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Mixed-Orientation Couples Therapy with Dr. Joshua Gebhardt (Part 1)
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We're back! This week I sit down with Dr. Joshua Gebhardt — a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in mixed-orientation couples — to explore what really happens when guys come out to their wives as queer. Drawing from his doctoral research and years of clinical experience, Joshua breaks down the most common challenges couples face after disclosure, why shame and panic often dominate the early stages, and how counselors can either help or unintentionally harm these vulnerable relationships. We unpack the most common relationship outcomes (and how to know which is most likely...), the role of sexual identity (bi v. gay v. something else), how couples navigate opening up their relationship (or not), the best and worst therapy models, and what it takes to navigate authenticity, safety, and connection when everything feels at stake.
Stay tuned for Part 2, coming next week, where we go deeper into Joshua's personal queer journey. You won't want to miss it.
The Gebhardt Group: https://www.thegebhardtgroup.co/home
Email Joshua directly: josh@gebhardtgroup.co
Sign up for Dr. Gebhardt’s Group, “Women Navigating Marriages with Gay or Bisexual Men”: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe-0jju_kpELwu9HPnwP6LA720NcnkYR7UR3lGRcdedqrWqgg/viewform
Support for people in Mixed-Orientation Marriages:
HOW (Husbands Out to Wives): https://how-support.org/
GAMMA: https://www.gammasupport.org/
MOR (Mixed-Orientation Marriages) & More: https://www.morandmore.org/
Mixed Orientation Marriage: Pathways to Success (Free E-Book): https://mixedorientation.com/
OurPath (Empowering Straight Partners of LGBT+ People): https://ourpath.org/
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Transcript
Introduction to Mixed Orientation Couples
00:00:00
Speaker
Music
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello everybody. Welcome back to 2 Bye Guys. I think you guys are going to love this episode. It's about one of our favorite topics that many, many of you listeners identify with. Today we're going to talk about mixed orientation couples. And my guest is Joshua Gebhardt.
00:00:32
Speaker
He is a licensed marriage and family therapist in the Atlanta area. And he specializes in working with mixed orientation couples. In fact, his 2024 dissertation is titled The Experiences of Counselors Working with Mixed Orientation Couples.
Expert Insight with Joshua Gebhardt
00:00:50
Speaker
And he also leads multiple support groups, including one for women who are married to queer men, which I found fascinating and which we will talk about, and lots of other stuff that we'll get into.
00:01:03
Speaker
Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Joshua Gebhardt. Hey, thanks so much. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'm very happy that we connected. you know The most popular episodes of this show have been the ones about mixed orientation couples and specifically bisexual men married to women.
00:01:24
Speaker
And that's what I wrote my book about. And yet we haven't really had the ah counseling perspective and someone who works with a lot of these actual couples. I work with a lot of these men, but not couples. And so I'm very excited to hear your point of view.
00:01:42
Speaker
Welcome. Yeah, i mean, for for sure. I mean, and it's not surprising to me that you haven't had that experience because i don't think there's a ton of counselors out there doing this work.
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah, I know that because I just received a request to be referred to someone who specializes in this and like you came to mind and that's great. But like he didn't know where to look. I didn't know where else to look. think Thankfully, we had met recently and I could refer him to you, but there are not a lot of resources and there are a lot of counselors and therapists who do not know how to navigate this at all.
00:02:21
Speaker
absolutely So your perspective today will be valuable. And also, I i introduced you incorrectly. You just completed the PhD. So it's Dr. Joshua Gebhardt, in fact. Yes, yes,
Defining Mixed Orientation Couples
00:02:32
Speaker
yes. i I don't think I'll ever make a victory lap on that one again.
00:02:35
Speaker
ah ah Well, welcome, doctor. My apologies. OK, so i in a little bit, I want to hear your story, too. But let's like start with with the basics of this.
00:02:49
Speaker
And like your dissertation is about mixed orientation couples. What is a mixed orientation couple? How do you define it? um Yeah. So ah and again, a I apologize if my answers today are like really lengthy. I am a therapist and so I don't get a too often of a chance to talk myself. so Amazing.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, but I'll try to make it concise. So, you know, historically, if you looked at like what a mixed orientation couple is, you know, you, some of the research dates back to like the seventies and eighties.
00:03:26
Speaker
Um, but you know, at that time, mixed orientation couples were really seen as like heterosexual couples where, you know, the, the, the the husband was in some ways acting out sexually with other men.
00:03:43
Speaker
And then, you know, as the 80s and 90s approach, and even until the early 2000s, you start really getting into like, you know, ah society starts understanding more things around identification and the importance of that.
00:03:59
Speaker
um And and the the definition kind of changes and shifts, you know, you know just a ah little bit there. But in and in present time, we would say that it's it's a couple and in who has at least one partner or or spouse that identifies as something non-heterosexual.
