Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Dr. Joshua Gebhardt’s Queer Journey: Faith, Marriage, and Finding Himself (Part 2)
874 Plays1 day ago
In Part 2, Dr. Joshua Gebhardt (a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in working with mixed-orientation couples) turns the lens inward and shares his own personal story — growing up in a conservative Christian environment, navigating masculinity as a college athlete, entering a mixed-orientation marriage himself, and slowly coming to terms with his gay identity. He reflects on the role of religion, shame, repression, and community expectations, and how those experiences ultimately shaped both his life and his work as a therapist. We also discussed how his own experience of coming out to his wife and ultimately divorcing informs his approach with clients. This is an honest look at untangling who you were taught to be from who you truly are — and how that journey can transform the way you help others do the same.
The Gebhardt Group: https://www.thegebhardtgroup.co/home
Email Joshua directly: josh@gebhardtgroup.co
Sign up for Dr. Gebhardt’s Group, “Women Navigating Marriages with Gay or Bisexual Men”: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe-0jju_kpELwu9HPnwP6LA720NcnkYR7UR3lGRcdedqrWqgg/viewform
Support for people in Mixed-Orientation Marriages:
HOW (Husbands Out to Wives): https://how-support.org/
GAMMA: https://www.gammasupport.org/
MOR (Mixed-Orientation Marriages) & More: https://www.morandmore.org/
Mixed Orientation Marriage: Pathways to Success (Free E-Book): https://mixedorientation.com/
AlternatePath (for women who have discovered their husbands are bi or gay): https://groups.io/g/AlternatePath
(Note: these show notes previously and erroneously mentioned "OurPath", which is not my recommendation and which has been traumatic for people I've spoken to.)
More from Rob & Two Bi Guys:
Support Two Bi Guys on Patreon! (Bonus content, early access, and more) https://www.patreon.com/robertbrookscohen
Two Bi Guys on YouTube: youtube.com/@twobiguys
Subscribe to my newsletter (for updates on group coaching and more): https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/newsletter
Book a free intro call with me (re: individual coaching): https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/25-minute-free-intro-call
Attend “Fluid Conversations”: https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/fluid-conversations
Visit my website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/
Follow TBG on IG (and message me for direct correspondence): https://www.instagram.com/twobiguys/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Queer Journey
00:00:12
Speaker
This wonderful. I kind of feel like this is going to be a two part episode and this may be the split point. So, so listeners, if you're hearing this, come back next time to hear Joshua's story. um And thanks for listening to this episode.
00:00:29
Speaker
And yeah. Okay. And now we'll just get right into your story. um So here we go. Part two.
Impact of Upbringing on Identity
00:00:36
Speaker
What's your queer journey been like?
00:00:40
Speaker
However you want to tell it. Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, thanks so much for giving me a space to do that. But, um you know, I mean, i've um I've I've really hid in my my clinical work because that's just a has always just been and in my academic and and empirical empirical work. It's just always been where I have found the most safety.
00:01:09
Speaker
um i I grew up in a in a pretty conservative and religious community.
00:01:18
Speaker
From the time i was even in pre-K, I mean, I was in church school and, you know, church and or school in the basement of ah of a local church and through elementary, middle and high school, I was at a private Christian school.
00:01:31
Speaker
And, um you know, I just would say like, it's just it's just the stereotyical stereotypical experience of being a queer person in that space. I mean, there was,
00:01:43
Speaker
There was no conversation about fluidity. There was no conversation about healthy sex and education on that. and And so, you know, my my worldview was just so small, so, so small. I mean, I think, you know, and most of my school was less than 200 people. you know, I mean, was just really, really small. And then, so, you know, again, I i just have been pretty much inundated with how ah religion, particularly Christianity, saw being a queer person. And i i I just didn't have language for it. You know, I think but think if I could, like, gosh, up to...
00:02:31
Speaker
up to maybe my young adulthood years, you know did I really even kind of begin to understand what it meant to be gay? I mean,
Challenges in College and Marriage Expectations
00:02:39
Speaker
the the language I had was it's unwanted same sex attraction. you know and So again, obviously when it's unwanted, you know there was these these implications are or like connotations that like there it could be changed in some way.
00:02:58
Speaker
You know, like it was something you kind of had to like wrestle with or or fight against. And that's what I spent most of my, you know, teenage years and young adult years doing. um I also was in the pursuits of, of well, I was a college athlete. i i played basketball.
00:03:19
Speaker
football in college. And obviously there's a there's a a whole, again, you know, expectation of, of, of masculinity that's embedded in, um, and, and, and competing at a collegiate level, especially something like football and obviously like you know, locker room culture and things like that.
00:03:40
Speaker
You know, any anything that was seen as like feminine or AKA gay was just not not acceptable. So even when I went off to college and I didn't, the school I went to was not a religious school, it was a public university.
00:03:54
Speaker
You know, i was I was then forced right back into this really, really intense masculine environment. And so there there just wasn't ever environmentally space ah for me to explore, to understand. and And I would just say this, like, prior to my divorce and prior to oh coming to terms with my sexuality, which was in my my late 20s, I mean, I would genuinely have told you that I'm not gay, you know, I'm i'm not bisexual, i'm not queer, i'm not any of those things.
00:04:32
Speaker
because my worldview was centered around like, again, this is the choice and it's not something, or it's something that I should be controlling. So, you know, I, again, that's, that's my, my background and everything around my community told me, you know, to, and like who my personhood was, was to be married,
00:04:58
Speaker
was to have kids, was to be in church, was to support others and serve others. And, you know, that's the only thing I pursued. Like, i I honestly just didn't even know there was another option for me.
