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SUMMER ROAD TRIP - Connecticut & Delaware
126 Plays3 years ago
Continuing through the USA on our Summer Road trip we are stopping through Connecticut & Delaware and ending up in a long debate over our opinions! Surprise Surprise
Delaware (Billy Bailey) 3:50 - 40:38
Connecticut (Helle Craft) 40:39 - 1:27
The rest is us going down a rabbit-hole of of the death penalty.
As always we would love to hear from you twistedtalestruecrime@gmail.com
Instagram (@twistedtales_pod) or Facebook (TwistedTales True Crime).
Thanks for spending your time with us and have a fantastic summer!
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Transcript
Introduction and Road Trip Adventures
00:00:03
Speaker
Good afternoon, evening, morning, time of day you're at. Welcome to Cliset Tales and I'm Faith. I'm Lisa. And we're glad you decided to join us again. Absolutely. We are continuing on our road trip to the United States, which is a lot more intensive than I thought it was going to be, but that's OK. Yeah. No, some of the research has been a little bit to nothing. Yeah. Some of these states, you think that Lisa states. Yeah, my states kind of suck.
00:00:32
Speaker
My states don't. OK, no, here's the deal. I
Unexpected Delaware Crimes
00:00:36
Speaker
like the states that I get, but I don't want to be too redundant in the things that I talk about. And I feel like some of the like with last week's the girl killing her mom and all that stuff, like I don't want to do another story like that. But apparently that happens a lot. And there's a lot of yeah.
00:00:56
Speaker
Do you know how many people have been drugged by a car? A lot. Apparently. Yeah. I didn't think that was a thing. OK, so when I went on to my Delaware thing and I'm like looking around, the majority of what I found is people like killing their parents for their life insurance. And I'm sitting here like. Get a job, bro. Yeah. Sorry, I'm sorry. All
Humor, Exhaustion, and 90s Reflections
00:01:17
Speaker
right. All right. OK. Rock, paper, scissors for who goes first. Oh, fine.
00:01:21
Speaker
One, two, three, shoot. Ha! One, two, three, shoot. Ha! You lost. Alright, first of all, I just want to bring up the fact that, like, I'm an adult, right? And so I know rock, paper, and scissor, but here's Faith. I have to say them out loud to myself. So that's how you play the game, you rock, paper, scissor, shoot. No, you, you, one, two, three, and you shoot. No.
00:01:46
Speaker
It's Saturday afternoon. We've both been working at at, you know, physical labor at our dirty, dirty houses all week. So all day, all day, all night. It doesn't matter. Like all week and then chasing kids, man. Dude, I'm wasted. Wasted like like I'm tired. OK, there you go. Because when people when you say wasted, people think you're like, I do not. And I'm driving home today, so.
00:02:14
Speaker
Anyway, quit stalling. No, fine. I'm not stalling. I'm just. All right. So I'm going to give a little blurb before we get started
The Story of Billy Bailey
00:02:24
Speaker
on this. All right. So the story that I found because I had Delaware this week. Apparently, there are a lot of places that are named Delaware. They're not in the state. They're not actually the state of Delaware. That's correct.
00:02:41
Speaker
And then I tripped across this this one story. And it's really not even like this huge, elaborate, like crazy story. But the way it ended was very interesting to me. Only because I had no idea. And I'm hoping that everybody else also didn't really have any idea because we grew up in the 90s, right? I don't want to talk about when I grew up.
00:03:09
Speaker
All right, just for the record, for the record, we all pretty much grew up in the 90s, right? Yeah. Late 90s. Yeah. Well, this was late 90s. It's okay. You can confess. But if I grew up in the late 90s, oh, I'm thinking born again. I've already aged myself. Literally, she's the worst. It's old as dirt. That's why she has to say rock, paper, and scissor instead of saying one, two, three. That's not how you play the game. You're a game.
00:03:38
Speaker
Delaware, back to Delaware. Back to Delaware. Fine. All right. So. Getting our notes. I did Billy Billy. He was born in January. I'm sorry. Let me. She's got her notes. She gave me a cue. She's got her notes like over down on the floor. So she's not even like positioned towards the mic. I do my best. Resume still. There you go. At gmail.com. At this point, I don't really blame her.
00:04:09
Speaker
I'm special in a good way. Oh, geez. OK. Billy Bailey, Billy Bailey, Billy Bailey was born January 1947. The actual day could not find. Weird. Yeah. All right. So Billy was one of 23 kids in his family, like what? Yeah.
00:04:37
Speaker
That's a lot. That's a lot of when did she start having kids when she was 10? Well, I mean, at this point, she didn't write birthright. So at the lack of information, I can assume I can assume she pulled them all out of her uterus, but I don't really know. Literally, you can barely 23. That's a classroom.
00:05:04
Speaker
They could have a hockey team. So again, I have no idea if any of these kids were adopted. I have looked so much for information about all of this. But again, it was the end result that was talked about the most. OK, so I'm going to keep reading. According to what I found on the Internet, which was not a whole lot, Mr. Billy,
00:05:30
Speaker
Suffered an insane amount of abuse. Okay, his mom passed when he was less than a year and Yeah, as he started growing up he became kind of a thug He used to beat the crap out of people. He robbed people and Legitimately didn't care like just whatever is what it is. Yeah nice guy genuinely so
00:06:00
Speaker
As for his early life, that's pretty much all that I could find. All right. So we're going to skip forward, not in our way back machine. We're going to have to find another word here because our fast forward machine fast. Yeah, but that's not as cool as the way back machine. I mean, I can't I'm not going to cite who I heard it from because I forget, but I didn't come up with no. Yeah, I heard
Media Sensationalism and Execution Methods
00:06:26
Speaker
it. I liked it. So I stole it.
00:06:28
Speaker
There you go. So cited for somebody at some point somewhere on the Internet, on the Internet. So we're going to jump forward into history. In 1979, after being convicted of forgery, Billy was taken to the plumber house with the plumber house. Well, I'm so glad you asked. I'm going to pull it up on my phone. I told you there's a lot of jump in here. All right. Because there are so many different versions of garbage. OK.
00:06:58
Speaker
because I had to just move around because, like, again, the end result was pretty much all that anybody ever cared about. All right. So Plummer House, which is still in existence today. OK, I could be angry that it's in existence. No, no. PCCC is a multi.
00:07:21
Speaker
multifaceted, multifaceted facility that currently manages and supervise male and female offenders who participate in traditional work release and a road to recovery. So basically like a halfway house. Yeah, kind of, but not just for people that are on drugs or alcohol or whatever. No, like when you get out of prison and you have to go to a halfway house. Exactly. But instead of sending this man to prison, they just send him here.
00:07:47
Speaker
OK. All right. So let's see. Hold on. They operate in community work projects that provide provide services to local communities, including cleanup, snow removal, small repairs and other supervised work. Let's see, the work release provides a structural program that allows
00:08:14
Speaker
gradual transition from being in prison to a full life experience. OK, so like living outside of jail. OK. All right. So. That is where my friend Billy went. And Billy didn't like it.
00:08:29
Speaker
So, of course you didn't like it. Well, nobody likes going into anything that tells you what to do. Not only that, they're making you do physical labor. Think about it. Trash pickup, snow removal, handyman, like that's all physical labor. And if he's forging stuff, obviously he's kind of lazy. Well, I couldn't find anything really at all about what his time there looked like. OK. I do know.
00:08:57
Speaker
that at some point, Mr. Bill escaped. Well, I mean, it's not a prison, so I'm guessing it's not hard to escape. No, I would not think so either. But he took off and he went and found one of his foster sisters. So now things are starting to glue together a little bit because they're like 23 kids. What?
00:09:25
Speaker
Right. So foster sisters, like one of the one of his actual sisters are someone he met in foster care. I'm it's a foster. So I can only assume that his mom died when she was one. Twenty three kids ain't no relative that nice. Yeah. Yeah. Those kids are probably going to get split up and put in foster care in a nutshell. Yeah. OK. So, uh, yeah, he showed up at his sisters. He told his sister he's not ever going back to the plumber house. And then at some point,
00:09:55
Speaker
again, because I can't find dates for anything. So at some point, unfortunately, is the only phrase that I can find. All right. Billy and his foster husband or her his foster sister's husband. Wow. I'm trying, guys. All right. They took off. Charles, which was the sister's husband. Yeah. OK. Drove.
00:10:20
Speaker
They they drove around for a little bit. Billy asked him to stop at a liquor store. He ran into the liquor store and when he came out, he had a pistol in one hand and a bottle of liquor in the other. So he robbed the joint. Feel like that's pretty safe to say, pretty safe to say. You're going to steal is one bottle of liquor. I'm going to keep going because I feel like
00:10:48
Speaker
At some point, no, no, I'm not even going to. I'm not going to give that either. We're just going to have to keep listening. All right. So we got back into the car after he robbed the liquor store and he asked. His brother to take him to Lamberton Corner.
00:11:09
Speaker
I don't know where that is, but I'm assuming it's in Delaware. It's in Delaware. Yes. But Lambertson Corner is also the last name of the people that live there. But they had money. Well, Billy got out of the car and trespassed into a farm belonging to Gilbert Lambertson. Lambertson, sorry, guys, who was 80 years old. Oh. And Clara Lambertson, who is 73.
00:11:39
Speaker
Billy then decides he's going to shoot Gilbert two times in the chest with a pistol. Why? Well, Billy saw no reason to live anymore. OK. OK. So why? That's literally all it said. He just didn't care anymore. Why kill other people if you don't want to live anymore? I don't know. Misery loves company, I guess.
00:12:05
Speaker
But like I literally faith I went through the Internet and I'm trying to figure out any kind of logical explanation for any of this. And there was none. There was none. So he just killed an old man. Yeah. And an old lady. All right. I'm going to keep going, though, because I'm going to read what actually happened to these two individuals. OK. So again, he shot Billy in the chat. No, Billy shot Gilbert in the chest two times with his pistol.
