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146- I think I need to call the vegan police...
88 Plays1 month ago
What do you do when a vegan in your life does something that...well...just isn't really that vegan? Does it depend on how 'serious' the 'transgression' is? And by even thinking in this way, are we falling into 'vegan policing'? Or just keeping it real for the animals? In this episode Mark, Julie & Ant talk about specific times in their lives when they've weighed up whether to say something or not, as well as hypothetical situations & general tips & things to avoid.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Julie, Mark & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
hello Hello, everybody. Now, picture the scene. Your vegan friend, neighbor, partner, coworker, random person off the internet, podcaster, who you know and love is living their vegan life. And then all of a sudden you notice them doing something distinctly non-vegan. What do you do? Ah! This is Vegan Talk from Enough of the Falafel. I'm Anthony. And for this episode, I'm also joined by Julie and Mark.
00:00:41
Speaker
of florida hate you protein and what about your iron should they call amelia and say hi sort they're arguing like oh poor
00:01:03
Speaker
as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be
Veganism and Humor
00:01:06
Speaker
alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:11
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everybody, it's Julie here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you very much for joining us. Hi everyone, this is Mark. Welcome to Vegan Talk and today we're going to discuss what to do when vegans do non-vegan things. Now, as we very regularly point out, we are not the vegan police. If you've if you've watched Scott Pilgrim versus The World, which is a great film, came out in 2010, I'd recommend it. There is the vegan police in that film, they're very funny and they crack down on someone when they accidentally drink some dairy milk. We are not that we're not claiming to be that, so any discussion here, we are talking about our own
00:01:58
Speaker
personal responses and quandaries with these sorts of things in the hope that it will be entertaining, instructive, insightful or whatever. I mean I think an interesting way to start this off might be to go for some examples of what we might be talking about. we We'll talk more philosophically and more generally but let's just take a couple of random examples.
Addressing Accidental Non-Vegan Choices
00:02:22
Speaker
So Mark I'm going to come to you first you've got a vegan friend and you've noticed that they regularly buy lilt and you were thinking to yourself, hmm, that fizzy drink lilt that tastes so tropical and so fine, but I've got a feeling it's not vegan and actually you look it up and you realize, yeah, there's fish gelatin in it. In a sense,
00:02:42
Speaker
that might be quite a straightforward situation if you think that they don't realise that it contains the product but nonetheless what what do you think you'd do in that situation? What I would do in that situation and the way I approach this generally is how would I like someone else to react if if it was me drinking the lilt and I had a vegan friend who was aware there was gelatin in it but I and would would I like to be informed about that and if the answer is yes then I would have no problem ah friendly in a friendly way in informing my friend that there was fish gelatin in the product that they regularly buy here because I would want to know if I was doing it because I do not want to be consuming fish.
00:03:24
Speaker
so So that's what I would generally approach it if if if I wouldn't mind hearing it as long as it was delivered in a and nice friendly way then I would ah have no problem expressing it myself. Yeah and have you just out of interest like have you ever been in that situation where someone someone who you know who is vegan you've noticed there's something accidental that that they're doing or through conversation it's come up?
00:03:48
Speaker
I must say I haven't, no. um All the vegans I know tend to be written to be really staunch, so I haven't come across it. The closest thing that I can relate to this is a good friend and colleague of mine in the vegan society was at a child's birthday party sometime back and was cutting the non-vegan children's birthday cake.
