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157- RSPCA wants to ban cat cafes in the UK
96 Plays25 days ago
In the UK this week, the RSPCA and Cats Protection UK have publicly spoken out against cat cafes; the businesses where customers can pay for the privilege of sipping lattes alongside (generally) rescued cats. But how are Dominic, Julie & Ant feline about this, and the rest of the week's animal rights news?!
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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This week's stories:
https://plantbasednews.org/culture/sport/olympians-open-letter-plant-based-olympics/
https://www.freedomforanimals.org.uk/news/lancaster-bid-reindeer-win
https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/farming/revealed-norfolk-farms-breach-eco-rules-twice-a-week/#:~:text=Norfolk's%20factory%20farms%20break%20environmental,Will%20looser%20regulations%20worsen%20pollution%3F&text=New%20figures%20have%20revealed%20that,environmental%20rules%20twice%20a%20week.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/what-makes-a-sustainable-dairy-farm-survey-results
https://news.sky.com/story/cat-cafes-should-be-phased-out-rspca-warns-13331963
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/savage-cat-food-recall-bird-flu-b2716999.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/18/mexico-city-bloodless-bullfights
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czrn4p2k30xo
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Julie & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction and Setting the Stage
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello are everybody! Welcome to your one-stop shop for this week's vegan and animal rights news. I'm Dominic and joining me for this episode are Julie and Anthony, but that is it enough of the falafel.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's time for Vegan Week.
Do Vegans Seek Out Trouble?
00:00:19
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr!
Exploring 'Enough of the Falafel' Shows
00:00:25
Speaker
protein take your lab grown meat elsewhere we're not doing that in the state of florida your protein and what about your iron levels should i call the media and say hi sorry they're arguing like oh poor woe is me oh no hang on a minute you always pick the
00:00:46
Speaker
social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:01
Speaker
No I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello everybody Julie here. Thank you for joining us. Welcome to today's show.
00:01:14
Speaker
Hello everyone, this is Anthony. If this is your first time with us, this is our new show. We do a few different shows here at Enough of the Falafel. This is the one where we run through the week's vegan and animal rights news. We also do a vegan talk show where we get a bit more philosophical about one subject in particular. But if you're here today, it's here for the news. That is Enough of the Falafel though.
00:01:36
Speaker
Let's hear what has been going on in the news this week.
Athletes Advocate for Plant-Based Olympics
00:01:43
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode, available on your podcast player.
00:01:53
Speaker
How exciting, how exciting. So this is my first time hosting in Off The Falafel. Usually it's our man Anthony who's the guy in the driving seat. But I'm thrilled to be asking Julie and Anthony about their stories this week as I am the master of ceremonies. We're going to begin with... I know, exciting, right? Exciting. We're going to this week's episode with a story that just broke as we were recording last week, so we only missed it by a few hours.
00:02:24
Speaker
A group of Olympians and other top athletes have signed an open letter calling for 2028's LA-based Olympic Games to be entirely plant-based.
00:02:37
Speaker
Signatures include, now you're going to have to forgive me for pronunciations of all different people's names, the Olympic weightlifter Kendrick J. Farris.
00:02:48
Speaker
I reckon it's Farris. Olympic rock climber Alexander Megos, Olympic weightlifter Angeline Bertha, Olympic road cyclist Simon Gershek, and Paralympic swimmer Sarah Bufinger.
00:03:04
Speaker
And I really apologize to all of them. I've said every single one of their names incorrectly. Other top athletes, such as francis France's strongest woman, Anjali Berva, and vegan strongman, Patrick Baboumian, also signed the open letter.
00:03:20
Speaker
Kendrick Farris has said, as a vegan athlete, I've experienced how plant-based lifestyle not only fuels peak performance, but also aligns with a vision of sustainability and compassion.
00:03:33
Speaker
The open letter is addressed to the LA28 CEO Raymond Hoover and begins by thanking him for his commitment to an eco-friendly approach to the next Olympic Games.
Plant-Based vs Vegan: Olympic Terminology
00:03:43
Speaker
The letter notes that the 2024 Games in Paris set a strong precedent by making 60% of its meals vegan However, it also suggests that l LA can do even better in hosting the Olympics in 2028.
00:04:02
Speaker
Advocating for a vegan Olympics in l LA is a powerful statement about our collective responsibility to protect the planet and promote a kinder, healthier future.
00:04:13
Speaker
Farris has said. Together, we can show the world that greatness thrives on compassion. The open letter was organised by Jenny Karnam, the Director of Outreach and Engagement in the non-profit Animal Outlook.
00:04:27
Speaker
Julie, ah West Hollywood have already announced plant-based food by default at all their council-run events last year. Can you, Julie, see this extending to the Olympics in four years' time?
00:04:40
Speaker
Well, I don't see why not. It's not that difficult to do, as we know. First of all, shout out to Animal Outlook for being so organised and getting on this right now.
00:04:53
Speaker
Because if you look at the website for LA28, which we will call it for short, they haven't even recruited the members of staff that they need. to do the catering and to do the build the platform where they measure their carbon footprint and you know their sustainability goals to check that they're getting met and all the rest of it. They haven't even recruited yet. So this is the time to catch them and to persuade them, not once these positions are filled and they've got their ideas already sort of you know in place.
00:05:27
Speaker
So yes, what I would ask though is that Hopefully people will call it plant-based because that is all it's going to be. It is not going to be a vegan Olympics.
00:05:39
Speaker
I would love it to be a vegan Olympics, but it's not going to be because although our prayers have been answered in that the modern pentathlon, this coming Olympics in 2028, is doing away with the show jumping part of it where the riders got on to horses they didn't know and hashed them around a show jumping ring like Annika Schloy you know that beat up that horse saint boy and all the rest of it a partly because of that they have banned horses from being you know an equestrian part of the modern modern pentathlon so the folk are just going to run about going over obstacles doing an obstacle race that's what we want that's That's what we want.
00:06:27
Speaker
So, but unfortunately, show jumping, dressage and eventing are still going to be part of those Olympics. So there's no way can we call them vegan, even if the food is entirely plant based.
00:06:39
Speaker
It's not vegan.
Challenges Facing UK Dairy Farmers
00:06:41
Speaker
Correct to anybody who says that. And there will be leather and there will be animal skins and there will be all kinds of things going on. and But yes, a plant-based thing and menu makes a huge amount of sense.
00:06:55
Speaker
It'll make even more sense by 2028, let's hope, as well. But they need to be getting on the case now and I think it would be lovely if they took heed of this you know very well-composed and well-done open letter.
