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Understanding Secure Attachment: Insights and Q&A on the Power of Showing Up (feat. Dr Tina Bryson)
283 Plays1 year ago
In EPISODE 71 of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, host Travis Goodman, LMFT, and guest, Dr Tina Bryson, delve into the book, The Power of Showing Up. They discuss the importance of availability and presence, recognizing and respecting a child's individual reactions when upset, and providing a secure attachment response. They emphasize the need for clear boundaries and limits while offering comfort and validation. The conversation touches on various attachment styles, the impact of parenting on mental health, and the significance of quality time and connection. Listeners are encouraged to reflect, learn, and evolve as parents, while also being reminded to prioritize their own well-being.
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson is the author of The Bottom Line for Baby and co-author (with Dan Siegel) of two NY Times Best Sellers—The Whole-Brain Child and No-Drama Discipline—each of which has been translated into over fifty languages, as well as The Yes Brain and The Power of Showing Up. She is the Founder and Executive Director of The Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary clinical practice in Southern California. Dr. Bryson keynotes conferences and conducts workshops all over the world. An LCSW, Tina is a graduate of Baylor University with a Ph.D. from USC. Learn more at TinaBryson.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Reintroduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the Therapy for Dad's podcast. I have a return guest, Dr. Tina Bryson. She was previously on the podcast for episode 65, which was titled Discipline, Punishment versus Teaching. Great episode. If you haven't checked it out, go listen to it. Share it with whomever you think would benefit. But this week, she came back on, and we did a live recording on my YouTube channel, all on her book, The Power of Showing Up.
00:00:29
Speaker
And it was great, great conversation. We were able to field some live questions as well. And so this podcast, the audio version, I cut a couple pieces out just to make it more audio friendly for the audio only episode. If you want to check out the full recording and everything and you could watch the live on my YouTube channel, just go to www.youtube.com forward slash Travis Goodman and you could find it there under the live video tab.
Contact and Podcast Overview
00:00:54
Speaker
and watch it there. A little bit about who Dr. Tina Bryson is, if you don't know her already. Well, she is the author of her most recent book, The Bottom Line for Baby, and she's the co-author, along with Dr. Dan Siegel, of two New York Times bestsellers, The Whole Brain Child and No Drama Discipline, each of which have been translated into over 50 languages, as well as The Yes Brain in the book that we covered on the live, The Power of Showing Up.
00:01:20
Speaker
She's the founder and executive director of the Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary clinical practice in Southern California. She keynotes conferences and conducts workshops all over the world. As an LCSW, she is a graduate of Baylor University and she also holds a PhD from USC. For more information on her, just go to TinaBryson.com.
00:01:44
Speaker
And check this out. I cannot wait to hear your feedback from this episode. If you have any further questions, email me at therapyfordads at gmail.com. You can also find me over at Instagram at therapyfordads. And again, the YouTube channel is youtube.com forward slash Travis Goodman. I'll see you in there.
00:02:08
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband.
Understanding Secure Attachment
00:02:15
Speaker
Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched, evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome. And so, which brings us to really about tonight, which is the book. And so if you were to boil it down, this book into kind of, you know, a little elevator pitch, like what is this book really about?
00:02:39
Speaker
This book is about the 70 plus years of cross-cultural longitudinal research.
00:02:46
Speaker
that show that one of the best predictors for how well kids turn out is that they have what's called secure attachment with at least one person. And obviously, the more attachment figures they have, the better. And so really, if that's one of the best predictors for how well our kids turn out, and that's on everything they're measured on. I mean, this really is everything from social and emotional intelligence to leadership abilities, to healthy relationships, to academic outcomes, all of these things.
00:03:15
Speaker
Um, that it's really about having that secure attachment relationship. So that should be our really our, our top of the list, if not number one, number one B for what we give to our kids. And so what this book is about the power of showing up.
00:03:33
Speaker
is about what that looks like. How do we do it? And so we talk about the way you get a child who is securely attached to you, which influences how their entire brain and developmental pathway unfolds is by providing them with the four S's.
Generational Patterns of Attachment
00:03:51
Speaker
And the four S's I know will go through. And so it's really not just something we do, it's definitely something we do, but it's also a way of being as a parent. And that's what we call it about the power of showing up. It really is about showing up. And that if we practice these four S's not perfectly,
00:04:12
Speaker
But predictably enough, our children will develop secure attachment with us, it will change how their brains are wired, and it'll change generationally.
00:04:22
Speaker
how our children become partners and parents themselves. There's a huge, huge, I believe the latest statistics showed like 75 to 78% intergenerational transmission. And there's a little bit of a gap there that the science is still exploring around why it's not 100%. And actually to me, that's the most interesting part where there's a lot of hope.
00:04:48
Speaker
We can get into that, too. But it's the idea that if I provide secure attachment to my kid, there's a 75 to 78 percent chance he's going to provide that to his kid on and on and on. Pretty high. Yeah, it's it's it really is something is because.
00:05:03
Speaker
When we receive secure attachment, our brains wire to expect that that's how relationships are. And it's who we become. It's how our brains get wired for how to do relationships. And so there are certainly things that can interrupt that, obviously. But to me, like I said, the gap is really interesting, too, because the number one predictor for how well we are able to provide this secure attachment to our own children
00:05:29
Speaker
is not whether or not we actually had it. Even though there's that huge correspondence, the biggest predictor is whether or not we've reflected on those experiences and made sense of them, the kinds of upbringing we had. And if you have a secure attachment with your caregiver, if you grew up with that,
00:05:46
Speaker
Your brain is actually wired to automatically have the capacity to reflect and make sense of your life experiences or have what's called a coherent narrative. But me, that little gap that we talked about of what about the other like so 25% or so.
00:06:01
Speaker
And to me, that's the interesting, exciting part because the number one predictor, like I said, is not whether or not you had it, but whether you made sense of the experiences you had, what you didn't get from your parents, why they didn't provide that to you and how it impacted who you are and how you developed and the kind of person you are as a parent.
00:06:18
Speaker
And when we do that, we get what's called earned secure attachment. And so we grew up with a more insecure pattern of attachment, of which there are several types, that history is not destiny, that the kinds of experiences we had
00:06:36
Speaker
We can reflect on them, make sense of them, and then become a person who is wired as if you had secure attachment. And we're able to provide that to our own children and in our relationships.
Therapy and Attachment Styles
00:06:48
Speaker
And by the way, I know we haven't really defined what attachment is, and we can certainly do that. But attachment is not just a parent-child thing. It's not just a baby bonding thing. It's not just something that an infant or child needs. It's actually a need throughout our whole lifespan.
00:07:03
Speaker
So what I most need in my relationship with my husband, and we will have been married 30 years in February, coming up on our 30 year anniversary. Congratulations. Congratulations. I was 22 and I got married and he was 25. So we kind of grew up together. Our brains weren't even wired, fully wired, but
00:07:24
Speaker
Luckily, we we figured it out along the way and continue to figure it out. But I think that that's so important to know that history is not destiny. And I mean that in terms of like the longitudinal research, like the kind of parenting you had is not necessarily the parent you have to become good or bad. But I also mean it in terms of the conversation we're about to have. Because what this means is we're going to talk through what does this look like?
00:07:51
Speaker
How do we make sure our kids get this if it's that important? What's so exciting is
00:07:59
Speaker
whatever happened an hour before you came on to listen to this or happened yesterday or last month or the last however many years you've been parenting, none of that is your destiny either. That you hopefully, my hope and I know yours Travis too because we're both mental health professionals and we support people in their ongoing journeys of growth.
00:08:22
Speaker
My hope is actually gonna sound really, really weird. Okay, this is weird. My hope is that all of you listening at some point will have a little pang of discomfort where you're like, oh man, I wish I had known about this or oh God, I really blew that earlier today. Or oh my gosh, that's not what I'm doing. And I know that's a weird wish.
00:08:46
Speaker
But for me, what that means is if you never have that that paying of discomfort or regret as a parent, what that tells me is that you're not reflecting. Hmm.