00:04:11
Speaker
and on the on the knife that she had used to cut the cake was a line of cream and she needed to clean that knife quickly to do something else with the knife so she wiped it off with her hand before she thought and then licked the cream off her hand to clean her hands so she could carry on catering to these boisterous hungry kids. Now something like that um how you're usual I never come across the situation that that in my life and what are you gonna do I mean it's it's it's it's you know I'm not gonna have a go with her she was sort of mentioning in quite a light-hearted jovial way it was funny you know it was a funny so the situation to be in anything to have done it wasn't done out of any sense of
00:04:51
Speaker
bad will or going against the vegan ethos you know so it's just one of the things but when a good quote i heard from a friend of mine involved in earth first over in the united states a long time ago and he said and when you're dealing with shit your hands sometimes get dirty and that is just the reality of the world we live in So, um whilst I would inform a friend of mine who regularly drinks milk that they shouldn't be doing that, I wouldn't say anything except laugh along at the story that this this colleague of mine said. So, it depends on the situation and and it should all be handled with
00:05:25
Speaker
a level of kindness and humanity and that it deserves. Yeah, slightly different example, I was probably only a couple weeks ago at work, I work with a couple of people who are vegan and ah normally our biscuits are always vegan and but we were we were given a pack that that did contain milk and most of the people on site ah aren't vegan and so you know we took the decision to to use them up if you like, but they looked remarkably similar. And one of my vegan colleagues literally had one in her hand and was like putting it to her mouth and I just shouted her name and I was like, it's not vegan. And like, she it it it pours just at the cusp of her of her mouth. And she she was very grateful actually. She said, oh, thank thank you for telling me. So yeah, I think I would similarly, um and in an instance where somebody simply doesn't know, then then then I'd go for it.
Social Pressure and Vegan Authenticity
00:06:22
Speaker
slightly different example then Julie I'm going to come to you for this one first you've got a co-worker that calls themselves vegan and you've you've talked about vegan things together and it seems like you're sort of aligned in that way and your your understanding of veganism is is the same but you've noticed that whenever birthday cake is offered round they will they will take a slice even though it doesn't seem like
00:06:46
Speaker
that those birthday cakes are vegan so it kind of seems like they're making a bit of an exception for birthday cake or when it's offered round what what do you think you'd do in that situation sorry i've given you the harder one there i know i know um Don't worry, ill I'll come to Mark too. When you were first describing this colleague, I was thinking, I would love a work colleague like that, one that was vegan, but actually when I talked to them, they turned out to be actually vegan, and rather than work colleagues who refer to themselves as vegan, and then I can hear them talking about things and I'm like, oh no. and so So somebody, and then they're eating the cake. If they are doing it
00:07:32
Speaker
um And I was in a situation when somebody, you know, in a work situation was offering stuff round and one of the people who says that they are a vegan said, I'm going to be naughty and I'm just going to let myself have a bit of this.
00:07:50
Speaker
then I just thought to myself, well, your definition of vegan and mine are different and, you know, obviously that's just the way you are and nothing I say is going to change anything about the thing. So I just ignore that person when they do things like that and I don't get hit up about it. I just think they've got their version and their mind It's different from what Donald Watson had in mind when he actually invented the word and his colleagues. But hey ho, some folk are just like that. They're just not quite the real deal and as human beings we are
00:08:34
Speaker
a bit hardwired. We're hardwired for connection, first of all. Our survival used to depend on it. So we are hardwired for connection. So that's the first thing and that's maybe why that person feels the peer pressure to join in with it. You know, workplaces can put people under an awful lot of pressure without you it really being spoken about. There's a lot of unspoken pressure on to conform and to be part of the team and to fit in and all the rest of it.
00:09:04
Speaker
um I kind of get that. So, yeah, but at the same time, we are also hardwired, I think, to be suspicious of inauthenticity and, and you know, in sort of things that are not genuine and people who are one thing and another at the same time and because there's a lack of, we can't trust, we don't know,
00:09:25
Speaker
where somebody stands on something, you know, if they switch sides in that way. And I think we are hardwired to reject what we would call hypocrites or people who say one thing do another. It makes us uncomfortable. And but it does make me mildly uncomfortable, but at the same time, if that person is knowingly ingesting non-vegan items,
00:09:50
Speaker
that have already been bought and paid for. You know, I mean, I am just going to turn a blind eye and just be judgmental in my own judgmental head, I think.
00:10:04
Speaker
That kind of almost passive involvement in animal abuse, I can slightly turn a blind eye to. However, if they were in a supermarket about to purchase those items,
00:10:20
Speaker
so therefore fueling that industry. You know, about to sort of actively be in, you know, a relationship of consuming and and creating a further demand for the cake and buying it, I think I would be saying something. But when it's already there and they're just having it one way or another, I just and roll my eyes inwardly and I can be as judgmental in bitching my own head as I like.
00:10:48
Speaker
I wouldn't necessarily say anything but yeah I would intervene I think if they were in the act of fueling the meat or dairy industry. Mark, would you deal with that one any differently? I think broadly I agree with Julie's take on this. and Food is a number of things all at once. it's It's a source of physical nourishment and it's often used as a form of social bonding.
