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Pornography and Its Effects on Relationships: A Clinical Perspective (feat. Dr. Justin Dodson @ItsDrJKeith)
253 Plays1 year ago
In EPISODE 63 I am joined by Dr. Justin Dodson (@ItsDrJKeith) who practices as a Licensed Therapist in the state of TN working with adult males and couples.
On this episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, returning guest Dr. Justin and the host discuss the effects of pornography on individuals and relationships from a clinical perspective based on their experiences and research. They explore the rise of pornography with the internet boom, the impact of iPhones and tablets, and the correlation of reduced gray matter and decreased sexual responsiveness in the brain. They talk about the need for honesty in therapy and the development of coping mechanisms to replace problematic behaviors such as pornography addiction. They also touch on societal expectations placed on men in regards to sex and the importance of seeking help from trusted resources to discuss and address personal struggles. The episode ends with a personal story from the speaker about being exposed to sexual content at a young age, underscoring the importance of being mindful of what content is accessible to children.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
So as cliche or as like a marketing professional as this may sound, truly my tagline that men are looking to feel safe, seen and challenged.
00:00:12
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:32
Speaker
Welcome to the Therapy for Dads podcast. Welcome whenever you're listening, if it's the morning, afternoon, evening, or if it's three in the morning, whenever you're tuning in, welcome back. Today we have a guest who's been on the show, Dr. Justin, who has become a good friend of mine over this past, I think, gosh, almost a year now, I wanna say, right? It's maybe less than that, eight months? Maybe less than that, but,
00:01:00
Speaker
We'll go with it. We'll go with it, yeah. Sometime in 2022. I forget the first time we began talking, but he's been on the show before. If you haven't listened to that, I'm gonna drop in the show notes his episode, his first episode.
Exploring Pornography's Impact
00:01:14
Speaker
If you wanna listen to it, easy quick link. But I'm so glad to have him back on. We have been talking about this topic on and off for the past couple months about, I think it'd be a good thing to talk about, to address, to have two therapists
00:01:29
Speaker
Essentially talking about this topic to male therapists, because it really is, I think, very important to address. It's something that we both deal with in our offices, I think on a fairly consistent basis. It's something that's in our world, very much so.
00:01:47
Speaker
Clearly in our world and a lot of different ideas about it But today we're gonna be approaching it from a little more kind of clinical perspective of what we're seeing and its impact that it has and in today's topic You know, let's raise the curtain is on pornography and its effects it has on Us as individuals the effect it has on us in relationships
Dr. Justin's Expertise and Insights
00:02:08
Speaker
kind of the origin of
00:02:10
Speaker
when and how it starts and so that's a topic and today is not going to be it's not going to be an exhaustive conversation we're kind of we're making a dent at it it's a big topic and you know we're not going to cover everything in an hour but we're going to do our best to really be succinct and to really kind of give a good good go at from our clinical perspective and the research what we're seeing to have a better understanding about it
00:02:35
Speaker
and then maybe even some things we can do about it if we want to get some help. So without further ado, welcome Justin, Dr. Justin.
00:02:45
Speaker
Hey Travis, I am so glad to be back. Thank you for that introduction. So I am Dr. Justin Dotson. I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Tennessee, as well as a counselor, educator, and author and speaker. And so I am really happy to be here today to cover this topic with you. And like you said, it's really just a small dent. It is not going to cover everything, and this will be one-stop shop, but I think it will be informative enough for people to be able to use as a resource moving forward.
00:03:14
Speaker
Based on our expertise and the work that we get to do with our clients on a regular basis Because as a therapist and I work with adult males a lot of my guys that I see presenting concern pornography is 70% across the board in terms of a commonality Between about presenting concern so glad to talk about this issue today and I would agree that
00:03:38
Speaker
Um, definitely high up there about, you know, something 60, 70% when you ask the question, it's pretty more common than, than not. Um, and a concern often for a lot of guys, um, some guys, not so much. And that's a different conversation. And like Justin said, we're going to do our best to, to be clear and to be concise.
00:03:58
Speaker
and to have a conversation. And this might open up a second conversation about it, but I think we at least wanted to open the conversation and begin a dialogue. And I think having a good, healthy dialogue around it, and this conversation is not going to be approached with shame or guilt, but really about inviting, seeking to understand about this. So I think that's my heart in this, and I'm assuming yours as well. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but for me,
00:04:25
Speaker
invite people in to have this dialogue or at least to listen to it and to begin talking about them with themselves or maybe even open up conversations with their partner, things like that. So that's what this is really about for me is an invitation of curiosity and understanding.
00:04:42
Speaker
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad we're on. So let's just jump in. So I guess let's talk about kind of the origin and when, when are we first kind of exposed? Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question because I think that if we were in a room full of people and we asked them
00:05:01
Speaker
where they learned how to first have sex, people would probably start with, well, I learned about pornography, and that led me to talks about sex. And so some studies really do show us that people are exposed to pornography as young as six years old. Some studies will say 11 years old, but what we really do, what we really know is that it's usually between six and 10 years old that people are first exposed to pornography.
00:05:30
Speaker
And when we talk about exposure, it comes in three different forms. Either I accidentally stumbled across it, and in my day and time, it was you finding a VHS tape in a closet somewhere, you popping it into the VCR, and you stumble upon it. Or magazines where you find them stashed somewhere, so it's either accidental, where people get exposed to pornography or sexual content.
