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Discipline: Punishment vs Teaching (feat. Dr Tina Bryson @tinapaynebryson)
459 Plays2 years ago
On EPISODE 65 of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, Dad, husband, and therapist Travis invites Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (@tinapaynebryson) to share important insights on disciplining children. Dr. Bryson is an author and licensed clinical social worker, and she is the founder and executive director of the Center for Connection in Southern California, a parenting educator, and clinician worldwide. Travis and Dr. Bryson discuss various key points, such as how children need appropriate demands and how natural consequences can be helpful. They also touch on the importance of structure, expectations, limits, and boundaries, as well as connection, validation, empathy, and emotional responsiveness. Dr. Bryson explains that discipline should be viewed as teaching instead of punishment, with the goal of helping children become self-disciplined individuals. Finally, she shares an inspiring story from a father who used her techniques of empathizing with his child to down-regulate their nervous system during a tantrum.
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Transcript
Introduction to Therapy for Dads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
We want to be the safe harbor in the storm, the calm of the storm, the eye of the storm, instead of joining the storm. This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched, evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the Therapy for Dad's podcast. I am extremely excited, humbled, grateful to have this guest on this afternoon or morning or evening, whenever you're listening to this. It's someone that I've...
00:00:43
Speaker
We'll learn a lot from as a parent myself.
Influence of Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
00:00:45
Speaker
I've read a lot of her work and have shared her work with friends, with clients, with pretty much everybody. I really believe in the work she's doing and has been doing for years. She said yes and I had to have her on the show because I think what she's doing is so important.
00:01:02
Speaker
not only for us as adults, individually as men and women, as parents, but also as we help raise our kiddos impacting the next generation for the better. So I'm going to introduce her, and this is for Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. And she's the author of The Bottom Line for Baby, which is one of her more recent books and co-author with Dan Siegel of some amazing bestsellers, which is The Whole Brain Child and No Drama Discipline.
00:01:30
Speaker
Each of those have been translated in over 50 languages, as well as the yes brain and the power of showing up. She's the founder and executive director of the Center for Connection, which is a multidisciplinary clinical practice in Southern California. Dr. Bryson keynotes conferences and conducts workshops for parents, educators, and clinicians all over the world, and she frequently consults with schools, businesses, and other organizations.
00:01:56
Speaker
As a licensed clinical social worker, she is a graduate from Baylor University with a PhD from USC. And the most important part of her bio, she says, is that she's a mom to her three boys. And you can learn more about her about Dr. Bryson at TinaBryson.com. So without further ado, welcome, Dr. Bryson. Please call me Tina. And thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here today.
Understanding Discipline
00:02:20
Speaker
Yes, I will call you Tina and thank you. And thank you again, so really honestly humbled. I remember reading your work in grad school for the very first time and the whole brainchild book was the very first one I stumbled upon. This is about 10 years ago. And I remember reading it and thinking, yeah, this is totally just spot on, like a glove.
00:02:39
Speaker
as I got licensed became a clinician and became a father myself really seeing how important this is and understanding kind of brain development as well as a tuned secure attachment and being connected with our kiddos and how how much that makes a difference um and so today the the topic of conversations today is going to be all about discipline which i know i think is a big favorite topic of yours yes i love talking about it and really my my life's work is
00:03:08
Speaker
has always been really about how do we see and understand kids' behaviors and how do we respond to them in a way that keeps the brain and the nervous system and relationship in mind. And really, one of the main reasons I love to talk about it is I want to be part of a revolution along with a lot of other people in this space who are really changing how we see and respond to kids' behaviors with the brain in mind. And a lot of what we typically do in the name of discipline is not only
00:03:38
Speaker
outdated, but it's counterproductive. So when you really understand the nervous system and how kids learn and the power of positive, safe experiences in relationship that are repeated over and over and over, it's really pretty altering. I'm all about what works though. So we're going to talk about effectiveness and what works and also how important it is to have rules and boundaries and limits and high expectations. So this is not a,
00:04:04
Speaker
soft, permissive approach, but it's a really intentional one.
Evolution of Discipline Methods
00:04:10
Speaker
So anyway, those are some of the reasons I love talking about it.
00:04:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm wondering, you know, I think from the generation my parents were and, you know, discipline, you know, a lot of what looked like for me growing up, and maybe you could speak to kind of the shift from discipline, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago to now. I know there's still revolution, there's still, we're still shifting the ship. It's a big cruise ship, I think, I'm sure, as you're seeing, it's not just a quick, you know, 180.
00:04:35
Speaker
You know, I think when I was a kid, you know, really it was said to my room, you know, go in there until you're calm, then come out when you're collected. It was a lot of that or consequences of just, well, we're taking this away. And, but that was it. There was, I remember just a lot of times in my room, I was grounded a lot, not a lot, but enough to be, and I learned just, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that again. And then I became the good kid, but my brother, he didn't really learn that so well. I remember he was often in his room and I'd be out and he'd be upset.
00:05:03
Speaker
You know, discipline in my home was just kind of go to your room. That was, I think, the theme, if you will, more than anything else. And my parents would come in and, you know, maybe give me a hug after, but it was more often than not just kind of alone and by myself and thinking about what I did wrong. And I have a memory of...
00:05:20
Speaker
my parents saying, well, think about what you did wrong. And I remember sometimes I don't even know what I did. Sometimes I'd be sitting there thinking like, I don't know. And I felt like I was guessing sometimes. So I'm wondering what was the kind of the old model that the stuff that we're shifting from that you're seeing, how discipline was done.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think if you think about how we use the word discipline or disciplinarian or disciplinary practices, like the way that word is still used in our culture, it still is very much thought of as punishment. And that's sort of the lens is like, so if someone's like, that kid needs more discipline, they mean punishment. When someone says at a school, here are disciplinary policies, they mean consequences and punishments, right?
