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Episode 13 - Death and Legacy
1.1k Plays4 months ago
Fact: We're all going to die. Question: Do we make things, things that can last across centuries, as a way of establishing a legacy for ourselves. Do you think "this piece will likely outlive me" as you make? Have you thought, "I wonder who will own this some day and how they will use it, or whether they'll be curious who I am?". Coming to terms with our own eventual death and the question of making and legacy is on the docket for discussion today and we think it's a FASCINATING question, you should join us.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Tone Setting
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome one and all to your favorite new podcast. Actually, we're not that new anymore. Of woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, and I'm joined by my illustrious and illuminating two co-hosts, Eric Curtis, a full-time furniture maker and content creator, and Mary Tsai, who is just back from a European vacation to Germany. She's going to enlighten us about her trip in the after show. I just made that up.
00:00:46
Speaker
AI designer by day, contemporary furniture maker by night. Mary, I have no idea if you're going to regale us with your trip highlights, but I just, well.
00:00:53
Speaker
I absolutely can. For sure. For a podcast that's not so new, you better recognize you got to turn that fucking game down, buddy. You are blowing our eardrums out right now. I am. I love that energy. Love that energy, though. We're going to keep that. This is a one-take, Jake. Oh, this is those sweet bass tones. Oh, that's better. That's better. OK. Oh, he's got over excited. I'm so sorry. That's all right. I don't understand that. OK. Welcome, everyone, to Woodworking is Bullshit. As you know, we always start with
00:01:22
Speaker
a question.
Compulsion to Create: Objects vs. Mortality
00:01:25
Speaker
And today's question came about in our group chat where Eric said, Hey, maybe we should talk about death. I've been listening to dashboard a lot lately, and we need to talk about death.
00:01:45
Speaker
And Mary's like, yeah, I'm in as long as I can dress emo during the episode, which she didn't. I'm so sad that I did not remember. So beyond it's about death, it's not really about death. Well, it relates to death. And Eric raised the following question. And he said, are we compelled to make objects that outlive us?
00:02:14
Speaker
as a way of contending with our own pending mortality. So in other words, you're gonna die, and do you want your objects to outlive you as a way of feeling that you have a legacy and that you'll be relevant beyond your living years? I toss it to you two to react to Eric's brilliant statement.
00:02:37
Speaker
Brilliant is generous. It is a stretch. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm brilliant, but the statement, I don't know.
00:02:49
Speaker
I think my initial instinct is to say yes. And I don't even know that it needs to be an intentional thing. I think our instinct is to create, or those of us who have the instinct to create, instinctively create things in the beginning that are a development of skill. And then as we gain skill, we attempt whether, like we intuit the attempt to make things that outlive us.
00:03:15
Speaker
Because I think that's just part of the human drive. I think that's part of the creative drive. And then it may just start with a shift in materials. You may go from wood to stone. Or if you want to go down the epoxy road, that is an option to make things that outlive you. We're not going down the epoxy road. I'm not making a moral value judgment here. I'm just saying it's a shift in materials. And that may be a thing that you think about.
00:03:44
Speaker
And then as you continue to make them, I think you become aware of what you're doing. And yeah, I just think it's an inevitable growth into the creative process. All right, Eric, when you make an object and you know it's going to outlive you, does that give you a warm and fuzzy?
Legacy: Personal and Social Perspectives
00:04:01
Speaker
At first it did, not anymore. Now I'm of the opinion that my aim is to do the thing that I need to do in the moment and whether the thing lives 500 years or 50 years, I honestly could care less. Mary, do you think about the duration of your objects?
00:04:24
Speaker
I feel like I have a very different answer to this because I don't really give a shit. I don't think about it that much, no, because I don't know. Maybe it's me not putting enough value on it, but I don't think my stuff's important enough to matter to someone else after I'm gone. For me, I've also just not had that kind of object in my life of legacy being important. The only thing I can think of is my violin.
00:04:53
Speaker
Otherwise, the stuff that I make, I don't care. Someone could just burn it when I die. Actually, I demand that it all be burned the day that I die as a tree. Viking funeral. Yeah, absolutely. So I have not really considered it before. And it's not really crossed my mind, to be totally honest.
00:05:12
Speaker
Okay, you used the L word legacy, okay? And we're gonna, I think that's a lot of what we're gonna discuss today, which is legacy of makers, legacy of artists. But I guess I'm sort, both of you said it's not that important to me. So Eric, why did you bring up this question if it's not that important to you?
00:05:38
Speaker
Well, hold on. You didn't answer the question. So you do it first. I'm trying to just be like, oh, you guys are so interesting. Let me not tell you anything about myself. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, I think about, I think about legacy and I, I think this is at first when I, when you brought up the idea of death and what you make living beyond you, I thought about the idea of personal legacy, my legacy.
00:06:02
Speaker
And I thought about my daughter inheriting my high chest or things in the house that I've made. And that will mean a lot to her. So I instinctively thought about personal legacy, meaning me, children, family, you know, that kind of thing, your reputation and, you know, values. Like it was all about me, me, me.
00:06:24
Speaker
Then, I had a conversation today with one of my close friends, William Heher, who is the bass player from the band Mr. Wives. Wow, so cool. Do you know Will? Do you know Mr. Wives? I love Mr. Wives. Totally know who they are. They're my favorite email band. Eric doesn't know them.
00:06:49
Speaker
Eric obviously has no idea who Mr. Wives is. But for any of the listeners out there, Will Heher is the bass player for Mr. Wives. And him and I became friends because he's a woodworker. And when he contacted me out of the blue, I'll just give you how we met, he contacted me out of the blue on Instagram. And he's like, man, I love your work. I love everything you do. And if you ever want to see my band play,
00:07:13
Speaker
in Boston, you know, there's gonna be tickets for you. Absolutely. Just say the word. And I didn't know who this person was. I'm like, who's the stranger? Can I get in on that, please? Yeah, absolutely. You absolutely could. Absolutely, Mary. 100%. So Will said, and I didn't know Will at the time. And he's like, yeah, if you ever want to see my band play. And I reacted like, what? Like, what do you mean to see my band play? Like, I don't know you. You're a stranger. I don't know your band. I don't know you, bitch. The fucking audacity of this band. Right?
00:07:42
Speaker
And then he's like, we're playing at the Bank of America Pavilion. And I was like, Oh, because I was like, that's a real thing. So yeah, so I at the time, no funny. Wait, let me finish the story. So I googled like William Heher and bass player. And it came up as the bass player of Mr. Wives. And I had already been listening to them. So of course I like fangirled in the moment. I was like,
00:08:11
Speaker
So it turns out I loved their music. My cousin Amelia had already introduced me to their music. I'd been listening to it for years. I got my wife into it all before he contacted me. So when the bass player reached out to me, I was like, what are the chances of this? It's unbelievable. Anyway, we've gone to his shows every time he comes to Boston.
