Transcript
Speaker: Music
Speaker: Hello everybody, welcome back to Two Bye Guys. We've got a really exciting episode today. My guest today is an award-winning sex and gender specialist, a sex educator, and now an author.
Speaker: She has worked at the NHS, the LGBT consortium, the YMCA, and many more organizations to improve health and wellbeing outcomes for young people and the LGBT community.
Speaker: And she has written a forthcoming book called Step by Step. We love the bi puns. The ultimate guide for bisexual, pansexual and queer young people.
Speaker: And there it is. If you're watching on video. In all of its glory. Indeed. you got you have an advanced copy. How'd you get one those? I do. You gotta know the author.
Speaker: Indeed. And it is published by Jessica kingles Kingsley Publishers. It will be out on September 18th, 2025, which is right around now. whenever they soon It's so soon. It's actually scary.
Speaker: So soon. It might even be in the past by the time you're listening to this, but probably it's in the future. And so welcome. Welcome to Two Bye guys Laura Clark. Hello. Thank you for having me.
Speaker: Thank you for being here. I'm so glad to talk to you about this book because, you know, we I did like book season last year, ah two years ago. All these new buy books, there's so many more. know. Like half of them are published by Jessica Kingsley. They're doing a lot of great work. They're really sort of leading the charge when it comes to buy books.
Speaker: Yeah, they really are. ah Many guests have published with them. Maybe I should. But yours is the first one that I have seen that's really geared toward young people.
Speaker: So why don't we start there? Like, tell us why did you want to write this book? So I think i have known in some way that I was bi since I was about 11 or 12 years old. So I was really young.
Speaker: I maybe didn't necessarily have the language for that. I think the word bisexual came a little later, but I remember just feeling that something was kind of different, feeling that I felt a little bit different to my friends.
Speaker: um And i was I was very much the boy crazy child that everyone was. I always had lots of boyfriends, even when I was in, you know, when I was like three or four, I was the person walking around the playground, holding hands with a boy.
Speaker: um so everyone really knew me as boy crazy, but they was I felt like that was accurate, but there was also another side to it as well. um so i as i got older i started doing more reading not necessarily when i was a teenager but maybe in my young adult years i started doing more reading into bisexuality and kind of um discovering not only my identity but the sort of systems that are in place surrounding bisexuality how we fit in to general society, but also to queer communities and some of the things that I had felt were a bit amiss or a bit different.
Speaker: So I started doing a lot of reading and I just noticed that a lot of the books I were reading were fantastic, but they were very academic or they were maybe geared at people that were a little bit older. And I just kind of thought how much I would have benefited father a book that had all of this information in, but in a more accessible way when I was a bit younger, like 12 or 13.
Speaker: um And then I started doing some research and I just realized there isn't really anything out there. Like everything is kind of geared towards at the very least older teenagers. So I wanted to write something. I mean, my book is targeted at 13 to 18 year olds. And I really wanted to write something that you could read when you're just like a little baby bisexual and you're figuring out your identity. And it doesn't feel too scary, but at the same time, it's not going patronize you. It's going to tell you, you know, the stuff you need to know, but it's going to do so in a fun way and in an accessible way.
Speaker: And yeah, that's how Step by Step was kind of born. I love that. This is like the book that I needed, although i don't even know if as a teenager, I would have consciously connected to it or sought it out.
Speaker: But reading it, I was like, oh, if I had read this as a teenager, it the the way it's written is so open and inclusive. I might have thought, oh, yeah, maybe this is me. But I obviously couldn't have been written 25 years five years ago i know. Well, yeah, it's kind of a cliche to say, like, I've written the book that I wanted when I was a teenager, but it's true. And I think that even though that's a cliche, I think it's a cliche for a reason, because, you know, i think that that means that you've written a book that is authentic and um is one of the the main pieces of feedback I've had about this book is that it's compassionate and that it's warm hearted. And that's all I ever wanted it to be. I wanted it to feel like
Speaker: something you can go to that feels really safe and it feels really inclusive and it's not like trying to dictate anything it's not saying it's got it all figured out it's just kind of there as a guide and um I really hope that I've achieved that with the book Yeah, ah from what I've read, it very much is that. And it's very like clear. like I actually think yeah it may be kind of like geared towards teenagers and young people, but like it's actually one of the most simple, clear explanations of a lot of this that I've ever seen.