00:05:54
Speaker
And then you also have where someone has showed it to them. So if you think back on time when Playboy magazines, I don't even know if they're still a thing, but when that was a popular phenomenon, it was a sort of rite of passage for usually
00:06:11
Speaker
an older male figure, whether it's a brother, uncle, or parent, to pass along the collection. And so then I am given this information or this rite of passage of taking someone to a strip club for the first time when they become of age, right? So there is this... You even think about bachelor parties, right? I mean, just to keep in mind, you think of the typical, what they show at a bachelor party is, right, guys go to strip clubs.
00:06:40
Speaker
Which I did not do for my bachelor party. I'm just gonna put that out there. I did not do that. But you see that on TV, on movies, that's just what's portrayed as what men do. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so you have this accidental, I stumbled upon an oops, or someone exposes me to it, or you also have curiosity. And kids seek it, adults seek it.
00:07:05
Speaker
and we hear about sex in the bathroom or in the hallway at school. And the reason why I'm focusing on child age, because that's usually when we're exposed
Personal Stories and Early Exposure
00:07:14
Speaker
to it, right? Going back to that original question. So, accidental, somebody shows it to you or you seek it out is usually how we're first introduced to pornography or sexual content.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I heard the same, and I know I read the research too, and that's very much what it says. I know for me to be a little personal, I mean, might as well make it real, hey, I was exposed at, I want to say I was like six or seven. It was a neighbor, when we've talked about this, it was a neighbor.
00:07:42
Speaker
uh kid and the magazines were out like in just a little magazine holder in the living room on the side just next to the couch it wasn't even like hidden it was just i guess it'd probably more like that the second way that people that kids are introduced is kind of more passed on that this parent apparently just was comfortable with just it being out and just next to the couch and i was seven six something like that and you know at the time i i knew it was women but i didn't
00:08:06
Speaker
You know, my little brain didn't know. It was kind of, to me, I remember thinking back. It was like, this is weird. Like, why are they laying? Like, it just, I was trying to make sense of it as a little six-year-old brain of interesting and curious, but I knew it's something just didn't feel quite right when I was looking at it. Because in my home, we didn't have that. And I knew it was just like, this is weird. And I didn't have an aunt. There was no adult around. It was just kind of me and this other kid.
00:08:29
Speaker
And then I remember that and then, you know, I didn't see it again because I don't think I was actually allowed that kid's house after that. I think something I'm either I told my parent or something and I think they stopped that. But yeah, that's for me when I was first exposed, which is crazy to think. That's bizarre, actually, when you tell that story. And I actually don't think that that's too far off from many people's experience.
00:08:52
Speaker
I think for me, it was stumbling across truly a VHS date and wondering, well, what is this? And you popping it into the VCR and then before you know it. Oh, got it. Okay. Well, I know I'm not supposed to be watching this in front of anybody and I probably should have found this anyway because I was really snooping. Right. And so then you accidentally stumble upon something. And I think for
00:09:17
Speaker
history we had well in my day and time there was VHS tapes then DVDs and then at that time internet was becoming a thing so then you're searching for it and if you were anything like my family we had AOL dial-up where it's screaming at you to get online and then the images take forever to load
00:09:38
Speaker
And so here you are with this process of being exposed to it. And then there are some studies that say 70% of youth are exposed to pornography and that will admit to seeing it. And this is men and women, right? And so not just gender specific, even though I think we'll be talking about men today some, but looking at the origin of that, people are exposed at a young age. And what does that do? That makes us curious.
00:10:05
Speaker
and we keep watching it and we consume more in order to get the same level of satisfaction. So that story of yours, that is, well, I'm glad you didn't get to go back to that family's house.
00:10:18
Speaker
And I'm going to say it's because you told your parents because you were a good kid. Yeah, probably. I'm sure. I mean, I can't think of what that that image is in my head. Like it literally that is in my head. And it's it's weird to think like that the actual first image I saw is it's still in my head. It gets I can't get rid of it. It's there, which is incredible what the brain does.
00:10:40
Speaker
and just how that early exposure and you know we're gonna get into it like you know the effect it has on our brains and development and not that if you're exposed once you're in wreck the rest of your life but amazing early exposure how the brain starts to wire like you said you get the curiosity can build curiosity and in our day it sounds like we're old I mean we're older but yeah you're right we didn't have I think accessibility which we'll talk about has changed quite drastically especially with the kind of internet boom
00:11:06
Speaker
in the early 2000s with the internet becoming more quick and speedy and more access and nowadays with you know phones that kids now have that we didn't have like again there was it was different and we're gonna get there. What are some of the and you shared some of the stats do we know how often pornography is being currently used we have any stats on that?
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. So when you talk about the internet booming in the early 2000s, fast forward in 2020, Pornhub did a data analysis and it indicated that most of the porn consumption or most of it is being accessed through mobile devices.
00:11:42
Speaker
Well, if you walk into a mall or anywhere else, you see people on their mobile device. And so people are watching it and it's accessible whether you're at home or at work or anywhere. So we went from only being able to see it at certain times of the day, right? Where you had internet access or no one was watching to now, people can access it at any time.