00:12:34
Speaker
And then once in the head with Gilbert's own shotgun. It's a bit excessive. Then he shot Clara one time in the shoulder with his pistol, one time in her stomach and one time in her neck with the shotgun. Jeez. Yeah. Both the Lamberts died. You think? And then he arranged their bodies in chairs and then left. Propped him at the dinner table type of deal. Like you know how we talk about all these serial killers who are like
00:13:03
Speaker
You know, oh, I'm going to position somebody this way with with that. And then they're going to have a handkerchief. It could have been something like that. Maybe. But I literally think this guy was just done living. Like, I'm not kidding you. When I tell you, I researched all of it. Why? What?
00:13:23
Speaker
How, when, where, OK? There is no information about Billie Billie. And guys, I'm just going to go ahead and say, if you know more than what I can possibly say right now, because I looked. Wikipedia was the most information that I got, aside from a Washington Post story, which I'm going to get to here in a minute. OK. OK.
00:13:48
Speaker
so weird because now it is weird. Now someone like sneezes and it's all over social media. Then this guy murders two people for no reason. Yeah. And you can find like not a blurb. But here's the thing. You can find a story about a crime, right? Yeah. But unless it's a severe crime, like most people are just going to kind of wipe it off like it never really happened. Yeah. Like a sensationalized crime. Exactly.
00:14:15
Speaker
All right. Well, either way, that's fine. It's just the crimes happen all over the country constantly. And doing this podcast is like odd because like we're literally going from state to state trying to find a crime that's just odd. Right. Yeah. But when you go through the list of the crimes that's happened,
00:14:40
Speaker
It's it's parasite, which from what I researched, which was my last week episode, right, was basically a family member killing a family member. Yeah. Right. Robbery murder. Insurance fraud, murder. Like that's the like there's no small category to like fit it into.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah. OK. Well, I just like a one off weird. Yeah. People, everybody always wants to hear like the major story. Right. But like some of the stories in some of these in these counties or some of these states literally is people just running around killing. Right. And it's all good about life. Well, yeah. But I'm just saying, guys, like. There's.
00:15:31
Speaker
There's a lot of criminal activity that happens a lot, okay? And I'm not gonna discard some of the crimes that happen, but simply we're just trying to do like, God, it sounds so bad to say the interesting ones. Because they're all, they're all interesting. But, you know, a drive-by is something that's so
00:15:56
Speaker
normalized, I guess. Yeah. Oh, like you, you know, you flip on the news and it's like, oh, seven people died in a drive by. Right. But the thing is, is they don't tell like background or anything. Like it's just the Israel keys or Ted Bundy types that you get are unfortunately, I'm going to say it, but unfortunately, if a pretty little white girl
00:16:18
Speaker
is murdered. Like they're going to do a whole synopsis on backstories of both the perpetrator and the victim and all this stuff. But any kind of like minority are quote unquote, like gang violence drive bys, like
00:16:35
Speaker
Just I hate to say it, but like run of the mill crimes. Yeah. And they don't. They don't. They don't do anything. But that's a crappy way to say it's like run of the mill. And I said it's a crappy way to say it, but that's how it's. But if you think about it, though, when we turn the news on, we're not hearing about the run of the mill crimes. We're hearing about like, oh, gosh, what was the most recent one? And it was local, not local. It was Southern. It was the girl. No, no, no, no.
00:17:04
Speaker
Hold on. Shopping cart killer. You remember that? Not really. Where he was killing hookers and leaving them in a shopping cart like a buggy for people in other states. We heard about that a lot. Yeah. But do we hear about like anything that happened downtown last week? No. Because it's not sensationalized.
00:17:27
Speaker
If it's got if they can add a shop, if they can add a nice little title like the shopping cart murder. Right. Then, yeah, sure. It's going to sell newspapers or, you know, it's going to people are going to watch the news for that. People aren't going to watch the news for, you know, an impoverished. Minority who gets gunned down in the street for no reason besides it's a gang initiation. Yeah, but aside from it, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's what they all say. Right. Yeah. All right. So.
00:17:57
Speaker
everyone wondering at this point why I'm talking about this case, because it was not a social media or well, no social media back then. Yeah. And the way back machine, there was no social media, but it was not a a public sized case. Right. Right. All right. So I'm going to keep going. You go ahead. All right.
Discussing Execution History
00:18:19
Speaker
So. Both the Lamberts died. Lambertson's sorry.
00:18:25
Speaker
He arranged their bodies, left them in chairs, and then took off running. He was spotted by the police, and even tried to shoot at the helicopter that was chasing him. Because that's going to reach it up. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, we're really intelligent. We're more criminals, right? So eventually, he was captured, taken into custody. OK. OK. In 1980. I wasn't born yet. Woo hoo.
00:18:52
Speaker
Me either. Yeah, we're not that old. You know, you ain't lying. Anyways, 1980 believes found guilty. The jury said that his crimes were outrageously vile, horrible and inhumane. OK, agree. So they recommended. A death sentence that he was to be hanged by the neck until dead.
00:19:23
Speaker
So weird that they were doing hangings in the 1980s, OK? Like, that's weird to me. Like, I would have thought that it would be like the electric chair at that point. Like hanging is just so I don't know. I think like Wobble of West for hanging. I think about like pirates. Yeah. Pirates of the Caribbean. Yeah. Yeah. Like that kind of stuff. Yeah. Where that was actually like accepted. Hanging. Right. Yeah.
00:19:47
Speaker
All right, so I'm going to pop my stuff up here real quick, if you want to just blurb to them for a minute. Blur, blur, blur. Yeah, just spew the garbage that always comes out of your mouth. You got to tell me before I was supposed to just sit here. Well, no, I'm just trying to. I thought you'd take a hair. Sorry. I just had to pull this up again. Resumes. It's what it tells true crime. It's email dot com. Yeah.
00:20:12
Speaker
Yeah, anybody, anybody, anybody that can like read at this point is ideal. Oh, I'm sorry, guys, I have ADHD. I was diagnosed as a child. I get amused by like anything anyways. All right. So I am going to read off a story written by a Carl Vick
00:20:43
Speaker
In January, 26th, 1996 in the Washington Post, Washington Post decided they go. So here is what Karl wrote. Convicted murderer. Billy Billy was hanged today. Dropped silently from an outdoor gallo.
00:21:06
Speaker
1996. I knew that would get you. Did you know in 1996 they were still hanging people? No. And the title of the article is what, an execution the old way? Yeah, an execution the old way. 1996. I feel like that was only 10 years ago. That wasn't but I know. I know. I know. But like even in the 1990s though, like could you ever imagine? No, I would not. I wouldn't have even thought of the electric chair.
00:21:35
Speaker
And in the 90s, lethal injection at that point. Yeah, it is. Oh, my gosh, that's insane. Sorry. All right. I'm sorry. So outdoor in the gallows at the state penitentiary. Here in the most violent or violent legal execution, Delaware is performed in the half century. Bailey, who shotgunned an elderly farm couple to death
00:22:03
Speaker
With provocation in 1979, was already standing on the 15 foot wooden platform. When witnesses entered the compound. In the distant corner of Delaware's correctional center at midnight, the new swung by a side in a bitterly cold. I like this guy's really like going bad for Bailey. Well, I'm going to keep reading Bailey, 49.
00:22:33
Speaker
Face forward with an expression flanked. Well, sorry, I'm sorry. He was without expression. He was flanked by guards wearing black jumpsuits, black hoods held in place by baseball caps. One face forward holding Bailey's left arm. The other kept his back to the witness and held the prisoner's shoulder. Warden Robert Snyder standing further to the right
00:23:04
Speaker
At first did not hear Bailey's reply when when they condemned the man and was asked if he had any last words. The prisoner said no. The guards led. The squat, 200 pound man to the trap door. Placed a strap around his ankles. And pulled a black hood over his head and upper chest.
00:23:30
Speaker
The noose was fastened over the hood and tightened beneath Bailey's chin. Several times Snyder felt the hood to be certain that the top of the hangman's knot lay beneath Bailey's left ear. The placement, old army regulations specified to
Hella's Mysterious Disappearance
00:23:53
Speaker
ensure that the straightening of the rope has the best chance of bringing a quick death
00:24:00
Speaker
by severing the spinal cord. Finally, the warden stepped back, pulled the gray wooden lever with both hands, and the trap door opened. Five feet of manila rope followed Bailey through the hole and snapped taut at 10 feet above the sodden ground. Bailey's body spun counterclockwise six times, then rotated
00:24:30
Speaker
once in the opposite direction and perhaps 20 seconds before Snyder released the canvas tar to conceal the body. So basically. They're not going to let everybody watch him. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, it's not a peaceful way to go. No. So, yeah, he released the canvas. Witnesses said they found themselves thinking of a rag doll, and that's pretty much what he looked like. Just a doll.
00:25:00
Speaker
hanging from. The news in a nutshell, OK, I got real quiet there, guys, because I was looking at Faith while I was talking and she's kind of looking at me like seriously. 1996, 96, once leave of Bailey's denim prison jacket flapped in the wind. His dangling feet wore new white tennis shoes. 11 minutes later, a voice behind the trap announced
00:25:29
Speaker
that the official time of death was 12, 15 a.m. So this all started at midnight, basically, 15 minutes. A correction department spokesman later declared the execution had occurred without complication. An independent trauma surgeon said.
00:25:52
Speaker
11 minutes. Sorry, guys, there's bugs flying in my face. An independent surgeon said 11 minutes was not an unusual time. To wait for a pulse to stop after the spinal cord has been ruptured. Like you want a reaction for me, but I'm still stuck on 1996. I know. And so that's the talking point. Delaware. Was the last state in America. To hang someone.
00:26:21
Speaker
in 1990, that's like 26 years ago. Yeah, I know. And then we sit here and we're like, what the, what? Guys, I know. Okay. Now here's, here's the catch though. That's like Robin Hood time. Here's the catch. He wanted to die by his original sentence. Okay. He could have had the lethal injection. Okay. But he didn't want that. He wanted his original sentence. When was he originally sentenced in 80? 79. Okay. So that,
00:26:51
Speaker
It's still weird to me that they would sentence by death in 79, but that was before my time. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think being sentenced to death at that time, like anywhere within the 70s, even early 80s, you're talking about a lot of murders. OK, like how to 70s, 80s, all that year, you're looking at Dahmer, Bundy, Night Stalker.
