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Detoxing and Resetting with Mike Joseph
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Welcome to Season 9 of Two Bi Guys! I’m trying some new things this season, including a super-sized episode all at once instead of split into two! This week I had the pleasure of chatting with Mike Joseph of the Detoxicity podcast for a crossover episode on mental health, queerness, and psychedelic therapies. You’ll hear Mike’s story about navigating his own queerness as he grew up in the 80s as well as his insightful thoughts on what men really need in our current climate. After that, we discussed Mike’s journey with ketamine as well as my recent plant medicine work. Enjoy!
Mike’s website: https://www.mike-joseph.com/
Follow Mike on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikejosephcoaching/
Detoxicity podcast: https://detoxpod.podbean.com/
The Detoxicity episode Rob was on in Dec 2023: https://detoxpod.podbean.com/e/detoxpod-153-robert-brooks-cohen-screenwriterauthor/
Radiolab episode about neuroplasticity: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab/id152249110?i=1000676210394
Rob’s website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/
Rob’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/robertbrookscohen
Free 30-minute coaching session with Rob (extended through end of Feb 2025): https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/meeting-with-rob
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello
Introducing the New Season
00:00:12
Speaker
everybody! Welcome to a new season of Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy. I am that One Bye Guy. I am Rob Cohen. It's great to be back with a new season.
00:00:23
Speaker
what a year 2024 was and what a year 2025 is shaping up to be. Lots to talk about. We'll get into it all season. We'll, as always, be talking about sexuality and relationships, but I'm also hoping to expand this podcast a little more into other topics and subjects this year that I'm interested in and just go with the flow and follow.
00:00:49
Speaker
my interests and some of your interests, I assume, personally getting into more spiritual spaces in my life, both religious and with plant medicine, which I'll talk about today on the show, plus just other aspects of mental and physical wellness.
Flexible Scheduling and New Interests
00:01:06
Speaker
I'll probably talk more about my coaching practice as I have been for the past year. So thanks for being here. Thanks for listening and coming back.
00:01:14
Speaker
slightly new this year. I'm not going to be on a strict schedule. At least we'll see how that goes. I don't even know what day it is that you're listening to this. I know when I'm recording it, but I don't know when I'll put it out. In the past, we've been every week or we've been every other week or we've done different things. This year, I'm going to try to put out the same number of episodes as usual, but just whenever they're in flow, whenever it feels right, whenever I have the capacity to do it. I'm sure that I will, but the strict schedule just was starting to not feel exactly right for me. So we'll see how this goes. Let me know what you think. Today
Interview with Mike Joseph on Masculinity and Plant Medicine
00:01:54
Speaker
I have a very interesting interview with my friend Mike Joseph. He hosts a podcast called Detoxicity, and I was on his podcast a year or two ago. We had a lovely conversation and And then recently he posted something about psychedelics and ketamine and plant medicine and some things he was exploring. And for him, it felt related to the topics he talks about in his podcast, masculinity, spaces for men.
00:02:21
Speaker
gender, sexuality, a lot of very similar things that we talk about here. ah aware There's a lot of crossover. And I reached out to him right away because I have been on that journey for the past six to eight months with plant medicine, and it really has felt, for me, very connected with my queerness, with coming out.
00:02:41
Speaker
with getting in touch with my authentic self. Also weirdly connected, not weirdly, makes sense that it's connected to my Judaism, my spirituality. We didn't so much go into it in this episode, but I'm sure I will. But I was always very interested in mystical Judaism, the Kabbalah, and those types of thinkers. And now I'm finally understanding why, because the plant medicine feels very connected and it's really resonating with me and affecting me. It also reminds me of Nana's story from my book and also on the podcast. He was here two seasons ago and he talked a lot about mystical religions and mystical spirituality and he was getting into that as he was coming out and recognizing his queerness
00:03:28
Speaker
There's definitely some connection and overlap there that I want to explore more this season. But today you'll meet Mike Joseph. You'll hear a little of his story. We did a kind of a weird thing where we recorded sort of for his podcast, but also for this one, we're going to use much of the same content as the bulk of this episode for both of us. It's a crossover episode. And then at the end, I kind of introduced Mike and ah gave him a chance to tell his story a little. You're going to hear that part first, even though we recorded it last. So you'll get the introduction to Mike and hear his story. And then we get into the psychedelic plant medicine conversation and some lots of great stuff that came out of it. so
00:04:11
Speaker
Stay tuned in a moment for that. No major announcements about my coaching practice yet. There are still a few things in the works that I hope to be announcing soon, but not quite yet, so stay tuned.
Support and Coaching Offers
00:04:22
Speaker
In the meantime, I do still have a handful of slots open for individual coaching, so you can sign up for a free intro call with me on my website, robertbrookscohen.com slash coaching. And as I put on social media, if anyone is feeling affected by the California wildfires or climate change in general or politics in general or really anything stressing you out this January. I'm offering a free 30-minute coaching session for the rest of the month of January, so hopefully you still have at least a week whenever this comes out to take advantage of that. You can find the link for that on my link tree in my social media bios.
00:05:00
Speaker
Please don't hesitate to sign up. You don't have to have been directly impacted by the wildfires to take advantage of that. Whatever is coming up for you, if you want to process anything, come, let's do a 30 minute session. You'd be surprised how much you can process in 30 minutes. It also lays the groundwork for more processing to occur after a session. That's what I tell my clients is like, a lot of work happens in a session.
00:05:25
Speaker
but sometimes the deepest work happens between sessions. It kicks up certain ideas and then they float around and new awareness and insights come after a session often. So feel free to sign up for that. I am doing okay after the wildfires. Thank you to everyone who has checked in on me. I was like, my apartment is between the two wildfires, the two big ones, but thankfully far enough from them that I wasn't directly impacted. I didn't have to evacuate, but it was a scary couple of nights last week and I housed someone who was evacuated. My partner had to leave her um home and come with me. She lost power. It was definitely scary and who knows when this will happen again. We know it will. We just don't know when.
00:06:13
Speaker
So kind of scary, lots to unpack, but I'm okay. Thank you for checking on me. Really the past few months, I've just been very trying to be in touch with myself.
Ayahuasca Experiences and Spiritual Insights
00:06:23
Speaker
The ayahuasca experience was really amazing and transformative. I went through that in November. I talk about it in this episode with Mike and my conversation, so you'll hear a little bit of what it was like, and I'm sure you'll hear a lot more over the next few months slash the rest of my life, because I can't stop talking about it. I can't stop thinking about it.
00:06:42
Speaker
But it really has helped me kind of slow down a little, stay in touch with myself instead of getting caught up in the stories of modern life and to really stay in touch with this connection with the universe and with nature and with the energy around me and the spirit of the plants. um I know I sound like a crazy person a little bit, but it feels real.
00:07:09
Speaker
And all the work I did leading up to this therapy for many years, coming out, going to buy groups and poly groups and being in community, all of those things helped me align myself leading up to this plant medicine journey. And the plant medicine journey has been the better for all of that work over the last 10 or so years. It's all related. It's all the same thing, and it's about living in alignment. The plant medicine is really just a big catalyst, but it feels very connected to my coaching work. It feels very connected to the journey I've been on. So it's been a really nice few months for me, and I look forward to sharing more of it.
Endorsements and Listener Engagement
00:07:53
Speaker
One other thing that's been a part of my mental care routine has been Magic Mind.
00:07:59
Speaker
I mentioned it at the end of last season and I've been drinking that shot of Magic Mind every morning pretty much since then. Still really feeling the effects. It's been really great in terms of just stabilizing my mood, giving me some clarity, giving me like focus.
00:08:16
Speaker
I haven't cut out coffee. It's not a replacement for caffeine, but I do find myself drinking less coffee because the Magic Men helps time release it. So instead of like a big punch in the morning, drinking five cups at once, I'm able to just have a little bit at a time. It feels like a smooth day. There's no huge up and no huge crash later. And the longer I've spent taking Magic Mind, the smoother I feel and the more I can feel it working. I've really been focusing on things like sleep and rest, ah diet and and understanding what I eat and trying to eat naturally, um stress level, exercise. All of these have been a focus and the Magic Mind has definitely helped me.
00:09:02
Speaker
have that focus and clarity and stick with those routines. Now, Magic Mind has two products that they're bundling. They have the focus shots, which is what I've been taking, and also these new sleep shots that will help you wind down at night. They have something now called the 24 hours pack. It's the focus and sleep shots bundled together for the first time. And you can get 45% off. You can go to magicmind dot.com slash by guys, Jan B I G U I S J a n as in January. This is a special offer for January. You get 45% off the bundle. The link is in the show notes. You can find it there. And as I've said before, there's lots of different kinds of mushrooms in there in this Magic Mind compound, and mushrooms are
00:09:49
Speaker
one of our huge plant allies, we couldn't live on this earth without them. The fungi is coming in as the fire recedes and they're going to help purify the land and make sure new things can grow and that's what mushrooms can often do inside of us both physically and mentally.