Speaker: Well, this is what I've been saying as I've kind of been talking to people about it is, you know, it's for teenagers, sure, but I think it can also act as a very basic one on one introduction to bi and pan identities, no matter what age you are, you know, if you're still if you're starting to figure the things out in your mid 20s, mid 30s, you know, later on, I think it can be a good place to start.
Speaker: And I think in a way it could be quite healing to have something that is like, this is what, this is what little you needed, you know? Um, so it could be a good place to start. And I think also for parents and carers of, of by teens as well, to have this as their guide to kind of like what information is going to be relevant to my teenager.
Speaker: Um, how can i help them and and guide them through? Because I meet, you know, I deliver LGBT training and I meet adults all the time who i don't know the very basics about bisexuality and I have to explain that it's it's not necessarily 50-50 attraction it's not necessarily attraction to just two genders it's more than that and um that's new information to them so if we have people that you know because of it's not really through any fault of their own it's kind of the the system that we live in doesn't educate about these topics but if we don't have that education then you have to start somewhere and hopefully yeah I feel like somebody could pick this up and and get something from it
Speaker: Yeah, indeed. I want to get back to the parents stuff a little later. because like there's yeah like It's almost like so kids these days know more than their parents about this stuff sometimes, but but where are they learning it? and you know Probably many kids are just learning from social media, which may not have all the things correctly defined the way you have and thought through.
Speaker: Absolutely. Let me go here first, though. like When you're writing for a younger audience, like younger teens, as opposed to older teens or, you know, 20 somethings, adults, how did you think about writing that? Like how what kind of tone or how did you gear it towards that younger demographic? I knew that I wanted it to be...
Speaker: funny in places um and to not be all doom and gloom and to throw in some jokes. I used to do stand-up comedy when I was in university and I wanted to kind of just inject a little bit of lightness into it, especially when we're talking about some things in the book. We're talking about biphobia, we're talking about a lack of representation, we're talking about, you know, racism, ableism um within bi-spaces.
Speaker: So it gets heavy and it I didn't want to detract from that, but I knew that I wanted to kind of just it not to be this thing that you pick up and you just feel terrible about the world. You know, there's there's lightness in there as well.
Speaker: um And I think also as I was writing it, because I'm a sex educator, I go into schools, I deliver sex and relationships education. So I have a really good sense of kind of like what is age appropriate already through my work.
Speaker: But even when I was writing it, I kind of had moments where I was catching myself where I was talking about, you know, sex or something that's maybe a little bit more ah maturing content. And I was double checking within myself, you know, is this something that a 13 year old needs to know?
Speaker: um and it was a lot of reflecting back to my own time as a 13 year old and being like, I was getting this information through the Internet, you know, even before the Internet is what it is now, you know, when it was right a Tumblr blog.
Speaker: And I was, a lot of a lot of my bisexual learnings came from Tumblr. um I was getting that information then and I was getting it through whispers on the schoolyard and I was, you know, that information was being passed on to me, but not necessarily in the most accurate way.
Speaker: So I don't think this is a case of the the young people are too young to know about this. I think they are gonna know about this one way or another, and I would rather it come from somebody who is an accredited sex educator, has put care and thought into this, understands safeguarding and and all of those elements.
Speaker: um rather than kind of like whispers through the grapevine and, you know, adult content online that maybe isn't appropriate. So yeah, I think it was, it was a lot of checking in with younger me, ah but also checking in with the expertise now that I have as a sex and relationships educator.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. It's like the information is all on the computer and on the phone. Like it's everywhere. And so like you can't shield kids from what they're interested in exploring and what they want to find information about.
Speaker: And so, yeah, like I think that I was a teenager at the beginning of school. mass adoption of the internet and yeah I found stuff and yeah I was you know you will navigating it all on my own. Yeah. Yeah. You'll either find it or someone will show it to you.
Speaker: Like, I think it's, it's, it's only a matter of time. And I think that's, that's increasingly true now. um You know, I was, i was 13 in 2009.
Speaker: um So, you know, people who know what the internet was like in those days and how much it's changed, you know, people, young people are going to see things and it's just about, are they actually, i think it's really important about kind of beating the false information and the dangerous information to the punch.