00:27:20
Speaker
But that's what I'm saying. Billy Bailey chose that for himself. That's weird. Why would you want that? I don't because you're psycho. You can't talk, can you? I kind of can. Because he's a psychopath. Like, I mean, I'm just saying I had no idea in America. Because when I ran across the story, I'm like, this is such a I'm sorry, guys, and I'm going to say it.
00:27:50
Speaker
But it's such a mediocre story, right? Like it's not it's not Nightstalker. It's not this crazy, ambitious, like murder that went down. This is a guy who killed two people. And was hung in 1996. That it's insane. Ninety six.
00:28:12
Speaker
That's all that's going through my head is 1996. And I'm going to tell you what, I can't tell you how many times I went back through my data to make sure it wasn't like 18. Right? Because that would make more sense. It would make total sense. And that is so crazy.
00:28:28
Speaker
I would not have thought we would have hung someone in 1996. In any of the 90s, any of the 80s, any of the 70s. I've really, really thought. Like the 30s or 30s, maybe. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like that's that's like some old school garbage right there. That's the Wob Wob West. Yeah.
00:28:48
Speaker
19, I knew it would get you. I knew it would get you. Everyone. Hello. I had no idea. OK. And now, guys, what I'm telling you, 95, 96, like we were old enough to know. I mean, I wouldn't have. I mean, I wouldn't have watched the news then, but well, no kid does. But I'm just saying like. I was 12. Yeah, 12, 12, 13 ish, right?
00:29:14
Speaker
But Noah, you're right. At that age, we don't watch the news, but like I feel like exactly. I guarantee if I call my mom right now, I'm like, hey, did you know someone hung to death as by doing it right now? Call somebody that's a way of like, not like.
00:29:33
Speaker
It's not like public lynching, like state mandated hanging. Yeah. Well, again, lethal injection, right, was a thing at that point. Yeah. So not even the electric chair. Yeah. So why don't you call an adult that was available at that time? And like, let's just see what they say. Because my mom's at Dollywood. All right. So I'm going to call my mom.
00:30:02
Speaker
And we're going to see real quick if she's ever heard anything about it. So 1996, 96. Hey, mom, I'm sorry, I got you on the podcast. I got a question for you. OK. All right. So did you know in 1996? That there was a man hung in Delaware by crimes by the state.
00:30:31
Speaker
Execution style. Okay. No, I had no idea. Yeah, see? Seriously? So it wasn't even publicized that he was hung. If it was publicized, you'd be able to find out more stuff. In 96, where were you? Oh, I don't know. Working. No, I mean like year-wise, like how old were you? Honey, I don't know. I'm going to be 66, so we can't fail.
00:31:00
Speaker
OK, so well, Frankie was 16 then. Yeah, we're here. Yeah, we were in Tennessee. So Delaware's what? 10 hours away, 11, 12. That's geography. I don't know that. About 10 hours away. And that was not national news in 96. Was it? She said no, she doesn't know. That's crazy. OK. And that would have been big news because nobody as of like I think.
00:31:30
Speaker
Probably the early 60s, maybe. Nobody got hung anymore. Oh, so early 60s. She said 60s. We were thinking we were thinking like 20s and 30s. Like back in the back, back in the colonial days is my thought. Yeah. No, it was either the 50s or the 60s. They stopped hanging people. Wow. OK. Well, mom, you're the best. Thank you so much. OK. All right. Love you. Bye.
00:32:00
Speaker
So that was like a 50s or 60s. That's what that was like the way they executed people in the 60s. You're in peace and love in the hippie days. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess if everyone's high, it doesn't really matter how far you fall. That was messed up. I'm sorry, guys. I was amazed. Yeah, no. I'm just saying like, guys, OK, come on. This is 2022.
00:32:30
Speaker
OK, so when we look back on history and we look back on time, right, most people are like hanging. That's such a. Medieval type of thing, right? And apparently it wasn't. Like, and there were time to frame a team like, yeah, way back. Yeah. Anybody that doesn't know what she just said, guillotine.
00:32:56
Speaker
They drop a friggin razor blade and cut your head off. Bigger than a razor blade, but tomato, tomato, I guess. I hate you. But what I'm saying is, is like hanging in 1996 is so odd. If they did that kind of thing, it would be like, I mean, you just think that there would have been something.
00:33:22
Speaker
No, they did something like that now or even no, not even did it attempted to do it now. It would be some kind of human rights like no, no, no, no. I mean, the death penalty isn't even accepted anymore. And at that point in time, Delaware was doing away with the death penalty. And they decided to go out with a hanging. That's what he asked for. That's insane.
00:33:51
Speaker
1996. I told you it'd be weird. And that doesn't matter that I couldn't find any information about this guy and just know about his crimes. Right. And then his 1996. Wow. Also. He was the last person in the United States to be hung first crimes.
00:34:14
Speaker
That's just weird. 96. When you started reading that article, I was looking over your shoulder because you had a problem with that one word. Multifaceted. And I looked at the date of the article and it all dawned on me like that guy's writing about something he was there for in 1996. 1996.
00:34:33
Speaker
And the way he even described it, it was almost like this peaceful like journey into the unknown. Right. It was very like on a cold. Yeah. And then he's like and then he dropped 10 feet down to the earth. Like three twists to the left, two twists to the right. Six in the six to his counterclockwise one twist the other way. Yeah. That's weird. It's messed with my brain. I know.
00:35:03
Speaker
Because it's like, I felt like we were more civilized than that at this point, right? But I guess, you know, 2022 is a lot different than 96. Because I keep thinking, well, no, I'm sitting here thinking like, I realize that we're older than we want to be.
00:35:21
Speaker
No, no, no, it sucks, man, because when we look back into the 90s, we're like, oh, Tupac, Dre, all this stuff is going on. And then apparently... Scrunchies. Yeah, scrunchies. And then some dude hung in 96 and nobody... How was that not national news? How did my mom and dad not know about that? I would like to know if any of the people that listened to us actually knew about
00:35:50
Speaker
that like if anyone knew that that happened that would be amazing not because they listened to it on a podcast but because they remember that was what was going on in Delaware in 1996 was there any media like was there any outcry was there any anything
00:36:08
Speaker
Besides, like you heard it on a podcast or you listen to a different episode of something. Like, does anybody remember it? Because they were alive during that time and they remembered hearing about it. Even if you lived in Delaware, like I'd just be interested to know. Did anybody know? Did it? Yeah. Yeah. My brain is befuddled. I know. I told you that the story itself wasn't great, but the ending was what we were going to have a conversation about.
00:36:36
Speaker
Right. Because like in 1996, the only thing I can think about is like, you know, roller skating. Right. Yeah. Roller rink. Yeah. Those are those are big. Then I remember those when roller blades came out. I know. That's what I'm saying. Like, but I don't ever remember. Well, we wouldn't. I know we would have been young, but even my mom. Right. And I'm sure we could probably call another couple hundred adults who would be like, unless they were from the area.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to know wouldn't know her knew about it naturally. That's befuddled me. I need to know if anyone knew about it naturally. Yeah. So, guys, I'm sorry, but I'm going to pitch it like 24. I want to know if you knew about it naturally. Well, I want to know just based that solely out of curiosity, if it was even publicized in Delaware. So if you're in Delaware, right. And you happen upon our show. All right. Where do we need to go?
00:37:34
Speaker
for them to ask us. Yeah. Throw it. Throw us a line. Facebook. Twisted Tales. One word. True Crime. You can go on Instagram. Twisted Tales underscore pod. You can email us at Twisted Tales true crime at Gmail dot com, where we like to get where I would like to get a resume or two. You can't tell me it wasn't a good story. It was a good story. But that is.
00:38:00
Speaker
I need to know if anyone knew about it naturally. Like, that's my. But there were people there. There were people there that witnessed him hang. OK. And. I can't get past. 1996. OK, so now we're living in 2022. We have no Delaware listeners right now. I just looked it up. Dammit. Face.
00:38:29
Speaker
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were just saying words. Well, if you know anybody from Delaware in that time period, just if you know anybody from Delaware, that's not like a baby. And by baby, I mean 20 or under.
00:38:44
Speaker
Tell them, send them a link from Spotify to this episode. Ask them to listen to it. I'll put the timestamps below for the Delaware episode and get them to respond and then they can share. I would like some Delaware people to start listening because I need to know if anyone knew about natural. I would agree. Because when I saw like the only reason I did this story was simply because of the end result.
00:39:11
Speaker
That is because I had absolutely no stinking clue. That somebody was hung as early as and don't blame me for being. In 80s, baby, OK, as early as 1996. Yeah, I mean, people are rarely put to death now. Yeah. And when they're put to death, they get a tiny shot. And then die, right? I mean,
00:39:41
Speaker
This guy died dropping, okay? They severed his spinal cord. And then they waited 11 minutes before pronouncing him dead. Because his pulse stopped. 1996. Yeah. It's broken my brain. I know. I know. And it's such a random story.
00:40:12
Speaker
And that's the only reason I did this story. There could have been another one. I could have done anything about like, oh, some guy robbed some dude and they, you know, whatever in 1996. That's what freaked me out. It freaked me out. Ninety six. All right. Let's take a minute to pause. Yep. Get my brain together and then do your story at Connecticut. Oh, yeah. All right. So we are now going to go to Connecticut.
00:40:41
Speaker
and I have got a story for you that it's not funny at all, but no. I think it's not funny in the sense that... You're not gonna... It's morbid, but at the same time, you know you're gonna get me. Yeah, and you're gonna think that you know where this is going, but trust me.