00:11:14
Speaker
So while cake isn't food as such, let let's call it food in this situation, I can understand why someone who is generally a vegan would want to essentially succumb to the pressure of being part of the in-group and consuming the the tokenistic bit of slice of cake that's been passed around. It's a way of saying that you belong to this this gang, this tribe, this group. right It's a very powerful, very primal lizard brain need to be part of a group. Everyone has it. It's a greater or lesser degrees. And in this situation, cake is symbolic. It's not food for nourishment. It wouldn't nourish you anyway. It's cake. um It is a symbol. ah Unfortunately, it's a symbol produced through violence and misery.
00:12:08
Speaker
But to the people in the office, on the ground, on the day, at the time, with the cake in front of them, they just see momentary sensory pleasure and the spiritual slash psychological nourishment of feeling part of a group. It's a bonding exercise, actually, as I say, very, very primal, very necessary and very understandable. So if I see a vegan colleague of mine indulging in that from time to time, I'm not going to say a thing.
00:12:37
Speaker
But my own personal stance on this is if I was coming at this from a religious point of view, for instance, if I was Jewish or Muslim and wouldn't eat pork or something like that because of that, and if I expected that to be respected,
00:12:58
Speaker
by my colleagues because of a religious understanding, I would expect my colleagues my colleagues also to understand my refusal to partake in their symbolic dairy consumption out of a moralistic stance. If they can accept it for a religious stance, which I would reject because I find all religion nonsense but if that's good enough for my colleagues as a reason to not indulge then so was my animal rights stance. In fact my animal rights stance is much much better than the religious point of view on this. So if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander there. So I wouldn't allow people around me to reject my principles simply because they're not based on religious principles.
00:13:41
Speaker
i think you you raise an interesting point there mark in in that that the fact is the way that if if we ascribe a label for ourselves in this case vegan like the the the way that we behave and conduct ourselves or in our examples someone else is behaving with that label it can affect us but because the the sort of watching party it is is basing its assessment. I mean, I was told in a a pizza hut a few years ago that none of the carbonated drinks are suitable for vegans because one of them, they were coming out of one of these machines with like a shared nozzle. So you you you push the button and the appropriate one comes out.
00:14:23
Speaker
one of them wasn't I think it was like Fanta or something one of them wasn't vegan therefore none of them are and I was like I'm not sure I agree with that like as a moral stat like to me like yeah I might not like it but it's it's it's kind of like saying oh if you if you cook a burger in the same pan as that then it then it's not vegan it's like well that you know that that that's not how I would hold with those things so it's like That would make me barf. I wouldn't have a bargain at the same time. That's horrible. Yeah, i wouldn't I wouldn't be keen on it either. But I guess the point is that that the way that individuals in the group behave will affect all of the other individuals.
00:15:04
Speaker
in in that group in that community and I think that is a valid reason to raise something in terms of what what someone else is doing and saying or do you know what i'm I'm just saying that that did make me feel a bit uncomfortable because actually it might make me think that it might make other people think that it's okay for you to cook that burger in that pan or or whatever it is you know and actually that that's not cool with me. Oh yeah I mean there's no doubt about it. People who label themselves as vegan and then treat it as some kind of penance and say oh well I'm going to be a bit naughty or I'm going to just indulge or let my myself have this. They are definitely giving the entire wrong message about veganism and all the rest of it and I have
00:15:50
Speaker
people like that in my, I won't say where, but in my social groupings places and it makes me not even want to identify myself as a vegan in a sense alongside those people because there's no point because people will assume that my veganism looks like this other person's and it's some kind of deprivation and I can't have that because I'm vegan. I don't want that stuff because of how I feel about justice. You know, I am not living to a label. That label has been given to me because of what I believe in, but I'm not trying to behave to the label. The label follows my value system. I had the values before I had the label.