00:08:31
Speaker
And it's a great time. So I was talking to him today about this idea of legacy. So now he's when he's playing with the band, he's a bass player and otherwise he's a woodworker. All right. Very interesting. And I brought up the idea of legacy and Will and I had an amazing hour long discussion.
00:08:47
Speaker
about legacy. And Will brought up, because he works for a whole series of artists, and he does woodworking for their installations and a lot of their work. And these are very successful artists. He brought up the idea of-
00:09:02
Speaker
Well, they're not on tour the whole year. They're on tour just a small fraction of the year. And otherwise he's woodworking. Will brought up this idea. And like I said, I went to the idea of personal legacy, like my daughter, myself, what do I want? You all right? He's like, what about the legacy of being part of a larger movement? Social legacy.
00:09:21
Speaker
Oh, I was like, if this doesn't scream white privilege, the fact that I went to my personal legacy and we'll have like the broader forethought to say, what about a cultural legacy? Or Eric, what did you say? A social legacy?
00:09:36
Speaker
social legacy like what about being part like if your art or your work is part of a cultural legacy or social legacy like racial or LGBTQ or feminine like that kind of a legacy is a very different animal than thinking about your own personal self and to be honest I was a little
00:09:55
Speaker
ashamed that I hadn't thought about larger like legacy, like social and issue legacy. And I was just like thinking about myself and my daughter. And if that doesn't scream white privilege, I don't know what does because I was like kind of flabbergasted that I hadn't had a more broad open-mindedness, but like Will and I had this amazing discussion. So look, you know, is that something that's resonates more like a social legacy than a personal legacy?
00:10:24
Speaker
I think that's a really interesting component. I wonder, I'm unsure if white privilege is the right term.
00:10:34
Speaker
I think that there is a social aspect to being a part of a smaller group, right? The group that is not currently on top and you and I as white men and straight white men at that tend to be, you know, at the place at the top. But there is like that social legacy is vital. It's really important to be a part of a thing that's bigger than yourself. But I think the American culture
00:11:03
Speaker
historically has been, for lack of a better phrase, about rugged individualism. So I don't think it's inappropriate for an American person or even just a person in the Western world to think about the individual legacy
00:11:19
Speaker
as much as the social legacy. I could be wrong in that. I haven't really thought about that. That's an interesting thing to sit with. But well, I guess I didn't find thinking about my own legacy. I didn't find that as compelling as if I was part of some movement that could forever change the way like a culture is thought about or, you know, well, that's amazing.
00:11:41
Speaker
That's the social creature in you. And I think that's like that is a part of being human. What is the club that you belong to that drives you to do a thing? Right. So I think for me, that club has always been like woodworking like we woodworkers come in all shapes and sizes and forms and backgrounds. Right. And so this thing that that drives me to make like I think about the legacy of moving the craft forward. And that can be like I feel like that gets thrown around a lot. The
00:12:11
Speaker
The the history of the craft in brief is like the age of the carpenter was basically everything before refined furniture, right? It's like a person in their barn just fucking nailing wood together that they felled from the backyard in order to create functional furniture.
00:12:28
Speaker
And then you have the age of the cabinet maker, which is where you start to get a bit more refined and you put things together in ways and you understand what expansion and contraction and things actually start to have shape and form. And then you have the age of the woodworker, which is like we're still within that age, but like basically.
00:12:47
Speaker
Queen Anne or Chip and Dale on, like whatever that kind of, when it starts to get highly refined and things get complicated and shit gets wild, right? Like that is the legacy that we belong to as woodworkers. And now we're transitioning into something new with the advent of new technologies and how that's being implemented so quickly. And I don't know where it's gonna go, but that's like, that's the social legacy that I think about is how do we,
00:13:13
Speaker
Effect change in this craft while holding on to the core
00:13:18
Speaker
kind of moral values of making objects. Wow, I love that. I know I'm part of a woodworking tradition, and I know I feel an obligation to it. That's why I've been thinking about and giving lectures about design, because it's my way to give back. I don't profit from it much monetarily. It's definitely cutting into my time for other things, but I feel like I owe it to this field to give back.
00:13:46
Speaker
in some way to
Craft and Community: Woodworking's Legacy
00:13:47
Speaker
the field that has given me so much. I can't just take forever because then we'll just not have enough, you know, good will flowing. So actually, Eric, your, your comments about the craft being our group that we believe we're part of the legacy of, of woodworkers. I love that point. Well, I like for me personally, and we don't have to get into, to my years of baggage and trauma, but for me personally, like I it's, it's in
00:14:16
Speaker
It's hyperbolic, but given that this is the emo episode, I'll lean into it and say, I would say, honestly, that woodworking saved my life. It gave me a thing to do to hyperfixate on that was not self-destructive and allowed me to develop a skill set that then became valuable over time and allowed me to find some sense of self-respect through that vehicle.
00:14:42
Speaker
And people have that vehicle in a number of different forms. But for me, that's why I hold the craft in this community so dear is because I think that does that for a lot of people too. Like people in the LGB2 community, people in the black community, people of like from all different backgrounds, right? Like a senior named 25. But you have this thing where you feel,
00:15:05
Speaker
other than in society. And then you end up finding this vehicle that allows you to realize like you're fucking capable of doing something interesting and good and valuable. And there's real value in that. I wanted you to write a song about how working saved your life. But it must be in the emo genre, please. I'll A.I. generate one for you. OK, there it is. Now we're talking. OK.
00:15:33
Speaker
Mary, you just made me forget what I was going to say. Shit. Okay, I guess I do have a point to what you were just talking about. Part of it is also influence and the amount of influence that you can have
00:15:50
Speaker
that will kind of support your legacy. So for me, I don't think about it that much because I don't think I have enough of a say in this woodworking world because I, one, barely had the time to do it. And then two, like I don't consider myself like super unique. So maybe that's why it doesn't come across my mind as much. I don't think I can influence that much.
00:16:11
Speaker
where I am. However, as I say that, I realize that that's not true, because every time I teach a class, I always have people coming up being like, Oh, yeah, I'm super happy that, you know, there's a woman who's teaching this, I find taking this class and things like that. And like, I know people have reached out to me about it being like, Yeah, I love like,
00:16:31
Speaker
the thought you put into the design, want to hear more about it, and it's like, why? And of course, in my stupid brain, why do these people care? Who wants to hear what I'm like? But that's just my own internal thoughts, and I realize that that's not always the case. So the amount of influence that you have is also a sort of legacy as well, and it's just not one that I immediately think of.