00:41:03
Speaker
you do not know where this is going. So, as usual, I'm going in the way back machine, and I am going to tell you a story, and we're gonna start all the way at the beginning. So, Hela Lorik-Nelson was born July 7th, 1947. Hela? Hela. Like Hela good time? Yeah, Hela. Hela, all right. I love her name, Hela. So, she was born in a small village north of Denmark, which I cannot pronounce, so I did not even
00:41:32
Speaker
right like I had the city written down and I was like, not today, but a small village north of Denmark. She was described as a vibrant, outgoing child who enjoyed school and was said to make friends very quickly as her personality was just sparkling and contained. She was one of those kids that just enjoyed attending class and learning. And what they should have said is she was frickin smart.
00:41:59
Speaker
By her early teens, she could speak fluently both French and English and was able to understand and carry on conversations in German, Norwegian and Sweden. OK, so was she like just American or? No, she was born in Denmark. Small town outside of Denmark. Oh, OK, I'm sorry. So that was like the whole. All right. So she she had her native language and then all the other. OK, I'm sorry. My bad.
00:42:29
Speaker
Alright, so she was beautiful, she had a great personality, and she was freaking smart. So she was an only kid, but why have another one when you got that one? Right.
00:42:45
Speaker
And she worked as an au pair in France. By her early 20s, she landed a job as a stewardess with Capitol Airways. And she flew to Africa and Brussels and Frankfurt. And she was able to see the world and she loved her job. So not only was she smart, but she literally was absolutely beautiful. She had high cheekbones, long blonde hair, trim figure, and a warm, engaging smile that turned the head of men in any room she entered. That was literally like written about her. Someone said those things.
00:43:14
Speaker
She loved being a flight attendant and traveling, so when she heard Pan Am Airways was looking for a new stewardess in Copenhagen, she and 20 other hopefuls applied for the job. Now Pan Am was huge. I looked it up because I thought I remembered. They did a TV, like a very short TV series, but Christina Ricci and Margo Roberts was in it. Pan Am paved the way for a lot. They were the airway to be a part of back in the day.
00:43:45
Speaker
So she and 200 other people applied for this job, but due to her beauty and personality, she, along with eight others were selected to go to Miami and continue training for the Pan Am job. So this is how she ended up in the United States. So while staying in Miami, she stayed in this hotel.
00:44:04
Speaker
But the way it was described was it wasn't like a hotel that you and I would go stay in. Basically, this was a hotel for flight people. People that were having layovers, people that had a few days in between flights, people that were there before flying back to wherever they came from, stewardess pilots. It was basically this huge condo hotel just for
00:44:29
Speaker
All these all these airlines employees. Yeah, like the flying people. But it was also described very much like a club. OK. Like they're having parties. People are in and out of everybody's rooms. Like it was a it was a great time. So this is where she stayed. And it was here in 1969. She met a pilot named Richard Kraft.
00:44:55
Speaker
Richard was a young pilot who definitely did not fit the mold of the pilot. He was described as a five foot eight somewhat scruffy looking guy with longer unkempt brown hair, slightly rough around the edges and women loved him. He was said to never be without a woman and dated almost exclusively stewardesses, which I think there would be some overlap and like high drama, but apparently that was just the lifestyle.
00:45:24
Speaker
Nothing was said about it. Well, I mean, it's a pilot. They make figures, you know, like they make some good dang money. Yeah. Yeah. So when how I met Richard, he made every time I say her name because I'm just thinking he made hella money again. Oh, God.
00:45:44
Speaker
So Richard was actually already engaged as someone else when they met, but neither of them seemed to mind and they continue to see each other off and on for the next few years. It was said by mutual friends that they frequently fought at times in public loudly, but always ended up wrapped back up in each other's arms. Um, I have two thoughts on that. He was engaged. Yeah. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Agreed.
00:46:11
Speaker
You're and you're the other woman. So how do you ever expect him to be faithful? Like that's always got to be in the back of your mind is. And if if you're like it just seems like like a really intense, passionate affair, like they're either fighting or they're making out type of deal. Yeah. The way it was described. So.
00:46:28
Speaker
While go ahead, where are you going to say? No, don't go. So Hellas friends encouraged her to move on from the somewhat toxic relationship. She was gorgeous and literally could get any guy she wanted. Like everybody loved her. Right. But she singled out the one guy that's already taken. Yeah. Who's you know. And they were openly hostile to Richard. Like did not accept him. Like it was basically the boyfriend that all the friends hated and they let him know they hated him.
00:46:58
Speaker
Oh, he was a Brian. I don't know who Brian is, but sure. Remember the Dayton Cook series? Oh, yeah. I thought like I was trying to know what I knew named Brian. Sorry, guys. Just look it up. In 1975, Hela became pregnant and in November, she and Richard were married in New Hampshire. So Helen Richard with their new child settled down in Newton, Connecticut.
00:47:24
Speaker
Two more children. Yep. However, they both love their work and travel. So they hired a 19 year old au pair to help take care of their children. And her name was Don Maria Thomas. OK, so anybody that doesn't know what an au pair is, it's a nanny.
00:47:41
Speaker
Somebody that takes care of your kids so you don't have to. It's a living nanny. She that's what she did. Hella did. So she they got this 19 year old girl to move in help with their three kids because if she's a stewardess and he's a pilot, they're both going to be gone like whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So from all appearances, they had a perfect life together. They made over $125,000 a year.
00:48:04
Speaker
and that was in the early 80s. I went to inflation calculator. How much do you think it is today? $125,000. $438,575. I wouldn't even close. That's how much it would be today. So they made bank.
00:48:26
Speaker
However, behind closed doors, as usual, their lives were not, quote unquote, Facebook perfect. Right. Even with her first pregnancy, Richard, like during the time she was first pregnant, Richard would just take off. And Hela told her friends that he just literally pack a bag and leave for several days. And then he'd return with no explanation.
00:48:51
Speaker
She didn't know if he was at work. She didn't know if he was traveling like literally. He wouldn't even say anything. He just packed a bag and leave and then come back a few days later like nothing happened. OK. What year was this? This is in the early 80s. Well, it's still not abnormal. Honestly, honestly, at that point in time, because like I feel like you can't call or text either. Well, it's not even that, but I feel like in the in the early two, you know, early 2000s is where dad started to actually like kind of step up.
00:49:21
Speaker
to be a different role. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whereas back in those times. But she wasn't a stay at home mom. She was a stewardess. Right.
00:49:31
Speaker
But even when she but and you know, again, like men have always been able to just run off, do what they got to do and come back. Yeah. But I'm I'm saying even when she was first pregnant, which they got married because she was pregnant. So this isn't like they remember they had a pretty toxic, like high. It was either high love or high anger relationship. Right. And they only got married because she got pregnant. And so he just would peace out, like just gone. OK.
00:49:58
Speaker
So he also controlled the finances and spent a lot of money. So he was an avid gun collector and weapons collector. His collection was said to be able to fully arm 50 grown men.
00:50:14
Speaker
Well, and we'll get into his weapon collection a little bit just because I thought it was interesting. But he also purchased a lot of lawn equipment. Well, he never used, you know, the lawn's got to be perfect. He his front lawn was filled with landscaping equipment, tractors, mower. There was even a twenty five thousand dollar backhoe and they would just sit there, never have been turned on and they would sit there and rust.
00:50:42
Speaker
Like I I can I can think of five things off the top of my head to better spend your money. But that's what he did. Right. That's weird. He's kind of he's a little eccentric, I guess. He also apparently found every excuse not to be at home. Being a pilot alone, I'm sure took him away a lot. But when he was home, he became an auxiliary police officer. Which is an unpaid position.
00:51:11
Speaker
in his hometown. And I don't know, but he took it like, extremely seriously. Naturally. He was said to spend several hours at the police department, even when he was quote unquote off, but he would sit there. And in 1986, in 1986, he was actually hired as a police officer in the next town. But before that, like when he was in auxiliary, like he'd hang around the police department.
00:51:36
Speaker
He went and bought a Crown Vic, which is the he was the make and model car. Yeah. He had it paint with his own money, bought this car with his own money, had it painted to look like a police officer, outfitted it with like three or four different radios and antenna. And he would legit show up to police calls. That he was not requested to attend, like he just show up. All right. So pause. Where's the trigger? Where's the red flag?
00:52:06
Speaker
Well, because he's kind of a crazy person, but. But that's what I'm saying. Like, OK, I told you you're not going to know where the story is going. And I don't want to, but right now I'm going to sit here and I'm going to say, of course. Why can't I have an opinion, bro? Go ahead. All right. So here's this dude, not a part of the police force in any way. He's a pilot. It's not like he's I mean, he's got a good job. Is he a part of the police force? No, no. But yeah, here he is.
00:52:36
Speaker
period, like that's just what I imagined in my head, like we do. Here I am. I'm just saying like on a on a hypothetical standpoint here. OK, so we get a phone call, right? Breaking and airing some random Crown Vic shows up. And is this dude.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah. Right. In his rid of copies. And in him being taken seriously is like authority. Like they said he spent all kinds of so he outfitted this whole car as a cop car, but he would like spend all this money to send himself to these police seminars and like all these investigation courses. He was a pilot with delusions of grandeur.
00:53:27
Speaker
But in 1986, sorry, in 1986, he actually did get hired by a police department in the town of Southbury. What year? 1986. 1986. OK, so no. Like, you know. No, I mean, tests that you have to take to make sure that you're saying what he did. I mean, he was he was a pilot. He was a very smart guy. He just.
00:53:54
Speaker
But they never looked back at his record and said, well, he pretended to be a. But they looked at him like he was one of the I mean, he was one of them. So he gets hired in the town next at Southbury. He is still a pilot at this point. And he didn't need the money. So like I said, he'd pay for his own seminars like he'd send himself. I don't know. I just assumed he didn't want to be home with the wife of 30 yet. OK.
00:54:23
Speaker
So it's not long into the marriage and Hela could be seen with a very poor makeup job on her face covering bruises. Richard was known to continually be seen with different women. And Hela's friend said she knew about the infidelity but tolerated it. Perhaps she was trying to keep her family together for the kid's sake. Perhaps she wanted to keep up appearances of perfection.
