st. She had decided not to go home for the break at college and she had just finished her shift at the dining hall and she decided to go on a little walk.
01:06:19
Speaker
So she put on her red park and she headed out and she was headed down what is known as the long trail on this this mountain. I just want to intervene.
01:06:29
Speaker
only in saying like not conspiracy theories, Bigfoot, whatever, but like nature in and of itself, I just don't find hiking solo smart as a as a good idea. But this agreed 100 percent. And this that's any mountain trail. Yeah, no, I don't. Yeah. But this mountain trail was people hiked it a lot. It was the long trail. Um.
01:06:53
Speaker
And a lot of people saw her on this trail this day and they remember her specifically because of her bright red jacket. An elderly couple stated that they were just a few paces behind her and she went around a bend in the trail and they're like, you know, maybe five, 10 feet behind him when they turn gone. There's not a trace. No red jacket can be seen. Um, they kind of turn around and she's just vanished.
01:07:20
Speaker
When her roommate got home that night, she's not there, but she figures maybe she's at the library studying. Who knows? On Monday, when she's not there for classes, her roommate freaks out, contacts administration, contact security, and a search party immediately. The college shut down.
01:07:41
Speaker
Right. And a thousand people showed up to help find this girl. Volunteers, police from Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York all came to help because Vermont does not have a state police. Like at this point in time, we're in 1946. This case is actually is accredited to helping Vermont get a state police about a year later is when it started and was like instituted. Her father was very local about the lack of assistance or resources.
01:08:09
Speaker
He offered up a $5,000 reward back in 1946. I didn't look up the inflation, but pretty pretty substantial, I would say. For any information, her father did everything to find her. He he searched. He offered money. He contacted the FBI. He went to psychics like anything to find his daughter. He was destroyed. Helicopters were flown over the area. They found a big gravel pit. They dug it up because a gravel pit you're not going to see like recent. Right.
01:08:38
Speaker
They nothing. Never a trace. Just finished. Vanished. Red jacket was never found. The only thing that was ever kind of ever assumes that like that body was just consumed. There was a couple.
01:08:54
Speaker
Viola Maxwell and Frank who saw her on the trail that day The couple got in a huge fight when they got home Frank left stormed out in anger Didn't return till the next day had no alibi a lot of people in the surrounding Terry I think he was involved. But here's the thing There were multiple people on the trail that day And if I were a betting woman and I looked up like I don't know I
01:09:20
Speaker
wild animals. But you're not going to hear it. It doesn't matter. But no one heard anything like she was there and then nothing. I agree. But here's the thing. You get a 700 pound bear that takes one swat at you. You're not going to be conscious anymore. No, but you're going to scream when you see the 700 pound bear. If I would. If you see it. If you see it. All right. That's fine. That's fine. I'll give you that. Thank you. Let's go some more. They don't call them predators for nothing, Faith.
01:09:50
Speaker
So let's go with this one. Let me see where am I at? All right. We're back. Lisa needed to take a mental break because she got confused easily. All right. So now we are going to jump to 1949. And I'm going to tell you about James E. Telford. He was a vet that lived in the Bennington Soldiers' Home. And he had traveled to St. Albans for a visit to friends, whatnot.
01:10:19
Speaker
and he is traveling back on a bus, not a train, like a Greyhound bus, back to the Bennington Soldier's Home. He was in a seat, there's about 15 passengers on this bus, the driver's on this bus, when they come to the stop in Bennington, James is gone. His luggage and his ticket are still right there in his seat, and there's no sign of him. But it wasn't in the mountains.
01:10:47
Speaker
Passengers literally said like he was there. They all saw him. He was sitting there sleeping and He just wasn't anymore the area the driver said that they they made a stop and He looked back to make sure everybody was situated before he takes off again, right? He saw James sleeping in his seat closed the door drives to the Bittington exit Opens the door guys gone that the in-between space was in the Bittington triangle
01:11:19
Speaker
He has never been seen or heard from again. And what makes this a little weird to me is the date he went missing, December 1st, 1943. Three years to the day Paula Weldon went missing in her red coat. To the day. He just disappears.