00:05:12
Speaker
And
Struggles with Identity Suppression
00:05:13
Speaker
I know that that sounds like so ignorant, but I mean, that's just that just was my my experience. I, you know, like, I mean, I i had I had ah experiences, you know, with, you know, like friends and stuff growing up that, I mean, honestly could have been easily written off as just like, that's just what boys do. Like it wasn't anything, know,
00:05:38
Speaker
like explicit sex or anything like that. It was just, you know, a bunch of, you know, i so ah sheltered private school kids that just, you know, were acting out sexually with each other, you know, like in, you know, and so there there wasn't ever like a relationship component to what I did or there wasn't actually, again, any explicit sex. And so,
00:05:56
Speaker
You know, for all its worth. And, you know, like my my duty at that time was, you know, to to be a virgin when I got married, you know, and I and I really, really, really stuck to that. Like that was that was a narrative that that kept me closeted for a long time.
00:06:12
Speaker
And now that I look back on it, I mean, you know, I have to take some accountability to this. I mean, I was terrified. You know, I think I hid behind that. you know, I ah couldn't ever imagine my my teammates, my coach, my my church community or anybody like that understanding who I was as a gay or queer person. And so, you know, I just, I fell into what was most ah privileged for me. And being that I presented masculine, i was an athlete, um you know, and I could, an and then I was married, you know, all all of those things like just didn't coincide for me to like ever responsibility
00:06:59
Speaker
my queerness serious because there just wasn't space for it. Wow. Interesting. And before we get it, I want to ask about your marriage, but like, it just seems like those kind of homoerotic, like things that happen that are not explicitly sexual, but that you look back and they're kind of charged. I feel like those kinds of things happen and especially more in the more like repressed environments or like where straightness is the only option, like religious communities or, you know, even just like summer camp where there's no visible queerness, like just any kind of environment where straight is the only option. Then these like things happen that, you
00:07:43
Speaker
where this is getting expressed in a way that kind of is acceptable or works and isn't explicit. Can, can you talk about like what that can look like either in your life or other things you've heard, whatever you want to share?
00:07:59
Speaker
Well, I can, I can share about what it looked like in, in my life. And it was, um it was it was just a lot of fear. I mean, it was it was constant anxiety and fear.
00:08:10
Speaker
um i think ah I did my best to buffer those symptoms, um but you know it it just it it just would would manifest itself that way. I mean, it was just so much constant suppression.
00:08:25
Speaker
um
Counseling and Conversion Therapy Insights
00:08:27
Speaker
you know i I don't mean to to deter the topic away from me, but like you know i mean i i've i've worked with individuals um who will come help remember this one particular client that came to me um and he unfortunately suffered from from ocd and um he was religious as well and uh in in session like he would never look at me in the eyes like he just always was looking down and you know after the first time i met with him i was like you know what
00:08:56
Speaker
what's what's going on here like but you know is everything okay and he was like you know i can't look at you because if i look at you then i'm going to feel attracted and then if i feel attracted then i'm gay and then if i'm gay i'm going to hell and if you know and it was just this huge spiral ah and obsessive and compulsive thinking that he was just i mean he was miserable he was miserable and so you know i i don't i'm using that as an example of like that's kind of what it felt like internally you know you know i'm just like just constant suppression constant suppression So that's that's what it felt it felt like for me. You know, I would i would say within the the scope of what it looks like in mixed orientation couples, you know, there are a lot of men that that that echo coming from a conservative and or a religious background. But there are some men that that don't. You don't have to have that experience to go through this, you know. um but But what I would say about that is...
00:09:46
Speaker
um you know in And this was what some of the research or some of the the the data that came from my research was when I was interviewing these counselors and I was talking about like, okay, how are these men understanding themselves? how are you working with them?
00:10:02
Speaker
How's the wife reacting? they you know a lot of them would say, you know you know i was i was struck by the fact of how many men had who had came to me had just been through conversion therapy, you know like six months before that.
00:10:18
Speaker
um Or they had seen another counselor who labeled their sexual expression as an addiction and put them in a 12 step group immediately. And, you know, any other thing but besides like, again, heteronormative straight sex was seen as like this massive deviation.
00:10:37
Speaker
which was was startling to me because obviously we know that conversion therapy does not work. it's It's not an effective tool, but it it was like this modern day version of conversion therapy. it was like a rebrand for conversion therapy, you know, where these these couples have gone to pastors or they've gone to other people in their community and they've referred them to actual conversion therapy or they label,
00:11:06
Speaker
prematurely their gayness or queerness as an addiction. And it's, what's so unfortunate about that is you just, you see the psychological toll that that plays out for men in those situations and it's it's really dire.
00:11:20
Speaker
You know, I mean, the
Identity Crisis and Self-Discovery
00:11:21
Speaker
the risk we pose here is just, unfortunately, just the amount of, you know, suicidal thoughts and feelings and things that can come up for for men and and in these in these situations.
00:11:36
Speaker
Right. I mean, that makes so much sense. in it And it kind of makes my blood boil because it's like a lot of people, they're finally seeking help and reaching out and exposing themselves and then like getting stabbed, you know, like it may. And then those things make it worse when you're finally ready to receive help from the universe. And it actually compounds the shame and makes you feel like you're broken and need to be fixed instead of,
00:12:02
Speaker
the other way around. I'm glad you mentioned those things. And also like what you said earlier about like how, how this stuff shows up in those kinds of environments. That makes a lot of sense to me where it's like, it's not even necessarily anything out of the ordinary or explicitly sexual. It's about how you feel in these situations. Like I remember like a locker room or a shower house caused, used to cause me so much internal tension. And I like, was deathly afraid of being naked in these spaces. I would always wrap the towel very tightly and like, you know, put, put clothes on and off like carefully and like not looking, avoiding, you know, eye contact.
00:12:48
Speaker
And you know, it's just like locker rooms exist. They have to exist. The shot, you know, how else can you shower at summer camp other than like a communal shower? But like So it wasn't the situation itself. It was my internal reaction to it that looking back was the clue. and So that's a really, really interesting.