00:12:04
Speaker
And it's also on social media and your timeline of your feeds. It's interesting, when we started talking about this a couple of months ago, I started getting Facebook ads on Pornaru. And I don't know if you did this. No, I did. It's wild.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, and it's and so I'm blocking it and blocking it and reporting it because I think I could probably accept seeing seeing it on certain platforms. That's not you don't see it on Facebook that was so foreign to me and I was I was appalled by it.
00:12:35
Speaker
But then I also had to realize, oh, crap, I've been talking to Travis about the work that we'll do today. And this is where that's coming from. So and as adults, we have the wherewithal to block it and report it. And for children or teenagers, adolescents, for someone whose brain isn't fully developed, the curiosity and the part of the brain that processes rational thought, the prefrontal cortex is not saying, hey, don't do this. This is bad. It's saying, oh, what is this? And
00:13:04
Speaker
seeking more reward. That's why youth are more susceptible to do drugs and have sex and watch pornography, because as a people, we're constantly searching for something to be pleasurable and rewarding. And oftentimes when things are off limits, what do we do? We push the boundaries. So it is interesting not to get off too much, but it is interesting that we both saw that. And so we think about what that does in today's time with children.
00:13:30
Speaker
talking and asking questions about things that they see on an everyday basis. So when talking about pornography, people are watching it because sometimes they're bored, they're stressed, they're sad, they're angry, and it's usually a response to something that's happening. And it's consistent.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's always there. It's not going to yell back at you. It's not going to leave you confused or there's no conflict there. And so people fall into this pattern of this is comfortable. And before you know it, it can be problematic easily.
00:14:03
Speaker
And so you mentioned one reason and as you think of whether it's the data or the men you've worked with, what are some of the other big themed reasons you hear that men are using this, I'm gonna call it a substance, use this substance? What are some of the other themed reasons that you're hearing from men in therapy?
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, ultimately based on the work that I've done and what I know is that it becomes a safe place and it becomes a go to and it's really a second nature thing where, oh, I have a conflict with my partner. I'll just do something that is going to bring me pleasure and not have me in a conflict or a discord with somebody. Also, I think the work that I've done with men
Emotional Fulfillment and Misconceptions
00:14:44
Speaker
is
00:14:44
Speaker
It shows, like I said, safety, but then also they're really wanting attention and love. And what am I going to do? I'm going to choose this substance that's going to make me think that this is what I'm getting. But I think in the work that I have done, what I've learned is that on the other side of engaging and using this substance, a lot of guys do feel empty and unfulfilled because it really didn't do exactly what they thought it was going to do.
00:15:13
Speaker
So it may have been pleasurable in the moment, but long term after the deed is done, I'm really not left with anything because maybe I was really needing a hug or I needed to be heard or I needed not to be shamed because I express the feeling. And so that's why the pornography becomes a safe space because it's not going to argue with me. It's not going to make me feel bad about feeling angry or sad. And then it becomes a coping mechanism.
00:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, it fills the need for the moment. Like you said, it's a short term fill, but the long term, they're looking often for something deeper and more fulfilling, which that much like a drug, much like, you know, people turn to alcohol or some other drug is that it'll, it'll, it might fill it for a moment and feel better. But then when that wears off, when the alcohol wears off or, you know, the looking at pornography wears off, you know, a few minutes later, you, you're still left with the feeling of what it is that you're looking for. So I'm wondering.
00:16:04
Speaker
I want to look at this from two different angles and I think it's going to be good to look at this as what are some of the and bear with me those that are listening is that what are some of the positive like what does it do for us that's positive in the short term. Yeah. Yeah. So in the short term, I think that pornography really does show so.
00:16:22
Speaker
go with me. For instance, I used to work at a residential facility and a lot of the kids that I worked with were labeled as sexual offenders. And I would get families that say, well, we don't want them to have the birds and the bees talk. We don't want to have them talk about sex at all. Well, I think we're a little bit past that.
00:16:40
Speaker
But what pornography did for the kid was taught them what their parents would refuse to teach them. So they had curiosities and they would learn about sex. So honestly, going back to the original statement of today's talk is that when you ask people where did they first learn about it, if your family won't teach you pornography, we'll show you something.
00:16:57
Speaker
It's not going to be the complete story. It's not going to be a very accurate depiction of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. But it does show you some things that now I want to recreate as a human being to see if I can get the pleasure that it looks like those people are having or I'm doing the thing that I believe I'm supposed to be doing.
00:17:16
Speaker
In the short, I really do think that it exposes you to something that sometimes you're not taught, even though it's not a complete story or the actual truth. And I also think that it brings sexual pleasure and it teaches people in relationships that are healthy how to have variety. So I think in the short, it can do those things. But like I said, it's not the full story and not a complete truth.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, and what are some of the other things that you kind of had said earlier, I think boredom was one that you mentioned some of the guys talked about. Something I've heard a lot of for some men I've worked with is stress relief. You know, I can't sleep, right? I need to, my mind's racing. So I do this and my mind calms down. Those are some things I've heard quite commonly actually. Another one I've heard is maybe if they're feeling frustration with their partner, they turn to that.
00:18:04
Speaker
I've heard that too where maybe there's some disconnect there and well, it kind of goes at the safety piece you were talking about. Well, I feel safe. I could do this here and I don't have to worry about being shut down or whatever. I could just, it's there and I get to use it when I like to and need to.
