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Bi for Bi with Wade Shephard
2 Playsin 7 hours
Welcome to the season 9 finale of Two Bi Guys (By One Bi Guy)! My guest is Wade Shephard, founder of a play party called “Bi for Bi”, which takes place quarterly in New York City. We chatted about why he started a party that caters to bisexuality (and specifically offers a venue for bi men to explore openly), what the party is like, and the kinky icebreakers that get things going (human cake anyone?) – plus one of the other parties Wade facilitates, focused on gangbangs, and how sexual fluidity plays a role. We also got into Wade’s queer journey, which he described as easier than most and without much drama, and how his sexuality and masculinity co-exist.
Thanks for listening to this season of Two Bi Guys, and stay tuned for more! The cadence and focus of my work is always shifting, but I plan to continue having these conversations and sharing more stories in the very near future – stay tuned.
Follow Wade on IG: https://www.instagram.com/the.slutlife
Join Hacienda, the club that hosts “Bi for Bi”: https://wearehacienda.com/
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Check out Two Bi Guys on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@twobiguys
Free intro call with Rob re: coaching: https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/25-minute-free-intro-call
Share your story with me! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftX6JoZ2CUJ5QVNSxiy0wzMPJiq6Vp3jrWZpXtvGnLQtIHmA/viewform?usp=header
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Transcript
Introduction to the Episode and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
All right, everyone, welcome back to a new episode of Two Bye Guys. Thanks for bearing with me. I've been traveling all summer. I've been very busy. We haven't done a ton of new episodes lately, but I'm very excited for this
Origin and Success of 'Bye for Bye' Parties
00:00:26
Speaker
one.
00:00:26
Speaker
The idea for this one kind of in response to the BFF episode, which was really fun and I think fun for people to hear about. ah My guest today is Wade Shepherd. He created a party in New York called Bye for Bye.
00:00:41
Speaker
And I have not been to it, but I can't wait to go someday and to hear all about it today and about Wade's journey. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Wade Shepard. Thank you, Rob. niceta nice Nice to be on here with you.
00:00:54
Speaker
Yeah. Nice to meet you virtually. I hope we meet in person
Challenges for Bi Men in Public Spaces
00:00:58
Speaker
someday. So, uh, so I was recently with a friend who had listened to the BFF episode and she said, you should talk to this guy, Wade, cause she's been to your parties and she has thoroughly enjoyed them. And, uh,
00:01:15
Speaker
ah You know, I didn't realize, but I've actually I'm i'm a member of Hacienda, where the party is hosted. I've i've received emails about it. But, you know, I don't live in New York anymore. So I haven't gotten to one.
00:01:28
Speaker
So I want to start there. Like, tell me about this party and and how how it got started. Let's start there.
Inclusive Environment at 'Bye for Bye' Parties
00:01:36
Speaker
Okay, bye for bye. um It's basically ah a reaction to this like like this interesting phenomenon in pretty much any sex community.
00:01:47
Speaker
um Even like the really open, liberal-minded, progressive-minded communities, a lot of bye guys just at general parties so seem to feel a little bit insecure about hooking up with other guys.
00:01:59
Speaker
um I don't personally feel that way, but but a lot of them do Right. um i've had discussions about those how like message boards at hascienda and stuff like that but i guys feel like yo women see them having a sex with other guys they'd be less attracted to them which my track record has been completely opposite for that but you know that's how that's how they feel right and anyway there's like a lot of like i don't know like like this deeply rooted um I guess, insecurity about being publicly queer, even in publicly queer spaces.
00:02:31
Speaker
like yeah Almost like, I would say close about 85%. of the women who play at Hacienda are comfortable, feel comfortable playing with other women in that context. But maybe only about 10%, less than 10% of guys do, even like established bi or queer guys.
00:02:49
Speaker
It's just, it's just some strange phenomenon, some, some, some interest interesting hangup that we that we have, like, you know, from like how we grew up or, or whatever else. So we started this party intentionally for, you know, bi guys. Like there's like queer parties that are, know, of course all the way queer.
00:03:04
Speaker
And then there's other parties that tend to be more hetero, at least for males.
Games and Activities at the Parties
00:03:09
Speaker
So like, oh, we're going to come up with this party and it's going focused on, well, all genders and like like all sexual orientations but we're going focus on like having the special um this special like like platform for by males to interact with each other in the company of like women or people of like other gender expressions um and so that was the impetus for the party and uh We didn't know how it was going to work and we started it and it was it was it was a success, right? People actually showed up. We sold out just about every one.
00:03:40
Speaker
And yeah, it was like, wow. And people, like it's actually kind of a beautiful thing to like, you know, come up with this ideal for something, right? Come up with all these like weird, crazy games and stuff like that. And actually seeing in people like do the stuff that you imagined in the way that you imagined it happening. And it was like, wow, that really worked.
00:03:59
Speaker
ah Wow, interesting. I'm writing down things that I want to ask you about. when When did it start? How long has this party existed? Well, we just had the one year anniversary in September.
00:04:11
Speaker
like okay so we So we do them seasonally, so about every three months, more or less. So that was the fifth one.
Anniversary Celebration and Ice-Breaking Activities
00:04:18
Speaker
So we've been going for like a little over a year now. We actually had a birthday party for it, a birthday party for a party. That's kind of weird, but it worked.
00:04:25
Speaker
We had some human cake gang bangs and stuff like that. and it's Some party games. That sounds fun. I don't want to blow past that. What's a human cake party game? that cu communicate Well, Daniel, so we made these cakes like for the party because it's a birthday party. So you need cakes, right?
00:04:44
Speaker
So we made these human shaped cakes that we can put on willing participants and, you know, engage, eat some cake and eat, well, some cake. Yeah.
00:04:57
Speaker
uh sexually right so i also do gangbang parties and stuff like that too that was fun i also has a party games like ping the pin the plug in the donkey which is exactly which exactly what it sounds like which was which was wild right and some guy actually got it right which was amazing then another game we had like a penile ring toss in which i'm like nobody's gonna be able to Well, basically the game starts out with like, you know, one partner affiliates another partner that has a penis and they get city wrecked and then set back to a certain line, you toss a ring on it.