00:07:12
Speaker
And when they're doing their recruiting, they, you know, got some people on board who are nice kind of progressive people. The Olympic Games is all about justice. I was reading about their values on their website today.
00:07:25
Speaker
Being plant-based is totally in alignment with the things that they say they're all about. Definitely. And I think you're right, Julie, that using the correct terminology really matters because ah people who are approaching veganism, who come off with a sort of anti-vegan attitude, I think our own clarity really, really matters. We don't have to be antagonistic in saying...
00:07:49
Speaker
Well, this is a plant-based thing. Am I correct, Dan? We've done a show, haven't we, on the the the wording of different things. Does it matter referring to things vegan or plant-based? Or am I dreaming that? No, no, it's a recurring... Is that a dream? It's a recurring theme.
00:08:05
Speaker
um We also covered the initial announcement that the Paris 24 Olympics was going to have this 60% plant-based menu, as well as um shortly after the Games, where it was revealed that whilst 60% of the things listed...
00:08:19
Speaker
were actually in terms of what people ordered and what you know the ingredients that were ordered in it was um it was far from it because of course you can if if you list at least one meaty option if people want meat that you know a good chunk of them are are going to go for that but you know you can only do what you can do I suppose and we're probably a Well, if they made it completely plant-based, then people wouldn't have the option, would they?
00:08:44
Speaker
But it's great it's great this is even being discussed. Like I was thinking back to the 2012 Olympics in in London. but There's no way people would even suggest this. So great. It even feels like a palatable thing for Animal Outlook to do.
00:08:57
Speaker
And there is a campaign going to get equestrianism right out of the Olympics as well. And, it you know, it is worth supporting, a definitely, if you're interested in doing that. Thank you, Julie. Fantastic. Well, let's move on to our next story. Going to get a bit controversial. Normally, we get some news each week from Farming UK.
00:09:19
Speaker
But this week, we are bucking the trend and taking a story from their rival, Farmers Weekly. Ha ah Shock, horror. So there is an exclusive survey that has revealed the biggest challenge for the UK's dairy farmers.
00:09:35
Speaker
Is their biggest challenge vegans? No, apparently not. Apparently, it's uncertainty about future investment in infrastructure and meeting potential new legislation.
00:09:49
Speaker
The survey drew responses from nearly 400 UK dairy farmers. Surprisingly low on the list was inheritance tax, climate change and the public perception of dairy farming.
00:10:03
Speaker
Interestingly, milk price was deliberately not included as an option for farmers to choose. So the biggest challenges facing the sustainability of farmers' businesses were at 61% investment to meet legislation or infrastructure, then at 40% staff recruitment or retention, then at 35% was issues with costs, rent or finance. is the third most commonly cited issue.
00:10:33
Speaker
So, Ant, no real animal welfare or environmental concerns from those in animal agriculture, it seems. No, and actually, if you follow the link in the show notes and read this article, it it it it reads like an article that's kind of going to go, oh, surprisingly, the environment and and the perception of dairy farming, like isn't a thing you'd kind of think that they maybe are going to visit that at some point in the article. It's just not mentioned at all. It's like put in there as like a little click-baity thing at the top.
00:11:03
Speaker
And then the rest of it is this very thorough survey. I mean, you know, credit to Farmers Weekly. They have done their due diligence here. I read through this and I think occasionally it's...
00:11:14
Speaker
it's beneficial for those of us who believe in animal rights and a a vegan to, to kind of educate ourselves on what,
Victory Against Reindeer Events
00:11:22
Speaker
what those people go through and and what their life is like, you know, when they are steeped animal lag or maybe, you know,
00:11:30
Speaker
Julie's mentioned equestrianism, you know, whether it's sports that involve animals to kind of become a bit well versed with it. Maybe not all the time, it might become a bit dry. But i what struck me reading through the whole of this survey is just how unviable the whole practice is. Like all of the answers that that people were giving pretty much were basically saying this industry isn't really viable. So it was financial concerns or infrastructure concerns or oh gosh, we'rere we're trying to manage people, but we don't really know how to manage people. like We're we're but farmers, like we're not you know we're not necessarily um people managers or or whatever. And I just thought, if you and and know think of an industry that's thriving at the moment, let's say tech, what are the biggest threats to the tech industry at the moment?
00:12:18
Speaker
I don't think they'd say investment in infrastructure or things like that. Interestingly, in this survey, the the the main question they were asking farmers, like, what are you most concerned about?
00:12:29
Speaker
They said, what are you most concerned about? Apart from the price of milk, of course, because it was kind of like, well, obviously that is going to be the biggest thing. So again, like the biggest concern, the elephant in the room that is such an elephant in the room, they're not even going to include it in the survey is the fact that they can't put out a palatable price.
00:12:48
Speaker
for their unpalatable product. So, I mean, of course it's tough for for for people who this has you know been in their family for generations and it's a way of life that they're used to, um but really it did feel like the the writing is is on the wall for it um in that all these concerns were were things that were just saying basically,
00:13:08
Speaker
It's not financially viable. we're not We're not cut out for this. We can't keep this up. um It must be really frightening for them. um And I kind of, in the nicest possible way, hope it is quite frightening because it'd be rather good if it stopped, wouldn't it?
00:13:23
Speaker
It would be very good if it stopped. What's your view, Julie? Do you think, is this a story for us vegans to take heart from? What's your opinion? Well, yeah, I think we knew already that the dairy industry is, you know, on its knees and it's getting propped up.
00:13:40
Speaker
And that's the only thing that is helping it to survive. and So yeah, I think this is kind of, it's not big news to me. It is disappointing, obviously, that the elephant in the room doesn't ever get mentioned at all.
00:13:58
Speaker
am But yeah... yeah You mentioned not learning something new, Julie. I learned something new from this article. I had not come across the term sexed semen before, oh oh yeah wait yeah which was listed as um the most commonly cited way of improving sustainability.
00:14:17
Speaker
And I looked it up and I was like, hang on, does this mean what I think it means? And basically, sexed semen is is a way of taking the bull's semen and giving yourself a much higher chance that that results in a ah female calf being born. Yeah, like they've done the eggs a little bit. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah.
00:14:37
Speaker
But I thought that was interesting that that was put forward as a, oh, this is a sustainability thing. ah chris I'd be like, well, if you've got an and industry that's predicated on not producing boys, like surely the biggest thing of being able to make a female be born is that you're not just killing all the boys.
