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A Non-Binary Entity of Pure Queer Joy & Stupidness with Mark Cusack aka Marco Fabulasio
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This episode features the second half of my interview with Mark Cusack (he/they), founder of the support site "Not Defining" (a space for anyone struggling with their sexuality, gender, or identity), ICF Certified Integrative Coach, and LGBTQ+ mentor. In this section, we discussed asexuality and the ace spectrum, what’s so special about dating couples, how queerness intersects with neurodivergence, Mark's drag persona “Marco Fabulasio”, and we each said "bye bye" to something we'd like to do away with in queer culture. Thanks for listening!
Mark’s Website: https://www.notdefining.com/
NotDefining on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCct1pE5fNVUdIR1aw3wxPew
NotDefining on IG: https://www.instagram.com/notdefining/
Mark’s Drag Alter-Ego, Marco Fabulasio: https://www.instagram.com/marcofabulasio/
Rob’s Website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Exploration
00:00:12
Speaker
Maybe welcome back to my second episode with Mark from Not Defining. Possibly this might be the the split point. We'll see. Anyway, hi. Hi, Mark. Hello, bro. Good to be with you again. So, okay, I want to ask you about so much stuff. We talked about coaching, we talked about content creation. You mentioned that you're ace and on the asexuality spectrum. How did you discover that and tell us people who don't know a little about that spectrum and like where where you think you fall on that spectrum and what that means and stuff like that?
00:00:49
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for asking. um I came to my bisexuality quite late, um kind of in my 30s, and I came to my asexuality even later, kind of in my mid 30s. It's very, very recent, and it's something I'm still exploring in myself.
Understanding Asexuality and Bisexuality
00:01:08
Speaker
But i'm basically, for the longest time, being bisexual,
00:01:15
Speaker
i I kind of repressed a lot and I was always confused about what genders I actually kind of liked and who I was and what, so there was a lot of anxiety and a lot of, just a lot going on with my bisexuality. I never quite felt I could be like my my true self. ah And even when I became kind of more open with myself and had relationships and things,
00:01:45
Speaker
I was always, I think, conscious that I was kind of like trying to be something to someone. I was trying to do what you're supposed to do, right, when it comes to dating and relationships and sex and everything. And it wasn't until I actually really started to accept and become confident in my bisexuality that I started to realize,
00:02:13
Speaker
If given the authentic choice, by sex and sexual attraction and dating and things at all, really.
Identity and Labels: A Paradox?
00:02:31
Speaker
um And that was really surprising to me. um It was really, really surprising. But I learnt a lot about the asexual spectrum.
00:02:42
Speaker
um like the bi spectrum is kind of attraction to different genders and you may be on one side or the other the asexual spectrum is kind of the presence of attraction or not and so you might be one end of this spectrum which is like a sex repulsed asexual which is like even the idea the thought of any kind of sexual act would just be really abhorrent, you just couldn't imagine doing it at all. But then you also get people
00:03:16
Speaker
all through the spectrum. um You get people who are ace flux, who are kind of like fluid. You get people who are demisexual, who they can have sexual attraction, but they really need to have a close bond with the person first. um But the one that I identify most strongly with is known as gray sexual or gray ace. And again, we get into all these labels like We don't need to use the labels, but as we're talking in detail... You're so defining, Mark, you're so defining. I'm so... I can't believe how... Somebody on my YouTube channel... How much you're defining yourself. I was talking about being great ace, and someone on my YouTube channel commented and was like, it's ironic that for an account that causes that, no, it's fine, you're certainly defining very specifically. And I was like,
00:04:11
Speaker
ah That's a good act out. I like that act out right there. I don't know how they spoke, but this is how I imagined it in my mind. I don't respond to it, but it's just like, you know, the words and other words, I'm not going to like, you know.
00:04:27
Speaker
define as gray sexual to like, you know, the the person on the street. but um But it helped me to understand that what I experience is actually a thing and it's actually normal and it's actually okay.
