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A Father's Guide to Communicating with Daughters (feat. Kimberly Wolf)
295 Plays1 year ago
In EPISODE 72 we are joined by Kimberly Wolf, an educator, speaker, and parenting strategist. With her background in gender studies and human development, Kimberly has dedicated her career to demystifying girlhood for dads and helping them connect better with their daughters. Her work and perspectives have been featured by outlets including NPR, Forbes, and CNBC. Talk with Her: A Dad’s Essential Guide to Raising Healthy, Confident, and Capable Daughters, released by Penguin, is her first book. The book hits on 19 key conversations providing fathers with a roadmap. Join us for a dive deep into the dynamics of father-daughter relationships and explore the challenges that girls face in today's society. Kimberly shares her wealth of knowledge and expertise, drawing from her own experiences and extensive research to provide practical advice and guidance. We'll discuss everything from fostering open communication and tackling taboo topics with your daughter to navigating the complexities of girlhood, including body image, love, sexuality, and mental health. But Kimberly doesn't stop there. She goes beyond the traditional father-daughter relationship to explore how these skills and insights apply to all relationships in a man's life - with sons, partners, coworkers, and more.
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WEB: https://www.kimberlywolf.com/
BOOK: Talk With Her
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Transcript
Societal Pressure on Men and Vulnerability
00:00:00
Speaker
But men also have tremendous pressure on them to be perfect, to not have flaws, to not show their shortcomings, to not be vulnerable, to not show their cracks. And certainly, you know, we don't want to tell young people too much or show them too much at not an age-appropriate time. But men don't have to be perfect to be present, and they don't have to be perfect to be impactful.
Podcast Introduction and Focus
00:00:26
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:45
Speaker
Welcome everybody to this week's episode of the therapy for dads podcast. I'm very excited to have this guest on the show. So let me do a quick introduction of who she is. And this is Kimberly Wolf, who is a master of education. She's an educator, speaker, educational consultant, and one-on-one parenting strategist. She holds an undergrad degree in gender studies from Brown university and a master's degree in human development and psychology.
00:01:09
Speaker
from the Harvard Graduate School of Education. For almost two decades, she has worked at the intersection of entertainment, technology, and education, bringing thousands of young people the information and strategies they need to optimize their well-being, strengthen their relationships, and fuel their
Introducing Kimberly Wolf and Her Book
00:01:25
Speaker
achievement. Fifteen years into her career, through conversations with friends, colleagues, and collaborators who were fathers of daughters, Kimberly realized she was in a unique position to demystify girlhood for dads.
00:01:37
Speaker
helping them communicate better with their daughters, maximize their parental impact, and inspire young women to reach their potential. Her work and perspective have been featured by outlets including NPR, Forbes, and CNBC. Talk with her, a dad's essential guide, which is right here, if you're watching, if you're listening, you can't see it, so I'm sorry, to Raising Healthy, Confident, and Capable Daughters, released by Penguin, is her first book.
00:02:03
Speaker
And I have to say from already what I've read most of the book, it's profound and I can't wait to dive in a bit deeper. But before we go there, welcome, Kimberly. How are you doing? I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy we connected. Thank you for having me.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I thank you for
Fathers' Influence on Daughters
00:02:19
Speaker
actually reaching out to me. You reach out to me, which was awesome. And I think it took me a second to reply and then he told me the stuff and I looked and you talked about the book. I'm like, yeah, let's talk about it. And then I got a nice gift from you in the mail that was signed and had this nice card in it. And it encouraged me with.
00:02:36
Speaker
you know to be a help me with my relationship with my daughter she's only 18 months by the way she's growing so this is actually I'm prepping I'm ahead of the game and my hope is that this will help dads no matter where they are in the relationship with their daughters whether they're my daughter's age who's
00:02:51
Speaker
only 18 months or if their daughter's 16 years old. I think it's never too late. I think these things are beneficial. So I think this is such an exciting, I'm very excited with this conversation and I think there are, well, there's so many girl dads and from my understanding, you could correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think there's a lot of books that are doing what you're doing here, right? No, I think, you know, who are we if we don't, aren't obsessed with our own work. But I think that Talk With Her is a really singular resource. There are a lot of wonderful parenting books out there.
00:03:19
Speaker
We all hope to bring our own perspective and talk with her as certainly deeply researched, written specifically for girl dads. It focuses in many ways on the pre-teen and teenage years, but what that means is that it's really about the father-daughter relationship throughout the lifespan.
00:03:37
Speaker
And father-daughter relationships really begin as soon as men find out they're having daughters because there's so much people have to say to men who are about to have girls. And that really can set the tone for a lot of men and it sets up a lot of expectation. It sets forth a lot of myth that people kind of then grapple with throughout their relationships with their daughters. And so my hope is that Talk With Her really provides an accessible and actionable roadmap for men.