Speaker: And actually people say, oh are you giving them this information before they're ready? And it's like, by the time they're ready, they're going to have got that information from other places. So it's about kind of pre-preparing and say i think i say the book in in the sex chapter i say you may not be thinking about this stuff right now and that's so normal i'm not saying this has to be on your mind right now or ever um so this isn't necessarily information for you now but i'd like you just to log it and keep it in the back of your mind so that if you do reach a point in the next few years where this does start to feel appropriate you already have that information you're not going to get it late you're getting it nice and early
Speaker: Right, right. Well, and also like in a heteronormative society, kids are learning about relationships and sex without being told anything. They're learning just by what they see and everything is, I mean, it's changing now a little bit, but things are so heteronormative that you learn a lot from that and you form this baseline opinion of like heteronormativity. Yeah, exactly. That's what's normal. yeah So you kind of like,
Speaker: it's We kind of have to be explicit about this, at least until it becomes more visible definitely in you know in daily life. yeah Yeah. And like I said, I was as a kid, I was that I was boy crazy. i was that was what I was called and labeled. And I always think like if I because I know that I've, you know, i think I've always been bi.
Speaker: And it's it's very apparent to me that what people saw was the boy craziness, but they didn't see the girl craziness because I i never made a conscious choice to keep that hidden at a young age.
Speaker: But I just knew that I had to. um Or if it was being shown, and people saw what they wanted to see and they just were like, oh, she's go you know she's going after all these boys. And they didn't necessarily see the other side of it because it was because we live in such a heteronormative world. um So, yeah, I kind of think that like now I think I'm everybody crazy.
Speaker: yeah But I didn't necessarily feel like I was able to show that when I was younger. Right, right. And it's sometimes like for me, ah it's like the heteronormative attractions make sense and people know how to talk about them and you share that. And then the other ones like the same sex attraction sometimes doesn't ye it doesn't come out in the same way or it isn't visible in the same way. And so you categorize it differently. Like even looking back, there are things things that I look at now as, oh, those were attractions that back then I categorized as like some weird kind of friendship thing going on that I couldn't, I didn't understand. Yeah.
Speaker: But like, it's it's funny because, you know, with a within my family, i've I've had multiple like female celebrities that I've been obsessed with over the years that I've, you know, really wanted to like watch all of their interviews. and And that's been well documented within my family. But at no point did anybody raise any kind of like, oh, could that be an attraction thing? It was just like, oh, no you know, she's just a big fan. She admires these women.
Speaker: And in some cases that was true. But again, I write in the book about how when I came out to my parents, um my dad said, are you sure you don't just really admire women? And I sort of had to flip it back on him and say, well, how do you know that you don't just really admire women? And then he got a little bit like, okay.
Speaker: and Yeah, that's that's clicked for me now to understand what you're saying. um But yeah, it's people see what they want to see, think. Yeah, that's so interesting. it's like, maybe you just really admire that. Well, it's like,
Speaker: that that's something what is it to ah really admire someone that's like yeah is that totally categorically different from being attracted towards a lot of that in there as well but it's just like yeah maybe I do but also you know if you just really admire someone do you want to kiss him do you want to like you know so I think it was kind of flipping flipping that back on my dad and he got a little red and he was like okay yeah no get what you mean yeah yeah interesting so
Speaker: Something you said just makes me think like, yeah, I wish I had this book when I was a kid. Like, I wish I had this podcast in my 20s. That's why I created the podcast. I wrote the book because that's the book I wanted to read and it didn't exist.
Speaker: But so like we do what we wish we had. And that's, yeah you know, that's what we're meant to do. And that's like bringing into the world stuff that's needed. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that makes it authentic as well.
Speaker: Right, right. But also there's something like that just made me think of like, as I'm reading parts of your book, it's taking me back to being 13 or whatever and helping me process what was going on then. It's like time is a flat circle and like actually can tap back into that.
Speaker: So um my question is, did you learn anything about yourself as a teenager as you were writing this? That's a really good question.
Speaker: i think I actually, funnily enough, I think I learned how much internalized biphobia I had as a teenager. Cause I was always very, like I said, I knew that i was bisexual when I was very young.
Speaker: And, you know, from the age of like 14, was going to Pride events. I was very open as an ally, which I feel like is a very common um kind of way to hide. But I was very loud about my allyship and my parents knew that I was a queer ally and all of this stuff. and I just didn't necessarily feel...