00:18:19
Speaker
Exactly. And so it's consistent. It's the constant that everybody is looking for. And it's always going to be there. So when you talk about stress relief, I'll ask my clients, well, what was happening before you actually engaged in this consumption of pornography, which is usually paired with masturbation?
00:18:38
Speaker
Well, I had a really rough day. Ah, okay. So going back to this word drug, similarly to when I want to take a drink at the end of a rough week or at the end of a rough day, I'm going to consume this product, this drug, this substance in order to alleviate this stress.
00:18:55
Speaker
this anger, this sadness, this emptiness, this conflict that I feel in order to feel better. And so that's the equation that it usually becomes and pornography becomes a tool, a tool to make us feel better.
00:19:11
Speaker
Even though it's not the complete story and it may alleviate some stress and usually my guys will say, well, yeah, it did make me feel better. But then that's where the shame and the guilt and everything else floods me. But we're not rationally thinking about that.
00:19:28
Speaker
in the moment where we really want to get a need met.
00:19:47
Speaker
and there's something they're truly looking for and this is that substance, this is what they found to find the relief or find that answer but as we know and which we've talked with tons of men is that well in the long term that need is still there and pornography is not actually quenching the thirst so to speak it's just alleviating it temporarily until it comes back to the surface much like drinking or much like you know we've you know clients using weed or some other something else that
00:20:16
Speaker
is not genuinely what they're looking for. And so that's some of the short-term positives. Any long-term positives that you are seeing? Not from the work that I've done with men that present with pornography as a concern. I haven't seen any long-term positives. If anything, it's long-term negative effects. But I actually cannot find in research that I've done or the work that I've actually done, I haven't found any long-term positives actually.
00:20:42
Speaker
so let's flip it for a second and the reason why I wanted to do the positive is because I want people who maybe don't understand this or whether it's a woman listening to this episode who maybe doesn't fully understand it or even a guy who maybe you're trying to understand why you're doing it outside of just you know just get better understanding of yourself is that it is serving a purpose and we want to again validate
00:21:02
Speaker
the need you're trying to meet, but know that it's not the answer. And we have empathy for you and understanding because we work a lot with this and we want you to know that, hey, we get it. We want to help you get a little farther down the road and find something that's actually more, that actually really does address the need you're looking for. What are some of the short-term negatives and long-term negatives that we're seeing in pornography use?
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, so short term negatives, it lays the foundation that this is what healthy sexual behavior looks like, or this is what sexual behavior looks like in general. It also doesn't show you the full picture of this is scripted. So to give you an example, when I first started or exposed to pornography, you're looking at 30, 40, 50, 60 minute long videos. In my kid brain,
00:21:49
Speaker
I was thinking, oh, all right, so you're supposed to last. You're supposed to do this act for 60 minutes at a time. And so I think in the short, it doesn't give you an accurate depiction of what you can do, what your body can do, what your partner wants, what is going to be satisfactory in that relationship. And then also long term, it really creates this neural pathway. Right. So the the more we do something and the more patterns that we create in our behavior, the more likely our brain is to expect that and to want that thing.
00:22:19
Speaker
So I always explain to people like this, if you park in grass and eventually you're going to run that grass down. So the more that we consume a product, whether it's a drug or a substance, in this case pornography, the more we're running that grass down in our driveway. And we have just laid a neural pathway for that to be
00:22:39
Speaker
something that's pleasurable for us. So then before we know it, we have to have more of that thing. Just like with drinking, you're building your tolerance. So long term, I think that that's what it does. It also, in relationships, sometimes men develop erectile dysfunction because of pornography and masturbation. In relationships, maybe you're not able to perform because you have used energy on this. Maybe you've neglected responsibilities because you have
00:23:06
Speaker
chosen to consume pornography. So long term, it does that. And then also it teaches us this is the coping skill that we have because it doesn't leave us. And so then we don't challenge ourselves to identify other behavior to invest in other than this thing that we know to be tried and true, because this is what I've done for so long. So in the long term, I think that that's what it does in terms of an effect on the brain and the human person.
00:23:34
Speaker
Within the brain too, you're right, it creates this neural pathway and, you know, that use it or lose it. I love the analogy of the grass. It's so vivid, like absolutely kills the grass that it's on, but it creates this connection. That's the part I think the addictive piece that sometimes get missed is that, you know, the more you wire that, you know, in your brain, it gets, it does get harder. It becomes more automatic.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah, even going back to this idea of the negative effects, watching pornography so much it can create permissive attitudes towards sexual behavior.
Consequences and Problematic Behaviors
00:24:01
Speaker
And so watching the variety and the types of pornography that people have out there that's in the world, maybe I grow up to not care as much. And so when I'm engaging in sex, I just go along with the flow and have this permissive attitude because that's what I saw in the videos. I think there was actually an episode on Law and Order about that years and years ago.
00:24:22
Speaker
around a college young lady who got into the porn industry. And before you know it, that became her life. It can also lead to aggression with seeing the types of variety of pornography, unrealistic expectations of what your partner can do for you. And so that can cause a discord in terms of healthy relationship building.