Challenges in Conservative Areas
00:04:20
Speaker
Cool. And like, it is interesting. i mean, maybe we'll get more into this later, but it is interesting that like you went right to where the man is the fluid one, as opposed to the woman, like it could be both ways, but why is that like sort of your focus? It seems.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah. So, i mean, historically, if we we look at the experience of, of queer or lesbian women, um, men didn't,
00:04:50
Speaker
or society didn't really even give them a chance to like identify, you know, that this was an actual identity. And, you know, it it really was not given too much credit if, you know, a woman experienced some type of bisexuality or was actually a lesbian. um and And so, you know, with that history being being there, like, you know, ultimately,
00:05:20
Speaker
I have worked with a a range of couples who it's it's mostly the the man that's that's struggling with this. I'm positioned it in the South, ah in Atlanta, and there's a lot of religious and conservative groups here.
00:05:38
Speaker
um and so you know I just have had the the experience of of mostly seeing men. It's not to say that it doesn't happen with women, but you know my practice is just really focused on that.
00:05:52
Speaker
no Yeah. Yeah. mean, there there may be many reasons for it. and i don't want to judge everything based on gender, but it does. My experience has been like when it's the queer man with a woman, that is a particular struggle. There are particular challenges where, and like not as much resources or support for it.
00:06:18
Speaker
um And yeah, the, ah the other way around feels like it's more common and accepted and understood in some way. I don't know, maybe, and or maybe the women are less,
00:06:30
Speaker
less interested in exploring outside the marriage and that's maybe why there's less conflict. Okay. But let's, let's get into that conflict. and maybe that just yeah goes to Just to speak to that, like, yeah, I mean, if we, we look at, you know, prevalence rates of bisexuality amongst men and women, um you know,
00:06:49
Speaker
it's much bisexuality is much higher in women now again i'm sure you can speak to this but like uh i would say a lot of that's you know culturally and and and how society has kind of like conditioned the experience of of same-sex engagement um you know for for a lot of straight men uh same-sex engagement between two women is is something that is is not taboo. It's it's actually enjoyable.
00:07:19
Speaker
um Whereas, you know, when to two men are engaging sexually, that has a little bit more of a a negative connotation culturally. Right. Right. if a If a wife comes to her husband and says, I want to explore with another woman, then you know It's just like we have this obvious natural reaction that is definitely culturally ingrained that's like, oh, hot. But when it's the other way around and a guy wants to be with other men outside his marriage, it you can just almost feel the tension without even having to go any further than that.
00:07:56
Speaker
Absolutely. So you, okay. Your, your intro to your dissertation says these mixed orientation couples face distinctive challenges that result in high relational distress and low relationship satisfaction.
Therapeutic Approaches and Challenges
00:08:12
Speaker
We're going to talk about how to like, how to navigate that. But can you tell us like, what are some of those distinctive challenges? Yeah.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i I think I I think before talking about that, like it's really important to discuss like um like, you know, there there are mixed orientation couples that do experience moderate to high levels of satisfaction.
00:08:37
Speaker
I'm just not seeing them in my therapy sessions because they're they're not distressed. um and i And I think that that's one of the reasons why I i focused on the the man's experience or the husband's experience um was because those were the couples that I saw mostly struggle.
00:08:57
Speaker
um and And so, you know, those couples were, you know, coming into to therapy and they're they're just highly traumatized when they come into session. um You know, like...
00:09:13
Speaker
most of the time sexual disorder a sexuality that's disclosed that's non-heteronormative uh sexuality um is oftentimes seen as like a a betrayal or an affair and so you know you're you're getting couples that are coming into session just i can traumatize both them are traumatized um you know they maybe somebody uh there was affairs involved or the the wife found an email chain or received an anonymous letter from somebody about her, you know, her husband's work travels.
00:09:51
Speaker
But the the couples that are coming to me have have not talked about this openly. And I would say you know most of the couples that you know do just fine after disclosure have typically arranged their their marriage to be some type of non-monogamous agreement in the beginning that they've talked about, they've planned for as maybe a potential option over the course of their relationship. But most of the couples that are coming in to work with me in session are heteronormative presenting and have agreed to be in some type of monogamous relationship and again the the the non
00:10:30
Speaker
heteronormative person, the queer person in the relationship in this sense that the husband, again, is either have just been found out through an affair or is beginning to have a, you know, questionings of of his sexuality.
00:10:44
Speaker
But regardless, all of those instances are seen as really traumatic for both people. Yeah, that makes sense. And like even in the cases without ah infidelity, even just the non-disclosure can feel like a betrayal, right? It's like, oh, if you knew ah when did you know this about yourself? If you knew this, why didn't you tell me? Because you know that what is a partnership or marriage? But like being able to share this stuff, do you see that too, even without infidelity? Yeah.
00:11:17
Speaker
Oh my gosh, absolutely. I mean, um you know, it's, it's the the notion that like, if you have the attraction, or if you have the feeling, then, then you're, you're cheating on me.