00:06:04
Speaker
So I think traditionally we all still have that really embedded in how our brain has mapped what the meaning of discipline is. But the problem is, and I'll say too that this is still the case, but certainly more so in previous generations of parents, is that a lot of times parents or teachers are disciplining just because they feel like they have to. So like, well, I guess I have to give you a consequence because if I don't, then you're going to be spoiled or you're going to grow up to be a terrible person. Like I think a lot of,
00:06:33
Speaker
just fly by the seat of the pants, gut reaction throughout a consequence or a punishment is just because we somehow know that like kids need some sort of accountability for their behavior and they need to change their behavior or they don't grow up to be good people. So that's where that I think it's really well intentioned. But if you go back to the, so when Dan and I were writing No Drama Discipline, we had a colleague who said to us, please don't use the word discipline in the title of your discipline book because what people think of and what that word connotes is
00:07:04
Speaker
So we were like, how about if we just totally change culture and we revolutionize how we think about discipline in a more updated way based on what we know about the science. But more than that, how about we reclaim the original meaning of the word? So if you think about disciplines in a college or you think about disciples, or you think about some of these other ways that the word has been used historically, the word itself or its origins go to the idea of teaching and skill
Goal of Discipline: Self-Regulation
00:07:32
Speaker
building.
00:07:32
Speaker
And so here's, here's what I will say too, is I've had a lot of parents in my office and I ask them, what is your discipline philosophy? And they're like, and by the way, parents are almost never on the same page. Um, so if you're feeling that you're with the majority, um, but oftentimes they're like, well, I don't know. I just want them to be a good person. Like there are people that have not really usually ever even asked the question, what is our discipline philosophy? But here's what I would, um, offer up and here's how I think about it. Given everything I know about child development and the nervous system and all of this stuff is that.
00:08:02
Speaker
We should first start with our goal, our goal of discipline. What is my goal of discipline? My goal is to have a child who becomes self-disciplined so that they do the right thing and handle themselves well without anybody else watching. That there's an impulse to do something, they stop themselves from doing it if it's not right, and they make a different decision. That's my goal for discipline is to become a self-disciplined person.
00:08:28
Speaker
What the science tells us about how we get them there is through lots and lots of teaching and skill building. Now, the brain is plastic, meaning it's moldable. It's changeable through experiences. And children's brains are way more, I mean, we
00:08:45
Speaker
Fortunately, we have plastic brains through our entire lifespan. So it's never too late for any of us, but it's excessive. Like the ability to change the brain from experience is wide open in childhood and even through adolescence and into the twenties. So this means we have a tremendous opportunity as people who guide our children and teach them and love them, but also discipline them. And by when I say discipline from my lens, I mean teach to teach them.
00:09:14
Speaker
And the way we get there is just like when I lift weights and I do reps, I build that muscle. The way we get kids there with plasticity of their brain and mind is through many, many, many reps.
00:09:28
Speaker
and learning as development unfolds. So you could give a six month old a bunch of reps of putting them on the toilet to use the toilet instead of a diaper and developmentally they're not really ready for that yet. So we have to hold in mind the context of development because we're so far off Travis in our expectations.
00:09:50
Speaker
I really want to coach a six-year-old to say to their parent, like the parent says, how many times do I have to tell you? Like, I told you not to do that. I told you not to hit your sister. Why are you hitting your sister again? And I want to coach the six-year-old to say, well, given my undeveloped prefrontal cortex that doesn't yet have great impulse control, and given that I'm going to need probably
00:10:13
Speaker
40 to 60 reps at least over at least a three month period for me to be able to do that once I'm developmentally ready to have those lessons embedded, then I'll get it. So, you know, just like when you heard seven times seven equals 49, you didn't have that down. You had to hear it over and over and over and you had to write it down and you had to use your flashcards. And so we need reps and we know that children learn best in two ways. One is by what is modeled for them.
00:10:39
Speaker
So if we want our kids to be emotionally regulated when they're angry and handle their anger and appropriate relationally and within enough self-control that they're not doing harm, we have to model that. And the second way they learn best is by practicing doing it themselves. So they need practice stopping their bodies from hitting their sibling when their sibling makes them mad, right? So I think all of this is the idea that if we can just shift from punishment and consequences
00:11:09
Speaker
to teaching and skill building, it's a huge game changer. And let me just say one more thing about that. That means that every time it's a discipline moment, we should be asking is my child ready to learn in this moment, because we've been taught wrong based on mostly animal research in the fifties, that if we don't handle it right then and there, they don't learn, that's not even true of a two year old.
00:11:30
Speaker
So are they ready to learn? And then ask the question, am I ready to teach? And if the answer to either of those is no, then it's time, it's better to wait. And everything we do in the name of discipline should make it more likely our child will do it right or better the next time.
00:11:47
Speaker
And when we think about it like that, like I'm in a discipline, I'm going to teach in response to my child's behavior. And I want to do it in a way that's giving them a rep to allow them to do it better over time. If I just punitively send them to their room, that doesn't do anything to give them any kind of practice or to give them any kind of skill or strategy to stop their bodies from hitting their sibling the next time. So.
00:12:12
Speaker
It's much more moving our lens from instead of doing something to them, like punishing them or giving them a consequence. And I'm not saying there's never a reason to give a consequence. That's very nuanced, obviously. But instead of doing something to them, what I need to do is something for them in order to give them practice learning those skills so that they can do it for themselves.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that the rep analogy. I use it so often with clients I work with. I look, I work primarily more with adults. Um, but it is, it's practice repetition. And I think sometimes we just think, and I, I do work with kids too and parents and cause they come to my office and I've heard this, like a three year old comes in and they say, he has an anger issue. He has anger problems.
00:12:58
Speaker
And it's this expectation, I think, going back to what you said, this expectation that you should be able to teach the kid one time, a three, four, five, six-year-old one time, and then they should just get it for the rest of the eternity. Right. It's like, why should you? Like, you should just get it. And I think hearing that as it is, it's this idea that we don't understand that the brain is still growing and developing, that we expect these are small adults, because I hear parents say, well, they got it this time,
00:13:22
Speaker
You know, but why did they get it next time? So what would you say to a parent like that? Like, well, they got it and now I got to teach it again. Like it's almost like a frustration from the parent to even have to do this again. I mean, we could spend an hour just answering that question, but I'll say two quick things. One is just speak up. Okay. Let me say it this way. Travis, I bet you're a really patient parent who is really intentional most of the time. Yes.