00:16:52
Speaker
Well, and this is an argument that I have with Larissa regularly, right? The idea of I'm uncomfortable acknowledging that people see me in my work and value it. And for her, like she doesn't want to acknowledge that she has quote unquote fans. Like that's where she draws the line of like, that's uncomfortable to me.
00:17:12
Speaker
And yeah, I can relate to that. People constantly are like, your work is amazing. I'm so glad you're doing this. I'm so glad you're sharing it. So her influence is big as is yours. Like you are going to deny that and try to downplay it. But there is I think there is a moral obligation
00:17:32
Speaker
for us to sit with the things that make us uncomfortable in order that we might do something more meaningful and impactful. And you have an influence. Larissa has an influence. Paul has an influence. And I think there is a real social obligation toward the social legacy of the craft to sit with that and nurture it and come to terms with it.
00:18:00
Speaker
Okay, so what's stunning to me is at first I thought about legacy as your personal legacy and all three of us have somehow rocketed towards like we're being part of like a craft legacy. Like that's all our answers. Like are you guys thinking at all about your personal legacy or was it more about being the legacy of a part of a bigger movement?
00:18:23
Speaker
Well, I think your personal legacy, for lack of a better word, not that that's a bad word, but, you know, I feel like we're going to say legacy 742 times this episode.
00:18:36
Speaker
your personal legacy is a part of the social legacy right so let's let's just take well let's you know what i mean no i erica said that he tied himself so closely to woodworking is the thing that saved his life so i feel like personal legacy has to be tied
00:18:54
Speaker
Okay, let's listen. Let's take James Krenov as an example, right? Not my favorite woodworker, but certainly a person who developed a thing and made that thing and then taught that thing. And you cannot argue with his personal contribution to the craft, but that came about only due to his ability to develop skill and aesthetic and then teach that.
00:19:20
Speaker
I think they're intertwined. Okay. All right. My next question about the L word, love, no legacy. Can you, you know, I was thinking about painters or whoever, like, I
00:19:37
Speaker
I'm gonna advance a point and you tell me if you agree. I feel like you can't plan for legacy. You can't preconceive it. You can't be like, I'm gonna do this and it's gonna make a big splash and carry on forever. You have to just be you in the moment. You have to just play and pursue your passion and pursue what you enjoy doing. And that's like the seed and that seed over time evolves and maybe even after your death,
00:20:07
Speaker
that seed then grows into a lasting legacy. Often it doesn't happen when many people are alive. And I don't think you can plan for it because that seems disingenuous. It's almost contrived, like, oh, I want to make a big splash. I want people to talk about me. I think that's kind of lame, right? So I often find that artists who do have a legacy
00:20:27
Speaker
were just playing in the moment being themselves they had no idea or whatever social movement turned into a legacy like they didn't know that that was going to be a big deal 50 years 100 years from now they were just being themselves in the moment what do you think about that i'm letting mary answer yeah i mean i'm trying to think about it because i don't
00:20:53
Speaker
Like we're hippies, we're hippies at Woodstock thinking we're going to have a social legacy, you know, 50s, 100 years from now. I don't think so. But like what determines what made you into a legacy that is just a reaction of?
00:21:08
Speaker
other people to your work. And I know there's like plenty of famous artists to like van Gogh, right, who didn't even realize his work is amazing until and then like he didn't know even until after he died. So that's right. So is like legacy seems like it's somewhat of a evolving narrative. And you may, you may not even be part of that narrative. You may have like, let's take van Gogh as an example, because I think that's really interesting.
00:21:34
Speaker
So he was just a crazed guy like doing paintings like just to pay his bills and because he was a he was a compulsion to make paintings. And then along the way, and I, you know, he became famous somehow, it often it often is married to a tragedy, for example, guys tragedy makes for a good story.
00:21:56
Speaker
right? Which then leads to interest in that story, which leads to dollar bills, which leads to legacy, right? So there's a dark side to this. Like, I don't feel like legacy, it may not be the artist's intent, like whatever they're known for 100 years or after their death may not have actually been what they were going for in that moment. But it's what the narrative took on through either financial ways or people retelling the story.
00:22:23
Speaker
Is legacy kind of just when you have... Can you define legacy, Paul? I was really trying hard not to do that. And yet that's the exact question you were asking. Jesus Christ, Mary. Enough with the fucking definitions.
00:22:38
Speaker
I did not say that. I was going to say, is legacy when you have a following? Because I'm trying to understand a cult classic, for example, that is something that was notoriously bad, but has a following. Is that a legacy?
00:22:56
Speaker
I feel like that's interesting to bring up with Paul's example of Van Gogh, because Van Gogh, the story of the thing was made by Van Gogh's sister-in-law, if I remember correctly, right? And it was like the evolving of the social times and how that all comes into play. Van Gogh was literally
00:23:20
Speaker
poor in a gutter. And she was the person who decided when his brother couldn't sell his painting, she was the person who decided that she was going to tell the story of his mental health struggles. And that was seen as absolute taboo at that point in time, you sell the art, you do not sell the artist and intertwining the two was not acceptable.
00:23:40
Speaker
And she was like, fuck that. That's an interesting story. And also I inherited all these goddamn paintings and I got to sell these bitches. So what are we going to do here? And so I think to your point, Paul, the two cannot be disassociated.
00:23:55
Speaker
And it often makes me wonder now, for all the artists who have some big legacy of the past, and we hear about them, how many of them are accurate? Is what they intended actually what we talk about today? Or is it some capitalist or economic recasting of their original meaning?
00:24:15
Speaker
Well, can we, can we be less than you? I, you might be right. And that's a fair, I don't know. I mean, I'm wondering what percent of the time it's actually accurate to what the artist, I think it's entirely dependent on the artist. And I think everything gets bastardized with time. Probably if I'm going to be the cynic on the email episode. Uh, but I think there is, um, if I can
00:24:38
Speaker
paint a less cynical picture. Because I think there are two distinct paths, right? Like there is the path of the person who like post death or even late in life, they like come to, you know, social knowledge and they start selling shit. And then it starts selling at Sotheby's. And then all of a sudden Picasso paint in even,
00:25:00
Speaker
He was famous early, but like Picasso painting sell for millions of dollars and people like fuck this like it's a goddamn painting like what's special about Picasso? I don't even get it versus the artist who Plays to use your word from before and taps into something that's like deeply human and we don't really quite understand what it is that's hitting it like that core human experience, but it resonates somehow and maybe it never gains a lot of
00:25:29
Speaker
financial traction, but it just kind of exists in this knowledge of like, I think, again, coming back to your friend who is a famous bassist that I don't know. I think music does that, right? Music has that thing of like, you can hear a perfect song.