Community Expectations and Personal Experience
00:16:40
Speaker
Do you think there is an argument for authenticity here in in terms of, you know, in in, say, the example of the co-worker who's repeatedly choosing to take the non-vegan cake even though they know it's not vegan? Is is there an argument of of having a ah conversation at some point and just saying,
00:16:59
Speaker
do you know what it it kind of does affect me when when you're doing that because I i don't know it's really isolating like being a vegan in a non-vegan world and and actually when when you do that like it's it makes me feel even more isolated because I i thought we had like a ah shared thing and i'm I'm saying this and I'm hearing myself saying it and it sounds a bit self-pity. I wouldn't personally have that conversation with anybody but I do share that disappointment that sometimes when just supposing you go to great lengths perhaps to join a supposedly all vegan running club or you go to a vegan meetup
00:17:38
Speaker
you know, as some respite from our non-vegan world to mix with people who are of a similar mind, when you find people there who are either really wishy-washy or really self-centred and self-interested,
00:17:54
Speaker
or who are doing non-vegan things and unapologetically doing them or just not doing the due diligence on the things that they are consuming or approving of or whatever. It is disheartening because you've gone out your way to be in that group that is a minority group. It sometimes means you go out of your way, you know, not in a mainstream running club, in one that is separate, all the rest of it. it can be a bigger disappointment than if you just go out with a crowd of karnas. Do you know what you're getting with them? Yeah,
00:18:32
Speaker
yeah i I absolutely feel that way and like to, you know, we're we're both runners Julian and both part of vegan runners and I took a period away from being with vegan runners because it was too painful being with people that shared the same label but there was some dissonance there. and And in a sense, it was no more than if i I then went to join just my local running club. And in a sense, I got on with people just as well, just as badly there, but it kind of didn't, when it wasn't going so well, it didn't matter as much. Because it's like, oh, it's just my local running club. Like, of course, of course there are going to be people that I don't see eye to eye with. But it is painful when you you've kind of get yourself, you get your hopes up. And it's it's it's an understandable thing, isn't it? And I think,
00:19:18
Speaker
possibly taking it out on that person that's not living up to what we see as the right standards for veganism is probably not appropriate because actually if if what we're mainly feeling is is grief but for our own sort of lost opportunity at connection with somebody, that's not necessarily someone else's fault. um I mean, we could we could go down the line of actually your your behavior is is part of the oppression of animals and that's what's upsetting me.
00:19:47
Speaker
I think ive I reckon a lot of what we're feeling there and it's what is similar to what people vegans feel towards vegetarians it's like oh do you know what I feel isolated enough and I got my hopes up that we were on the same page. But it's a bit of both I think and that's what I try and do in a circumstance like that and because I had a recent time with somebody who was supporting something that was non-vegan and the ah kind of my front brain was just annoyed and then I thought no, no, let's just separate the sinner from the sin here and
00:20:26
Speaker
is It's the animal abuse that was upsetting me. It wasn't the person. It was the animal abuse that they were supporting that was upsetting me. Can you give can you give an example of of what it was? yeah Yes, and it was a vegan runner. And we we all have that vegan runner. Facebook friend, friend in real life, bit of both, or just somebody we see online, they are covered in vegan runner merchandise from head to foot. They have all of the outfit and the stickers and the patches and the everything and they are always
00:21:04
Speaker
up front and centre when there is a camera, their V signs are up, their tongue is out. They are absolutely, you know, that. And yet they will be running, for example. You know, this is a hypothetical thing. This person doesn't exactly exist. I'm kind of caricaturing. But then they are either supporting something online which is something that kills animals in some shape or form, or they're running for a charity that is known to research on animals. So, um I've been in those situations before.
00:21:48
Speaker
And I have not online and not in front of other people had the conversation and just said, did you know? So in a recent conversation, the person did not know at the time. But then having been told, not by me, some other people had done it before I got there online, they had taken the comments and the questions down.
00:22:18
Speaker
from the people who knew better about this medical charity and they had stuck with their decision to not only raise funds or seek to raise funds in their own right and support somebody who was participating in a sporting event to raise funds, but also encourage other people, other vegans, to do the same.
00:22:44
Speaker
So that was that was the bit where it crossed a line with me because I thought, well, if you choose to do something that supports animal abuse and you're doing it knowingly, you've just got quite screwed up principles and I'm just going to... is If you know what you're doing, there's nothing I can do about that. But you are in a position where you are encouraging other people to do the same and then taking down the comments of the people who know better that could you know dissuade the folk who might go, oh, there's a vegan runner saying let's support this, it must be okay. Maybe they found a way that it's not contributing to research on animals or you know something. There's a bit of a trust when a vegan runner is saying, come on everybody, could you know do you want to chip in for this? you You feel that it's a vegan thing, don't you, whether ah if they're a vegan runner?