00:13:09
Speaker
which is why advocacy is so important, which is why, um you know, again, education is so important because, i you know, you have to have a space for it to be expressed.
00:13:23
Speaker
And i mean, you know, they're there is it's just not a lot of openness in conservative and religious groups to see those things.
00:13:35
Speaker
You know, so again, that can be really detrimental little part of this.
00:13:49
Speaker
All right. So tell us about like meeting, however much you want to share about your marriage, like meeting your wife, you know, and then tell us that, that journey leading up to um disclosure and everything.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, so, i mean, we ah we we had known each other since we were young. I mean, we we started grade school. Well, I mean, I guess you technically call it middle school together. um And so because we were in such a small community, our our families and extended families were all intermingled. um you know And so we we had known each other for a long time.
00:14:31
Speaker
ah You know, as far as far as like the extent of our relationship, I think that this is really important to note, like, you know, I would say that I had a really satisfying marriage, you know, like I i was very happy in that relationship.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah. which, you know, again, led me to this work because when I, when I reached out or when I, I looked at both ends of the spectrum, like kind of like this, you know, heteronormative ideal or like this gay affirmative ideal, you know, the type of bond and connection we had wasn't really explained by either.
00:15:06
Speaker
Because again, in the, at our normative camp it was like well you know you should be straight like and that's the only way that this works and and you know ah unintentionally the the game and informative agenda sort of swayed me into saying things like you have to only be authentic you know and there's no there's no room for anything other than that which you know again i can understand the the spirit behind that now but at the time was just very confusing for me um And so, ah again, i I would say our relationship was was good. i think it was emotionally deep.
00:15:43
Speaker
um I would would have said that, you know, during our marriage, you know, we generally saw each other as, as, as companions and partners and and best friends.
00:15:54
Speaker
We went through a lot of life together. um And again, and, you know, even, even through the divorce process, like those things were still very true.
00:16:05
Speaker
um ah Unfortunately, it was about 10 years into our relationship where, ah I had had an experience with ah another van and of it it was explicit.
00:16:23
Speaker
It was something I could not ignore. It wasn't something I sought after. it it it honestly just it just presented itself. um And at that point, I had a decision that i i like I couldn't look away from it anymore. You know, like I, I think my context previously was like, again, this is something that I could like pray through or I could like, you know, conquer.
00:16:52
Speaker
But at the point that I had got to with this other person sexually, like ah it was just something I couldn't ignore anymore, um which at that point is, you know, I.
00:17:05
Speaker
I had a full identity crisis. You know, it was, uh, it was extremely difficult for me and, and, and for her, but you know, I, it was just, it was confusing.
00:17:16
Speaker
Um, I didn't have a lot of places to turn. Luckily I had a great individual therapist at the point at this point who, um, was actually was a gay man and a clergy. I think in the Methodist Lutheran or i don't know, maybe it was in a Catholic church. i'm I'm not exactly sure. But you know he was the safest person that I had available to me.
00:17:42
Speaker
And it was the first time that somebody from a religious perspective could speak to me about what I was actually feeling internally. Because again, My understanding and identity was simply based on what the Bible told me. yeah There was no biological or um physical education that I ever experienced that was healthy. I mean i i recall like my ninth grade physical education or PE e class where our our teacher brought all the the ninth grade boys into a shared space. and
00:18:18
Speaker
you know, you could tell like, okay, this is about to be the sex talk, you know, like it's, it's about to happen. And he pulls up this website and it was this like chess, chess, chastity, or like um virginity, like program that, that was for for like teenage boys. And I'll never forget. It was the It was the the program was every time you masturbate, you kill a kitten.
00:18:49
Speaker
And as ridiculous as as that was, and obviously when he's showing this, I mean, you know, it's bunch of locker room boys, like everybody's losing it.
00:19:00
Speaker
But for for me, like, I mean, was like, well, I don't want to do that. You know, like what, you know, it and and so again, that just kind of showcases like how small my world was. um And so, again, my my counselor, Josh Noblet, was was just so helpful to to helping me kind of piece these things together.
00:19:22
Speaker
um
Rebuilding Identity Post-Divorce
00:19:24
Speaker
So, again, at that point, um we. the experience with, with that guy, had gone on.
00:19:33
Speaker
Um, and I shared it and disclosed it and we, we attempted to, um, or we, we eventually separated and then we, you know, attempted to go to counseling and things like that. But, uh, we, we divorced really quickly.
00:19:49
Speaker
think from, think from the time that we, um,
00:19:56
Speaker
I had disclosed what had happened. We were divorced in three months. ah Wow. Yeah. So you're in that first category we talked about earlier in the last episode. Yeah. And you had been married for about 10 years, you said?
00:20:10
Speaker
Yeah, we were together for about 10 years altogether. Together. Yeah. Wow. And like, yeah, how, I mean, what was navigating that like? and then And then on the other side of it too, like, what did you go through after that?
00:20:27
Speaker
I mean, yeah, that um that was that was the most... I mean, I don't know how to go out but to say this, but like you know I felt like a 13-year-old in a 30-year-old body.
00:20:46
Speaker
you know like I mean, there was just so many like pieces of my identity and my sexual development that just all came crashing down. You know, and and so at that point, you know, when when we had both agreed to divorce, you know, it it was it felt like a ah task for me to begin to understand that. Like, I mean, I i i didn't know in the the the full spectrum of of of who I was and um and and what I wanted. And so i set out to find that. and and And let me be really clear. Like, i mean, i I had to rebuild. like, you know, and again, i i'm I'm not trying to be like a victim to this.
00:21:32
Speaker
um I'm not trying to not take responsibility at all, but like, I mean, I just didn't have anybody that I could reach out or reached out to me. You know, i i knew one gay person at that point.
00:21:44
Speaker
and And so, I mean, I was rebuilding from from the bottom up. I mean, I had... the The safest thing that I could find was a gay men's Bible study group that was in Atlanta.