00:24:46
Speaker
And then these sexual scripts that people have as well. So I think that those are all things that can, well, some, not everything, but those are some things that do happen as a result. The other effects on the brain, you mentioned one, that neural pathway, that neural connection, it does get stronger the more you use it, just like anything we do. As a helpful tool for our brain to do for a variety of things, but also could be very unhelpful, because our brain doesn't differentiate between necessarily helpful or not helpful. It just knows that you're doing this. And so it's like, okay, this must be good. So I'm going to make this stronger.
00:25:16
Speaker
So that's one thing, the impact on the brain. And you did mention ED, which I do know, I can't remember the stats, and you might have these handy, but I know that there was a significant increase in young men that had ED due to porn use that it wasn't necessarily like just a medical issue, but it was a porn issue. It wasn't medical, and the increase of ED in young men, like guys in their 20s, shot through the roof. Do you have the stats on that? I can't remember if you do or not.
00:25:43
Speaker
I don't have the exact stat on that, but there is an intersection.
00:25:48
Speaker
Right? So when we think of erectile dysfunction, you think of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, smoking. You think of medical issues that cause it. And I have to educate a lot of the guys that I see, just like women have reproductive issues, men have issues that they face as well. And so when you think about erectile dysfunction, just like diabetes and high blood pressure,
00:26:15
Speaker
and all the medical causes that lead to that. You also have stress and anxiety and poor managing of feelings. And you have mental health issues that contribute to erectile dysfunction as well.
00:26:29
Speaker
And when you talk about performance anxiety, well, when I watch pornography, there typically isn't erectile dysfunction because there's no performance anxiety. There's no expectation to do anything other than like you were saying, going back to this senseless act where I may just turn it on just because, and I may not even be paying attention, but then that's that neural pathway that it's creating.
00:26:49
Speaker
And so there is a correlation in the intersection between erectile dysfunction and the use of pornography. Yeah. And I think, let me grab the book. In fact, I took a note on this book, which I'll share the resource later. It's called Your Brain on Porn, which was a book written in 2014. 2014, first published in the UK. And it's a good book. It kind of goes over a lot of what we're talking about today.
00:27:17
Speaker
But they do mention about the rise in pornography with the internet boom. Oh, this was an interesting stat that I read. This was fascinating. So in May of 2014, there was a journal published in a psychiatry journal showing that even moderate porn users for a number of years or certain hours per week
00:27:36
Speaker
they showed a correlation of reduced gray matter and decreased sexual responsiveness in the brain, which often can lead to when they're trying to have sex with a live person, a partner, they can have ED or struggle because it's reducing gray matter in the brain where
00:27:51
Speaker
They don't have that same stimulus like it is in porn. And so it's creating this issue and this diminished libido with a live person in young men, men in their twenties, you know, where before the internet boom, that really wasn't prevalent.
00:28:08
Speaker
It wasn't it wasn't really around but they said starting in 2006 when the high-speed internet came in from all the research that that's when they really started to see this data showing which is really sad really alarming too that I don't I'd be curious to see when the new stats come out in the next few years especially with the rise of like iPhones and tablets that you know in 2006 we didn't have iPhones we didn't have these kinds of phones we had high-speed internet but we didn't have this so I'd be curious the next five ten years how the stats are gonna be shifted with
00:28:38
Speaker
now essentially having small computers in our pockets. And how difficult it is to, especially with young teenage brains or young male brains, to resist the temptation because there's ads, like you said, even I'm getting, it's one click. You don't have to find some sleazy video store. You don't have to find that magazine store. It's just a click. It's one click.
00:29:05
Speaker
and the brain, you don't, and the brain with phones, as we know, it's so, it just creates this addictive, it's easy, and there's no resistance, there's no barriers, just boom, there it is. Like you said, you could be at the mall, you could be at work, you could be anywhere with these phones, and no one's the wiser. And in a way, you're on your own little bubble when you have your headphones in, it's like people exist in their own world. So it's a very, I think, I'm seeing some dangers of this,
00:29:31
Speaker
especially on the brain and especially on the impact of relationships and we're seeing it in real life these men coming in struggling and we're seeing the real-life struggle of these of these guys who want relationships who do but then struggle with this and don't know how to stop and struggle with how do I you know how do I resist it's been so long or
00:29:52
Speaker
Um, you know, this was, this is, has been my coping. This is what I do and have been doing for five, 10, 15 years, you know, and this has been my thing or my secret.
Shame and Isolation in Pornography Use
00:30:02
Speaker
And I think it's really misunderstood and it really keeps men, I think, stuck in fear. Um,
00:30:09
Speaker
And it's really, really, really, it's really sad when they first came in, but I know that there's hope and I know you've seen a lot of men get free from it and live more, I think holistically without being stuck behind this kind of this barrier. But yeah, the effects on the brain, it's like a hook. You know, in fact, the image of this, I love the image of this book.
00:30:29
Speaker
it's a hook in the brain it's like a fish hook because it really it's a hook and it's really hard and sticky to get out for some of these guys and they really try some of them really really try and they really find that it's not always easy
00:30:42
Speaker
because of the accessibility. It's just there. The more we have access to products and services, the more we'll use them. And the truth is, when you talk about some guys feel stuck, that's exactly right. And so in the education that I do with my clients, I always try to, like you said, validate their experience. And I understand that this has been your constant.
00:31:01
Speaker
And then also, this is not going to change overnight. This one therapy session, these two therapy sessions, change isn't going to come automatically. You may be more motivated to change. We'll start to implement some things that I know we'll talk about today, but it's not going to be an automatic change. Always tell people you didn't end up the way you are overnight. And so changing that is also going to be a process.
