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The Journey to Conscious Parenting: Learning, Reflecting, and Empowering Change (feat. Lisa Jean-Francois)
271 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to another episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast! In today's episode, we have an incredible guest joining us, Lisa Jean-Francois, to discuss the power of gentle parenting. Lisa believes that building a strong connection with our children is essential for understanding their needs and fostering a healthy parent-child relationship. She shares personal experiences, including a moment of misunderstanding her child's preferences and realizing the importance of connecting on a deeper level. Lisa highlights the significance of educating ourselves about gentle parenting and recommends resources like "The Conscious Parent" and "The Whole-Brain Child." She also delves into her own upbringing, reflecting on strict Haitian parenting practices and how it Initially shaped her approach to parenting.
Lisa is a passionate advocate for conscious and gentle parenting. She believes in prioritizing the well-being of children, both emotionally and physically. As a first-generation gentle parent, she acknowledges the journey of working through personal challenges. Lisa promotes a safe space for conversations with grace, empathy, and understanding. In her parenting approach, she emphasizes no hitting, yelling, threatening, shaming, or punishment. Instead, Lisa focuses on educating and guiding children towards doing what is right, without resorting to punitive measures. She firmly believes in the science-backed nature of conscious, gentle parenting, with research and studies supporting its principles. Despite facing criticism and skepticism, Lisa is determined to spread awareness about this unique philosophy of parenting.
Join us as we explore the transformative journey towards conscious and mindful parenting in this enlightening episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to Conscious Parenting
00:00:00
Speaker
I don't want to replicate the prison system at home. I mean, I don't think it's actually been effective. I mean, I was raised traditionally and was punished in the sense of, you know, I got spanked. I didn't really get like grounded. We just got yelled at and shamed and hit.
00:00:18
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
Meet Lisa: Conscious Parenting Advocate
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the therapy for dads podcast. I have a new friend, a new guest coming on who is Lisa. So Lisa, how you doing this afternoon or whatever time it is for you. It is afternoon for me. Good. How are you?
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm good. It's been a day. I think we both, in our quick green room, had some stuff that we were coming in from, from the day so far. And I think that's just life, right? At times, I think at my house, I had some vomiting kids all the past few days. So that's where I've been coming from. And you've been coming from just a busy day yourself. And we're kind of slowing down to have a conversation. So glad that you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about who Lisa is real quick?
00:01:13
Speaker
So I'm a creator. So I'm a conscious parenting creator slash educator, conscious, gentle parenting creator and educator on social media. I also have a blog. I also have a podcast and I'm a mom. I'm home with my kids. I homeschool them. And yeah, I've kind of segued away from
00:01:35
Speaker
the rat race, if you will. And I'm just focused on being a mom, healing, and just spreading the message of conscious and gentle parenting.
Gentle Parenting Philosophy Explained
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah but welcome and I think we hit it off having a conversation about that and this idea of conscious and gentle parenting and so that's kind of the topic of today is that and as a quick caveat I think there's different definitions you know some nuance to this concept of gentle conscious parenting and I think there's a spectrum of what that looks like and what that means and so
00:02:07
Speaker
for today's conversation you know at least lay a rough foundation of what that means and then we're going to go back in time a little bit for those that are you know as we're listening this a little back in time of Lisa's journey of coming to this place of this conscious gentle parenting so let's kind of live let's what's a rough kind of just structure of what that looks like to get a sense of for us.
00:02:28
Speaker
So essentially I look at gentle parenting or conscious parenting as a parenting philosophy and I intentionally use the term philosophy versus style because the way it looks like you've said is there's a spectrum of sort of what it looks like in real life or in practice.
00:02:47
Speaker
where we prioritize the well-being of the child, the emotional well-being of the child, the physical well-being of the child. And so there were just some things we don't do as conscious and gentle parents. So of course, there's no hitting, no yelling. I mean, listen.
00:03:03
Speaker
And when I say this is what we're not supposed to do, okay, but we're on a journey. Many of us are first generation, gentle or conscious parents. And we've got a whole lot of our own stuff we're working through. So we do our best. So I'll say that. I have all it's all the grace and the empathy and understanding the world here. This is a safe space to have that conversation. Absolutely.
00:03:25
Speaker
So there's no yelling, there's no hitting, there's no threatening, there's no shaming, there's no punishment, there's discipline, but it's not in the traditional sense of what people think of discipline. It's one where we educate or teach our children, guide them on how to do the right thing and what is right and what is wrong versus
00:03:46
Speaker
we don't really take any punitive measures against them. Conscious and gentle parenting is science-backed.
Lisa's Upbringing and Parenting Reflections
00:03:52
Speaker
And when I say science-backed, I mean, there's research, there's studies that sort of support every tenet of conscious, gentle parenting. And so, you know, a lot of people are like, what do you mean? You don't discipline. You don't, you know, I mean, it's been researched. And we understand that, you know, I don't want to replicate the prison system at home. I mean, I don't think it's actually been effective. I mean, I was raised traditionally
00:04:14
Speaker
and was punished in the sense of, you know, I got spanked. I didn't really get, like, grounded. We just got yelled at and shamed and hit. And that was more, I think my parents relied more on shame. That was the big way that we were punished. And that was something that was just almost unbearable for me.
00:04:37
Speaker
as a child, so I would avoid things because I just don't want to be shamed for having done them, but I never knew why I shouldn't do them, right? And so it's very different for gentle and conscious parents in that we are careful about telling and teaching our kids why they shouldn't do something and working with them and taking the time, right? Taking the time with them. And so we don't look for immediate results.