00:04:07
Speaker
who want to have strong, fulfilling, impactful relationships with their girls throughout their lives. And I can't say from, I've read what I needed to read because the middle section which we'll get to is really just these amazing guide to very specific questions and phases and things that
Men's Fear of Imperfection
00:04:27
Speaker
girls go through to help dads, and I've flipped through it all. And what I can say from how you laid it out, it very much, very much so, is a guide. It's an invitation, it's an encouragement, it's really about equipping dads. I mean, even the language you use, it's really like, here you go, here's the guide, here's, you know, here's things to think about, here's ways of addressing and approaching your daughter, here's how you can prep yourself. So it really is just like this very practical how-to guide
00:04:56
Speaker
Rooted in research that you know, I flipped through your you know, all the notations and yeah, this is grounded in research Which is another why I want you on the show because this isn't just a you know a thought piece in our head Which I appreciate those books and I think anecdotal research is fine. I do it all the time. But having both a
00:05:12
Speaker
real life experience from your experience that is kind of coming out that you had with your father that you kind of talk a bit about in the book but as well as the actual research and data along these topics I think the marriage of the two is beautifully done and I've said it before to you off camera but I'm gonna say it here
00:05:29
Speaker
I think the way in which you talk about dads, the way in which you approach fathers is so refreshing. It's so encouraging. And really just a way to like, if a dad's reading this, they're going to feel invited in, not like shunned, not like you need to change. It's more of like, here, let's, let's help you along. So I love that about this book. And it really, really is evident beginning, middle and end. And so I thank you for that. And I'm excited for dads and men to get this in their hands.
00:05:57
Speaker
Thank you so much for saying that.
Importance of Presence Over Perfection
00:05:59
Speaker
Yes, this certainly was important to me that people felt like this book was for them. And, you know, people, you know, people ask me, you know, how did I write this book? How did I put things together? Well, you know, when I started to look into the research about fathers and daughters, what was interesting to me was so much of it I had just taken for granted. You know, even as somebody who was a scholar of girlhood for
00:06:26
Speaker
many years and I did my master's in girls development and health education and you know I remember I called my dad I say this in the book and I'm like dad was it really that much harder for you to raise me than it was and my sister than it was my brother and I never saw him sweat he was an unbelievable girl dad he still is and he goes oh oh yeah absolutely oh yeah oh yeah
00:06:50
Speaker
It was tough. It was tough. You worry, you worry about your girls. That was his perspective. And when I was looking at the research, a lot of the best practices suggested by the research were reflected in what my dad was doing when I was growing up. And so it was really easy to marry those two things and to use him as an example. And I'm really close with him and I've had a really strong relationship with him throughout the course of my life. I still do. He's still one of my first calls. I talk about him extensively in the book to kind of
00:07:18
Speaker
One of my pediatricians, I have little kids, said to me, parenting books are just from one person's perspective. But it was cool because, of course, I want to write about my own dad and my own girl dad book. But where I write about him is where his actions reflected the research that I was seeing in the best practices. So that made it really easy to do. And so I do hope that people feel invited and that they can feel that they see their reflections in this book and that they're also inspired by what is to come.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah, and I definitely noticed that when you would share stories, if anything, it just, it took the research and made it very applicable and gave a real life example to what you were kind of pulling from and kind of come into conclusion from within the research. So that was, it just made it more realistic and come alive for me as I was reading it.
00:08:05
Speaker
You kind of started talking a little bit about this and why but can you talk a bit more about your background and what kind of really sparked this whole idea? Like why write this book? I know you kind of mentioned a little bit about everyone's ideas but what was kind of the your main passion and drive for this? I was actually launching a Girls Wellness platform that has since morphed and I'm doing a lot of work on
00:08:30
Speaker
school campuses now and media work. I've always worked at the intersection of education and entertainment and entrepreneurship and media. I'm an educational entrepreneur and I'm just really passionate about these kind of large scale projects that will reach people on a broad spectrum. And I was raising money for this girl's health platform after years spent in the field and just taking a lot of what I'd learned in the classroom and in media.
00:08:55
Speaker
marrying it. And I was fundraising meeting men who were investors, venture capitalists, media company heads, foundation heads. And they ended up being a lot of men with adolescent girls. They were taking these meetings with me because they were interested in my project, but also because it was of personal interest to them because they were fathers of daughters. And as a young entrepreneur, I was really focused on just fundraising and getting my own thing off the ground. But what was happening is that
00:09:24
Speaker
At the end of my meetings, people started asking me really personal questions, deeply personal, complex questions about their own relationships with their own daughters and their wives and their co-parents, their ex-wives, their ex-partners, extended family members. And that's when I thought to myself, oh my goodness, first of all, I thought, oh my goodness, everybody in town wants a meeting with you, but you're wondering,
00:09:49
Speaker
how I can help you personally with your daughter at two o'clock on a Tuesday. Of course, that's what you're wondering about, what is more important than our family relationships. And so that is what really got me started. And I just was so fascinated by the field of research around fatherhood. There's only a fraction of the research on fathers that there is on mothers.
00:10:11
Speaker
We are in a very forward-moving point in our history around gender roles, but even for the most progressive fathers who want to do the most for their girls or be there in a new way than their fathers were, their grandfathers were, the resources don't necessarily always pop out to them.
00:10:32
Speaker
or come naturally to them to seek because it's only, you know, because fatherhood has evolved so much in the last five decades. It's still so new. We're living in a new fatherhood now. And so that's what's really fascinating to me is saying, okay, we know what the expectations are for fathers now that are new. We know what the opportunities are, but we need a roadmap. You know, we can't just expect people to know, as I say in May, but mothers have been part of the brain trust for millennia.
00:11:02
Speaker
But father's finding resource and support, asking for it. You know, even my husband, you know, we talk about I'm still kind of the default that the schools call, you know, if something's up with our kid and he wants to know. So that's what's really inspired talk with her. And in terms of the style that I wrote it in, you know, as inspired by the business books that most inspired me.
00:11:25
Speaker
That gave me just a really clear framework and I was inspired by the men I was talking with in these business contexts. And so talk with her has written like a very straightforward, actionable business framework and just giving people the steps and the information and the strategies they need to find personalized information.