Societal Norms and Queer Identity
00:04:41
Speaker
um Gray Aces basically, I have the full range of sexual feelings. um I am sexually attracted to people. I know what that feels like. I enjoy sex. i had The great joy of having lots of wonderful sex in my life. Like I get it. i All of it. It's fine. It's lovely. Sex is wonderful. Wonderful. I find people sexy. I find people of all genders sexy. But I don't experience it really that much. I don't really feel that it is something that
00:05:21
Speaker
is a huge part of my life. And I look at other people kind of at similar age to me. I look at most people that I see around me and sex and sexual attractions is this massive thing. It's this wonderful thing and it's like, you will seek it and it will be this huge part of your life. And I'm just like, hmm, hmm, hmm.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah. I think I've always been like that, but it but it's been the kind of... just the trying to be what I feel that I'm supposed to be um or the kind of the forbiddenness of like same gender attraction. You know, I wasn't out as queer for the longest time. And so I was like, oh, you know, it was this kind of forbidden thing that was very exciting. And then when I kind of
00:06:17
Speaker
was allowed to experience it freely. I was just like, okay, that was nice. So that's really what yeah interesting my ace spectrum identity means to me.
00:06:31
Speaker
That's interesting that the set like sex same gender sex was almost like built up so much because you were repressing it. But then when you actually explored it, you're like, OK, that's me and that's normal. But also, I'm not like super interested in it. That's kind of interesting that it was like almost had more weight maybe before you came out. And then once you're out as bi and comfortable with that, you realize, oh, like well, actually, the attractions and the sex are not that important. Like, there're they're there, but they're not. I think that that's something that people, I mean, and for me too, like, it's sort of a little counterintuitive, like, if bisexuality means
00:07:14
Speaker
the possibility of attractions to more than one gender and asexuality means well if you think it means no attraction then how do those combine like those seem to be mutually exclusive but the gray ace thing i think is something that many people i've talked to have identified with where it's like It's not zero. like you're not It's a spectrum, and maybe you're not like all the way in that bottom corner, but but it's just not the same as the way you know people other people seem to experience it. It's not as important. It's it's there, but it's not like ah guiding you fully the way it's guiding me fully. I'll follow my penis around most days and see where it takes me. I'm somewhere else on the spectrum.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yes. But that makes sense, yeah. ah Maybe I'm a Kinsey one of the ah of the Ace world. I do think, actually, we need a scale, an Ace scale, right, actually, with some kind of number. Because like people think everything's a zero when you talk about Ace, but it's a spectrum. You should if you should invent a scale. The QSAC scale, maybe. um There probably is one. But yeah, people think that bisexuals are like 50-50 and they get out of bed every morning and just like go and have sex with everyone. um yeah Or asexual people are like complete zero and don't even know. And it's just like,
00:08:49
Speaker
No, we're all a mishmash, you know, in between. So I like to say that I could be attracted to anybody because I'm bi, but I'm not really attracted kind of to anyone because I'm
Relationships Without Labels
00:09:04
Speaker
ace. So but that can be confusing. And I understand that.
00:09:08
Speaker
I love it. I love the counter intuitiveness. So, so given that where you are in the A spectrum, like you mentioned when we were talking before this, like that you're single and poly and you're exploring that, like, so given where you are in the spectrum, what, what kinds of relationships are you exploring these days, however much you want to get into it? Yeah, well, um in a way, I'm kind of actively enjoying not exploring ah relationships, which is really a nice thing, but it's something that people don't understand, you know, like that, i oh, you know, you have to be trying to meet someone and it's this this assumption. And that's something that I've kind of had in my conditioning, my whole life's like, oh, you know, you will eventually meet someone and it'll be there. And I'm really deconstructing that and because I think part of accepting myself as bi and as ace and non-binary or just not defining is that authenticity we spoke about before. ah I'm challenging myself to ask the question if there were no limitations, if there were no expectations and rules in society. If I stopped
00:10:29
Speaker
listening to what everybody tells me I should be or what the convention is, what would I actually, actually, actually want in my life? And it's such a wonderful, freeing question to start each day with. um What does my body want? What does my brain want? Like, what feels good to me? And so I just go with that. And actually the answer for me at the moment is
00:11:02
Speaker
to not have a significant other, to spend time with my family, who I adore and who are my rocks. I love spending time with my family. I'm an uncle, I'm a godparent, and I love, I just love, you know, that's so important. And then I have amazing friends. I have very intimate friendships, you know. I was like queer, platonic,
00:11:30
Speaker
um loving, caring friendships. I love, love, love, love, love that. um And then I guess it's just a case of, I think, just seeing what every relationship comes, not saying like, this is a friendship, or this is a romantic relationship, or this is going to be intimate, or physically intimate, or sexual, or sensual.