00:31:23
Speaker
And so I'm hoping that what we're doing here is letting people know we get it. We totally get it. It makes sense. You're not out of your mind for this to be a problem. It also probably wasn't your fault that you were introduced to this. And then also when we talk about going back to that brain chemistry, when you're young, that's what happens. We're shaped and our brain is formed to
00:31:47
Speaker
follow certain patterns. And when we're exposed to that, especially over the course of time and for years and years, scary things happen. But this is where we are. And so I'm glad to see a lot of people seeking help for it and being open and talking about it with a trusted person, because sometimes you can't do that in relationships with people because of the shame or the fear, or you have tried and someone is in a safe place because they're going to shame you or do everything that you were most afraid of.
00:32:16
Speaker
So I'm glad that people are seeking out resources to be able to openly discuss what's happening. So how how pervasive is shame around pornography? Oh, it keeps you it keeps you stuck because the shame says that I am a bad person for doing this. And then that leads to guilt. That means that I've done something wrong.
00:32:36
Speaker
you combine those two things and you have, you living in a society where sex sales, right? That's been the phenomenon, but an incomplete story because it's also not very healthy. It's not sustainable. And so there's more to that if we wanted to finish that sentence, sex sales, but it also does X, Y, and Z. And so society approves of sex and sexual content, but then we,
00:33:04
Speaker
don't often talk about the result of what happens after that, right? So it's going to sell in the moment, but then you have a kid out there stuck with those images, i.e. yourself, with this image of the first time that that was imprinted on the brain. 20 years later, what could possibly be happening?
00:33:23
Speaker
And so shame keeps us stuck. It keeps us from talking about our problems and our presenting concern. And it keeps us in fear that no one will understand and nothing can be done about this. You know, shame's purpose is to keep us isolated in fear and alone and disconnected from others.
00:33:41
Speaker
And I think for a lot of men, shame really does do that. I see it and they're disconnected because of the fear of, if they know me, if they know this, they'll know I'm bad and then ultimately be rejected and be alone. So it's like, it's this negative feedback loop. Until they come into therapy, until they actually talk to a safe person, they realize, oh, I'm not rejected. But even then though, it's like we have to slowly build that trust of like, no, we care for you, we want you to do better. And there are genuine people, but it's still that lie creeps in
00:34:09
Speaker
And that lie too, especially if they look at it again, you know, it's like that relapse, like guys, you know, people in recovery, if they relapse again, it's like, it's just like, well, see, you told your wife and try. And so that lie comes back in and they isolate more and they go back and.
00:34:26
Speaker
But really, we want to break that line and say, yeah, shame has a goal and it's to keep you from moving forward. But our goal as fellow men and therapists that really want to help you is like, no, our goal is to help you not stay stuck, but to live in freedom, not to be bound by the fear of not being accepted, but know that the shame pornography does not define you, not in the slightest and not at all. Not at all.
00:34:52
Speaker
And shame also, like you said, it has a goal. It pushes us to take on this identity of not being worthy because of this thing that I'm struggling with. Yeah. So shame keeps us. It wins oftentimes because if I tell my story, if I tell myself this story of can't tell anybody, I'm a crappy person. I'm not a good guy. I am doing harm to myself and my family. And then I,
00:35:19
Speaker
feel afraid to be able to share that with somebody, then I'm stuck in this loop. And then if I do tell my partner or somebody and they shame me and say, well, man, why are you doing that? That's dumb. And you're this and you're that, then that just that's going to make me suppress that even more. And before you know it, I'm stuck in this unhealthy loop of behavior.
00:35:38
Speaker
And so I'm glad that we as therapists can openly talk about this on a forum where people will have access to it because there is somebody out there that is living with this and say, Hey, you're not, you're not out of your mind. It's not the end of the world. There can be help, but we also have to make the decision to want to do something different and figure out how to do that and what's going to be realistic because what's realistic for me may not be realistic for you.
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah. And there are varying degrees of use. You know, it's on a spectrum of just like people who are using alcohol or something else. It's like very rarely, but they still use it for every once in a while. It's a, you know, daily. And now for a short break.
00:36:17
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:36:34
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
Seeking Help and Therapy
00:36:50
Speaker
Now what? We've realized that I'm struggling and I've gained the courage to call a therapist or gained the courage to talk to somebody and you know what? I've been using this and I've been trying to fill a need and now what? Now what do I do? Well, you listed some great steps where I'm identifying the need. That's the first big step. I am making the appointment or having someone call someone for me because that's also not uncommon.
00:37:17
Speaker
I'm answering the phone when that intake is supposed to take place and I'm responding. So those are steps that you even do before you even get to the actual work. But being honest with your therapist, being honest with whatever resource that you're using is going to be really important. Because if not, you're really wasting time, you're wasting money, you're wasting resources. So I think honesty is always going to be the best first ticket, no matter how ugly or nasty that may feel to say out loud for the first time.