00:05:32
Speaker
Like nobody's going to be able to actually do this. It's just going to be funny and maybe slightly sexy, right? but Some girl nailed it, right? Wow. The whole crowd starts cheering and stuff. It's just a way to get people like, kind of like, well, the whole idea of behind the games is that, you know, people come into these spaces, they're feeling like a little bit insecure and a little bit vulnerable.
00:05:52
Speaker
So we put people in these positions that's like way more vulnerable and make them feel way more insecure than anybody at this party could ever possibly feel. Right. And for some reason about like seeing that and seeing somebody else doing something that's like so embarrassing, it kind of like um kind of chills people out, makes them feel more comfortable to just go and have like, you know, a
Volunteer Dynamics and Party Success
00:06:10
Speaker
normal orgy. Right.
00:06:11
Speaker
Oh, I love that. So, so that's like kind of how you start things off. Like you drop it. Yep. Yep. We give like the consent speech. It's just like, you know, go over all the rules of the party and like how to approach people to engage sexually. It just, just rules like, you don't get drunk and don't fuck the fucked up and stuff like that. Right.
00:06:31
Speaker
Now we go into these games and don't know, it's kind of like a nice little bonding experience. People cheer and they laugh and they joke. And usually the games are pretty weird. Yeah. That sounds like the perfect icebreaker. How do you get like people to volunteer or be the be the guinea pig? Are they like excited to do it?
00:06:49
Speaker
Somehow you got to Shanghai. But yeah, actually actually, most people are really excited to do
Judgment and Barriers for Bi Men
00:06:54
Speaker
it, which really blows my mind. right like We had this one game at a Buy4Buy called Butt Plug Tug of War.
00:07:00
Speaker
which is a four-way butt plug tug of war, like four strings tied to like an O-ring to butt plugs the last one with it. And like one of the games, like, man, nobody's going to be able to do this, right?
00:07:12
Speaker
We need at least two people to do it, right? So got some friends, hey, will you do this? They're like, yeah, of course. And then we had two more people just volunteer at the party. Like one girl, like, but didn't didn't even know, right?
00:07:23
Speaker
Like she she really found out that we announced the party and then she comes like striding out of the crowd with like her plug, like in her hand, like wanting to join. It's like, wow. That's pretty There's something about like the structure of that that like give feels like it might give people permission to explore something that they actually secretly want to, but like yeah wouldn't do on their own unless it's like part of a game. or like It's almost like, oh no, i i have to do that. Oh no, but actually there's a secret internal desire to want that. The girl who did Pin the Plug in the Donkey, she was like,
00:07:58
Speaker
it know was like It was almost like a dream come true. I was like, whoa, I thought I was going to have to beg you to this. She's like, no, really want to do it. I always wanted to do something like that. okay, well, here's your donkey, here's
Breaking Stigmas and Exploring Identities
00:08:11
Speaker
your donkey tail.
00:08:13
Speaker
Get up on the bench. and That's amazing. You know, i want to go back to something you said about like, um you know, these spaces like sex parties, um even the ones that are sort of queer oriented or queer focused can sometimes,
00:08:30
Speaker
feel like there's stigma for men to hook up with each other in a way that it's more accepted for women to hook up with each other. And you mentioned like at this party, the women are more into it, which got me thinking like when I'm at those other parties,
00:08:47
Speaker
where there is some stigma, it's almost like there's more judgment from the other men versus the women. like I wonder in general where the where the judgment comes from or where the perceived judgment comes from. like And actually, ah maybe for me or maybe just in my experiences, it's like it's other men that are more judgmental rather than the women. i don't know. What do you think?
00:09:13
Speaker
actually i mean at least places spaces like really progressive spaces and communities like hacienda i don't think that stigma really exists like i don't i don't think it's there well i've never been to hacienda so i'm not talking about that one that's all that's just in our head or like know this this fear of you know like like crossing over the line like like you're in a ah group scene with people and like you go around and like everyone says what they're into and what they're not into and all the women almost all the women like oh yeah i'm into other women But you just kind of need that one guy to be like, yo, I'm into other men, right? Because it's yeah it's like almost like like a fear of judgment from, um I would say mostly other men. Some guys express their fear of judgment from women as well.
00:09:56
Speaker
But um I just think it's own personal hang up, you know, maybe something that is dropping. And plus, I mean... A lot of is about breaking the ice, right? Like once the was ice is broken at the party, especially when people see other men playing together, especially like, you know, have an insert of like anal play.
00:10:13
Speaker
It's like, oh, okay. This is cool, right? Because I mean, that makes a lot of sense. That's the tone. Yeah, it makes sense that like everyone might be sort of concerned about that and secretly, again, secretly wanting to explore things, but not wanting to be the first one and not wanting to be judged. But everyone is thinking the same thing. So then once the ice is broken, then that everyone can sort of join in and participate without that that fear or shame.
Wade's Personal Experience with Sexual Fluidity
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, I'm pretty ah pretty expressive, in like like these kind of situations i'm very comfortable like sexually like in group scenes and stuff like that we haven't sometimes i'm doing like an mfm with my wife you know we're like sitting you know we meet someone and we sit down we discuss the scene and um i'm sometimes hesitant to be like you know you into you know with the other guy like yo are you into male-on-male play and sometimes i don't even do i i don't don't know why it's just uh-huh i don't i don't get i mean i but i would never be like that with a female right it's like yeah it's like
00:11:13
Speaker
This is just what we're supposed to be doing, right? ah Yeah. So and guys have the toy certain extent I mean, I've never felt any stigma from doing it, like like really felt it or experienced it.
00:11:25
Speaker
But I think maybe maybe the fear of turning off the other guy. ah especially like in MFM because you know sometimes you just keep the female partner in the middle right and the guys don't really touch each other very much ah but sometimes it's just like you know it's like a three-way orgy and everyone's doing everybody so I think you don't want to like you know you if don't know this person you don't want to like turn them off he's oh this this queer guy over on the other side of this woman might try to touch me you know something you know right but even though that's not going to happen and but more more than likely that's not going to happen in these communities but
00:12:00
Speaker
Right, for sure. And these within these communities, but it's interesting that that anxiety is still is still there. i've felt it, too, for us, even when we have a lot of experience and confidence. Like, yeah, you get in the other person's head and it's and it's almost even like um like they they may not.