00:11:54
Speaker
just seeing, just being really open and seeing what what comes. I really fancy, that's a British term some people don't, so yeah but I really love um couples. I find that I fancy couples all the time, like and it drives me crazy. And in a way, it it suits my bisexuality because you know maybe you will have like two different people of two different genders I find that overwhelmingly like wonderful but also it it suits my asexuality as well because they already have each other you know they've got their thing I don't I don't want to kind of
00:12:45
Speaker
be that to to to a person, but I would love to have connections which are fun and intimate and, you know, all the rest of it. So couples, couples are cool, couples are cool. um Yeah, I like that. I love that for you.
00:13:06
Speaker
It's actually funny you mentioned that because I was scrolling through your YouTube. I mean, I've watched a lot of it in the past, but I was scrolling through it last night just to kind of see what was interesting to talk about today. And the one video that I clicked on and watched that was like the first thing that caught my eye was like why I like dating couples or something like that. It it was about it was about what you just talked about.
00:13:30
Speaker
ah That's so funny. um and yeah yeah it have you like Has that been working out? Have you found some of that? So I have not had what you would call like a relationship with a couple mainly because I'm like just super anxious and like shy and like polite and in my daily life and you know I talk it up on YouTube and on the social media everything but in like real life it's so funny like people
00:14:01
Speaker
People connect with me online and things and as a coach and everything and i'm I'm in my bubble of like what I love and what you know, I feel really just able. Me in the outside world, like people who know me in real life, they're like, oh my God.
00:14:17
Speaker
You are so horrendous. I have like know one person who I WhatsApp and I'm just completely chaotic. I don't get back to people. I ah can hardly... like ah and i ah being Being autistic as well and neurodivergent as well kind of is part of the reason. but So I haven't managed to actually have something, but I have had a few, let's say, um interesting experiences, um some some fun experiences with with couples of of different different kinds of genders. i And it's honestly just...
00:15:00
Speaker
amazing it's absolutely amazing about kind of like two two guys who've been a couple and that's i think that's really nice um the but but if it's like a kind of different gender couple if it's like a male female present a couple i i never thought of it i never thought of it until like maybe a year or so ago. And I was like, oh my gosh, can you imagine if like a guy and a girl were both like flirting with you? is mindflowing It is It is by panic on a huge level. And I just think it's so amazing because I can be both things and I can have that, I was like gender fluidity,
00:15:54
Speaker
all at the same time, it's completely overwhelming. So that, I would say, is my favorite. I do fall unrequitedly in love with lesbians. With a lot. um That happens. They don't tend to want to be in a throuple with me, but if there are any, you know, out there, you know, call me. I love you.
00:16:24
Speaker
there. Put it out there and you're met you're manifesting with the couples, even if it's only a new thing for you. You're putting it out there and I love that you're manifesting it. yeah I agree. like I've been with some couples and I really like seeing their connection with each other. like That's kind of hot to watch and I like yeah and i also like that it's that I'm not part of it, that I don't have, like, the pressure in that moment to be in a serious couple relationship and, you know, please them. ah Like, there's pressure that comes with that. But I like witnessing it. And then I like being the new thing that they're both reacting to. Like, it's kind of a fun dynamic, right? Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just. Yeah.
00:17:16
Speaker
There's nothing quite like it. I would recommend if you're anywhere on the bi-spectrum, you know, if you're able to.
Neurodivergence and Self-Discovery
00:17:24
Speaker
but It's just fun. Call Mark. Have a threesome. Call Mark. Is that what you're saying? If you're on the bi-spectrum, call me.
00:17:33
Speaker
i assume even even going even going for a coffee like with a couple on like a kind of date type thing it's just like enough for me it's so it's so great
00:18:03
Speaker
So you mentioned this, this is actually, I'm so curious about this topic and I like, okay, i let me just add, so you mentioned you you were recently diagnosed with autism and theyre like there's a lot of crossover of neurodivergence with fluid sexuality, which like part of me kind of gets why that is. And also I don't fully, I can't fully explain why that is. And then you also kind of mentioned that you're,
00:18:29
Speaker
your gender fluidity might be related to that in some way too. So tell me about all that. Yeah, thank you for asking that. um I had always for the longest time um felt like I had a different brain to most other people from the youngest age. I always had different things like different materials and sensations would really bother me. I could have kind of like meltdowns and
00:19:07
Speaker
ah kind of things like that. um I also had kind of like um like twitches and compulsions and things, um and I also had this hyper, hyper-focused brain, so I would get very, very focused on one thing, and I would have like very heightened senses and heightened emotions.
00:19:28
Speaker
um And I would always look at things in a different way, but like many people um who don't have high support needs, so um it's not immediately obvious you know what it is. And so I just kind of felt like I was a bit right weird or different and stuff. And so I kind of went through life like that.