00:54:53
Speaker
Um, she did finally get fed up with Richard and started talking to her friends about divorcing him. And then in the summer of 1986, she finally got to the point where she was done, I guess, and actually hired a divorce attorney. And she also hired a private investigator by the name of Keith Mayo to gather evidence on all her husbands and fidelity and everything else. So she probably to get a better settlement out of the divorce.
00:55:22
Speaker
On the morning of November 19, oh, there was not a mosquito. You were just hitting me back for life. Look here. It was coming. It was coming. Your toddler.
00:55:35
Speaker
If you guys don't mind, send your resumes to twisted tables. You know your time is limited. All right. So the morning of November 19th around 6 a.m., Dawn, who remembers the au pair, was woken up by the crafts and told she needed to leave now to go to Richard's sister's house in Westport with the kids and that they were going to meet her later.
00:56:00
Speaker
The town of Newport had just been hit with a severe winter storm through the night. There was no power. So the house is black and Richard was insistent that the kids had to be taken to his sister's house right away. It wasn't safe. Richard helped get the three kids packed up, put them in the car, they left immediately. Hela had already left earlier. And when Don and the kids arrived, Hela hadn't made it yet.
00:56:26
Speaker
And by 7 p.m. that night, when Richard arrived to help get the kids and Hela and Dawn packed up and back to the house, Hela still hadn't made it to Westport. There's no side of Hela, no one knew where she was. Eventually, Richard did let Dawn know that Hela had flown to Denmark because her mother got really sick, like,
00:56:53
Speaker
life threatening illness and she went to Denmark to be with her mom. So how are so Diane just needed to, or sorry, Dawn just needed to help take care of the kids. Is that real life or is that just a story that was told? We're just going to keep going.
00:57:05
Speaker
All right. So while cleaning the house, Dawn noticed that the night that night when they got back, there were several large pieces of carpet that had been cut out of the master bedroom floor and were missing. And when she asked Richard about it, it was fine. Like she thought it was kind of weird. But while Richard was trying to get the house ready and the power outage, he was trying to light some of those old school kerosene lamps and still kerosene. And he did not want those fumes around his kids. So he cut the he cut that out and and left it.
00:57:37
Speaker
But Hellas still never showed up. So suspicions about her whereabouts started to grow, as no one had heard from her. On December 4th, so we're hitting almost a month now, the Newton police requested Richard Kraft come in for an interview and he even took a lie detector about Hellas whereabouts because her friends were throwing down. Like her friends were good friends and they called the police department every single
00:58:06
Speaker
So they called Richard in, did an interview with him and a lie detector, and he passed everything. He had no idea where Hella's disappearances are.
00:58:15
Speaker
and the detective who was looking into Hella's disappearance, quote unquote, because again, she's in Denmark taking care of her sick mom. Her friends just hate Richard. They always have hated Richard. Right. So the detective wrote in his notes, quote unquote, based on the polygraph exam and my numerous conversations with their craft, he has no knowledge of where his wife is. All right. According to the polygraph.
00:58:40
Speaker
But this is the 80s. Polygraphs were very believed. All right. We know today that they're crap. But back then, that was like the end all be all. OK. So despite several despite this, several detectives were still very suspicious of Richard and Hellas disappearance.
00:58:57
Speaker
They found it odd that a full-time pilot liked to spend his time off playing cop and rode around in his phony cop car. These detectives also listened to Hella's friends who called daily wanting progress on our missing person case. But even with all this, there was no direct evidence that anything criminal had happened. There was nothing.
00:59:19
Speaker
Um, Hella had simply vanished. I mean, and quite frankly, she was a stewardess. She hired someone else to take care of her kids and raise her kids. Maybe she just didn't want to be in this life anymore, right? She just wanted to start over and back. But there's got to be somebody at some point who's like. I heard from Hella. Right. I mean, theoretically, if she just wanted to start like if I was going to turn around and run right now.
00:59:49
Speaker
There was somebody that I'd call and say, hey, no, because they would tell your family and then your husband drag you back, take care of your kids. You don't want to tell anybody. You're not even America's not even your like. I mean, she's from Denmark. She's not from America. She just maybe wanted to start. I don't know. This is just all speculation. OK, so she's not from America. Yeah, she's from Denmark. But the murder. Is taking place in. You're assuming there's a murder.
01:00:19
Speaker
the True Crime podcast. Ooh. Ooh. OK. Listen, detectives decided to call Richard back in for another interview and play a little hardball. So on December 11th, while Richard was on duty in Southbury, the Newton detectives called over to that police department asking for crafts to be sent over for additional questioning.
01:00:44
Speaker
He arrived at 9.20 p.m. in full officer uniform and sat down with Lieutenant Michael Dejosa and Detective Robert Tivitsky. He literally, he complied. Like he had no problem sitting down with them. He was, he had nothing to hide. So the two questioned Kraft directly about his knowledge on his wife, about if he knew about the fact his wife had hired a PI and a divorce attorney.
01:01:14
Speaker
And he did not, I've got the whole transcript of this, so I'll post it on our Instagram and on our Facebook. But no, he didn't know about that. So they asked him, did he know that she had hard evidence about his ongoing affair with a woman from New Jersey? Again.
01:01:31
Speaker
craft denied any knowledge. Not only did he not know that his wife knew, he said, I don't care. She knows about all the other women. This isn't like a big deal. So they asked him to go over all the events from November 19th again, all the conversations, like tell him about his whole night. He told him about it all. He woke them up, helped get them in the car.
01:01:52
Speaker
The kids in the car woke Dawn up, was trying to get the house prepared for when they got back. He carried some kerosene in, dumped it all over, cut the carpet off. That way the house wouldn't stink because he didn't want the house. A, he didn't want the fumes in the house because he didn't want anything like to explode while he was gone. He didn't want the fumes like saturating the house for when his kids got back. So he just cut up the sections of the carpet, took it out. Like he took them through everything. Like nothing changed. Everything checked out. So. Wow. Okay. That's weird. Yeah.
01:02:21
Speaker
But that's weird. Yeah, like it's the whole thing. I was just going to tell you the whole thing is what happened. No, they said take us through every step of that night. And he did like he didn't leave anything out. He didn't hide anything like he just took him through. This is what happened. I did this. I did this. I did this. I did this. And so that for our podcast, that's abnormal. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
Well, her friends did not give up. They continued hounding the police, even so far as going to say that she was afraid for herself with regards to serving him with divorce papers. And she told her friends to check on her, to check if anything ever happened. If she ever went missing, don't let it go.
01:03:04
Speaker
So her friends are saying, I understand that you're saying he checks out, but she told us she was scared to divorce him and that if she said it, she would never go missing. If anything ever happened, don't let it go. It's not of her own volition. So this is what the police are up against real quick. So, um, you've got this woman scared, supposedly says her friends, but
01:03:30
Speaker
The other side of that devil's advocate, her friends have always hated Richard. So of course they're going to say all this. Richard has had nothing. He has been super upfront. He's been super helpful. His story has never wavered. No details have been like omitted or changed. So it's really like he said he's confessing to confess. So it's not like he's never going to be held accountable for anything that could possibly happen in the future.
01:04:00
Speaker
Well, regardless Richard answered all their questions. Um, they couldn't catch him in a lie outright, but they did notice the more he talked. There seemed to be a few half truths. And for a man whose wife suddenly vanished without a trace, he seemed extremely apathetic, but that alone was not enough to hold him. So they released him to go home.
01:04:23
Speaker
But the detectives were starting to become more and more convinced that something had happened. So apathetic. Like he just didn't care. Thank you. You're welcome. I just wanted a little explanation just in case. Yeah. Blame it on the viewers, even though you didn't know what it meant. I'm going to hit you again. So the detectives were becoming more convinced. I know what apathetic means. Something had happened to Hela. And one way or the other, Richard was involved.
01:04:50
Speaker
But they couldn't tell. They couldn't prove anything. It was just at the standstill. Keith Mayo, however, remember the PI? He wasn't going to give up on his client. Keith continually called the investigators. He reviewed all events surrounding the disappearance of Pella and brought up any point that showed Richard's apparent guilt at all.
01:05:13
Speaker
He continued to call them, continued to dig, but with no evidence, the police finally told Keith there was nothing they could do. So Keith decided he was going to get the evidence himself. Keith went to the local dump in Newton and searched, trying to find the missing carpet pieces by hand, knowing that if he could find that, there would be blood on the carpet. He just knew it. It's not going to have kerosene.
01:05:37
Speaker
So the local trash pickup crew, he went and met with them that picked up the craft garbage. Newton. Newton was where they lived. Okay. Newton what?
01:05:48
Speaker
Thank you. So he went and talked to the people that picked up the craft's trash and told them the Newton's garbage actually wasn't put in the dump in, sorry, the Newton's. The craft wasn't put in the dump in Newton. It was actually put in the Canterbury dump, which is about two miles east. So he recruited some people to help and they spent the next several days going through mountains of trash located there.
01:06:12
Speaker
So these people literally, multiple people being knee deep in household garbage with many of them gagging and cursing teeth spent days, but finally were able to locate a portion of the rug that was identical to that of the missing craft floor. And you're kidding me. No. And Mayo was a hundred percent sure of these missing pieces.
01:06:36
Speaker
did have human blood on it because that's exactly what it looked like. There's splatter of human blood. So he took it to a lab in Meridian where a forensic scientist named Henry Lee was gonna analyze it. Dr. Henry Lee was like a huge forensic scientist in this area. At this point, now that there's some movement here, the Prescott wind of the missing suburban housewife.
01:07:04
Speaker
So on December 17th, the Danbury News Time published the first story about the missing Newton woman, quote unquote. And while the police chief gave a nice sound bite about hoping to find her safely, she was supposedly in Denmark taking care of her mother. Mayo again came out swinging stating, I don't think she disappeared of her own accord. And I am concerned the Newton police are going
01:07:28
Speaker
after this case in piecemeal. That was his quote unquote. So he fired a shot basically that the police were protecting one of their own and not doing their job. This caused extreme pressure for the case to be solved. And the Newton police were now being publicly criticized by everyone. And the state's attorney wanted to take the case away from them and give it to the state police. Right.