Role of Fathers in Mental Health and Well-being
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. Fatherhood has shifted even from my dad and his dad's dad, right? So all these things have shifted. And so in a lot of positive ways, we are seeing a shift of all fathers and more emotionally engaged and kind of the shift of what masculinity can look like and kind of more, maybe more expanded, healthy view. And we're still, we still have a ways to go, I would say. And that's a lot of what I'm trying to do on this platform too, is trying to help do some healing. And, but specifically with this role that with this shift,
00:12:13
Speaker
we still got a ways to go and I would agree with you that there's still not a lot of okay now what okay yeah it's shifting but where are the resources and I think that is definitely a theme in general that I see with with modern day fatherhood there's still there's not a lot of resources but I think there's a lot of expectation
00:12:30
Speaker
for men to just get it and to do whatever this new role is, but there's no like how to, and I think this really begins to fill that gap. And so with these role shift that you're noticing, can you tell us a bit more about the research, what you're seeing and the findings and what kind of stood out to you most? You know, I think that anecdotally and also from the research. So, you know, the research says that if you are an authoritative parent,
00:12:57
Speaker
If you are warm and loving and firm and present in your daughter's life, in your child's life, no matter what parent you are, you can make a lasting impact. And fathers have an impact on everything from body image, overall confidence, mental health, eating habits, fitness habits, social interaction, communication, relational health,
00:13:20
Speaker
long term career achievement. And so not much, not much, not anything. Yeah, nothing. Yeah. And so often we're still putting men in these boxes of better.
00:13:33
Speaker
And a lot of men feel like they're in that box. And frankly, if men are the breadwinner, and that's the only thing they're doing, which is providing food and shelter, the basics, that's still humongous. And so that's not to be diminished. But there's also this pressure, because men are reporting that fatherhood is essential to their, at similar rates to women, that fatherhood is essential to their identity as motherhood is to women.
00:13:58
Speaker
We're talking binaries here, but that's how the research is set up. And so often, I think that what's so striking is that men are not aware of the impact that they can have just by being present. And there's all of this, and being warm and loving, there's all of this pressure, this sense of you have to get it right, the stakes feel so high, that men miss out on how much they're already doing right, and that it's the little things.
00:14:26
Speaker
And I think also, you know, oftentimes men are our grand gesture people or they have a certain way of communicating or a certain way that works for them and their male relationships are in work. They want to fix things. For instance, that doesn't really work with girls. Sometimes girls just want to be heard. As I think about that, the theme is set to me as I was reading is this notion of really about showing up and being present. Can you speak a bit more about that?
00:14:49
Speaker
Yes. So this one's so important. I'll use the story about my dad. When I was in my early twenties, I was working in the Silicon Valley. My dad was down South in LA. I was already in my early twenties. Like I said, that's late adolescence. I think this, this example works. We weren't living together, but we loved Jay Leno and my dad and I was working this crazy job in the Silicon Valley and I would get home at 10 30, 11 at night.
00:15:17
Speaker
And I'd be drinking a smoothie for dinner because I'd be too tired to cook. And my dad would call me and this was before FaceTime and we would watch Jay Leno together at the same time. You know, presence works whether or not you are in the house. There's research that shows that
00:15:35
Speaker
You can be far away. You can be traveling for work. You can be deployed. You can be divorced. You can live in another state, but you can be present. So whether you're living in the house and you see her every day and you pick her up for everything, or you work from home, or you're just sending a text message every day at the same time, setting up FaceTime dates, playing a video game together, watching a movie online, that is what presence is.
00:16:00
Speaker
The other thing that's really important to know about presence when it comes to adolescent girls especially is that they want you around even if they act like they don't even like you.
00:16:10
Speaker
And even if they can't even articulate it, yes, certainly. Like, are there contentious relationships? Are there difficult dynamics when kids don't want their parents around? Do they individuate during adolescence and the pre-adolescent years? Absolutely. But there was this great article by Lisa Danmore, I'll never forget it, in the New York Times called, The Potted Plant Parent or Potted Plant Parents, you can Google it, it'll come up. I mean, it's about just, you know, sometimes they just want you in the room like a potted plant. They don't really want to talk, but they really enjoy you being around.
00:16:38
Speaker
doing something while they're doing something that signals to them that you're there you're present and that when they want to talk that you're there willing to talk and that's a big theme of the book as well is that and I think especially for fathers and so many fathers I interviewed spoke of this I mean if you are the father of a daughter get ready to get shut down if you are an involved daughter if you're an involved father of a daughter get ready to just
00:17:05
Speaker
get really shut down, feel like you're failing, like nothing you're doing is working with her. And I always say that if you feel like you're a loser, like you're really losing, you are winning big. Because that means that you're in her face telling her the good stuff, she's going to roll her eyes at you. She's going to be like, oh, dad, stop embarrassing me. But that is what being present for an adolescent daughter entails.
00:17:29
Speaker
I always tell men that girls are just not the adolescent girls, like daughters in general. I just don't know at any age are we always great at positive feedback for our dads. I'm not sure. I'm better now. I'm an expert in this field, so I'm really aware of it. I've had fathers of daughters in their 30s, 40s, even 50s, family friends of mine who've gotten in touch with me and
00:17:52
Speaker
people who found my work otherwise, who want me to help them understand how to repair their relationships with their daughters in the adult years. And a lot of these dynamics still apply. They'll say, why doesn't she call me back? Or she said that she wanted to have dinner with me and I can't get a hold of her now. And I'm like, I don't know. You should call my dad. I don't know that I always call him back right away. I should call him back faster sometimes. I've got two little kids and it's crazy. And I love him and I think about him all the time.