00:05:02
Speaker
in terms of if we tell the child one time, oh, you aren't supposed to do this, and this is why they may still do it. Because, of course, we recognize one of the other things that's really important about conscious and gentle parenting is that
00:05:14
Speaker
you do have to have some sense of child development and what's appropriate and what's not like what to expect because what is sort of you know the average parent doesn't have any sort of child development knowledge in terms of what happens when in the brain and all of that and so we have a lot of arbitrary expectations like
00:05:34
Speaker
If I tell the toddler no five times, the toddler's supposed to know. And if the toddler still does it, the toddler's doing it intentionally, they know better. And in fact, they don't know better. Their brains just don't work that way. So you do have to repeat yourself quite a bit. And that's why people say things like, kids don't listen well.
00:05:55
Speaker
You know, auditory processing, that's something that's not developed until they're 14 or 15 years old. And that's in a neurotypical child. That's not even, you know, neurodivergent.
The Importance of Emotional Regulation in Parenting
00:06:04
Speaker
I mean, I'm neurodivergent. Ask me something right now and see if I'm actually listening. Probably not. You know, I'm doing my best. What was the first point you said about gentle, conscious parenting? I'm just kidding.
00:06:14
Speaker
I don't even remember. See, see, you're testing me. I think it was no hitting. I think it was no hitting. That was it. No hitting. So many of the expectations we have as parents aren't actually rooted in reality.
00:06:30
Speaker
And when you have these unrealistic expectations, it leads to reactivity. And so one of the first things I did as a gentle unconscious parent is that I was reading materials to understand what is and what isn't developmentally appropriate. What should I expect? Why, you know, which has helped me to not take the behavior personally. So much of what we react partially to children
00:06:59
Speaker
because we often take their behavior as deliberate disobedience or disrespect when it's actually what they're supposed to be doing. And if you have that understanding, it definitely helps with not being as reactive. And certainly, there's the conscious piece that comes into things, right? And so we talk about being conscious, we talk about being awake or aware. And that takes, you know, you have to you have to educate yourself to get there, you have to do some of your own inner work.
00:07:29
Speaker
You have to figure out what your own triggers are because so many times we react. It's really not because the kids, the kids being the kid, it's our own stuff and working on our own emotional regulation. So it's a lot of work. And that is a really big, long, convoluted definition, but it's the one I got.
00:07:46
Speaker
No, I thank you for that, and it was well said. Really, with some of the stuff, the word philosophy, I think, is really used appropriately in this, that it really is a philosophy of way of being, a way of engaging, and not being a one-size-fits-all, but it's a way of thinking, a way of redefining, a way of
00:08:07
Speaker
a way of changing behavior, our own behavior and understanding, and it's also a challenge and a call to us to do our
Cultural Expectations and Parenting Challenges
00:08:13
Speaker
work. So if we could kind of, let's pin there, because we're going to come back to this point, but you hinted at kind of a little bit of how you were raised. And so I'm wondering, could you tell just a little bit about your, a little more of your story of how you were raised and then how that impacted and influenced your initial way of parenting until this shift? Like there was a shift that happened, and I want to hear about that, but what was that kind of history of
00:08:36
Speaker
bringing up to that point my childhood and what that did to me as a mom initially early on so what was that can you can you speak on that i think i just had like really high expectations just ridiculous expectations really so i was right i'm haitian so my parents are from haiti and traditional haitian parents are incredibly strict i would even venture to say and i mean i like listen i would
00:09:02
Speaker
I would argue about this, but I would say that the average Haitian child is a child who suffers abuse. And it depends on how certainly the parents aren't intending to be abusive. But it's just in the it's just the way that you're I mean, children aren't allowed to. You can't can't do anything like you are when they talk about like children are meant to be seen and not heard. That is the experience. That's true. That was your experience like that. That was reality.
00:09:29
Speaker
It was definitely strict. Like it was super strict. You absolutely, I mean, you couldn't even, the things that they view as disrespect, like, let's say like my dad was walking him or, you know, walking in the room and I'm like, you know, and I punch him in the arm. I'm like, Hey dad, what's up? What's going on? That would be disrespectful. You don't play with your parents. So my parents never even, you know, never played with us ever.
00:09:53
Speaker
You really even joking with them. You have to be really careful about the way in which you joke. So what it creates is, you know, not only a people pleaser, but you're just not yourself. Like who you are is you're almost raised to understand that who you are naturally, organically is not okay. And that you have to perform in these ways that are acceptable to your community.
00:10:19
Speaker
And so, you know, you're very respectful anytime, you know, when you walk in somewhere and you see you greet, we kiss hello. So you have to always, you know, kiss the adults hello. You greet them even if you don't feel like kissing somebody, you can't say hi. Saying a hi is disrespectful. I remember being little. I want to say I just got home from like kindergarten or preschool and my aunt was home.
00:10:41
Speaker
And I said hi to her. I did not go in and kiss her or greet her hello in the way that we're supposed to. And I'm fairly certain I got spanked over it. There's a lot I don't actually... I'll know something happened, but I have no memory of it actually happening. It's like a felt sense that it happened, but memory is empty. I don't know what it is, but I feel something in my gut.
00:11:06
Speaker
Black out completely. In almost every instance, I don't remember actually ever being spanked. I can't take my body into the moment of it happening. I can take it right before it happens. After it happens, the during, I can't take you through it.
00:11:25
Speaker
And this is stuff that I worked on in EMDR therapy. I just can't, which I think is pretty powerful because it speaks to how terrifying the experiences were for me. And I'm not even talking like, you know, getting beat with broom handles and beaten bloody. I'm talking traditional, like a spanking. I'm talking getting spanked, but it was terrifying for me. I never needed to be spanked.
00:11:48
Speaker
I mean, nobody needs to be spanked, but I'm telling you, I was a kid, tell me one time, and I'll never do it again, I promise. It was never a reason, but that's just what they knew to do.