00:19:52
Speaker
um But when I started coming into my teens, I started developing like real mental health issues, like serious anxiety, serious depression, um serious obsessive um anxiety and and all sorts of things. And it just felt like life was so difficult and I was exhausted. I couldn't understand why I was so exhausted every single day, even if I'd slept well, even if you know I wasn't tiring myself out. it's just like Oh my gosh. And I went through that for so many years. And of course, being a queer person was was a big part of that. And I was attributed it to that um because that was very difficult. and But then I kind of sought therapy and I saw psychiatrists and and so on. and
00:20:43
Speaker
I was diagnosed with various things and different people said of different things, um which you know was all was all fine. um But it wasn't until actually, yeah it was about a two years ago, I started going to a psychiatrist, National Health Service psychiatrist for PTSD, because I'd been through an experience which was giving me like, really severe PTSD. And so we saw each other for, in
00:21:16
Speaker
Like every month for over a year and we had big long kind of assessments and talking and I'm right kind of towards the end She said, you know, have for you ever considered that you might be on the autism spectrum? I was like meet ah can what No way I had known so many autistic people because being bi in the bi community like I it's its It's quite common. There's there's a known cross over there. um And I was like, no, I'm not autistic. Like, okay, like all my friends are autistic. Like, okay, yes, I do this and yes, I do that.
00:21:56
Speaker
um But I had a stereotype in my mind, um but she basically explained that autism can take a lot of different forms. And we went, you know, she said that having assessed me, you know, for a very long time, she's saying, um and so I did, you know, tests and and everything and got that assessment.
00:22:21
Speaker
um And so I have a variety, which is kind of ah high masking autism, which some people call high functioning, um but ah should be called high masking because you're not actually functioning well. um And it means that I have a great ability to be able to kind of look normal, ah for want of a better word. um But that looking normal,
00:22:48
Speaker
has a huge impact on me and it makes me exhausted and there are so many things that um I force myself to do that actually I really, really just can't. And so having this diagnosis was really, really healing for me because it explained so much of what I had been through but not understood my whole life. And yeah um I think that, I mean, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I think that the ah crossover
00:23:22
Speaker
with the gender diverse by asexual spectrums with autism is that I think with with autism it's a spectrum and it's I think a lot of it is about kind of not necessarily understanding the the the given cues that society takes for granted. um And so yeah a lot of autistic people will have difficulty with understanding like subtle conversational cues. I don't have that. Or maybe I do. um You tell me. But um that's kind of a common thing.
00:24:04
Speaker
I think it's, I think from what I experienced is a similar thing with gender and sexuality. It's like, I have never understood what this whole convention of sexuality and gender is. Like I'm supposed to be a man. I'm supposed to be masculine. I have no clue what that's supposed to be. I don't understand it. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be exclusively attracted to women.
00:24:32
Speaker
I don't get why we're different. I don't get what what ah don't understand how it's meant to be. And so that's how I feel about it. I don't know whether that is what it is. but It's almost like ah does neurodivergence kind of expose things in the world that kind of feel natural and kind of make intuitive sense as a human being versus things that are culturally created or human constructed that
00:25:06
Speaker
we grow up with and they exist in our society but but it's like wait why I don't get that intuitively is that because that's how I don't have not been diagnosed neurodiverse and maybe that's why some of this stuff I didn't realize it till later but at a certain point I was kind of like oh this stuff i i and I know that I've been taught it, but it doesn't actually make sense in my body. It doesn't feel right for some reason. Is that kind of resonant? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something that a lot of us by people, for example, go through. um And that's how I experience um
00:25:53
Speaker
That's how I experience autism as well. It's just with a broader range of things. so right yeah Interesting. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's really fascinating. I definitely think there's like,
00:26:08
Speaker
overlap there. And also in this in the poly community too, like sexuality, gender, and like relationship structure, I go to this poly discussion group. I actually haven't been in a while. I have to go back. um But I remember one time a few months ago, the topic of the discussion that night was neurodivergence.
00:26:29
Speaker
And among this group of 30 poly you know thirty pollly people at the discussion that night, at least half had diagnosed neurodivergence of some sort. and then and And I don't, but as they're talking, I'm like, oh, I identify with that. Oh, I think that way. Oh, like yeah, that makes sense. And as we're talking, even the half that don't have diagnosed neurodivergence are like,
00:26:55
Speaker
Yeah, that describes me or this piece of it. Maybe it's not as extreme, but I get what you're talking about. So there's like just so much overlap I realized in that discussion of neurodivergence and polyamory, just like thinking about relationships differently, not conforming to the the way marriage exists in our culture and the way the love story, you know, we're taught. And it just made so much sense to me the way people talk about polyamory in a more natural way that I feel in my body.