00:18:22
Speaker
That's what I think is really important about presence, is that these dynamics, being present isn't going to feel like perfection. But when you think about being present and what that means for you,
00:18:34
Speaker
You have to think about the narrative that you want to create and you think into the future and you think, what do I want my daughter to know about how hard I was trying or what I did? What are the specific markers that I made? And, you know, I think this is somewhat about grand gestures because grand gestures can create core memories, you know, like what are you? I'm a big fan of spontaneity.
00:18:58
Speaker
My number one parenting tip is to reclaim weeknight time. That is my number one tip. We can talk more about that later, but that's really, you know, you can do some grand gestures, but it's also about the little moves people make over time.
00:19:10
Speaker
take the pressure off and just be there. However you can, whether it's in person or digitally, by email, if you can't communicate by phone because of your job and people have remote jobs, I've talked to people like this. I know people who've been in prison and they want to know how to communicate better with their girls. So there's a lot of different ways to be present. Can you speak briefly to like kind of the possible outcomes or percentage outcomes when daughters don't have present fathers?
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think it is about present fathers. I think there's a lot of pressure on these research findings, which is they're going to seek attention from other men. And that's the big scary for men. But really, it's all parents. If we're not present for our kids, if we're not helping them stay grounded, if we're not being there for them, if we're not their first call, then who is going to
Impact of Social Media on Mental Health
00:20:02
Speaker
be? And our kids today, we know there's an unprecedented mental health crisis happening.
00:20:07
Speaker
Social media is, you know, in the articulate words of Lady Gaga with regard to young people, especially the toilet of the internet. You know, it's really difficult for us as professionals. We can use it and navigate it. It's even difficult for us sometimes as professionals who I teach media literacy. I know you are, you know, you are active in social media and you're a therapist. You know, we know
00:20:32
Speaker
We know the pitfalls, kids are falling into this. So what they need, what I would say is yes, there is truth to what everybody has heard about how if girls don't have present fathers, then they may seek attention from other men. They may struggle in their romantic relationships later.
00:20:52
Speaker
It's not as relevant for everybody. It's like, be a good man so your daughter will marry a good man. That binary is not quite as relevant for a lot of people now. But yeah, mental health can suffer. There can be long-term trauma from that. There can be senses of abandonment. And all of those things can affect attachment. They can affect overall health and well-being, mental, physical, spiritual, social.
00:21:16
Speaker
And so fathers, I think the focus is really on just how much power they can have if they're just even a little bit consistent in their relationship over time. I think one thing that makes men feel additionally fearful is this sense that men have to be perfect. There's a lot of talk about how women have to be perfect and women have to do it all and moms have to do it all grounded entirely in truth.
00:21:44
Speaker
And there's also this narrative that girls feel a lot of pressure to be perfect and that that pressure can be very debilitating for girls. That's widely talked about in our culture. But men also have tremendous pressure on them.
00:22:01
Speaker
to be perfect, to not have flaws, to not show their shortcomings, to not be vulnerable, to not show their cracks. And certainly, you know, we don't want to tell young people too much or show them too much at not an age-appropriate time. But men don't have to be perfect to be present, and they don't have to be perfect to be impactful. And like I said, I mean, I've talked to people who have been in jail. I've talked to people who have been on drugs. I've talked to people who were absent from their girls' lives.
00:22:30
Speaker
I've talked to daughters who had all of those types of fathers. And I've seen even some of the toughest dynamics been able to be healed. And there are strategies for repairing relationships. There are strategies for apologizing. There are strategies for talking to girls about, and young people in general, for all parents, of all kids, of all genders, about what someone's past might have looked like.
00:23:00
Speaker
and that it's okay that people do come out of really tough circumstances and are able to be there for their kids. I mean, love is one of my favorite subjects to teach. I teach courses to high schoolers on the essentials of love, and a lot of parents feel like
00:23:19
Speaker
They don't know at all what to tell their kids, especially if they've had a rough road themselves, but there's so much wisdom in that. You know, everybody learns by trial and error, especially in love. So I think that that's really important to focus on is what can you be there present to teach, even if you're not perfect. And by the way, nobody is. There needs to be more discussion of that.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely something I picked up as I was reading this idea of letting go of perfection and the importance of revealing the flaws and imperfection through failure that we learn and that we show up. And again, age appropriate, obviously, of course, and sharing appropriate things at certain ages. But still this notion of it's not about perfection, but it's sharing how you've learned from those mistakes through failure.
00:23:58
Speaker
I think it speaks to a lot of men, you know, men can get stuck in that thing of, I need to be perfect and not show, you know, it goes into some of the way we've been socialized, don't show these things, it's weakness, all this, you know, all that stuff that we know, but actually how valuable it is for your daughters to hear that and to hear this, this real person, this real man, this real guy, which I think it, I think invites her, I would say, to be able to share her, her cracks too, right? Her, her thing she was navigating through. And I think you, you kind of share that as well in the, in the book of, of, you know, allowing this to come in.
00:24:27
Speaker
And I'm wondering, as we're thinking about some of the key, the main, you cover a lot of topics in here, it really is like this roadmap, but what do you think are the most important conversations that fathers really need to have with their daughters?