00:10:07
Speaker
And there's lots of different types of mushrooms. Magic Mind has a few of them. We love you, mushrooms. So thank you. And give Magic Mind a shot. There's no better time to start than now. Make 2025 the year you build your mental resilience. 45% off the bundle of focus and sleep shots at magicmind dot.com slash bye, guys. Jan, link is in the show notes. Check it out. That is all I got for now. Next episode will happen when it happens.
00:10:36
Speaker
If you have any suggestions of topics, feel free to write to me on social media. If you have guests you want to see on this show, I have a long list, but I'm always happy to add to it. I've got a few lined up for the next few episodes, but I have some spots available this season. Let me know what you want to hear about and who you want to hear from. And now please enjoy this slightly out of
00:11:13
Speaker
everybody. Welcome to Two Bye, guys. Welcome back.
Crossover Episode with Mike Joseph
00:11:16
Speaker
It's a new season. We're trying some new things. But we're here with an old friend. He's new to this podcast, although I appeared on his podcast last maybe two years ago. It's called Detoxicity. He hosts and produces it. He is also a life coach like me, a mental health and sexuality educator, a music executive,
00:11:40
Speaker
slash record nerd. Welcome to two bye guys, Mike Joseph. um Thank you for having me, Rob. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. So exciting to have you on this pie, I guess. So we're trying something new today, which is a crossover episode. Yeah.
00:11:56
Speaker
We already recorded it and now you're hearing it out of order. So we're gonna get to introduce Mike a little and then you'll hear the crossover episode that will be on both pods where we really got into some plant medicine stuff since we connected over that online recently. So stay tuned for that. But Mike, welcome. Why don't you tell us a little more about yourself and your podcast and how how and why are we connected. take it Sure. Thank you. um So ah detoxicity came about in early 2020. It was my New Year's resolution for 2020 actually to create this podcast. And it came together as a result of the work that I've been doing in the mental health arena, talking about my experiences with depression and anxiety, post traumatic stress, hospitalizations, like all that sort of stuff. And also,
00:12:54
Speaker
For a while, I was a cohost of a podcast called Life on the Swing Set, in which I discussed swinging and polyamory and ah you know my sexuality and sort of the evolution of that. And you know sort of on a tertiary level, I was also a member of a men's group here in New York City.
00:13:14
Speaker
um and I kind of just put all those three things together and was like, this is something that people want to talk about. People want to talk about masculinity. They want to talk about how it relates to sexuality. They want to talk about how it relates to physical health, mental health, family relationships, aging, all that stuff. I have a background in radio. I've done podcasts before. Why don't I just start a podcast?
00:13:38
Speaker
and And I was like, well, how the fuck do I find people? Um, and the initial plan was to, you know, buy a little dictaphone, a little tape recorder and run around New York city and record people, which is how detoxicity started in in January and February of 2020. Perfect time to start. Right. And then March, 2020 happened and I was like, Oh, we need to go back to the drawing board.
00:14:06
Speaker
um And that led to it you know me expanding my network out to people who were not in New York City. um And since then, you know we've recorded almost 200 episodes. I've spoken to people from all across the country. I've spoken to people in Canada. I've spoken to people in England. I have recorded an episode at a swingers resort. I have done all sorts of different things.
00:14:33
Speaker
Um, with the podcast and, uh, you know, it it is, it is my baby. It is, uh, still very much a labor of love. I think we've really only scratched the surface. I think this, uh, podcast with this topic is needed now, maybe more than ever. yeah Um, and, uh, you know, I really just hope to keep it going. Um, as long as people are willing to talk, I'm willing to listen. Cool.
00:14:55
Speaker
I love it. Everyone should go check out Detoxicity. I'll put the link in the show notes. And like, it's interesting. I mean, we've interviewed different people, we we don't talk about all the same things, but there's definitely a lot of overlap. Yeah, there's a lot of overlap. To by guys and and what you just mentioned, because we started with like bisexuality, but very quickly it turned into masculinity and relationship styles and mental health because it's all so interrelated. It is so intertwined. Absolutely. You know, they don't exist without the other things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and you you said people will hear this at the end, but you just said, as we were wrapping up our other recording, you're sort of a bi guy. So tell us what what did you mean by that and how how do you identify and how's that related to your masculinity?
00:15:44
Speaker
You know, I identify as queer. Um, I, most of my, uh, most of my sexual relationships and pretty much all of my ah romantic relationships have been with women or with men. I'm sorry. Um, i was like wait had have been there for and um you know,
00:16:03
Speaker
I, gay. feels a little limiting um because it doesn't represent the totality of my experience. It probably won't represent my future experience. um you know And I just think queer is the best identifier, even though you know as I've gotten older,
00:16:25
Speaker
and queer people have gotten younger. um I don't even know if that feels like the best descriptor anymore because I think young people use queer more to describe gender than they do to describe sexuality.
00:16:37
Speaker
and you know i've always felt like a pretty cisgender guy. I've never really had issues you know or any sort of dysphoria um about being a man. um So I don't know. I don't know what to call myself. I'm you know a work in progress. you know That's kind of an evolving human.
00:16:56
Speaker
Interesting. Same with me. i've but I've always felt like a cisgender man and yet, yeah and I feel like my place in this is like, push the boundaries of what does that mean? And what can, how can cisgender men present themselves and and act? um
Exploring Queer Identity
00:17:11
Speaker
But yeah, it's interesting the queerness, done you know, being about sexuality or about gender or about both like and how younger kids are using it slightly differently that so I think somebody now I'm gonna get this wrong but somebody on last season said that they identify their oh what was it it's like their sexuality is I for I forget what I'm talking
00:17:38
Speaker
What was it? Their gender is is queer? Maybe it's what you just said. There was someone who said something that was connecting those two things that that their sexuality and gender were inherently tied, of which of course makes sense. right I'm spacing this. OK, anyway, moving on. to Tell me like what was your path? like Did you always identify as queer or as gay or as straight? like When did you realize and when did you come out and as as what?
00:18:08
Speaker
Um, I, for a very young age, I knew that I was different. I knew that boys were supposed to fall in love and be interested in girls. Like that's what I was socialized into. And I was, I mean, four or five, uh, you know, when I sort of knew that my interest included, uh,
00:18:38
Speaker
boys, men, whatever. um And I don't know if I was able to articulate that to myself until I was in my late teens. um And I didn't fully come out until I was in my 30s. I, you know,
00:19:02
Speaker
I am a fairly, and this sounds so limiting, like I'm a straight presenting person. um I generally don't, ah you know, most people don't know what my sexuality is until I announce it to them, um which is, I think kind of silly because you don't know what anybody's sexuality is until they tell you, um but people make assumptions based on stereotypes. So, you know, i I'm able to,
00:19:29
Speaker
mask isn't the right word. I'm able to hide in plain sight, basically. And that's always been the case. um But, ah you know, from the time that I was I want to say 18 and started having sexual relationships with other men until I would say I was you know maybe 31, 32 years old. I was sort of situationally in and out of a closet. Certain friends knew that I was queer. ah Certain friends did not. um I was you know in the closet at work. um I was in the closet to my family. I didn't come out to my family until I was maybe 36. So, ah you know,
00:20:12
Speaker
There was a good 20-year period where I was kind of situationally out, situationally in, and now I am completely out. um Like, you know, the closets have been run over by a truck. ah So, you know, it's been a bit of a journey in that regard for sure.
00:20:31
Speaker
Amazing. Cool. I love it. And so like, it's funny you started in 2020. We started at the end of 2019 with Two Bye Guys. and we
Impact of Plant Medicine on Creativity
00:20:41
Speaker
We were in person too at the beginning and then it shifted. ah But this is, I think, episode 80-something of Two Bye Guys. And you're almost at 200. That's amazing. You've done more than double what We've done. I'm very impressed. We were we were going weekly for a while. Wow. um And the first maybe two or three years, we put out an episode every week. And then I was like, this is too much. There's a lot of work. We're asking too much of people who are listening. And then I pulled back to every two weeks. So had I continued to do every week, we'd probably up to like 300 by now.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's a lot. I'm glad you came to the realization that that's too much, because you're making me look bad. um um But yeah, we I've kind of settled down. I'm trying a new thing this year where I'm not on a even on any strict schedule, although we have been on the every other week thing at times. And I try to do like 20 episodes a year. I think that might be my next move. Like I want to get to 200. And then I think once I get to 200, I'm going to start spacing them out a little bit more.