Rethinking Relationship Structures
00:27:32
Speaker
And there's some some kind of crossover with neurodivergence there.
00:27:37
Speaker
yeah Yeah and but anyone who's been in kind of those queer spaces will know that you know we we have such a crossover and I think to a certain extent When you fit the norm in society, whether that's your sexuality, your gender, or your um your your neurotypical status, or whatever it is, or your ability, or whatever it might be, um youu
00:28:09
Speaker
you you have the opportunity to fit into the existing structures because they they work for you, so you fit into them, so so it's okay. um Those of us who have been kind of forced out of that, um either because we're queer or because um we are neurodivergent or because we're disabled or maybe even other traits that might kind of reject us from the norm. I think people like people like that ah are more likely to be able to see that broader spectrum of things so they may be more able to see different
00:28:54
Speaker
polyamorous kind of options or to be able to think about love and relationships and sex, whatever it might be um in a broader way, because we've kind of been forced
00:29:21
Speaker
All right, we got two things left on the agenda. ah One of them, if you're up for it, is a new segment on Two Bye Guys that we're calling Bye Bye Bye or or something like that. I don't know. I think that's what we're calling it now.
00:29:37
Speaker
ah This is where we each take a minute to rant on something we would like to say goodbye to in the culture. ah Something that maybe is annoying us or that we don't like. ah do you Do you have anything in mind that you would like to say goodbye to? I definitely have something in mind that I would like to say goodbye to, yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker
Cool, okay, then let's do it. I'm gonna set a timer and Mark Cusack, what are you saying bye-bye-bye to? Your time starts now, you have one minute. I wanna say bye-bye-bye to people who say that bisexuality is complicated. You know, there's people like, oh, I don't understand it and can you explain it? Like, you know, what it what is it all about? Like, no, it's too, but No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, bisexuality people is so simple. Okay, I'm going to explain really, really quickly bisexuality to you. Okay. Right. Here we go. You ready? 30 seconds. Right. Sometimes people love people the end. Like how is that difficult to understand?
00:30:52
Speaker
Hetero-normativity is so difficult to understand. There are so many rules, expectations, we're all supposed to know. There are so many conventions. like It's so complicated, so don't come at me telling me that my bisexuality is complicated because heterosexuality is so complicated. Leave us a like.
00:31:12
Speaker
And that's your minute. Wow. Amazing. I love it. That felt good. That felt good. Thanks, Lisa. That was wonderful. Bye, bye, bye. That's so true. That's so true. Heterosexuality is so complicated. Bisexuality is like, okay, there's no rules. Basically, do what do what you want. And as long as it's all consensual and respectful, which is a good rule always. But heterosexuality is the as the complicated bit.
00:31:38
Speaker
It's so complicated. I've been trying to understand it my whole life and I still can't. like I love it. I agree. And why did you say sometimes people love other people? Is that the definition that you used? I love it. This is the thing, like, because I think a lot of the time, you know, we say, oh, we can't teach children about, you know, different identities and stuff because it will confuse them. It will confuse them. And I was like, no, oh, my gosh.
00:32:03
Speaker
yeah Like how confusing do you make it for children when you like have different haircuts for like boys and girls and like you have different names and pronouns and like all these expectations like girls are allowed to do this boys are allowed to do this and you have to like this person or that person if you don't like it. That's so confusing and traumatizing for children. How confusing is it to say to a child sometimes a person might love another person.
00:32:35
Speaker
Right. Someday, someday when the world is all just fluid and open and and not defining at all, ah then then people will teach about what heterosexuality and homosexuality used to be, and kids will be confused. Like, what? You can only like a certain, and they'll be like, what is gender? There is only there used to be only two genders? What? Oh my God. did this And you could only choose one of them? What?
00:33:04
Speaker
And this is the thing, if you actually look at the animal kingdom and the natural world, like most animals are bi. So it's like the default in nature. And so like, it's this huge lie that we've created called heteronormativity and actually so simple, but it just we're not adding something new with teaching about bisexuality. We're just saying, take away the complicated thing that you're teaching people and just Right. Right. Just
Generational Shifts in Identity Perception
00:33:35
Speaker
be. Let it be open. Wow. Right. Right. Actually, yeah. Well, that leads to something I want to ask you. but it's But it's also related to my bye, bye, bye. So maybe we'll talk about it after after I do my little rant. Oh, wait. All right. And I have not really planned this. i I kind of know what the topic is, but we'll see where this goes. OK. I'll time you. You'll time. OK. All right. Here we go. Ready? Three, two, one. Yes.