00:14:54
Speaker
um I mean, obviously it's ethically all over anyway. Well, do you know what? If I was able to pass a law that wasn't just outright, just let's stop doing this because it doesn't make any sense at all, the law I would pass is, and it wouldn't be too far away from, I think some laws we've already got, but I don't know, but is it not against the law or am I imagining this to be fiddling about with animals in that kind of sexual and reproductive sense anyway? Yeah.
00:15:21
Speaker
I would just do away with any of that fiddling. If you can't breed cows naturally, if you're having to do it to the volumes, that means that you have to be doing stuff to bulls by hand and posting semen here, there and everywhere.
00:15:38
Speaker
Let's just not do that because what you're doing then is a human is interacting sexually with a beast. i why Do know what I mean? I think just get rid of that.
00:15:50
Speaker
And that'll help the dairy industry just scale down ah drastically right away. I would just get rid of that. Let's not make bestiality cases out of our farmers. That mustn't be a nice job for anybody.
00:16:04
Speaker
and Let's stop all that. But anyway, that's a bit of a side note. But just when you're talking about sex semen, I think they should just not get their hands on that stuff at all. oh I think they should lay off. We covered a couple of months ago awful abuse that was happening. that boar farm, I know. I know that was awful. And i oh I'm sure a big part of that is the fact that the poor people working there, what is your self-esteem when that is your job, jacking off a pig? It's not what you say to the careers officer when you're thinking leaving school.
00:16:35
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, i would just I would get all of that out of the dairy industry. um So never mind sex, semen or whatever, get your hands off that stuff. Well said, Julie. Well said.
00:16:48
Speaker
Moving on to our next story.
The Cat Cafe Controversy
00:16:50
Speaker
Late last year, we reported on a brilliant grassroots animal rights group, and that is Lancaster Animal Protection, like LAP.
00:17:02
Speaker
They were opposing Lancaster Business Improvement District's annual Reindeer Day. The event saw reindeer transported 300 miles from Kemgore National Park to be exhibited in a busy shopping arcade.
00:17:19
Speaker
Well, now we can report, courtesy freedomforanimals.org, that there will be no Reindeer Day in Lancaster in 2025. Freedom for Animals are now building momentum with their annual campaigns to oppose reindeer events.
00:17:38
Speaker
Last year they successfully opposed planning applications for two reindeer farm attractions and saw 43 events that we had written to about their use of reindeer in 2023. Choose to be Reindeer Free in 2024.
00:17:53
Speaker
They thank public support as well as their colleagues at One Kind Animal Aid, Born Free Foundation, North East Animal Rights, as well as thousands of individuals across the country who have contributed their campaign actions.
00:18:10
Speaker
Well, Julie... what a positive story, eh? Yes, absolutely. It gives us a lot of hope. It just shows how even small organisations, when they're helped out by bigger ones, what they can do and how quickly a situation can be turned around like that.
00:18:28
Speaker
And I take heart as well because there are probably lots of people out there who feel like, you know, slaughtering animals for food is morally wrong, but they probably haven't even given a thought to reindeer standing in the street.
00:18:46
Speaker
at Christmas time with kiddies going oh cute and patting them they probably don't really see the harms in that because actually the harms in that are not shown to us because we don't get to see how these animals have been living the rest of the year and we don't know much a most of us about their natural habitat and how unnatural their lives have been forced to become and we don't see the how they're transported and the journeys they've had to make and all the rest of it and how short their lives are because of the stress they're put under.
00:19:20
Speaker
I must admit as a As a sheep mum rescuer person now, I have more understanding of these little prey animal, ruminant animals lifestyles and what makes them thrive and what does not.
00:19:36
Speaker
And now my heart breaks over reindeers' where I don't think I would have had the same understanding. But I think if people are getting this, which they are, it will really help them to question other places where animals are used and exploited against their kind of natural instincts and lifestyles and health and well-being.
00:20:02
Speaker
Because once you get it with one animal, you see it in other places as well and you question things. So I'm delighted about this. and I'm a big fan of Freedom for Animals.
00:20:13
Speaker
If you haven't heard of them, they are UK animal charity. They've been going for ages, 1957. They are based in Manchester, and they do loads of good stuff. They don't make a big noise about it. They don't have the profile that PETA has got, but they do loads of good stuff.
00:20:31
Speaker
Currently, they've got a petition going against animals in circuses and because you can't have... and wild animals in circuses in the UK but you can have domestic animals getting mistreated and abused and all the rest and remember that if you see these animals performing it doesn't matter how calm and willing they look you haven't seen what the training has been like to make them be that way you know so Yeah, Freedom for Animals, shout out to you and Lancaster Animal Protection, very well done.
00:21:05
Speaker
And thank you to everybody who signed that petition because we we did a wee action call on the show. ah um So thank you to everyone listening who signed that petition. You've made a difference.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah, very much so. And what a great reminder that this kind of activism can have really positive results. Well, moving to the next story, this week, the RSPCA and the Cats Protection UK have stated that cat cafes across the UK should be phased out.
00:21:41
Speaker
For listeners who aren't aware, such businesses which allow customers to interact with cats and even adopt them in the context of the cafe environment.
00:21:52
Speaker
ah The charity says that the cafe environment makes it almost impossible to meet the welfare needs of the cats. Shock horror, shock horror, like any vegan is going to be surprised by by that.
00:22:04
Speaker
um The cats can be really stressed by the forced proximity to other animals and of course to the strange people. An RSPCA spokesperson said generally cats are not very sociable and many felines often prefer to live without even other cats or prefer to form social groups with their own relations.
00:22:25
Speaker
There are currently more than 30 cat cafes licensed in England with about 44% of those licenses issued in the past financial year. Both charities believe that more cat cafes may be operating without oversight or regulation due to the unclear legislation.
00:22:46
Speaker
The RSPCA and Cats Protection says refusing to issue new licences and not renewing the old ones would ensure these cafes are gradually phased out.
00:22:58
Speaker
So Ant, for once, it's not just the vegans who are spoiling everyone's fun. What do you make of this story? Yeah, yeah you're absolutely right. It's not the vegans. um The RSPCA and Cats Protection UK are not vegan organisations.
Animal Welfare Awareness by Non-Vegan Groups
00:23:11
Speaker
They're not claiming to be.
00:23:13
Speaker
um But I think, we you know, we've... levelled, I think, fair critique. um particularly at the RSPCA on this show several times. um And I think this is an example of them doing what but maybe they are set up to do.
00:23:28
Speaker
um and actually, they you rightly said, Dom, like ah you know our our listenership, who are predominantly vegan, um if you are living a vegan lifestyle and and following that philosophy, then you're not going to be behind a cat cafe, I would imagine.