00:13:43
Speaker
Are you patient and intentional every moment of every parenting? Right. Absolutely. Absolutely not. Me neither. OK, so just because we can do something right or well doesn't mean we can do it every second. We can't just because you can in one moment, one moment doesn't mean you can in every moment. So that's one thing. The other is our capacity to regulate our bodies and to regulate our emotions and to pause and make a decision. All of these really sophisticated things
00:14:13
Speaker
that we have to do in order to be well-behaved are all prefrontal. And our kids have very undeveloped prefrontal cortices. Our capacity to handle ourselves fluctuates all the time. So when you've had a good night's sleep, probably a rarity if you have three small children, but if you've had a good night's sleep, you're getting along well with your spouse, you have had some time for yourself, you've been exercising,
00:14:40
Speaker
You have, you know, you're not starving, your blood sugar is fine. Your capacity, your patience is going to be great, right? You're probably going to have high capacity. So whether a demand of, so let's take this to a kid level now.
00:14:56
Speaker
If you have had a nap and a snack and someone's engaged with you in a positive way and you're in a great mood, your capacity is going to be really high. So when your little sibling or when you're 18 month old takes your toy away and you're three and you're building something, they might say something like, I was playing with that. Can I have it back, please? Right. So they have great capacity. They handled it like you're like, wow, look how amazing and mature and bright my child is. Right.
00:15:22
Speaker
But if it's 20 minutes before the nap, or right before they've eaten and their blood sugar is low, or they're not feeling well, or they're going through a growth spurt, and so you don't even know that something else is going on yet, because they haven't outgrown the pants, but in the three to six weeks before that, they might be more sensitive and more volatile emotionally.
00:15:40
Speaker
their capacity may be a lot lower. So sometimes I always think about it like in terms of capacity and demands. So a demand might be really high sometime, like pausing and controlling your body if you're really angry. That's a big demand for a three-year-old.
00:15:56
Speaker
Brushing your teeth when you're in a good mood is a low demand for a three-year-old, okay? So the demands of your day might be really high or really low, or being brave at drop-off and not grabbing onto your parent and screaming and crying. Like, that's a big demand, right? But your capacity fluctuates too. So if your capacity is high, you can handle high demands. If your capacity is low, you may not even be able to handle lower demands. So it's really thinking about what is the demand and what is the capacity and are they a match or not.
00:16:24
Speaker
And if your child chronically is not matching the demands, we first have to ask the question, is the demand I'm thinking of developmentally appropriate? Am I asking something of my child that they are capable of doing? And just because they're capable of doing it sometimes doesn't mean they're capable of doing it all times. And then if you determine that what you're asking of a child and whether this is in a classroom setting or at home or whatever,
00:16:48
Speaker
is developmentally appropriate and most other kids are able to do that then we need to start looking at what is getting in the way of my child reaching that demand and then that might be a time to seek out some expert advice you know your child might have a sensory processing challenge or
00:17:03
Speaker
There may be a little bit of a developmental delay around language or something else going on that might account for that gap. So that's the other thing, not just around when something's not quite happening developmentally, but in all cases, we really want to be curious about our kids' behaviors.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I've seen that too. I'm thinking of, you know, my eldest who is like a two-wee, gifted kid with like some sprinkling of ADHD in there where part of him is far accelerated, but his emotional, uh, lability reactions are much higher, right? And so we've learned that with him to work with him, which is very different than my middle son. Um, and then my daughter, well, she's just, she's just her right now. She's just a hot mess half the time. But
00:17:46
Speaker
But it's so funny, do you see that? I love that image of capacity and demand. Like what are their current strengths and what are the things that we need to help scaffold with them to build that skill set and know that it's going to be repeated experiences much like lifting weights over and over and over again. And going back to the first two things you said, I think it's so important is yes, capacity and demand, which is like a few things. But the other is, is my child ready and end?
Parenting with Intention
00:18:10
Speaker
Am I ready? Because I think that's where a lot of parents get stuck is they're not actually ready. There's definitely times that I haven't eaten food or I haven't had a good night's sleep and so my capacity is like my window is here, you know, like it's like having my iPhone charged like 10% but I'm expecting it to work all day and so I, if I hear my kids having a conflict,
00:18:32
Speaker
There's been times I rush in there and I'm already in a dysregulated state and I'm like, I'm this big presence versus hold on, let me breathe, let me walk in there calmly, get on the floor, right? So they play off of our emotional state too. So I even have to ask, okay, am I in a good space or do I need to just take 10 seconds to breathe before I walk in there?
00:18:52
Speaker
You know, and so it's, those are wonderful questions. Are they ready? Am I ready? And what's the capacity and demand for the day? Because it's constantly fluctuating. And for us as adults, we have to take all these things into account. I think what happens is we're, my experience, what I've heard too is we're rushed. We, it's like rushed parenting. It's like, well, we got to get out the door. We got to go here. We got, it's like this. And so we kind of try to throw everything into these busy schedules and then it just creates more meltdowns for everybody.
00:19:22
Speaker
And that's a reality, right? So, you know, most of the time we really can't make our lives less chaotic. And I think one way to think about it is like the brain is either in a reactive state or it's in a regulated state. So if we're in a reactive state, if our kids in a reactive state
00:19:42
Speaker
then usually not very, we're not going to have the best outcomes, right? Those are the moments that are not the moments where I'm at my best self and not the moments where my kids are. So if you find yourself in a position where your kid is not regulated and you're not regulated, obviously if you have little kids, the first thing you need to do is make sure everybody's safe.
00:20:00
Speaker
Um, but I think, you know, I want to give everybody permission to say, um, this is not the right time. And even, we can even say to our kids, especially as they get older to say, I really want to think about how I want to respond about this. So we'll, we'll have the conversation in a little while, or I'm really frustrated right now and I'm not my best self. So I'm going to go, I'm going to take a break and I'm going to get myself calmed down before we have this conversation so that I can be really thoughtful about it. I mean, I think that's really good modeling, but what's interesting is, and, um,
00:20:28
Speaker
This is a little bit of a radical idea is that if the point and purpose is to teach and build skills so that they can become self-disciplined, then everything I do in the name of discipline is about teaching and skill building, getting those reps in. If my child is not ready to learn,
00:20:43
Speaker
Then what do I do in the name of discipline? I want to co-regulate with them, meaning they're not regulated. So I'm going to bring my calm regulated self. It's just like when they were babies and they would cry and you would calm their little nervous systems down through whatever that was, feeding them.