00:21:57
Speaker
um And it was so it was you know me wrestling with my faith in my and religious text and how I understood that. That was really a core piece to to that initial stage. And then it was also just like making gay and queer and lesbian and bi and trans friends. Like i I just, I didn't know. I mean, i oh my gosh, I can't tell you how much I got made fun of for like not knowing all the like drag race references at that point. I just didn't know anything. it wasn't a cult I wasn't acculturated in that point. So, you know,
Exploring Mixed-Orientation Marriages
00:22:33
Speaker
at that point I was...
00:22:34
Speaker
I was just making friends and and trying to rebuild community. um I was also still in my my Ph.D. program. And so i really.
00:22:47
Speaker
You know, like dug into the books and like hid behind research so that I could try my best to understand who I was and what was going on. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. Thank you for sharing so much of the story. And then maybe there's more, but with i when you said earlier that you like had a happy marriage, at like it reminded me of...
00:23:11
Speaker
this article that just came out in the New York Times a couple of weeks ago that I'm guessing you saw it, but it was about gay identified men, specifically gay identified as opposed to i who are married to women. And it was an article about like how this works and why it, were and like so there are many couples who do choose to stay together in that orientation and like it's counterintuitive. And I think the question people ask is like,
00:23:39
Speaker
how can a gay man be married to a woman and be happy? And how could she be happy? ah how How would you answer that question? Like, how is that possible? Yeah. I mean, uh, Rabbi, I think that that's probably the biggest question that I, I, I attempted to answer in my research, because again, when I was inundating with both camps of like, you gotta be straight or you gotta be gay. Like, you know, that just didn't fit my experience. I mean, I, again, I think at that time I would have genuinely said like, no, I, I, I love my wife, you know?
00:24:10
Speaker
and, and and And so here I am having these internal experiences and identity shifting while also still being very much so ah identifying with who I was in this marriage.
00:24:24
Speaker
um and And it was just so confusing. and And if I could, like, I think from my my research, like that's that's a lot of what what came from it was like counselors just felt so pressured to be pushed into these binaries, gay or straight.
00:24:41
Speaker
you know, monogamy, non-monogamy. And it was just one or the other. And, you know, the the counselors that reported to have the most success or that the couples seem to have, you know, had the best experiences with were the couples and the counselors that could understand the aspect of fluidity.
00:24:58
Speaker
And the the beautiful thing that I would like to emphasize, and i I don't think I got to emphasize this on the, you know, the first part was that the relationships between gay or bisexual men and straight women are beautiful.
00:25:12
Speaker
Whether it's, you know, intentionally agreed upon as a lavender marriage or, you know, or something like that, um or it's, you know, you uncover something ah along the way.
00:25:24
Speaker
there's There's beauty in that. And, you know, there's there's ah there's types of love that transcend traditional and, you know, societally accepting terms like,
00:25:36
Speaker
you know, again, like there's, there's just such a wrestling with, with, with couples and therapists that like, you know, but, but they have to be gay. Like, you know, how are they the only one have sex with, um, with men and, you know, like, but they still have sex with her and they report being happy about that. And, but if they're bisexual, but like, then what do we do about this gay, you know, like there's just such a, ah confusion around that, that Yeah.
00:26:01
Speaker
you You know, they they they they just they don't really go anywhere with it. And and it just forces the the couple to have to make these really like dire, you know, like decisions of like, oh, we've got to get a divorce. And and that's just not true.
00:26:18
Speaker
You know, and and there's a lot of couples that have differing sexualities that find their relationship to be very, very deep, um to be very pleasurable and to be very satisfying.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. And like some of it to me, what's coming up for me is like, how much of that is a semantic distinction that then gets like integrated into the relationship dynamics and how you feel versus like what's actually real and authentically there. Cause like, you know, for me
Examining Identity Labels and Fluidity
00:26:54
Speaker
semantically, it's like, if you can love,
00:26:57
Speaker
ah if like you could love a woman and be in a relationship with a woman, to me, that's like, you could call yourself bi, but many people don't look at it that way or don't know that, or just gay just feels right to them, even if they're in this loving relationship. And it brings up this idea of like, so you know, sexual attraction versus emotional or romantic connection. And many people boil down your sexuality to the sexual attraction And like, oh, if you can be emotionally or romantically connected, that's like a separate thing. And so that's not my sexual identity, but I still am connected to and love my wife. Like, I don't know what my question is, but like, how do you think about like these definitions and these terms and how that can affect the actual experience?
00:27:48
Speaker
um Yeah, so like i'll I would be the first person to say that identity is so important. Like you you have to have an identity. I mean, that that's just core to human psychology, like how we make meaning of things is so significant.
00:28:07
Speaker
But when the meaning that we assign to those labels or to those concepts or to to the the marriage that are explicitly negative, hurtful and harmful.
00:28:19
Speaker
I mean, you know, why why would you want to be in that relationship? You know, and the unfortunate part about that is, you know, my couples will find such. peace in that in my my therapy session.
00:28:33
Speaker
And then they go out into their in their community and they go, i can't do this. Nothing around me reinforces what we have here. And it's a real shame because i can't tell you. Well, I'll just be explicit. I don't think I've ever worked with a couple who did not share a deep love, care and affection for for one another. You think that's often a mis misconception that, you know, a gay or bisexual man can't love a straight woman and in a deep romantic sexual way. Like, I mean, I think that can genuinely happen.
00:29:04
Speaker
You know, the the the spectrum of desire and fulfillment in that is is a whole other story, but that doesn't mean it's not true. You know, and so, again, these these couples and therapists really are on this hunt for truth around like, you know, well, it's if you're gay, you're gay, you know, but it's so much more complex than that.