00:23:45
Speaker
um i think certainly if you've been to one and you drill down into what is intrinsically part of them. You're not. However, most of the population aren't vegan. And most of the population, I would have thought, have got a fair amount of respect for the RSPCA. So for them to... And and Cats Protection UK too. So for them to come out and make this statement, I'm sure there'll be several people that um that they will have lost by saying this. Several people will have gone, oh, well, I always respected the RSPCA, but they're saying that my local cat cafe, that's lovely. I've met the owner and the cats are lovely. And some of them get adopted. Like, you know, why are they coming down on this?
00:24:25
Speaker
um And i I think good for them for but for reaching out. It's it's fascinating. i mean, I've never lived with a cat. ah There are far more expert people than me on cats, but I was doing a bit of research on it.
00:24:37
Speaker
And one thing, um I think it was in this article, it might have been somewhere else, they were saying that often when cats are stressed, they will pretend to be asleep. So you might go into a place like this and think, oh, those cats look really chilled out. Well, actually, they could just be completely faking. It's similar to you see a birthday card with a picture of a chimpanzee and it looks smiling. Actually, teeth grimacing in a great ape is like a fear response. So, you know, we can't anthropomorphise.
00:25:04
Speaker
these these animals to to assume what they're feeling and I think that that's one of the main issues with cat cafes isn't It it it did also make me remember, do you remember about 10-15 years ago there were these and there was a spate of these little pop-up shops where you could go in you could put your feet in a bowl of water and these little fish would eat all the dead skin off your feet and everyone thought it was brilliant. They're all like vape stores now or you know whatever the latest thing ah But like for a period, like every town had at least one of these. And then people realize that actually you can get hepatitis so or whatever. and then And they all shut. And that this whole thing of, you know, 44% of the cat cafe licenses have been issued in the past financial year. This is clearly a trend, a craze like bubble tea or vape stores or whatever.
00:25:55
Speaker
And, yeah, that's a shame if you've got on board that that gravy train and thought, oh, this is brilliant, I'll do a cat cafe. um But actually, and if it becomes a thing that you can't do anymore, well, that kind of is tough.
00:26:09
Speaker
You know, yeah you're not owed a living by doing this. And actually, if it's wrong, it's wrong. And... I do have sympathy with people that feel like they're doing it for right reasons. We mentioned last week, like um we were were talking about a dolphin park that had been shut down. I think a lot of people who work closely with animals in zoos, dolphin parks or whatever, they will be animal lovers and they'll think that they're doing a good thing.
00:26:34
Speaker
But perhaps it requires slightly more enlightened thinking to shine a light on these things and redirect people's best intentions so that they actually meet the best needs of the animals perhaps. Very much so Ant.
00:26:48
Speaker
Julie do you think if people see ah non-vegan group like yeah Cats Protection or ah RSPCA yeah ah talking about the welfare of the cats behind the scenes, do you think that has the potential to do the same as challenging the reindeers and the reindeer entertainment? Do you think that this could be a positive thing for thinking about what happens to animals behind the scenes in places like circuses and stuff? Or do you think the differentiation between animals
00:27:20
Speaker
pet animals and non-pet animals is too great for people to draw ah similarity between the treatment of cats and cats cafes and the treatment of animals in circuses and farms and other environments.
Terminology in Vegan and Plant-Based Spaces
00:27:36
Speaker
I think it'll work for some people and I think other people it might just make them dig in and defend their position which is oh but the cats you know their cats are different cats need humans and they need to you know patting and cuddling and you know little games of things and I think that, you know, some people who just have that story in their head, I don't know much will change that.
00:28:06
Speaker
But I think there will be other people who go, oh, I hadn't really thought about it, but actually, you know, maybe this is right. But I think for me, obviously, as a vegan, any situation where an animal is put in a position where it's there for human gratification and it's got nothing to do with its own needs or interests is absolutely you know out of bounds.
00:28:30
Speaker
And I think there'll be people on a spectrum All the way along there, you know, either approving or disapproving. Because there'll be some people that say, well, it's okay if the cats are really well looked after and it's okay if they wouldn't have another home, they'd be in a cat home otherwise with some less hospitable setting or...
00:28:52
Speaker
something like that or they might say well it's okay if the owners tell you that if the cat doesn't want to talk to you just let it be and you let it jump off your lap and walk away or you know i mean there'll be people trying to kind of water it down or make it okay but so yeah I think that you won't get a unified answer on this but people in general in my experience are very attached to fluffy animals reaching out and grabbing them whether they like or not. i
00:29:26
Speaker
I used to have two rescue cats in my home who were unbearably cute and extremely fluffy And they were grabbed continually by complete strangers just walking past my house. if one of them was in the garden, I could see, you know, the hands coming at them.
00:29:48
Speaker
So, yeah. ah just wanted to very quickly just call back to um what we were saying earlier about how important terminology is. um There was hailed about 18 months ago, UK's first vegan cat cafe,
00:30:03
Speaker
um Great name, the Canterbury Tales. Everything I can't be on board with. And they got a lot of backlash from vegans saying this is not a vegan thing to do, blah, blah. I've been on their website when researching for this story and nowhere now do they say that. that they are vegan. They do say that they're plant-based, their menu is fully plant-based, still not, you know, behind it, still don't think it's a good idea. Obviously it's doing slightly less damage than, than one that's serving up cow secretions and, and animal flesh.
Environmental Breaches by Factory Farms
00:30:35
Speaker
But just that, that whole thing about kind of being anal and saying, no, no, you're not vegan, you're plant-based or whatever.
00:30:42
Speaker
Like it, it, it, does make it does make the point and it can make a difference and obviously there's ways of doing it i don't ever agree and you know yelling at someone or or giving them death threats or anything like that but actually just calmly pointing out actually you need to change your terminology there um and it can make a difference and stop misconceptions happening because i think that's what would have happened and possibly was happening initially with this canterbury tales place is people saying oh vegans think it's okay well no no no some people who've chosen to put a plant-based menu at their cat cafe, think it's okay. And there's a big difference.
00:31:17
Speaker
There is. Although I do also approve of the poetic name. Absolutely. Different business. All right. Now to a story from a not-for-profit citizen journalism publication, East Anglian Bylines.
00:31:33
Speaker
Bylines, sorry. ah They say that new figures have revealed that factory farms in East Anglia are caught breaking environmental rules. twice a week. Data obtained through Freedom of Information requests shows that there have been 776 reported breaches of environmental rules at the industrial scale sites since 2017.
00:31:59
Speaker
The findings have led eco groups to call for tougher regulations to help protect wildlife and the environment. However, it comes amid government plans to overhaul planning systems to make it easier for farmers to build infrastructures to boost food production.