00:12:23
Speaker
be not into it or or it may not necessarily even turn them off but it may trigger something in them that they're not yeah ready to deal with or talk about and so like even if they do want that sometimes the explicit talking about it can be uncomfortable especially if they're like new at it yeah and uh and you have to learn to get comfortable talking about it but like Not everyone's there and that can just lead to some awkwardness.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's exactly why we were created By4By. Just remove that awkwardness. Yeah. Cool. Everyone on the same page.
00:13:00
Speaker
I love it.
00:13:05
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to this episode of 2 Bye Guys. This is actually the season finale of season 9 of this show. This is something like the 90th episode, or maybe 91st. So thanks for sticking with me for 6 years of this show. Amazing. but don't worry, just because it's the end of season 9 doesn't mean it'll be a long wait for season 10. The cadence of this has obviously changed a little, there have been some big gaps this season.
00:13:33
Speaker
I've already recorded the first two episodes of season 10, so they will be coming relatively soon. i don't know when, but pretty soon. And that is a two-part episode with a counselor who specializes in working with mixed orientation couples So I think you guys will really enjoy that episode. We just did it the other day. It was fascinating. Also just wanted to take a quick moment to note that there's some more changes coming to this platform. I've started a new YouTube strategy. So there are clips of this podcast and some full episodes on my YouTube page.
00:14:03
Speaker
It's called Two Bye Guys, Buy One Bye Guy. And I've also been doing a series of five minute-ish explainer videos sharing some of the insights that I've learned along the way on this podcast journey. These are Quick bites focused on a topic, I'm having fun doing them, so check those out on YouTube if you want. There's a bunch already there and I'm trying to post them weekly. i also started a group coaching cohort a few weeks ago that has been so amazing, i love it so far. I think the guys in the group are getting a lot out of it and building a lot of community.
00:14:33
Speaker
This group will be finishing in early December and I will absolutely be starting more groups. I think my jam is groups for queer men, but I'd also like to do other types of groups I'd love to do a group for women who are married to queer men, and I also am interested in psychedelic integration groups for those of you exploring that.
00:14:52
Speaker
I'm also collecting more stories for future projects. a couple years ago, I had a Google form where I collected stories for my book, And now I'm collecting even more stories and there's a new form. So even if you filled that one out, if you want to share your story with me, I would love it.
00:15:05
Speaker
I've got a new form. I'm going to put it in the show notes in this episode. So click that if you're interested in sharing your story with me in some form. I don't know exactly what form. I want to collect the stories and see what we have and then decide what to do with them. And you can remain anonymous if you'd like. So check the link in the show notes for those forms.
00:15:25
Speaker
And if you want to stay on top of all of my work moving forward, The best thing to do is to get on my newsletter. I've actually been sending pretty regular newsletter emails, not too much, about every other week, sometimes once a week at the most. And you can sign up for my newsletter at robertbrookscohen.com slash newsletter. And I will also put that link in the show notes. And as always, I'm also available for individual coaching.
00:15:50
Speaker
That work has been really rewarding and fulfilling for me. I'm working on a new website, which will hopefully be transformed in the next week or two, and I'm going to add some more testimonials on there.
00:16:00
Speaker
But in the meantime, I just received this note from a former client who I reconnected with that I just wanted to share. He wrote to me recently, awesome to hear your coaching is going so well. I know you're good at it. Thanks again, by the way. You really helped me move forward.
00:16:14
Speaker
My wife and i are doing great. We got through the minefield and realized we had been doing our relationship all wrong. We opened up our relationship and renewed our vows at RenFest this year. I think we are both the happiest we've ever been. It just warms my heart because when this client came in to me, that is not the place he was at. He was pretty worried and struggling with what to do with this revelation and sharing it with his wife and desiring to open up the marriage but not being sure if that would work. Not all my clients are wanting to open up their marriage, but it is a common thing. And I cannot promise that working with me will lead to opening up your marriage. That's between you and the person you're married to, and everyone is different. But what I can promise is that I will ask you open-ended, empowering questions that create awareness about the best path for you and in your partnership. And there is no right answer. It's just about moving forward with integrity and authenticity and connection. And I can say that my clients do feel more connected after we've worked together one way or another. Often they come to me feeling pretty disconnected from themselves or from their partners or from their spirituality. And that's what I can help you do is reconnect. And if you're going through a difficult period in your life with your identity or in your marriage or a relationship, the space can be really powerful and valuable. So thank you for hearing me out. I love doing this podcast, but it's the coaching that pays the bills. so I appreciate you bearing with this interruption. And now back to this fun episode about buy for buy and play parties with Wade Shepard.
00:17:55
Speaker
So let's back up a little. I probably have more questions about the party, but I want to hear about your story. Like, tell me about when and how you, you know, came to your understanding of your sexuality.
00:18:07
Speaker
and And then we'll we'll take it through to, you mentioned you're married, so I want to hear about that. But yeah start wherever you want to start. um I wish I had more of a journey, right? Yeah. I wish there was more of a process and like more of a struggle of being like, oh yeah, you know, I feel I may be queer. Oh yeah, I know I am queer. Oh, I'm going to act on this at some point. But it was like pretty immediate.
00:18:31
Speaker
I mean, the first person I ever hooked up with was, you know, male. And it was, you know, i was like, I was like 15 and it wasn't just like ah you know, like, like jerk off together while watching porn kind of thing that, you know, most teenagers will do at some point. I was like, you know, we really, you know, hooked up with each other. Right.
00:18:48
Speaker
And, don't know. i just never thought it was something strange or odd or, you know, but just did it. and it just, you know, just, just what it was. And it always just seemed normal. And it was really, don't know. It's like, just, just not really a story, you know, about any conflict. You can't have a story.
00:19:07
Speaker
but I love, i love that you wish there was more conflict and struggle. no Probably many people who would want to switch places with you on that. Yeah, I know.
00:19:18
Speaker
ah That's funny. I mean, i mean, yeah, it makes sense. And it's funny. Wait, and how old were you when that happened? but for i I was like 15. ah fifteen Okay. why do you think it was like Why do you think it was easier for you than for other people?