Transitioning to Conscious Parenting
00:12:02
Speaker
You have to do that, otherwise you've not corrected the behavior. And so a lot of fear and shame was used in my upbringing.
00:12:11
Speaker
your body holds on to that. And so when I was as a mom, even though I knew I didn't wanna, it's just so funny. The whole time I'm a kid, I'm hating being a kid, I can't wait for it to be over. And then all of a sudden you're an adult and you're like, oh, it wasn't so bad. I made it through, it's fine. I'm okay, I'm good. And I would have called myself fine when I first became a mom.
00:12:37
Speaker
And so it was always about doing the right thing and making sure he, you know, my older son, he looked how he was supposed to look. He behaved the way he was supposed to behave. And if his behavior wasn't what I expected or wanted it to be, I took it personally and I was reactive.
00:12:53
Speaker
For instance, he said something to me today that the old me would have been mad about and would have been like, who are you to talk to me and tell me these things? So one thing I did today, which I don't normally do, but I did today because I just was frustrated and annoyed. So he wasn't going with the program. And he knows, he wants to play Minecraft all day, Minecraft and the Roblox and whatever. And we have homeschool we're doing during the day.
00:13:17
Speaker
And I try to make it as fun as possible. It's definitely not traditional in any way. But we do still have to do some of this math and reading and writing. And so he didn't want to get off. He didn't want to get dressed. He didn't want to do any of the things that he needed to do. So at one point while he was in the bathroom,
00:13:32
Speaker
I took his, he's got two computers. I took his two laptops and I unplugged them and then I put them in a drawer away so that he could come back and be focused and we can get going. So I explained that to him after he got out of the bathroom. He didn't love that, but we got the work done. Then we went to speech therapy, came back from speech therapy. He's like, where's my computer? Where's my computer? I was like, well, give me a second. I'll get it for you.
00:13:55
Speaker
So I handed over to him, he's like, well, next time I need you to ask. And I'm like, excuse me? He's like, yeah, next time it's mine, these belong to me, you just can't take them. And ordinarily, truthfully, what would have been respectful would have been, I mean, I was gonna take them regardless.
00:14:12
Speaker
But I could have told him, he was in the bathroom and I just took them. I didn't give the warning. I didn't say, hey, because of this, I'm going to take this away so I can help you so we can get your homework done. I just took it. He wasn't wrong. This is his personal property. I don't have a right to take it without informing him because it really wasn't going to be a situation where I was going to ask his permission. I was going to let him know that this is what was going to happen.
00:14:39
Speaker
And so the old me would have been like, you know, where do you get off talent? First of all, I bought these computers. Okay. And you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And you have to, you, you can sit here and say to me that I need to ask your permission to take something that I've, you know, I, that would have been the old me. Cause I was operating, you know, I w that's a, what is that adultism? I guess that's adultism, right? Where, where.
00:15:05
Speaker
you know, but I wouldn't have done that. What I did to him, I wouldn't have done to another adult. But we feel, because they're kids, that, you know, I even did it recently. Also, just, I think maybe last week, I told him we were going home, but then I made a couple of pit stops on our way home, and he's like, you didn't tell him. He's like, you know, I had a Minecraft date, you know, I had a...
00:15:26
Speaker
I had plans and you told me we were going straight home and now here you are stopping. Now, if I had had my mom in the car with me, my sister, a neighbor, I would have been like, hey, I'm going to make a stop here at the pharmacy on our way home. I would have announced it, but because it's a kid, I didn't think to do something like that. And so he calls me out on it because he's aware now of, you know, sort of how things are supposed to be and what fair looks like.
00:15:52
Speaker
But the old me wouldn't have done it. I would not have apologized for any of these things. I would have been like, you know. So I think that's a change. And I did spank him a couple of times when he was a toddler, which I'm not proud of. And he reminds me of because he remembers. Why did you do that? We don't hit people we love, right, mom?
00:16:15
Speaker
So he calls me out on it, but yeah, yeah, that would have been me. I was pretty – like I had pretty high expectations of him and I was strict. Yeah. It's – going back to your childhood, it was – sounds like while you knew you didn't want to replicate what your parents did because you said it yourself, like it was terrifying. It was a lot of shame and I didn't like this. I didn't like childhood because of it.
00:16:37
Speaker
my guess is some level of fear and anxiety around like you know what can I not do and I can't say anything and and then coming to becoming a mom now it's like you had this probably thing in you that I don't want to do that and yet maybe found yourself doing not exactly but some of the things that were parented to you because that's what you to some degree knew like my the old me would have been punitive and maybe just well this is my stuff doesn't matter like
00:16:58
Speaker
I don't you know I don't know the explanation kind of the authoritarian type of parenting which is like what doesn't matter what you like this is what I'm doing regardless because I'm the parent right but then the new you is this idea of like okay well I'm trying to make this change and so you know before we got to that change though there was this
00:17:14
Speaker
kind of falling into patterns of just what was familiar it sounds like prior right before you you had this epiphany or moment of something's got to shift falling into some similar patterns even spanking a few times and or maybe being more like high expectations but low connection or high expectations and high standards but i'm not really teaching i'm not
00:17:34
Speaker
No, there was no connection. There was no connection. I didn't even entertain that. It was like, I know I have to put you through, put you into daycare preschool. I need to make sure you've got, you look good yet you're fed and that I'm taking you to all your doctor's appointments. That was really my focus. I don't remember actually like,
00:17:56
Speaker
Playing with him when he was little little like I don't have that memory at all Like I'm always building puzzles now with the other one puzzles and legos and towers and things I don't Remember doing that much with my wit and in fact I don't I remember like the first time I even took him to like was pumpkin picking He was maybe four whereas his brother. I'm taking it six months. We're picking out
00:18:19
Speaker
He's been every year, every season. We're doing it all the time. It never even occurred. Honestly, the few times that we did do things together that he would like to do as a kid, I was actually nervous doing it. I wasn't comfortable. I felt uneasy. I felt like I needed
00:18:40
Speaker
you know, a friend to be doing it with me and needing to be invited to do these things versus actually feeling comfortable just even connecting with my own with my own kid. So it was really about providing like that was what I understood my role was as a mom, providing and meeting all of the physical needs. But emotionally, I didn't really understand what that looked like.