00:37:45
Speaker
your therapist should not shame you or make you feel like crap because of it. And if they do, you need to fire them. So that's just a tidbit and an aside because I really do believe in that. But other than that, if we look at the work, we actually talk about behavior replacement. So anytime that we're going to be
00:38:02
Speaker
getting rid of one behavior, for lack of better words, we're gonna usually replace that with something else. And so what we do in the work that I provide is identify what was going on at the time that you had this craving to, and I use the word craving because truly, just like any other substance, to consume this thing, what was happening?
00:38:23
Speaker
Where were you? Because obviously you had access to it, right? So our increased accessibility will allow us and more likely to do this thing. What were you thinking? What were you feeling? What were the circumstances? So let's take inventory of that. And then how did you actually give yourself permission to engage and consume? And then what were you feelings on the other side of that? So tracking the ugly part in the reality of what's happening, looking at the frequency,
00:38:50
Speaker
And sometimes the type of pornography that people are consuming as well makes a difference and can make things more risky for them. So looking at the beginning and then figuring out a plan of when you do feel sad, when you do feel stressed, when you do feel whatever you're feeling that we've laid out, what can you do differently? Because that thought and that image and that circumstance led you to giving yourself permission. What can we do differently?
00:39:19
Speaker
And how does that feel? Let's keep track of that. Have you come back in two weeks and it didn't work? Okay, let's talk about why it didn't work. What was unrealistic about what you did? What other coping mechanisms are you utilizing in your toolbox other than pornography? So that's when we get into simple things that people are already doing that they may not realize.
00:39:40
Speaker
working out. I know it sounds simple, but exercise as a rate is a great stress reliever, and it's also healthy. We're looking at believing stress. What can we do when we feel stress? We can read, we can journal, we can talk to a partner, we can utilize therapy, we can meditate, we can breathe.
00:39:57
Speaker
we can call a supported friend, then we'll get to the apps and the programs that can help build barriers around it. So there are, for a very basic level of operating, there are things that you can do to replace that behavior in that moment to manage the craving.
00:40:15
Speaker
I use the term chaining, which is the DBT term, so chaining the events that led up to the use, right? And what we're doing there is we're trying to understand what were you feeling, because often there's a felt need, you're feeling stressed, anxious, worried, depressed, sad, upset, something that legitimately needs to be seen, and often we don't know how to address that feeling inside.
00:40:36
Speaker
because we maybe turned a porn or something else or I've learned to maybe not look at those feelings for you know especially as men well I don't want to feel these feelings because they're it shows weakness or I'm a wuss or whatever and so we've been so trained also to not feel certain feelings
00:40:52
Speaker
and then we want to get away from this so this becomes the answer and this is more quote-unquote manly because also unfortunately it's shown that as I said before it showed on TV this is what men do you know this is men right which is so not accurate but unfortunately it's perpetuating this like unhealthy image and narrative of men but guys buy into it that's what men do you know so they do this and they don't know they don't have the intelligence we call EQ or emotional intelligence right to
00:41:21
Speaker
actually look at the emotions. So part of the work we do too, right, is we're building that that muscle of emotional intelligence of EQ with men to say we can't sit with this feeling. What is and giving them the language to actually identify because a lot of men don't know they just know they don't like it. They feel something's off and I need to fix it now and this is the fix. And so I know that's what I do with them too is building that emotional intelligence, building that muscle, giving them a tool like you said tool belt is
00:41:45
Speaker
Given the capacity to sit with the emotion longer than like a split second because often they can't sit with it It's too. It's too overwhelming for a lot of men And so yeah, I got this is like I have to get rid of it And this is the this is the fix those feelings don't don't have a place so they can't stay here very long and we get rid of it right if I if I can't fit something anymore have no use of it I get rid of it and I don't know what to do with this feeling so let me go do what I do know how to do and
00:42:14
Speaker
that one thing that won't leave me, that will argue with me, that won't make me feel confused or any of that, I'm gonna do this thing.
00:42:22
Speaker
And then, all right, we're going to be better. And that really, like we know, is an incomplete thought and sentence. So you're exactly right. You're exactly right. It's the unmet need of these feelings. And we're using this tool and this drug to satisfy that. And so like you said, chaining those behaviors to figure out the why behind and what led you up to that.
Strategies for Overcoming Addiction
00:42:42
Speaker
And then we're going to go into what are you willing to do differently?
00:42:46
Speaker
How are you willing to remove access? How are you willing to maybe reduce it you're used by once or twice this week? So I'm never going to ask my clients to. All right. We're going to stop cold turkey. You're healed. We've done therapy. I'm the best.
00:43:01
Speaker
This is great. I'm not gonna do that. That is that is Ego centric and unrealistic, but what we will say is all right We'll try on for size doing it one less time and see how that feels to you. Okay Well, let's do something two less times and then let's journal instead and let's go for a walk instead or go to the gym instead and
00:43:22
Speaker
and try to work on this impulse control as well because this lack of control is what led us here. And then even for an aside, going back when you said men sign up for it or they take on this, well, men have sex and men do this thing that's over-sexualized, I think that's often pushed on men as well.