00:29:23
Speaker
Can I press you on that for a second? Because it's so interesting. And it's something I think about a lot. where it's like When you said that gay or bi, I feel like doesn't conflict at all for a bi man to love his wife. But the the question people would ask is, like how how can a gay man love a woman? right like and And I get it. I've seen it. But how do you answer you answer that Well, my, what does it mean to be gay? If you love a woman, I guess is another way. Exactly. Exactly. Um, I would answer that with, uh, how some of my clients answer it and they say I'm gay plus one.
00:30:04
Speaker
ah And, you know, they, they leave room for, for what they're experiencing with their wife. Um, you know, I mean, i don't know if your listeners would agree with this. I don't know if you would agree with this, but, uh, you know,
00:30:18
Speaker
I don't think I would call that a dissonance. You know, like I, I think that there is a genuine part of of them that experiences that love connection in that moment, how how we define that, um, can, can be so expansive, so expansive. And and the thing is, is like,
00:30:34
Speaker
You know, I know we're fixated so much on like the mixed orientation aspect of this, but like in heterosexual couples or other traditional couples that they go through waxing and waning of love, care and affection over the course of their relationship too. It's, it's just that this, this sex or the sexual identity or orientation piece seems to be so taboo and rich with all types of negative connotations that it just, it forces couples to not be able to make meaning for themselves.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. that The gay plus one thing is is really important and interesting. I think it was in that New York Times article and I heard it a lot at the How conference. And when people find that term, ah it really like you can see the energy in that and the opening and expansion and like, you know, comfort it with that label for some people where it's just like,
00:31:31
Speaker
what I think about my attractions, it you know, it fits in with gay. And this also happened. Like, I also love my wife. Somehow that that happened and it's real and it's valid.
00:31:43
Speaker
I don't ever see myself with any other woman ever, but this thing happened and is, is real. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you've written a book on this, I mean, I, I would be curious cause I've, I've written journal articles about this and talked about bisexuality a lot. Um,
00:32:02
Speaker
But I mean, how does that feel for, ah for somebody who identifies as bisexual? Does that, does that feel like that that takes away from, from bisexuality? You know, i think like a few years ago, my reaction would have been like, that's bi, like gay plus one is bi. And like, bi means the but possibility or potential of attraction romantically or, and or sexually to more than one gender. And so if, if you've,
00:32:30
Speaker
loved one woman in your life and and that's it. Like it's under the bi umbrella, but then, but then like in practice and in reality, in the few years since, since I've been actually working with clients and not just navigating my own stuff and talking on a podcast, I've met so many people who just, that doesn't fit for them. Like eye just doesn't fit because they're,
00:32:57
Speaker
even though maybe it technically falls under that umbrella definition, gay just feels right to them. And I can see even your, like, I can see even your energy as I say it. It's like, yeah. And, and who am I to say what you should identify as?
00:33:14
Speaker
And just gay plus one feels right. And so like, to me, it's actually semantic, whether that falls under the bi umbrella or not. It's like, And so i I'm coming to understand how valid and and actually quite common that identity might be. Whatever the reasons it develops and whatever the reasons that identity feels more comfortable to people. um Yeah, i'm i'm I'm leaning now more towards like, you do you, honey. And like that, that's fair and valid. Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I, uh, I would agree because like we, we both know the understandings, uh, of the concept of buyer ratio and yeah how, again, the harm that can cause from pushing somebody to a ah binary position.
00:34:04
Speaker
Um, and I have a colleague of mine and I think her research is important to mention. She, she talked about this in terms of mixed orientation couples. Um, and, uh, her name is Susan Benek, uh, and,
00:34:17
Speaker
she talked about these essentialist scripts. Like, you're essentially gay if you do this. Or, you know, you essentially can only love one person because you're monogamous.
00:34:30
Speaker
And how that those scripts can... I mean, and unfortunately, like either or will really just kind of like impact negatively or or sometimes ruin a connection between a couple. And and in my research, I found them like, you know, these these counselors were and unintentionally doing that because they just they didn't understand that concept. You know, yeah so it is a real phenomenon.
00:34:55
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and it also speaks to something I truly have believed for a while, which is like these, the labels and the scripts and the stories, like when we're struggling and confused and figuring things out, those things can be super helpful just to be like, oh, I'm not alone in this. This is a pathway for me.
00:35:14
Speaker
Great. There's other people who've gone down this road, but then there is a certain point where like the label can, or the label of the story can limit you. And actually just like, it like figuring out what is without the label is so much more helpful than deciding what to call it. And it's, you know, it's the sorting hat in Harry Potter. It's like, you know, he was, had the Slytherin in him, but he was like, no, I'm a Gryffindor. And like, yeah, he is a Gryffindor. That's what he is.
00:35:47
Speaker
You know, sorting hat. Yeah, for sure. And I, yeah for sure and i I would say like there there is a fine line between what you're describing and maybe how some other people groups and groups would understand that because as long as the messages is not reinforcing things that this is something that needs to be controlled or tampered or reduced or or suppressed,
00:36:15
Speaker
go for it. But there's so there's so many communities out there that would would do that. And even in in very ah queer positive, gay positive or affirming spaces, you know, it's like ah ah such a ah misrepresentation of like, well, you got to be only this, no ands, if, or buts. and And that just can be harmful because again, you know, for the the husbands and men that I've worked with, their life looks nothing like that.
00:36:42
Speaker
You know, so you can spend hours and hours and hours trying to help them like morph an identity into this box and label that just really does not encompass their experience.
00:36:54
Speaker
yeah And by that point, they're exhausted, you're exhausted, and they don't want to come back for therapy. Right, right. Interesting.
00:37:08
Speaker
Okay, I want to ask you a couple quick things before we end that we've talked about before and I think are fascinating and I want to get to. um But the one i the one I really want to make sure we get to is this support group you run for women who are married to queer men.
Support for Women in Queer Marriages
00:37:23
Speaker
Tell us about that. We need more of that. I can already tell before hearing about it, but tell us what that's like and how you decided to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um So, I mean, I would say its point of conception, like, um honestly, clinically, I just, I had so many men who had resources. The husbands were supported.