00:11:30
Speaker
um And then you add the layer of it being a being taboo, because maybe the husband's gay or bisexual. And that forces, ah and unfortunately, the the wife into this position of, of of feeling betrayed,
00:11:45
Speaker
ah feeling like she's kind of been just like bulldozed with this information or or deceived in some ways, you know, that that her husband hasn't shared this really, really intimate detail with her prior to this point.
00:11:58
Speaker
You know, and again, these these are couples that have been together some of the times for, you know, 25, 35 years. You know, they have kids. They've established a life together. Their community is shared amongst them.
00:12:11
Speaker
Extended family is involved. You know, and so the disclosure of this just marks such panic because, you know, it's almost like. Before you even, you know, you know, do any kind of therapy, the couple's already kind of like predetermined, like, you know, our life's over. You know, this is this has got to stop. This has got to end. And, you know, there's there's no way forward.
00:12:33
Speaker
m Interesting. What do you work on them? I mean, we'll get I don't even know where to go next. But what do you what do you do in that situation when you have a couple like like how do you navigate that with them?
00:12:46
Speaker
um Well, I mean, i've I've been doing this work. long enough that I can be a little bit phys or a little cynical and be like, well, you you know, y'all need to go find a therapist because I i don't know what what's going to happen here. But obviously, I mean, I'm not saying that i'm I'm very empathically engaged with with what's going on in the moment. But I say I say that joke because, like, you know, it it is so distressing. um And we'll talk about my my my research in a little bit. But like, you know, that that was the.
00:13:14
Speaker
uh that was the issue of why i wanted to study this because because nobody was talking about it i mean even in the clinical community you know there's no there's no handbook there's no manual um and so for some of the the therapists and counselors that i i uh i interviewed and and studied, I mean, they they talked about just not having any resources. They had never seen this before.
00:13:36
Speaker
um And they surely didn't know what to do when when that happened. You know, again, it's it's panic all around. um and And the unfortunate part about that is when a couple's seeking therapy, you would hope that the therapist has at least enough grounding where they don't panic too.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense. Oh, we'll get, we'll get more into that and the counselor perspective on it and how that affects them. How long have you been doing this by the way? ah Oh goodness. About a decade now.
00:14:07
Speaker
Wow. You know, my research is mixed orientation couples goes back to even my, my master's or degree or my, my graduate degree in marriage and family therapy. I completed my thesis on that too.
00:14:23
Speaker
So, I mean, I've been doing this for about a decade now. Interesting.
00:14:35
Speaker
So you listed some of those challenges, like the disclosure of of sexuality or of like what's been going on, the potential either extramarital affairs that have already happened or oh you know the desire to explore this and open up marriages. There was another one in there that I thought was interesting, which is like sexual functioning being a concern. Can you talk about that, how what that looks like?
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, again, this is this is generally speaking. these are These are couples that are presenting for therapy. these you know These aren't couples that necessarily have prearranged poly relationships. These are heteronormative presenting couples.
00:15:16
Speaker
um but But those couples, when they present or you know key characteristics of their relationship is, a again, it's some type of low relationship satisfaction. They're having been difficulties with sexuality or sexual functioning.
00:15:31
Speaker
ah There's likely you know some type of difficulties with extramarital involvement. And unfortunately, these couples can tend to divorce really, really quickly once disclosure happens.
00:15:44
Speaker
you know So those are those are kind of kind the the common characteristics that you'll see in therapy. um But, you know, more so so than that, like, you know, that's that's what we're working on. You know, we're working on the aspect of the disclosure of sexuality.
00:15:59
Speaker
ah We're looking at how to navigate relationship boundaries. And we are looking at how the couple is going to function function as a couple sexually. Why do you think that happens that sexual functioning becomes an issue when this comes up?
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah, because, you know. I just would say like the the couples that I've seen struggle with the the understanding of what sex means in their relationship, ah not just simply because, you know, there's some type of like sexual preference differences, but like there is genuinely a new identity that's presenting itself in the relationship, you know, and so it just like, it just creates and and houses this, um this whole new like world and in some ways, then, and again, because, you know,
00:16:55
Speaker
sexual identity is so core and to who we are. i mean, you know, both individuals are just really seeing this as a almost like an an immovable object. like you know, and and you'll you'll hear these couples say things like, you know, he's either gay or he's not like it, you know, like, what's the answer here?
00:17:15
Speaker
And, you know, counselors just go, you know, they just panic, you know, but, but, but again, it's because they, they they are just so traumatized by
Couples' Responses to Sexuality Disclosure
00:17:24
Speaker
the fact that, you know, I'm not gay or I'm not straight and my husband's not straight.
00:17:30
Speaker
And, and I mean, maybe I'm getting a little bit too far off on a tangent here. ah but there's there's oftentimes not the, or, or, the husbands per se, the wives also have this, this difficulty, but the husband, some of the times are coming into session going, I'm not gay.