00:08:58
Speaker
you're not growing and you're not evolving. Because for me, I'm learning things all the time. And when I learned them, I'm like, God, I really wish I had known that or wow, I wish I had done that differently. And that is that is a reflection that I'm growing and evolving and changing and and that I'm I'm reflecting on it and looking at it and trying to grow. It's just like if I
00:09:21
Speaker
um read my middle school diary when I was 13 and if I read that tonight if I which never do but if I got that out Javis and I started reading it and you and I were both like wow that's really insightful and mature like you just just keep thinking that the rest of your life like what would that say about our development like I read that and I'm like oh that's so mortifying like how embarrassing and that's because I am a 51 year old and I now
00:09:47
Speaker
um think differently than i did when i was 13 thank goodness so i guess i agree and i agree too that i also think differently than when i was 13 15 is a whole other that's a whole other episode it is it is and yeah yeah but i do think that um
00:10:05
Speaker
What I want people to hear in everything you've just been saying is there's tons of hope. Yes. We don't have to be perfect. Yes. And I hope tonight you'll hear something or today, whenever you're listening to this, that you'll hear something and it will inspire you to rewire what your brain works and how your child's brain works. And we're going to give you lots of ways to do that.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I could not agree more. Part of being a therapist clinician is that we believe that people can change that there, and there's not only believe, but also there is backed research evidence to show that people can rewire, especially when it comes to attachment injuries or if they have an insecure attachment style, which we'll talk briefly about those.
00:10:53
Speaker
quick overview what they are and then we'll gun into the book. And something else I really appreciate about this book too is that there is a theme throughout the book. You guys hit it on time and time again. And I'm assuming that was intentional was it's not about being perfect at all, but it's about showing up being present. And when you do make the mistake, cause we all do is it's that repair. It's that coming back and saying it's about generally speaking,
00:11:19
Speaker
Generally speaking, if you're doing this, that will create the space to develop a secure attachment. And that even if you come from a place in the first quarter of this book, guys, if you haven't read this book, it's a great book. It's very practical. The first quarter of the book is really a reflection on you and kind of asking questions about, is this what you received? And you start to kind of see yourself in these pages of like, maybe, oh, that kind of reminds me of my childhood a little bit.
00:11:45
Speaker
And sometimes for some of us the question i've heard a lot of is like, okay Well now what I have this insecure type. Am I kind of screwed and yeah the beautiful news that Not only that we're just saying this out loud and into the universe but which we are but also that it's backed by like you said and that i've read a lot of as well as Study after study after study after study after study shows that you can earn a secure attachment and healing in fact a lot of therapy You know pulling back the curtain
00:12:15
Speaker
A lot of therapy is that for a lot of people the therapist is that secure base for the very first time? Spoiler alert that's kind of what's happening often in therapy is that we often are that safe haven
The Four S's of Secure Attachment
00:12:25
Speaker
for the very first time for some people We're the first they've ever experienced and so part of that is insecure in a safe space They can heal some of these wounds and develop that secure attachment. So let's define What's attachment and and what are the quick quick overview of the of the insecure types? Then we'll jump into kind of the four S's
00:12:45
Speaker
Attachment is an inborn instinct for mammals. That purpose is to help us have a better chance of survival. Okay, so that's at its base what it is. So as human babies, and really this is true for mammal babies, but especially human babies, we need caregivers to take care of basic needs for a long period of time before we're able to do those on our own. And so the way the attachment system works is, you know, if you're a little bear cub in the forest,
00:13:15
Speaker
And you see a predator or you get hurt or you something terrifies you or some sort of threat happens or you have a need. You have a biological instinct to run to your attachment figure to get close to or what we call proximity to your attachment figure, because if you are close to your attachment figure, if you have a need or there is a threat present, your attachment figure is supposed to help you be connected and protected.
00:13:45
Speaker
And so, you know, the baby bear cub runs to mama bear or mama bear notices and gets close to bear cub. And that's going to make it far less likely that harm will come to baby bear cub. So it's a biological instinct that is especially activated during times of stress and distress.
00:14:06
Speaker
So when our babies cry, that's a signal that says I have a need or something doesn't feel right in my body or something has frightened me or something's not working. That activates the parent then to go respond to what's called proximity seeking behavior and to see and determine what the need is and respond quickly and sensitively to take care of that need.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I want to kind of take it one level deeper. And that is that what's really happening there is like I think about how like when I've I may have given this example before. But you know, when I take my my dog to the vet, and she's she is attached to me, I'm her secure attachment figure along with several other members of our family. And when she she's like, Oh, I know this place and I don't like this place. So she starts trembling.
00:14:59
Speaker
and just leaning on me and getting really close. And as I pet her and talk to her with my soothing voice, she actually stopped shaking as much. And she is less stressed. And so that's an example, just like we can talk about with our children, even our college age student for sure, younger than that.
00:15:19
Speaker
or adult children, what's actually happening there when there is an activation of the attachment system and the attachment figure responds in a way that helps them feel connected and protected. Emotional states are being regulated, like we're less afraid, like my dog is less afraid when I'm talking to her and petting her.
00:15:40
Speaker
But something else is happening, which is where we have to think about how our emotional states and our physiological states are two sides of the same coin. So when I provide a secure attachment response in a moment of distress, then what happens is I am actually regulating physiological and emotional states. So I'm taking my, and there's no word, there's the word for attachment figure, but there's not a word that I know of in the literature for
00:16:10
Speaker
the person that's the recipient or like the child. So I made up a word. Sure. Attach. Attach. So when we provide it to our attach Ling, we're actually regulating not just their emotional states, but their physiological states. So they go from a stress, their nervous system is having a big response and we actually bring them back into a regulated state. And
00:16:36
Speaker
And is that the term that's co-regulation essentially, right? Yeah, it's co-regulation and helping the vagal nerve. That's right. And then calm down. And most people think of co-regulation just as emotion, but it is physiologically. It's bodily. Yeah, it's bodily. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that's what attachment is. It's something we all need throughout our lifespan. So like a minute ago, when I was complaining about a piece of my work,
00:17:00
Speaker
with my husband and my son and they were listening to me and joining with me in that conversation, I felt connected and I was, you know, I was upset about something and as they listened and I talked and whatever, then that actually makes me feel more
00:17:18
Speaker
regulated and I feel connected and protected by them like they're on my side you know and that's that's really the essence and I we need that from our friends we need as adults I'm 51 I still need it from my mom I still want it from my mom and I get it from her fortunately she's probably listening because she's such an amazing um champion of my work um and um
00:17:40
Speaker
And we need it from our partners. We definitely do. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing what I love about this book too is, and I'll just post this attach link, love it. Go and start calling my kids attach links now. I think I will too. Um, that's also my wife, by the way. Um, she's in the bedroom supporting me.
00:17:59
Speaker
Oh, she was hoping you'd say hi. Um, you know, when I think about it, what I love about this is because this isn't, and I've said this, uh, on the live, uh, or my stories on Instagram that this is not just a book for our kids. This is a book for yes, our kids. Yes. Also ourselves to heal and also our romantic relationships with our spouses, with our partners, with our friends, with our families that this, it, it might look.
00:18:23
Speaker
slightly different in how we manifest this and how we might respond, you know, we're gonna respond to my wife very differently than my three-year-old. Of course, yeah. As far as the words I might use in my, you know, how I might tone, you know, I won't talk to my wife like she's three, but I'm still gonna provide
00:18:44
Speaker
the same core elements that we're going to get into with her or with my friend when my friend's having a hard time. I'm going to, I'm still going to have those same core elements with my buddy who's coming to me who just had a miscarriage or it's like, I'm, those pieces matter or in your businesses, if you're working with a coworker, like this really transcends all areas of life and it's, it's fundamental.
00:19:08
Speaker
It's a business model for us. Actually, I have a center. It's an interdisciplinary clinical practice called the Center for Connection. We have about 45 employees and we have a team of leaders and it's my job and my husband who's the co-founder and leads the center with me. It's our job to provide that secure attachment, the four S's that we're going to talk about to our team leaders and so that our team leaders
00:19:31
Speaker
can provide the four S's to the therapist and the therapist can provide it to their clients who are in therapy and doing intervention. And it's actually something I'm working with businesses on to change the culture in their businesses. I've been using it to support elite athletes in their work instead of top down mental toughness, grind it out kind of coaching.
00:19:53
Speaker
I'm giving them the four S's and giving them that secure base that you referred to earlier, which helps regulate their physiological and emotional states, which lets them perform better. So it's applicable
00:20:08
Speaker
everywhere. It's really something we should all have learned about a long time before now. Yeah, and I agree. Before we jump into four S is what are real quickly, obviously, this is going to be very brief overview for you, we're not going to go into super detail. But you do in the book provide a nice little chart, you can also Google this. But essentially, what are the other kind of insecure types that can develop in childhood?