Speaker: able to kind of push that just a little bit further and be like, oh, I'm not just an ally, I'm part of the community. um But I think I really realized, especially when I was writing a section about the difference between sexual and romantic attraction, about how you can have sexual attraction for certain people and then romantic attraction to other people or to other genders, or they can overlap. And for most of my teen years, I actually regularly said the phrase like, oh, I, you know, i'm attracted to girls, but I don't think I'd ever marry a girl.
Speaker: i would never get married to a girl. and as I think it was only my early twenty s that I kind of realized that that wasn't true at all. And that I definitely, at the time, I didn't have the language of sexual and romantic attraction. But if we're looking at it in hindsight, what I was saying is I'm sexually attracted to girls or to women, but I'm i'm not romantically.
Speaker: And that just wasn't true. I really, really was. and But I think I was very, very fearful about what that meant for me if I were to and you know kissing girls on a night out was one thing, but you know settling down and being in a relationship and having to be really open with friends and family. i was terrified about what that would mean for me and what that would mean for my ah you know the privilege I had and the life that I had.
Speaker: And in hindsight, I realized how that internalized biphobia really was me trying to suppress something. And that was out of fear.
Speaker: um And, you know, people can be bisexual and not biromantic as well. Of course they can. But for me, it was a case of of trying to avoid a potential reality that scared me.
Speaker: Interesting. i like literally as you're saying that it's resonating with me and I kind of under, I kind of knew that about myself, but like, I also thought when I'm first coming out, like I'm sexually attracted to men, but not romantically and I'm romantically and sexually attracted to women.
Speaker: And that quickly started shifting and i formed emotional and romantic connections with men. But even then I still thought in my head, well, I don't i don't think I would marry a man. yeah And I think in hindsight, a lot of it was just like my comfort level with with the idea of that and putting that out in the world and like all the all the things that are more difficult about being married to a same sex partner that actually my and my internal state might have been much more open, but yeah but I was somewhere in the back of my mind, conscious of the difficulties of being yeah out, yeah or more out as queer. It's really challenging. And i yeah i talk in the book about how I am married. I'm married to a man. um And there are
Speaker: challenges that I face with being a bi woman in a relationship with a man. But we, I got together with my husband quite young. So we were 18 when, well, I was 18 when I met him and 19, just to 19 when we got together.
Speaker: um And I really think that it wasn't until we've been together for a few years that I sort of like had the safety and security to go, okay, what does my romantic attraction to women mean? And weirdly, it was being in that relationship with a man that made me realize the internalized biphobia and by that point I was in love with my partner and you know i that was that was a really genuine thing and it we've been together 10 years now so it's a really genuine relationship but I think that it just let me and it also let me um come out to my parents as well because I kind of it was like the safety blanket even though it was really genuine it was also something that gave me a bit of security and a bit of privilege in some ways to kind of say to my parents
Speaker: you know, I'm i'm queer, i'm I'm bi, and them not have that immediate like, oh, what does this mean right now? Right now, it's fine. i was in a relationship with a man. They didn't have to panic or worry in that sense, um as I thought that they potentially might.
Speaker: um But yeah, I kind of being in that relationship allowed me to really explore my identity in more depth. And I think people think of being in a relationship with ah partner of a different gender can be quite stifling for bisexuality um ah for queerness in general. But actually it really gave me the security to kind of go, okay, we we're in a place of you know privilege. We're in a place of being,
Speaker: you know being being this is this is stable right now, this isn't going to change. So what could that mean? What could my identity mean in a hypothetical world? And just coming more to terms with it. And it yeah, it was really um something that I was able to explore once I had that security.
Speaker: Oh, that's so interesting because like ah that's really cool and I think it's starting to happen more. But there's ah like I know a lot of older people who are exploring their identity from within a marriage and the relationship can actually kind of limit them from exploration because they're worried something will change. They're worried...
Speaker: that exploring this will lead to, you know, but absolutely the marriage changing or ending. and so there's actually yeah Right. So there's like almost less security sometimes, or if there's not security in the relationship, then it can feel really challenging to explore. So it's cool. You've had the security.
Speaker: Every relationship is so different. And I, you know, I'm not saying that my situation is going to be applicable to everybody. Absolutely. Isn't it like you said, it could be the exact opposite. and For me, I'm really fortunate that I am in a relationship where I was really upfront about my bisexuality. I think it was in the first week of dating my now husband that I sort of said, I'm bisexual.