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, that was actually an insight from my plant medicine was just like, you don't have to be so strict about these things. like It'll happen when it happens, do it when it's in flow and the product will be better served. It'll be better for it. Absolutely. That was one of the insights I had is just like, everything will happen when it happens. I'm not going to forget about this podcast. and And people, you know, they'll listen when it shows up and they'll be okay when it doesn't show up. Right. Absolutely. Hopefully you all agree. If you don't, let me know. Send me an angry comment. um last Last, maybe last thing and then we'll we'll get into the plant medicine stuff. But ah
00:22:32
Speaker
what what is What are some of the big things you've learned from hosting your podcast or insights you've received or just what's shifted for you because of hosting this? Men need a safe space. And I think there are some people that feel like, well, the world is a safe space for men. And that is true to a certain extent.
00:22:58
Speaker
But when it comes to exploring vulnerability, when it comes to exploring feelings, when it comes to being sensitive, it there's still a huge block ah for a lot of guys, even the guys that are doing the work or know that they have to do the work, there's still a block. And I feel like it's really important for men to have a safe space with other men.
00:23:25
Speaker
to be able to explore ah things that are going on in their lives, in their brains, in their bodies without fear of judgment, judgment from society, judgment from family, judgment from their partners, you know, that any kind of judgment, like people still want to explore that. And, you know, another thing just that's kind of like ringing in my head right now is that Gen X is so fucked up. i mean You know, I'm i'm I'll be 49 in a couple of months. And, um you know, I am firmly Generation X. And I feel like we got stuck with boomer ideals. And now we're sitting watching Gen Z do all these things with like
00:24:15
Speaker
gender and capitalism and sexuality and have the freedom to push back on these things and explore all these things in a way that I personally, and I don't think a lot of people like me could have even conceived of you know in in the 80s and 90s, thanks to the globalization ah that's occurred because of the internet and the ability to experience different cultures virtually and you know become aware of different perspectives and take all that stuff in. um it's it's just It's a different world for young people now, and I think that
00:24:52
Speaker
people in our generation are a little envious of that. And
Generational Differences in Sexuality
00:24:58
Speaker
those of us who are who are cerebral, those of us who are doing work on ourselves are kind of like, man,
00:25:09
Speaker
what could we have done if we had had the information at a younger age that we have now and weren't encumbered by like kids, mortgages, student debt, all this other stuff that you know we now have to contend with as like you know mature adults. um you know I've said this a couple of times before, the amount of, and maybe this is just because of who I am, but the amount of men that I know between the ages, I would say 35 and 55, who are in, and this ties into this podcast, who are in heteromantic relationships or marriages, who are like, maybe I'm not as straight as I thought I was, um is just mind boggling. And I don't know if maybe I get so much inbound on that because of, you know,
00:26:03
Speaker
because of who I am and what I do. um But it's come up in conversation with six to 10 different friends in the last year. Wow. interesting Interesting. You know, all around the same age. I think it might be because of.
00:26:19
Speaker
what you do and what you the space you create to facilitate like talking about masculinity because it does feel related that like as the options open up as as we understand more and as the younger generation is becoming more comfortable with stuff the options of masculinity are expanding and and the options of sexuality are expanding and like if my beliefs are true that like sexual fluidity is really normal and natural and it's been conditioned out of us. I agree. And there's a huge population under the surface that has not explored this because it's there's so much stigma around it but would in their natural state they would. And so it makes sense that they're telling someone like you that and they feel safe to do that with you because of just what you
00:27:11
Speaker
what you know and what you talk about on your, you know, in your work. Right. And, you know, a big issue around that as well as that HIV and AIDS is not as, you know, it's not a death sentence anymore, the way it was when I was a young person, when I was beginning to explore my sexuality in my late teens and early 20s. And, you know, that was omnipresent, particularly New York City in the early to mid 90s. You know, I you know, one of my first jobs out of high school, my first job at high school is working at a record store. And I would say out of
00:27:46
Speaker
40 to 50 employees there, they were probably like five or six who were HIV positive. um So New York City, ah you know, to be a gay or bisexual man in that environment, you know, it was fraught. um And then if you're getting your news, you know, from just this concentrated amount of of sort of sources, the way that it was in the 90s, you're hearing about all of these people dying, you're watching the real world and seeing Pedro Zamora, and you're you're you're like, Oh, crap, like if I if I want to pursue a relationship or sleep with another guy, not only do I have to worry about the societal stigma and, you know, gay bashing and all this other stuff, but, you know, I got to worry about getting a disease and dying. yeah Like that, I think the fear of that, I think, scared off ah thousands of people who, you know, in 2025 now are like, huh, you know,
00:28:47
Speaker
Maybe I would experiment. Yeah. Yeah. and i'm and And I'm working with many men in that exact boat now who are married and you know a little bit older than me, but many Gen X and who like, yeah, that was unthinkable then and because you could die. And now that it's not, they're like, well, what why? you know This has been something I've thought about. Why not? And it's it's a difficult position to be in, but I'm glad things are shifting. But I have a question. I'm confused. why
00:29:19
Speaker
Why do you think, if Gen Z has all these this new understanding and openness and no fear of death, because we have prep and everything, why do you think they're so fucked up where you started? Oh, I said Gen X is fucked up. Oh, you said Gen X. Oh, OK. misheard that. Oh, OK. So Gen Z is like, get gets all the benefits of this. And it's Gen X that is having to deal with the shift. Right. but Right. Yeah. And I think that there's a fair amount of envy uh there because of the amount of freedom that these young people have to yeah you know the self-awareness and the freedom that they then have to explore themselves um yeah you know and and you know it's it's an interesting thing to live with because i do think that there are a lot of again people in my age range who are kind of like stuck almost
00:30:13
Speaker
You know, and, you know, the eighties and nineties were such a conservative time. I mean, you know, great, you had Prince, ah you know, but it it was still like, you know, that that stuff was very taboo.
00:30:26
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And it and it is it is difficult to to reconcile all that and to actually like move forward and and explore those things if you want to when when you feel like the chance passed you by or you you know people feel like they're too old, but but you're not. You're never too old. You're never too old.
00:30:46
Speaker
that's what I learned going to my first bi discussion group was like there were people in there who didn't come out till their 60s and they were so grateful that they did or or even old like there's people who explore these things even later in life and it's never too late to be to live or to your authentic life absolutely yeah absolutely and I also just want to comment on the the safe space for men where you started like amazing answer and so important and something I've been thinking about a lot, especially after the election because like something is happening that's not good and not working right and people, men especially
00:31:28
Speaker
especially young men moved toward Trump this year, and we don't have to analyze the Trump of it all right now, but there's something missing. There's no safe space for people, or or they're finding what they feel is a safe space with the Joe Rogan's of the world and the Manosphere and the right-wing bloggers and, like,
00:31:51
Speaker
I don't know that that's actually a safe space. It might feel safer in certain ways, but like we do really need these open spaces. You can be yourself and it's been so valuable for me and the plant medicine has really allowed me to be open and vulnerable and connect in a different way and just really get to what's inside and not not feel like you have to fit in, um but you can actually just be yourself. right So I totally agree with.
00:32:22
Speaker
with that. Right. Yeah. You know, like we said, when we were speaking earlier, everybody desires community, everybody needs community, everybody wants community. And I do think that there are some communities that center people who are disenfranchised. um that leave men out, ah specifically white men, um but, you know, men in general as well. And I think as a result of feeling like they don't have a voice, rightly or wrongly, these men have all sort of moved over to the dark side when there was a chance when they could have been saved. And that is such like a delicate line to walk. um And I don't, like, I don't have a solution for that. I have an answer for that.
Creating Safe Spaces
00:33:09
Speaker
But I think it's important to acknowledge that.
00:33:12
Speaker
I don't either, but that's exactly the question I've been asking myself since the election is like, what is that space where we can listen to men and validate men and give them a chance to be to be brought in as opposed to like where they're going, which actually I think is like counter productive and and I mean we could get into this for hours but like it is a tightrope exactly what you said like where is the lane um that like what is it that we need to explore to bring these men into the kind of work
00:33:51
Speaker
we're doing that's free and open and loving, um but right now they're not coming this way. They're being pushed that way. They're being pushed in any direction. And there's many things that liberal progressive queer communities have done to, you know, that inadvertently push them. That wasn't the intention, but it has had the effect of pushing people away and actually I am looking for ways to bring bring them but got back yeah straight men or straight quote back in. Like what are those ways? And I don't know the answer either, but it's exactly the question I think that's on my mind lately. Yeah, cool. Well, um we'll end there for now and we'll transition into our
00:34:53
Speaker
Let's get started. It is really funny that I've been doing this for almost 200 episodes in five years, and I still haven't figured out a good way to reintroduce people who have been on the show before. ha Generally, when someone first appears on the show, I ask them to introduce themselves to the listeners. And and since this is your second time on the show, some people already know who you are.
00:35:20
Speaker
So I don't know. i'd I'd say just reintroduce yourself, Rob. Who are you? Why are you here? Good question. Why is any of us here? Seriously. Well, hello. My name is Rob. Good to see you again. Good to see you again.