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, and obviously, like you said, people can really dig deeper into this. And I feel like digging deeper into it is not at all about bashing our parents. I will tell you, my mom provided me with secure attachment. I had a dismissing avoidant pattern of attachment with my dad. And as I learned this stuff,
00:20:54
Speaker
it was it was so incredibly healing for me because it allowed me to view what I didn't get from him as something his brain wasn't wired to be able to do because of his parents and generations and generations as opposed to there being something wrong with me or something wrong with him like you know what I mean it allowed me to move toward a lot of grace and forgiveness and healing so it provided a lot of freedom for me personally so
00:21:20
Speaker
Obviously, if there's a secure attachment, there are patterns of insecure attachment. And nobody neatly fits into any one category. Like me, we had multiple people who were attachment figures for us. And so we may have a combination of different factors. And so nobody neatly fits into any category. But just briefly, the idea is there are, and I'm really broad brush painting here.
00:21:48
Speaker
briefly and generally speaking one is called avoidant dismissing which I just referred to and that's basically where you grew up with a parent who it's kind of like growing up a little bit in an emotional desert your especially your internal life your emotions those kinds of things aren't really seen or responded to
00:22:07
Speaker
the relationship is more surface level. There were a lot of conversations about the weather and the dog and that's kind of it. You're given lots of messages around if you're going to be upset, you need to go do that on your own. So really people who have that, who've grown up with that have a long history of kind of stories of isolation, particularly during times of emotion and distress. And so that can lead people to learn to not
00:22:33
Speaker
even tap into or even understand their own emotional lives because it wasn't really enforced or invited. And starting early on, children with that pattern of attachment, even by age 12 months, already show that they have learned
00:22:49
Speaker
that they get the best from their caregiver by not showing their emotional needs. So they sort of know like, if I show that I'm sad or afraid, that doesn't go so well for me. So I'm going to pretend like everything's okay. And we see that in 12 month olds. So that's one pattern of attachment. Another pattern of attachment is a little bit of the opposite of the emotional desert and it's called anxious ambivalent or an adulthood, it's called preoccupied attachment.
00:23:15
Speaker
And that's really where you have a caregiver who sometimes sees in response to your emotional needs and co-regulates with you, but other times doesn't. And they're very unpredictable in what they're able to do. And in fact, as caregivers, they tend to be really flooded with their own emotional chaos a lot of the time. And so that really gets in the way of them being able to see and respond and co-regulate and calm their child because they're bringing a lot of emotional chaos.
00:23:43
Speaker
And so they kind of learn that I can't trust that someone's going to see and respond to my needs. So I have a lot of anxiety and ambivalence about whether or not I can count on other people in relationships, that form of attachment.
00:23:56
Speaker
They tend to be really preoccupied with the past and with emotions and have a hard time kind of breaking free from that. The third type of insecure attachment, and again, I'm sort of overgeneralizing in these categories, is the most upsetting of them all. And it can actually be combined with any of the other patterns of attachment is called disorganized attachment.
00:24:16
Speaker
disorganized attachment occurs when not when your parent necessarily is shut down emotionally or is emotionally chaotic, but rather is the source of your distress. So remember, we talked about how as mammals, we have a biological drive to go straight to our attachment figures to help us feel safe and to protect us. What happens when your caregiver, your attachment figure,
00:24:39
Speaker
is
Parent Self-Care and Child Support
00:24:40
Speaker
the source of your pain, the source of your terror, then actually it literally causes disorganization in the brain because we have a biological instinct that says go to your caregiver to be protected. And then if your caregiver is terrifying or inflicting pain upon you, then you also have a biological circuit that says get the heck away from what's dangerous.
00:24:59
Speaker
it literally causes disorganization in the brain and behavior and having disorganized attachment is the number one best predictor we have for psychopathology or adult mental health disorders. So it's the research varies but it's anywhere between 40 to 80 percent of the clinical populations. So clinical populations are people who are in ongoing or acute psychological services. So 40 to 80 percent of them have
00:25:28
Speaker
likely a disorganized attachment. And anecdotally, I would agree just from my experience working with high in acuity populations, 100% see that most of the time when there's some severe mental illness I see when I do history taking, that's somewhere involved, 100%.
00:25:47
Speaker
So you could have, like I said, you could have like, when dismissing typically, but also disorganized on top of that. So that's why I'm saying it's a little bit, I'm sort of trying to do the quick version.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. This is generally, we're not doing a deep dive. I know the other ones, but I think enough to give us understanding says we talk about building secure people get it, but yeah, look it up, go Google it. There's plenty of books you can read that go deep dive. If you're identifying with any of those, remember history is not destiny. So this is where, you know, therapy is a fabulous way to create a coherent narrative and make sense of your experiences as is looking at the book and doing some of the questions for reflection, talking about it with your friend or your partner, journaling, these kinds of things.
00:26:29
Speaker
our steps toward understanding how our history has shaped us.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah. So with that said, we have a quick overview again, very broad brush stroke, but enough of the, the science behind it. Get a sense of what it is, which brings us to kind of what we want to talk about tonight. Like, which is the four, right? Which is the four S's. And this is kind of, I think the, the, the majority of the book, which is on the four S's. And so the first one, which we're going to talk about, which I think is the first and most important one is safety. Yeah. Let's talk about that safety.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, so the four S's are important because this is how we, in the everyday moments of parenting, in the micro moments and in the major moments and everything in between, how we cultivate this secure attachment. So safe is, of course, keeping them safe from physical harm.
00:27:19
Speaker
That's an obvious one. And most parents are pretty good at that. But it also means not being the source of their fear and terror, right? And so one of the big things around that, obviously there's the more abusive stuff that we just talked about in terms of disorganized attachment. But we all are guilty of this frequently. And let me give you examples of how that happens in an everyday kind of way that's not abusive.
00:27:47
Speaker
One is that if we are out of control ourselves, meaning we are not regulated, we are yelling either at our kids or at the customer service representative or our mother-in-law or whatever, if we are not. Or the Google. Or the what? Or the Google, the Google home. Actually, my wife has hit on me. We've been talking nice to the Google because sometimes Google doesn't listen. So we raise our voice and like, we got to talk nice to Google.
00:28:14
Speaker
I think it's a good idea with all the AI stuff. Be nice. I think, you know, when we are out of control.
00:28:24
Speaker
then our child cannot feel safe, not because you've ever necessarily hit them or harmed them physically, but because if you are not in control of yourself, how are you going to protect them in the world? How are you going to protect them if a danger comes or if they have a need, right? So that's number one, right? And we've all been guilty of that.
00:28:45
Speaker
flipping our lids, we talk about in the whole brain child. So that's one. And also when we're not in control, we are unpredictable and the brain hates and activates a potential threat when things are not predictable. So the key is that if we do that, well, we'll talk about what we do in a minute. So that's, yeah, so that's one way we can violate that. Another is if we have conflict,
00:29:11
Speaker
Um, with our spouse, significant other family member, et cetera. Um, you know, there's a, there's a, um, and it's not productive respectful conflict. Okay. So, um, I think it's really beneficial for kids to hear
00:29:28
Speaker
co-parents disagree respectfully in regulated states, but that's not always how it goes down. And oftentimes, especially if the couples, if the co-parents are married or long-term partners who live together, oftentimes the conflict happens, the kids see it, it gets ugly, but then after the kids go to bed, the couple repairs, but the kids don't see that. And so they wake up the next morning and they're like, what the heck, right? Even three and four year olds can detect some of the stuff.
00:29:57
Speaker
And even earlier than that, we know that when there is arguing or even arguing on television that is possibly able to enter the auditory sensory system into the auditory cortex, even while babies are sleeping, so they are not even consciously awake, those babies hearing violent or disrespectful arguing, yelling, even from the television, their cortisol levels spike.
00:30:26
Speaker
their stress hormones spike. So when we are having when we are arguing and yelling or we're dysregulated and out of control of ourselves, those are ways we violated. For me, the most frequent way I violated my child's sense of safety was by yelling myself yelling at them. And and so the key there is that we want to help them feel safe again as soon as possible.