00:17:50
Speaker
you know, i have sex with men. I watch porn with only men in it. I think about men, I dream about men, but I'm not gay, you know? And so,
00:18:02
Speaker
It's difficult for a counselor to like see all these kinds sexual behaviors and expressions, but just such a resistance to even identify as gay or bisexual. Oh, as gay or bisexual. so that's the interesting part is like, you mentioned like, oh, you're either gay or you're not gay. And like, my mind is like, no, you can be ah somewhere in the middle, of course. And like many people just don't, are not aware of bisexuality or don't think it's a thing. So like when the guys come in to see you, is that something they're struggling with? Like, am I gay or bi and how do I know?
00:18:40
Speaker
Um, yeah, you know, I had a one of my colleagues and also somebody that I got to know through the the research that I did talked about how um like the intake call for the couple.
00:18:57
Speaker
ah She talked about how the husband said, Hey, we can do therapy together, but you just need to know I'm not gay. You know, and and And there was just like no no questions asked, like there was just no willingness to even identify with that when there was just, again, such a discrepancy between his identity and and what his sexual attractions and behaviors were. um Yeah, so I mean, you know, it it's difficult because
00:19:28
Speaker
you know, the husband's experiencing that while on the other end, you know, the, the wife is going, okay, let's figure this out. What's, what's going on? Like, we need to know something. And, and, you know, again, there's just like, just so much pressure to figure, figure out everything all at once and in the beginning of things.
00:19:47
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. I'm going to dig into that for a second. Are you saying like some of the guys when they're saying like, I'm not gay, are they kind of like, maintaining a straight identity to maintain the marriage and then kind of trying to expand the bounds of straightness. Like I'm straight and I just like this thing for these other reasons. It's not part of my sexuality. It reminds me of like Joe Court. i don't know if you're aware of him, of who I have some issues with, but is that kind of what you're saying? And are they just like ignoring the i the possibility of bi and working within this binary idea?
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm i'm really familiar with ah Joe's work. ah He's a colleague of mine. I spoke to him several times. And, you know, for the most part, he's written the most comprehensive book there is on it. And.
00:20:37
Speaker
and I think the title of the book is, is my husband gay straight or bi. And that mean, I think it was published almost 20 years ago, you know? And so even though as comprehensive as, as it is, like, there's just, there's just not a lot of resources out there to, to understand this. And so, you know, what, what I'm suggesting is, is that most of the time,
00:20:58
Speaker
There is just a discrepancy between how the husband is attempting to identify and hold on to some of the times in a desperate attempt to maintain this heteronormative straight identity, whereas there's almost this whole entire other life that one he's never unpacked or understood.
00:21:18
Speaker
And all of a sudden it's bleeding out into his everyday life and now his marriage and the person that knows him the best now knows this piece of information that he has to kind of come clean about. Um, and so I would say most of the time it's, it's about preservation for sure. During that initial stages of panic.
00:21:38
Speaker
m Interesting. know, there's, there's, um, one of the, uh, the counselors in the in the study that I did, um, you know, talked about one of the couples that they, they saw and, and, and just kind of a general theme of how couples act at this stage. And he said, you know, it's like couples almost like come in and say like, Hey, we we've got to like change his sexuality, but we like, can't get a divorce. Like that's not going to happen.
00:22:05
Speaker
You know, so they, they put, you know, changing your sexuality on the chopping block rather than maybe understanding the, the context of how their marriage is is existing. You know, and and again, if if I could, like ah these these couples have, you know, 20 to 30 years together of a life, you know, and then all of a sudden something like, you know, disclosure of an affair or or sexuality to being something that's not
Outcomes for Mixed Orientation Couples
00:22:29
Speaker
straight. I mean, it just it just drops a bomb in their life.
00:22:33
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. You know, one of the the the things I hear people ask, like when when I work with them or I was just at this how conference, it's a conference for husbands out to wives, is like, you know, just like what's going to happen? and And we'll get into like how you figure that out.
00:22:53
Speaker
But you had like a kind of a statistic in, in there of just like, basically there's three buckets of what can happen. And it's roughly a third of the time. These three things happen.
00:23:05
Speaker
Can you share what those are? Yeah, absolutely. outcomes Yeah. and And just to be really clear that this information or statistics comes from, um research that was done like back in the 2000s. And the statistic came from like a, like um ah like an online forum or a message board for this.
00:23:30
Speaker
And so, you know, like this is not like actually something that like we sat down a thousand people and looked at this. This is just kind of like, uh, you know, qualitative data, but ah to some degree, but that, you know, but but it is ah you know, quantitative and and in the statistics portion of this, because what the researcher found was about ah ah third of these couples divorce really quickly.
00:23:54
Speaker
And then another third, typically ah stay together for about two to five years, and then divorce. And then the other third stay together, don't divorce.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. I like, I wish we had amazing up-to-date data, like, especially as this stuff is becoming more known and understood. i really wonder what, like,
00:24:18
Speaker
the the data is, but that's sort of, that's an interesting, at least one point of data and, and kind of makes sense that like, I mean, just of among people I've met and known people at this how conference that, that kind of feels right. That like about a third will, will navigate it and stay together about a third. We'll just, they're done when this happens, you know, you do see that a decent amount and then probably another third work on it and ultimately decide,
00:24:48
Speaker
You know, they're they're not meant to be together. And sometimes it's not even because of this, but sometimes this, what I've seen is like, opening this door leads to a lot more authenticity and vulnerability and really communicating about tough things. And sometimes that can lead to like a realization that they don't want to be in this marriage for other reasons. um Or just like the fact that this is difficult to navigate.