00:24:44
Speaker
It's so hard. I think there are so many things that seem just specific to girlhood, body image, love, sexuality, mental health. Mental health is an issue for all genders, but it is specifically highlighted for girls, often in our culture. And I think that the main tip is
00:25:10
Speaker
If there's anything that your daughter would benefit by talking about, then a father should be partaking in that, in part of that conversation. And yes.
00:25:20
Speaker
perhaps she would be more comfortable talking with someone with female anatomy about her period. And that might, that other, you know, a female caregiver, a female parent or an aunt or whoever, they might have some specific insight in there, right? But even just signaling and this is, you know, kind of, you know, a standard suggestion is like being like, do you need any feminine products? Or can I get you anything? Or do you need anything?
00:25:44
Speaker
you know, not period shaming. Yeah. I like that. That was one of the key tips is no period shaming. That was well, yeah. I guess it needs to be said, apparently. It does. Yeah. Because I think that it's a really easy one. Um, I think it's, you know, dad jokes are a thing. And I think a lot of times when things get difficult, people resort to humor and when things get difficult, people will be like, you know, resort to old tropes, which is, you know, are you on your period or, you know, why are you talking to me like that?
00:26:13
Speaker
So your question was, you know, what are the main conversations to have mentioned not shy away from any conversation that would benefit from their daughter. And when it comes to kind of sticking the landing on those conversations, the key is in having some prep. You know, that's what I compile in these chapters in my book. There's 19 topics.
00:26:34
Speaker
everything from body positivity to mental health, substance use, friends, bullying, peer pressure, drama, social media, an academic achievement, sex, love, breakups, college, career, financial literacy.
00:26:49
Speaker
It's all the stuff that like teens are facing and that girls are facing. And that's what I'm saying. It's like literally a roadmap of all the main things that I hear actually in my office all the time with. Yeah, it's the foundational girls. Yeah, it's the foundational information that every girl needs to navigate her world. And the main channels for understanding that information, though we feel like it's TikTok and Instagram and social and their friends, you know, parents being there as study influences continuously
00:27:18
Speaker
coming forth with these messages and information and these signals that they are there to talk that is very powerful and oftentimes more powerful than the media influence at hand. And so in terms of the really big things that the biggest issues facing girls, it's a hard question to answer because it's individual, right?
Influence of Pornography and Intimacy Discussions
00:27:41
Speaker
But the big themes, if you talk to a lot of us experts,
00:27:44
Speaker
you know, obviously social media is a big one and managing technology and technological health, but doing it in a way that isn't like your generation doesn't know how to communicate and why are you wasting so much time? You know, this isn't, this isn't other to them. It's part of their being their digital natives. They grew up in this. And so taking a positive tack to say to them, look, this, this is, can be a really powerful tool. We also know there's a lot of risks.
00:28:12
Speaker
I saw this interview with Jennifer Garner. I loved it on The Today Show where she said, I just tell my kids, find the articles for me that say that social media is good for teenagers and then you guys can have it. I saw that too. They don't exist. In fact, I think a recent article came out. You may have seen it about actually not to give social media kids before high school. Right. Yeah, it was just recently came out, I think. I forget who did it. I'll have to look it up later. And now for a short break.
00:28:37
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:28:53
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show. I think another topic that is important to highlight, and I'll say I'm a sex ed teacher by trade and I teach love, as I mentioned, I now teach, you know, we used to teach sex ed one way where we just teach a million facts and 15 different
00:29:23
Speaker
things about chlamydia, you know, now kids have a lot of information and misinformation at their fingertips. So we really need to help them understand what they actually need to know, take care of themselves. But one thing that's really important to address directly or indirectly is the impact of pornography, which if you talk to again, if you talk to a variety of experts, we'll tell you that that is something that's extremely concerning. Because even if kids are not, even if young people are not watching that pornography, even if your daughter is not watching pornography,
00:29:52
Speaker
Ornography has had a profoundly negative effect on the way that people perceive intimacy, their expectations about intimacy, their ability to experience intimacy for young women. You know, I've seen this in my own practice. I see it in the anonymous questions that I get in my classes from girls, you know, and I've had girls approach me about different things. Themes that we know are present in porn, certain sexual positions, certain sexual dynamics.
00:30:20
Speaker
things that, you know, my boyfriend's asking me to do this. Do I have to do this? Does this feel good for girls? Do I have to do this? He wants me to do this. Is this, you know, whether or not we discuss directly the impact of porn, which is important the way that I do it in my classes and my what I tell parents is I just say, look, whether or not people are watching this, it has an impact. It's having a negative impact on the way that people experience intimacy. But what's really important to know about
00:30:48
Speaker
Intimacy with somebody is that it should feel like this Whatever the value is it should be safe Shouldn't feel forced. It shouldn't feel
00:30:58
Speaker
performative necessarily for the other person. It needs to feel like there's a balance of power dynamics. You know, certainly there are different themes that people will explore and people have different sexual preferences, different things that, you know, they want to experience. But at the baseline, we want people to have healthy, romantic lives.
Fathers' Role in Self-worth and Boundaries
00:31:20
Speaker
You need to help them understand what that actually looks like because broader culture is running counter that right now in some majorly negative ways.
00:31:28
Speaker
I'm wondering what's the importance of having dads having a conversation with their daughters? Why is that important? So when fathers speak with their girls about any topic and sensitive topics like this, and if their daughters end up in relationships later on with men, it's very, very powerful to have the practice talking with somebody of a different gender about kind of awkward or taboo things.