00:19:35
Speaker
Well, I kind of always did my own time. Right. Now I'm in high school. don't know. I mean, I had a very positive high school experience, which is kind of strange for, you know, a bi dude growing up in the middle of farm country. grew up in between Buffalo and Rochester, right?
00:19:50
Speaker
At a very time that was, you know, way more or less friendly towards queer people than it is now. ah But um I don't know. I mean, I just... I don't know. I was into punk rock. I played in bands, but I was also like really good at sports too. So I got, you know, respect and, you know, the high school community from that as well. And I was just, I don't have a lot of friends and I was just able to just basically just, just be myself.
00:20:14
Speaker
Right. Which is cool. You know, really fortunate, right? Like, got out of school, yeah everybody had that experience. I was like, oh no,
Masculine Presentation and Bisexuality
00:20:21
Speaker
hate school. was picked on and beat up and shit. was like, oh man, don't know. I was kind of cool. for yeah not Not really a story there either. Good for you. Amazing.
00:20:34
Speaker
So, okay. But so if your first hookup was a guy, then like, what did you think after that? Because, you know, many people would ah not to put words in, but many people view sexuality as binary. And like, I don't know, did you, did you also know you were attracted to women at the time or what did you think at that moment? Yeah. yeah i was I was attracted to to women.
00:20:53
Speaker
um So you were just like, happened to hook up with a guy, but you knew you were fluid or. I always knew I was, I was attracted to both. and Cool. I think maybe one of my influences was this old, like kind of bad movie called the doom generation. I don't know if you've ever seen it.
00:21:10
Speaker
no never heard of it. One of my characters was a bi guy. So maybe, maybe that gave me, gave me some confidence. I don't know. Interesting. When was that? was that and it was le Was that a movie?
00:21:22
Speaker
it's It's a movie. Um, I don't know if went back and watched it probably think it was pretty bad now but you know like like watch it with my friends and it was like kind epic right uh-huh interesting but there's a tell me about the bi character in it and like what you connected with oh the bi character I don't he's kind of this badass drifter kind guy right who uh I don't know just just ended up with this couple traveling around the U.S. um kind of accidentally committing crimes and shit like that I don't know. It was just kind of a kind of a story of like everything that could go wrong going wrong.
00:21:55
Speaker
There was some pretty hot sex scenes and some pretty hot, you know, sort of somewhat bi sex scenes. It was the first time in like like a movie form I got to see what see ah see a DP, right?
00:22:06
Speaker
Of course, they didn't show up, but you ah you know what was going on. I was like, oh, wow. That's pretty cool. I want to do that. ah Interesting. And how old were you when you saw this movie, do you think? Oh, man, we probably started... with Well, me and my friends, we had this old like VHS tape.
00:22:22
Speaker
um and and For the first part of it, it movie called Doom Generation. The second part of it was a movie called like like Over the Edge, which is movie about these like high school kids in like the early 80s or 70s who like locked all their parents and teachers in the school and burned it down.
00:22:36
Speaker
So we thought that was pretty cool. We just watched these two movies just like over and over again. were probably 13. like when we first watched it. Wow. Cool. so ah I just kind of identified with that badass drifter character and who was like still cool and like masculine, but he was also queer too.
00:22:53
Speaker
was like, it says oh, that's awesome. Actually, I have more questions about your story, but since you just said that, like how, how do you feel like your masculinity and your, this, you know, fluidity are related or, or not? How do you think about like what your brand of masculinity is?
00:23:12
Speaker
Um, man. Um, I don't know. I mean, I said pretty.
00:23:20
Speaker
Um, I said pretty standard, this kind of alpha male character, right? I god yeah i but play sports. I still play hockey, right? So I always did that like, like all my life. and Um, I don't know, like,
00:23:35
Speaker
I don't think i very I have much of a feminine side. i I'll just put it like that. don't have anything wrong with it. don't know i have any stigma against it. you know I'm not afraid of it, but I just yeah i just never got one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah you know the I mean, that's actually kind of why I asked is because like you do present very masculine. like So far, hearing your story, like what you just said makes sense, and which is just interesting because I've i've met bi guys along the spectrum, and many of them do...
00:24:04
Speaker
have like hints of femininity or things growing up that they can point back to. and like, it's cool to hear the story of like, I knew I was sexually fluid the whole time and it was normal and accepted and I didn't struggle with it.
00:24:20
Speaker
And you're, you're like close to the very masculine end of that spectrum, yeah which but it feels like it's more unusual to be like comfortable with those two things. I don't know. what I agree. Especially since I grew up in a real traditional family, my dad was just a super alpha character, right?
00:24:37
Speaker
The foreman, you know, factory job. And, uh, I don't know. He was a bodybuilder. Right.
Disclosure of Bisexuality to Family and Friends
00:24:44
Speaker
Oh, interesting. Cool. Yeah. So it was like, uh, I don't know. I mean, it probably wasn't an ideal place for, for a queer dude to start out, but you some, somehow it worked out.
00:24:56
Speaker
How did you have to come out to your family and like, how did it, did you come out? what was you out We just never talked about it. i mean I'm sure they had suspicions with that first guy that I was with, but it just, it just never came out. It was just never something.
00:25:12
Speaker
i mean, if I was in like, um, like a primary relationship with a guy, and I wanted to like introduce them to my family or something like that, then, you know, of course have to be like, yo, this is, this is Joe, you know, like do that whole thing. But I've never had that.
00:25:30
Speaker
More or less, I never had that. There was one guy I traveled with for two years, and but um you know, but personally, but never really identified him I mean, we never actually hooked up, right? it was like this weird love affair that,
00:25:44
Speaker
was completely sexist or romance-less, but it was still, it was still something interesting. I still kind of think about that sometimes. But yeah, oh yeah I promise about him. I mean, I think they just lost their suspicions of it, like, as I got older, right?
00:25:59
Speaker
So even if I did start bringing a guy around, they probably would have no idea. oh but like they by by they would have no idea. Do you mean like they assume you're straight and they don't think about what's happening with other guys or they assume you're fluid and they don't care? Oh, no. I mean, they they assume I'm straight. Straight.