00:25:18
Speaker
It's not the thing itself, but it's the meta communication that causes this realization. Um, so that's a really interesting group. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, i think we're talking about all the negative parts of of these relationships right now. Um, and, and I mean, and unfortunately, I mean, that's, that's just what, what is, you know, faced for counselors working with these couples in in therapy sessions. But the, you know, the, the one saving grace that I, that came up for me was in, in the,
00:25:52
Speaker
the the statistics and then the data, these couples were reporting that they were seeking counsel. And so, you know, when I was, when I was looking at this, I was like, oh like okay, oh my gosh, like there's, there's so much difficulties for these couples, but they are going to therapy, you know, so, you what's happening in the therapy session, you know, what's being done to, to work with these couples.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Perfect segue. That's what I want to get into, but just like, to put I'm glad you mentioned that because it often does feel like doom and gloom, especially when you are in counseling or go to message boards for support or go to a support group. And it is important to remember that like those are the the people posting on a message board are the ones struggling with it. And that's why they end up there. And there may be a whole bunch of people who...
00:26:44
Speaker
navigate this really well because they communicate well and they love each other and like they're not seeking support so how do we know they exist and like I definitely have seen couples where they come out maybe it's hard and they have to navigate this but it opens up new pathways of communication. They get more intimate with each other because they're sharing themselves more deeply. And like, it can be this amazing experience. So who knows how many of those are out there that are just not, we don't see it.
Research and Therapy Efficacy
00:27:18
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I, well, yeah, we'll get into them more of that, but apps absolutely. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.
00:27:34
Speaker
Okay, so let's transition to talk about like what your dissertation is about and the importance of like the experience of counselors working um with these couples. So like you you wrote that there's a significant lack of understanding of how counselors work with mixed orientation couples. There's very little research on their experiences in couples therapy. So like what what have you learned from interviewing and researching these counselors or your own work? Like, what do you want to share about that their experience?
00:28:09
Speaker
Yeah, um I mean, first off, it's hard to operationalize success in couples therapy regardless. You know, whatever type of relationship it is, you know, like, how do you actually, like, tell, you know, a whole group of people that, like, therapy's been successful? You know, it it can really be subjective around, like,
00:28:32
Speaker
you know, how the couple's approving and, you know, what it is that is their goal, you know, but, but I think that that also lends itself to, you know, why studying this was so difficult because, you know, what's a marker for success for these couples, you know, is it, yeah is it relationship preservation?
00:28:51
Speaker
um is it living authentically? You know, i mean, it, it, it's just a, it's just a challenge to actually identify what that is. Yeah.
00:29:01
Speaker
Yeah. that That's ah um an amazing point because like at least with a lot of people I've met, ah you tell me if this is your experience, but like initially relationship preservation seems to be like the the first goal, but then that can often shift. And many of the people who are like really happy in the end end up splitting. And sometimes I've even met people, there was someone in my book who's a been on this podcast who like,
00:29:31
Speaker
has a better relationship with his wife now that they're divorced. And they're still friends, they're still co-parents, they are more intimate and authentic than ever. They just don't live together and they're not married.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Which again, I think contributes to why mixed orientation couples have kind of been left out of, you know, the equation for what, what goes on in couples therapy, because it's, you know, it's just such a vastly different way to understand a relationship.
00:29:59
Speaker
And so, you know, and again, I'm, I'm excited to talk more about the, you know, the dynamics and the the forces that play into that. But, you know, again, they're just there wasn't a ton of research out there.
00:30:13
Speaker
um And and and and personally, because I was in a mixed orientation relationship, um, at the time that me and my ex-wife sought therapy.
00:30:28
Speaker
I mean, and I'm not trying to exaggerate or be hyperbolic here, but like, I mean, I think we went to probably about 10 different people either as a couple or individually, um, you know, ah support systems like uh you know our pastor that married us people that we knew from our past that were you know kind of like uh spiritual or religious you know like uh you know like mentors uh we sought professional help we went to a couples counselor that was referred to us by a family member
00:31:03
Speaker
We went and sought our own individual therapist. I spent time with her her therapist. And, you know, the the unfortunate part about this is that I don't think any of those um those support outlets were were actually really helpful.
00:31:22
Speaker
um I mean, you know, there was there was experiences during that time where you know, i I recall like speaking to, you know, religious leaders and, um, one person in particular said, Hey, you know, if, if you want your, your gayness to go away, like I can do that for you.