00:37:52
Speaker
I was sending them to support groups, online chats, therapists, all of those things. And so there was this, like, you know, really intense dichotomy between the husband and the wives, you know, recovery and treatment process because the husband was well on his way to understanding and being supported, having people that can just pat him on the back and say it's going to be okay. And then you had the woman or the the wife who just became isolated.
00:38:20
Speaker
You know, in and she would just shrivel as a person and and she would just um be be just so so isolated from from any kind of group that...
00:38:32
Speaker
ah you know I mean, I even had a hard time finding like reliable individual counselors to send them to because I was so protective about them not falling into a therapist who emphasized these essential scripts or like binaries that we were working so hard to not fall a trap to.
00:38:52
Speaker
um Not to say that you know you can at some point go to those extremes and look, but I wanted space for that therapeutically to be be housed. And there just was not a ah ton of that. And I mean, even even till this day, I mean, like you know there there are some online support groups, um I believe, how think there's a a group called Mom yeah and ah and or more More. I think it's more and more. and I've interviewed the creator of that group on this podcast. Okay, great.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah. So so those those are all, and I think maybe there's some... some Gamma? Is gamma include women? No, maybe not. No, gamema the gamma is for men, but there's ah it's like pathway or I'm not sure. Maybe yeah we can figure like that out. I'll put it in the show notes.
00:39:41
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect. So, you know, those groups are things that are accessible, but a lot of the women that I worked with, they were just like, you know Josh, there's nothing local. We yeah just, I need to be in a room and a space where I can see other women go through this experience and feel like I'm not alone.
00:39:55
Speaker
And i mean, i I can't tell you how much I put that off, you know, like I, I sought counsel on it. I sought consultation. I sought to other therapists. Like, you know should I do this group? Like, and I got, so I mean, this went on for like two years. I was like, you know, is this something that should be done? I mean, I, don't know if this is something that's, you know, I should lead or, you know, obviously I've been in this circumstance and situation. Like, I don't know how they're going to respond with one, a man leading the group.
00:40:26
Speaker
And then also me having the experience. And I mean, countless therapists told me like, don't do it. Just don't do it. it's not it does it it it and It's not worth it. And I'll have to attribute to one of the the clients that I worked with. She insisted, constantly insisted. There was maybe two clients that did. They just, they were on on me about it all the time. and And so I really attribute it to them. they They really encouraged me to to create the group. And so we we meet once a month.
00:40:54
Speaker
The group, again, consists of women who are either currently in relationships with gay or bisexual men and or who have been divorced from gay and bisexual men.
00:41:06
Speaker
So you have a a lot of people in the group that are on different continuums of you know their experience in it, but all of it is just, it is so, first off, I just would say it's just, it's so tender. Like it's just such a a beautiful,
00:41:25
Speaker
space where you know you can see people in the group for the first time just like, you know, feel like, oh, I'm not alone, you know, and i and I'm not crazy for failing or going through this. and Oh, my God, I love my husband, but like, what what the hell's going on here? What? I don't understand, you know, and and for them to just say that and somebody else go, I get it. I get it. It's just it's it's a really beautiful thing. But, um you know, there's there's just so many overlaps between regardless of where you're at in that in that process. But again, it really just was birthed out of like just need and necessity.
00:41:58
Speaker
Cool. That's amazing. like ah you know It goes back to what we were talking about earlier, this idea of like you know sometimes on these message boards um and some of these groups that are virtual, the people it's attracting are the people who are really, really upset and going through it. And so a lot of what you then read when you first encounter it, or even on like a Reddit thread, is really negative and harsh and you know just upset. And so then it perpetuates this feeling that like there's no good answer to this and there's no solution and it's terrible.
00:42:33
Speaker
And you know that's not true. like There's so there's so much... beauty in that experience, whether the couple stays together or not, there can be growth and you know authenticity. And so to have an in-person group is amazing. you know I've talked to Candice who created more and more about that. And that's why she created it was because when she went through that, she went online and there was nothing but negativity and negative stories.
00:43:03
Speaker
And she figured it out and navigated it. And they have this like really strong marriage that stayed together. And that's, that's out there too. And, and the support for that is really helpful to just know you're, you're not just as it is for the guys, like to know that this experience is common and you're not going through it alone and to have that support.
00:43:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, to echo the the necessity for this is to say that because of the emotional and relational and heck even the community intensity that can come from these situations because my gosh these things can become public really really quickly um you know there is a is a reality where the isolation that comes from when uh you know, your spouse is sleeping with somebody of the same sex, you know, there's there's sometimes where, you know, I'm working with people that are public figures, you know, and they're, they're having to hide that because it will terrorize their family. They hold high positions in companies or, you know, politicians, clergy, ah pastors, all those kinds of things. Yeah.
00:44:21
Speaker
And so, you know, again, the the stress that can come from from that um can just be be so so divisive that, you know, if if there's just a ah moment where somebody can just kind of catch their breath and and realize, like, their whole world is, like, not going to fall apart because of this, it just goes a long way. And so, you know, counselors can't just hold that themselves. Like, you know, they they have to have, you know, community resources. They have to have other resources.
00:44:52
Speaker
educated practitioners who understand what's going on. And to your point, like a space that is is actually, you know, being curated and led because like like you mentioned, I mean, there's the negativity that can come from that even within the group. I mean, it
Marriage, Identity, and Misconceptions
00:45:09
Speaker
can it can get intense really, really quickly.
00:45:11
Speaker
Right. I'd imagine like, yeah, having a guide who knows a lot about this experience would be very useful ah to just kind of stop some of those negative thought loops that are not really true, but based on stigma and stereotypes.