00:35:36
Speaker
Um, I, when was I here last, like two years ago or something? It was before the book came out. Okay. Okay. So it was over a year ago, probably year and a half or something. Uh, I, guess I'm here cause like I've had an evolving relationship with masculinity and been learning a lot about what that is and what it means. And we kind of found each other and connected virtually over that. But more specifically, I came out of by around in my early 30s. I'm now in my late 30s, I might be 40 by the time this comes out. Oh, happy early birthday. Yeah, thank you. We'll talk about that. But when I came out as by that felt like it was a big catalyst for reevaluating masculinity and my identity in general. So it's been a journey the last 10 years and I started a podcast called to buy guys um will be will be using this recording on my podcast as well. It's a what do you call it? It's a crossover show.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yes, this is the this is the first official crossover, I think. Nice. I've done collabs, but this is our new experiment of actually doing a two and one. um And yeah, that though those two journeys have felt tied together for me, the the sexuality and the masculinity. So that's a lot what we talked about last time, I think. Right.
00:37:10
Speaker
ah Yeah, right. And since you were here the last time you released a book, I released a book, yes, it's called bisexual married men stories of relationships, acceptance and authenticity. And it's about the specific experience of by men who are married to women, which I don't think is like a more valid or more important experience than others I just think is an extremely common experience that there was nothing about in in the literature. And I would like to write more books about other kinds of bi marriages between men and trans people, like all different things. But that was where I started. And it also just ah it took over a year, but it just came out as an audio book as well. Oh, nice. are yeah I'm assuming you're narrating it.
00:38:03
Speaker
No, you would you would assume that. i I assumed that. But no, they did not want me to narrate it. They have they have a pipeline of books from this publisher that just get farmed out to be read by someone. And i I did not read it. An actor named Daniel Henning read it. I've listened to some of it. And he's great. He's wonderful. um So i'm glad I'm glad it worked out. But yeah, no, it's not me.
00:38:31
Speaker
Wow, that's actually very surprising. Not that I know how audiobooks work at all, but so in the time since your book has been published, you've also done some book tour date kind of things. I know you did gatherings in New York. I attended that and you did one in L.A., which is where you live. That was the first time we met in person. It was the first time we met in person. Yes. First and only, I guess. Yeah. So far. So far. yes Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:59
Speaker
Uh, yeah, thank you for coming to that. That one was fun. We did it at the LGBT center. I did another book event in LA at, uh, book book soup. Was it book soup? Yeah, I think it was book soup. You tell me. she' a Cool, clear bookstore not here.
00:39:15
Speaker
was it book yeah i hope it was book soup but i'm not getting that right it was a year ago i did some virtual events i've done some book groups i did a book group at this virtual group called how which stands for husbands out to wives ah it's for gay and bisexual men who are out to their wives which is an important distinction there yeah there are some bi men who are married to women and they're as as counterintuitive as it might seem, there are gay men who are married to women. And yes, there are two different experiences. Yes, they are. But they're all in the same group. And I spoke to them. So yeah, I've done a handful of book things for the past year. And the book led to my coaching practice. So now I'm coaching by men, many of whom are married to women.
00:40:06
Speaker
Congratulations. Thank you. That's that also started since, you know, after the book came out, I started coaching around March of last year, and it's going really well. And I love it. It's coming very naturally. And yeah, it's been cool. Awesome. I mean, I would ask what's changed for you since the book came out, but it seemed like there was stuff in motion, like the coaching that was already sort of in progress when you released the book. What has been the most interesting observation that you've made in the time since the book has come out?
00:40:44
Speaker
Man. Maybe there are a few. That's a good question. um I guess just like i I kind of knew this would happen but how many people it's resonated with and just like the comments I've gotten that have just been like there was no one telling this story before. like And so many people who connect so specifically with certain stories in the book and how validating it's been for them to hear, oh, there's someone like me. There's another marriage like this. And like you know now I'm working with many of those guys just like,
00:41:28
Speaker
how common many of the struggles are, and and also unique to each person and the ins and outs of it, like, you know, the coaching is very specific to the exact thing that's going on in their lives. And yet, for many people in mixed orientation marriages or just queer relationships in general, how many of the same issues come up? um And yeah, I just see a lot of the same stuff over and over. And it's really complicated stuff. um And yet it's also stuff that that you can work through and you can move forward on. Absolutely.
00:42:09
Speaker
um And in terms of your own journey in the years since you and I first spoke, ah what what has changed? Has anything changed? ah What's different about Rob when I spoke to you a year ago versus Rob as we record this now?
00:42:29
Speaker
Well, the the coaching practice has been really nice to just like get it going and know that I can do it and that I'm finding clients and i'm I feel like um'm we're making progress. I'm really helping them. there They're enjoying it. I'm settling into that. like A year ago, I was kind of that was on the horizon but I didn't know how it would go or if I'd find clients or like would I know what I'm doing and now I feel very like settled and confident and this is something not only I know I can do but it's something I'm really enjoying doing and finding rewarding for me and I learn stuff from my clients every time I meet with them.
00:43:15
Speaker
ah The other like big big thing for me this year has been my plant medicine journey. that start I know this this was sort of the impetus for us to start reconnecting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because you posted something, I think, and I was like, this I'm on this journey as well.
00:43:36
Speaker
Let's talk about it. And it feels very related to masculinity and sexuality. Oh, yeah. But yeah, so i I had always been interested in psychedelics. I tried mushrooms recreationally, smoked marijuana for many years. But I really started like a formal practice in May of 2024, going to these mushroom ceremonies, circles ah in in l LA, where you know you're in a room with 10 to 12 other people, you're all taking kind of a larger dose than what you might do recreationally.
00:44:14
Speaker
We sing songs, I'll tell you more about it, but you know, we sing songs, it's very intentional. We do like, it's work, it's healing work. It's not just for fun. And I've done a bunch of those and then in November of 24, I sat with ayahuasca for a weekend. We did three sits and that was a really profound spiritual experience. And all of that plant medicine work feels like it's a big,
00:44:42
Speaker
shift in my life and it's like not not necessarily changing how I see everything, but almost more confirming it and I'm feeling it more in my body and we can we can get into it, but that's the big thing is the plant medicine. Okay. Yeah. So
Stand-up Comedy and Bi Themes
00:45:05
Speaker
my knowledge of this stuff is I would say relatively minimal, right? Like I know about Ayahuasca, honestly, because Will Smith talked about it in his ah in his memoir. Oh, I didn't know that. Interesting. yeah
00:45:24
Speaker
And that was the first time I had heard of ayahuasca. um Our mutual acquaintance, Dave Holmes, also talks about having a plant medicine experience. He didn't specify, although I assume it was shrooms-based, but he writes about that in his biography as well. Interesting.
00:45:44
Speaker
um i my drug experience, and it's so weird because people are like, oh, you work in the music business and you know you live in New York, you have to have had more drug experience than you have. And I'm like, no, to be perfectly honest with you. um you know I smoked weed intermittently for the last 30 years. um And I dropped acid once. And ah I very recently, um this past December, started doing ketamine therapy.
00:46:16
Speaker
ah um so you know So you know our experiences are not with the same drug, essentially, yeah but we are both using these things for therapeutic purposes. um And i I felt like getting you back on here, we could maybe just sort of like share what the experience has been like and what it has done for us in terms of our journeys.
00:46:44
Speaker
Absolutely. And I'm so curious about that. And in the plant in ah in the plant medicine world, we don't call them drugs, we call it medicine. Sure. Because apparently plant medicine makes us sanctimonious and pedantic about it.
00:47:00
Speaker
um I'm also writing some stand up about my ayahuasca experience. Right on. Gotta mine everything for content these days. There you go. And to put a pin in that, we should also talk about you becoming a stand-up comic. Yeah, that's actually that's a new thing too. Yeah. A lot of new shit, Rob.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of new stuff. it It all feels like it's part of the same mission and and like purpose, but yes, it is like new things that are coming in. Yeah. Right.
00:47:36
Speaker
But yeah, I started stand up. I took a class last year from January to like March, and then I performed for the first time in April, talked about a lot of bi stuff and a lot of gay sex stuff and I did a whole set about male masturbation parties one time.
00:47:52
Speaker
that really shocked the straight people. I bet. Yeah, that's the stand up has been really fun and just like a joy to actually write stuff and perform it and get it out there instead of like spending five years writing something that nobody ever reads. Sure. Yeah. So but I'm curious. I'm curious. I kind of want to hear you go first, especially since it sounds like you did this before I did the the LSD or the acid like. Yeah.
00:48:20
Speaker
because that's very related to ayahuasca i'm learning even though they're different they're very related so my understanding my understanding is that ayahuasca is way more intense than lsd is um i so the time i dropped acid that would have been i'm doing math in my head like 12 years ago okay um and the person that i was seeing at the time was, ah you know, if on the drug scale I was i a rookie, this guy was a seasoned veteran of drugs. And, um you know, it dropped acid a bunch of times, sort of like a hippie-ish kind of dude. And, um you know, it it was something that I thought about for a while and I had the access. So I was like,
00:49:15
Speaker
I feel safe enough to do this. Let's do it. And, ah you know, we came over on a Sunday afternoon and, you know, we popped open a beer, we smoked a little bit of weed and then, you know, he put the little tab on my tongue and we sat on the couch and we started watching TV and I started tripping balls.