00:31:41
Speaker
And I had, I had even, i even had like, you know, I remember though this one time and being in in couples counseling where,
00:31:53
Speaker
Me and my ex-wife came into the session and were obviously both just so overwhelmed. The counselor, yeah i mean, his eyes are, you know, huge. He doesn't know what to do. It's 15, 20 minutes into the session. he just said, hey, can you know, can I just speak to you individually talking about me?
00:32:10
Speaker
um And he separated me and he and he looked at me and said, are you gay? And I said, i mean, i don't know. he said, because if you're gay, I really can't help you.
00:32:21
Speaker
And wow we talked about that a little bit. And, and then he brought my ex-wife back in and he was like, well, it was good seeing y'all. um You know, we'll be in touch, you know, and and just sent us on our way, you know? And so it it it was, it was instance like that time after time after again, where, you know, I mean, this is my own experience, but you know, I would have hoped that a seeking support during that time would have helped preserve, um,
00:32:50
Speaker
our our relationship in some way and it not be so conflictual. So, you know, again, I read this in research, but it's also just a, you know, something personally I dealt with. Wow. ah Yeah, I want to hear more about your whole story in ah in a few minutes. that That's insane to say, like, if you're gay, I can't help you. Like, that i mean, just the like, what is a counselor or a therapist? If not, like, follow the client's lead and navigate wherever they are and wherever they want to be. Like, that's...
00:33:24
Speaker
That's crazy. And it's very judgmental to like, assume that, you know, the what the goals are that you had or like, and what that means even to be if you were gay within that relationship. That's why. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm rolling my eyes and crossing my arms at that.
00:33:42
Speaker
Well, but I mean, again, this is. you know, that this isn't like decades and decades ago, you know, this is more of a recent experience for me. And so, you know, I would have thought that that there would have been much more education around this. You know, I kind of, yeah because I grew up religious, I kind of assumed what I was going to hear in those religious settings, but for the professional community to to say those things, it it was it was upsetting. yeah i mean, you know, ah one time ah we met as a couple with my ex-wife's individual counselor. And again, the same thing.
00:34:13
Speaker
told my ex-wife, hey, can you just go sit out in the the lot lobby and waiting room and let me talk to him? And, you know, she just downloads and she's like, Josh, I knew you were gay the first time I met you.
00:34:25
Speaker
You know, and here I am going through, you know, just uncovering parts of my sexuality for the first time. And, you know, I'm like, well, I mean, thanks for telling me, you know, like, I'm glad you know now.
00:34:40
Speaker
You know, and so, again, those kind of experiences were just they were harmful for me. And I think, again, it made it difficult for us to navigate that that part of our relationship. Yeah, totally. That many people have told me that that response, like, oh yeah, I knew, i knew all along. It's just like not helpful. ah And it's even though it's like, I mean, it's just kind of judgmental and brings up a lot. You know, i I can't believe I forgot to ask you this at the beginning and we'll get into your story in a minute, but like, how do you identify your sexuality?
00:35:13
Speaker
um You know, I, I, I identify as queer. oh cool you know what I think in most spaces I i would share the term or identify as gay, um but queer feels most appropriate.
00:35:31
Speaker
Cool. Okay, we'll get more into it in a minute. You you also mentioned like couples therapy versus individual therapy. What was your um research focused on and like how how are the experiences of counselors different from those you know two modalities?
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, that that was something that I had to operationalize and say, look, I can i really only want to work on studying counselors that have worked with a couple in therapy. Because individual counseling is is very different. um you know And and so so so couples therapy is is obviously going to include both partners or both spouses.
00:36:17
Speaker
and And some of the times, ah and and this is this is a ah common thing to do, but you know i um a couples counselor will split up the couple and meet with them individually some of the
Navigating Shame and Identity
00:36:29
Speaker
times.
00:36:29
Speaker
Because sometimes you have to do that. And I would say like, you know my experience of being split up in the session was was not helpful. you know I'm like, why are y'all telling me all this? Like, why why are we not talking you know as a group about about this? I'm trying to figure out this just much as she is. And so,
00:36:46
Speaker
um You know, I would say that unfortunately, some of the times though, the reason why you, you need a combination of both is because generally the first part of of treatment is just education, you know, like really getting to the understanding, like what's going on in the relationship and how do we understand sexuality?
00:37:07
Speaker
Because again, there is just such a dissonance between understanding sexuality. One from a basis of like, even if somebody has been in a relationship for, over 10 years and they have, you know, they've never been with somebody of the same sex. And then all of a sudden they have one offhanded experience, you know, and then their identity starts and unraveling.
00:37:28
Speaker
um And so even for somebody like that, you know, a counselor is kind of tasked with the beginning of session to really kind of educate about sexuality. and And you know this, that there's just so much nuance within the biology of sexuality that it can be difficult um to to understand ah you know the the the full spectrum of of of sexuality, you know especially within only 45 minutes or an hour.
00:37:56
Speaker
um But there are some things that we can kind of hang our hat on. um and And I take this from... from Joe Court's work, but he he talks about this this beach test.