00:32:17
Speaker
This has sparked fears that loosening of regulations could lead to more pollution incidents. So what is it that has been breached? Operators of farms with places for at least 40,000 birds, 2,000 pigs and 750 sows must obtain an intensive farming permit from the Environment Agency.
00:32:42
Speaker
These provide strict guidelines for companies to follow, which can result in prosecution if the rules have been breached. however Between 2022 and 2024, there were more than 130 incidents at 57 farms that breached permits in Norfolk.
00:33:02
Speaker
Of these breaches, just one farmer has been prosecuted. the same time twenty four reports of his At the same time, 24 reports have resulted in official warnings given to operators.
00:33:16
Speaker
Two have received formal cautions, whilst 94 have received advice and guidance. So, Julie, ah dodgy practices, left, right and centre. What are the impacts on the animals here?
00:33:30
Speaker
Well, you can't do or provide information any worse an impact on any animal than raising in a factory farm. Whatever you do with a waste, that is fact.
00:33:45
Speaker
Factory farms caught breaking environmental rules twice a week. Only twice! but The rules must be very slack. I think, really, they're probably breaking environmental rules every second of every day.
00:34:00
Speaker
When you think about it You know, any food production system needs a surplus to meet demand because you don't know what demand is. So there's always going to be surplus, isn't there?
00:34:12
Speaker
And when you are talking about sentient beings who are pooping... And when you're raising them in those mind-blowing numbers, that is just an unmanageable amount of poop to be going into the world.
00:34:31
Speaker
Totally unnecessarily, absolutely ridiculous. I would like to see everybody who eats the dead bodies of little hens on a regular basis.
00:34:43
Speaker
I would like to see the equivalent amount of poop that the chickens that they've consumed dumped in their living room on a regular basis and then see how much chicken they want to continue buying.
00:34:55
Speaker
But i our lovely Kate, who is a fellow presenter on the show, passed on a little news story the other day, a high court ruling that mega farms in, I think it was Hereford area, you know, the the catchment area of the Wye River is big because it's very long river, but I'm pretty sure it was Herefordshire in England.
00:35:21
Speaker
they will have to deal with chicken manure as if it was industrial waste, which unfortunately it is really because chickens are used as just products, aren't they?
00:35:35
Speaker
So that has implications for industrial chicken chicken units all over the country. because they have to be extremely careful where they dispose of this stuff. But there's just nowhere to put that volume and the type of substance that you're talking about as well.
00:35:55
Speaker
So I'm glad this topic is coming to light because I don't think people necessarily who buy dead chickens to eat think about that and think about all the pollution that that foodstuff is causing if they are trying to improve the infrastructure for growing food well for for in producing food that was the word producing food absolutely brilliant let's use those sheds for growing mushrooms and
00:36:26
Speaker
and Because mushrooms don't poop. They live on poop. But we don't need all the poop that the chickens are doing. Absolutely not. We're going to run out of places for it to go if we haven't already.
00:36:38
Speaker
So we Out of all of the animal exploitation and slaughter sources out there, I think factory farming is probably the biggest one.
00:36:50
Speaker
And that's the one where when any of us are doing outreach, we could have a really big impact, just really never letting up on the message that it's a supply and demand world we live in. So if people could just lay off that stuff, that would make a huge difference.
Bird Flu Risk in Cat Food
00:37:10
Speaker
really I agree, Julie. And it's, ah again, a theme of today's show is being precise about language and a way in which I'm precise about language when people talk about, oh, well, I don't buy from factory farms. I i only go to my uncle who only has three chickens and I only eat one's eggs.
00:37:32
Speaker
That's That's an area which I do get precise. I go, oh, really? So you would never have someone's birthday cake if it wasn't a vegan birthday cake, because that's not your uncle's eggs, is it? From his three chickens going in like all the supermarkets of Tesco's and Aldi, is it?
00:37:49
Speaker
So yeah, quite right, quite right. Here's morar ah more to the poop-grown mushrooms. so If ever I form a yeah an indie rock band, I shall call us the poop-grown mushrooms, June.
00:38:03
Speaker
That's going to be... All right, all right. A lot of our stories are from the UK, but we're going to go to the US now. ah Savage Pet is the latest cat food brand to recall some of its products due to the possibility that it's contaminated with bird flu.
00:38:24
Speaker
The United States Food and Drug Administration, FDA, announced a recall of large and small boxes of Savage Pets raw chicken cat food. The FDA warned those who may have purchased the affected cat food to not feed it to their pets or donate it, but instead return it to the retailer in exchange for a refund.
00:38:46
Speaker
Customers who may have fed the food to their cats should look out for any symptoms of bird flu, also known as highly pathogenic avian influenza, HPA1.
00:38:58
Speaker
Symptoms of bird flu can include fever, lethargy, low appetite, reddened or inflamed eyes, discharge from the eyes and nose, difficulty breathing, and neurological signs such as tremors, stiff body movement, seizure, lack of coordination or blindness, according to the FDA. yeah The news of Savage Pets Recall comes after Wild Coast LLCA, DBA, Wild Coast Raw announced a recall on its frozen boneless free range chicken formula raw pet food for cats, also over the possibility of it being contaminated with bird flu.
00:39:36
Speaker
Cats were already known to be susceptible to this virus with several feline cases linked to poultry or wild bird exposure before the outbreak in cattle began. And what do we make of all of this?
00:39:51
Speaker
Well, I think stories like this can evoke different reactions from from different people. i Sometimes i I see things like this being shared by um vegan friends on Facebook and there seems to be like a bit of glee there as well. um ah try not to be one for schadenfreude but i do and i do understand it in a non-vegan world um i think there's i mean first of all savage cat food i mean they've named that right haven't they bloody hell like it's not only of beings lost their lives to produce it but it's laced with a potentially pandemic causing um virus so uh goodness me how uh how fitting that name is i think
00:40:34
Speaker
but we have to try and get to people who aren't yet vegan in, in, in any way we can get that message through. And some people are besotted with their companion animals and they will see them as pets that they can get to do whatever they want for them blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:40:50
Speaker
Um, and, maybe this could be a way that people could see, oh, do you know what? Zoonotic diseases, they're a scary thing. How do zoonotic diseases come about? Oh, I see. It's probably a stretch. it's It's probably like all marketing, all these things cumulatively make an impact. i'm I'm sure no person that lives at home with a cat is going to see this and then completely just go vegan overnight. But it all adds to the the body of evidence, doesn't it? And it's another unfortunate, another sign of of why we should be very, very worried about avian flu. It seems like cats are really, really affected by this. um
00:41:30
Speaker
There's a lot of complacency amongst human animals at the moment that, oh, no, no, no humans have really been affected. It's fine. Well, that's not quite true. And just give it time. It doesn't need to mutate much more um before we start to suffer, I'm sure.