00:26:18
Speaker
ah yeah Yeah. Yeah. Like all the way. There's no power yeah question in their minds about it. I just never found a reason to like tell them otherwise. like you know, we usually don't talk about to our parents about the people we bang, right? Especially like when you're married. Well, speak for yourself. of other people oh you know oh That's cool.
00:26:40
Speaker
I mean, that's cool I don't go into detail necessarily. but Okay. Oh, that's cool. You have that kind a relationship with your parents. I don't know. Is it? I don't know.
00:26:52
Speaker
like I'm on a price center like right to the priest. Interesting. What about with like your friends? do you Do you like identify a certain way or did you come out to friends or did you just kind of like if it if you talk about a partner, you talk about it, but you don't like identify a certain way?
00:27:09
Speaker
I mean, the ones who who aren't queer that kind of grew up with them, I'm still friends with. um It's just not something that that really ever really came up. I believe they're aware of that that one guy in high school.
00:27:20
Speaker
but um Yeah, it's just... um I mean, there's some people we talk about some things too, and there's other people we talk about other things too. You know, like like when I call my dad, we talk about sports, right?
00:27:31
Speaker
When I you know talk to my wife, we talk about you know orgies and gangbanks and stuff like that. So, I don't know. It's very different. Kind of compartmentalized things. Yeah, yeah. that You know, it makes sense. like Like, I'm like out everywhere, and that's working for me. And I just like, you know, the...
00:27:52
Speaker
ah especially at the beginning, I just like needed to talk about it. But now I'm at a point where like, if it's not coming up, I'm not like forcing it into a conversation. And I've worked with clients and like people in groups that I've been in who have said like, you know, they, they felt pressure to tell everyone, you know, especially at the beginning, like,
00:28:13
Speaker
they felt pressure to send a mass email or Facebook post or like make a bunch of phone calls, go down a list. And actually, you know, in working with some of those people, like we've realized or they've realized, oh, I don't have to tell everyone.
00:28:27
Speaker
Like I can tell the people I want to tell and I don't have to make a special call to the people that, I don't need to tell like, and actually that's given them peace and comfort and, and an easier path to tell the people they want to tell when they realize that like the PR there's no pressure to tell everyone.
Open Relationship Dynamics
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you view something as being normal, you know, then, There's lot of times not, I mean, you you don't you don't go around talking about white rice, you know, white rice is normal, right? that impetus So the people that I don't generally talk about sex with, I just, we just talk about other things.
00:29:03
Speaker
But the people do talk about sex with, yeah, we talk about that. Yeah. yeah It's hard to talk about sex and sexuality without bringing up your bi cake ring toss penis play party. Exactly.
00:29:19
Speaker
okay so Okay, so that was the childhood. But then, like tom I'm curious about like your relationships from then through, you know you said you're married. like What were your relationships like up to meeting your current partner?
00:29:32
Speaker
Okay, I tend to have like really long relationships like um with someone I'm with up for a long time. um up Before i I met my wife, I had um like three two-year relationships with women.
00:29:43
Speaker
And then I traveled with this one guy. We were together like every day for like two years and it wasn't romantic, but it was, don't know. There seemed to be something there. And then I met my wife, met her in Costa Rica and then we met up randomly in Nicaragua.
00:29:56
Speaker
And then eventually we met up again at Brooklyn. um And then that was it. We were together and she's, you know, she's female. How long ago did you meet your wife?
00:30:06
Speaker
It 17 years ago. Whoa. Wow. Oh, you've been together a while. yeah Yeah. We were married 16 years. Wow. And have, and so I assume you have an open relationship now. How do you describe your relationship style?
00:30:23
Speaker
Oh, I guess technically it's E&M. It's ethically non-monogamous, so if we bang other people. But it's kind of like a hobby, right? Uh-huh. It's like, yeah, we just this is something that's really fun for us to do together.
00:30:35
Speaker
and We actually started that because when I first brought it up, I was like, yo, I really want to watch some other guys bang you, right? I think that'd be really hot, had this fantasy. And then we just we just went from there. um Yeah, it's just kind of a hobby for us. you know It's like what we do on the weekends, what we do to connect.
00:30:50
Speaker
I mean, going to a sex party with with like a date or your partner, it's like the most intense, the most effective way, I think, to bond with somebody, right? Because you have to be really connected with them you like emotionally, like like psychologically, and aware of like what they're feeling and what they're thinking.
00:31:05
Speaker
You have to know a little bit about them and like what they like and what they don't like. and kind like like You have to watch out for each other. And then in the process of things, you really have to communicate, right? It's like you're making decisions together.
00:31:16
Speaker
Like, you know, do you like this person? do you not like this person? Sometimes there's not a lot of time to like, you know, go off and have a huddle. Right. It's like, oh, right. You got to connect quick. Yeah. yeah so you word Even in the scenes, like, oh, is she not going to like it if i I don't pay enough attention to her or something like that or, you know, and and vice versa.
00:31:34
Speaker
So it's like at the end of the night, it's like, oh yeah, you were together. you had sex with each other. had sex with like a bunch of other people and it was a lot of fun and you had to work through
Jealousy and Arousal in Relationships
00:31:43
Speaker
some things. Even when it's super positive, you're still like, like working through some things together.
00:31:47
Speaker
So when you go home, it's like, oh wow, we just had a really close, exciting, like very fun bond and experience that kind of gets us through to the next week a lot of times. so but Cool. Totally. That's that's a current relationship. um I have, um,
00:32:02
Speaker
um I think i have a bit of a poly tendencies sometimes. So that's that's kind of a conflict a little bit sometimes in a relationship. I like getting to know people. I like getting close with people. you know i like having bigger relationships. That's something where we're dealing with now.
00:32:21
Speaker
oh Oh, I want to come back to that in a second. But just ah like it makes so much sense what you said about like how having sex with other people, in ah especially in a group setting, can make you feel connected with your wife or your partner. Like it seems counterintuitive, but what you just described exactly how it happens, because even though you're you know you're connecting with other people outside of the primary partnership, it forces these conversations and this like checking in And you are connected, especially if it's in the same space and you're playing sort of in a group.