00:38:08
Speaker
um And the beach test is just so ah essentially like, you know if you're sitting on a beach, you know who who are you typically looking at? Is it is it men or women? And it seems like such a simple test, but if you look at the biology ah behind that, like and again, there might be some new research or some of that arguing with me about this, but like men are typically visually stimulated.
00:38:32
Speaker
um And so you can you can typically see where a man's eyes go, oh you know, what it is that they're interested in sexually. We've we've looked at study about studies about know,
00:38:45
Speaker
um you know straight men typically are looking at, uh, at the chest and gay or bisexual men are oscillating between that and and the growing region. Um, and, and I share this because again, you know, you, you, as a counselor, you have this, this man who, or, or husband who is just confused yeah and they just, they don't know there, there is ah ah a need for general education about that. So again, a lot, lot of that is, it's just educating at the beginning, like, you know, getting down to, some type of orientation.
00:39:19
Speaker
You know, you you take kind of like a little bit of a sexual inventory and um how they understand how their sexualities develop. Because again, again, there's there's so many people that would argue with me about this. But for these couples, a lot of times we need ah a basis for how we're understanding what we're up against here.
00:39:39
Speaker
Because the experience of a gay man married to a straight woman compared to a bisexual man married to a straight woman is very different.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah. ah I was going to say something else, but since you left off on there, can you tell us that? Well, we we see, I mean, I know it's sort of obvious, but like, yeah, what's the difference? sure. sure Yeah. So we, we typically see men that are bisexual, um, have higher levels of satisfaction and in their in their relationship with straight women. Whereas men who are maybe more explicitly gay report a much lower satisfaction in those relationships.
00:40:22
Speaker
That makes sense. ah Yeah. And also, like, it also makes sense what you said before about couples therapy and individual. It's like, especially if people are coming to couples therapy having just disclosed or so an affair has come out, like,
00:40:38
Speaker
the guy may not fully understand himself at this moment. If this is like a new thing that bubbled up, you know, it took me years to read stuff online and figure out what I was and go to discussion groups. And thankfully I wasn't in a long-term marriage at that time. So I could just navigate it on my own without having to worry about like how this affected a current partner.
00:41:04
Speaker
And like individual therapy was really helpful and necessary for me to come to an understanding. And I did that for ah a while before I started coming out to anyone. And so to just jump into couples therapy without the understanding yourself, I can imagine that that would be trickier to navigate. And there's an education component of just like, you know, level setting or something.
00:41:32
Speaker
Oh my gosh, absolutely. And, and unfortunately, you know, as the counselor, you're, you're doing this education with so much shame that's been, you know, is, is just touching all aspects of the couple, you know, shame that like, how could I have done this? Who am I?
00:41:52
Speaker
And this is for both the husband and the wife, you know, and, and and so it's, you know, you're, you're trying to offer your best, you education and understanding of what's going on. But at the same time, like you're doing so much just deescalation of like, you know, you know, we we don't this doesn't mean the relationship has to end, you know, like we everybody can take a breath. But because, again, there's just so much, you know, shame involved, it it it feels like there's that's not an option.
00:42:24
Speaker
Right. So much shame and also potentially tension between them and worry about what's next. And like sometimes it just takes some time to to figure out where you are and who you are before you can decide um what's to happen next. like Do you recommend people, and let's say people are in that situation where this has just sort of come up,
00:42:48
Speaker
Suddenly or maybe for the wife more suddenly than for the husband, like, do you recommend they go to individual therapy first? Do you recommend they do it in conjunction? Like, what's your advice?
00:43:00
Speaker
I mean, yeah. So, I mean, as ah a marriage family therapist, I'm always going to lean more towards relationship work. But let me be very clear. Individual counseling is so important during this time.
00:43:13
Speaker
um And again, not just with other counselors. I mean, yeah, I'm always looking for referrals to send, you know, the the the couple out individually. But, you know, for me, I mean, I'm i'm needing to meet with ah with each partner individually. I mean, it's it's imperative. And the reason why, I mean, is You know, i can't tell you the heartbreak that comes from, you know, working with a husband who is just so embarrassed and so shamed and ridden with shame about understanding this piece of identity while his grieving
00:43:50
Speaker
significant other and wife is sitting in the room, you know, and so as as she's listening to him uncover the parts of his identity and and going down, you know, who him understanding who he is and I mean, essentially coming out of the closet, you know, I mean, she's she's just melting, you know, and it's it's horrible, you know, it's horrible to watch that process. And so as a counselor, you have to be really um attuned to that and in And if that's if that reactivity is is taking place, I mean, I'm very quick to separate a couple and say, hey, you know, I'd like to maybe meet with you all individually just for the next few sessions so we can get a couple things um understood and we can kind of get on the same page.
00:44:30
Speaker
Because again, ah there's there's just such a tension behind, you know, like we can't we can't be anything other than straight heteronormative. We have three kids. We go to church. Like we can't do anything else.
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah. Fascinating. it Do you, when you do that, like, how do you, know do is there any triangulation that you do? Like when you, if you hear something from both sides of this, that they maybe can't yet share with each other, but they can feel comfortable sharing with you.