Transition to 'Pick of the Week'
00:41:44
Speaker
and But cats can die from from bird flu. So it's you know it's it's very serious for the cute and fluffy animals as well as ah birds, who very often people don't really consider to be animals or sentient, you know how wrong they are, but very often they're overlooked, aren't they?
00:42:03
Speaker
And yeah, I guess another message to come from this is the fact that the cats don't need to eat dead birds. They don't need to. I know it's in their behaviour too. don't want to spend too much more time on the Canterbury Tales plant-based cat cafe, but that is one myth that they yeah ah didn't dispel in their FAQ section. They did say, oh, cats are obligate carnivores. They have to eat meat. Well, we know that that's not the case, actually. Do your research.
00:42:29
Speaker
But they you know if you live at home with a cat companion animal, it doesn't have to eat meat. meet as far as I am aware and as far as research has pointed out. So that's another message that can come through with this. But um no, I'm feeling no schadenfreude at this. It's a terribly sad thing.
00:42:47
Speaker
And my only hope is that there can be a little silver lining that it can be a bit of an education piece. it's Yeah, definitely no schadenfreude and, you know, a really sad story and a really troubling thing.
00:43:00
Speaker
I do think that it's alarming when I go into schools and I'm meeting children through the work I do with school visits, how often children have just got no idea where food comes from, what's inside packaging and no schadenfreude. But good to remind people of that there are ingredients and the ingredients don't just appear within a can or a sachet or a packet, they are from a place. So yeah, like let let's let's hope that this has a... yeah
00:43:35
Speaker
a positive impact, as we always hope, as we always hope. um So listeners, we are ah running through our different stories. As mentioned earlier, this is my first time hosting. What an exciting thing for me to do.
Bloodless Bullfighting: A Cultural Compromise
00:43:50
Speaker
I'm aware that both Julie and Ant have chosen ah stories from what's been going on in the week as their pick of the week.
00:43:59
Speaker
And I believe both of the stories are our cow-based stories, one about bulls, the other about female bovine. So ah yeah, what an exciting thing to be coming up for our Pick of the Week.
00:44:22
Speaker
How exciting. Now, Julie, would you please tell us about what you have chosen for your pick of the week? Yes, thank you, Dominic. I will. I'm going to talk to everybody about something called bloodless bullfighting.
00:44:38
Speaker
And this has been in the news recently because Mexico City's Congress has voted to ban traditional bullfights and replace them with something called bloodless bullfighting.
00:44:53
Speaker
Mexico City's bullfighting ring is the biggest in the world, by the way, with 42,000 seats. seat So what they do really matters, you know, in the bullfighting scene, that I would say.
00:45:10
Speaker
um So the activists were calling for a complete ban, as you can imagine, and as some of us have joined in with that campaign. And we have joined in with campaigns in other countries that have been successful because bullfighting is completely banned in some countries.
00:45:26
Speaker
This bloodless bullfighting is um a real compromise. It's been hailed as a victory for the animal activists, but the animal activists themselves are not seeing it as a victory because it still obviously involves exploiting bulls and more about that later.
00:45:48
Speaker
a It's not a new idea, this bloodless bullfighting thing. It's actually quite a tradition. So it's traditional in Portugal to do bloodless bullfighting.
00:46:00
Speaker
It also exists in places like California aim where it's a newer thing. You know, it's kind of been brought over. But it does go on in other countries and it has gone on for a very, very long time. There are different versions of bloodless bullfighting.
00:46:17
Speaker
so in some versions of it the bull is still stabbed and injured so it isn't actually bloodless but it's not killed but it is still just to make it get really irate you know it is injured a bit in some versions it's got a kind of velcro thing put on its back and the lances are Velcro and then they're thrown onto but it's still obviously enraged by you know something that it doesn't want on its body. In some instances the matadors are on their feet, very often they're on a horse. The horse is getting extremely rough treatment. It put in danger as well being in such close proximity to bull who although they are bred to be
00:47:07
Speaker
aggressive, selectively bred, the most aggressive bulls, which again, because this selective breeding, it means that other animals get killed along the way, you know, the wastage we were talking about earlier. But also they are kept in conditions that makes them as aggressive as possible.
00:47:26
Speaker
But they also have to keep the edge off these bulls as well, or they would just kill the matadors outright. So they starve them, so that they are, you know, hungry and bad-tempered, but also a bit weak as well.
00:47:43
Speaker
And for some of them, they are transported eight to ten hours to get to a bullfight and then just unloaded and expected to, you know, de defend themselves against some eejit with a lance of some description. a The thing that people don't see,
00:48:04
Speaker
is that they're saying it's now illegal for a bull to die in the ring or outside the ring. Well, they've got to die somewhere. But that comes from the fact that quite often bulls die of exhaustion after the show is over.
00:48:20
Speaker
which is a horrible thing thought, isn't it? They often get killed in training as well because even if the display is going to be bloodless, when they're getting trained in order to make them angry enough to be charging consistently at some little annoying matador, they have to really hurt them in training as well.
00:48:41
Speaker
So it's a horrible, horrible sport. Whether they're doing fast, full on traditional style, whether they're doing this bloodless nonsense, it is a horrible idea that any animal is taunted and baited to the extent that it wants to kill something in front of it and it itself will end up dying either as I say from exhaustion or just getting slaughtered afterwards. a
00:49:15
Speaker
Horrible thing. We can still be opposing this. PETA gives you an opportunity to go on their website and oppose it. They've got a campaign running at the moment to oppose the school where the matadors are trained at a very young age and all the rest of it.
00:49:33
Speaker
What I would do as well is, if they're going to do bloodless, if they're going down that route, I think I would advise that I think it should be risk assessed and health and safety into oblivion.
00:49:48
Speaker
So I think my local council, I think they should get a hold of East Lothian Council to do their standard risk assessment and a health and safety policy.
00:50:00
Speaker
Lots of them, fact, lots of policies. And I think they should just make it so ah safe as possible so that it would suit the council. And the matadors, I think they would be kind of, they would have high vis sort of,
00:50:16
Speaker
Outfits, big crackly plastic high-vis, big overall things on and big ugly jackets, big stuff like that. And they wouldn't just be little covers on the bullhorns. There'd be something really, you know...