00:49:35
Speaker
yeah Um, it was not entirely unpleasant. Um, I will say, but mostly unpleasant oh no, actually it was mostly pleasant. I enjoy it. Uh, the one thing, this feels like a rookie mistake. Uh, my phone rang and I answered it and it turned out to be a friend that I had recently done an intervention on and helped put in rehab.
00:50:06
Speaker
calling from rehab. wow So I'm two, maybe three hours into an acid trip out of my fucking mind and have to pull myself back to what I can only assume was the normal undrugged version of me to have this conversation and then go back into the trip. um So that was,
00:50:37
Speaker
Not intelligent. um yeah Right. Yeah. quick mistake no offense Right. But I did it for your phone away. Yeah. um And then, you know, we tripped for a little while longer. or Well, I tripped for a lot while longer. And, you know, my my partner at the time got hungry. We ordered a pizza. We eat the pizza. Maybe an hour after that. He's like, you're good. I'm going to drive home. And He drove home. And maybe 15 minutes after he drove home, I was like, feels so good. And the pizza left my body and ended up all over my apartment. Oh, shit.
00:51:22
Speaker
um And I didn't I told I well, two things about that. One, I was still tripping the next day. Like I went to therapy the next day and I was still like not fully out of my trip. Wow. um And the other thing is that I remember telling this guy about it the next day and I was like, dude, I threw up all over the place. He was like, are you sure you're not imagining that? I'm like, there is cake up paper towels with like vomit in my bathroom right now.
00:51:53
Speaker
It can only have come from one place. Like I'm not imagining this at all. um So I gave the impression of apparently of seeming totally fine. But yeah, I mean, it was an interesting experience. It was pretty intense.
00:52:09
Speaker
um i Not fully sure that I would repeat that level of intensity. I certainly am never going to eat a pizza in the middle of a drunk. Like that is that sounds like a smart idea. Yeah. Yeah. But that was that was my one. And up until, you know, a month and a half ago, only experience with any sort of psychedelic trip inducing type of drug.
00:52:34
Speaker
Uh-huh. Yeah, interesting. And I mean, yeah, I'll i'll compare that to the ayahuasca in in a moment. i Because we didn't need anything like for hours beforehand. And then from the moment we drank it, I think there was probably six or seven hours And then as we're finally like coming out of it, then then we all had a meal. um what So like what did you gain any in insight? Before you purged, did you gain any insights? Or like what what how did you change from this experience besides not wanting to have that kind of a trip again? I don't know that that particular experience changed very much.
00:53:20
Speaker
ah It was that was maybe more of like a funsies. Yeah, in ah where is the ketamine was 100% done with the intention of being therapeutic. Okay, this was just like a cool let's trip and see what happens type thing.
00:53:37
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. So it's so, yeah. Well, what's so tall is about the Academy and then what was that? I
Therapeutic Use of Ketamine
00:53:43
Speaker
mean, much, different much different experience, same amount of vomit.
00:53:50
Speaker
Um, it's, you know, I had been in therapy for a really long time and I have taken over the course of the last 17 or 18 years, probably 12 different SSRIs.
00:54:05
Speaker
um Like you I actually went on Wikipedia once and looked at ah the page that they have for antidepressants and checked like 13 things off the list that I had taken. Some of them more than once. um And antidepressants historically either give me a flat effect or they make me really drowsy, tired, sleepy, whatever. Or they give, they,
00:54:34
Speaker
ah Crash my libido, um give me severe erectile dysfunction. There's always something wrong with an antidepressant that I take. Or they just don't work. um So I've been through the ringer on that stuff. ah After November 5th, I had a pretty big emotional crash.
00:54:55
Speaker
And I was basically like, why? What happened on November 5th? That would cause emotions. I don't remember. Imagine, imagine. on And, you know, I was in a pretty low place. And my therapist was like,
00:55:12
Speaker
Hey, have you ever thought of doing ketamine therapy? And I was like, actually, yes, I've thought about it. um A few friends of mine have done it. They say it did really good things for them. My understanding is that it is prohibitively expensive. um And my therapist was like, you know what?
00:55:31
Speaker
let me do some research for you and I will talk to your psychiatrist and we're going to figure something out. So he talked to my psychiatrist and he talked to my general practitioner. um Both all three together agreed that ketamine therapy was a good option. um My psychiatrist sent me a list of places ah in New York City that offered ketamine therapy.
00:55:56
Speaker
Um, one thing I didn't know is that ketamine therapy is partially accepted by some insurance. Yeah. Um, and I basically, you know, I had a couple of consultations signed up for it. Um, and.
00:56:15
Speaker
You know, the initial sort of batch of it was four sessions in two weeks. Well, five sessions, it was an initial meeting with with the doctor. Um, and the person that runs this particular clinic is a licensed yeah ER doctor, you know, has his shit down pat. And basically what they do is, you know, they screen you.
00:56:40
Speaker
Um, make sure that you are not at risk for like psychosis or anything that, you know, the ketamine is going to activating you. Um, and you go in for the first session. Uh, it's a little, it's a little woo woo. Um, there is like aromatherapy and you know, they, uh, they sensory deprive you. They put a blindfold over you or a face mask.
00:57:04
Speaker
and they put headphones on you, um playing, you know, they give you an option of, you know, nature sounds or like new agey kind of music or that kind of thing. i They hit you up to an IV. oh um And they administer ketamine to you and you lay back and you trip balls for an hour. Just one hour. Yeah, it's ah it's the sessions are all 90 minutes. So it's 50 minutes of the initial sort of like,
00:57:34
Speaker
Excuse me, get you situated, sit down, like choose yourcent choose your music, like blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. And then the last 15 minutes, you have to sort of reorient yourself because I, I can't speak for everybody, but when I came out of the trip, I was pretty woozy. um So it's like 15 minutes on the front, 15 minutes on the back, and then an hour for the actual treatment part of it.
00:57:59
Speaker
okay Yeah, yeah. um So it was four sessions. um The last one was right before Christmas. um And, you know, what they recommend is working with them to figure out a sequence in which you go back periodically and sort of get topped up because like every antidepressant, ketamine wears off over time, your symptoms can reoccur. um It's just a matter of figuring out the the frequency with which they reoccur and getting on a schedule of you know administration of the the ketamine to counteract that. So I actually have my next appointment next week.
00:58:44
Speaker
Cool, cool. yeah So like what what came up for you during those four or five hours? like what What was going through your mind when you're in it? A lot of people.
00:58:59
Speaker
um i like The two things I can definitively say, one is that ah for the duration of almost every single session, I was in motion.
00:59:13
Speaker
Um, like I was driving something or riding something or like in charge of operating a vehicle that was moving forward, um, through the entire thing. Like there was no stillness, I guess you would call it. Yeah, yeah there was no pause. Um, which resulted in me getting motion sickness. Um, hence more throwing up. Um,
00:59:37
Speaker
And I ended up taking some anti-nausea medication before that actually helped out. but um that's That's interesting, just to like so I don't forget it. Someone in my ayahuasca journey said she felt like she was flying. And she when she got sick, because that often happens on ayahuasca, it felt to her like altitude sickness, which is interesting that yours felt like motion sickness, even though both of you were just sitting there. Sitting there, laying there, yeah.
01:00:06
Speaker
It's interesting. Flying as in she herself was flying like a bird or like in a plane as a passenger in like a plane. Oh, I don't remember. I don't remember if she said or if I just can't remember. But she said she felt like she was being transnce like taken to the stratosphere and she wasn't like ready. And as she was acclimating to the altitude, that was when she got sick.
01:00:36
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah, I felt like I was operating a vehicle, either a car, a plane or a spaceship um through pretty much all of my trips. So I remember that. And then it was just sort of a parade of humans that have been in my life at various times, people that I had not thought of in decades, like I went on an eighth grade trip to Washington, DC. And this is the summer of 1988.
01:01:10
Speaker
eight And this is somebody that I had not thought of in 25 years, 30 years, that whose name popped back into my head. um And it was just like, you know, I remember early in one trip,
01:01:31
Speaker
seeing like a bunch of people I know kind of like gathered around me and thinking like, wow, this many people or this amount of people only really shows up for you if you're about to die. And they were like, no, you're not going to die, but we're here to take this journey with you.
01:01:47
Speaker
Um, and that was really profound. Um, I used, uh, my partner as a grounding device. So whenever I sort of felt like I was out of control, I would either picture his hand and like grab onto it, or I would like wiggle my toes and like wiggle my fingers just to like feel like I was standing on something. And that would sort of serve as a grounding device. Um,
01:02:14
Speaker
I wrote down a shit ton of stuff um that I haven't really looked over since, and I should probably do that. um The last session, um I felt like I was mouthing words a lot. And then after it, the nurse that was on D was like, nah, dude, you were talking.