00:25:48
Speaker
And it might be by the biggest band in the world and it might be by somebody you've never fucking heard of before. But there's like it just hits your soul in the right way and it just kind of like lingers there for the rest of eternity to the point where you just like whistle it without even thinking about who wrote it or the actual song when you're just like skipping stones. It's just a thing that exists in perfection in and of itself. And that can be entirely apart from capitalism. Hmm.
00:26:18
Speaker
And this is where I come back to the value of the object as an end to itself versus a means to extend our own.
00:26:28
Speaker
existence, right? So coming back to objects and coming back to legacy, I think there is a distinguishing, there's a distinction to be made between making an object that is intended to outlive you in order that the object is a means to an end in that you won't die versus making an object as the end itself, and it just happens to outlive you. Like those are two- What do you mean as the ends itself?
00:26:57
Speaker
So when you make an object, you make a song, whatever you're creating, a painting, whatever your creative outlet is, when your aim is to make the most perfect version of that thing and it just exists in and of itself. And then you set it aside and you don't think about what it actually means to the legacy of the craft or to you as an artist, et cetera. That thing has some kind of profound
00:27:25
Speaker
excellent, some kind of profound weight to it versus making an object that you go like, okay, this thing could withstand a fire. It'll be around for 500 years. It's going to outlive me. Yeah. But like it is then a means to an end and the end being it is around longer than you. And so it extends your life and in some vague sense, like there's, is there one that you prefer out of those two? Well, I think, I mean, like we're gonna,
00:27:51
Speaker
start talking about like a manual con and shit, but like the idea of using anything as a means to an end lessens the value of the thing, right? Like if I use a person as a means to an end, you would both say like, that's morally reprehensible. Rather than treating the person or the object as the end itself. Okay. It could be like, stop trying so hard sort of thing.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, just be, just make shit. Just be. Just be. So I want to pause and ask the listeners to say, and feel free to react in the comments on whatever platform you're listening or send us an email or whatever. I guess I would ask, when you make a thing, are you thinking about how long that thing will live? And does that make you feel as if you live, like your legacy lives with that thing?
00:28:48
Speaker
And is that important to you? Wait, can you say that again? I'm asking the listening base. I'm going to say, when you make objects, are you thinking about how long that object will last? And does it feel as though that's a piece of you living on into the future? That's more or less what I'm asking. And is that important? I could be wrong in this, but I believe
00:29:17
Speaker
the Jewish idea of death is the the last person to die who knew you or had some or you had some impact on whether that be personally or through your work and so that very much relates to that idea of you know you give a piece to your daughter
00:29:40
Speaker
And she has that forever. Maybe your grandkids, they have that and they go, grandpa was such a wonderful by your great, great, great grandkids. They're just like, this is a thing some old dude made. Yeah, it was related to him, but.
00:29:52
Speaker
Like at what point does it lose the, the, the value of it being attached to you and then need to stand on its own as an object? Okay. I'll tell you, it lasts about two to three generations. Cause like, you know, your grandparents, you obviously knew your parents, you knew your grandparents. Do you know your great grandparents? I knew one of them.
00:30:13
Speaker
I knew one of them, right? Yeah. Mary? No. No? OK. And do you know your great-great-grandparents? That's where it ends. It seems like two or three generations. And it's this bubble that travels through time, through generation to generation, and that bubble extends about two to three generations back, that intimate knowledge of who they were. Beyond that, it's lost to antiquity. So it doesn't seem like that's really
00:30:41
Speaker
that important to me per se. But what we were talking about earlier about social legacy, or being part of a larger a thing beyond you and your family.
Ideas vs. Objects: Longevity of Legacy
00:30:52
Speaker
Actually, I could see that being actually more important or at least a little more fulfilling long term. Well, so one of the
00:30:59
Speaker
the reasons why I couldn't really bring myself to make a career out of music outside of the fact that I blew up my vocal cords because I had poor vocal hygiene. The idea is from the scream. Oh, it was from a lot of scream. Oh, just I had so much to get out of my system. No, the the idea that an idea is somehow less valuable than an object. Right.
00:31:28
Speaker
And yet what we're talking about right now is an object has a lifespan. An idea does not like we, we still talk about thoughts from people 2,500 years ago. That's important. Yeah. So like that there's an inverse relationship there where like in the immediacy, we're like, ah, ideas are stupid because they're ethereal and they go away. But then the ones that stick stick around a lot longer than objects.
00:31:55
Speaker
That's true, but it's a lot harder for a person to create that unique of an idea, an everyday person. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to do it. Yeah. Hey, I listen to Alan Watts, and he's been dead since the 1970s, and I listen to him almost every day. But we're not all Alan Watts. That's true. Yeah, but I guess that's true. But I guess it extends far beyond that. The ideas of Plato are still talked about in Aristotle.
00:32:24
Speaker
So interesting point. All right. Anything else to any other points, either of you, uh, actually Mary, uh, I have a question for you. Uh, obviously, um, do you, uh, given your background, your ethnic background, do you have any thoughts about like, you know, cause like Asian culture has some pretty strong ideas about legacy and family. Yeah. What's the Asian perspective?
00:32:54
Speaker
What's the question? Well, you were raised in an Asian household. Were you were you subject to any really strong ideas legacy?
00:33:12
Speaker
Okay, so personally, myself, no. But I will say that I know there is a difference between Eastern and Western culture. So in, I think, Asian countries, there is a lot more emphasis on family and sticking together and there's much more
00:33:34
Speaker
There's a lot of importance in terms of legacy there. Myself, personally, not really. Just because it was never really a thing in my family, and most people will tell you that I'm probably the least Asian Asian there is. So I just never really had that in my life. I was not close to my grandparents. I never knew my great grandparents. Actually, I only knew two of my grandparents in general.
00:34:02
Speaker
So that's never really been something that has run in my family at all. We don't have any like heirlooms that we pass through generations. We don't have, and like maybe that's where my nachalants for Legacy comes from because I don't have anything in my life that I would value like that besides maybe my violin, but even that I could probably let go.
00:34:24
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I, I think that's probably where a lot of my attitude comes from, just not having it in my family, but I can't speak for, you know, all Asians. It's just.
00:34:36
Speaker
My personal experience, I do know that there is that influence and importance within Asian cultures. I'm very rarely self-congratulatory, but I do just want to point out that I made it two minutes and 50 seconds without making a single joke there, because this is a public medium broadcast, so we're going to keep it there. No, no, I think you should make all the jokes.