00:21:03
Speaker
um, rocking them, walking them, taking them outside, singing to them. We do these things to regulate their nervous system. Okay. And, um, and so as they get older, this might mean a calm presence. It might mean hugs. It might mean some of those same things rocking or walking outside. Um, as we get into teenagers, it might be simply saying like, I can see you're having a really hard time and I'm right here with you.
00:21:25
Speaker
while you're having a hard time, just the availability of your presence. It might mean bringing them a snack, you know, or whatever it is. But what you're doing is you're offering verbally and non-verbally, you're offering comfort, connection, help. And you're not doing that to be passive and weak. You're doing that to strategically regulate their nervous system. Because if you can move them from reactive into regulated and receptive, then that's when the teaching is most effective, okay?
00:21:51
Speaker
So one thing that I will just throw out is if you're not ready to teach and if you're not regulated and you are hurrying and it's really hard and you can't stop to collect yourself, one thing we know and this is something I've been teaching for a long time but I just learned from Andrew Huberman on his fabulous podcast that it's called the Physiologic Psi, I didn't know it was called that and apparently it's been studied since the 30s and I've been teaching this for decades not knowing what it was called or what the history was.
00:22:17
Speaker
Um, but it's the quickest thing we know to down regulate reactivity in the nervous system. And all it is, is something we actually do all the time automatically, which is a deep sigh. So oftentimes it's a frustrating day. You're like, but the physiologic side, you can do purposely. And all it is, is having your exhale longer than your inhale. That's there are different ways people do it. And there's.
00:22:38
Speaker
different hacks around all of it or whatever, but simply for me, I would breathe in through my nose for a count of four and breathe out through my mouth for a count of eight and I would do that twice. And it really is, and I usually have a hand on my heart and a hand on my belly when I do it. It is really powerful. And what's interesting too is if you do that before you yell, if you do that to like regulate yourself and calm yourself down,
00:23:01
Speaker
Um, your kids are also seeing that they can learn how to do it too. You can do it. You can be like, I'm mad. You're mad. Your sister's mad. We're all having a hard time. Let's calm our bodies, right? You can do that. But also what was funny is every time I would do it when my kids were really little, um, my kids, it became almost a warning sign. They were like, Oh, mom's now reached her point where it's about to get ugly. So they would often rein it in. Cause it was almost like,
00:23:24
Speaker
a precursor to mom being crazy. So that was helpful too. So I think that idea though of how do we get them from reactive into receptive where our teaching is effective, we do it through regulation, regulation of ourselves and co-regulation. And sometimes that just literally means I can see you're having a hard time. I'm right here with you while you're having a hard time. Or
00:23:47
Speaker
What do you need? Or how can I help? It's simply that. Then they get to the regulated place, then they're ready to learn. And we want to hold them accountable for their behavior. And we say, I know you know it's not okay to hurt your sister. I know you know that. So what do you think happened there? And then how can you make things right with your sister? And what can you do next time when you're really angry? Because it's okay to be angry, but it's not okay to hit your sister. So what could you do next time? And you have a reflective dialogue.
00:24:13
Speaker
And at the end of that, and then they maybe go apologize and we maybe do some practice about what they could do next time. At the end of that interaction, have I taught? Yes. So I'm done. I often tell a story about a time my, one of my sons hit his little brother. And, um, I wanted to, my, my reaction in the moment, you know, I've got to deal with the perpetrator, right? This is the discipline moment. And so my instincts in that moment in a more reactive place, cause someone's just hit my kid, even though the perpetrator was also my kid.
00:24:40
Speaker
is to like yell and be like, why did you just hit your brother like that? Like, you know, that's not okay. What's wrong with you? That's like my, you know, or why can't you just chill for one minute and let me finish brushing my teeth? You know, there's like those kinds of things. But often we send, we throw out a consequence. I'm like, go to your room. And, and then I, my prefrontal cortex is trying to come up with a good reason. So I say, you clearly can't be with people today. So I'm canceling your play date. Right. Hmm.
00:25:04
Speaker
What happens if I throw out a consequence and I just am punitive and I'm doing that out of my own reactivity and my own fear that if I don't hold my kids accountable for their behavior, they're gonna eventually just live in a van down by the river and not amount to anything. What happens though is my kid goes to his room and he sits in his room
00:25:24
Speaker
And here's what he's thinking. My mom is so mean to put me here. And it was Luke's fault in the first place because Luke didn't let me finish the story I was telling to grandma on the phone. And I really wanted to tell the story and he always takes over because he's bigger than me and he's stronger than me. And I hate him and I hate my mom because she doesn't even know how hard it is for me to be little. And that's the thinking that's going on. Does that help him be accountable for his behavior? No, he's actually doing more blaming.
00:25:52
Speaker
And so the consequence itself is actually counterproductive. It's anti-learning, it's anti-accountability. Instead, if I hold him and I say, oh buddy, you're so mad, I can see your whole body shaking, I'm right here with you, what happened? So he tells me what happens. Then I say, oh, that would have made me so mad too. So I'm connecting and giving him empathy. And connection and empathy down regulates the nervous system. And I'm holding him and I go,
00:26:21
Speaker
I give the sigh and he copies it and I say, Oh, that would have made me so mad too. I understand why you were mad and I pause and I wait for his body to get regulated. His breathing becomes more regulated. His muscles go from tents to, to kind of just natural. So I'm watching this unfold in his body. I can feel it. I can see it.
00:26:38
Speaker
And I can feel him get to this regulated state. And when he's regulated after I've done connection and empathy and validated his feelings and said, I'm right here with you while you're feeling all of these stress hormones pumping through your body from anger and dysregulation, then I say, hey buddy, you really hurt Luke.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I wait and I let him feel the weight of that once he's in a regulated state. Because if he's still in a reactive state, he's like, good, I'm glad I heard him. I wish I had heard him more because we can't access empathy if we're still reactive. Our prefrontal cortex goes offline. That's where Empathy Center is. So then I can say to him, you really hurt your brother.