01:11:43
Speaker
Then we're going to jump another year to 1950. Paul Jepsen is an eight year old little boy who vanished on October 12th. That's not OK. No. He was accompanying his mother to tend to the hogs on a farm where his family worked. He stayed in the back of the truck to play while his mother went ahead to feed the hogs. And when she came back, the little boy is just gone. She looked everywhere for him thinking she'd find him. He's a little eight year old boy playing right dirt.
01:12:14
Speaker
Never could find him. There's just no sign. Huge search commences. And the Coast Guard even brought in planes to search the area. But he just vanished. Rumors circle circulated. The newspaper even printed the parents probably killed him and fed him to the hogs, which kudos to you having absolutely no class. What? Yeah, but I understand what they're saying because hogs are all right. They literally everything. Nothing. Yeah, they leave nothing blood hounds were brought in.
01:12:45
Speaker
And they traced this little boy's scent all the way to a crossroads where it just went missing. The scent trial just stopped. So a lot of people think that maybe a passing car grabbed him.
01:12:59
Speaker
Lending to this theory was a pair of men's gloves sitting on a rock right near where the trail, the scent trail ended. His father would tell investigators and friends and basically anybody that listened that for a few days before this little few days before Paul went missing,
01:13:22
Speaker
out of nowhere, he just started nonstop, like constantly talking about the mountains leading up to the days he disappeared. He kept saying things like the lore of the mountains, the mountains are calling me, I need to go to the mountains, when he'd never been interested in the mountains before. The place, here's where it gets me, I'm getting Google bumps. The place where his scent trail stopped,
01:13:51
Speaker
is the last spot Paula Weldon was ever seen in the woods. And if that's not creepy enough for you, the reason why the mom was so sure she'd find this little boy is because he was wearing a bright red jacket that day and she thought she'd be able to see him through the woods. Just like Paula was wearing her bright red jacket the day she disappeared. 16 days later, on October 28th,
01:14:21
Speaker
53-year-old Frida Langer, who is an experienced survivalist and hiker, was camping with her husband and cousin near the Somerset Reserve. Her and her cousin, Herbert, went for a hike that day. They left the husband behind. He tweaked his knee earlier that day, and he didn't want to risk really injuring it, so he just stayed behind. About half a mile into the hike, Frida slipped and falls into a string. She's not hurt, but she's drenched.
01:14:52
Speaker
She tells her cousin hey stay here. I'm gonna run back to camp. I'm gonna change because I'm not wearing wet shoes and clothes all day I'm gonna change. I'll be right back Herbert says good sits down to take a rest by the stream for you to take soft back Herbert waits and he waits And it's just been too long at this point who knows what those two are doing at camp But he's not waiting here like a dumb dumb anymore. He's going back to camp So it shows up at camp The only problem is the only person there's mr. Langer
01:15:22
Speaker
Frida never made it back to the campsite. The husband never saw her again. A massive search again ensues. The Connecticut Coast Guard again comes to the rescue.
01:15:34
Speaker
A different National Guard, which I didn't make any sense on these abbreviations, so I don't know who they are. All sent soldiers, helicopters came in to help to search the area for Frida. Locals came in using their personal planes to assist in the search. For the next two weeks, five different searches were organized and conducted with over 300 individuals per search, plus planes, plus helicopters pouring through the area. Nothing was found, not a trace.
01:16:03
Speaker
Six months later, on May 12th, Frida's body was found. 3.5 miles from the campsite by the reservoir that had been searched multiple times by all these people. Her body was an advanced decomp, so far advanced they couldn't even tell what caused her death. There was a doctor there.
01:16:24
Speaker
And he said there was water nearby, so obviously she drowned, which was fine. Everybody just accepted that. But again, if she drowned, how did she end up where she was after already being served after already being searched? Someone did that to her. Obviously, right. OK, so then in October and we're almost done, I swear, Lisa, I can see you're fine. You're fine. I'm just trying to it's a lot connect dots, I guess, and it's not connecting.
01:16:54
Speaker
No. So in October 1981, three hunters disappeared, never to be found again. Like, that's all we know. These three men went up to a hunting trip. Gone. People who go to the woods now say that upon entering the woods, they become disoriented or confused. Some state that they lose chunks of time. And to this day, people will not wear a single stitch of red into the woods.