00:31:58
Speaker
It's good practice to understand, it's a really strong signal that men can send their daughters that they care. I care about you so much that I'm actually gonna have this conversation with you about something that makes me feel like I'm going to disintegrate into thin air because it's so uncomfortable for me to talk about. I'm gonna have this conversation with you because I'm up to talk with you about anything. I'm up to talk with you about stuff that will make us both cringe.
00:32:28
Speaker
I'm up to talk with you about serious stuff that we both care about whenever you're ready. And it will help her gain confidence. It will help her understand that she can say no to things that don't feel good to her, that she's not comfortable with. It's really beneficial for girls when fathers talk with them and helping them understand how to set boundaries, being able to speak comfortably with men. Many times there's a power dynamic between men and women where women feel
00:32:55
Speaker
Like they're in this subordinate or this scared role. It plays out not just in, you know, romantic context, but you know, when men talk with their daughters and they see them as equals and they look them in the eye and talk with them and give them the facts and show them that they're valued and are very specific and direct that they should be valued and deserve to be valued in whatever context that will translate in many areas of their lives. It can't be understated.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, and something anecdotally I would say, generally speaking, from the teenage girls that I see in my office, the ones that are struggling the most, and this is making a general statement, themes I'm pulling out, is deaf, I would say, having fathers who are really not engaged or distant, and these are girls that are struggling with pretty much everything we're talking about right now, social media, sex stuff, friend stuff, drama, you know, body and all the stuff that you're laying out here in the book,
00:33:53
Speaker
When I get to another story, the relationship with dad tends to be either non-existent or not very good or very weak. And so that's obviously anecdotal research, but I see it so often. I mean, I see it all the time. And I always hear this longing too at the core of who they are to have this relationship with their dad, wanting to be seen, wanting to be loved, wanting to be connected to. And something else I noticed when you said, dad's gonna be involved is it's a lot of listening.
00:34:22
Speaker
You know, it's a lot of non-judgment, but listening without necessarily solving the problem. And sometimes you do, right? But the theme I was picking up was, listen, pay attention, ask questions, be curious. Can you speak a little bit about that? Like, why is that that's an important way of approaching this with their daughters? Yeah. And I think, you know, again,
00:34:43
Speaker
things have changed a lot when it comes to gender binaries, so I'm sensitive to that. But I think that there's also, and this has been my language for a long time, but...
00:34:53
Speaker
You know, oftentimes girls just want to bet and they'll go round and round and round in circles and they'll talk about the same stuff or they'll hang out with people who you don't really feel like they should be hanging out with. They'll engage in drama. You don't understand why they'll have emotional highs and lows that feel really unfamiliar to you or trivial. And they may want to talk about stuff that feels really insufferable.
00:35:18
Speaker
And what they want is just to be able to have a safe space to just talk about it. And that's how they connect. You know, I've had people say, you know, she doesn't ask me how I am. She's so self-centered. Well, that's biologically correct. Teenagers, biologically. Yeah, developmentally is appropriate. They're egocentric, yeah.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, developmentally, that's what it is, right? You're not going to get necessarily a lot back. And that's okay. And so, yeah, developmentally, that's absolutely correct that she's going to be kind of self-centered and there's going to be drama. And what she needs is
00:35:57
Speaker
this steady presence, I think, you know, asking girls what they want. Do you want me to listen to you? Do you want me to do you want to go do something fun? Do you want me to just sit here with you and watch something? Do you want our folks next to each other? You want me to sit with you and do my work while you finish your homework? What do you feel like
00:36:16
Speaker
would help, or do you just want me to listen? Even if she's like, none of the above, I don't want to see you, I'm going to my room. It's as many times as you can signal that you're there when she wants you to be there. You have to hold the line as a dad.
00:36:29
Speaker
You know, and a lot of what I say applies to all parents, but I'm, you know, we're talking about fathers and daughters and you just have to hold the line, you know, and it can be frustrating and it can feel really thinkless and you just stick with it. You just stick with her. You just keep talking with her until she comes and talks to you. That's what I talk about in the book.
00:36:49
Speaker
So what would you say to dads? Well, she says she doesn't want to talk and she heaps. So what, at what point do I respect that boundary? Do I keep pushing? I guess that that's a question I think would be asked, right? Yeah. And I get that question all the time. Yeah. Girls are not going to want to talk sometimes and sometimes they're not going to want to talk to their dads. Sometimes they're not going to want to talk to their parents sometimes for years at a time.
00:37:12
Speaker
And sometimes this is developmental, and sometimes it's about her, and sometimes it's because somebody's messed up, a parent has done something to interfere with trust and interfere with relationship, and it's worth self-reflecting and getting some help and talking with some other parents and some experts to see what might have happened there. No matter what your daughter is going through, no matter whether or not she's responsive, it's always my suggestion that again, you think into the future and you think about the narrative you wanna create
00:37:42
Speaker
that there's always a chance for reconnection. There's always a chance for connection. Keep sending that text every week. Send those letters. Send the cards on their birthdays. Do what you can to be present. If you need to apologize for something, if you need to try and make it right, we can't make people forgive. We can't make daughters connect. But we can certainly signal that we are there doing the best that we can. And when it comes to your daughter really not talking and really not opening up,
00:38:11
Speaker
It's really important that parents circle the wagons, you know, give some other people a power of attorney. You know, is it the counselor at school? Is it an aunt? Who will they speak with? They need to talk to somebody and we can't just let them kind of like waste away and spend all their time down the rabbit hole in their phones.