00:19:03
Speaker
Because I didn't have it, like my mom worked all the time. Yeah, right. You didn't have that, so you didn't have a grid or a model or a map of what that could look like. Because you had a map, you had a model, but that was a mom working and dad working at the home or, you know, you don't speak, you don't write, there's, you had a model. And so you kind of in a way took the, it sounds like, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you took the positive parts of what your parent did for you as a kid.
00:19:29
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to provide for my son in these ways, physical needs, looking the part, you know, behavior, kind of really, but it was, it was a kind of one-dimensional view of a child because then obviously this other big component is, well, there's that emotional piece that I didn't know how to do that. And so I'm wondering as a kid, what do you think in general, if you could like say this, I'm sure you've done some work on this already doing EMDR, like what do you think you needed to hear or receive from your parents as a kid that you didn't get emotionally?
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think just having a con like talking me down, like explaining to me that the way I like, I would have I was, you know, I just think I was born just a super sensitive kid, right? So I cried a lot as a kid. And I was always made to feel like my emotional response to things was completely insane. So I think having someone say, I understand why you're upset, I get it, like I, you know, granted,
00:20:24
Speaker
Maybe they wouldn't express being upset the way I would express it, which was like sobbing uncontrollably. But why I was upset, you know, as a human being, we should have, you know, you could understand why some, you know, but it was never, there was never any sort of understanding.
00:20:41
Speaker
about, you know, why I'm upset and what's troubling me and really no focus on like, you know, what are you interested in? What can we do to kind of lean into your interest? Let's, you know, what's something that would be specifically like, Lisa would like this. Let me do, like my mom would do things sometimes and like, she'd bring home like your favorite foods. Like she's, she was good at, she knew your favorite snacks. She knew your favorite foods. She'd do that.
00:21:07
Speaker
but there was never sort of an interest in knowing us as individuals and sort of leaning into what that is and making sure that we, you know, had an understanding of self and that being myself was perfectly fine and that, you know, I was a good, like just positive reinforcement, affirmations, definitely helped with emotional regulation because I never
Addressing Childhood Needs in Parenting
00:21:31
Speaker
learned. So no model how to regulate emotions either. So what you needed was
00:21:35
Speaker
Just, you know, just stop it. Stop crying. You're doing this for attention. Your interpretation was, I must be crazy. Something's wrong with me, right? Or something. Absolutely. Something's wrong. And that could be very, I'm sure, painful and isolating, right? Like as a little child. And so you had this longing, though, of wanting to be seen, wanting to be understood, and like, hey, these are big emotions. I'm here. You know, let's model how to navigate that.
00:21:58
Speaker
you know, they didn't have that, my guess, they didn't have that skill, right? They came from a framework, too. No, they didn't have it. I mean, they came from, I mean, just, you know, the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere. And although they didn't grow up from my understanding, I mean, my mom did more than my dad. My dad, my grandfather was, I guess, relatively successful. And so I don't think my dad, but my dad was the oldest.
00:22:27
Speaker
So he probably experienced some of the harder times and his younger siblings did. And, but they came from, I mean, I, if what I got was bad and it wasn't great, I can only imagine what they came from. So I do have a lot of, I don't, I don't harbor any.
00:22:45
Speaker
ill feelings towards my parents. I'm not mad at them. I look at them as people who did what they knew. And I guarantee what I got was better than what they had. And with that, I think it's an important perspective that not everyone talks about, that understanding the story of your parents. Because I think, and you tell me, but this is my sense with this, that we can have empathy and understanding that, yeah, my parents probably did. And not for everyone's case, by the way, but in your case,
00:23:12
Speaker
And I'd say in my case, yeah, I think my parents did improve from their parents because when I heard stories of their parents, I'm like, oh, that was definitely an improvement from what you got. I think we could have empathy and see that as an adult and also say, and you also missed me and here's what I needed. Like there is, it's like the empathy understanding of like they probably did and they still got some things wrong and they still did some things that actually were painful. It's like a both and, not an either or. Well, what do you think about that? Do you think it's an important perspective or not important perspective to have?
00:23:40
Speaker
I think it's super, I think it's important. I think you have to recognize in order to be a conscious parent, you can't skate over that stuff. You have to be able and be willing to confront the areas where they failed you. Because if you look at your parents through rose colored glasses, how can you parent differently? I think it's a struggle.
00:24:01
Speaker
You know, nobody wants to, I mean, not nobody, but a lot of us struggle when you know, like at the core, because so much of what we teach as in, or in the gentle parenting space, some of the creators anyway.
00:24:13
Speaker
or educators or whatever you want to call them. They say some really harsh stuff about parents who do the things that my parents did. And it almost makes you feel like I should hate them. They're horrible. The people who do these things, people who spank children are horrible people. They know it. They're abusers. They're this, this, and this. I don't have that. Even with full awareness that what they did was wrong. And I can confront that. I can see it for what it was.