00:50:31
Speaker
soft on there and like those floats you get at the swimming pool well they've got noodles those big noodles absolutely absolutely they i would just and so just to the to the extent that people just said no please just please don't do this don't make us watch this we can't bear it yeah just make it so ridiculous I mean, that does seem to be yeah path. I know you jest, but like that does seem to be a path that um a lot of the activists and indeed some of the opponents of this change are foreseeing. It's almost kind of like a death of not starvation for an animal, but kind of starvation of entertainment. So this this ridiculous job that this person had, I am going to get personal here, Salvador Arias, he's a lawyer.
00:51:22
Speaker
for an organisation that defends bullfighting. Like, think of that as job. You know, looking yourself in the mirror every day. But anyway, he's he's saying, like, this has been tried before in other countries and and people stayed away. They didn't think it was entertaining enough. and and And actually, it's kind of like death of attrition. I think that's the phrase um I'm looking for. I was thinking death by a thousand cuts, but actually...
00:51:45
Speaker
and Yeah, quite the opposite. But but by it it just not being something that people find entertaining. And he's he's putting forward this argument saying, no, we shouldn't do this because if we do this, it will be too boring. People won't come.
00:51:57
Speaker
But just just because the alternative isn't entertaining enough. It doesn't mean that you go back to the brutal thing, does it? It's like that that there's not just two options here. Yeah, exactly. it's job or whatever But also, I think sometimes when somebody wants to do something really dodgy for their own gratification, if you make it OK for them to do it, but in an altered way, like we're saying, you know, make it all safe.
00:52:24
Speaker
so that they have to really spell out what it is that they want for their actual gratification, it just it disappears into the ether then because they feel daft because they have to say, oh, but we wanted the bull to be all blood coming out of it.
00:52:40
Speaker
If you just call people out that way so they actually have to really spell out what it is they are after, they will hopefully be their own judge and jury and that and just go, actually, what am I saying here?
Virtual Fencing: Ethical Concerns
00:52:52
Speaker
You know, why isn't this acceptable anymore if it's bloodless? What does that say about me? That maybe is not good. So, yeah. It's so frustrating how slowly the progress often has to be with cultural change. But I think sometimes it does. And that's not to be apathetic. That's not to say that we shouldn't campaign. And, know,
00:53:13
Speaker
you know you've you've outlined there julie like all the different reasons why it is horrific and why these animals who are experiencing this now they they need the change to be as soon as possible but i mean i'm i'm convinced that change will ultimately happen and we can help it we can help accelerate that change but it it it is coming it will get there i mean ah you know elena and who was on last week's news show, like she's far more culturally au fait with these things. And she was saying from a Spanish perspective, like you can see it's on the way out um and we just want it to be as quick as possible. Something that was really transformative for me as someone who was already vegan when I experienced this.
00:53:55
Speaker
I went to ah animal sanctuary for ah animals who were not on farms and there was a very large number of bulls and going back to everything Judy was saying about what bulls go through to make them violent, I realised that even as a vegan, I was holding on to the idea of bulls violent.
00:54:18
Speaker
And this man working for the sanctuary told me, bulls are not violent. Go and... say hello to this bull. I really didn't want to. I was like, but look at its horns. Look at it.
00:54:32
Speaker
um And these bulls who who have not ended up in the farming process, they have no reason to be angry they have no reason to fear people you're just another animal and there is no reason for hostility and and anger won't take place and the the the bulls were were massive and lovely and really changed my view really really positive thing Very positive.
00:55:03
Speaker
And keeping on that cow theme, I think let's head over to Ant for Ant's Pick of the Week. So another cow story, I believe. Ant, what have you brought for us today? yeah absolutely. I'm going to ah prefix my cow story with a cow story. um A couple years ago, my nanny, who is an incredible woman, she's 96 this summer, um although it was only very recently that she learned how cows produce milk. I had to explain that to her. bit of vegan advocacy there for a non-agenarian but anyway she told me about how some bullocks ended up churning up her front garden they had wandered up the street in the little village that she lives in in the fens and they'd been herded um by the farmer who'd caught them up on a fall but
00:55:47
Speaker
by four into her little cul-de-sac and they'd ended up on her front garden completely destroyed it and it's one of her prized things in her house she was very upset about it and we were all saying goodness how how has this happened how have these cows ended up here you know that the nearest field and farm is you know a good good mile away and this story comes from her neck of the woods it's just a couple of miles from her front door in the fens of Cambridgeshire where they are trying. It's not the first place in the country this has been done, and but the BBC have reported on it this week.
00:56:22
Speaker
The no-fence collars. So the idea is that you don't put fences up to keep your animals where you want them to be. You put a collar on them.
00:56:33
Speaker
And the way this collar works is if you're getting close to where the perimeter that you have set up on on the app, on the tech, when you get close to that perimeter, it will emit a noise um to warn the animal.
00:56:48
Speaker
You're getting close to the edge now. um But when they do reach where the edge is defined as, it will give an electric shock. Now, these animals are not specifically being used for animal ag. If you read this story at face value, of course there will be. they're not just They're not just living there and, oh, it's just naturally died.
00:57:12
Speaker
But the the premise that is being put forward by various wildlife trusts and and this this project, there is a rewild rewilding project at the Great Fen, as it's called in Cambridgeshire, it's got lots of grants, it's thought of very well, is to help this rewilding. Those of you who aren't aware, the very east or kind of southeast, but mainly east bit of England um used to be underwater or used to be marshes um that's been drained. It's had certain effects that are
00:57:44
Speaker
desirable for humans but not so much for wildlife so there's um there are efforts to kind of almost reflood bits of it um to help biodiversity to help restore things um as they perhaps would better be um and one of the ways that this is being done is by having um these magnificent cows. If you follow the link in our show notes, you'll see a picture of this lovely, lovely cow that unfortunately does have one of these collars around its neck. And I've chosen it as my pick for the week because from what I can see, this rewilding project is not as sinister as some
00:58:21
Speaker
that we have described on the show. Like I say, there is actually absolutely no question that these cows will live natural life and just die naturally and just be left to rot or be food for for other animals around. So that, you know, make no mistake, they will ultimately be killed and it will be humans who are eating them.
00:58:41
Speaker
The way that they're being given, quote, a bit more freedom, personally i like more than i like the idea of static electric fences um but there's still obviously human coercion and control going on there but i think what it put me in mind of and i'd be really interested to hear dominic and julie what you think about this um but it it gave me a bit of a a vision for perhaps what a kind of veganic world could like look like in in transition perhaps. I'm definitely not in favor of of our goal being giving cows electric shocks. you know
00:59:24
Speaker
I'm definitely not in favor of that. I'm definitely not in favor in principle, of us dictating where animals live. you know they there They're wild, kind of just like we are, but the fact is we've set up our own human infrastructure such that actually for their own safety, we might want to keep them away from a busy road or or whatever.