01:07:53
Speaker
However, at this time, Dr. Lee's report finally came back and he had to let Mayo and everyone know that after multiple hours and several repetitive tests, there was in fact not a single drop of blood on the carpet samples found in the dump. Are you serious? Actually cares. All right. Okay. So this was a huge setback, but the pressure and attention had already started.
01:08:18
Speaker
and was not letting up to find where Hella was. Yeah, because she's nowhere. So jurisdiction of Hella's missing person case was handed over to the detectives at the Western District Major Crimes Unit who started looking into all events right before she disappeared. In October, a month before Hella's vanishing, a MasterCard, the family's MasterCard showed a large capacity freezer being purchased in Danbury. Ooh. A month before.
01:08:47
Speaker
which was paid for, and he also paid to have it stored and then delivered on November 19th. Around the same time, there was several large rental charges from Darien Rentals. It's a machinery, which that's normal for him because he buys all this crazy crap.
01:09:07
Speaker
So that Christmas, December 15th, 1968, Richard took his kids to Florida for the holidays and detectives decided that this was an opportune time to execute a search warrant on the craft's property. So Christmas Day, several detectives, several
01:09:24
Speaker
crime scene investigators and even Dr. Henry Lee himself agreed to be there and oversee the collection of evidence. So all these police scene investigators, crime techs, everyone entered five Newton lane in Newton, Connecticut through a back window to search the house. So this is how these people decided to spend their Christmas. Like that's how big this case had gotten. Okay.
01:09:47
Speaker
But all right, just keep going. So they entered the house and while it was empty, it was in complete disarray. Furniture was thrown about. Piles of dirty clothes covered every surface. Used dishes and utensils that unwashed on the countertops and sink. Stranger mattresses lay on the bare floor of the living room with a few boxes of toys close by and all the carpet and the entire house had been removed. Sounds like my house on a given day, but that's fine.
01:10:17
Speaker
And then they finally found it. They found the freezer. So they all gathered around this freezer and you could like hear the pregnant paws because they're about to find hella's body, right? Okay. And they opened the freezer and nothing. Really? Just an empty, clean freezer.
01:10:39
Speaker
So they were able to see... This story is starting to piss me off, bro. So they were able to seize 108 pieces of weaponry to test for trace evidence to see if they'd been fired recently, there's any blood residue, maybe some of hell is DNA. These weapons included multiple Smith and Westens, 358 revolvers, 38 revolvers, multiple Colt Python pistols, Ruger carbon fiber rifles,
01:11:07
Speaker
Finnish automatic weapons, 12 gauge pump shotguns, Winchester rifles, Beretta handguns with clips, 38 automatic... Beretta. Beretta, sorry. 38 automatic handguns, two hand grenades, a Beretta Crossbow, a Walther PPK handgun, two 9mm semi-automatic guns, Heck, Cocker, .40 caliber pistols, over-under style universal shotguns, as well as multiple boxes of ammunition,
01:11:38
Speaker
That was his arsenal. What is going on, right? What's going on? So along with this, they also took several fibers from the mattresses, different beddings, towels, washcloths, anything to test for evidence, blood or DNA. Doctor Lee told them like the best things to take, what's the most likely? At the same time, Doctor Lee performed a luminal test in various locations throughout the entire house trying to find like blood that had been cleaned up.
01:12:04
Speaker
There were a few positive tests for the presence of blood, but not like the overwhelming amount you would think in a murder cleanup situation, just like normal, like slicing your finger on the kitchen. So the question remains, where is hella craft? Taking care of her mom. At this point, I legit. She ran away like she just she was done. I'm just saying what you said before. Take care of her mom. So the next week, things rapidly start to fall into place.
01:12:33
Speaker
Detectives ascertain a rental from Doreen's rental that was on the MasterCard. It was for a wood chipper that the crafts had rented and picked up on November 19th, which led the detectives to really worry about what that meant. Right. So December 30th, 1986, detectives Patrick McCaffrey and T.K. Brown located Joseph Hines, who is a utility worker in Southbury,
01:13:03
Speaker
who was plowing snow on River Road during the storm the day of hell is disappearance. So that night that the crafts left and everything else, this guy was plowing snow on their street. So they asked him if they could remember anything and listen to him tell a story about observing a wood chipper in a U-Haul parked on the side of the road in the middle of the night. Detectives drove with Heinz over to the shores of the river just outside South Bear and he showed them the exact spot, the truck,
01:13:30
Speaker
was that had been towing the wood chipper had been seen in an area known as Lake Zor. Detectives saw piles of wood chips
01:13:40
Speaker
along the riverbank and then observe some like like little I was going to say possibly containing human particles. Small green plastic mixed in with these woodjacks. All right. Detective Brown literally got down on his hands and knees to shift through this material to see if they could find anything.
01:14:01
Speaker
The wind blowing off the river was absolutely freezing. The skies looked like they were about to open up and just pour down snow at any second, but he did not give up. He finally managed to find a few scraps of shredded paper in the debris, and then he found a few pieces of mail that could clearly be read Miss Helle L. Craft, 5 Newton Lane, Newton, Connecticut.
01:14:23
Speaker
so we finally have concrete proof that this is Richard. But it went through a chipper. No, this smell was just there. Like it was just in all this debris. Okay. So within an hour, they had enough to get search teams to descend upon this scene. A perimeter was quickly set up and the search started in earnest. Every single inch of the ground was gone over at least twice as the team photographed every small bit of evidence they were able to find at this site.
01:14:50
Speaker
They found several additional envelopes with Hella's name, numerous strands of blonde hair, fabric, cloth, plastic items, wood chips, many unidentified material, then finally someone found a bone fragment. Each piece of evidence, no matter how small, had to undergo scientific analysis with the forensic lab, however, to determine what it was.
01:15:14
Speaker
Quickly the detectives went to get the wood chipper at the rental place and have it towed to the forensic lab so it too could be examined for anything there. For days these detectives searched Lake Zor Beach in at least one miles in both directions from the starting site. They attempted to put divers down in the lake, but it was so cold they couldn't search. So instead they obtained permission to lower the water levels by restricting the flow of water to dam nearby.
01:15:43
Speaker
one diver before the dam water was lowered was actually able to locate a stealth chain embedded in the muddy bottom of the river. But evidence was that it had not been there long. So this is a nice woman's chain, like a necklace that hello would have worn. It looked recent. So every this discover renewed everyone's hopes and gave them like the determination to stay out there because it is freaking cool. Well, do you need to say something or you want me to continue? Nope, just go.
01:16:13
Speaker
Days later, they were rewarded as one of the detectives found a piece of a human toe. Then shortly afterwards, a fragment of a finger, then part of a tooth. Please continue to search through the riverbanks in knee-deep mud, trembling from the cold and ice, but pushed on. In the end, Dr. Lee, this is what he examined.
01:16:35
Speaker
And this is what he stated. Our team's efforts at Lake Zor led to the discovery of 2,660 strands of blonde hair, 69 slivers of human bone, five droplets of human blood, two teeth, a tourniquet piece of a human skull. And I didn't know what that was. The tourniquet means shortened or without its top or in section. So just a piece of the human skull, basically. Okay. Three ounces of human tissue, a portion of a human finger, one fingernail, and a portion of a toe.
01:17:05
Speaker
OK. Is that it? That's all the pieces that they that everything that they could. But what I want to say. Is guys.
Richard Kraft Case and Justice System Flaws
01:17:16
Speaker
Don't think for a second. That people don't do their job. That's that's insane. That's some serious information. It is, but it's also a river.
01:17:30
Speaker
Well, no, I understand that. But what I'm saying is is to be so detailed. Oh, yeah. And to be so care the blonde hair, they were able to. That's what I'm saying. Two thousand six hundred sixty strands of blonde. They weeded out all of their colors just to get the blonde. But that's what I'm saying. Yeah, insane. What I'm saying is we don't discount what police officers do their job. We get a lot of bad police officers that we tell in these podcasts sometimes.
01:18:00
Speaker
but there's some darn good ones. Yeah. Like that's real life. Yeah. These are people that are going out and counting strands of air. And Dr. Lee went back to his forensic lab and all the items mentioned above belong to Helicraft. So finally on January 11th, an arrest warrant was issued by the Newton court for Richard Kraft.
01:18:29
Speaker
that night at nine p.m. And this is I'm not laughing because it's not funny that she was put through a wood chipper. But at nine p.m., a dozen Connecticut state troopers and detectives showed up at five Newton Lane to surround the home and arrest crap. They called his landline and told him you're surrounded. You need to come out peacefully for your kids sake and not fight. We're going to arrest you. And his response is, I'm tired. I'll take care of this in the morning. Naturally. And hung up on him.
01:18:59
Speaker
Of course. So they called back and they said, we are not kidding. We have evidence. You're being arrested for your wife's murder. You need to come outside. And he said, stop calling me. I'm tired and hung up. Oh, eventually he did come out of his own volition. They did arrest him.
01:19:18
Speaker
The trial all also, which is weird, because your case was the last time a person was murdered by hanging young. This was the first time in history of Connecticut that there was a murder trial without a dead body. Are you serious? Because there is no body. That's crazy. OK. All right. President President said in case there is no body. You cannot prove she's dead. You found some we can. I was just going to say.
01:19:48
Speaker
Air, toes, whatever. OK. So for the next 53 days, this trial took place. There were over 100 witnesses that spoke. There were over 650 exhibits presented to the jury. And the jury spent the next two weeks in deliberation. And one jury refused to say he was guilty, so a missed trial was declared.
01:20:14
Speaker
Yeah, 59 days, 53 days of testimony, 100 people testifying, 650 exhibits and two weeks of deliberation. And they declared a mistrial. Other jurors were so pissed off and said it was so there was one guy, literally one guy, one guy who's like, nope, I don't know. No, they said the other jurors said it was literally like trying to talk to a child.