Psychological Effects of Fear and Mystery
01:17:23
Speaker
OK, so. First off, I'm going to start by saying, is that they end? Yes. OK. So first off, I'm going to start by saying like theories have a way of interrupting your mindset. OK. And when when you get placed in a situation where you feel like you're going into the unknown. Right. Right. Fear has a way of into the unknown.
01:17:52
Speaker
That was awful. I never said I'm a good singer. I just enjoy it. That makes me like musicals. Well, we do anyway. But when you go in, you hear stories. OK, so like let's say you're going into some place that you feel it's haunted and you can survive the night.
01:18:13
Speaker
can win X amount of money, but nobody ever spends the night, right? Right. And it's because you're so built up and you're programmed to assume, right, something's going to happen. Right. So every
01:18:30
Speaker
in whatever even is something old house foundations right logically it's going to be a thing logically speaking like this is a mountain trail we live like i said we live north near the Appalachian Trail there's several people up there that you just don't there's entire ghost towns where people like mining towns or whatnot but you can go do today they're just completely vacant cobwebs dust like nothing well i was going to say that being said but there's there's an island that
01:18:55
Speaker
You can't even approach like it's literally banned. Yeah. I think I know which one you're talking about. Yeah. Because the fire on you, bows, arrows, whatever. Yeah. If you make landfall, you're dead. Yeah. OK. So I can. Again, guys, there are so many places that are completely unexplored. OK. So whether you're talking Vermont or Tennessee or Colorado, like
01:19:26
Speaker
Guys, you got people living on the equator. Yeah. Who survive treacherous winters? Well, that's what I'm saying. Treacherous anything. And if you think, OK, look. There are natives in certain places that can get blow darts. Yeah. That have been smeared. Yeah. And my tika.
01:19:49
Speaker
OK, frog, they call it the poison dart. Yeah, I know you're talking about. And they collapse. Right. They get picked up and taken off. Gone. But and that's what I'm saying, like.
01:20:01
Speaker
This is a wild mountain range. There's six people that are known to live there. How many people just live out there? And quite frankly, if you're living out there in the wild and you're a complete survivalist, you're not cutting your hair, you're not shaving your face. And have you ever seen a ghillie suit? That cybersuit? It's got nature in it. So if you look, but what I'm saying is like, there's all these big foot siding. It's probably some guy that lives in the woods. It's made a coat out of whatever. But there's some weird things.
01:20:31
Speaker
I don't agree with I don't want to do it, but again You're looking at animals Who have
01:20:40
Speaker
generations of experience. Well, I'm not saying I think they're people. I think there are people up there taking them as well. Like when you say wild man, I don't disagree with that either. No. Like you've and again, all of it comes back to predatorial instinct. Right. But I'm just saying some of those cases, I really could attribute to a wild animal like.
01:21:03
Speaker
There's a lot to get you on the back of the head. Yeah, you don't bite down. What are you gonna do freeze? Freeze if they get you right on the back of the neck or in the front of the neck I would like to stay for the 150th time on this podcast. This is why I don't go outside
01:21:24
Speaker
But but I'm not saying that like none of these cases could be attributed to wild animals because lots of them could be. I mean, you look at it. Well, we've we've done helicopter searches. We've done ground searches. We don't know what half these animals are capable of. But half the animals aren't going to eat a jacket either. We've also witnessed jaguars pull their prey deer antelope out of the tree into a tree.
01:21:53
Speaker
But you would still think. For the sake of argument, devil's advocate, however you want to say it, there would have been some disturbances that they didn't notice. Like the drag marks are blood. And you're telling me that it is a dense. I do not think it is big fun, Lisa. Are you a foes?
01:22:14
Speaker
I but I do think it's interesting. The only one that really bothers me is the guy that was squeezed to death. But all the others, it's just the the reason why I think it's a person and not an animal.
01:22:26
Speaker
The fact that the dates align are the articles of clothing align. Do you know what I mean? Like it could have been someone that a deserter from the the battle at Bennington that lived up the mountains, raised a family up the mountains. They're all wild people and they needed a wife for one of their sons. So the son loved a wife. But if you sit here and you talk about human capability, you're looking at a bodybuilder who would be able to squeeze the life out of a human.
01:22:54
Speaker
And you're talking about people that live in the wild. They have to they have to cut down their own. Everything is physical labor out there. There's a lot of that going on in Alaska. They're not pudgy. I know. Have you seen that show? I told you to watch some of them are whatever that show was. I don't remember, but it was really good. I'm saying I'm going to I'm going to leave it here and I'm going to make my statement. I think that there are things that exist that we don't know about.