00:35:03
Speaker
Nope, that's a big hard task. Let's see how fast you can get you canceled. That is, I'm all set on that. Thank you for checking. But I am calling bullshit on you because you studied architecture and to build anything
00:35:19
Speaker
to focus on buildings and architecture specifically is to say, I want a thing to outlive me by a thousand years. So I'm gonna say get fucked on, you don't think about your legacy because that is exactly, like you don't go into architecture with the idea of like, I'm gonna build a disposable building.
00:35:38
Speaker
Okay, that is fair. However, I would argue that the things that I created when I was an architect were not representative of who I was because I was representing a design company or a firm and their way of building their style their
00:35:56
Speaker
their perspective of what a building should be like. It was not really my. Of course, of course, you're limited in the beginning of your career, no matter what you're doing. When I was apprenticing and in school, I was heavily influenced by the people who were teaching me the craft. But the idea of going to school and saying I'm going to study to be an architect can't unlink itself from the idea of building things that will be around for hundreds or thousands of years longer than you.
00:36:23
Speaker
That's true. And I think that that's part of the draw of architecture school. It's like a very much romanticized career of like, oh, yeah, these things will be like, incredible influence and amazing. And these things will last forever. And then as soon as you start actually working in the field, you're like, oh, shit, yeah, this this ain't for me.
00:36:40
Speaker
But again, this is true of any creative medium or design medium, right?
Creative Professions: Expectations vs. Realities
00:36:46
Speaker
You become a woodworker because you're like, I'm just going to be in my shop every day outside of the budding cherry tree and looking out over the field. And then you get into a fucking cold basement where the glue isn't setting because it's 55 degrees every goddamn day. And you're like, oh, this sucks. I haven't seen the sun in seven days. And we're just building fucking kitchen cabinets. That's the reality of it.
00:37:11
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, architecture's, you know, it's a kind of a different scale in which, you know, it's enormous and it will, it will outlast you. Once the material's important and everything, it's gonna outlast you for sure. Whereas like, I don't know, would an object maybe not? So there is a bit more gravitas behind it. So I agree that you did call me out and
00:37:35
Speaker
That is true. However, I'm not saying that at all. Way to go, Eric. Calling her out. She just acquiesced to that. So she was like, all right, fine. All right. Ready? I'm going to ask you about your personal legacy, like about the things you've made. Is there one thing that you hope lasts the test of time and is passed on to someone you care about?
00:38:06
Speaker
No, I don't have that. I don't have anything in my life like that. I'm unsure.
00:38:21
Speaker
I mean, yes, I'll give kind of two separate answers, I suppose. The one thing that I'm very confident will outlive me and outlive multiple people is the blanket chest, because that thing is beefy and it ain't going anywhere. Now, that's not in my vocabulary anymore. It was as close to a rip off as I think I've ever come. But it is substantial, and barring a house fire, it's going to be around for $500.
00:38:49
Speaker
As far as objects that I want to be passed on, I think that's where the emotional connection to the work and the objects stands apart from my connection to the individual. So the people that I love, I want to take the things that I make. And whatever they connect to would be the thing that I hope they take.
00:39:13
Speaker
I don't have any one object that I'm like, I really want you to have this because the fuck do I know about how you connect with my work?
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, I will say the I keep coming back to like my violin probably being the thing even though I obviously didn't make it but it is hella old as I've mentioned before but also it is the one object in my life I have spent the most time with without a doubt like 20 years every day like so many hours with that object and I don't know if I have spent the same amount of time with any other object in my life like I'm trying to think right now but I can't
00:39:50
Speaker
nothing comes to mind so concretely. So I definitely have that emotional attachment. And I don't have anyone that I would want to like pass along to, but I do know that I want it to keep living in this world and being used, not being used right now. But that's so Paul, I want to ask you the same question. But before I do, Mary, I
00:40:12
Speaker
You hit on it right at the end. I'm curious if knowing the person and having a connection to the person is the important part of somebody inheriting that object or if somebody who could use it and treat it right. See, you're nodding and saying that's the thing. And so this again, then comes back to the question of is the object a means or an end? Because if the object is an end in and of itself, it desert, it has a weight to it. It deserves to be used and played and treated well.
00:40:39
Speaker
versus giving it to somebody like, you know, like, well, this person will think of me every time they see the instrument. Like that's not the important part. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I agree. I would definitely say it doesn't matter who it is. I don't need to know them. I just want it to be used in a way that it'll celebrate itself.
00:40:58
Speaker
If you had a child, your answer might be different because you'd want them to. Yeah, possibly. That's true. You are the only one that has a child here, so yeah. That we know of, am I right? All right, we're going to get a call in question in the aftershow. That is Eric's long lost son or daughter. Hey, dad.
00:41:25
Speaker
Oh my god, Eric! There's no way to know. Science can't tell. Actually, science can tell. It's called paternity tests. I've never heard of it, so... Oh my god, Eric. Okay, great. Thanks for that. As I try to formulate my answer, you bitch. You're welcome. So, there are objects that have been part of our home
00:41:51
Speaker
that i want to be in my daughter's life for her for the rest of her life that would be like my high chest and our uh Windsor bench that we sit on and the stool my very first woodworking project that we use all the time those are like things that i
00:42:10
Speaker
have grown to love and love. It's part of the home. It's part of the home experience. I want her to take those with her as part of the legacy of our family. And then there's things that I've made for other people because I've made hundreds of commissions. And those things you have to let go.
00:42:27
Speaker
by definition. Like when you finish them, you let them go like a bird, right? And it hurts sometimes. They were great objects and I miss some of them, not all of them, but I miss some of them and you let them go and you just hope that the way you built it
00:42:43
Speaker
and the care you put in when you were making it will stand the test of time for their family's legacy because I think these objects are so rare and so one of a kind that they become treasured in whoever's family and you don't want them to break and you don't want them to have problems. So when I make things now, I do the best I can to ensure that that object is repairable,
00:43:06
Speaker
for whoever owns it because I understand how important these objects become to people. Mary, it would be like your violin, whoever made your violin. Did they use hide glue so it's repairable, right? Things like that. I don't know. Well, if it's from the 1700s, the answer is yes. Even luthiers today, for the most part, proper luthiers still use hide glue because it is repairable.
00:43:32
Speaker
Good to know. Okay. So on that note, I think we've, we've talked, uh, we're at the 45, roughly 43 minute mark on legacy. Uh, I love to put the onus on the listeners to just think for a minute about how does legacy affect what you do? Is it important to you? Does it guide what you do? Is that a good idea? Is that a bad idea? We don't have answers here. We just have our own reflections at the time. There are no answers in an absolute sense.