01:20:40
Speaker
He just kept saying not guilty. He wouldn't tell them why. He wouldn't talk to them at all. Just not guilty. No, not guilty. Hmm. Wouldn't even like discuss it like they would go through all the evidence. They'd go through all the pictures. They'd go through everything and he just not. That was it. All right. So they had to go through a second. So he's not going to the gallows. So they did do they they did retry him.
01:21:05
Speaker
Exactly the same time seeing all hundred witnesses showed back up the same 650 exhibits and after eight hours of deliberation the jury unanimously found him guilty of murdering his wife hella craft really and that announcement came on November 22nd 21st 1989 So it was no way. All right. All right. So my guy was sentenced to death in 79
01:21:34
Speaker
Well, this guy we're not we're not done yet. So it was nineteen eighty six November nineteen eighty six. The hella disappeared and was put through a wood chipper and it wasn't until November twenty first nineteen eighty nine that he was found guilty deal. What he did his wife do a wood chipper. Yeah.
01:22:00
Speaker
Well, you hear the real kick of the pants evidence. We found a toe. She clearly she could still be. Fingers. So being sarcastic. Yeah. All right. He was found guilty and he was sentenced to 50 years in prison. He was not given the death penalty at all, but.
01:22:23
Speaker
Um, he was not given the death penalty. No, he served 50 years in prison. But as of January 2020, he's been released. And he now lives in a halfway house in New Haven. Hmm. Um, let's put his wife to a wood chipper. Can we have a moment of silence? I need to gather my thoughts. Can we do this just three seconds? Ready? Go. OK, so what you're telling me is.
01:22:53
Speaker
We can in America. Right. Go and shoot a couple up. In 1970s ish, right? Ten years before. Get sentenced to death because the jury at that time was like, dude, you're ungodly. You're just vile, vile, vile. This guy put his wife to a wood. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. OK.
01:23:23
Speaker
So, uh, he shot the people, right? Which is horrible. Sat him up in here? What? No, guys, death in general, when you kill somebody else is not an okay thing. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, you have a guy who killed these people, right? Place them on a sofa, if you will. Then you have a guy who kills his wife
01:23:53
Speaker
and puts it through a wood chipper, OK? Now, there are all kinds, all kinds of laws and whatever against what you do to a dead human. I feel like that should probably be up there. But I digress, right? So my guy got hung for his crimes.
01:24:21
Speaker
shooting two people in 1996. My guy got released in 2020 after putting his wife to a wood chipper. Yep. And I'm OK. So I want to and I will post these online. But look at how beautiful she was. Oh, wow. Like she legit looks like someone who could be like the royal family to me like. No, man, she's just a typical.
01:24:46
Speaker
middle class woman. And I'm going to show you ready to live her life, man. Let me show you how far out of his coverage he kicked because I'm going to show you their family picture now. OK. This this is the man who put that beautiful woman through a wood chipper. Wow. He looks like he could be her father. Hey, guys, have you ever heard of trading?
01:25:11
Speaker
I don't know. Saturn for a Corvette. She could have done so much better. Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. So much better. It's like a Colbert and a Ferrari like. Oh, my goodness, man. Actually, I actually have one more picture to show you and I'll post all this.
01:25:39
Speaker
But that's the evidence. Like, that's that's how detailed they were. Like, there's pieces of the actual evidence that they showed at trial. That's sick. Because pieces. And he is now free to live his life. All right. So here we are again in a small conundrum, right? Where. We have a dude and yeah, he murdered two people, he murdered them.
01:26:08
Speaker
plain and simple, didn't care. All right. And he was hung. Huh? Now, I don't know if you guys know how violent that actually is. OK. And then you have Faith's guy. Through his wife into a wood chipper, wood chipper, Lisa, a wood. No, I know. I know.
01:26:32
Speaker
I don't know if any of you guys have ever seen what a wood chipper does, but it literally is blades upon blades spinning as fast as they could possibly go. To chop up. Tree branches and tree trunks in the mulch.
01:26:53
Speaker
And that's what he did to his wife. And he just spent 50 years in jail for it and then was allowed back into public. I don't feel safe with him in public. This is the gray area, I think, that we discuss a lot. Like, what what do we hold somebody accountable for? Right. Like, what is the definition of a death sentence? Well, that that's what bothers me is
01:27:23
Speaker
that's that is that was my argument when you kept yelling conspiracy and I kept saying no shut up it's not about the conspiracy within in sunny Jacob's case yeah the problem I have with the death penalty like I agree that there are certain people who deserve to be put to death if you harm a child you should it should be automatic we put down dogs for it we should put down people sorry if you don't agree with that but
01:27:48
Speaker
sexually are physically abusing a child is it for me? Like there is no second chance for you in my opinion. I agree. But it's not it's not standardized. Like it's it's human error. Humans are the ones that get to make this decision. It's 12 random people with a different set of convictions. So if we're going to have the death penalty, it needs to be like you meet criteria A, B and C and it's the death penalty. Yeah. But my my my thoughts on that is what we talked about.
01:28:18
Speaker
on my case about medication. Like, OK, so we had this girl that killed her mom. Yeah, she's on medication. She's fine. She gets released into the world. Yeah. OK. So if she stops taking her medication, what happens? She's going to go back to kill people. OK, so that's that's my dilemma. My dilemma is if you are willing to kill your wife and put her in a friggin wood chip. That's what I'm saying.
01:28:48
Speaker
OK, that's where my my gray area lies. But I'm not saying that there's no innocent people that get put to death. That's not what I'm saying. But that's my problem with the death penalty is it's not like there's not like a standard determination of who gets it and who doesn't. Innocent people do go get put on death row. They live on death row. They're finally exonerated are some of them are actually put to death.
01:29:15
Speaker
for crimes they didn't commit. Now, if they're convicted of the crime and it is heinous enough, it's a moot point. That's my point. What is heinous enough? What is the standard of what puts someone to death? It's all just what that person's thing is, is there's no set. You can do something horrible and just get put in jail for a couple of years and then released, and then you can do something not as horrible and get put to death. There is no standard.
01:29:45
Speaker
I agree. That's why I have that. And now before the podcast, I was 100 percent for the death penalty. Now I kind of have like I'm not against it because like I said, I do, but I feel like it needs to be more standardized. I mean, it's obviously not a standardized test, but there needs to be some kind of like if you do this, this is your repercussion, not just this wish. You know, but like what I'm saying is. If it's proven.
01:30:13
Speaker
You are 110% guilty, eye for an eye. You may not like it, okay? But you can go to other different countries, you steal something, they lop your hand off. There are still places now in 2022
01:30:30
Speaker
And actually we were stopped in our pause break and Lisa's mom did some more research and came out and told us up until 2021 last year hanging was acceptable in three States in the United States of America. Cause that's where we, we lived. And I don't know if hangings are available other places like him, but people could choose to be put to death by hanging as of 2021 in three States. That's not a bad thing. It's just insane to me that hangings are a thing.
01:31:01
Speaker
What I'm saying is if you're going to be sentenced to death, it shouldn't be, especially if you're a guy.
01:31:10
Speaker
who tortured someone before they get me put to death because someone else got a deal. That shouldn't be thing because that's what agreed in his case. Sonny Jacobs, original husband who's put to death in the electric chair was done wrong and it burned him alive. Right. He only got sent us to death based off the words of the actual murderer who made a deal. That shouldn't be allowed. It should be concrete evidence. I agree.
01:31:39
Speaker
I agree a hundred and ten percent. Sorry. No, no, no. You throw that out there. I get it. I wasn't saying you don't. Like I've got a lot of opinions on the death penalty now, but I don't know. It's just we've got to do better. He he put his wife through a wood chipper. He should not have spent five years.
01:31:58
Speaker
getting three square mils a day with PE time, arts and crafts, and get to work and go to the commissary and have people do his laundry. I wanna paint some pictures and then I'm gonna do some workout and then I'm gonna go night and night. Yeah, he got all that. People even clean his cell, like he had living maid service basically for 50 years after putting his wife to a wood chipper and then he got to go back out like nothing happened. But, oh.
01:32:25
Speaker
See here, guys, here lies the ultimate question. Who is the death penalty reserved for? OK, should it be left in the hands 12 jurors? Yeah, 12 jurors on on average average. Sorry, guys. 12 jurors. And your life. Depends on what they think. It's a crappy concept, but at the same time, right?
01:32:53
Speaker
Like, who do we listen to? Like. The evidence. Yeah, listen to people. You listen to facts. That's the deal. That was the point that I was going to try to drive in like. It's not a popularity contest. No, it's not a beauty pageant. It should be like this is what happened because here's the proof we have to back it up. Here's the videos.
01:33:20
Speaker
Here's the remains. Here's the pieces of the remains in this case. Like it's not, you know, I don't agree with all her friends that are coming in and saying, well, you know, she was scared of them. They always hated him. They made no bones about the fact they always hated him. Like you can't believe their testimony alone. That's why I told the story the way I did because you didn't know until the end, you didn't know if he actually did anything.
01:33:48
Speaker
But the evidence showed that he did. I've got pictures of the wood chipper. I've got pictures of the evidence. I'll post it all. But the evidence showed it. It wasn't people's testimony who didn't like him. It wasn't people who had a bad feeling. It was people who did the work, the police officers and the investigators that did the work to find all these little pieces and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he killed his wife.
01:34:11
Speaker
He should have been given that only. Yeah. Here's the thing. So I'm going to ask a question. For anybody that's out there listening, OK? How far are you willing to go? When you sit and listen to the. Devastation that happens to another human being. Because her kids are. And now. But what I'm saying is, OK, so as a jury.
01:34:38
Speaker
Right. You're only going to get presented with what the cops tell you they found. Right or wrong? Correct. OK. What's admissible in court? Not what they found. Right. The court with the lawyers both sides deem admissible. Right. So my question is. How far are you willing to go? My question is you haven't asked a question.
01:35:05
Speaker
I did. How far are you willing to go? At what? That doesn't. It's not a complete. You're sitting here in a jury box. All the evidence is presented to you. Are you going to let your conscience tell you it's not OK to murder another human being? Or are you going to say I for not? See, that's the gray area.