00:23:30
Speaker
So, that was quite complicated and the person, as I say, loved the sinner, not the sin, the person, nothing against this person then said, because of someone very close to them having lost their life to this particular illness, they you know, he said, I care about animals but I care about people. So, therefore, I'm sticking with this, you know?
00:23:58
Speaker
I care about animals and I care about people. I will not be told otherwise. But to my mind, because I care about people, having research carried out on animals that memes them and makes them suffer and kills them is not going to help me in my grief over any loved one at all.
Grief and Vegan Principles
00:24:18
Speaker
It's not. You can't It just isn't. If I wanted to do something constructive about any condition that someone I love had died of, I would be supporting you know the animal research alternatives. That's what I would be going all over that.
00:24:39
Speaker
or i if there was a way that I could donate my tissues after the end of my life, which I've already done actually, you know, for that particular research into the illness, I would be all over that. I would be doing stuff like that. I'd be doing something peaceful and constructive because life is precious. I wouldn't be taking more lives. I wouldn't be causing more suffering because because I was suffering and I wouldn't be so sort of self-interested that I would think it's not okay for animals to suffer, but it's okay for them to suffer if it's my family member. That makes it okay because everyone's got family members usually or folk they love.
00:25:21
Speaker
So, does that make animal suffering okay? No, it really doesn't. There are answers to ways of coping with illnesses and conditions that are not about making animals suffer and die, thankfully, and that's what I would be supporting. difficult you've You've described really well there that that whole kind of process of of being in a position where you think you can inform somebody, you might be able to influence them, you might be able to to change a behavior or or things like that and in we do that in the hope that it will have an impact and very often it does you know you tell somebody oh did you know that that contains animal products oh no i didn't great thank you for telling me and sometimes like the instance you're talking about there it it doesn't go the way that you want it to but there is still a response to be had isn't there and i'm just wondering like mark if i can bring you in like
00:26:17
Speaker
if there were an instance where you'd tried to inform somebody, whether it's a close family member or or just ah someone you barely know, about something to do with animal rights, with them ascribing themselves the label vegan.
00:26:34
Speaker
but it doesn't go the way that you want it to. How how are you responding to that still? Because we like we do still need to look after ourselves. Yeah, I mean, I sort of totally get the whole feeling of being let down when people around you who claim they care for animals and claim to be vegan or or doing these things that that ah that don't quite gel and you do feel disappointed and once again sort of an outsider, right? You're outside of the mainstream because you're veganism and then you're outside of the vegan mainstream because you're quite what other people call strict about it. and It can be doubly isolating I think and quite damaging as well.
00:27:15
Speaker
ah Having said that it's important to understand that veganism. It's not a cult. It's not a religion people come to it Pretty much on their own they are prompted by outside forces and all that but they come to to this decision Usually on their own it isn't something that is done Initially at least to be part of a tribe. It's it's done to have a consistent moral compass I think so being challenged on that it's it's a whole your opening up a whole Pandora's box of human so psychology here, ah some people will respond to being informed about their behavior really well and very logically and very Dr Spock-like and it's not a problem. ah Most people I know, I think if if if I was to have a go with them about it, it just wouldn't end up well because
00:28:06
Speaker
I'd get too upset and then they'd get too, and it was just it would just draw, it would it would make a chasm really ah between me and the person. I'm not the best at calmly debating things with people who I think are on the wrong side of the issue. It just it it just didn't it it isn't my strength. I'm better at other stuff, so I'll sort of stick to the other stuff.
00:28:29
Speaker
there is a lot to be said for maintaining consistency in veganism blurring the lines does it disservice to the animals and also to other vegans because people who are passing around the cake will think that all the all the vegans are going to have a slice if one vegan is going to have a slice and if you aren't then you're standing out even more as i say and it's It can be very uncomfortable. we We are dealing with a messy situation here ah and I include humans in that. So there isn't any clear there's any clear answer. I would say the best thing to do would be to tailor it towards the individual as and when it might come up.