00:44:01
Speaker
We are moving on to segment two, which is even more emo Mary, which is. Bring it on, please. Mary, are your nails painted black today? No, they're not. And I'm really upset they're not. They're pink, which is like the anti. You know, thinking about guests, we really should have tried to get Jared Leto on this episode.
00:44:20
Speaker
Wait, no, he's a weird one. He's not emo enough. It was the only emo guy I could think of. I mean, if there's like the most pretty emo, but if I had to choose, it wouldn't be him. Did you just say he's the most pretty emo? No, I said he's pretty emo. Oh, OK. He's not the most pretty emo. He's pretty and emo. He's also like a cult. I don't know. He freaks me out.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, he's a fucking weirdo. Anyway, here we are. Anyway, what are we talking about? So the next segment we thought we'd do is there is a very interesting book by Bronnie Breuer called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying.
Regrets of the Dying: Living Authentically
00:44:59
Speaker
And she was a hospice nurse who was tending to people with terminal disease or who were in their last stages. And she started hearing a lot of regrets.
00:45:12
Speaker
that these people would say as they're in their final stages of life. And she started tabulating data about what were the most common regrets she was hearing time and time again. And she published it as a book. And it's called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. And what I wanted to do was ask both you and, of course, passively our listeners,
00:45:42
Speaker
do you resonate with these regrets and have you lived your life in a way that avoids these regrets, all right?
00:45:49
Speaker
And by the way, Eric and Mary are typing things in our chat trying to distract me. What the fuck are you talking about? Why don't you just be professional for a minute? I know. I don't understand what you're saying. We're being so respectful and really just generous with our time. Just because he can't keep his train of thought, he's trying to put this shit on us. Yeah, don't blame us. Can you stop typing shit?
00:46:17
Speaker
Okay, so ready? Ready? The top five regrets of the dying and I want your honest reactions. How are you doing on these regrets? Are you ready? This might get real deep real fast. Okay, number one. The most common regret of the dying. I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.
00:46:46
Speaker
Well, shit. That's pretty deep. That's the whole point of this fucking segment, Marryga. I know, I know. But like, man, this is like making me think a lot. This is really like making me think a lot about myself, and I don't love doing that. You can't come on the emo episode and then be like, I wasn't prepared to be self-reflectory.
00:47:13
Speaker
fine fine okay are you are you gonna go through all five first or are we gonna comment no let's go after you one at a time go um i would say that i'm probably about half and half right now uh i don't i don't exclusively work for like one side of like oh people think this of me so i have to do it this way i think that i yeah i would say i'm pretty split 50 50
00:47:39
Speaker
So when we decided on this segment and you said you were going to say those things, and I don't know what all five are, the thing I wrote down was to live courageously, which is a thing that I attempt to do. Now you don't always live up to your, your aims, right? It's a high aim, but
00:47:58
Speaker
to do the thing that I think is right or the thing that I think that I need to do in spite of it being difficult or scary is the promise that I make to myself that I sometimes need to remind myself because if I get to the end and I realize that I didn't do that, that is the thing that I think will haunt me, which is why I do weird shit. Like it's probably a poor business decision to take a month off of work
00:48:27
Speaker
and go for a road trip or to work fucking 12 hours a day for a thing that I think really matters to accomplish in end. It's illogical. I can make more money doing less work in another field, but here I am. I have to do the thing that I think I need to do. And whether that's courageous or not, I don't know, but I won't regret that when I'm done.
00:48:54
Speaker
Good. So you'll avoid that regret. That's the hope. I have largely been true to myself my whole life. I don't think I followed what other expected to be because my parents have never really laid down an expectation. They just said, we want you to be happy. We want you to do what you want to do.
00:49:11
Speaker
When your parents are cool like that, it's hard to live your life with expectation. That's a nod to my folks for raising me right now. I've got Asian parents, so...
00:49:29
Speaker
I didn't make a joke. For once. Okay, number two. Number two. Ready? Second regret. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Hard disagree.
00:49:45
Speaker
Here's why I disagree. Here's why I disagree. I'm gonna go full Mary. It depends on your definition of work, first and foremost. But also, if you work your entire life in order that you don't have to work at the end of the day, over the weekend, at the end of your life, then you're missing the point of work. To again, to do the hard thing, to accomplish something that is worthwhile is,
00:50:12
Speaker
work, but if you can somehow focus on making that a way that you can live your life, then why wouldn't you work toward that goal? Well, as Alan Watts says, think of work as play, right? I think this regret is people who did jobs, who worked that they did not enjoy necessarily. Yeah, we don't know anybody like that. And they sacrificed so much for the carrot at the end of their life, realized that the carrot is nothing but a fallacy. Right.
00:50:43
Speaker
Yeah, the point of the dance is not to get to the end of the dance. The point of the dance is the dancing. Yeah, so I think, you know, that's really, like you said, Eric, it depends how you define work. If it's what you enjoy doing the whole time, then that's not really, quote unquote, work. Mary? Yeah, I mean, I agree. Don't give me that stupid smirk. I don't know why you would refer to Paul like that, but that's a very unkind idea.
00:51:13
Speaker
referring to Eric for all listeners this little like smirk on his face that's been on his face the entire time this question looking at me because he knows that I've been overworking myself the thing well so the thing is like I have chosen to overwork myself because I genuinely loved my job this stuff that was giving me trouble was not my job or not like the work itself it was
00:51:37
Speaker
other things that were kind of out of my control within my job. So like, I still don't regret any of it. I'm glad that I did it. I wanted to do it. I volunteered for it. And yeah, maybe drove me a little crazy sometimes. But I don't think I regret it, to be honest. So yeah, I genuinely think that
00:51:59
Speaker
Like we said, it kind of depends on whether or not the work is something that you like doing. And for me, it's probably a little too much. I probably enjoy it a little too much. So it's starting to affect my life. But I don't know. I can see Eric not believing me at all. Hey, I will say this. I will say this to you personally as a friend on camera, off camera. I am here to support you. And if that's what you say and believe, I will support you. I don't think that you believe that.
00:52:28
Speaker
Okay. All right. We'll fight over this. We can start the fight in the after show. All right. For me, my work has always been one of my passions and the company I work for has always been very reasonable with the amount that they ask from me. So I don't really resonate with number two. Number three. I wish I had the courage to express my feelings. I'll start with this one.