00:24:43
Speaker
And I had to do that because otherwise, how could I parent consciously if I'm still sort of, you know, and I don't want to sound like an apologist. And I know that's probably what I sound like. But it's I don't think it's so cut and dry. I think there has to be some some nuance. I think there has to be room for some grace. And I
00:25:02
Speaker
And even though I can sit here and say, you know, how could they not know? I don't, I mean, what you know cognitively is often not what you do because you do what you've, what's been modeled to you and what your understanding is. And there's a lot of cultural pressure as well to sort of abide by these sort of standards that are within your culture. And it is, I mean, discipline is synonymous with spanking, hitting, beating, whatever in Haitian culture.
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah, and so with that, this synonymous with discipline in Haitian culture, I think a lot of cultures have that. I think a lot of people get stuck in that rigid, that it means punishment. In fact, I did a poll the other day on my YouTube channel asking that question. When you hear the word discipline, what comes to mind? And I put punishment or teaching. And half of the people said, well, punishment, right? I think, because that was, I think, even talking to my parents, because I've had conversations with them and I was spanked and things like that.
00:25:59
Speaker
according to them and now me and my dad have a great relationship and but we had a really some heart to heart conversations about stuff and you know his perspective was we just I mean back then yeah I was kind of talked about but not really he's like we there wasn't like a lot of parenting things going on it wasn't like let's be conscious like it was just that in fact they taught us that spanking was the norm that that was the thing you did taught by experts like that was the thing you know for 50 years ago 40 I mean
00:26:27
Speaker
So it's not until recently that we've started to see brain development and oh, maybe this isn't helpful. So I think some of it is within the context that was the norm and they did what was actually taught. Like there's a lot of things that were taught over the ages that have been incorrect.
00:26:43
Speaker
I mean there's a lot a lot of things that people were that experts taught or said this was the right thing to do I mean there was a time when they said don't don't touch your kid Don't hold your kid like Lee put them in isolation like if you even go back farther I mean there was a time when going to birth, you know birth that dad's you can't be in here
00:27:00
Speaker
You know, you're not in the birthing room. Like, that to me now seems insane, but back then, that wasn't insane. That was normal. And so I think a lot of this is, I think as we grow, my firm belief is that holding the two is going to be important if you want true healing. We need to be able to understand the context of what your parents come.
00:27:18
Speaker
and still call out what they did, in some cases, was evil, right? There's some, in some cases, it's pure evil, right? It's, it, and in some people's case that I work with, it's like, yeah, there's really no way around this. Like, this is just, this wasn't actually what was taught, right? There's certain things that weren't taught. It was like, and most likely it was probably out of their own trauma. It doesn't mean it's okay. But I think holding the understanding and letting go, as well as being able to call out and saying, this was not okay. And here's what I'm doing differently about it, like you said, is I have to see those things so I can change.
00:27:46
Speaker
So I can heal to then pass it down to my kids and the generations to come. And I think without that, I think it can cause more division and actually not true healing. I think it'll create a different problem in the end. Yeah. I've had people or, you know, people who follow me or comment and they'll say, you know, I don't spank my child, but I was spanked. I don't spank. I consider myself a conscious parent.
00:28:11
Speaker
But, you know, I don't think spanking affected me negatively at all. And I think, and listen, far be it from me to tell somebody that they're traumatized, right? It's far be it from me to be like, to define somebody's experience. But it's like, you're talking out of, as they say, you're talking to both sides of your, like you can't say that this was an okay experience. Because there's gotta, why don't you do it then if it was okay and it didn't affect you badly.
00:28:39
Speaker
You know what I mean? Why don't you try it? There's got to be something about it that you don't like and you don't think is quite right. Also, I would argue that a lot of people just don't. I think there are people who genuinely can't, from a psychological standpoint, can't go there within their own experiences. You just can't
00:29:01
Speaker
do it. Because I certainly have things that I'm just like, I remember saying to my therapist, like, just not going to touch that one yet. Maybe, maybe, but not yet. And there are things that just people cannot, can't do it. I think if I were to have a conversation with my parents, because you've had the conversation, it sounds like with your dad, I've not had the conversation with mine. I think I could have it with my dad. I don't think I could have it with my mom.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah, and that's another side piece is that not every person is going to be able to actually have a healthy conversation in there and that's a different piece. Not that we need to have our parent do that so we can heal because I don't believe that they, I don't see that we must have this in order for us to heal. I think that it's best like if we can, that's like the ideal but the reality is not all of our parents would be receptive to that.
00:29:48
Speaker
or would even be safe to do
Pandemic-Induced Self-Discovery
00:29:50
Speaker
that, right? So I think there's also, like you said earlier on, there's nuance to this, there's a philosophy or a structure and we have to work within that and what feels safe and okay for us with where we are or with our parent or with our children. But the core of it is going, the main philosophy is what I'm hearing the shift for you is going from kind of high structure expectations with no connection and demands on a child with kind of a lack of education. And again, back then,
00:30:16
Speaker
People didn't really know a law that much about development of the brain I mean that's that's more of a recent understanding and now shifting to still having high structure but high connection right connect you with your kid and empathy and Teaching I think that's the piece because then you go to what its banking teach you like what did it? Actually did it teach any skill right and I would say most people would say didn't teach me anything other than maybe I don't do that cuz I don't I get hurt right I don't want to you know
00:30:41
Speaker
I think in that sense, sure, it's highly kid. Well, I don't want that because that I didn't like that. So it taught that not to do something out of fear of being hit or hurt or, you know, grounded. So in that sense, it's fear based. So is it teaching? I would agree it is teaching, but is it effective? No, because there's still the lack of the skill, right?
00:31:01
Speaker
Right. Lack of the skill and then fear obviously manifests into anxiety and has all kinds of psychological stuff that shows up later. And most people don't make the connection to that. Like they won't ever make the connection that their anxiety and the fear they have about whatever is tied to their upbringing. Because they said, this is just what it was. It was normal. This is my, I'm fine.