00:34:02
Speaker
I would like to say bye-bye-bye to the label wars. I've been in the label wars for a while, especially bisexuality versus pansexuality, but all the other ones, I would like to say bye to the label wars, and I'm guilty of it too, ah but do whatever you want.
00:34:21
Speaker
Let's not police other people's labels. Let's not define all these things. The whole point of queerness and bisexuality and fluidity is that it's changeable and that it means different things to different people. How about we all just talk from our own experience? We share what labels we like and why, and we don't police other people's labels. And we keep an open mind about what that label means to them. And then we ask them questions about them and their lives. And we don't go with this one word and take it to mean and everything.
00:34:50
Speaker
Also, I'm guilty of of ah theory of policing this and telling people they all mean the same thing. I'm going to not do that anymore. I'm done policing. I'm done with the label wars. Bye, bye, bye. OK. Yes. OK, the hairdryer went off during that. I apologize. It distracted me. But um But I even wrote so i wrote stuff in my book about like pan and buy or similar and let's not fight with each other. and And I agree with all the things I wrote, but I also would like to say goodbye to even even being anti the label wars. This is the last time I'm going to be anti label wars. I'm done um done with this topic. I'm taking your lead from not defining. and
00:35:34
Speaker
we can just let's just like talk to people about who they are and not make assumptions based on a label they choose right? I have been so down for this rant like for the longest time it's just like any time that someone asks like starts that conversation like pan or buy or whatever I don't even care like if it's I'm just like, I just, I don't, I don't. That's the thing, I'm just bored by it now. Boring me, yeah, yeah. I do think there was some, we need to, okay, there's these new words, we gotta talk about it, people are fighting, we gotta like- The children are fighting, yeah. But I'm bored of it, I'm bored of it now. That's how I get that face you just made, where it's like, oh god, I'm rolling my eyes, like, I don't care anymore.
00:36:29
Speaker
We're over it Rob. We're over it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but that's, this is what I wanted to ask you is like, when I started the podcast, it was like, bye, say bye. We got to say the word bye, like, bye visibility, which is, you know, which I support is a good thing. But what's, what I see happening now, especially among younger people is, I'm not bi, I'm not pan, I'm nothing. I have no label. I'm not defining.
00:36:54
Speaker
That's the what I see more from young people. Maybe it's your influence. Do you see that? Is that like the way it's going where it's like, I'm not even like I'm not straight either. I'm not bi. I'm not gay. I'm not straight. i'm I have no label. Do you see that? And why do you think that's happening?
00:37:11
Speaker
a hundred percent. And much as I would love to claim that it was my influence, I'm certainly trying to influence the youth i am as much as possible. um No, I think that that's just the way that it's going. I mean, I think you you look at the kind of celebrities and pop stars and and people who like the younger generation are are looking up to. um And a lot of them are just having this looser definition of of themselves. And I think in in our generation,
00:37:56
Speaker
kind of I grew up in the 90s and the 2000s and um I think that was like being gay was still like really a problem we didn't have equal marriage in the UK like all of this stuff so it was really like that was a big thing to be gay yeah and then that kind of became a bit more acceptable in some places we had. you know and and And then it was kind of like, OK, the labels and things um came out. and And now I think what's wonderful is that there's not as much consequence to your label. It's not as much of a political act to say, I am this or I am that. So people are more able to just
00:38:45
Speaker
be like with it and say, oh, well, you know, I might be a bit at this bit of that. doesn't matter It doesn't matter to people as much. And that's so wonderful. So I think yeah and our political civil rights and the the, although limited, but the progress that has made in some places has allowed for younger people to be less specific. So it's wonderful.
00:39:11
Speaker
I love it. someday my Today, my bye-bye-bye is about the label wars, but maybe a future bye-bye-bye will be bye-bye to labels altogether. We'll see. Maybe that'll just be happening.