01:02:34
Speaker
Um, so apparently I was a chatty Kathy, uh, during the last session. She was like, you brought up Michael Jackson a lot. Like what was that about? And I just, there was, a I think there was like music playing, uh, in my head or I was transporting myself onto like music video backgrounds or something like that. Um, and you know, so that happened, but it was a really interesting series of experiences.
01:03:03
Speaker
And again, just like the amount, you know the the things that were unlocked that I hadn't thought of in 15, 20, 25, 30 years, names that i had but hadn't been in my head since I was a kid, yeah just kind of all popped back into my head.
01:03:20
Speaker
Wow. And I like that metaphor of like they're on this journey with you, but like, I mean, really that's life. Like yeah you're going through life and there's all these people then that are on this journey with you. If you think about it that way, that right that's kind of a nice metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there wasn't, yeah, i like there wasn't a lot of.
01:03:47
Speaker
like negativity to the experiences. Uh, anytime someone would pop up in my thought process that, uh, was someone that I had like a contentious relationship with or someone that had brought me, you know, stress or pain, like I would actually like see my hand pushing them away. Hmm. Hmm.
01:04:11
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. So it was very much it was very much a positive experience. Almost like seeing yourself setting a boundary. boundary without ah I don't know. if maybe it Did it feel like you were doing it or you were just watching that happen? I know. It felt like I was actually like pushing them away. You were doing it. Yeah. yeah And how did you know? to do Did you like choose it or did it just happen?
01:04:37
Speaker
That I can't really tell you. I don't know how voluntary my movements were. I feel like it was a conscious decision of this thing. This is like a bad thought. This is someone that's bad for you. Get them out of the picture. Focus on the good stuff. That kind of thing. Yeah, that's cool. Wow. And how did all this affect like your mental health, your the exact whatever was going on November 5th? Like what what's it like on the other side of it?
01:05:06
Speaker
You know, it's been it's been about three weeks since my most recent session. um I got through the holidays in better spirits than I had experienced during any holiday season in recent memory. um You know, the holidays are generally a stressful time for me. um You know,
01:05:34
Speaker
i you know, I have a pretty contentious relationship with members of my family. um You know, there's some loneliness that creeps in. But you know, I had two weeks off from work, and it filled up that time really well, prioritize time with people that I care about, um minimize my time with people that, you know, can be sort of a drain on me. um So I think that there are definitely some long-lasting effects. um I definitely feel like it's faded a little bit. I think you know my my anxiety ah has been higher than normal the last few days. um But that's also kind of like getting going back into work, um you know certainly being conscious of current events and upcoming events. um yeah And you know the the guy that manages the clinic, the doctor, was like, look,
01:06:27
Speaker
This isn't a cure. This isn't going to get rid of your depression. It's not going to get rid of your anxiety, but hopefully, um, and one thing ketamine is supposed to do is sort of like, uh, stimulate your neuroplasticity so that you're able to utilize coping strategies that maybe you'd been resistant to before.
01:06:51
Speaker
um And he said, what this is supposed to do is to you know give you different ways of hopefully coping with and dealing with the stress that you know you encounter. And I feel again, I feel like so far that has been the case. um you know One specific thing I've noticed is that I tend to stew. When something bothers me,
01:07:19
Speaker
I can't brush it off. It'll stay with me for hours, days, weeks, months, whatever. um I have been a lot more... Things have been going away a little bit easier or a lot easier in some cases, where something will annoy me and then 10 minutes later I'll have moved on to the next thing in a way that I was not able to before.
01:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, letting things pass by and let go and flow through. yeah it's What you said makes sense because also like my experience is like it's not like plant medicine fixes everything and you're healed instantly just by sipping it.
01:07:59
Speaker
it what it really does is gives you like ah a reset like a mental and physical reset and I was listening to a radio lab episode about psychedelics and LSD and stuff and a lot of the research is telling us that like it induces a state that's childlike in terms of the ability to form new connections in the brain and learn things that actually like the way like children can learn a language easier like because like that's what this kind of medicine does is it gives you that kind of fresh clean slate to learn new things and so I've been really focused and intentional about trying to like notice that and push myself the way I want to go because it's not like
01:08:55
Speaker
ah everything is solved from taking the medicine, it's like, no, okay, it's giving you an opportunity to address things differently and to chart your path forward. So the time after the medicine is really ah almost as important, if not more important than the journey itself. Right, right, exactly. And, you know, I've been wondering whether Like it's like how, okay. How much of an impression is the medicine making because this happened at the same time that I was looking, you know, looking at two weeks off from work and kind of like a holiday reset. And I've been deliberate about like going to the gym more regularly and meditating more regularly. And I'm putting all of these things in practice at the same time. So it's difficult to attribute any change to like one specific thing, but it probably is all of the things in combination.
01:09:51
Speaker
kind of putting me in ah in a better head. Right, right. And it is all connected. Like for us too, we we had a specific dieta beforehand, so like I'm eating differently. I'm like in a more healthy mindset. i We weren't supposed to drink alcohol or smoke weed for a month before ayahuasca, which was the longest I've ever talked about smoking weed in a while. All right, good for you. And and it really like set me up. And afterwards, i'm like I'm more into meditating. I'm more into just like reflecting and resting and not just like pushing myself so forward. And some of that's because of the insights from the medicine. And some of that's because I met people who do that. And it sounded interesting. So it's
01:10:40
Speaker
it's yeah It all comes together and and the tendrils of the medicine like go into these other
01:11:00
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode of Two Bye, guys. It's good to be back. If you want to help support this podcast, please join my Patreon at patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. There's no bonus material in this episode. I decided to just put everything in the free version because I couldn't decide what to cut. But I do plan on including bonus questions at the end of future interviews this season. And as always, you get full video on Patreon. And I'm recording this part naked right now. So you could be seeing that on Patreon. I don't know if that will encourage people to go there or not, but I just performed in a nude comedy show last night in Los Angeles, so maybe that's why I'm in the mood for this. So come to Patreon, you can see video, plus get early access and bonus content sometimes. I'm also curious what else you guys would like to see on Patreon. I'm thinking about adding some new stuff, so let me know if you're on there. What do you want to see?
01:11:51
Speaker
Also, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I'm offering free 30-minute coaching sessions. I've done a few of those already since I recorded that intro, and they all went so well. I'm really enjoying doing these free 30-minute ones just to give people a taste and to help out and serve the community. So I'm extending that through February. If you've never worked with me before and you want to do an actual coaching session for free,
01:12:15
Speaker
There's a link in the show notes. I'll extend it through February. It's not the same as an intro call. I'm not going to sell you a coaching package. We're not going to talk about what we might do together in the future. We're just going to do 30 minutes of straight coaching on whatever you want to talk about. You can see what it's like in and out. That's it. So check out the show notes for that. Also, Patreon is in the show notes if you want to support this podcast. And now here is the rest of my interview with Mike Joseph. Enjoy.
01:12:48
Speaker
And I wanted to ask you, you know, my experience was very solitary. It was me and a nurse. And, you you know, the nurse was just kind of there to make sure I didn't die. ah youre good i You know, um there wasn't a lot of interaction.
01:13:06
Speaker
in the middle of the experience with anybody else. You had what sounds like a very communal yeah type of experience. so What was that like to sort of go through that with other people? Yeah, ah ah so I'll tell you that and I'll and i'll just tell you kind of the what the ceremonies are like in general.
Communal Ceremonies and Spirituality
01:13:26
Speaker
um So I started with the mushroom ceremonies and actually they're very similar because the plants are from the same lineage and the the ceremonies are similar. the the but But basically, it was in this my friend's living room. ah There's a you know about 10 of us. You have your little yoga mat space or or cushions or pillows, whatever you want to set it up with.
01:13:55
Speaker
And then we did about two hours of work before taking the medicine and we share our intentions. We go over what might happen so nobody's freaked out. We went to the backyard and offered blessings to the land.