01:35:26
Speaker
It is. It's all about what somebody else feels. And it's they can be innocent. They could be guilty. They could be any of the above. But it's still that person. That's the problem I have. You've got people who just don't care about other people.
01:35:42
Speaker
me, my four, no more. Then you got people who have convictions and faith and their faith says to forgive and their convictions say that, you know, are someone who I was a horrible person and now I've changed my life. Like you have all these human experiences that are making up those 12 jurors. It's not the same every time. There's no, again, there's no standardization.
01:36:04
Speaker
There's no like A, B and C. If you if the evidence finds him guilty and the jurors find him guilty, then it should be like a rule book of, OK, the jury's all humanity says he's guilty. This is what he did. Now let's look and look at the, you know, like the graph to show what the punishment is. It shouldn't be that different people around the world get to get to decide the fate, depending on. Well, not around the world, but that's the point that I was trying to make.
01:36:34
Speaker
What you just said is the absolute truth. Because what if they had a bad day? Like they got stuck in traffic, they got cut off, they got in a fight with their spouse before they came to the courthouse that day. They're going to give a harsher penalty, not because they believe it's deserved, but because they're pissed off at the world and they want to make somebody pay for their bad day. Yeah, not even just that, but simply the fact that 90 percent of them don't want to be there. Yeah, that's not the way it is. You know, you get paid to be a juror, right? But not what you get paid to be at work.
01:37:05
Speaker
Right. Right. How many people really want to sit in the jury box and say, you know, I care about this. I got called for jury duty like a few years ago and I actually had to go like two days and I got three dollars and 13 cents for my eight hour day there. Yeah. Three dollars and 13 cents. But it's my problem with it is.
01:37:27
Speaker
you can be affected by external circumstances in your own mood, your own, your own background, your own, you know, there's just too many variables and they're not the same variable. But what if we actually presented guilty or not, but I'm not fine with them stating the judgment of what needs to happen. Like if they find him guilty with all the evidence and everything else, then they're literally like, there needs to be some kind of standardized, like,
01:37:53
Speaker
Here's the crime. He's guilty. Here's the sentence, not just what the court feels that day. I agree. 110 percent. But again, like you just said, you got paid what, three dollars and 50 cents, 13. I'm sorry. I over exaggerated. Your sense. But what I'm saying is, is like if you actually gave people a reason.
01:38:19
Speaker
I mean, guys. But in the flip side of that, be a decent human being. If you're called for jury duty, it sucks. But do the best job you can. And you do need to listen to your conscience. And you know what? But here's the deal. That most people are not going to because of what you said. I guess they're not going to care. OK, because they're getting paid. It doesn't like a percent or if it doesn't affect them. Exactly.
01:38:44
Speaker
But you know what? As much as it pissed me off that that one juror just kept saying, not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. If that's what he felt, who knows to him for standing up and not falling to peer pressure because those 12 people in the room are just duking it out. I would agree to that. Now, I don't agree with his decision, but if 11 people are staring at you saying, say guilty and he does not honestly believe that man is guilty. But here's the deal.
01:39:09
Speaker
If the death penalty is on the table and one person, two people, whoever doesn't believe in the death penalty, what are they going to say? Not guilty. Exactly. Well, they still have. So now you have a guy. But now you have a guy guilty or not, then death penalty or not. Like, it's not like I agree. But here's the deal. Well, what are the what are the chances he's guilty of all the crimes he committed?
01:39:37
Speaker
All I'm saying is you have one person on the jury who doesn't believe in the death penalty, right? They know that's an option. They know it's on the table, right? I don't know if this is a death penalty case, though. But what I'm saying is, OK, if you are admin about not killing someone for the crimes they commit, you're on a jury and you know 110% this person is guilty.
01:40:06
Speaker
We're going to say not guilty for the sole reason that we don't believe in the death penalty. But you could only be put to death if it's a capital offense. And that's your guy who got put to death because he robbed something and then in tandem killed people. So it made it a capital murder case. This guy just put his, you know, just put his wife through a woodchipper. That's not a capital offense. That guy stole. It's just the case. I told you about that poor lady.
01:40:35
Speaker
He stole one dollar from her purse, brutally murdered her. Now, he deserves the death penalty for what he did to her, to her and her body. But because he stole that one dollar, it was a capital offense. It was a capital murder case. Yeah, because there was multiple crimes committed against an individual. This guy didn't do multiple. He quote, unquote, just put his wife through a wheelchair. All I'm trying to say is all it takes is one person. Yeah. One person. OK. And if that one person decides
01:41:04
Speaker
This is not acceptable to me. In my personal belief, now your guy got sentenced to how many years? 50. And then left. He will have spent 50. I don't know how many he was sentenced to in all fairness. But he got to leave after putting his wife through a woodchipper. Now, in a capital murder case, when they're due in jury selection, they do ask if they're against the death penalty and they can be excused if they are. Right, because people always tell the truth.
01:41:32
Speaker
People are going to say yes, but they want to get out of jury duty. But that's what I'm trying to say. But again, if it's somebody who believes. But then we get guys walking free who put their wives through a wood chipper. Thumbs up the United States Justice. So there you go. Well, it's an argument. It'll go back and forth for 100000 years, but there's never going to be a real concrete answer to any of
01:42:03
Speaker
going to keep going. You can hate to hate the death penalty or you can agree with it. Either way. There is no good answer. Because it's human error. Yeah. How do you justify one crime and not another?
01:42:22
Speaker
Well, it's just like people which and I get it. People who don't believe in spanking have good logic because you're going to like if your kid hit someone and you tell them don't hit, you're getting a spanking now. It's the same thing like don't commit murder. We're going to kill you now. Right. So how can you tell someone not to do something and punish them by doing what you told them not to do?
01:42:45
Speaker
Well, there is just you needed it's it's as simple as teaching consequences from the perfect example. It was like two months ago, River Rachel's at my brother, my sister-in-law and their kids were at they went to whatever I think they went to Target and River had a piece of candy in his hand, put in his pocket and stole it. And then in the car, River started eating candy and Zach noticed it and said, where'd you get that?
01:43:12
Speaker
And Rivers, you know, three or four. So he said, I took it from Target. Zach slammed the brakes, turned around, drove right back to Target, marched Rivers a little butt into the manager's office, which he said, coincidentally, a police officer just happened to be in the manager's office and made Rivers tell them, I stole this candy.
01:43:34
Speaker
I am sorry. And River sobbing the whole time. And River, he's four, had to sit there and explain that he stole this piece of candy. He's sorry. What could he do to make it right? That's what he was forced to do. And I think that's the right call.
01:43:49
Speaker
they needed it's not oh it's a piece of candy I mean Zach easily could have said it's a piece of candy it's 50 cents whatever but he chose to show River consequences and to show River what the right way was and drove back I mean also River had to run laps when he got home you know made River a
01:44:09
Speaker
own up to what he'd done. Right. It wasn't slipped under the rug. It wasn't just a piece of candy. Oh, he's just for no. Drove back to Target, went to the manager's office, made his son say, I stole this. I'm sorry. What can I do to make this right? Right. But as a young adult river,
01:44:31
Speaker
has a memory to
Teaching Responsibility Through Anecdotes
01:44:32
Speaker
look back on. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's going to be like a core memory for him because he was embarrassed. He was upset like River is the sweetest.
01:44:41
Speaker
kid ever. I know. And so, I mean, it hurt his heart that he did that. Like he was a wreck. Like when they were telling me about him a week later and River overheard like instantly head down, shoulders down. Like he was ashamed that he did that. But it's something he's going to remember that when you do the wrong thing, you have to take responsibility for your actions. And I personally believe that that's what this community, what this day and age is missing.
01:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's no responsibility. It's talked your way out of it. Just like we said last week. No, no, no, it's just a dismissal. It's oh, well, his feelings were hurt or, you know, I mean this. No, I'm not going to get into that barrel of worms. All right. But what I'm saying is. There are always a consequence for actions, so.
01:45:32
Speaker
As a parent, as a human, as whatever, okay? You go into a parking lot at Walmart, you mess with some big dude, and he punches you in the face. It's still your fault. You started it. All right. Well, we can go in circles about this all night. All night. We're way over.
01:45:52
Speaker
Super over. We're almost two hours in. Move. I promise, Frankie, I wouldn't do this long. I'm in trouble. Yeah. Well, all right. Well, when you need a break, Faith, you need a break. I didn't have a kid today, so I was good either way. Yeah, I did. All right. Well, I I feel weird saying this, but I always say, I hope you enjoyed our stories. I hope you guys are having a great summer. I hope we mildly pissed you off last made you think.
01:46:19
Speaker
At least always piss people off. I also hope that if you want to like just shoot your opinion. Please do. We'd love to hear from you. Yeah. We have one follower like one new follower on Facebook, but we'd like to hear from you. Are not. Like a loser.
01:46:40
Speaker
Why do you have to be like that? Why do you gotta be so pessimistic?
Conclusion and Listener Interaction
01:46:43
Speaker
I'm not just saying. Hey, guys, you want to argue with somebody? Are you really love to argue mainly with each other? Yeah. Yeah. We'd still love to hear from you. And if you have a different opinion, that's great. Hey, guess what? We can have different opinions and still be friends.
01:46:58
Speaker
I was good. Well played, because I will argue back and forth, but I argue things that I don't believe in care less what you believe in. But still, let's let's let's have a conversation. Yeah. Facebook on Facebook. Twisted Tales. True Crime. We're on Instagram. So and I'm I am going to post a lot of stuff on hell of this week. I posted some stuff last week on the caddy cabins. Yeah, guys, it'll be a hell of a good time.
01:47:29
Speaker
All right, well, hope you guys have a great week. Hope you're having a great summer. Stay cool, because it's hot as blue blazes out there. And we'll see. Well, we won't see you, but hopefully we'll hear from you and you'll hear from us in a few days. Do you hate me still? Resumes at Twisted Tales. True Crime. True Crime at gmail.com. Any we can we can do it remotely. We can we can tell we can tell you don't have to be beside me.
01:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be hella great. Oh, Lord. OK. Have a great week. Bye. Bye.