00:27:14
Speaker
And then he feels bad and he can sit in that feeling. And I say that feeling you're having right now where you're like, Oh, I feel bad. I did that. That's an amazing superpower you have. That's the voice inside of you that will help you decide if things are right or wrong. And I want you to listen to that feeling. And the good thing is we also have a superpower in our family of, um, just like no one can beat Superman speed.
00:27:34
Speaker
No one can beat our love and our love can't be lost. And so you can go make things right with Luke. How do you think you should do that? And then we have a conversation. You know, I know it's okay to get mad, but it's not okay to hurt anybody. Everybody needs to feel safe. So what could you do differently next time? So he's sitting in the feeling of accountability of, Oh yeah, I did something that wasn't great. Okay. But now I can go make things right. So he's learning repair. We're talking about.
00:27:56
Speaker
some reps for how he might be able to handle this in the future while i'm waiting for his brain development to unfold he's unlikely to do this a year from now as his brain develops so at the end of that i sure i could have given him a consequence and by the way having to have the reflective dialogue is not his favorite that i guess is a consequence right
00:28:13
Speaker
and having to go and say, I'm sorry to the brother, that's not fun. That is a consequence. So I think it's all in how
Reflective Discipline and Accountability
00:28:20
Speaker
we define it. But I think punishment here, as you heard, if I had just sent him to his room and taken something away, it would have been counterproductive. It would have been anti-learning.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so those listening, by the way, you're gonna, that that's pure gold. I mean, she, she answered so many questions that Tina just answered. Like, why would I do this? Like, why, why should I do this? Like, what's the benefit? I mean, there's just laid out everything from our nervous system, the brain development to co-regulation. I mean, there's all these little nuggets. So you're going to want to probably replay that little rewind, you know, a minute or two and listen to that again, because there's so much
00:28:55
Speaker
nuance in little things that Athena was describing that was occurring as a parent to help your kiddo rather than like you said just go punished you know consequence in the room because you're right. So I guess with that for a quick angle of like if that's kind of what we're doing that punishment if discipline equals punishment if we're just putting our kid in the room what are some like two or three problems that can arise from that type of parenting that you've seen time and time again?
00:29:19
Speaker
the consequence driven, punishment driven. Yeah, I mean, I think what happens is, first of all, the kids then don't build the skill to do better the next time. So it's a missed opportunity, number one. I'll tell another really quick story. I work in a lot of schools and so I had this kid who kept using inappropriate language during unstructured times, like during library. This is like a first grader.
00:29:39
Speaker
And he kept getting consequences at school for doing, you know, he, he was kept saying butt crack and stuff like that, all the body humor, which of course the kids love. And, you know, most adults still think it's funny too. And myself included. Yeah, I like it too. And yeah, it's a great way to keep my kids regulated with singing songs with lots of body humor in them and in the car.
00:29:59
Speaker
Um, so what happened was they kept giving this kid consequences, missing recess notes, home, you know, sitting in timeout, all these different things. And he kept doing the behavior. And so then they were kind of like, we don't know what else to do. So I went and observed this kid and it turned out that, um, here's a huge principle and I'm going to hold on to your question, but behavior is communication about the skills our kids don't yet have.
00:30:19
Speaker
So basically this kid was saying to, so I observed this kid, he had a really hard time entering play with other kids. He didn't know how to initiate getting involved, getting included in the group. He didn't know how to do that. So what happened was I saw his behavior as him basically saying, I don't have any strategies. This is my best strategy for how to engage with my peers. So again, instead of doing something to him, like taking away recess, we want to do something for him. So I'm going to respond by saying, Hey, it seems like when you say butt crack,
00:30:48
Speaker
all your friends laugh and then you get to be part of the group. And he's like, yep.
00:30:52
Speaker
And I'm like, so the bad behavior was his best strategy. It was his best adaptation. So instead of doing something to him, I wanted to do something for him to give him another strategy that worked, right? So basically we practiced things like, can I sit here or to tell a funny joke that was, was appropriate to use at school or different things like that. So he needed some skill building. Behavior is communication. I love doing this activity with parents and all of you can do this where I have them right at the top of a piece of paper, discipline problems.
00:31:22
Speaker
And to come up with the two or three things that drive you the most crazy, that you're spending the most time on, that you feel like you're butting your head against a wall and list those. And then I ask people to cross out the title of the list. It's no longer discipline problems. The title of the list is Skills My Kid Doesn't Have Yet. And it frames us into teaching. So what happens back to your original question is when we go with just the punitive model, not only are they not getting skills,
00:31:47
Speaker
to be able to move towards self-discipline. But we know from the literature that kids don't get, when we are punishment focused, kids do tend to have two, there's a lot of different outcomes, but I'll hit two quickly. One is they don't necessarily change their behavior, but they get much better at hiding it.
00:32:07
Speaker
because punishment is so unpleasant and the nervous system is programmed to to avoid what's unpleasant but basically what it just like if my kid came to me and shared with me something like hey I was at this party and such and such happened or
00:32:22
Speaker
you know, um, this happened at school and I got in trouble and I freak the hell out. If I freak out, my kid is not going to stop doing things. My kids not going to stop having experiences that are alarming in their life, whether it's them or another kid, but they're going to learn from that rep. Oh, okay. That did not feel good. I just got criticized and minimized and she freaked out and that felt so terrible. So I'm not going to do that again.
00:32:46
Speaker
So what happens is when we are punitive in nature and critical in nature and we freak out, our kids avoid anything that might lead to that outcome again. So they hide it from us. The other thing we see is that when we typically go with a punishment lens, it's typically, if we're really honest with ourselves, about power and control.
00:33:06
Speaker
And so what we're doing is we're modeling for kids is the way you make things happen, the way you want them to, is with power and control. And so this is born out in the literature that we actually see more aggressiveness, more power and control. And I will tell you this, if you are using power and control as your, you know, because I said so, or I'm going to make you do it, if we go that route at some point,
00:33:30
Speaker
And it may be not until they're teenagers, unless you're willing to call the police or physically incarcerate them, you will lose. So think about your high school and you're like, well, you're grounded. And they're like, well, I'm not staying in. You can't make me stay home. What are you going to do? You're going to really literally lock them in a room? Are you going to call the police? Like power and control eventually does not work. And we're also modeling something that we don't want them to learn.