00:45:26
Speaker
ah So it's amazing that you're doing that. We will put some links to your work and how people can contact you in the show notes if you're interested joining that group. And I may steal your idea and start a group like that if you don't mind, because there's we got more of this. there's more you know It's amazing you're doing a group, but there's so many more people out there who could use it. So stay tuned. I may offer a similar group.
00:45:56
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah, I think you should.
00:46:05
Speaker
Okay, we got to end in a few minutes because i have a client coming up, but um can I ask you two real quick things? Go for it. That are left over? Yeah, go for it. this Maybe this will be bonus bonus footage. but um When we talked like a month ago, you brought up this this idea that is really common in people's minds. That's like, you know, when queer men or or anyone knows something about themselves, it's this idea of like, once you get married, that will solve everything. That'll like marriage will fix it.
00:46:39
Speaker
Can you speak to that? It's just so common.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and I want to be really sensitive to the fact that like, you know, theyre there are bisexual men that that marry women and, you know, these these issues really never like surface, you know, but unfortunately. It might, I mean, fix maybe isn't the word, but it can actually, like, i guess if you're monogamous, right, like then you don't have to deal with any of these other things if you marry a woman.
00:47:16
Speaker
so Sort of. it It depends. It depends. I mean, i I guess what I would say is, is that most most of the couples that I'm working with are not coming from a informed
00:47:31
Speaker
place around identity. Like they entered into the marriage with the expectation that they were going to, they were both straight and they were both monogamous. you know, and so again, you know, if you uphold those ideals, those traditional values, which are good, um, you know, oftentimes those can just be replicated most commonly in very conservative spaces. And so, he's somebody who deviates from that though.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we, we, we've done research on this and we've looked at it, you know, like, uh, men will get married to gay or bisexual married or men will get married to women because, a They want to hide their identity.
00:48:12
Speaker
um They want a family. They marry for love, companionship, a misunderstanding of their sexuality. I mean, the host, the motivators are are are expansive of why that happens.
00:48:26
Speaker
um And there's been a lot of reasons, or there's been a lot of ah clinicians and researchers that have tried to like operationalize or or theorize like why that phenomenon happens.
00:48:37
Speaker
You know, but I'll say this as somebody who is a,
00:48:45
Speaker
who has extensively looked at at the research on this, the motivators behind why that happens. It's just, unfortunately, when it comes down to it, just, I mean, it's good, but it's, it's also the reason why everybody else gets married, you know, like,
00:49:00
Speaker
Some people want to have companionship for the rest of their lives. Some people want to have love. Some people are insecure about certain parts of themselves and, ah you know, find reprieve in this other person that that they can share intimately with.
00:49:15
Speaker
like and So like, who am I as a ah counselor to to discredit that? You know, and if if that's what led you to this point, you know, we have to take that as true and not and authentic.
00:49:27
Speaker
Um, and, and not as something that's a ah lie, because again, like for the wives, they, they, they just feel so deceived. They feel stupid.
00:49:38
Speaker
um they feel like they've been bombarded and they just,
00:49:45
Speaker
they feel like they, how could I not know this piece of information about the person that I know most deeply? um You know, and and and that's what I'm spending a lot of time with. It's like, okay, where's where's that belief coming from?
00:50:01
Speaker
You know, like, is is that from heteronormative or, you know, a gay affirming place? Because we have to understand that your relationship doesn't exist in that binary. Right. You know, like you you found love and care and affection in a place that is true to you.
00:50:17
Speaker
You know, and and I would say this, that the people in these situations or the couples that do the best can reconcile. The fact that they both care and love somebody who is not who they thought they were.
00:50:37
Speaker
And those people are the or those couples are the ones that typically have the most success in this situation. And and also, too, i would say for my own self, like when I get most bombarded or stressed or overwhelmed by understanding, you know, that experience in my life, it's because there's a the a little bit of of trauma that kind of creeps out for me where it's like, you know,
00:51:01
Speaker
I can't see the good in any of the relationship that that I had. It's like, you know, how could you have done that? you You know, you were gay the whole time, you know, you were lying the whole time.
00:51:12
Speaker
And i I have to really like take accountability for those those thoughts because that's just not true. You know, yeah prior to me going through that experience and or I would say, you know, for wives who have had the experience of of of figuring out their identity, you know, like this piece and meaning that you're applying to the relationship was not their prior, you know, it's their present because you're traumatized by it all, you know, and so you you you really have to be able to get through the hump of that comes along with that negative attribution to you and the relationship.
00:51:47
Speaker
So whereas it's important to understand like, yeah, OK, you know, this is why, ah you know, gay or bi married or gay or bisexual men marry you know straight women, I think ultimately is just the beginning step. Like there there is just so much abundance of love that can kind has been experienced that, you know, kind of gets overlooked by just simply asking that question.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. I'm glad I asked you that. I could go deeper into that because that was a really interesting answer. But like the thing that really resonated for me is like thinking of it as marriage is going to fix this, maybe a not helpful way to think about it because like it implies there's something to be fixed that's wrong or broken, but there are lots of reasons to get married and you can do it for whatever reason you want. It's a social construct. It's like, ah you know, and so like to do it for companionship or like, the reasons that a gay or bi man might do it to address something are not ah so, not necessarily so categorically different from the reasons anyone chooses to get married, um to address something or to have a certain type of life. That's really interesting. Okay. Last thing. And then we got to go. but I just have to ask you this. You, see you said, you know, when, when gay or bi men sort of
00:53:03
Speaker
get advice of what to do, there's often two camps. There's this camp of like, just be gay and go live your life and get get out of this marriage. And then there's the camp of like, you should stay married and stick it out and tuck those feelings in and make it work. And you said, neither of those is helpful. So like, why is not why why are neither of those helpful? And like, what is the advice you might give?
00:53:29
Speaker
instead? ah Well, so so, you know, i would say that in the short term, one of those answers feels really, really true and feels really, really like the only way to go.