00:30:55
Speaker
And so how, and how do we, what's like a tip you would say to create safety? Repair, repair, repair, repair. So I often tell the story about a time I was playing board games with my kids. You're playing Yahtzee and I, I, I lost control. I ended up yelling at them and throwing the dice across the room like a crazy person. And they referred to it as the Yahtzee incident for a while after that. But what happened was as soon as I caught myself,
00:31:25
Speaker
I regulated myself and I just said, boys, I am so sorry. I got mad and I did not handle that well. And I use that scary voice and I threw the dice across. That must have felt so scary. I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? And then I usually ask for a do over. I still ask for a do over sometimes with my 20 plus.
00:31:47
Speaker
But I think immediately we want to give them cues of safety and move back into predictability and what happens then is if we repair immediately and regularly again, not perfectly what happens is their brain comes to
00:32:02
Speaker
have predictability around the unpredictability, meaning like, it's like, oh, she's yelling right now. But I even though I don't like this, and this is stressful, I know she's going to calm down really fast. And she's going to come make things right with me. So it actually builds their resilience for the inevitable messiness of relationships and create use of safety around what they expect, even in those moments.
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah, rather than not apologizing or just brushing it off or walking away. If you had listened, if you had stopped fighting with each other, I wouldn't have done exactly. Yeah, which that creates more insecure types, right? Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
That's right. And, you know, Travis, we could spend hours just on safe. I want to say one other thing, and that is that, you know, there are so many times with our kids around discipline or other, you know, bedtime routines and bathtime routines and feeding routines and all kinds of things around discipline and homework and all of that stuff where we're giving cues of threat.
00:33:00
Speaker
And it's actually really unproductive because the whole point and purpose of discipline is to build skills so they become self-disciplined. And the way they get there is through learning. And the way we help them learn is by teaching. And the brain, when the brain is feeling unsafe, it actually cannot learn at all. And so we want to be thinking about, like if your kid's uncooperative at bedtime and they have a lot of bedtime fears,
00:33:24
Speaker
Think about this idea of safe. What cues of safety and predictability can I give my kid? And if they're three plus, ask them like, what would you like to, what it will help you feel safe? Okay, you want a night sign on. Okay, you want to leave your door open. Okay, you want to sleep with mom's shirt next to you. Okay, you want to, you know, you want to sleep on the floor in mom's room, whatever it is that works for your family. I'm not being prescriptive about any of those things. But what I'm saying is if you want your child to feel
00:33:51
Speaker
positive and not dread and fight back against anything, bedtime, bath time, eating, homework. If you intentionally provide cues of safety, which is your non-verbals, it's putting music on, music and being playful, these are like music, play, connection, non-verbal, all of these things, we are either giving cues of safety,
00:34:15
Speaker
or we are giving cues of threat. And if you want your kids to cooperate and learn and to be like, that time is fun. I look forward to it. I'm not going to fight against it or anything else. Think about how the brain is getting wired. So for me, cues of safety guides everything I do as a spouse, as a friend, as a mom. Yeah. And you mentioned discipline, right? We can't be a good teacher for a threat.
00:34:41
Speaker
The brain is either reactive where it can't learn or it's receptive where it's ready to learn. And so if my discipline involves setting off cues of threat, I'm totally counterproductive to the whole point of discipline. Right.
00:34:57
Speaker
And so it's not even worth doing. It's better. And I'm big on boundaries. I'm big on limits. I'm big on rules. I'm big, big, big on having a lot of limits around these things. But we want to give tons of cues of safety around holding those limits, which my dear friend Dr. Eliza Pressman says, all feelings are welcome, even though all behaviors are not. And the way Dan and I have written about it is we want to say yes to the child
00:35:24
Speaker
and their experience, even if we're saying no to a behavior. So I can say, I know you're so disappointed. It's time to leave your friend's house. It's so hard to leave when you're having such a good time and it's time to go. And if you need to cry and be sad about that, that's totally okay. I'm right here with you while you're sad and while you cry as you pick them up and carry them outside. So we're holding the boundaries.
00:35:48
Speaker
but we're giving lots of cues of safety and saying, I know this is hard and I know you can handle it. I trust that you've got this and I've got while you're here. Yeah. Yeah. And I think safety is that foundational. Uh, we have to have that for everything else. If without safety, everything else kind of, it's like the dominoes, everything else gets like a house of cards, everything else falls apart.
00:36:06
Speaker
Think out when your kids share something with you or you find something out or whatever it is I promise you their brains like oh that didn't go so well I'm not sure I'm gonna do that so and it's okay You probably have freaked out sometime with your kid when they told you something It's okay to go back and make that repair now, even if it's been if some of you're like, oh god three years ago I screamed at my kid I found out they did blah blah blah and and I you want your kids to come to you give them cues of safety around it
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah, and guess what they probably will well, I can't guarantee but most likely they'll remember that incident if you're holding on to it There's a chance they are too and you come and repair that talk about one of the most beautiful Moments and powerful that you can release and actually be more closely connected with your kid or teen or partner And actually move forward and and I always think of a phrase you guys use a lot was connect before you redirect right connection before redirection when it comes to disciplining
00:36:58
Speaker
So that's safety and safety, right? We could probably go on a ton of stuff of safety. And I like what Megan Carson shared. It's reassuring that we can apologize and ask for a do over. And I, I agree. It would be, I think, awful if we couldn't repair her. I think that'd be just the worst thing if we couldn't actually repair her.
00:37:15
Speaker
So I'm so glad that our brains and our Were able to adapt quite quite readily and I think of my kids when I've you know Of course, I've raised my voice and like like all of us and my kids are so When I come in and own it just like you have with your kids man. It's amazing
00:37:34
Speaker
how forgiving and accepting our kids are when we are authentic and we we come in in that safe space and they're yeah and they hug you and like you have these moments of connection and it's a it's a beautiful moment and that it shows just the power of of safety and how what that can create in any relationship so safety is so cool the next one the next one which builds on safety number number two the second
00:37:59
Speaker
second S is seen. So can we talk about being seen?
00:38:05
Speaker
I feel like for, this is a tough one. I think to me, this is the gateway to the next one of soothing as well. It's really looking at the mind behind the behavior. It's looking at the interior experience or the internal landscape. So it really is like tuning in what is happening underneath all of this. So your kid might be acting really, really in a really annoying way.
00:38:32
Speaker
But if you're really trying to kind of like look past the behavior and really tune into what is my child's experience? Like the example I offer to do something really nice for my kid to take him somewhere. And then they're like, can I get a treat? And I'm like, well, no, we're not gonna have a treat, but we can still go. And then they pout.
00:38:50
Speaker
Then I'm kind of like, are you, you know, my first instinct is like, are you kidding me? You're going to fuss about treatment. I'm doing something nice for you. Like you're so spoiled, right? But if I come in with criticism or I minimize, like, why are you making such a big deal? They're going to be like, wow, when I share myself with her, that doesn't feel so good. Maybe I'm not going to do that.
00:39:07
Speaker
What I want to do instead is respond to them in a way that matches what they're feeling on the inside. So I might respond by saying, wow, you seem really excited to go a minute ago, but now something else happened. What's going on?
00:39:23
Speaker
I'm curious you seem like you maybe are feeling disappointed or something like that and I often use the word seem like it seems like because I don't want to tell them how they're feeling I'm trying to to get close about bringing humility to that or it looks like
00:39:42
Speaker
um and then then my kid can say yeah i'm disappointed i really wanted that treat and when you said no i felt disappointed or whatever i can be like you know what it's okay to feel grateful about something and feel disappointed at the same time i know that's hard when i have an expectation and i don't get it i can feel disappointed too and that's totally okay if you're disappointed i'm right here with you while you feel disappointed we're still not getting the treat so i'm holding the boundary right so i think really about um
00:40:07
Speaker
You know, like an example I often give is like a time my kid was refusing to get out of the bathtub. He was probably four or five at the time, screaming, splashing. I'm not getting out. I mean, just really, really oppositional. I try to stay regulated first because I want him to feel safe and I can't join the storm. I want to be the eye of the storm or the calm in the storm. And so I might so I'm I might say I'm going to show you how I do safe and seeing here is and we can get to the third S.
00:40:36
Speaker
is I'm going to help him feel safe by staying regulated myself. And then I'm going to help connect and protect and help him feel giving lots of cues of safety as I'm holding low limits. And then the way I practice seeing is to say it's time to get out. You can get out by yourself or I will help you out. And if he says I'm not getting out, that as I lift him out of the tub, I'm going to practice seeing by saying you're so mad you have to get out of the tub. You really wanted to stay in. You're so angry about getting out. Is that right?