00:33:52
Speaker
So punishment doesn't provide any skills for the future and it has all kinds of negative outcomes as well. Think a bit about it too is that if we're working with our kids instead of doing something to them and you know for me I think about a couple of things. One is you know oftentimes when I say look if your kid is dysregulated and they can't learn
00:34:12
Speaker
either you co-regular with them or you wait. You just say, you know what, everyone needs a break, let them calm down, whatever, okay? So then you come back to it. Parents will often say to me, but wait, you're giving them attention and comfort and nurturing when they've done something wrong. And I'm saying, no, I'm strategically regulating their nervous system.
00:34:29
Speaker
to make them receptive to learning so I can be an effective disciplinarian. And on top of that, I'm giving their brain a rep of going from a dysregulated nervous system into a regulated nervous system so that they can do that for themselves. The way we learn self-regulation is by having someone co-regulate with us. So I think, and then I'll say one other thing and then I'll stop and that is this.
00:34:51
Speaker
If we want our children's prefrontal cortices that allow them to have insight, empathy, to pause before action, to make sound decisions, morality is even there, the ability to regulate their emotions, regulate their body, executive function, the ability to pause and not do something impulsive, like all of these self-control pieces are prefrontal. The best way to build the prefrontal is through reps and experiences.
00:35:14
Speaker
And so when it's a discipline moment, I want to give my kid, I, instead of me having the mental load of how to figure out what do I do to my kid? Well, it's going to be effective. I often work with them and have them like I'll say to them, I know, you know, it's okay. It's not okay to, you know, lie about not turning in your homework.
00:35:33
Speaker
i know you know that's not okay so i'm curious what happened there and then they talk and they explain and you go okay that's really interesting i didn't you know i i didn't i didn't realize that that was happening or okay well even though you thought that was a good excuse it's actually still a requirement and an expectation that you turn in your homework so
00:35:52
Speaker
What do you think we should do here? What's your plan? So basically what we're doing is we're saying, and the literature is very clear, decades and decades and decades, like 70 plus years of research that show that kids do best when we have high structure, expectations, limits and boundaries, and high connection, empathy, validation, emotional responsiveness. So in that moment, I'm going to ask my kids prefrontal,
00:36:16
Speaker
to do a lot of the heavy lifting. And I'll say something like, I bet you know exactly what I'm going to say. So why don't you be the grownup and you give the lecture. Then they start saying it and they're teaching me. So they're getting more reps that way, but also it makes me feel better because I'm like, Oh, they actually have been listening to me. Or I say, how are we going to solve this problem? What are your ideas? So I'm, I'm working with them that together collaboratively, we're saying, here's a problem. How are we going to solve it together? And I think you,
00:36:41
Speaker
are part of the solution and I think your brain can get some reps in there doing it. Yeah. I love what you said. I'll stop talking. I'm like, I don't want you to stop talking because it's all gold. It's just all like, okay. There's so much evidence to show the importance of making disciples, like teaching. Like these are apprentices. I think of the apprentice model too. If you apprentice yourself to like a, you know, a luthier or apprentice to a painter, apprentice to an artist, like you're
00:37:09
Speaker
walking alongside to learn from them and how important
Parenting as Apprenticeship
00:37:13
Speaker
that is. And it's such a, for a lot of people, so mind-blowing, because again, they come from that punishment, that punitive, this is what I was done to me, so I do it to them. And often it's, I think it's mindless. I don't think it's, do what they know. And especially when you're- I fly by the seat of the pants discipline philosophy.
00:37:29
Speaker
Right, and then they get stuck and then when they're frustrated, it's easy to go to power and control and yell because it's almost like I don't know what else to do but I know that I could get my kids' attention if I yell, if I scream, if I take away this. Again, I think like you said, this is not about not having sometimes a natural consequence, sometimes that's the case, you know, sometimes you have to do something.
00:37:51
Speaker
You know, maybe you have to leave the party, right? Maybe it's best to leave and not stay because it's we got to regulate You know what? We all got to leave and so it's willing to take on that that as with your kid almost sometimes too I think is like you're doing it with them not just by themselves and now for a short break
00:38:08
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:38:25
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing into production and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buy me a coffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks. And let's get back to the show.
00:38:40
Speaker
My last question is, I'm conscious of the time, and obviously I know it's going to be kind of a paraphrase, but if you think about the importance and power of men and fathers implementing this method that discipline is about teaching, why is that so important that men and fathers get on this page of discipline equal teaching versus discipline equal punishment?
00:39:01
Speaker
I think it's so important because here's the sort of foundation of this. One of the best predictors for how well kids turn out on everything we measure them on is that they have what's called secure attachment with at least one person. This is a whole other podcast conversation that's from my book, The Power of Showing Up with Dan Siegel.
00:39:20
Speaker
But the way that we help our kids feel securely attached to us is by, we call it the four S's, helping kids feel safe and seen and soothed and secure and knowing you're going to keep showing up. One of the primary foundational pieces of that is this felt sense of safety. And it goes back to our mammal. So what is attachment? Attachment is an inborn mammal instinct to be connected and protected that allows us to have a better chance of survival. So if you're a bear cub,
00:39:49
Speaker
You see a predator, you get hurt, you hear a scary noise. You have a biological instinct to go to your attachment figure who's going to keep you alive. Okay. That's our primary attachment instinct. What this means is the idea of feeling connected and protected is foundational to our child's best outcomes and how their brains get developed, et cetera.
00:40:08
Speaker
When parents and particularly dads who take on the role of protectors are reactive and out of control, what a child's nervous system experiences is if you're out of control and angry and reactive, you're not even in control of yourself. How can you be in control of the world around me to keep me safe?