00:53:42
Speaker
But
Navigating Mixed-Orientation Marriages
00:53:43
Speaker
i can I can propose that
00:53:49
Speaker
you just can't go back in the closet after that experience. And so many men and women in these instances will choose the aspect of foreclosure. They'll an affair will happen.
00:54:02
Speaker
They're on the brink of understanding certain parts of who they are. And one of them drops a bomb on the relationship to just siphon everything up and out of preservation, they just foreclose again, Hey, we're not going to have this conversation.
00:54:18
Speaker
Um, You know, it's just, it's it's not healthy to do. And, you know, we we have to go back and live and our life. And again, the reason why that's not helpful is because um it just doesn't last very long.
00:54:33
Speaker
You know, like you can't, you can't suppress. And i I would just say that, unfortunately, both the men and the women in these situations, and unfortunately, show signs of of mental health conditions like anxiety and depression, anxiety.
00:54:47
Speaker
at that point. And so, you know, those camps are are not recommended because one, it's not my place as a ah couples counselor to determine that for the couple.
00:54:58
Speaker
You know, ultimately, it's my job as a couples counselor to be informed about sexuality and to understand that if it's possible,
00:55:11
Speaker
then there is gonna have to be a restructuring of a relationship. And i i use this example with, you know, my the couples that I work with, because i there has to be some form of acceptance that like, you know, if you are going to decide to move forward, whether you stay together or you don't, your relationship is not going to look the same.
00:55:34
Speaker
It's just not. And again, they spend so much time trying to put where they're at back into one of those but boxes or at those camps. And and again, i use this metaphor of like it's kind of a terminal condition, you know, and I know that's so negative to say, but like it's the only really true way that I can get the couple to accept that, like there's there's there's not.
00:55:59
Speaker
a way to bargain and and change and fix what what's been lost that's been lost and you have to move forward. And the way that you move forward again, whether you stay together or you don't, you have to navigate the relationship boundaries.
00:56:11
Speaker
Some some couples will include opening their relationship, which is is a positive and healthy way. Some couples will, you know, give certain permissions and you know, the spouses will accommodate the the gayness or the bi-ness or the the queerness in the relationship. but But that has to be on the forefront of what goes on.
00:56:39
Speaker
Because, you know, the the husband is it is is just struggling now and trying to now go back in the closet, it it's just it's just too difficult. You're you're not going be able to do it. So you know you have to be flexible enough to open up your mind to say like, oh, okay, um we can't go back. So what's our next option? And the next option, again, is you have to talk about what's going to be permissible in the relationship because most of the time,
00:57:09
Speaker
ah you know, especially for gay men, a there's there's an unlikely nature of them only ever being satisfied with only having sex with their wife again. And I know that seems very prescriptive, but I want to just embody that, like, it's just rare for a man to have sex with a woman then go and have a sex with a man and then come back to having sex with a ah woman which again is very true sense of of bisexuality that's much more common in women it's not impossible it's just not as common and
00:57:47
Speaker
And so, you know, again, those those desires, those attractions and those forms of expressions are still going to be present. And even if we do really, truly consider this as a man who has experienced in bisexuality, if you put your relationship back in a heteronormative environment, you reinforce things like bi erasure, you know, and this is a common experience for bisexual individuals who, you know, are partnered with an opposite sex partner. They they they feel like their queerness or their same sex um ah Parts are, again, get gets forget forgotten or overlooked. And again, it's the same way that happens for for for men in mixed orientation relationships.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Interesting. I wish we had another hour to go into that because it's fascinating. And it is like, it's important to know it's like, yeah, there may be some bi men probably who then can be comfortable with monogamy, but they're not going back into the closet. They're expressing their sexuality within the marriage in some way. But it's also really important for people to hear that. Like, yeah, yeah.
00:58:52
Speaker
if it's a gay-identified man, and even like many, many bi-identified men, like negotiating the boundaries and exploring some form of non-monogamy is going to be pretty common. And at least having that conversation and figuring it out and seeing where you both are is going to be necessary. So I'm glad you brought that up. That's just what often happens and is something people have to navigate.
00:59:19
Speaker
and If I could just paint a context for your listeners, that's months, years, some of the times of of processing, you know, and like, I just would say if like, you know, you have listeners that are at the beginning stages of this, like,
00:59:35
Speaker
we we got to deal with the panic that you're going through. We got to, we got to get you to a calm, collected place and get you supported. Because again, most of my work is spending time in that where like, and we just don't rattle the cage too much and people leave and hurt feelings and, you know, say the most unfathomable things to each other. um You
Conclusion and Credits
00:59:57
Speaker
know, like if you're at that point, like,
01:00:00
Speaker
Hold on. You know, like navigating relationship boundaries is something that happens professionally way down the line, you know, and, uh, and, and don't be pressured to figure all those things out by yourself. Go, go seek a professional to do that.
01:00:14
Speaker
That's important to hear. And it's important for the guys too. It's like, they're out, they want to go explore now. And it's like, Okay, yeah we get it. you know That may be true and it may be what you know is coming down the road, but like navigating it during that time of great tension and change and confusion is probably not the best thing. you know Navigate that period and then and then you can explore potential non-monogamy. Yeah.
01:00:43
Speaker
which some some guys can, some guys can't, but right right and again, that that's just some couples that don't have the ability to navigate that. They, you know, they just, they struggle and it's it's really stressful for them. So anyways. Makes sense.
01:00:57
Speaker
Well, we could go on and on, but i have a client. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Joshua Gebhardt. This was really fascinating. there's There's just so many people going through this experience in various forms. And thank you for your work, the dissertation, and your continued work. It's really necessary. And thanks for being here.
01:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, thanks. Thanks again for letting be here on the podcast and share my experience and my work. I really appreciate that.
01:01:29
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash robertbrookscohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit robertbrookscohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.
01:01:57
Speaker
you