00:31:24
Speaker
I have money, I have a job, I have my math, I have money, then it's fine. It's totally fine. And I think that we need to connect the dots. And that's often what I do in my office with individuals is let's look at this all. Like, I know you feel fine, but let's actually look at this. And often when I get in there, there's a wounded person in there that had a need.
00:31:44
Speaker
that wasn't meant and not to demonize the parent, but to say they didn't meet that. Even good intentioned parents miss things. And so, you know, coming to the present now with you that you had this epiphany, a moment in time where you had this upbringing, you know, and obviously now I'm sure you look, this is more recent now, if you're looking back, I'm sure of like, okay, my parents did the best, but when you were like probably five and 10, that wasn't probably there, right? It was just, I want to get out. I don't like childhood.
00:32:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I just I was afraid. I felt like, you know, you just didn't do. And there was so there was no connection at all. Like I can probably count on one hand how many sort of like family things that we ever did. Like literally, I think we went on like two family trips before I was 10. And now for a short break.
00:32:28
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:32:45
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:33:00
Speaker
You became a mom and kind of fell into some, not exact, but some of the old pattern kind of high demand, maybe authoritarian to some degree, right? Parenting. And then something happened. Could you kind of speak just a little bit about that and then we'll shift into kind of what you're doing now as a content gentle parent.
00:33:17
Speaker
Sure. So really, I mean, it all kind of all happened in this, like, it was a pandemic initially. So the pandemic's here. And I, you know, I had been parenting from, you know, an unconscious state. I'll just call it what it is. There was no connection with the child. There was no
00:33:35
Speaker
stopping and thinking and being present. I was always just reactive. I had things I needed to do and I needed him to fall in line and do those things. And if he didn't, it was like I never paused on how I reacted to him not doing what I needed to do.
00:33:51
Speaker
And this is prior to even understanding how neurodivergent he is, because he's got all of the acronyms. Frankly, he's got, you know, or even myself. So that we no one's been at this point is that it's early in the pandemic and none of us have been diagnosed since then. We've all been diagnosed, myself, my husband, you know, everybody's neurodivergent. We come to find out.
00:34:12
Speaker
We didn't know that then and so it's early in the pandemic and I'm finding myself being very reactive but in you know, but now we're home 24 seven and so it's it's I'm more aware of how reactive I am and I just happened to be on Facebook and some some random post came up and I got into this Facebook group and I was introduced to a
00:34:36
Speaker
conscious parenting. And I was trying to do it for the first, for what I thought was conscious parenting, right? For like the first year without being conscious of anything. I hadn't done any of my own work. I just knew I wasn't supposed to yell and hit you. And I wasn't really, I mean, hitting was never a huge part of my parenting. So that was easy to not ever do. But I was still yelling. I didn't really get it. I was still having, I was still an authoritarian parent, frankly.
00:35:03
Speaker
And it wasn't until this moment where I completely lost it and throughout, it was nighttime and I'm telling him over and over again, get in the bath, get in the bath, get in the bath. And of course, now I recognize he was overstimulated. He's tired. It's nighttime. The expectation shouldn't have been not only get in the bath, but clean up your thing. So I do the thing. I take all his stuff. I throw it in the trash. Oh, you don't care about this. If you cared about it, it wouldn't be on the floor.
00:35:30
Speaker
So I threw away all his stuff. And the next day, of course, I wake up and I'm horrified. And he's at school. So I actually filmed myself taking the things out of the trash. Because something inside you felt. Something inside me felt this is not normal and this is not right.
00:35:46
Speaker
And then I started really leaning in. I read Dr. Shafali's The Conscious Parent. I read The Whole Brain Child. And it all started. I started to actually understand what it means to be. And then I read The Body Keeps The Score. I got into my own. I got into my own healing. You know what I need to read? Now that I just remember the four agreements. That's the other one that I need to read.
00:36:10
Speaker
And so I, you know, I got into my own healing. I got out of a toxic work environment. I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and was made to understand that it is, you know, that there is a lot of thought that it's genetic. And so I was like, oh.
00:36:26
Speaker
I don't want my kids to have this.
Building Connections with Children
00:36:28
Speaker
And so all of that, you know, sort of helped to just really push me further into understanding what it means to be a conscious parent. My own healing and just changing the way I do things entirely. I'm imagining, because I've had low, even with being, I would call myself a conscious, mindful, you know, proactive attachment, you know, dad, I still have, I've had moments when I've raised my voice.
00:36:54
Speaker
absolutely my low when I have low you know high demand and my capacity is low and I you know I model apologizing but even those moments I still feel that like oh I got I know I got it wrong that's not what my kid needed I know what my and I got lost in my own nervous system and so I you know model the repair with him and and say but yeah dad dad lost it and
00:37:12
Speaker
That was me not regulating. I knew what I need to do and I'll take a breath. You're like, you're right. I didn't take a breath or, you know, all these things that I and they because they know it because I've been teaching them since a very young age and I'm not perfect. Right. But I've had that feeling of that in your stomach of like, oh, I missed it. Right. And I imagine you and the trash of just like, oh, I know that I missed it like.
00:37:32
Speaker
That's not what he needed but still not sure exactly what because again what I'm hearing is you didn't have the model so what you did do and let's shift this as we the last part of this kind of conversation is you know the shift for you is I started educating myself that's what I'm hearing so would that be the good first step for someone who maybe is coming from maybe a mindless or unconscious or kind of automatic I would call it parenting would that be a good first step of like beginning with some level of education?
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I just actually published this. This was how to begin dental parenting on my blog today. And that was the point number one is educate yourself for sure. You have to you there's just there's no way around it because you don't know what you're doing and why you're doing it.