Drag as Expression and Defiance
00:39:23
Speaker
ah It does seem to be the trend where it's like we need we need words to talk about the way things are shifting, but also the third the way we're going, I think,
00:39:35
Speaker
the more open it is and less constrained by concepts and labels. That's that sort of, in an ironic way, what bisexuality is to me. It's this expansion of ah possibilities, and that's just this kind of the word that means that to me, but it's really about
00:40:11
Speaker
All right, last thing, I have been really excited to see on your social media recently, you in drag. It's been so fun. You posted some performances you've done. I love your drag persona. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know that guy. He's got nothing to do. with
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah, tell us a little about your alter ego. What is your drag persona? And tell how did you get into that? And what do you like about it? Thank you so much. um I am so delighted that you have connected with the the the world famous um global superstar, Marco Fabolasio. He is my alter ego um and he is everything that Mark is not able to be or hasn't been able to be.
00:41:13
Speaker
in this world. um I've always, I've always performed. I've always been a singer. I was a singer in like a wedding band, a function band. And I've done lots of different things so that if there's anything going on in terms of like singing or performance, like, yo, I'll be there. I'll be doing it doesn't matter what it is. So different times in my life, I've always taken my opportunities to do that. But um one thing that I was able to do actually when I moved to Dublin a few years ago was actually to be fully out and um kind of in queer spaces and things and I had never talked you know what we're talking about before um being kind of repressed and policed in the way that you express yourself I had never been able to sing or
00:42:02
Speaker
or perform in a way that was aligned with my queerness. I was always policing myself. I loved to sing. um But I'd always been constrained by like what was appropriate, what was like manly or masculine. like I couldn't really ever live my like Brittany Christina fantasy and shake around on the stage. It just was never something that was available to me. And so I actually found this queer open mic night in Dublin, which was amazing. There was like comedians, singer-songwriters, poets, drag, like all kinds of different queer performances. It was really this safe and open space to just come and do anything. um Shout out to Sam's Collective, they are wonderful. And I went and I was like, this is amazing. And
00:42:55
Speaker
I thought to myself, okay, well well, what can I do because I love to sing, but everything that I sing is just kind of like a normal song. like um It's not very queer. um And then because I was doing Not Defining, I was like, oh my gosh, why don't I create performances that are like representing the underrepresented parts of the LGBT community or like educating about like different queer experiences or stuff like that. um
00:43:30
Speaker
And so I merged not defining into a a ridiculous performance. And a little bit like like you have done with your comedy, it was that lighter side of things, which I really, really loved.
00:43:45
Speaker
And so in parallel to that, I'd also been marching in a lot of pride parades. I'd been doing the St Patrick's Day parade in Dublin, which has a pride section to it. um And I had been experimenting more and more with like different outfits, different clothes. I love making costumes. I always loved going to festivals, making crazy stuff, like just expressing myself in that way.
00:44:08
Speaker
And so bit by bit I kept going back to this queer open mic and bit by bit I started to like wear more ridiculous stuff and do more ridiculous um more ridiculous performances um to the point that I started like experimenting with makeup and then wigs and then I did all this stuff.
00:44:28
Speaker
And so Marco Fabulasio was born. If you want to see my performances, um I've got a little Instagram page, Marco Fabulasio. I would love for you to come and see the bonkersness of it. um But it's basically in my mind,
00:44:45
Speaker
If I think of my most authentic expression, my most joyous authentic expression, um for a lot of people, for a lot of men, that image would be like a feminine image, like they might be a drag queen. And for a lot of people, that might be what they've always wanted to express. For a drag kings, it might be a a woman who has always wanted to present as like a masculine.
00:45:12
Speaker
For me, it's never been that, but what it's been is just this kind of non-binary, non-defining kind of entity of like pure queer joy and stupidness. um And so Market Fabulous, you know,
00:45:30
Speaker
he just represents that that authentic joy that I have. He also comes out of quite a lot of darkness. As I said I was suffering from PTSD and I'd been through some really traumatic experiences and actually he was my way of expressing joy. So he sings, he dances, he lip syncs,
00:45:53
Speaker
she um He wears a lot of pink, he wears a lot of like ah bright colors, and most of my performances will just be a question of me dancing around and singing to some kind of Britney Spears song.
00:46:08
Speaker
um trying to do stunts and tricks that I can't really do but it's hilarious anyway and kind of giving out like candy and marshmallows and sweets to like the audience and kind of making some deep political point about some kind of LGBT uh identity at the same time so if that's something that you think is a fun time then come come and hit me up uh at Marco Fabolazzi come to a show. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We'll put that in the show notes so you can follow not defining as well as Marco Fabuloso. And I love, I love that you use he, him pronouns for your drag character and which is like sort of, you know, not what you expect from drag. It's traditionally this like gender play of, of
00:47:00
Speaker
playing with the other gender, but but really drag can be anything. It can be in either direction or what you're doing, which is you are fucking with gender and playing with gender, but not necessarily going from one side of the spectrum to the other, which is also interesting given how you define or don't define your gender and use he and they pronouns. So it's just like this heightened version of the you know, unashamed, queer, colorful version of you and it is whatever gender you kind of see in it, I guess. is that How do you think about that?