00:43:41
Speaker
And that's a whole other conversation. But if you have a handsome 14 year old son, oh, he's going to be a heartbreaker. Well, what does that do? That sets him up to have behaviors that are synonymous with being a heartbreaker, I'll say, for lack of better words. Or, you know, how many people you're sleeping with now? How many girls you got? And then there is this need and the desire to right. Fulfill that expectation. And before you know it,
00:44:08
Speaker
Men are addicted to pornography and definitely big cultural component for sure. Yeah, it's a cultural component and that's unfortunate So that is the work that we get to do at looking at the next steps of all right We know this problem exists. Let's start here. We're trying to figure it out
00:44:24
Speaker
And what are some of the other resources that you found helpful for men that are kind of working on this and trying to change their behavior? And I know you mentioned a few of chaining and journaling and exercise. Anything else that we use? I know there's some books out there and some other apps I think you can get for your phone or computers.
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah, so one thing and it's more of a religious based product, but confident eyes is a way to keep accountability. You usually see it in churches and men's groups where you have an accountability partner and and there is this program where you can put on your phone and your computer that if you access or you attempt to access sites that are that are going to give you pornography, then that person is alerted.
00:45:08
Speaker
It's an accountability partner, but it's usually seen in religious settings. I've seen that work for people, but if you're not religious or you're affiliated with that and don't believe in it, that's okay too, but it is a resource. Also, books. Who's to say that our clients can't read the same books that we're reading? Just like the resource that you pulled out today, I think is great.
00:45:32
Speaker
And I really love the book, Craving, while we can't seem to get more. I think that that is so relevant because it doesn't indicate just one substance, right? So it's not just talking about drugs or alcohol or pornography, it's talking about the craving and substances in general. So I think that that's something good if people really want to understand and learn more about the psychology of why they're doing what they're doing.
00:45:57
Speaker
I say start with your therapist and when you are interviewing your therapist and you're shopping around, ask what their experience is with what you are coming to therapy for. And you're presenting concerns and see if they would feel like a good fit because just like therapists want to like who we're working with and feel good about and confident in the work that we can produce and provide for them, clients should also feel really good about who they're seeing. And I think that that's a, you know, if you don't like your
00:46:25
Speaker
your primary care physician or your gynecologist or your eye doctor, you go to someone else. And so hopefully people are not feeling stuck to remain where they are just because they think that's it. So trying people on for size but not giving up.
Conclusion and Emotional Needs
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, don't give up. There are therapists and I love that. Yeah, ask your therapist to the head experience. Absolutely. And then again, that's that's a lot to put on you. I get it because you're having to put yourself out there and ask the therapist.
00:46:50
Speaker
It's a great way to save yourself time to know if this person is gonna be able to help you or not. Or at least be someone, because again, a therapist can't fix this for you. Like, I can't stop you or I don't have that power, but I can help to listen and have empathy and help you explore and be curious with you and help bring healing alongside with you.
00:47:10
Speaker
Because I do know this, really the only way to heal from this, at least this is my opinion, is really in some type of healthy relationship that you can be vulnerable with. It's not healed in isolation. Yeah, and oftentimes that's with a therapist, you know? So I even like to think of the relationships that I have with my clients.
00:47:30
Speaker
For many people, it's modeling what a healthy relationship with boundaries look like. No, I can't have session at 8 p.m. No, we can't do a two-hour session. Even working within the confines of a boundary, but then also allowing you to explore and
00:47:46
Speaker
cuss and cry and be however you want to be. Hey, let's go there because that's what's important and that's what's going to be therapeutic and healing for you in this moment. And then you get to walk on the other side of that door and face the world based on the tools that you just picked up in here.
00:48:03
Speaker
Um, as I see what come up in the hour, um, but what's like the one or two or three longings that are kind of stuff that maybe men can't even fully articulate initially, but eventually you get to with them. Like, what are some of those like heartfelt needs that they're really looking to get filled? I like how you said one, two or three.
00:48:22
Speaker
So as cliche or as like a marketing professional as this may sound, truly my tagline that men are looking to feel safe, seen and challenged. No, I agree. It goes back to even the attachment lens. I'm thinking of the book. Yeah.
00:48:39
Speaker
by Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson for kids, the power of showing up. And it's all about secure attachment, right? Which is if I'm, if I feel safe with you, I feel seen and secure, right? Or soothed by you and then secure. So we're looking for that sense of connection, really. And no simple, you know, not so simple terms, but really it's connection. It's genuine connection, you know, to feel safe, to feel seen, to feel soothed and secure. And you're just, I love challenge. I think a lot of men do want to feel challenged big time. I do see that a lot.
00:49:08
Speaker
They want to feel challenged, a good challenge in a healthy way. Yeah. Well, Dr. Justin, Justin, thank you so much for coming on. And I know that there's a lot of stuff that we didn't get to address, but it felt good to kind of get this out in the open. And for all those who are listening, feel free to drop a line if you want more on this. We could do some more episodes on this topic. I really hope that this
00:49:34
Speaker
is a resource for you to use. I'm gonna drop Justin's contact information website on here too for those that live in his area who may be looking for therapy, his Instagram, his website, any way to get a hold of him. He's doing good work out there helping men. He's got a great heart, as you can clearly hear in this episode, and he really genuinely cares. And I think that's what men need is genuine care.
00:50:01
Speaker
with patience and grace and I think that's what Justin does. So thank you so much for jumping in this conversation and just getting in there. What a way to make a guy feel special. I appreciate that. Very kind words. I'm gonna keep that as a happy for myself because that was really dope of you. But yes, that's what I'm hoping to do and I hope that that's conveyed on this work that we've been able to do together. So as usual, Travis, it has been a pleasure.
00:50:31
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.