00:32:55
Speaker
You are very connected to each other, sometimes in a deeper way than when you're alone in your bedroom. And I think a lot of people don't know how and why that works. And you just explained it and laid it out. That was cool.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean... if you could talk to your partner about having a sex with other people, you can talk to them about anything, right? Right. Yeah. yeah So it's like, a yeah, I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just, no no matter how you slice it, even on like a routine night, having like orgies of people that you already know, it's still like an intense experience that you're sharing with somebody.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah. And plus it's sexy. I mean, I have kind of cuck tendencies as well. So I really like watching my wife being banged by like other people. That's very exciting for me. Oh, what, what do you like? I basically feel a lot closer to her when I see that. Cause I think she's really hot and I think the other dudes are really hot. So it's like, and plus you feel that emotive response.
00:33:49
Speaker
Like it's when you're a partner that you're connected with in your love and that you love like um having the sex with somebody else. I think, I think I've kind of always like kind of manifested jealousy with like extreme sexual arousal, which was really fucking weird for me at first. Like when I was like 18, 19 so, like,
00:34:05
Speaker
and nineteen or so like And I was 18. I had a girlfriend that cheated on me. and i was like, why do I feel aroused? You know, what's what's going on? Interesting. So the jealousy actually kind of transmutes into arousal for you sometimes.
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's kind of how i how I come to understand it. like and Instead of feeling like angry or insecure, um i just feel like like extremely aroused. Because like if I watch if i'm like you know um if i watch is like somebody I don't really know having sex, I'm like, oh yeah, that's hot. That's a really hot person. But I don't feel that emotive response towards it. but um There's you know only been a couple people. I have a couple of people where like it's like you know I feel an emotional connection with this person.
00:34:46
Speaker
ah Watching them or thinking about them having sex with someone else really, really excites me, ah ah mostly because I have this connection with that person. Interesting. so i that's ah just I just as interpreted as like a ah weird fucked up way of computing jealousy, I guess, because that would be the reaction that I would think, the more standard reaction to feel.
00:35:10
Speaker
But that's so cool that you like kind of are dipping into the, your own shadow and like, you know, and, and actually transmuting it into something ah that's like exciting and benefiting you and her and benefiting your partner. Cause like ah you you, is it tied to the thing you mentioned where like, when you see other people having sex with your wife, it's like, Oh, like they're hot and she's hot. And you like,
00:35:37
Speaker
see that they like her and they're into her it for i don't know for me it's like you appreciate that person more and then when they are with you later you like feel more lucky and special and aroused because of what's happening yeah interesting yeah and a lot of times our our reconnection verbiage will be kind of centered around that well how much that guy or girl liked her and stuff like that Yeah. ah Interesting. That makes so much sense to me. i think, you know, it's it's hard for people to see that sometimes, especially if they're like in
Cultural Experiences and Open Relationships
00:36:14
Speaker
monogamy. It's like, how how could I enjoy that? but
00:36:19
Speaker
But it's... I don't know, for me, it does give me like gratitude and appreciation for, yeah for the partner um and letting them go and explore something fun. Like I have compersion for that as well.
00:36:31
Speaker
Do you experience compersion or is it, is it actually jealousy that just feels hot or like, how do you distinguish It's definitely compersion. I mean, I mean, I don't, I don't feel like an ounce of like the jealousy response in these situations. It's just like, it's just,
00:36:45
Speaker
over flooded with like, you know, sexual arousal. Right. So it's just, yeah you know, just like to maybe, maybe, this maybe some, maybe some wires are crossed or something. Right. But, um, cool. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely a copersion response.
00:36:57
Speaker
mean, especially like, like if she gets a guy that can do like things that I can't do or something like that, or I don't do it. Yeah, cool. And what when did you first open things up? Like, were you monogamous with your wife at the beginning or was it pretty early?
00:37:11
Speaker
um i guess technically we were monogamous, but um I spent 20 years traveling abroad. Like I was a travel writer, then i was journalist, then a filmmaker. So we were always on the road, right? were always on the road. And like for the first era of of our our marriage, we were mostly in in Asia, like china China, mostly in the countries around China. I was based in China.
00:37:33
Speaker
Cool. And they don't really have much of a scene for this there. Right. It's just not there. So we were never really in a place that, you know, had like other people who were into it.
00:37:45
Speaker
And um we didn't know about um we didn't really know that this world existed really ah until like we moved to Prague. And it probably was like a sex club on every corner, right? It's like, everybody's into it. i mean, it was put best in it. It's like, oh, one um when communism fell, they just thought democracy meant there's no rules, right?
00:38:04
Speaker
It's like communism got rid of the religion and then, you know, democracy got rid of communism. So but's so it's a very, very free society.
Organizing and Dynamics of Gang Bang Parties
00:38:12
Speaker
And so we started going to sex clubs there and stuff like that. It's oh, wow, at this world. These people aren't weird. They're not like, you know, 60-year-old like, like swingers, like banging on like shag rugs. Right. You know, it's like, oh, they're just normal people like us.
00:38:26
Speaker
I'm going to to check out Prague. Yeah.
00:38:37
Speaker
So you also mentioned like you have, you're into gang bangs and you even host these other parties that are not the buy for buy, but are like gang bang parties. Okay. Two questions. Like what's, why do you like that? Like what's your, what is hot about that for you? And then I'm curious to hear about those parties.
00:38:56
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. i do I do all kinds of parties, but like, like one, one kind of party you really like doing is like the gang bang parties. Right. Um, And it's totally different than like the other parties. It's usually like, you know,
00:39:08
Speaker
I mean, it could be like any sex or gender to like be the center person of a gangbang. Right. But we usually do that with with females who have this fantasy or they're really into it. Right. So their approach, like like me or another organizer, get our friends together and we um we do it.
00:39:26
Speaker
Now, part of what's enjoyable about it is like, yeah, you you're having sex with someone. There's lots of people having sex with someone at the same time. it's hot. It's fun. It feels good. um But it's really like the connection between everybody, like, like the dudes like, like in the gang, you're like just hanging out with your with your fucking bros, you know, like, you know, just just having like, like a good time together. There's like a lot of laughing, a lot joking. It's like, you know, the most unserious form of sex is probably is right.