00:41:05
Speaker
So I'm really trying to have him have an experience of, wow, she really gets me. She knows me. I am known. I am loved. I am seen. So that over time, those micro moments add up to that idea of I am I am known and seen and loved for who I am, not who they wanted me to be, not when I only when I behave right.
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah, what a powerful message we want our kids to know is that they love me for who I am Not just when I get the A or sit quietly with my hands folded or whatever it is It's it's that no we do love them and that's the message we want our kids to know
00:41:42
Speaker
And that creates, you know, all the benefits of having a secure attachment, right, of better sense of identity and their ability to regulate their own emotional states and connect with others, a whole bunch of stuff. So you can see why when we do that, you know, which is what often is missing in the avoidant dismissing attachment is there's no scene, your emotions, you know, it's like, why are you crying? Yeah.
00:42:03
Speaker
What happens here is that as they get reps or repeated experiences in practice of us saying, you know, you're so mad. Is that right? Yeah, that was so hard. You really wanted to stay in the tub. They're not only getting emotional language, but they're also learning how to see and understand themselves. And so it's developing an ability to reflect. I mean, we're really talking about changing the brain here.
00:42:27
Speaker
Yeah. And this is also discipline moments, right? Is that we're tuning in when I think of this is we're attuning, right? These three, these three parts of being seen as attuning, understanding their perspective, right? And then responding in a way is that if, if we're in a discipline moment and you could please, you know, chime in, if we just come in and just go into what they need to be doing and skip pass by the seat, this being seen part, like with your kid with the tub, right? If I just go into what we got to get out. Yeah.
00:42:56
Speaker
Well, then what does it happen that way? What, what, what does it go that route? And usually it's not just, well, we're getting out, but if you don't get out right now, you're not getting bedtime stories. Let me start throwing in the threats. And by the way, um, you know, and we did a whole other podcast about this idea, but you know, if you're going to, if you are relying on threat based discipline, at some point you're going to totally lose. Um, and so it's not, it's not really an effective way to lay the groundwork. And I think that, um,
00:43:25
Speaker
And by the way, you can't do this every single moment of every single day. It's really about the general sense, particularly when they're in distress, particularly when something is upsetting to them. I mean, I actually think it would be kind of intrusive, like if they're just like eating their dinner and they go, if you're like, oh, I'm tuning in and I'm noticing you really enjoyed that bite. Like let's not be obnoxious about this. This is really about
00:43:51
Speaker
Particularly when emotions are running bigger, when something meaningful happens. And sometimes it's perfectly fine. And maybe not everyone would agree with me to say, you know what, get your shoes on. We're going to talk about this in a second, but you've got to get your shoes on. We're leaving right now.
00:44:09
Speaker
Um, and then, um, you know, and then other moments I'm going to be like, um, you know, how can I help? It's time to get your shoes on. What is it you need in order to get your shoes on? Like I might do that. I'm going to be like, come on shoes on now. We gotta go. We gotta go. And, um, and, and I don't have to have, it's so hard to put your shoes on when you're in the middle of something. I can't do that every single time.
00:44:31
Speaker
So it's really just about having lots of repeated experiences around this. It doesn't have to be every single moment of parenting. That's impossible and intrusive.
00:44:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a part of me thinks it's a common sense thing of not commenting on every single moment, but it's like you said, it's the high, high emotion distress states when there's something, there's something in the nervous system that is heightened. Or on the other way, if they've gone to the, you know, you talk about these zones where if they're kind of in a shutdown state too, that
00:45:04
Speaker
You know, here's an example of this. So my youngest was packing, he was leaving for camp and we were packing and he's a really easy going, just sweet, sweet, sweet child. But he was a little bit short with me and his responses and I'm like helping him pack, you know? But instead of being like, why are you using that tone with me? I mean, it was very subtle. Like no one would even know that thoughts was happening, but I know my kid. And I was like, hey, you seem not quite yourself right now. What's going on?
00:45:32
Speaker
That was an opportunity for scene. I tuned in in that moment. It's a more micro subtle thing, not just the big emotions. Yeah. It's like I'm feeling stressed. I'm like, tell me about that. So that each couple of things he was feeling stressed about. And we talked it through. And I said, you know what? I trust you. You can trust yourself. You know how to navigate both situations really beautifully. Is it OK with you if I check in with you about it tonight before you go to bed? So those little tiny moments can also be opportunities for that as well.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, and so that's some examples of being seen and I think seen is one that I hear a lot. People just don't feel seen and heard even in adult romantic relationships and part of that is is that tuning in and validating and trying to understand even if you don't agree because a lot of times it happens as parents or sometimes as romantic partners is
00:46:22
Speaker
That's not a big deal to us But to them and that's the thing is to them. It's a big deal to them. It's a it's an issue to them. It's something powerful So that's that that's that building safety and soothing and which brings us to the third ass, right? Which is all about well being soothed
00:46:38
Speaker
Yeah, so that's really what it sounds like. It's comforting. It's nurturing. It's helping. It's supporting. It's back to what we talked about in the beginning about co regulating physiological and emotional states. That's really what we're talking about here. So in that moment, you know, the way is sometimes it might be and it can be even be physical like if you especially if you have a kind of a surly teenager like bringing a fuzzy blanket or bringing them a cup of tea or
00:47:04
Speaker
you know, a snack that they like that kind of physical comfort and soothing also communicates nurture. So if you know your kids not in the mood for talking, that's a good way to kind of, you know, do that. But it's really when your child is
00:47:21
Speaker
suffering in some way or having a hard time, we show up in that moment. And it's really our presence much more than what we say or what we do. It's really about showing up when they need us and whether or not they ask for it. And so I think this is what happens even
00:47:38
Speaker
Um, you know with older kids, you know They're like i'm really stressed about this and this and this and instead of immediately been like well Why did you wait till the last minute like you wouldn't have to be this stressed if you planned ahead better? That's not helpful They actually already know that and that's why they're stressed and so later we can even say what do you what's your plan for avoiding that in the future? We can have that conversation But in that moment they need us to show up and they need us to help them feel safe and seen like oh, sweetie That sounds so stressful. How can I help? What do you need? So the the kind of like phrases I use all the time for soothes
00:48:08
Speaker
Husband too, how can I help? What do you need? And another one is I'm right here with you while you are feeling X, Y, and Z. So when my kid's like, it's not fair, you know, whatever, and they're screaming, I know it's so hard. When things don't feel fair, that's a really, really uncomfortable feeling. And I'm right here with you while you're feeling it.
00:48:30
Speaker
So it's really just about communicating. And sometimes it's not words at all. It's sitting down and making eye contact because when we sit down, we communicate, you're important. I have time for you. I'm here.
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I've done that with adults and couples there every two is sometimes it's uh, Classically, I think of like a female male partnership You know, it's like putting the phone down And not trying to fix it but just sitting and like, you know, i've asked the you know, female partner. What do you need? I'm just sitting and rubbing my back and hug and And for some guys i'm thinking it's like that's it. That's all you need like yeah, that's the there's there's your key do that like
00:49:04
Speaker
you know because they're like well they yeah they want to fix it i'm like that's the that's the fix just she's giving you the key and so that that's that stew thing and it's like that which creates safety and because they all kind of they all go hand in hand and another concept i really liked in the book was this idea of parent directed inter soothing there's that inter inter soothing creates and makes the ability for the child to learn their own inner soothing that as we help them as parents
00:49:31
Speaker
they develop the skill set for their own capacity to soothe.
00:49:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think one thing that's really interesting is a lot of pushback I'll get is like, wait, you're telling me that my kid maybe even is doing something wrong. Like they're being disrespectful to me or they're, you know, they're trying to just trying to get attention in that moment. And, you know, everybody else says I should just ignore them, but you're telling me I should comfort them. What are you talking about? No wonder children are so entitled. That's the kind of pushback I get.
00:50:03
Speaker
Um, and what I, my response to that is, well, there's a lot I could say about that. I think the idea of attention seeking should actually be replaced with connection seeking. Um, and attention is a need from, especially from an attachment perspective. Um, if you don't have your parents' attention on you, you're much more likely to be eaten by a predator. So attention is a basic fundamental need. So when we time, anytime we're like, she's just trying to get attention, that'd be like saying she's just trying to get food and water.