00:38:16
Speaker
if you don't start there. So I always recommend, I don't even say The Conscious Parent, even though it's a great book, I think the book you wish your parents had read is an easier and faster read to just sort of like kind of throw you in. So I do that and the whole brainchild, like I've actually gifted those books to quite a few of my clients.
00:38:38
Speaker
because I think that there's no way around it. Otherwise, what are you doing? Because I've had so many people say to me, it's not working. Gentle parenting is not working. And I'm like, you don't know what you're doing. You didn't read anything, did you? What do you know about gentle parenting? Well, I watched a couple of TikToks and I'm like, no, not quite. Like someone literally had like an argument with me on Facebook today. She's like, I tried this gentle parenting. I put my kid in timeout. That stuff doesn't work. I'm like, well, ma'am,
00:39:05
Speaker
Timeout isn't gentle parenting, number one. So what exactly you, sounds like you were doing gentle talking. And you had some expectations that just kind of went in line with where your child is developmentally. So there's no way around education as first. Yeah, so number one would be like maybe two or three other, you know, when you're working with parents that like, this is the initial path. So first is education, number two would be what? What would you say?
00:39:27
Speaker
I think, too, you got to think about your own childhood. I think you got to reflect back onto your own child and really, really be honest with yourself. Like, what did you not like? What was that experience? And be willing to go there, even as hard as it may be, because it allows you to start building the empathy for your child and putting yourself in their shoes. Like, me being able to put myself in my son's shoes today, even with, one, last week with going without telling him we were going to stop at the pharmacy and wherever else I stopped, two,
00:39:56
Speaker
Taking his laptop away even though I was gonna take it away whether he wanted to or not But just informing him that I was going to take it away I know what that feels like like if I like you can't just take my stuff we get upset So I love that in a way treat them hmm treat them like the adult we're trying to model But we have to model because we know that developmentally not there yet But we still got to treat them with the same respect that we would an adult we wouldn't just take your stuff I wouldn't come and just take your laptop like I
00:40:22
Speaker
I wouldn't, I would tell you, but we got to do the same respect to kids at the same time, age appropriate, developmentally appropriate, because we're still teaching and everything we're doing is teaching. And so step one is education, step two is, I also agree with this, we have to look inward because we got to be aware of why are we reacting to these things, it's coming from something, there's a reason why we're reacting, there's a story behind that, why we do or don't do something, there's always a story.
00:40:47
Speaker
You have to know who you are and why you became who you are. Like you have to know all the bits or try to know, right? It's not like you're going to know it all and then you start gentle parenting. You're learning as you go. You're healing as you go. But so much of what we think is, well, it's my personality or I'm a Pisces. And so this is how we are, right? That's the story I went to years ago.
00:41:11
Speaker
Which I think is a rationalization, intellectualization to not actually have to grow and change. It's like, well, you know, I'm this, so I can't anyway. What you think is a way of shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak, of like, well, you know, I'm already a bad parent, so why try? Like, I'm this way, so there's no reason to even trying anyway. Like, I'm not gonna get anywhere, which is not actually, if you think, what do you want to teach your kid? What are you teaching your kid? Well, just to give up that, not to grow. Like, once you're stuck, you're in stone, right?
00:41:37
Speaker
So we got to understand our past. A good book on that, if you haven't read it, is Parenting from the Inside Out. That's a really good book by Dan Siegel, which he wrote books with Tina on like Whole Brain Child and stuff like that. So what would be number three? So number one is education. Two is look at your past. Three would be what? You know, I should know this because I wrote the blog.
00:41:56
Speaker
Connection. Honestly, work on connecting with your kids. Spend time. Get to know them. Because also, when there isn't that connection, again, you're more likely to misunderstand or misread their behavior or their response.
00:42:11
Speaker
I think I even mentioned this to you. There were books in the 90s that were like, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? They need to have something like that for kids because we misinterpret their response to things a lot. And if you don't have that connection with your kid, you're going to not quite get it. And you might be react. I have so many stories of how I've missed it. I remember last year, we were on a trip to Maine, really nice trip.
00:42:40
Speaker
And there was a candy store on the street in Maine. And I have the sweet tooth. So of course I'm like, oh, I want to get candy. So I say to my son, I was like, oh, I have a surprise. Let's go. He's like, oh, what's the surprise? I'm like, oh, we're going to go to this candy store over here. And he's like, oh, I thought it was going to be a toy store.
00:42:58
Speaker
I was pissed. I was so pissed. I'm like, this kid's so ungrateful. He's on this beautiful vacation. I mean, who doesn't want candy? And I read it as he was in gratitude. I took that as in gratitude when really it was just from a kid's standpoint, I like toys more than I like candy.
00:43:24
Speaker
It was just honest. It was just he's himself. It's honest. It wasn't, I don't care about this trip, F mom, F this vacay. It wasn't any of that, but I reacted to it like it was all of that. And then I apologized for my reaction. I did. I apologized for my reaction.
00:43:44
Speaker
And I worked on just connecting more because I'm like, I'm also, I'm still not, I'm not, and I honestly, to be honest, during that time I was working a crazy job and I was working all the time. So I really, I hadn't been like connecting and spending time and all of that. So this was like this one short brief moment where I spent time with them on this vacation because I was working on this vacation.
00:44:05
Speaker
and I just was so in my own mind and my own thoughts and my own anxiety and my whatever and you know so I think connection is such an important part of all of this like and you and you get to know them and their personalities and what their you know their sense of humor and like who they are as people in a very different
00:44:25
Speaker
I mean, it's not so foundational. It helps us inform us on how we need to actually parent and meet our individual kid because every kid is different. All three of my kids are different. Like there's some similarities, yes, but if I don't get to know them, I'm not gonna be able to speak their language and what they're needing from me because my eldest needs something different than my middle than my daughter.