00:39:52
Speaker
o it's just it's just just a lot of fun you know i equate it to like you know it's kind of like you know watching a football game with your buddies or something like that right you're having sex with someone and you're kind of like um and and and this kind of i mean there's different kinds of gangbanks but in this kind it's like you're um all kind of like performing like a service for like the per the center person like they express what they want and how they want it and you basically just serve them i kind of think of it as kind of like don't know maybe like a medieval princess like bringing in the soldiers right and like telling them what to do so y'all like you know kind of serve her get her like water and food are you okay you okay wow help each other loop each other up and stuff like that you know so so i love it i don't know it's just a it's just a fun experience right and
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, I love it. That sounds hot. I'm going to have to come to that party too. Yeah, okay. We should have one of those in the spring. Well, we might well, but we do really big one in the spring at Hacienda.
00:40:49
Speaker
Cool. hi ah like So in that situation, you know i've i've like I've been at BFF, that happened, right? And there and like it's it's just like kind of natural thing that got organized and everyone was comfortable with it because everyone's bi.
00:41:05
Speaker
Are there straight men that come to those? And like because they're focused on the woman, like it's it's a straight thing? to i don't know. Or is everyone are the guys also bi usually? How does that work?
00:41:18
Speaker
ah Perhaps, unfortunately, how most gangbangs are um very straight, at least how sexuality is expressed. ah I don't know. I mean, and I don't think this is intentional, but and and this is kind of like um it's kind of like pro football. Right.
00:41:37
Speaker
It's like it's like the queerest game ever. Right. We're probably also the most homophobic. Right. Uh huh. Uh huh. So you got these guys wear these tight little shorts. You see the depression of the cocks like the through the pants and they're like grabbing each other and forcing each other down on the ground. Right. It's it's a very queer game.
00:41:53
Speaker
Right. But it's also a very homophobic game. um Yeah. It's kind of like that. Right. It's like, yeah, you're having sex with the same woman at the same time. Sometimes your penis is going into orifices at the same time as like other penises.
00:42:06
Speaker
You're touching each other. You're coming on each other and stuff like that. But it's... um ah For the most part, I don't want to say it's prohibited. or and Some of them are. These aren't the ones i have any moment, but some say no guy and play, right? These aren't the ones that I do.
00:42:22
Speaker
ah But it's still generally, I mean, the culture of it is is very hetero, like extremely hetero. I've heard about stuff like that. Like I have a friend who kind of enjoys that he's a bi guy, but he will go play in these kind of gangbang situations. And he has told me it's like, it's exactly like that where it's like, even when there are other bi guys there, the vibe is straight. The vibe is we're focused on the woman. We're not playing with each other or touching each other explicitly.
00:42:53
Speaker
but there's that sense that you talked about of like the the growth brought bonding thing that like there is some kind of male intimacy that's connecting over you know the gangbang of this woman which is like an interesting dynamic it's hard for yeah yeah exactly it's actually it's like my penis is stroking your penis inside of a vagina at the same time we're gonna come on each other it's like That's pretty queer, man. Pretty gay, yeah. yeah Right. But it's like, oh, but there's a woman here and we're fucking the woman. So that's what this is. We're straight. yeah
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah. i mean I mean, there's some queer other bi guys that go to the gangbangs with. like We won't sexually interact with the gangbang, but at different parties, well we'll hook up with each other. and it's like Right, right.
00:43:41
Speaker
it's just i mean And I'm not judging it either. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not judging it. like I think that... the fact that spaces like that and, and situations like that exist is great.
00:43:52
Speaker
It's like great for both for bi guys and straight guys to explore this kind of dynamic for what it
Venue and Social Dynamics at 'Bye for Bye' Parties
00:43:59
Speaker
is. I'm not saying like the straight guys are really bi or should be bi.
00:44:03
Speaker
It is just interesting how that situation pushes the bounds of what, people are, you know, open to like, they're not open to direct contact, but they're open to this sort of indirect sexy atmosphere where there's more guys than what, you know, there's 10 guys and one woman. It's pretty male environment.
00:44:22
Speaker
Yeah. I would say there's, there's definitely, um, by tendencies, at least for most guys that who go to these gangbanks, whether they ever express it or not.
00:44:34
Speaker
Mm-hmm. yeah it's it's as well you know ah cool exactly the more we can encourage like even this this exploration and fluidity among any identity i i say the better yeah right on right on
00:44:57
Speaker
I want to go back to the buy for buy party. have more questions. You said it's been selling out. Like how big, how big are these parties? And, and, and I'm curious about the space at Hacienda and like what it's actually like. Hacienda is ah two floors. It's the first floor of a Brooklyn, bo ah of a Brooklyn brownstone and also the basement.
00:45:16
Speaker
So there's like, um, There's three playrooms on the first floor and the entire basement's so a playroom. There's just a mattress is just lined up like all the way across the place. so um It's a pretty nice venue. I mean, mean it's it's probably like like one of the nicest venues for a sex club in New York City, if not the nicest.
00:45:33
Speaker
Cool. Just beautiful. I mean, and there's a lot of like social spaces too, because it just and so it's not just about the banging, right? It's more of a social event. So there's like a big kitchen area. There's a dance floor. There's like a backyard that has like a long fire pit.
00:45:46
Speaker
And like, like couches and there's a, there's a bar in the back with a hot tub. So like most people spend most of the night, like talking and get to know people. And then, you know, part of the night banging, right. um I tend to spend more of the banging than talking, but I still enjoy the talking. Yeah.
00:46:01
Speaker
but of its like I found that when i when I go into these spaces without the expectation or intention to have sex, and I just go to like chat and meet people and have fun, A, I have a better time, and B, I end up having more sex.
00:46:16
Speaker
Exactly. When I'm trying to have sex, it often is like stuff goes awry. I know, because it's like people are attracted to people that they like. you know? Yeah, it'll happen. It'll happen if you just are yourself. And when you're like too focused on the goal, you're not really just being yourself. Okay.
00:46:35
Speaker
Just be normal is what I tell people. Just be normal. That's all you got to do. Right? Just be normal. That's good life advice. I know. Just be normal. Don't try to be attractive. Just just be more big normal and curious and ask people questions.
00:46:51
Speaker
But what's really interesting about these spaces is like, it's like Probably the only space that I know of that you can get like, you know, 200 people together and nobody has their phones.