00:40:30
Speaker
So it's actually a threat to our very felt sense of safety. So I think often dads, fathers hold this really sacred responsibility. Mothers do too, but dads, it's a little bit different in terms of this idea of protection. One of the best ways we can help our kids feel safe and protected is by doing what we've just talked about, is that we are
00:40:52
Speaker
in charge of our own nervous systems. If we are reactive, we pause and we do the very brave strong thing of regulating ourselves and pausing and getting ourselves okay again before we explode.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I think as leaders, whether that's a mom or a dad, we want to be the safe harbor in the storm, the calm of the storm, the eye of the storm, instead of joining the storm. And I think if we think about discipline as teaching, as opposed to just something we have to react to angrily so that we communicate to them, that's not acceptable behavior. We're actually adding more oxygen to the fire. We're now mixing a bunch of metaphors, but the idea here is that
00:41:37
Speaker
when we have a calm, regulated competence and confidence that I am in charge here, and I'm going to say no to this behavior, but I'm still going to say yes to you and your feelings about this boundary I'm setting. The idea, Eliza Pressman says, all behaviors are not okay, but all feelings are. The way Dan Siegel and I talk about it is you can say no to a behavior, but still say yes to your child and who they are and the relationship and all this stuff.
00:42:05
Speaker
I think dads in particular have been socialized that they're not supposed to be as emotionally responsive, that they're supposed to be much more the command and demand kind of approach. And I would say that based on what we know about the nervous system, that
00:42:21
Speaker
Coming in with a calm regulated nervous system where you are focused on teaching is actually a position of strength. It's a position of intentionality and our kids need that. And I think our kids learn it's okay if parents aren't on the same page.
00:42:41
Speaker
kids actually learn which parent is better to go to for specific requests. That actually is good prefrontal, having to figure that out. But I think it's so important for dads and men to think about how one of their primary jobs is to coach the capacity to be a strong leader
00:43:01
Speaker
while being completely regulated and to have not a reactive confidence, but a regulated confidence, to be a strong leader in the world. Wow, not a reactive confidence, but a regulated confidence. Yeah. Like, I've got you, we've got this, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, and I think of all those books, movies, you know, what comes to mind, it's like Yoda, right? I just go there, I'm a Star Wars geek. Yeah.
00:43:29
Speaker
And it was just May the 4th yesterday, so when we recorded May 5th. But I think of like, when we look at these people, yeah, Yoda is a regulated presence, or Qui-Gon Jinn, he was a regulated presence. He was attuned to Anakin, that he was calm, like, and he would teach, it was about teaching, and he would challenge and direct Anakin, but he was calm and collected.
00:43:50
Speaker
He got on his level, like if you watch that, but I think a lot of men, and there's a different podcast for a different day, a lot of stuff I'm looking into is how I think a lot of men are, they're stuck in their own dysregulated state, and so they parent dysregulated. That's that kind of, they're not that calm presence. And so I think that's a great way to end the show for today, but before I let you go, where can we find you if people are looking to get your stuff? I know it's tinabryson.com, and what's your Instagram handle? People want to follow you there, what's that?
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's Tina Payne Bryson and that's T-A-Y-N-E, B-R-Y-S-O-N. And if you go back on my Instagram feed, I actually did this last year, every Monday I did a discipline mistake we all make. I did 20 of them and it actually comes right out of the No Drama Discipline book.
00:44:30
Speaker
But I did 20 discipline mistakes we make all the time. And then I talk about what we can do instead. So if you go back and you can hit all of that, there's some really good gems in there. So yeah, I'm on social media and my website. And I think what's so important is that
00:44:47
Speaker
Our children are watching. And like I said, at the very beginning of the episode, you know, the two ways they learn best is by practicing doing it themselves and by what we model and what they're watching us do. And so, you know, I've worked with lots of dads. Um, one of my favorite stories and I know we're out of time was that I asked this dad, this dad and his son would get into these massive battles. His son was five or six years old. And what would happen is the kid was really reactive. He had some sensory processing things that the parents didn't know about yet.
00:45:15
Speaker
And so he was a really, the whole family was on eggshells, kind of held hostage to his frequent long tantrums. So it was really challenging. But what would happen is the kid was in these constant reactive states because his nervous system was in reactive
00:45:29
Speaker
states because of this sensory processing challenge. But anyway, he was in these massive tantrum modes all the time. And what would happen is these reactive states can be really contagious. So dad would join him in these really reactive states and they would instead of co-regulating, it was co-escalating. So the kid would kick the dad, the dad would grab him by the arm and
00:45:47
Speaker
the kid would try to bite him and then he'd say, you have to go to your room. And he'd put him in his room, but the kid wouldn't stay in his room. So then he would hold the door shut and then the kid would destroy the room. And so it was like a massive tantrum situation. And so, um, this was a dad who believed that strict punishment and that strictness was actually what his kid needed because he was spoiled and manipulative. And so when I started gently questioning like, okay, but what have you been trying? Cause I always ask parents like, what's your theory about what's happening? And that's where I hear, well, he needs stricter discipline. He's spoiled.
00:46:17
Speaker
And I say, well, what have you been doing? And he describes what they've been doing. And I say, that sounds like really strict discipline. So it's not really working. So let's try something different. So I gave him this suggested experiment and I want to share it because it's really powerful.
Relational Discipline in Action
00:46:33
Speaker
I asked the dad, I said, the next time he's raging, having a tantrum, having big behaviors, keeping in mind that the part of the brain that lights up when we're in physical pain is also the same part of the brain that lights up when we're in emotional pain. And when your child is having a massive emotional meltdown that looks like bad disrespectful behavior, it's actually stress hormones flooding their little bodies and it's miserable for them. And when they're at their worst, that's when they most need connection and regulation.
00:46:59
Speaker
So I said to him, the next time this happens, I want you to sit in a... So I said to him, you've got an angry look on your face. You're wagging your finger at him. Your tone is aggressive. Your body posture is aggressive. And basically, you're stoking the reptile brain. You're basically saying, you're poking the reptile brain. You're basically activating fight-flight-freeze for him.
00:47:19
Speaker
And he's doing it for you and you guys are both just fight, fight, fight, fight. So I said, I want you to do the opposite. I want you to, the next time, I want you to sit below his eye level because that's going to give the opposite message of no threat. I want to give him the opposite message, no threat. I want you to sit below eye level and I want you to say something empathetic. So I want you to say only two things. One is, oh buddy, you're so angry or you're having such a hard time and I'm right here with you. So I want Jim to say the second part, I'm right here with you while you're feeling this.
00:47:49
Speaker
He was like, you want me to sit in a submissive posture to my child when he's having bad behavior and reward it? And I said, no, I want you to sit in a strategic posture to down regulate his nervous system. I love that.