01:23:20
Speaker
And I'm not saying Bigfoot. I'm not saying I just thought you'd like the Bigfoot reference. That was amazing. I thought it was the reason I brought
Human and Animal Interaction Theories
01:23:29
Speaker
up Bigfoot was because I know you like Bigfoot. Well, if you want to get like scientific, I do not go there to a lot of crap. But what I'm saying is if you honestly and truly believe that it's a human.
01:23:45
Speaker
I wouldn't put it past being a different type of human. Well, and if the Native Americans like back back, we're talking 1700s, the Native Americans are saying this is a cursed land, not for a good reason. It could have been a different tribe that use a different kind of warfare that scared them off of their territory. They could be a whole lot bigger.
01:24:04
Speaker
And a hell of a lot stronger. You don't know, but I do just think it's an interest like that. All those like the Bermuda Triangle, the Bennington Triangle, there's a triangle in Massachusetts. Like it's just interesting. No, really, it's everywhere. Yeah, there's lots of them, but it's just interesting. It is. It's very interesting. So you when it comes to like human disappearances, everybody wants an answer, but there's not one. Yeah, there's not always. I watched an episode of River Monsters not long ago about a ship that fell.
01:24:33
Speaker
And they were like, well, what were these people like the survivors? What were they talking about? Like some of them were talking about puncture wounds. Some of them were talking about being pulled into the depth. Some of them were. Guys, there is no way of knowing the capability of this planet. No, not even a little bit. Agreed.
01:24:57
Speaker
But I just wanted to do something a little different. I was cute. Just like you did. I don't know how I thought only because it frustrates me that I like your story so much because like I want an answer. There's not one. And there's not. And you know, it is a huge mountain terrain that literally six people that we know of live there. So, you know, I mean, you'll never find those bodies. You'll never get answers. I mean,
01:25:22
Speaker
Most of these people are 150 years old now, like the bodies are they're dust. Yeah, I was going to say and say like earlier when you were talking about the girl that just disappeared, like what what was the terrain she was on? It was a it was a it was off the side of a cliff. No, it was a cut path. It's called the long path. And there were other people on the path that day. And the thing that's the thing I do think is weird about the Bennington Triangle, all the disappearances I told you about almost all of them happened on the long path.
01:25:51
Speaker
Almost all of them happened between three and four p.m. Which is weird because it's not night. It's not dark. It's a time where other people are there. Other people are around. Other people are sitting here and you're talking about three or four p.m. But depending on the time of year, you could be looking at dusk. You could. But I just it's what I'm saying is it's not early in the morning. It's not late at night. It's smack dab in the middle of the day.
01:26:19
Speaker
on this. And I mean, logically, it's smack dab in the middle of the day at the same location ish, the same trail heading. So obviously someone's hunting there at that point. Well, except for like the train station people. Sorry. Yeah, the bus while I was talking. There's the bus incidents.
01:26:40
Speaker
and the the stagecoach. For me, it's it's kind of hard to attribute one for the other. Yeah. I would say some of them could very well be a freak accident. Oh, yeah. And some of them could actually be like. But you would you think if it was a freak accident, you'd find the body because there were people around and searching.
01:27:01
Speaker
But when you talk about OK, they weren't all like huge, but I'm going to get off on my like little so box if you want to call it that. But like I thought you said you were going to say that last thing and be done. It's too late now. You are. I started a whole new conversation. Just wanted to point out I'm not the only windbag here mother nature.
01:27:21
Speaker
There is no bound that she can't cross. So I stay indoors. So even if there's a dead body in the woods, right? Mm hmm. Decomp, whatever. But if it's the right circumstance at the right moment, at the right time, it could be completely ingested by bugs, right? Yeah. Not upon by firing foxes or wolves or whatever.
01:27:46
Speaker
dismembered and taken to different places wherever. Oh, it's Mother Nature, literally like I've seen ants dismember insects on my back porch and 150 to 200 pound person. Then someone else is there within 10 minutes and there's no trace. But again, you don't know how far they were taken.