00:50:27
Speaker
Um so and if it's a need we have to make it bigger and bigger and bigger and make our call for that need to be met bigger and bigger and bigger until it gets met. So it actually increases bad behavior if we don't see those attention seeking moments as actually connection seeking moments. Um so that's one piece but the other piece is that
00:50:47
Speaker
What we're actually doing when we soothe and comfort is we're moving a child from a dysregulated state, reactive state, into a receptive, regulated state where they can learn, where they can listen, where they can hear your voice and process information. So it's unproductive if we're not doing it anyway. But more than that, we're giving their brain a rep. Just like when I lift weights and I do reps, my muscle gets stronger, we're giving our child's brain a rep.
00:51:12
Speaker
their nervous system of going from a dysregulated state back into a regulated state. And the way we develop the ability to self soothe is by having someone co-soothe or co-regulate with us, to provide soothing to us. When we pat our babies and we sing to them and we rock them and we soothe them to get them back into feeling safe and regulated,
00:51:36
Speaker
this is what we need throughout our lifespan. It obviously looks different. I don't want to be, actually rocking would be sounds really nice. If I sat on my husband's lap and he rocked in a rocking chair, that might be kind of nice. But in general, you know, obviously those needs change over time in terms of what they look like. But the way we help our children be the most resilient
00:51:56
Speaker
is through doing this. It doesn't create fragility. And I did a dissertation on this. There's 80 plus years of research that show it's impossible to spoil a child with attention, affection, love, comfort, co-regulation. Where we get into trouble is if we're not holding limits and boundaries. And those abs can go together. We can soothe and comfort and all that while we hold limits. And in fact, that makes our teaching much more effective.
00:52:24
Speaker
Hmm It it's funny because we hear that a lot it'll coddle them it'll spoil them and you you can't answer the question It's so not true and this that the research doesn't show that it's not anywhere in the literature In fact, it's missiveness is what leads to that
00:52:40
Speaker
Yes, yes, permissiveness or fixing everything for your child, not allowing them to fail like that. Yeah, that's that's what this is. Yeah, this actually enables them. And especially if you're practicing scene, you are you are tuning in to figure out and you're also doing your own reflection, remember, to say,
00:53:00
Speaker
Is me stepping in here more about me and getting rid of my anxieties or my need for perfection? Or is it really about my child's development? And so if we're really tuning in to ourselves and to our children, we can sidestep a lot of that. And a lot of times
00:53:16
Speaker
I'm not sure I'm doing that right or not, but it's where I seek wise counsel and it's where I seek discernment from somebody I trust who will call me on my crap and be like, you've got some really strong left brain logical rationalizations there, but this is about you wanting it done a certain way. It's not about your, your child doesn't need you to do that. What are you talking about Tina? And we need, sometimes we need, we need that discernment from our partners, from our friends, from, you know, from people who will talk truth to us lovingly.
00:53:45
Speaker
And I think that's a key point that we need to hear more about. Is this about us or is this really about our kid? And if it's about us, we got to do our own work and not impose on our children that we really have to look, why am I being so triggered with this? Why is this such a big deal for me? Which the first quarter of your book kind of addresses that. And other books talk about this too.
00:54:07
Speaker
I think it's such an important piece as we do this. But moving on to the fourth S, right, which we got safe, seen, soothed, and then it leads us to, well, secure. That's right. So it's definitely about leading us to secure attachment, but it's more than that. It's really that we have now, we have enough predictable, repeated, not perfect experiences of feeling safe and seen and soothed,
00:54:32
Speaker
where our brain comes to securely know and wire that if we have a need, someone's gonna show up for us. And it also creates secure wiring around being able then to do the four S's for ourselves. Remember, eventually our kids grow up and leave and we want them to keep themselves safe and to see and understand themselves and be able to soothe themselves and then securely show up for other people.
00:55:01
Speaker
And so that's really what the secure leads to is a wiring of the brain of a becoming the kind of person who expects that in other relationships. So they'll have healthier relationships. But it's really secure is really about trusting and knowing because our brain predicts it based on how our brains are wired that someone's going to see and show up for us. And that's really what it's about is that security.
00:55:26
Speaker
Yeah. And it leads us. Yeah. And they all, they, they, they domino into each other, right? That these, you know, the recipe is, well, I have the three S's, it's going to create that secure base, right? That's the recipe is that they, and they, you know, I didn't add the other arrow. It's a feedback loop. It kind of keeps coming back and forth. It's more of a circular and my bad on adding the other arrow, but it continues to, it grows. And then we know, and it's not about being perfect again. And it's, it's.
00:55:52
Speaker
It's that consistency is generalized speaking because we could also hold space and I think of I don't know who said this It could be the Gottman's it could the pride was the Gottman's something of partnerships of romantic relationships Is like this emotional bank, you know, the more you invest in the relationship you don't have like these these moments of connection and
00:56:11
Speaker
Um, I think with the five to one ratio or 10 to one ratio, the more you invest that when there is a withdrawal or a conflict or, or as a parent or with your partner, there's enough in the bank. That's right. Even if it's a mess up, I have enough money in this account of this equity that it's yeah, I feel it. And some might, some might be big withdraws, but have enough in there to depend and know that at the end of the day, my, my parent loves me. They care for me. Even as a big moment, or in the end of the day, I know my partner cares for me, even though this is kind of painful.
00:56:40
Speaker
Based upon all this other investment, I could rest in the safety of that and security in that, knowing that it's not the end of this relationship or the worst thing. And so it's those. It really is. And one thing you all should know, too, is a secure base is really a place your child can always come to to be like, I am now connected and protected. I am at home in relationship here.
00:57:06
Speaker
A secure base is a place to return to, to re-center, to regroup, to get regulated. But the secure base is also a launching pad. So what we know too is that when children are prematurely pushed into autonomy, independence, whatever, in a way that makes them feel unsafe, it's actually counterproductive.
00:57:25
Speaker
The research is really clear that when our children feel safe and secure enough and have that secure base, they will move toward autonomy and they will move to exploration and to stretching their ability to kind of move away from us and then to come back as needed. So it really does kind of expand their capacity to be in a bigger world and to be in other relationships. And so a secure base is not about holding onto your child and restricting their development. It's actually the base that launches them out.
00:57:55
Speaker
Into exploration and curiosity and having other meaningful relationships. So it's your base and a launching pad Yeah, I love I love that launching pad image. It's just you're right It's it's we come out we come back and we leave we come back we leave we come back Um, so that's the four S's again the book if you ever read the book, it's totally worth your time and fifteen dollars Please go read it. It's it's it is a really good book and there's more in there that we didn't get to cover and
00:58:20
Speaker
Um a bit because we could talk for hours and hours and hours, but I want to save some time for questions. Do you still have a little time? Yeah, so let's move into some q and a so please i've been asking people to think of questions they want to ask tina around attachment and building it and So this is a time we go ahead and drop some comments in and then we'll start to field some of your questions And now for a short break
00:58:42
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:58:58
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:59:14
Speaker
But I have a question for you since i'm waiting for some people to type in and because they could have stepped away But one question I have and i'll think about this. So we have three kids Um And i'm thinking when we had our first kid When he was having a difficult moment You know, he kind of had a two to one ratio of of parents that could attend to his emotional needs is having a hard time and so we would were there right and we
00:59:41
Speaker
We were kind of we were a man man up from him. It was two to one and then we had our second Then you went to man-to-man defense then we went doing man-to-man now We're in zone So I guess the question I have was zone is that you know, cuz I I know it's about responding in a timely manner
00:59:59
Speaker
But I'm thinking when either I'm alone with the kids or if my my partner's alone with the kids And they all have needs. Yep. So, oh here we go Actually, let me just I'll ask it might why I fast ask questions So what do you do though? If you have all three kids that need you and you're one person They're all having a need at the same time because that does happen. So how do you
01:00:25
Speaker
What would the science say or research about? That's a survive moment, right? You pick the need that's the greatest goes first, right? And that's often the youngest who doesn't have as wide of a window of tolerance, that's Dan Siegel's phrase, or who has a more immediate need. But I will say that when your child's need is not being met, on some level, they're seeing you show up and meet needs of the children in your family.