00:47:41
Speaker
that is exactly what it is, Rob. I think all that when people talk about drag, it's it's really about bringing that part of you, and which for whatever reason you haven't been able to express and exaggerating it and celebrating it. That's really what drag is all about. And so, you know, traditionally that might be, as I said, a kind of a binary, you know, gender or a male or female impersonation. That's beautiful.
00:48:14
Speaker
um that ah What I do when I when I think about my completely deep, authentic um expression that that I have never been able to to show, Marco Faberazzio comes out, like he just comes out and I use he and they or pronouns and people are like, oh, is it a drag queen or a drag king? And I'm like,
00:48:44
Speaker
I'm an anti-monarchist and I don't have a gender. So I, you know, I don't really, so it's just, it's the drag democratically elected representative. Exactly. I'm a, you know, so drag representative. And that's the joy of it. What I, what I love is to do a performance and for people to leave the venue thinking, what on earth did I just witness?
00:49:11
Speaker
ah but like why was there like a seven foot tall like furry smurf gonk with like marshmallow hair writhing around to the pussycat dolls um talking about like bisexuality and like spreading whipped cream all over himself. Like why why was that happening? And like, it very much wasn't hot. Oh, but actually a very, very interesting thing is that
00:49:48
Speaker
I have discovered that ah people ah people ah treat me very differently when I'm in drag, um because I'm really not like a confident person in my body. like um People are like, oh, but you know like i you know you look great. like Why shouldn't you? And I'm like, I'm not that person, even like at the swimming pool. I'm just like, oh, I'm not body confident or anything. But I decided to get into like little pink hot pants and like, you know, leotard and just like, just do it. And put people, people, people flirt with me so much. People are so like, they're just like, you look amazing. You look so hot and stuff.
00:50:32
Speaker
But it's it's it's really interesting, the different way that people find me attractive and the different aspects of me that I never thought could be attractive. And yet they are as market fabulous. So it's a really interesting experience all around.
00:50:50
Speaker
That is awesome. Yeah, I love the outfit. I love the hair. Everyone should check it out. Maybe we'll make it the art album art for this episode. But yeah, actually, that that resonates with me too, because I haven't done drag. But I've i've put on outfits to go to like a queer parties, that outfits that I was too scared to wear for yeah forever and would never have worn. and then And I don't totally feel confident enough to wear them. And then you get there and people comment on it and flirt with you and you're like, oh, I can pull this off actually, what was I afraid of? and it And it almost gives you this confidence to do, to step out of that comfort zone and do that. And I love what you said, like drag is whatever the gender play is, like it's about exaggeration and just like making it stupid.
00:51:39
Speaker
uh that's my favorite part like i love when drag is just like stupid and i love on rupaul when she just is hilarious like cracking up because of how stupid something is that's like the most fun kind of drag so uh i love that you're embracing you're stupid and performing and doing all this stuff, ah that's our time. We've gone way over. we're We've done two episodes worth, which is lovely. And I'm so glad to finally, after years of crossing paths and you and retweeting each other's stuff or not tweeting, ah reposting each other's things, ah to finally get a chance to chat with you on the podcast. Thanks so much for being here, Mark.
00:52:25
Speaker
Thank you, Rob, so much for inviting me and so much for all the work you do. It is such an honor and that it's been so nice speaking with you. Thank you. You're welcome. And i hope I hope we can meet in person someday and I can see how much taller you are
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
00:52:51
Speaker
Alright, thanks Mark. Bye bye, bye bye. Bye.
00:53:01
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode of Two Bye Guys with Mark Cusack. Hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back next week with my friends Vera and Leroy in the Netherlands, who have a bisexual podcast in Dutch, except for one episode that I was on in English. So you can check it out in advance. The podcast is called One Thing Does Not Exclude the Other, if you check out my website, robertbruxcohen.com.
00:53:24
Speaker
go to the book page and scroll down. it It has all the podcasts I've appeared on talking about the book. You can listen to it there and stay tuned to hear them on this podcast next week. Until then, happy October. Thanks for listening. See you soon.
00:53:42
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You get early access, bonus content, and full video episodes. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.