01:28:12
Speaker
And when you're looking at an animal like a bear, especially anything above 200, 300 pounds. No, you you wouldn't even like they could literally if they grabbed you by the back. Uh huh. I mean, they can carry what 10 times their weight. Yeah. You know, I have the average insect. You want you want to know what I have to say about this episode? Stay inside and stay alive.
01:28:39
Speaker
I'm just sitting here and I'm thinking about all these animals. I'm making a shirt. Stay inside. Stay alive. Unless you're in Australia, then you're screwed wherever you go. Yeah, you you guys have gigantic spiders and a horrifically terrifying snake. I don't know. But I love Australia. I mean, Latin America and Africa don't look so good either. Yeah.
01:29:00
Speaker
I've never been there. I've been to Australia. And I was terrified the entire time that a snake was going to eat me, even though I was in like the middle of the city. Like the snakes wouldn't bother me, more or less like the spiders that just appear out of nowhere. Yeah. And they're big as your head. You want to talk about gruesome? Mm hmm. Stay inside, stay alive. Hashtag. Hashtag. Faith is a wimp. I'm not a wimp. I just know. I just know my boundaries.
01:29:28
Speaker
couch air conditioner. That was good. I've got so many opinions.
Podcast Dynamics and Final Thoughts
01:29:31
Speaker
You usually open a park at some point because it's a park ask part par par whatever you just see. This is why I don't run the podcast. Give her a minute. Let her get herself together.
01:29:45
Speaker
No, I still don't know. Like literally. Patreon. Patreon. Thank you. Actually, I've got our Patreon set up. I just haven't opened it yet because we've been too consumed with trying to do multiple episodes a week that we're failing miserably at. I just think it's funny that you took it to like very sci fi kind of weird. But, you know, I think there are unexplained things in the world there. We don't know everything. Oh, heck no. And I think that, you know, unsolved cases.
01:30:14
Speaker
interest me but things like this where while I think that there's probably a logical explanation there's also that touch of X files to it really well it's because it's unknown like yeah you know how does somebody disappear with no trace yeah with nothing there's no with people around no yeah
01:30:37
Speaker
I don't know. It's crazy. I just I don't know. I heard this story a really long time ago and I like the only thing I can think of is somebody's hiding in the tree. They drop a noose around their neck and then just yank them up. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm really I should go now because now I feel like I'm kind of a creep. They all know you're a creep, Lisa. Anyone that's listened to more than one episode knows.
01:31:02
Speaker
You're a creep. Yeah, but that makes sense now. So anyway. Anyway. Well, that's our episode. Yeah. Hope you enjoyed the break from a little bit of the the norm. Yeah. We like to keep you on your toes. Keep you guessing. But it was a good night. It was. And we only have one more left before we get to get out of the United States.
01:31:27
Speaker
I'm gonna have to come up with some kind of garbage. Oh, I already know where I'm going. Actually, I don't. I've got like 10 cases. I want to say them in at this point. Oh, no, I'm talking about when I get out of the United States, like I've got 10 places I want to go and I don't know which one I'm going to do. I'm so excited. And I'm excited to only have to record my one every other week and just listen to you every other week.
01:31:47
Speaker
Not listening to you say, but having a break. Yeah, I'm a jerk. I know it. I've talked for an hour. How are my stories always so frickin long? Well, I have a lot of opinions and that's it. You give too many opinions. If you know my stories, there are times where I don't even say you've already said my stories are long because of your opinions. I told you going before we switched on two years that I still had like a lot of info.
01:32:17
Speaker
Yeah, see, I don't care about time restraints. I enjoy my stories. I get way too in my stories and I want to tell you everything about my source. I actually trimmed this down a lot. I threw away three pages of notes. I just get pissed off a lot because I have questions and then she's like, I'll get to it later or you're dead wrong. And I don't like that response at all.
01:32:39
Speaker
are sometimes you say things like, oh, you just opened your mouth three sentences early. You're going to eat those words. Yeah, that's that's the most. I do that a lot. Oh, well, you know, when you're unapologetically a loud mouth like us, whatever. What do you do? Happens. So when it comes to haunted or fictional, cursed, slashed, not proven fictional. Where do you go?
01:33:08
Speaker
Stay inside. Stay alive. That's where you go. That's where you go. All right. Well, have a good night, guys. Have a good night, guys. Bye. Bye.