00:44:42
Speaker
They all need, they all need connection, but in his own way. It's like adults, right? Like how do you feel connected? It might be different than your partner and husband. Just like adults, we need to meet, understand our kids' needs through connection and spending time with them to know that about them. So we know, oh, he does actually, this is just about, he just likes toys more than candy. I'm the one excited about candy. He could care less. He'd rather go to a toy store. Like maybe your other kid might be like, yeah, candy, let's get candy.
00:45:06
Speaker
like you know it's just because of where they are and I love that you said that because in his brain that it wasn't about the trip it wasn't about this it was like he was genuinely genuinely excited more and we missed that if we don't spend the time and so can you like what is one very practical way of parents like what do you mean I'm sure you had this question what do you mean connect I don't know how to do that like what do you mean connect with them where I don't even know how to do that
00:45:28
Speaker
Littlest things like with my older son, we go to Dunkin Donuts like once a week and he gets his favorite donut. We spend like, it's literally like 10 minutes and we're just chatting. Like I have tea, he has a donut and we just, we chat. You know, it's like in this small like little bit of time. And now because I do have more time, we take walks all the time because he's very into birding, which he, which now I'm into birds and nature and wanting to go. So we'll take random walks, like, okay, let's just walk up and down the street, see what birds we might
00:45:58
Speaker
we might find like it's little it doesn't have to be like extravagant you know things like you know extravagant like no it's walking up go for a walk with your kid up the street for five minutes like a day you know at night after dinner or whatever go for a quick neighborhood be present right just listen be present yeah
00:46:16
Speaker
Just be present, listen, hear what their minds are, what they're thinking of, what they're into, and just lean in. I have my entire families now, not just us in our house. My dad, my sisters, we're all trying to go birding, and everybody has leaned in. Your son.
00:46:35
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I think that just builds our self-esteem.
Healing Through Parenting
00:46:40
Speaker
Like it makes you feel so like important. Like people care about something that you care about. You know what I mean? And listen, he's autistic. So this is a special interest of his. So when you find somebody who likes your special interests, it's like, there's nothing better than that. Like, I swear. Yeah, my oldest son is for sure.
00:46:59
Speaker
His special thing is math and numbers. So that we could, for hours, we could talk. And so that's how I connect with him is, okay, let's just talk about numbers. And like, he just asks questions about just stuff I actually don't know anymore. I have to, thankfully, Google exists. So I do a lot of Googling to say, I don't know what this is, but I want to answer your question.
00:47:18
Speaker
And so I think it's, this goes back to this full circle is that, you know, hearing what you needed as a kid of really someone connecting with you on that level, and you're doing that in a way, and that's I think as parents, I would say we have the opportunity to heal in a way by being that parent that we needed to our kids, but uniquely in what they're needing from us.
00:47:37
Speaker
because they have a need and they're needing skills and they're needing a model. And that's what I think this whole idea of gentle, conscious, mindful parenting, positive parent, I think it was different words, positive parenting is, is really having a purpose, having a reason for what we're doing, not just to react. But there's always about teaching, we're having high connection, high structure, we're trying to teach a skill, walk them through it. So they were building this like kind of the structure for when they become adults.
00:48:04
Speaker
they'll know how to navigate a big emotion because, oh, mom sat with me in this and she, she helped me with this. It wasn't just like go to your room and be quiet. It was, I remember these moments that I was having a hard time. My mom just sat and like, I was okay. And she, once she loved me, wasn't, I wasn't told I was insane. I was actually, I was loved in that moment. And I don't know what to do because I was shown this over and over and over again. And now I could do it on my own.
00:48:26
Speaker
It's a journey. It's a journey. It's not a, you know, that's if I could give anyone a bit of advice who's sort of embarking on this is understand like it's a journey. It's a lifetime commitment. You will be repeating yourself a lot, a lot, a lot.
00:48:42
Speaker
and doing it with them over and over again, but they're going to learn and they're learning and you're learning too, because so much of little Lisa is still very much here. And so, you know, when I go outside with him and I'm looking at birds, like my own inner child is like, is all into it too. And I'm like, looking up like hiking shoes and things for summer now. I love that.
00:49:02
Speaker
Where does this person come from? It is a journey. It's a journey for sure. I love that. I think it's a great encouragement for parents that are starting that it's not just a destination, but it's a lifelong journey of learning, of being curious about, I think not only our children, but ourselves. You know, in the little Lisa, or like the little Travis, like what, you know, how do we reclaim that part of ourself that maybe we had to kind of push away because of for various reasons, survival, whatnot, that we can maybe allow to come out in our kids and
00:49:28
Speaker
and see that kind of be revived and reclaimed.
Conclusion and Resources
00:49:32
Speaker
So where can we find you? If people want to reach out for some support, Lisa, where are you? How do we do that?
00:49:37
Speaker
You know, consciouslylisa.com, that is, you'll find all my social handles there. You'll find links to my podcast, to my ebook, to my email. It's all consciouslylisa.com. Everyone that's listening, all of these links are gonna be in, if you're listening to the audio podcast, in the show notes, if you're watching this on YouTube, it'll be in the description. Everything will be clickable to take to her website, to her ebook, to her Instagram. Reach out to her if you're looking for this journey.
00:50:04
Speaker
She's friendly. She's passionate about this. She really cares and she gets you. I think she has this experience to have empathy and understanding for where you are. Even if it's slightly different, she can meet you where you are because I feel that warmth when I talk with her that she really does want to genuinely help and that's why I wanted her on this show is because there's a genuineness of care and seeking to understand and really to make a difference in all the lives of the next generation. So thank you, Lisa, and have a great rest of your day. Thanks, Travis.
00:50:32
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.