00:52:55
Speaker
This one has for me been an evolution. I think when I was younger, I was more reticent about expressing my feelings. I used to like just kind of bottle them up or not acknowledge that they were there or scared to say them because it might be awkward in a moment. But as I've aged, I've been far, far more
00:53:14
Speaker
relaxed and forthcoming with telling my friends, both male and female, about how I feel, both good and bad, because I feel like that's just the way I want to live my life. And it's been an evolution. I'm still not perfect, but it's improved. Maybe that's what those people meant, though, when they said, like, I wish I had expressed my feelings more, because
00:53:42
Speaker
Like as you approach the end of your life, you probably feel like you had the opportunity more later in life and not so much earlier. And I don't know. I think I would need a little bit more context in what they've meant because I kind of think that you need to define it.
00:53:59
Speaker
Mary needs a definition of, I wish I expressed my feelings more. Jesus fucking Christ. What kind of definition? I don't think I need definition, but I do think that's probably the case for everyone that as you get older, you're just more comfortable with yourself and expressing your feelings. So unless there are people, well, I don't know, me and my parents, but there are people who are like, when they're older, they still don't feel comfortable. But I just feel like that's
00:54:24
Speaker
I can't really think of too many people who are like that. Go ahead. Well, it's true, Mary. It's an evolution. Like early on, you're probably a little more resonant to express your feelings. But the question is, I guess at the end of your life, do you feel like you got to a point where you were expressing your feelings freely and honestly most of the time? I'm there now. I am really...
00:54:46
Speaker
True blue with my friends I tell my friends that I care about them and I love them and it does I'm not weird about it at all and I don't care if they reciprocate it because that's how I feel so it's like no skin off my back to tell them how I feel it just makes me feel good that they know that so the question is did the person at the end of their life get to a point where they felt good about it I Agree with you that the majority of people are
00:55:12
Speaker
probably get to a point where they express it more than they did when they were younger. And so I think all three of us struggled to express those things when we were younger. Paul, I'm with you. I know you well enough. Paul, I'm with you in that at this point in time, I am very open. I tried to be very intentional about telling my friends that I love them, telling the people I care about that they're important to me.
00:55:41
Speaker
The other thing that I try to be very intentional about is on the opposite side of that is articulating when it's uncomfortable and having difficult conversations with people. Because the thing is, there's never a good time to have a difficult conversation, right? Because when things are shitty, you don't want to pile on. And when things are good, you don't want to ruin a good moment.
00:56:04
Speaker
but having the necessary difficult conversations inevitably leads to better relationships. It does. And so that is a really important thing that I try to be mindful about of like, there's never a good time to say this, but we need to sit down and talk about it, so. Yeah, because unsaid things leads to resentment over time. Right, right.
00:56:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would say similarly. However, I think I'm a little bit more careful in picking and choosing the specific moments in which I would like to share those thoughts. If I kind of am able to evaluate the situation and I think that it would be better for me to share my feelings,
00:56:48
Speaker
In the long run, I will choose to do so. However, I've also gone through scenarios in life where I don't think it helped the situation. And I've learned from that. So I would try to be a little bit more careful in evaluating what I think would be the aftermath. Interesting. Well, there is an argument to be made for not sharing a thing because what you're attempting to do in certain circumstances is to get a thing off your chest and put it on another person.
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah. But I feel that's separate from the regret of not having
00:57:24
Speaker
shared how you feel and I would be curious what the demographic is that were interviewed for this book and when it was done because as soon as you said that my immediate thought and Mary you talking about your parents not being super open to sharing feelings and maybe that's a cultural thing and I'm thinking like 1950s white America the people who were probably interviewed for this book as they were going out like
00:57:50
Speaker
Not a very open culture. Not a very like let's talk about our emotions. Yeah. This is fairly recently. Yeah. Okay. But I think 2016 ish was okay. So, so minus 80 years, you're still talking about 1950s America. All right. Next question. Um, uh, I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends. Hmm.
00:58:20
Speaker
I actually had this topic recently with a friend in which we noticed that the older you get, and I think I read this on a Reddit subreddit too, but the older you get, especially amongst our parents and grandparents age, I think you've noticed them having fewer and fewer friends. And I don't know if that's just from time and just, I don't really know what causes it, but
00:58:45
Speaker
I don't think it's a conscious decision. I think it just happens. I was talking to my dad about this, and he was saying, my dad doesn't really have that many friends. The ones that he ever always talks to me about are the ones that he made in college, and he hasn't really kept up with them as much as he wishes he did. Also, very glad he doesn't listen to this podcast. What's up, Danielle? I just told people that my dad doesn't have friends.
00:59:17
Speaker
It's just something that I've noticed in most generations. I don't know. My mom definitely has more friends, but yeah, I don't really have an answer to that because I think that I keep up with friends enough, but I can't tell for what it'll be later on.
00:59:34
Speaker
Mary, being older than you as you've been ageist towards me, I've been on the receiving end of your ageist comments from time to time. He said that. I have you youngins. I have deeply reflected on why I see a pattern where as we age, we have less friends. And I think that is multi-factorial. One factor is
01:00:01
Speaker
Well, of course, as you get into our parents' generation, people die or they get sick, right? Of course, that's like a standard, right? Number two is as we age, we're less willing to put up with bullshit. We're less willing to compromise. And staying friends with people, as you know, certain friends requires a lot of compromise.
01:00:22
Speaker
And are you willing to compromise? Are you willing to take moments or do things that you don't really want to do? And when you're young, you're like, yeah, let's do it. What's the big deal? And when you're older, you're like, nah, I think I'm just going to stay home.
01:00:37
Speaker
And I think that's the second piece. And the third piece is as we lose friends when we're older, are we replenishing the pool with new friends? And that comes to the issue of when you're older, when you're working too much probably, and you have children who take a ton of effort, and you have a little me time for yourself and your spouse or whoever,
01:01:01
Speaker
Where's the time to make new friends? And what's the common thread that unites with them? Like you have to have a, you have to have time, you have to have, have met them and you have to have something in common to bond you together. Frequent unscripted interactions.
01:01:18
Speaker
and that gets harder and harder as we get older so i think those are my you know three immediate answers to to why it's it's harder i'm glad you hit the kids thing because i obviously the older generations everybody or almost everybody had kids and i'm curious to see how that changes with our generations as
01:01:41
Speaker
fewer of us have children because I have a lot of friends with kids, but the overwhelming majority of like my closest friends do not have kids. And so we have that extra free time to be around each other and build those broader social nets. Um, so I mean, as far as how I do about keeping up with, with friends, I think I'm again,
01:02:04
Speaker
I try to be conscious of it. Like if there's somebody I haven't spoken to in a little while, I'll just send them a text, be like, Hey, you know, I was thinking about you. Love you friend. Like hope you're doing okay. And I, even just that what I've noticed is like, maybe we don't talk for a couple of months and I just send that text or they send me that text. And then we talk for like a week.