00:47:04
Speaker
And the only fucking thing there is to do is to talk to the people around you. Yeah. you People are there to meet other people. Like you go to a bar, people, you know, people are usually oftentimes aren't there to meet their other people other people. They're there to be hang out with their friends. Right.
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah. And this is like 95% of people there are into or at least open to meeting other people and they don't have their phone. And it's only about like what's going on around them. And there's not a damn thing to do, but to talk with other people and yeah to have sex with other people. Yeah. Right.
00:47:33
Speaker
Amazing. It is kind of rare for that kind of a space to exist these days in our modern culture. So is that like, are there 200 people at a buy for buy party? Is that like, yeah, um we sell out around 180 tickets we'll sell.
00:47:48
Speaker
And then there's like 25 volunteers. And then there's like some, you know, some, some other people too who are there. So you have like, you know, 200, 220 altogether around there. Wow. And what's the gender breakdown on average?
00:48:01
Speaker
Is it pretty mixed? its It's actually like at a buy for buy, it's probably about 45% women, 55% men. At normal hacienda party, it's pretty, it's 50-50. There may be more women than men, which is interesting for a sex club, especially one that charges females the same price as they charge males and there's no couples tickets.
00:48:25
Speaker
Right, right. And Hacienda is pretty reasonably priced compared to other places I've been. Exactly, exactly. I mean, there's those clubs like, oh, women get in free, right?
00:48:35
Speaker
And there's not a woman in the whole place, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. and what And when is the next buy for buy, just so people know? Next buy for probably be um probably in the middle of January, I think. i It's getting a little late. oh maybe Maybe we'll do a middle of December, middle of January.
00:48:54
Speaker
But yeah either before like the Christmas, like holidays or like right after it. Cool. Lovely. and And where can people find more information if they're interested? um They can go to wearehacienda.com or go to Hacienda's Instagram page or join Hacienda. you got be member to join the Hacienda Discord.
00:49:12
Speaker
But yeah, yeah just just go to wearehacienda.com. Cool. Yes, you do have to be a member, but it is very doable to become a member. I am a member, even though I have not yet been in person because I don't live there and it's never worked out. But they also have like virtual stuff and online classes sometimes. So oh yeah yeah this seems like a cool place to be a member.
00:49:33
Speaker
And they also run a bar down the street called The House. And they have, yeah anybody can go in there. It's kind of like speakeasy, a sexy speakeasy style bar. And they have like a lot of like sex workshops, like spanking workshops and DP and workshops and stuff like that. They can go and like have drinks, meet the people of that community.
00:49:51
Speaker
Cool. And i they have some fun, like, sexy dance parties, too, that are not play parties, but that are, like, exactly sexy dance parties. Yeah.
Intersections of Queer Identity and Career
00:49:59
Speaker
um Cool.
00:50:01
Speaker
but I'm also curious, one last question. Like, you you're a filmmaker, you're travel you were a travel writer, like, Tell me ah just briefly about your work and your other work and your career and like, how has your queerness been like influenced your work or not? Like how connected is your other work to this stuff?
00:50:22
Speaker
Ooh, it's, it's a world, it's it's a world apart. I was in China. I was a business correspondent for Forbes, if if you can imagine that. So, um yeah, I mean, I started out, I mean, i left home when I was 18. I grew up in like the middle of nowhere. And when you grow up the middle of nowhere, the only thing you want to do is leave.
00:50:40
Speaker
So I started traveling at 18 and i continued traveling until I was 38. First, I was like going to school at various places. i went to like six different universities and, you know,
00:50:50
Speaker
save my money from financial aid and I'll travel on that money like like after the semester was over then And eventually went to the school called um the Friends World Program. That's what it's called then. It's like a Quaker program ah of Long Island University.
00:51:03
Speaker
It's now called Global College, but they had like centers all over the world. So I could like travel and, you know, study language and culture, do all of things I was doing otherwise and, you know, go to school too. And after that, became a travel writer.
00:51:17
Speaker
Did okay with that, surprisingly. I just kind of traveled around like everywhere, just just writing about basically anything I wanted. And then I did have a degree in journalism. So, um well, I got a book deal first. I just, just from the blog, right. Just, you know, cool. Relatively well-known China author, like, you know, read my blog and like invited me to do a book for him. So I did that book. That book did well.
00:51:38
Speaker
And then, um, And then I became a journalist and did that and then became a documentary filmmaker. And that led me to New York where I run a little film company and we shoot all kinds of stuff. um As far as how queerness like impacts and influence that, up to now it hasn't very much. It's like, you know, at work is kind of like very siloed, right?
00:51:58
Speaker
ah like Like I do three things in life, right? I play hockey, you know, i i I make films and I go to sex parties, right? all three things are very siloed interesting but i would like to start like dick doing some like you know more films about more queer oriented or more um sex oriented things it be an easy segue i don't i really don't know why i haven't done it yet yeah cool i'm sure
Conclusion and Future Plans
00:52:23
Speaker
those things will integrate naturally when when they're meant to i don't know how hockey and sex parties integrate but i'm sure you'll figure out if it did can you Imagine a sex party like on ice.
00:52:38
Speaker
don't know about ice, but i do imagine them in a locker room sometimes. Like, hey, ah hey very well want to come in here for a minute? There you go Locker room party. and That would be fun.
00:52:50
Speaker
I love it. um Cool. Well, ah thank you for being here, Wade, and sharing about this party. i will i will certainly be there in the future.
00:53:02
Speaker
Let me know. I'll let you know what the next one is. Amazing. Any final thoughts or anything on your mind we didn't cover or get to? um No, no. i think I think we covered it.
00:53:16
Speaker
Cool. Well, thanks for sharing about ah your journey, your trajectory. It's cool that it wasn't as much of a struggle as it is for some people. That's lovely to hear.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yeah. And best of luck on the continued journey with your three areas of life as they come together or not. And yeah.
00:53:39
Speaker
Check out the show notes, everyone, for for some links to Hacienda and other things related to Wade. Thanks for being here, Wade. Thank you very much, Rob. Really really appreciate it.
00:53:54
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash robertbrookscohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit robertbrookscohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.
00:54:22
Speaker
you