00:29:05
Speaker
as i say i think some people are a lot more receptive to information like that but really i think generally people would think would take it as a bit of a dismissal and it it generally wouldn't go well ah fortunately i've never had had to do it so i haven't got personal experience to draw on i'd imagine it's it's it's a can of worms yeah and i i think my take on on this would be like we we owe it to the animals to be as consistent as we can be and set the right standards. However, it's it's the actions of humans that are oppressing
Consistency in Vegan Messaging
00:29:40
Speaker
animals. And we have to bear in mind the very frail, fragile, irrational, unpredictable, sometimes inconsistent ah nature of of humans and and actually meter out some pragmatism with how far are we going to take each each relationship and and conversation.
00:30:01
Speaker
and actually in terms of people in my life that have gone vegan and since I've known them um and not known them as as a vegan initially, very often it's a standoffish approach like ah I'm living my life, I'm living my ideals, I will you know occasionally be advocating for animals and and saying, you know, why is I do things the way I do? And very often I sort of, ah we come into one another's life a few years later and, oh, lo and behold, they're vegan. And, ah you know, I'm sure I've been part of that. I'm sure I've not been all of that as well. But but similarly, I think that the whole kind of
00:30:38
Speaker
Model of consistency that we can put forward like by being the person that says do you know what I'm so happy it's your birthday have a lovely day goodness um I'm really really happy for you um and now you know I'm vegan so I'm I'm not gonna take a slice of cake like that that vegan who has chosen to take a slice of cake, they can still be influenced by that without you directly confronting them. um And maybe it'll take a bit of time. I've had blind spots. you know i I think I've mentioned on the show before but but for several years of being vegan, like ah I very happily accepted the woolly socks that my mum knitted for me. Again, it felt like that was more important, that sentiment was more important than
00:31:24
Speaker
than what sheep were going through in order for that wool to to be on my feet and very often when when you do stump up the courage to confront is possibly the wrong word but raise something very often as long as you've not knee jerked and gone for it straight away people are quite receptive so my mum was absolutely fine with it and was like yeah of course i'll find alternative like of course i think sometimes there is there is an argument for for confronting things in in the right way but also like it's we We can put our energy in lots of different places, can't we? You know, if if someone if someone is vegan apart from birthday cake, fine. That's not great. That's not vegan by my definition, but better that they keep at that and I'll put my energies somewhere else, you know? Agreed, yeah, yeah. My thing is that I can't stay silent because the animals don't have a voice. So I must admit I always, if I do look the other way and stay silent as I have done in the past, that's where my discomfort starts. And you know, so I think I probably have just got to a point in my life where I haven't bothered about the bonding
00:32:39
Speaker
and I won't be going anywhere near that cake and I don't care who hates on me for that or whatever, I'm really secure in my own self and I don't mind how outwith social circles I am or am perceived to be. I feel quite safe and comfortable the way I am, but what I am not safe and comfortable with is staying silent where animals have been abused. So I will always
00:33:14
Speaker
nowadays say something always always always but I'll be very choice with how I put it and how diplomatic I am and I'll choose my words really really carefully but I will never be silent for the animals ever that's my promise to them because they deserve nothing less from me really and i think that's really inspiring and a really important message for our listeners to hear and also like i i want our listeners who are you know a tad socially anxious or or people pleasey i'd definitely fall into the latter camp like there are still ways of raising things
00:33:57
Speaker
and trying to raise it in a way that also listens to that fear you've got of like oh but whatever everyone shouts at me like if you if if you do have that feeling of like oh gosh this feels too much you can just try it you can just say do you know what i mean this is a slightly different thing but would it be possible like the next meal we have together could could it all be could it all be plant-based could we just try it because like i just I'm finding it really hard like people eating meat around me. Could we just try it just once?
00:34:27
Speaker
and And you can you can say it, let's just try it once. Or you could try just one time that you say, like the next time this there's something non-vegan happening, I'm going to say something about it, or I'm going to challenge something. And it's just going to be this once. And if it feels horrible, and if it feels awful and the worst pain I've ever endured, then fine. Try try it in ah ah in a different way. If you're not feeling as as confident as as Julie is, and goodness, wouldn't it be great if we all did? Maybe one day we will.