00:59:48
Speaker
um And it got me thinking, so ah I'm going to shut up now and just to see what you two think about this. there's There's lots of different elements to it, aren't there? But um yeah, definitely not in favour of the animal ag element of this, definitely not saying that this is the ultimate end that we should be aiming for.
01:00:05
Speaker
But I know, didn't seem as sinister as some things. And you can contradict me, it's fine. am I haven't done any research into this. I've seen these devices because you the places where I buy things for my sheepies have these items or something very similar already. So I have seen them.
01:00:26
Speaker
It's not something I would put in place for my the little sheep in my care. At all. I don't want them getting hurt every time they try and move somewhere. I think for their own psychological well-being, that would be a horrible thing.
01:00:42
Speaker
But fences where animals are trying to graze in safety and in peace are not just about keeping animals where you want to keep animals.
01:00:54
Speaker
They are also about keeping other animals that might hurt them out. So the fences that are where my sheep live keep dogs away from jumping into the field and chasing them and biting them or harassing them or whatever.
01:01:12
Speaker
And I'm very glad they're there because dogs show a lot of interest in doing that from time to time. So I think any technology like that has risks associated with it that it can be very easily intercepted and interfered with.
01:01:29
Speaker
You're causing pain to an animal. I don't see how that's ever justified. And I think as well, there could be health implications, even aside from the pain that you're inflicting,
01:01:43
Speaker
you know that There are links between people having living close to pylons or using their mobile phones too much and the link with tumours and things like that.
01:01:55
Speaker
I don't think it's fair to put some electrical equipment onto an animal. to wear all of its life day in day out it might be really uncomfortable it might be dangerous it might get caught on a tree branch or its neck or caught in in something else it just it doesn't seem safe it's not something that's natural for that animal like I say I wouldn't do it myself I don't think it sounds like a good idea idea I'm really grateful for your insight there, Julie, because I think I've been guilty of doing something I've kind of critiqued earlier, and that is anthropomorphizing and thinking, well, actually, I don't want to be fenced in.
01:02:35
Speaker
like So I'm thinking, oh, maybe if there's a way that just through sounds you can kind of say to an animal, oh, no, don't go over there or whatever. Obviously, the electric shock element of it is not good, but I'd not thought of actually the benefits of fences and things like that. And actually, if if it's not that much of an issue for animals, then then maybe that's a system that that works Well, I think it's one of those things that can, um I mean, it's obviously caught.
01:03:01
Speaker
There's no BBC article this week going, do you know, a farmer in Glamorgan's put up a new fence. Like that's that's not getting the headlines, is it? So so like there's there's an element of kind of like, oh, it's new and shiny.
01:03:15
Speaker
Therefore, it must be good. Yeah. But the other thing about fences as well is that fences' boundaries of some description, they can be, depending on how they're constructed, they could have hedges alongside them, which are, you know, shelter for animals.
01:03:34
Speaker
And aim for wildlife and, you know, carbon sinks and all the rest of it, boundaries are good that way. So they're good for shelter um and even for the animal feeling safe beside as well. So, yeah, they're not necessarily a bad thing. And the other thing that worries me a bit about these electronic devices is that...
01:03:56
Speaker
Who's to say? Maybe they never, ever malfunction in this way. But if the sound goes off and then the animal doesn't know what the sound means because they haven't learned it yet, and then the animal gets a big shock, is it always going to go backwards?
01:04:12
Speaker
Or is it just going to go forwards and either... just get tons of big shocks and end up just really freaking out? Or will it go beyond the boundary of where the shocks can occur and then it's gone, you know? But yeah, I don't like the sound of it from that point of view. But there's a lot to be said for fences.
01:04:34
Speaker
a Animals quite like scratching on them. They're handy. And another thing that I'll add is that fences yeah i guess there could be a strong wind and then blow over but when i think of the fences that were uh where i grew up in rural wales like you know surrounded by hedges or stone ever they were sturdy they were sturdy uh i'm a person who's a real luddite when it comes to technology like give me pen and paper over a laptop give me a switch rather than a voice activated thing because tech goes wrong
01:05:11
Speaker
Tech goes wrong. And, you know, even if we remove the possibility of the electric shock going wrong, which it absolutely could, it absolutely could malfunction. I mean, it's got the capability of giving an electric shock. But let's say all it was was the sound.
01:05:28
Speaker
Even that, what if that goes wrong and like messes with the perception of boundaries just because it's glitched? fences don't glitch yeah yeah i i am i'm really grateful for like reconsidering this i think what i really yearn for is a future where we can live alongside animals and we're not dictating where they can go i don't have the answer this isn't the answer and i think fences are they're still us dictating these things and we can do so with very good reason we can do so with very good reason so you know answers are a postcard
01:06:06
Speaker
how Well, to go back to our precision over language, I think some of it is ah teaching children over and over and over again that the main thing that animals need protecting from is us.
01:06:19
Speaker
The main thing they need protect from. So Julie mentioned dogs leaping over fences. what about teenagers What about like people who are on drunken weekend stag do's, you know, like fences, you know, potentially protect animals from people with ill intent in a way that some boundary free device wouldn't protect them from us. And I'm all in favour of animals having less interference from people.
01:06:54
Speaker
Alright, well listeners, do know that we always are keen to hear your views on any of the stories that we have covered on this show, or indeed any of the others.
01:07:06
Speaker
ah It's brilliant receiving your correspondence, so here is how you can get in touch. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
01:07:21
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
01:07:33
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com Thank you everybody for listening. If you'd like to tune in to the next episode, that will be coming out from Thursday, the 20th of March.
01:07:54
Speaker
It's a vegan talk episode. And it features Elena, Mark and Anthony. And they will be discussing, should vegans also be conscious consumers?
01:08:08
Speaker
Indeed, indeed. A very good conversation it was too. Look forward to sharing it with you. That is enough of the falafel for this episode. However, thank you to the master of ceremonies, Mr. Dominic, top job, 10 on 10.
01:08:22
Speaker
Thank you, Julie, for your contributions and putting me right with my harebrained electronic schemes. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I've been Anthony. You've been listening to Vegan Week from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
01:08:40
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplat.com.
01:08:55
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening, and see you next time.
01:09:21
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world week.
01:09:46
Speaker
week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from