01:00:51
Speaker
and that they're seeing that happen anyway and and they know that you will meet their need as best you can when you can um as best you know as best that you can in those moments that is still safety it's still security saying
01:01:07
Speaker
I know that it's my needs on tap right now. I'm on the wait list for a second. Even if it's just one-on-one, we can't meet all needs because we can't even see them all or understand them. Sometimes we're misattuned in what we're determining are the needs. You might think,
01:01:27
Speaker
Oh, my baby's hungry. I'm going to feed them. And it's like, no, my baby's not hungry. I don't know why they're crying. You know, sometimes we can't even figure it out. We're just trying our best. And I think when our kids see us trying, that still provides a lot of benefit and safety and security. And the benefit is sometimes our kids learn how to take like the other two might help each other out or they might learn how to figure it out themselves this time. So there's a lot of benefits that come with it. But we can't we can't do that. We can't be too hard on ourselves. We just do the best we can. And there's lots of benefits to that, too.
01:01:57
Speaker
Oh, good. So I'm not totally screwing my kids up. Good. Yes. So next question is, so what happens when your kid doesn't want or seems to reject some of these tools or techniques such as wanting to be left alone when they're having a high emotion, specifically, how do I offer safety and attachment and allowing them to be seen when they're telling us they don't want it?
01:02:23
Speaker
So this is probably one of the top five questions I get. So this is not, it's probably something I should respond to more in my actual talk. Okay, here's the deal. There are people who would disagree with me about this. There are some people who say, no matter what your child says, you need to go and not leave them alone and be there with them and say, you're too upset for me to leave you alone right now.
01:02:49
Speaker
And I think that's fine. It's not what I believe and what I do. I think there's benefits to that argument. But I think it's the availability of your presence that matters the most. And every child is different. We all have different sensory preferences. We all have different temperaments, et cetera. Obviously, making sure your child is safe, right? You're not going to leave a child. If a kid says, I don't want your help, and you know that they're not going to be safe with themselves alone, you're going to stay present, obviously.
01:03:18
Speaker
Each of my kids was really different when they got upset. One of them was a fighter and he would just go like crazy, like win, win, win. And he wanted to be in combat. Another one of mine wanted to get away and hide under and away. Like that was what he wanted and needed. And then I had a third that just cried and would collapse into arms and then get comforted really quickly. So they're all different. If you have a child that's saying,
01:03:42
Speaker
leave me alone or saying or like pushing you back when you're trying to or if you're trying to say oh sweetie you're having such a hard time right now and they're like no stop it no talking whatever these moments are
01:03:55
Speaker
I think that if you are like, no, I'm gonna give you empathy right now. I'm gonna connect with you and I'm going to chase you and I'm going to whatever. I think that's all it can be potentially depending on how you do it and who your kid is and what the situation is that can be intrusive and more about your needs than your child's needs.
01:04:14
Speaker
So I think it's absolutely appropriate, especially if your child is safe and especially if they're older, to say, if you feel comfortable and it seems appropriate and not intrusive to say,
01:04:26
Speaker
I love you too much to leave you alone with big feelings. That's perfectly appropriate, but give them some space in that. I think it's also appropriate to say, it's okay if you want some time by yourself. It's okay if you need to calm down a little bit, but I'm right here. I'm gonna be right outside your door or I'm gonna be just, I'm gonna be in the kitchen and I'm gonna come back and check on you in two minutes. So it's really the availability of your presence. Sometimes kids really want to be by themselves
01:04:55
Speaker
because your auditory input or the visual input of having you sitting there looking at them, trying to figure out what to do or say, actually elevates their nervous system arousal. It actually makes them more anxious or more revved up, it's more stimulation. So even sitting next to your child but not making eye contact, sitting with a little bit of space, or if they're old enough to say, I'll be in the kitchen if you need me, I'm always right here if you need me, I'll be back to check on you in a few minutes, and then go back and check, and then say,
01:05:24
Speaker
do you need help calming down? What do you need? Or how can I help? And you know, one of my kids, my one who would run away and hide under things, he was really vulnerable to low blood sugar. So what what I learned is if I would just if I said, honey, you're you really need to have a snack, he would immediately be oppositional, because it was just pushing against anything I was saying. But if I would just set down some sliced apples,
01:05:48
Speaker
near him and just kind of stay near, he would start eating them and then he would get regulated. And then we were like, I was like, what happened? I don't know, mom, you know, and he didn't know. So anyway, I think it's I think I think it's actually kind of funny, but not to to like, don't chase your child and be like, I'm going to give you empathy and connection. I'm going to co-regulate the nervous system right now. Like it sounds like a comedy that's going to come out soon. Who's chasing my naked? Yeah. So it's OK.
01:06:18
Speaker
Tune into your child and in that moment what is right. One, making sure you're making those decisions from a regulated state. And if you're not, regulate your own nervous system first before you're making those decisions. Hold your child's safety as number one, obviously.
01:06:34
Speaker
And by the way, the quickest way to regulate your nervous system or your child's nervous system based on everything we know is that what's called the physiologic sigh, which is where our exhale is longer than our inhale and doing that two times. Can really down regulate our own reactivity. We could teach it to our kids. There are lots of other ways to down regulate our own reactivity, but
01:07:02
Speaker
Those are some principles to hold on to as you're making that decision. But yeah, a lot of kids want to reject that, but that's actually more evidence of dysregulation. It's evidence of heightened or depressed. I don't mean depressed like the feeling depression, but low or too high arousal states in our nervous system.
01:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, and it's so having three kids, it's so different, you know, it's they they similar, but how they what they need is different and how you talk to them. And it's how one I could approach one of my kids one way, but I have to really change how I approach my it's it keeps you and also parenting keep you on your toes. I'll say that.
01:07:42
Speaker
Cues over time as development unfolds too. But I will say the one universal across all of them and that really should guide, really should have been the first part of my answer is cues of safety. Regardless of what's happening and how you respond and what that specifically looks like in that moment, cues of safety. It's the quickest way to down regulate their nervous system. It's the quickest way to get them back to these regulated states. And it's the way to the four S's. It's that first of safety.
01:08:11
Speaker
And she said, thank you. So interesting about the stimuli, perhaps being a factor, very informative, eye-opening. The next question is by Lindsay Laurie. What are some examples of what you consider permissiveness, sometimes harder to distinguish as you are soothing a child who's having a difficult moment, example, doing something after you ask them to stop? Yeah. I think, you know, it's really interesting
01:08:37
Speaker
We have to hold our goal in mind, right? Which is for them to become self-disciplined people, right? So that means we're gonna have limits and boundaries and we're gonna hold them accountable to those limits and boundaries. That does not mean you can't ever change your mind. In fact, in no drama discipline,
01:08:57
Speaker
At the end, there is a section called 20 Discipline Mistakes Great Parents Make. And I actually did a whole series of that on Instagram. If you go on Instagram, all of them are there. I called them Mistake Mondays. It's on my Instagram account, which is Tina Payne Bryson. You can go back and look at those videos where I talk about each of these. And I talk about this in multiple ways throughout that series if you want to really go deeper. But let me give an example. OK, so permissiveness is where your child is running the show.
01:09:22
Speaker
I was at this guy's house that was this like grandpa who was raising his granddaughter. And he was, he just thought she was everything in which she was. She was amazing. And he adored her, but this is hilarious. And he was kind of being funny, but it was actually true. He was like, well, honey, the only rule is if you want it, you can have it. The only rule is you have to want it. And that was kind of how he did things and that's permissive. So it's really about letting the child run the show.
01:09:49
Speaker
We want to be leaders in our home, where we are in charge. That makes our children feel safe. So permissiveness is where you're not really holding limits and boundaries. You're not even making them. There aren't really rules. If your kid whines, you give in. That's not to say we can't ever change our mind. But let me give an example here. I'm walking behind a mom.
01:10:11
Speaker
that I very much identify with. We had all of our boys played a ton of sports. So I'm walking out away from the little league fields and this mom's holding an infant. She also has like a seven or eight year old with a bat bag. She's holding the bat bag and she's got a wagon and she's holding the kid's bucket on her arm and she's got a backpack and all this stuff. And she's also got a toddler. So she's got three kids with her and the three year old says,
01:10:33
Speaker
I want my bucket and they're walking to the car and it's 100 degrees and the kid's like I want my bucket and he starts whining and fussing and fussing and getting louder and louder and louder she's ignoring him ignoring him ignoring him until she's like fine and she throws everything down not the baby she kept the baby safe she throws all her stuff down is like here that's a permissive response and what it teaches our kids is if I get loud enough and I whine long enough I'm gonna get what I want that's permissive now
01:11:02
Speaker
Mom can, in my opinion, there's lots, but here's two examples of ways to handle it. One is you're not going to change your mind. So you're going to say, I know you really want the bucket and it's so hard to wait. Let's count how many steps it takes until we get to the car. My arms are so full, but let's maybe what song should we sing? Let's see if we can get to the car by the time the song ends, whatever, be playful or not, or you don't even have to be playful. Just say, I know you really want the bucket. I can't set my things down and it's okay if you're sad about that.