01:14:13
Speaker
And then we we take the medicine ah and you know it takes about 20 minutes to kick in. The mushrooms kick in pretty quickly. And then I also worked with a blindfold a lot. You don't have to, but it does really help you to go inward and not just sort of like look at what's going on with everyone else because it because to answer your question like it's a very communal experience and at the same time we're all taking active measures to not be too involved with each other's journeys like you don't want to get sucked in to what someone else is going through because there's really no way to know what they're going through sometimes people are crying and they're having the best time or sometimes someone is throwing up
01:15:03
Speaker
and can't breathe well, and it seems really difficult for them, and afterwards they'll say, oh my god, that was such a needed release, and I'm so glad I got that purge out of me, ah like it was amazing. And so you don't want to get too wrapped up in the details of what someone else is going through, and yet at the same time we're all in the same space. And the thing that connects us is the singing. so we So we sing these songs, they're called ika rose, which are old, you know, ah songs that the plants taught to the indigenous people who cultivated those plants. They came through these ceremonies and through the people and now those indigenous people have passed
01:15:51
Speaker
the songs down for many generations. So these are, you know, the songs of the plants. And as crazy as I know that that sounds to many people and that that sounded to me before I did it, when we were in the medicine it made sense like sure the songs sounded like what the plants felt like and it really sounded right like i'd never heard these songs before but very quickly it felt very familiar and i was joining in with these songs that i didn't know the first time i did it and even more so each time and uh basically the the six hours of the journey
01:16:36
Speaker
you're either singing these songs or mixed in with like a Spotify playlist of like relaxing, calming music, um some some other kinds of stuff like uplifting and uplifting kind of stuff. He mixes it in. um And so you're singing together, you're hearing each other, you know that people are there and yet you're you're going to your own place and you're having thoughts that are your own. Yeah. Yeah. And so the combo of that is kind of fascinating. like Like we are in it together and the energy of other people does affect you. And especially people sitting next to me, I felt like, oh, they're going through something. I'm going to like,
01:17:24
Speaker
I'm going to help them by breathing calmly. and and people And then that person told me later, like, thank you for what you did for me during that journey. And I'm like, all I did was breathe calmly because I heard you kind of struggling. And they're like, yeah, I could sense that. And it was really helpful. And it was grounding. So you're you're interacting with them not by talking to them or touching them, but just by sending your energy back and forth and people can feel it. It's crazy, but it's real. I get it. Yeah. And then and then can I tell you about the insights I had personally? Sure, please. Yes. um I'll try to be brief because I could probably talk for 10 hours and not fully explain it. like You can't really explain these things to people.
01:18:12
Speaker
as you know sometimes trying to explain it dilutes it and cheapens it, but the first mushroom ceremony, my my intention was to find some clarity and acceptance. I learned that ah your intentions going in are really important and you will often get exactly what you ask for. and the the The way it's been described to me is you're having a conversation with the plants, and the plants are intelligent and have been here for millennia, and they will respond to your intentions. And I absolutely believe this is true, and it's not a metaphor, and I had a conversation with the plants. But um I asked for clarity and acceptance, and as soon as it hit fully,
01:19:00
Speaker
I laid down because I just felt like I had to lay down. And I felt this complete total feeling of acceptance of everything around me. And it wasn't just in my head like I've accepted a lot of things in my head.
01:19:15
Speaker
This felt like it traveled down through my whole body. wow And I felt this complete feeling of total acceptance. And all the things I have doubts about in my life and worries like, am I on the right path? Is this the right decision?
01:19:31
Speaker
I just accepted everything and realized, yes, I'm doing everything I can and I'm making the best decisions I can. And like I had this deep trust in myself. And that once I felt that, that gave me the clarity. like I was like, yeah, my doubts are what's silly and what the doubts melted away. And it really just gave me this confidence in in everything I've been thinking and I believing and and all the stuff we talked about last time about bisexuality and masculinity, like it just gave me a lot of confirmation that the the road I've been on makes sense and is valid and and I felt the truth of it. we Were you sitting on a lot of doubt regarding that prior to this experience?
01:20:24
Speaker
You know, I think in my head, no. Like ah in my head, it all has made a lot of sense to me and my coming out journey. has felt like, oh yeah, that makes sense. that But it's all been up here. And I don't think I even realized how maybe I was still holding on to some of the doubts in my body. And you know I lived for almost 30 years as a straight person and trying to fit into a box. And that creates tension in your body.
01:20:58
Speaker
uh and as much as I was beginning to understand in my head like I think I hadn't fully let go of that tension in my body and um the plants really helped me feel uh that confidence and relaxation and acceptance and connection with just like the energy of the universe and just like it's it's so hard to explain but yeah I think there was stuff that I hadn't fully
01:21:30
Speaker
accepted fully, yeah. right and then And then my second mushroom journey was I really connected with my Judaism in ah in an interesting way. like but um ah My last name is Cohen. The Kohanes are the high priests of Judaism, which never mattered to me and was never part of my like religious my temple experience, but suddenly I like saw myself as this cohen, as this high priest. i like My dad was a big part of that second journey. I really connected with him and his energy in that and that one, and the music of it, and he's a bass player, and I like heard the bass line as him. like What you said about different people coming up, like
01:22:17
Speaker
That happened in all my journeys. like I would think of people and everything I thought of, I gained new clarity and insights into whatever thoughts I used to have about them. And it's too much to go into. But like everything I thought about, I got an insight about it. That was valuable. And then the ayahuasca, I'll i'll wrap it up. But you know on my third mushroom journey, I got the message from the mushrooms that okay, you've done this three times, it's great. You're learning stuff each time and you're ready for the next level. Like I i wasn't sure I was ready until that ceremony and and in the medicine, the plants told me you're ready for the next level. And the next level is ayahuasca. I think it's like a good analogy, like mush if you're interested in this stuff,
01:23:11
Speaker
start with mushrooms work your way to ayahuasca and the ayahuasca was a three-day ceremony we did three sits thursday night friday night and saturday morning we woke up and drank ayahuasca for breakfast okay uh interesting breakfast all right and um and a lot of A lot of it was similar, like i I gained insights, everything I thought of, some new insights popped up. I learned a lot of specific things about specific things I thought about that I won't necessarily go into. But the big thing that happened there was I really felt like I connected with
01:23:59
Speaker
a higher power with the spirit of the plants, with the energy of the universe for you know what most people would think of as God. god right i like They asked us after the first night, describe your journey in one word, and then we shared more later, but my word was God. I didn't even have to think about it. like That was what happened the first night was,
01:24:24
Speaker
this energy came to me from from all around the room it sort of converged in this shape right in front of my chest it was like a prism like you know that reflects the light it looked like a prism right in front of me about this size if you're watching on video and it's and the message it sent me was here i am which is like a biblical phrase that I am aware of. like And it just felt like a message from God to me that I am real, that this is real. Here I am. And it was like undeniable. It was there. i could I didn't reach out and touch it, but it was it was there. and then And I know I'm sound insane. but Not at all. but i mean like yeah Having had a similar experience, that I mean, clearly you don't sound insane.
01:25:16
Speaker
good um Yeah, and then that was sort of the big thing the first night, and then the next night, and the third day, the same presence felt like it was there again, but it wasn't like a sharp image and it didn't have a specific message it felt like it was all around me.
01:25:36
Speaker
uh always and it's always there and it i saw the image of like vines growing like a thicket that was kind of surrounding me and holding me up and it was telling me like this is always here we got you you're always supported i got you you could never fall uh and it was this I cried so like I cried a lot on ayahuasca in a way that I don't always cry on mushrooms I had these like tears of joy every 10 minutes thinking think realizing that that this is real that this energy exists that like that I get to feel this connection with it um and then post ayahuasca like
01:26:22
Speaker
the work has really been like, okay, how do I reconnect to that as much as I can all the time in my life? Like this connection is so important. It's everything. And that has really,
01:26:37
Speaker
changed my perception of of the world and of myself and of my ambitions. like i so it It hasn't changed my life completely. I'm not going in a different direction, but it has changed my motivation and my reasoning and and how I'm approaching this stuff and and definitely changed my mental health and my energy. I love that. yeah yeah I love that. and There is, for me as well,
01:27:07
Speaker
um like takeaways, things that I'm trying to apply to my life on a daily basis that came up yeah during, you know, my experience. And, you know, a lot of it is just sort of like phrases or mantras um for me, like during one of my experiences,
01:27:30
Speaker
i I saw the word joy and it might have been like on the side of a mountain or just in big, big letters. um And every now and then, when I'm starting to, like, my brain's starting to, like, edge back a little bit, I try to, like, pop that image back into my head of just, like, joy. um You know, ah let it go is another one. And, you know, that's kind of been an ongoing theme for me for a really, really long time. But I hold on to a lot of stuff. And, um you know, like, one thing I like to use and as an example, ah I saw a movie
01:28:08
Speaker
um a couple of days before Christmas ah called Nickel Boys. I actually have plans to see it. like tonight and need to go Oh, right on. It's a great movie. um There is a scene involving corporal punishment in the movie that resonated with me very viscerally because I experienced corporal punishment in pretty much the exact same way ah when I was a kid. And when I saw the movie, it was maybe, it was actually 48 hours after my last ketamine um ah session.
01:28:55
Speaker
And I went with the my friends, Joe and Jason, who were sitting on either side of me. And had I not undergone the experience that I underwent, I don't know if I would have been able to like sit through the rest of that movie after seeing that scene. um I was able to take that experience, apply it to my experience, and
01:29:29
Speaker
in one sense, let let it all go. But in another sense, think of the experience that happened to me and almost recontextualize it um and take the experience and and offer some grace to my abuser.