01:02:23
Speaker
And then next time I'm able to get around to like hang out with them, we can spend some time together. And it feels very much like two people who care about being in the presence of one another rather than, you know, that I don't know, utilizing that friendship to make me feel good. Hmm.
01:02:42
Speaker
I think that's an important distinction as well.
01:03:03
Speaker
that requires additional activation energy to throw large parts. But I actively fight it because I see the tendrils creeping into my own life. I can see it. I can feel it. And I try to push back against it.
01:03:21
Speaker
That's when you just make Eric throw a party at his house and then invite all of your friends over to Eric's house. That does seem to be the fucking plan that everybody has. All right, last one. You ready? I wish I had let myself be happier. Hmm.
01:03:44
Speaker
It's a tricky one. It's a real tricky one. Okay. I think this one speaks to anxiety. It speaks to guilt. The guilt of being productive or not allowing yourself to enjoy the moment and guilting yourself, I should have been doing this or I should have been doing that or I should be this, I should be that.
01:04:08
Speaker
I don't like that. I don't like feeling guilty about stuff that I've done in my life. I like to think that even if I didn't enjoy it, I learned something from it. I don't know. Do you let yourself be happy? Do you allow yourself to be content in the moment with your decisions? Or do you get on yourself because that little voice in the back of your head? I think that's what this is speaking to. I think those are two different things.
01:04:35
Speaker
talking about allowing yourself to be happy in the moment, and then punishing yourself afterward because you didn't x, right? That's one thing versus not knowing how to identify a moment that you're in and allow yourself to be present in that moment.
01:04:51
Speaker
Oh, because that's because that's a real component of this, too, right? Like the thing of just like while you're in it, you're either thinking, oh, my God, I have to do this later. Or you're thinking about what you don't have versus what is in front of you. So there's the momentary versus the the reflectory that's that I want to distinguish there. But I think that.
01:05:13
Speaker
That's that's a tricky one too, because there is I feel like we have this idea of happiness of like, as it's a lifestyle, right? Like, yeah, exactly. Happy. Happiness is an emotion. It's fleeting. And yeah, like, it's so nice to have other moments to compare it to.
01:05:31
Speaker
And I think it's really important to say like just because you're not happy right now, just because you're not happy in this moment, doesn't mean that it's not a worthwhile moment and that that it's worth being present in because like, listen, whatever happens, you know, a fucking parent dies and you go spend time with friends. You're not happy in that moment, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have immense value and and, you know, healing in that moment. So I think there's the idea of I wish I let myself be happier.
01:06:01
Speaker
Um, I don't know. I don't know how to sit with that one. Eric, I think it means they're like punishing themselves instead of just enjoying the present for what it is. They're like, Oh, I should be doing this or I should be doing that. And it sort of spoils the moment is how I interpret it. If that's the case, if that's where we're sitting with it, um, then I don't have an issue.
01:06:24
Speaker
doing it like I will I will work my ass off and then when I sit down and have a beer with you guys or do this podcast or whatever it is or go camping or spend time with friends. I don't give a shit about what else is going on like I'm there and that's a skill I've had to learn but I'm able to put that shit away and just be there with people because I know that moment is is temporary. Mary, do you let yourself be happy?
01:06:50
Speaker
I think so. I mean, it comes and goes in terms of how much I control it, but I definitely have the capability to do so.
01:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think that when there's when I'm in the moment, like, for example, I just got back from vacation, like these two weeks were so great. And I knew that they were great. So I let myself just be in the moment. I let myself just enjoy my time with my friends and, you know, explore new, new cities and just soak it all in. And it was really, really awesome. So I think that I have that capability. Sometimes it doesn't feel like I do, but I know I do.
01:07:27
Speaker
Great. That's good to hear. Paul? I'm happy. I'm improving. I used to have guilt about being productive all the moment, but that came from academia. You have to be a scientist every minute of every day, and otherwise you're not productive. That kind of guilt complex stuff, I've been able to shed that, but it took a while.
01:07:45
Speaker
So I think I'm okay now. Again, in evolution, like you may have not been good with it, but now you are. So I hope everyone's enjoyed these five top recruits at the dynamic. I also want to point out the, the, what is it? A positivity bias where all five of us were like, no, I think we got all five on lockdown. I feel like next week is going to be a therapy session where I'm like, guys, I really thought about these five things and I don't know if I have. We're out here like no regrets. We're good.
01:08:15
Speaker
Like really spiraling. So, Bronnie Ware, I appreciate you, you know, culminating these top five regrets of the dying. I think about these often as just a way to touch, like to check in on myself to make sure like I'm doing
01:08:36
Speaker
At least for these five things which I think are all important things. I just like to check in with myself How am I doing on these? I thought it's it's you know, I've thought about these quite a bit. So We hope you enjoyed this segment and I wonder how you all did on these five. I wonder if Mr. Or Mrs. Bronnie where has a line of flannels because if they don't what the fuck are they doing? Yeah
01:09:03
Speaker
All right. So on that note, we're going to do two more things. We're going to thank our patrons and we're going to talk about the after show question. Our patrons since the last show are Tristan Duracek, Lewis Ryan at Black Apron Woodworking. Lewis has been very vocal with our podcast and all kinds of. Thank you.
01:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, Lewis has been quite an interesting, he's raised very many, many good points recently. I enjoy talking to him. Jason Harris, Harris by hand, and Kevin McNeil. All four of you, we really appreciate the support very much. Hell yeah. Also, if you're a patron, please submit questions because we will answer those in the after show.
01:09:53
Speaker
And maybe you won't have to listen to us bullshit as much. We will bullshit just as much, but we will not answer your questions that you ask. So please submit questions.
01:10:04
Speaker
Yep. Uh, and whatever method you choose to contact us, I'm sure we'll get it. So with that, uh, Eric, you've come up with an interesting after show topic. Why don't you tease the listeners? Uh, if they become a patron, what they could have in store for them in this after show, we are making fun of Mary for not understanding the history of furniture. So we're playing, uh, trivia with the history of furniture.
01:10:31
Speaker
And we're going to dive right into it in the after show with which of the following is not a style of furniture. Federal, Rococo, Shaker or Acadian.
01:10:44
Speaker
Oh my god. And we'll get that in the app. We'll get Mary's wrong answer in the after. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. What about these five thoughts of happiness or whatever? Oh my god. Mary has read all of these. She immediately is like, I'm terrible. Yeah, of five regrets of furniture makers. Can you define styles of furniture? Oh my god. OK, bye. Bye.