00:48:01
Speaker
So he didn't like it, and I didn't think I'd ever see them again. But about two weeks later, he and his wife came back to my office, and he said, I want to admit something to you, Dr. Bryson. He said, I told my wife when we got in the car last time that you were at the waste of time and money, and you didn't know what you were talking about. And I said, OK, great. Well, I use my best therapist voice, and I thought I want to activate more fight-flight rays than I said. Did you come back to share that with me? What's our agenda today?
00:48:26
Speaker
And he said, no, I came back to apologize. He said, in a moment of desperation, my child was just raging and I was too tired to battle with him. So he said, I didn't do it exactly like you said. He said, I sat on the floor and I crossed my arms because I told him to sit in a relaxed posture to communicate safety. He said, I crossed my arms and I said, I can tell you're mad, but I'll sit here with you.
00:48:47
Speaker
And I said, okay, well good, but that's progress. And he said, but Tina, something happened. He calmed down faster than I've ever seen him calm down. He said, and something else amazing happened. And he said, I was able to stay in control of myself and calm in a way I never have before.
00:49:05
Speaker
And, and so then I started doing some psycho ed and explaining the brain is an association machine. So when we have aggressive posture and aggressive gestures and we're yelling, we're activating, we're kind of calling the, there's a call for a neural response in our brain. Anything related to these aggressive postures, please get activated and we get more mad. But if we sit below eye level and we say something empathetic, even if we feel like screaming and yelling within a couple of minutes, a different neural network gets activated because it's like anything related to sitting in a relaxed posture below someone's eye level, like that communicates no threat in our nervous systems.
00:49:35
Speaker
And so we start talking about this and he became really emotional. And he said, that felt so amazing. I was able to help my child instead of hurt him. I was able to be the kind of parent I wanted to be. And it worked like he was, it was such a game changer. And what was funny is his wife's like, yeah, but now he's driving me crazy. The minute I start raising my voice at him and I'm annoyed with him, he sits on the floor and below my eye level. And I think he's mocking me. And I'm like, actually, it will work on your significant other, by the way.
00:50:03
Speaker
But I think this is another really helpful story to say there is tremendous strength in moving from fighting and Power and control and to say I am in charge I am in control of myself so I can be in charge of you and I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna be present while you feel what you're feeling and what happens then is
00:50:27
Speaker
is our kids get reps of sitting in difficult feelings so that they learn how to be resilient when those feelings come up in the future. So I love that story because it's the story of a dad who was willing to try something different and found it really rewarding and had all kinds of brain benefits for him and his kid.
00:50:47
Speaker
I love that story too. It encapsulates everything that I think a lot of men struggle with and you paint it so well and to hear how he is coming about and practicing this. More is my heart because I remember when I've had these moments with my kids too, it's just they get it and you see it and you see the regulation.
00:51:05
Speaker
you feel it and you feel like I'm helping my kid not hurting them. I think that captured the whole thing. I'm helping my kid, I'm not hurting them because I think that dad knew that deep down, I'm hurting him. Maybe didn't say it in language but felt it because in that moment he made that connection like, oh, this is different.
00:51:21
Speaker
And I'm glad he came back and I know exactly what you're saying. When someone comes back, they're like, okay, why are you here? Like what? It's okay. So let me practice my regulated state. And we talked about how his child then has an experience of like, I always imagine like what the kids are feeling and saying, it's like the kids like when I have really big feelings that overwhelm me and I don't know how to handle it and it's awful and it's, I have these stress hormones flooding in my body and when that happens and I can't help it, I get in trouble.
00:51:48
Speaker
Versus, I have all these big feelings and I can't help it and they're flooding me and I'm having the stress response and someone's gonna show up for me and help me. And that's what we want for our kids is to have reps relationally with us that let them know, at your worst, I will show up. At your worst, I will still love you.
00:52:07
Speaker
all behaviors are not okay, but you will never lose my love. And so relationally, our kids are getting reps every time we have discipline moments as well. And if we are critical, angry, dismissing, minimizing, et cetera, it's going to not feel good and they're going to come to us less.
00:52:25
Speaker
And that I will tell you is really important as our kids get older and move into adolescence. We want them to know I can go tell my parent anything and at my worst, they're still going to love me and show up for me. And we're going to figure this out together. We're on the same team.
00:52:38
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And as a side note, and we're gonna end here, is that that fights against the negative shame messages that kids struggle with, right? Because go back to the kid who gets put in the room, right? I'm bad, I'm broken, I'm not enough, right? That they start to make, have to make sense of the world as to why is this happening? And my parents are, they hate me, right? It's because of this rather than, no, I'm loved at my worst. I'm, you know, they're here with me.
00:53:03
Speaker
Instead of when I'm at my worst, people leave me. People don't want to be with me. I was with a mom one time who said to her upset child, we are happy in this family. And if you can't be happy, that's fine, but you need to go into your room. And when you're happy, you can come back out. And I was like, oh.
00:53:22
Speaker
That's the exact opposite message. I want that child to hear. I want that kid to know, we love you no matter what. And if you're having a hard time with your behavior, let's figure that out and you might need to spend a little bit of time calming down or whatever it is. But I think to say at your worst, I will show up for you and that otherwise, yeah. We all want that. We all want to know that.
00:53:48
Speaker
Every person comes to my office, dad, mom, whoever. At the core, the deepest, darkest part of us, our fear is that we're going to be rejected and left alone. We all want to belong. We all want to be connected. We all want to be accepted.
00:54:02
Speaker
And so like, that's the key is as a parent, we are giving that gift, that message over and over and over again that no matter what I'm here, yes, we got a correct behaviors, of course, but the core of it is now I'm here with you. Oh, we can keep, honestly, we keep talking and I would love to keep talking, but I know I'm mindful of your time and I'm very, very thankful we're being on. Please tune in, follow Dr. Tina Bryson's work. If you don't already, I push your stuff all the time and Dan Siegel's work. It's amazing stuff. It's rooted in science. It's effective.
00:54:31
Speaker
It does. It takes time. It's not always quick. Our brains need reps for it too. Right. It takes time. We need a rep, but it's one of the, as far as best outcomes, this is what we do. So thank you so much and have an excellent, excellent day. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.