01:29:50
Speaker
um And, you know, um just take something that had been really painful and the reenactment of something that had been very painful to me and come to some sort of peace with it. And I don't know that that would have happened had I not just gone through the experience that I'd gone through.
01:30:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah that that makes a lot of sense. I feel like one of the things these psychedelic medicines can do is help you to stay with something long enough to get to a place of insight or acceptance or some kind of change because I think so many things that hurt us or trigger us or just feel uncomfortable, then we move away from those things. Yeah, you're right from them. Yeah. And in the medicine, many people are scared to do these things and it makes sense. It's scary. I was terrified of ayahuasca. Even the moment we sat down, I was ready, but I was still nervous.
01:31:01
Speaker
And if you resist what the medicine is showing you, that's when people have a bad trip. And what I learned before going in and from doing it is like,
01:31:17
Speaker
It will help, you know, it will hold you. It will give you what you need. There's nothing to be afraid of. It's not going to show you anything you can't handle. And so even if it does feel uncomfortable, surrender. sit Right. there Like surrender to it. And that's when you will get the insights. And so doing it in the medicine gives you the experience of what that's like and then it sounds like that's maybe what happened watching this movie is instead of feeling that trigger and running from it you surrendered to it and allowed yourself to feel it and then some insights came from it. Right and that surrendering was part of the uh kind of mean experience too where I would be laying there and I'd be like this feels uncomfortable I don't like this but
01:32:04
Speaker
I'm here, so why resist it?
Facing Discomfort in Life and Ayahuasca
01:32:07
Speaker
just yeah you know I don't know that I ever actually use the word surrender, but like you're having this experience, just have the experience. yeah yeah you let it let it Let it go through you.
01:32:20
Speaker
And isn't that a metaphor for like a lot of things in life? I mean, you should still have boundaries and you shouldn't put yourself in unsafe situations, but like there's so many things we resist that actually we can learn from if we let it, let it happen.
01:32:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a a tendency for people to kind of resist the likeness of life. um yeah Because they want everything to be, you know, they want everything to be storybook like. So, you know, I had this, you know, I've had this conversation with other people before, where they may see problems with their job or their relationship or their, you know, whatever.
01:33:01
Speaker
They're like, I'm just going to ignore the fact that this is happening, because this goes against my storybook narrative. But unless, you know, the only way out is through, unless you go through it. It's not going to, it's not going to minimize, it's not going to go away. It's going to reappear at a later date. And it's going to reappear in a larger, more disturbing form.
01:33:23
Speaker
Right, right. Turning away from these things, right, it doesn't actually make them go away. It makes them go away for now. But actually it can build them up and give them more weight when when it does come crashing in and it will. Right, absolutely. absolutely the the other The other big sort of metaphor and and thing I learned from the process of the plant medicine is like,
01:33:49
Speaker
we do these songs and a lot of them last a long time. Like some of them are 20, 30 minute songs and they feel like they're going on forever and oh man you're going crazy. You're like, okay, I move it on. But that's the same with like the feelings inside you. Like sometimes you kind of get stuck in something that doesn't feel great and what they told us and and I did and now I understand is like everything will change everything will move through you like the song will change the energy will change absolutely the feeling will shift somehow and if it feels like it's getting stuck it's because
01:34:30
Speaker
you haven't sat with you haven't given into it yet and a bunch of things like that happened to me and once I surrendered and once I accepted it that was when it finally shifted and it just reminds me that like every every feeling whether it's good or bad or and we and I don't even want to judge things as positive or negative but whatever the emotion is whatever the situation is like it will change. Everything is only for now. It was funny on the way home from ayahuasca I was listening to some music and a lot of songs really resonated differently and made me think and and I heard this song from avenue q the final song everything in life is only for now and I started crying again listening to that song because I was like yes exactly like everything is shifting and fluid and changing and like
01:35:23
Speaker
Always always always. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can't you can't Stop change from a happening and so much damage happens when you try to resist the naturalness of change. Yeah, right, right. And this energy of the universe that I connected with on ayahuasca, it's so much bigger than me or you or any anyone. like And it's beautiful that we're part of it. like We're not separate from it. We are part of it.
Shifting Ambitions and Community Connection
01:35:56
Speaker
But I had this big ego death moment on ayahuasca, realizing how big that energy is and how small I am.
01:36:05
Speaker
that like I am nothing except a small piece of that bigger thing. and And A, how amazing that is to be part of that. And then also how how small some of my problems seem and how small my anxiety seems compared to how important the energy of the world is. And so that, you know, it doesn't mean we're not important and my feelings aren't important and like, I don't matter. Actually, we matter we all matter a lot. A lot, that's right. but But only in relation to this connection with everything. They're like, I don't matter on my own. I don't think anymore. I matter as as I'm connected to this bigger thing. And that's what really matters is that connection.
01:36:55
Speaker
I love that. I love that. Yeah. Me too. It's really nice. It's really a nice reframe for me. Cause like, I feel like I had a lot of ambitions in my career with film and TV and everything. and And it's not like that stuff has gone away. Like I'm still pursuing all that, but my goal is not the same anymore. My goal is not be famous, make a lot of money, sell shit. My goal is like,
01:37:24
Speaker
helps spread the word. I'm a evangelical now. My goal is like connection, connecting people, connecting ideas, like helping people feel what I'm starting to feel. and And if I sell a script that helps do that, great. But the goal is not money or fame anymore. It's that feeling and connecting. Connection is so important. I mean, my My motto for 2025 is community is everything. um And I experienced a little bit of frustration because I don't know that everybody's getting the message at the same time. yeah um yeah Or some people are not getting the message at all. um But it really is like connection and community is ultimately what we all desire. like We all want to feel like we're a part of something.
01:38:19
Speaker
um with other people. ah And I think anything that brings people closer to that in a way that's not corrupted by capitalism or power is is a really good thing. Yeah, yep, absolutely. so So kudos, kudos to our experiences. Yeah, yeah.
01:38:41
Speaker
And you know a few months from now, we'll have to get together for another conversation and and you know talk more specifics about these experiences. and also talk about what you've been experiencing outside of the plant medicine, you know, as you journey through your your sexuality and your comedy and your coaching and, you know, everything else. Yes, who cares about all that? dad No, no it's all it's all related and and i'm I'm learning to figure out the flow of all that and and get back into comedy and back into writing as well as sticking with the plant medicine. So yeah, we we could talk about this for
01:39:19
Speaker
hours days days and days and still scratch, only scratch the surface. right But yeah, that it's cool to hear your journey too, because it's like different different medicine, different setting, different kind of, a lot of differences, and yet also a lot of similar insights and feelings.
01:39:38
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely want to do this room's thing. And if any of my friends that I have discussed this with are listening, like let's make this fucking happen. on You know, ayahuasca sounds like a very intense experience. And I'm not totally sure that I'm ready for an experience of that intensity. Yeah. Um, you know, but, you know,
01:40:00
Speaker
Shrooms and not even like say people do shrooms and they want to go like hiking and exploring and like partying and like all that stuff I I want to do shrooms and like sit in a room with people I care about and think and talk about feelings Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, yeah, yes. So you can find some friends who are into that. That's great. And also I will say like the ayahuasca, it was intense, especially the third day for me was the most intense um unexpectedly. And in hindsight, it was the intense part was like the best part for me and the part that I needed the most. But also, and also like you will
01:40:41
Speaker
You should only do this when you're when you feel ready and you'll know when you're ready. And if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no. right and if And you'll know when it is a hell yes and you know you'll see. But the first night I was so scared. i One of my intentions and what I asked for was a gentle journey. And I absolutely got that. like The first night was so gentle. It was not intense.
01:41:07
Speaker
And it was profound and beautiful. But like it really does respond to you. And it only gives you what you can handle. And by the third day, I was ready for the intensity. But but the first night was so, so gentle. And so that's just something I'll share. is like It wasn't as scary as I imagined. Love it. Love it. Cool. Well, we can wrap and then move over to part two of this experience.
01:41:37
Speaker
Well, lovely to chat with you. let yeah Let's wrap it up and then we'll move on to the intro. And and if you're if you're hearing this on Two Bye Guys, you'll hear it out of order. right But Mike, thanks so much for for for organizing this. Of course, Rob. I love coming back to your bye guys, and thanks for coming on to Two Bye Guys. My pleasure. as a As a not exactly bye guy, I am you know kind of happy to be here.
01:42:07
Speaker
Cool, I love it. yeah i You all have already heard the answer to this, but I'm about to be curious and ask what you mean by that. Yeah, so thank you. ah Thanks for sharing
01:42:33
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Two Bye Guys and Detoxicity. Go check out Detoxicity. It's awesome. There's like hundreds of episodes and lots of cool people on there. Links are in the show notes. Okay. Thanks, Mike. Of course.
01:42:50
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Minzer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.