01:11:28
Speaker
And I'm right here with you while you're sad about not having the bucket. Okay. So that's not changing your mind. That's the opposite of permissiveness. That is having, um, high limits and boundaries. Another option is, you know what? I can change my mind about the bucket. So she could even say, well, I can tell that the bucket matters a lot to you right now and we have time. So I'm going to change my mind. So hold on just a second. So she can, the difference is she is changing her mind and says, we have time. I'm going to change my mind.
01:12:00
Speaker
And she's basically saying, I'm still in charge. I'm the one that's making the decision instead of giving in. Now, if you go that route and you have a child like my youngest, if you've ever done that once, I'm changing my mind, he is going to ask for you to change your mind a lot.
01:12:21
Speaker
And that's not necessarily a bad thing because in order to try to convince you of something, to change your mind about a number of bedtime stories or whatever else, they have to think about your mind and what argument might be efficient and helpful and effective.
01:12:38
Speaker
That is tremendous brain stuff that they're doing there. That's incredible. And what an incredible gift to be able to be a persuasive arguer in the world. The key is there's got to be a stopping point. And usually we let our kids whine and fuss and push the boundary too long so that we are annoyed and we're like, I told you no. And then we respond in a way that's not
01:13:02
Speaker
the parent we want to be and not as loving and in control as we'd like to be. So I will tell you is if you ever have a situation where you're like, you know what? I've thought about this and I'm you know, this helps comes in real handy when you're like, that's it. You're not swimming for the entire summer. And then you're like, okay, that was a totally
01:13:20
Speaker
one enforceable threat I just threw out or consequences. Yeah. You know, those are moments where we're like, you know what, I thought about it. And so it's totally okay to say, and if your child makes a good argument about something to say, you know what, you made a good point and you're right. I hadn't thought about that. Sure. Let's do that. But we're only doing two more stories. And when I say I'm not changing my mind,
01:13:43
Speaker
I actually will not be changing my mind. And that is the final word. So that was really helpful because I had a really negotiating child. But then when I would say I'm not changing my mind, I would not change my mind. And he knew what that meant. And then when I said that, I could make the boundary. And instead of him badgering me and badgering me and badgering me where then eventually I was like, you know, reactive, we help we we hold the boundary early enough.
01:14:13
Speaker
Hopefully Lindsay that answered your question. I thought it did. It was great. Great. Well said. Um, next question is from Imogen Dodridge. Hopefully I see your name right. Sometimes I'm so tired from a day of work and evening of parenting that even though I'm physically present, it doesn't feel like I'm really showing up for my toddler. How can I show them that I care and love them when I'm running on empty?
01:14:38
Speaker
Mama, yes, of course you're running on empty. Of course you are. That's a lot. We just have physical limits because we are human beings. And if you're asking that question, you're clearly a really intentional mom and you're probably someone who really invests in your child and you really invest in your work and they both are important to you. And here's the great news.
01:15:04
Speaker
We don't have to spend our entire evenings being present, engaged, child-led play, where we're also teaching three languages and doing the feelings chart and doing mindfulness. Here's what we know.
01:15:24
Speaker
Um, quantity matters, but quality really matters. If you even, and the research is like so gracious around this, even if you spend just about 15 to 20 minutes where you're really present, really focused in,
01:15:41
Speaker
following your child's lead, you know, really engage with them. That fills their tank beautifully. It doesn't mean it's going to fill your child's entire tank, but you don't have to be completely like energetic and doing puppet shows every night. It's really about the quality of that. And, you know, I'll give a personal example. My
01:16:04
Speaker
My eldest son, most of my family was out of town for a couple days this week, except my eldest son and myself. And he works all day and he has a long commute and he came home and it was like 7 30 and he was exhausted. And I was like, do you want to watch, do you want to have TV?
01:16:20
Speaker
have dinner watching um on tv trays and he was like yes like that was the most responsive thing for him and i told my husband i was like we didn't really talk but we hung out and we watched a show together and then we talked about that it's really it doesn't have to be enriching it doesn't have to be all of that just
01:16:38
Speaker
even a small chunk of time daily. You know, if you're doing bedtime routine and you're snuggling, just your physical presence and being up close to your toddler is filling their tank. There's this awesome book that's about like how to parent lying down. I can't remember the exact title, but it's like ways to parent while lying down. And the whole book is like ways you can play with your kids and like be there while you're still like horizontal.
01:17:05
Speaker
So I think that's really, really
Parental Mental Health Concerns
01:17:08
Speaker
important. And it's really important that I want to say this to you, Imogen.
01:17:13
Speaker
You matter too. Parents, we matter too. And when we find ourselves running on empty, it's really hard to bring the four S's. In fact, there was a study that came out in the last week from the Harvard School of Education. They interviewed about 400 teenagers and 40% of them were worried about at least one of their parents' mental health. And the study showed that a third of teenagers have at least one parent who's struggling with anxiety and or depression.
01:17:43
Speaker
This is huge. Parental mental health and having the resources to be present in our relationships is foundational to everything we do. So I hope you have some support, whether that's a co-parent or a family member or a neighbor who will swap childcare chunks of time with you. Make sure you are doing things to fill up your tank too, because what you're doing is exhausting.
01:18:11
Speaker
And you matter too.
Building Connections with Teens
01:18:13
Speaker
But don't put so much pressure on yourself. Just a small chunk of connection is beautiful. And if you're asking that question, like, I'm worried I'm not doing enough. If you're asking that question, you're doing more than enough because you care that much. You're intentionally working at it. So relax.
01:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I agree. Also, Lindsay said, thank you. That was a great example of about the premise of this. She appreciated that. Megan Carson asks, oh, no question, just so grateful to have these tools as my kids are entering their teen years feeling so much more reassured in how to keep our connection strong, even through this next phase.
01:18:56
Speaker
You know, Megan, for me, the hardest thing is to listen more than I talk. It's really hard for me with my teenagers because I'm like, oh, I only have so much time. I got to get in all these lessons in their life. Right. And the other thing is that
01:19:11
Speaker
I really want them to be moving more and more toward autonomy, so it's really about shifting from saying, you need to go to bed, it's late, to saying things like, this is my favorite phrase, I love it with little kids too, but especially with my teenagers, is to say, hey, what's your plan? I know you know it's important to get a good night's sleep, and I'm sure you notice what time it is, what's your plan for getting a good night's sleep tonight? Or what's your plan for making sure that parking ticket gets paid?
Teen Parenting Strategies and Resources
01:19:36
Speaker
uh those kinds of things um would you like a reminder on the calendar or you're gonna take care of it right now or what's your plan right so you can get in some advice there i will also say and i love sharing other people's amazing work i love love love lisa demore at d-a-m-o-u-r she has a fabulous instagram account and she had a book that came out this last year called the emotional lives of teens and she gives you like actual word phrases to come out of your mouth in ways that make your teenagers
01:20:04
Speaker
hate you less. It's kind of amazing. And I do have to say the teenage angst and teenage conflict is not inevitable. It's certainly a part of growing adolescence, but
01:20:16
Speaker
Um, we don't have to have them hating us and having conflict, especially if we are managing our own emotions. Well, so, um, I think that I think teenagers are amazing. Young adults are amazing. And I love that we're not having, well, I was going to say, I love that we're not having as many, just like fart and poop jokes at dinner time that we're having more sophisticated conversations, but I will say we're still having some of those, but for sure, a lot less, a lot more, um,
01:20:41
Speaker
conversations about ethics and relationships and, um, and, and really much more interesting dinner conversations than when they were, um, five and three. Yeah.
Engaging with Younger Children
01:20:51
Speaker
That's, that's the phase I'm in right now. Although we do get questions, but I'll just ask about like black holes and we have questions like that and stuff. So we have very, I would love an explanation on those too. So, you know, I, we do ask Google a lot to help us. So, um, and it looks like Megan said she just finished Lisa's book. She said, Oh, good. Yeah. It's a great book. I need to get now. Oh, it's really cool.
Listener Engagement and Feedback
01:21:12
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.