00:38:30
Speaker
They may not always want to talk to parents for a variety of different reasons, as I mentioned. And sometimes, you know, there's a few reasons, you know, they don't want to, they're not sure if they're normal. If something's happening with them, if they're depressed or if they have something going on with their body or something happened to them in a relationship with their main bully or they were sexually assaulted. They don't, all of those things make people feel like they're the only one.
00:38:50
Speaker
They also don't want to disappoint their parents if they reveal some imperfection, especially if there's any kind of discord in the relationship. And thirdly, they don't want to get in trouble. So, you know, there's a lot of reasons girls may not want to talk. There's a lot of reasons they may not want to talk for a little while.
00:39:07
Speaker
There's other reasons they might not want to talk for years or it's really hard to connect over
Kimberly's Book as a Roadmap
00:39:11
Speaker
time. But if it's really, really hard to connect over time, then it's really important to pull in that support team. And it's difficult. It's really heartbreaking for people. It's one of those really difficult life circumstances, but there are ways to navigate it to make sure that one's daughter is safe and that
00:39:27
Speaker
you know, the father and the other parents are being cared for as well. And I talk about that at the end of the book. Yeah, it's a great actually section just about that. Actually at the end of the book, it's really good. Could you give a little bit of like a couple of the roadmap of where to start with that, you know, and just to give a little preview of what's in the book about, okay, how do I start to reconnect or have a conversation with my daughter? You know, don't go over the whole thing because I want people to read it, but it's like step one and two.
00:39:51
Speaker
So again, you know, talk with her is your guide to girls world. Welcome to girl world for people who did not grow up girls themselves. It is a specific place. So it starts out the introduction. I always tell people, you know, some people are like, I haven't read the whole book yet. I'm like, well, the book isn't necessarily
00:40:09
Speaker
designed so that people have to read it from cover to cover. It's designed, you read the intro chapters and you see where you want to go. So the intro chapters are about the adolescent experience. You know, what are girls specifically facing? What are some of the major things to look out for? What are the roles of fathers? How has fatherhood changed? 30 strategies that are pulled from
00:40:30
Speaker
not just psychology and not just family therapy, but also, you know, high level leadership and negotiation frameworks because, you know, those are some of the most powerful communication tools there are. In the center of the book is our 19 briefs on the key topics that we discussed before, mental health, media literacy, bullying, social media, drama, sex, love, career,
00:40:55
Speaker
financial literacy. And in those briefs which were inspired by my time working for executives and prepping them for their meetings early on in my career, they're very laid out with, you know, what should your goal be? Here's some traps to avoid. Here is the main research that you need to know because I think
00:41:13
Speaker
that part of what makes topics so difficult to address with young people is that the stakes feel really high, but the topics are really diffuse and the research and the information is overwhelming. So these briefs tell people where to start on any of these topics. Here's what you need to know. Here's your baseline of information. So you can walk into this, you know, it's designed like a business book, like I said, like walk into this meeting.
00:41:38
Speaker
you know, walk into this conversation with your daughter and be ready. And obviously one book cannot speak to the variety and the expansiveness of the human experience. And so what this book is about is about here's the, here's where you start. And if you need to get further, here's where you go. It highlights the leading organizations that handle each issue with adolescents. We talk about the child mind Institute, the Trevor project, which is the leading,
00:42:08
Speaker
one of the leading organizations preventing LGBTQ plus youth suicide. It is, you know, we also highlight some of the major authors and other experts in the field, key researchers to keep track of so that parents know where to start from this book and also know where to go from this book.
00:42:28
Speaker
And the ending chapters talk about how to build your support team. For a time I was a school counselor for years and I would sit in my counseling office and I would get these calls from parents who were worried about a mental health issue, a learning difference, a social issue their kid was having. And they had no idea of the resources that were available to them. I know I'm a parenting strategist. I do one-on-ones, but there's also, you know, as part of my practice, I refer people out to the other people that they need to seek.
00:42:55
Speaker
Who are the correct therapists? Do you need a psychiatrist? Should you check in with a learning specialist? Do you need a therapist? Is there a family counselor? What kind of program? What other activities? And then the FAQ section, which is Father's Asking Questions, one of my favorites, which is all about just the real questions that really inspired this book.
00:43:16
Speaker
And they were questions about not just about girls, but about men and about manhood and about how that interacts with being a good father to a young woman and how masculinity plays into that and how partner dynamics play out and what you can do to navigate them. So that's the short version. You know, there's a lot I can say about my book, but I think, you know, the main thing is it's just an actionable framework to deal with something that is
00:43:46
Speaker
where the stakes are high and emotions are high, but there is a road not to follow and people don't have to reinvent the wheel. I say that all the time. Yeah. And of the FAQs that dads were asking, like, what is one that really stood out to you? You know, the ones that really were, that really, that really inspired you. That's like, yeah, this question, I really want to make sure I'm helping men and fathers better address. Like what was the one that kind of like bubbles to the surface for you? I think there are so many, but I think one of the umbrella,
00:44:14
Speaker
umbrella questions really one of the one that carried a lot of themes under it was how do I talk to my wife? What do I do when I feel like I'm working so hard all day long in my job and every minute I'm spending I'm doing it for her and our kids and I come through the door and she makes me feel like I'm just not doing enough and I don't know what I'm doing and I'm trying but I feel like I keep falling short in her eyes and I think
00:44:43
Speaker
That just went to that. That was those questions are moving for me because that is certainly not how partners want their partner to feel when they walk in the door.