00:45:06
Speaker
How do you navigate like relaying that information? Is there any ever sometimes like you share it instead of them sharing it with each other? Or do you facilitate, how do you facilitate them sharing it with each other? oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean,
00:45:20
Speaker
You know, obviously, I want to promote a sense of agency for for both parties here. um But I mean, there's been multiple times where both parties have just said, can you just help me communicate this? I can't. I don't know how to do it. And so, of course, you know, there's there's a lot of that going on. But I would i would also say, like, you know, as a ah couples therapist, like i'm I'm constantly in the middle of things. i I mean, one of my jobs is to be a secret keeper. um And it's it's not to mean that, like, I'm trying to be manipulative or deceive.
00:45:53
Speaker
But I mean, that's just kind of the essence of being a third party witnessing, you know, a couple go through what they're going through. You know, so individually, and this is unfortunately a a phenomenon that takes place here or or again, a characteristic, is's just the difficulty with extramarital involvement. I mean, i I'm spending a lot of time individually with the husband asking explicit questions of like, are you currently sexually active? You know, like, are you currently engaging with other men?
00:46:22
Speaker
Obviously from a relationship perspective, I'm wanting understand that, but too from a health perspective, you know i think you know these statistics, but you know closeted gay and bisexual men have the highest transmission rates of of things like STDs and HIV.
00:46:39
Speaker
um And again, i would i would say the reasons why we would suggest that's the case is that, one, the shame aspect. They're not going to go to a free clinic and sit down and talk with a a medication or a medical provider about their sexual behaviors. And so they engage in these risky behaviors and, you know, they, they put themselves and and their wives at risk. So I, I really have to understand that because I mean, and this is not uncommon that, and this has happened multiple times in session that I
00:47:11
Speaker
am encouraging the husband that we have to tell her about these things because she's that thing at risk for, you know, some type of transmission of of disease or infection, you know, and things like, you know, HPV can be very asymptomatic.
00:47:29
Speaker
um And it it's it's really detrimental to women. It can easily lead to cervical cancer. And again, that's a common STD or virus that can be transmitted. so we have to be looking at safety in these instances. And i I cannot tell you how intense the shame is when the husband shares this and then his, his wife has to go get a, a drug screen and she's positive for things like gonorrhea or syphilis and, or maybe has contracted things like herpes, you know? And I mean, again, the husband is just ridden with shame, but again, it's my job as a therapist to make sure that, you know, those things don't continue because i mean, we got to keep people safe. I mean, there's, there's nothing like being in therapy for three to six months.
Therapist Competency and Referrals
00:48:21
Speaker
And then all of a sudden,
00:48:22
Speaker
a couple discloses that one of them been having an affair the whole time. You know, when you just go back to square one. So you you really going to have to flesh those things out at the beginning. Right, right. It makes sense that like shame about your sexuality or practices would would lead to not getting tested. But like then the shame of what can happen from that is is probably like 10 times worse. And it makes sense. So everyone go get tested. You can do it for free. Probably you can get on prep. I get tested every three months. You know, it's easy. Go do it. And it can be free.
00:48:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for if you have insurance, it probably is free. And there are probably if you don't, there are places you can do it for free and confidentially. So at the at the very least, start there.
00:49:11
Speaker
um It's good for you too. ah If you have something, it's good to know. um You know, I get the shame of it, but what is, what is, is. um Find out. Okay. Before we move on to you and your story, which I'm more, i which I'm curious about, like,
00:49:30
Speaker
Is there anything else you want people to know about like the counseling experience or is there anything you want counselors and therapists to know about if a client like comes in like this or a couple comes in?
00:49:47
Speaker
um I mean, i mean, yeah, I mean, for for sure. I mean, we could talk for an hour probably about this and and if stuff comes up later, that's great. But yeah, what comes to mind?
00:50:00
Speaker
I mean, first off, I just would say like, a as ah as a counselor, like don't oh
00:50:11
Speaker
Don't work outside of your competencies. You know, we're ethically bound by that. And, you know, mixed orientation couples are not like essentially a protected group, but in in some instances, they're a minority.
00:50:24
Speaker
And so you should have some um additional knowledge or education about what's going on here. you know, if if you don't feel like comfortable, you can do more harm by by faking it, you know, make an appropriate referral and reach out to other providers in your area who maybe do do work like this.
00:50:43
Speaker
m Cool. And if you're navigating this, go see Dr. Joshua Gebhardt for couples counseling and come see me for individual coaching. Perfect.
00:50:55
Speaker
Don't look any further. All right. Well, okay. This is wonderful. I kind of feel like this is going to be a two-part episode and this may be the split point. So so listeners, if you're hearing this, come back next time to hear joshua's story um and thanks for listening to this episode and uh yeah okay and now we'll just get right into your story um so here we go part two stay tuned for part two next week
00:51:30
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Minzer. help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash robertbrookscohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit robertbrookscohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.
00:51:58
Speaker
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.