00:34:57
Speaker
But like you you can play with these things. like it does it doesn't have to if If you want to be doing right by animals but you're not feeling the confidence, just you know pick a time and just try it. Maybe doing it online so you're not having to face somebody or that everyone's going to have different circumstances where it works better for them.
00:35:16
Speaker
um But yeah, give it a go. yet Yesterday, i I really had to put my foot down with something and it involved saying no to something. that It had the smallest amount of ghee on it, but this 10-year-old boy had like brought in his stuff. He'd made these flat breads. He he was so proud and he'd gone around the whole woodland that I work in, showing everyone, saying, would you like one? Would you like one? Would you like? And he he came to me and and I did hesitate. I was like, oh God, shall I just,
00:35:43
Speaker
And it's like, I'm really sorry, does does it have some of the gear on it? I'm not going to have that then. And he was like, Oh, that's okay. I'm going to make one now without Guy. That's fine. And it was great. That was such a learning experience for him. That was a total win-win there. Well done. Exactly. But it like, it really, you know, I've been vegan for what, 13, 14 years. Like I was still like, Oh God, this feels awful. Um, being try it. And if, if, if it feels, if it fails and feels awful, well fine, reevaluate, take, you know. I've found myself that, uh,
00:36:18
Speaker
ah when I was traveling around India for instance I spent about six months going around India and Nepal years and years ago and I was vegan then. And I remember it was easier for me to explain to people that I was a Buddhist and that I was avoiding whatever they were putting in front of me because I was a Buddhist rather than using any terms they didn't really understand really. And as soon as they understood it was coming from a religious point of view because it's such a religious place, it was no problem at all. It was a part for the course. they they They would do the same things around other foods.
00:36:51
Speaker
So it was easily understood as long as you drop in Buddhist or Taoist or something like that, that they can that they can have some sort of reference towards. you know and And then everything's fine. you know It's a bit of a lie, obviously, but ah it's sort of it it makes things a lot more understandable in certain parts of the world. Yeah. And actually, that that in a sense, the animals don't care how how we stop exploiting them. They just care that it stops happening.
00:37:17
Speaker
I think just keep thinking about the animals. Don't make it about the person. Don't make it personal. I think that just makes it so much easier if you just focus on that. Don't make it about you. Don't make it about the other person.
Aligning Actions with Non-Violence
00:37:33
Speaker
Just think about, you know, that the industry that is involved in whatever issue is under question here and think about what the animals are going through and that's your motivation. That's the thing you want to avoid. You're not trying to piss people off or be an outsider or be any of these things but
00:37:54
Speaker
Most people can relate to anybody's desire to be peaceful and in alignment with their values of, you know, non-violence and justice and kindness. So, you kind of just stick with that message. You know, you don't have to be down too much on the thing that's available. You just say, no, I choose to have something different, you know, because I like these things. You know, kind of put it in the positive, really, if if it's one of those situations.
00:38:22
Speaker
Wise words. Wise words.
Engagement and Feedback
00:38:26
Speaker
If you've enjoyed today's show we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too. We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free enough of the falafel joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player. That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
00:39:01
Speaker
Well thank you Mark and thank you Julie. I really enjoyed that conversation. I feel like we got to know one another better and yeah it's an interesting interesting topic that one and anything that's dipping your toe in what can feel like uncomfortable waters is it's definitely worth doing in the hypothetical and in there and the chatty sense first it can help us with the real life situations too can't it?
00:39:24
Speaker
thank you everyone listening we absolutely love hearing from you so if you've if we've said something today that you're like oh i'm not sure about that or you missed something there or a topic for a show or even if you just want to say i really like that episode the um the Last Going Vegan episode we had that Elena was on um a few days ago, we got loads of emails and contacts saying, oh, that was great. I really, really appreciated hearing conversation on that topic. Just get in touch with us. Our email address is enoughofthefallaful at gmail dot.com.
00:39:58
Speaker
And the next episode is coming out on Monday the 17th of February. It's a vegan week episode with aunt, Paul and Kate. And it's our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news. And that's enough for the falafel for this episode. Thanks Julie and Anthony for all your contributions.
00:40:24
Speaker
Thanks again everyone for listening. I've been Mark and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:40:36
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We hear just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplat.com and sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:41:17
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right Dominic, there's over a hundred episodes on there featuring a brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries and of course around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from