00:44:57
Speaker
And I think that it is a lot about this myth and a lot about the expectation men feel and this sense that they don't know that it's normal to feel like you're kind of failing with your daughters and that's like normal and you're probably doing a lot.
Personal Experiences and Broader Applications
00:45:09
Speaker
And they want to do, you know, men want to do more, but you know, it's just sort of this kind of massive expectations for every parent. And you know, there's a lot of resources helping mom deal with the expectations of parenthood.
00:45:23
Speaker
and the imperfection of parenthood and the pressure and the difficulty and the challenge. But I think we need more of that from it. And the other questions I got, you know, the first one that I ever got was from an investor and I, you know, I really just wanted him to write me a check. I've told him this. He was a, you know, he's become a very close personal friend. I was like, I just really want to do to invest in my company. And he said, I just have one more question. And I thought this was like my chance to like land the investment.
00:45:51
Speaker
And he's like, I just got divorced. Can I start dating again? Or is that going to hurt my daughter? And I just think that, you know, I want to create opportunities for men to have those conversations.
00:46:06
Speaker
more often and find those answers because those are real questions. And again, like relationships are the most important thing we have in life. And so helping men navigate that is something that I feel very passionate about. And we had talked about this a little bit, but you know, when it comes to this book about father-daughter relationships,
00:46:31
Speaker
Everybody can agree that that's a really difficult dynamic, or it can be. Even if it's not laden with difficulty, it's one that's high pressure. You really want to do well in that relationship. That's really important. I love their daughters. Girls need their dads. But the truth is that this book isn't just about fathers and daughters. This book
00:46:52
Speaker
you know, is about helping men unlock the power and potential of their relationships across contexts. Because the truth is, is that if you can master these dynamics with your children, you can master these dynamics with other people in your life, it's all the same skill set. I tell kids this all the time, when I'm teaching them about romantic relationships, you know, this isn't just about
00:47:15
Speaker
you and romance. A lot of kids are just not even interested in that. This is about how do we care about people? How do we show that we care? How do we take care of ourselves? How do we communicate with other people? How do we build connection over time?
00:47:28
Speaker
Hmm, and I think we talked about this before and I thought that was such a as I was reading this the themes I was noticing as a therapist as a you know, man, I do couples therapy I do individual therapy so I see these things and and and working with men and trying to Help them navigate kind of the stuff they're going through within our current day and age of healing some of the you know, they're looking at more positive masculinities and how do we
00:47:53
Speaker
adapt really to this environment that we're in you know really did pick up those themes that you're putting in here that yeah I think the Trojan horse I would say I was talking to a friend of mine you know we kind of Trojan horse a lot of the stuff in for for men of like really it's about your daughters but like you said it really does apply to really all relationships in essence and the themes I kept hearing time and time again was showing up be present listen and
00:48:18
Speaker
and guide and challenge. It's both about high connection and presence, even if I feel like you're not doing anything, but still being consistent and showing up and almost being very apparent letting your daughter know that you are there. And I love the pot. I need to read the article, but yeah, it's like being that pot. Sometimes that is
Embracing Imperfection and Next Steps
00:48:38
Speaker
showing up. It's like,
00:48:39
Speaker
That's, that's consistency. And one day she might, you know, say something, right? And then, then you're there. It's like, but you got to have those pot moments, I guess, if you, well, that might come out wrong, but you know what I mean? The pot moments. You have to have those potted plant moments. The potted plant moments, not pot moments. That's correct. The potted plant moments with your daughter. And those translate to your relationship with everyone else, your partner, your son, even.
00:49:05
Speaker
co-workers, right? I mean, people that you employ or you employed by, because these are really life skills. And it's also honoring the role of the father, honoring who men are, who we are, as well as saying, yes, here's what you're doing well, and you really do a good job acknowledging the strengths of men and saying, here's what you're doing well, and here's some things to help you become even better, to become even more awesome, to become even more engaged, to become more of a superstar, right? Become more of that,
00:49:33
Speaker
you know, really that hero that, but a realistic hero, right? A flawed hero that they can show and reveal himself and be an authentic self to his daughter. So by the way, those that don't know, we're gonna have a special coming up. So a little preview and we'll close out, but in a few weeks from release of this episode, we're gonna be having a live Q&A and everything will be posted on the socials once this comes out. So if you're listening this far, know that there's also a social post on my Instagram and everywhere else to have a live Q&A with.
00:50:01
Speaker
with both of us to ask, come to the harder questions and some other fun surprises. So in the meantime, where can we find you? Where can we find your work? If people want to reach out and get to know you more and what you do and get the book, where, where is all that? Okay. So you can find me on Instagram, Kimberly Wolf author. That's where the bulk of my videos are. You can also find me on Tik TOK and Kimberly wolf.com is my website. You can contact me right through there.
00:50:29
Speaker
I usually answer all of my own emails. So if you need, if you have any questions about my work, if you're interested in one-on-one parenting strategy, I do do those sessions. People ask me all the time, do you do one-on-ones? Yes, I do. So get in touch with me, but come see me on social. I talk a lot. I answer questions on my social a lot. And that is one of my favorite parts of my work. So hope to see you there.
00:50:53
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for this amazing piece of work. And I can't wait for more men to get this and have conversations and to have this guide as a, as really a foundational piece to start from and to answer so many helpful questions. And yeah, I just can't wait for this to hopefully just create a revolution. So thank you. Have an awesome rest of your day and we'll definitely talk soon. All right. I'll see you soon. See ya.
00:51:19
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.