Speaker: What do you, what do you think about that? And he said, it doesn't, it's, it's not really a thing for me to think about it's, you know, that's you. um and I now kind of, yeah, i i I would never be with somebody who wasn't um ah just the biggest queer ally and my partner is very luckily.
Speaker: So um it's not been factor for me in terms of exploring my identity. But I also appreciate that for some people that is definitely something that you would need to consider and it it has caused relationships to break down so I really think that it's it's just a case of it's it's individual circumstances but I guess I don't want people to think that if they are in a ah you know a different gender relationship in a straight presenting relationship I don't want people to think that exploring their bisexuality will inherently mean the breakdown of a relationship because I think yeah I can be testament to the fact that that isn't that isn't always true um yeah right
Speaker: I mean, not only not inherently, but like it can, it in many cases can lead to the strengthening of a relationship and more authenticity. It's just that what you said is like, I can't be with someone who isn't an ally or or a big ally.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, that's so important. And if you don't realize this about yourself before you get into a relationship, you don't you don't necessarily have that filter.
Speaker: And then it cannot be a safe space to be out. and But yeah, so if you have that filter, though, then I feel like you have a real opportunity for growth and connection when you're sharing with a partner, as opposed to disconnection. Absolutely. And and again, I so talk in the book, this is very early on, I'm not giving any spoilers.
Speaker: I talk in the book about how I was in a relationship in my teen years with um a straight guy who um I came out to him as bisexual. Yeah, I came out to him as bisexual. yeah he and sort of initially seemed okay with it. But then when I started telling other people, he told me to stop telling people. it was embarrassing for him, and but you know, that people would think that I was going to go and cheat on him with a girl.
Speaker: all of these really negative things. And that relationship generally was not the healthiest in a lot of other ways. But going from that to then being with somebody who just absolutely just didn't respected it and saw it as something that, you know, was a valid part of my identity, but it wasn't a big deal and would go to pride with me and celebrate with me and go to protests and marches was just just such a difference.
Speaker: And i think it really shows that like you can find some pretty crappy people, um but you can also find some incredible people. And, you know, it's all about being with somebody that makes you feel like your identity is not just okay and not just valid, but celebrated as well.
Speaker: Right. Yeah, exactly. And that can be a process sometimes with people. But like, that is so cool that you found that and that you saw the but contrast. um I want to hit that. Like, I love the opening of your book.
Speaker: It's kind of to paraphrase, it's you kind of go, well, at 13, this happened. At 14, this happened. At 15, this happened. You go through all these little moments that kind of start to add up.
Speaker: And that's how I think about it my pet. Like, I wasn't quite adding it up as I went along. But looking back, it's like, oh, yeah, all these little things started to come together and form this narrative.
Speaker: Yeah. So, I mean, we've heard of some of those bits and pieces already. I call it my own my bisexual teenage montage in the book. I love it. I love it tell it. Tell us like sort of the arc of your queer journey.
Speaker: and yeah if you can, bring it bring it up to today. Like, where has that led you in your work? In the book, I go from, because the book kind of spans teenage life. So I go from 11 to 20.
Speaker: um I'm 29 now. So obviously, it goes on a little bit further than that. So as I said, i kind of always felt that something was a little bit different. I didn't necessarily pin it as crushes on girls. I didn't think of it in that way, but I knew that there were certain girls that I wanted to, you know, just like be really close to and be best friends with. And it was like a bit of a weird obsession. And i just knew that like, I would be thinking about how pretty they were the whole time. And I knew that that was something that was, well, it isn't something that's odd, but at the time I felt like that's odd, that's strange. That's not supposed to happen.
Speaker: um So I initially, I'm a yapper, a true yapper, and I don't keep anything to myself. So I sort of ah very quickly told my three best friends like, oh, I think I could be bi. And I don't actually remember where I learned that word. I think maybe school. But um I knew that as soon as I did hear the word bisexual, it felt...
Speaker: um right? And I was like, oh, great. That describes exactly how I feel. um Told my three best friends. And then it was another few years before I sort of, um I think I write in the book that like, it it started as like a tentative, I think, and then it became like a definite, like I am.
Speaker: and so the first time when I was 12, it was definitely, I think, I think I might be bisexual. And then when I got to 15, I just realized, no, I am you know, i i was very much, told like oh you might develop feelings for girls when you're a teenager but they'll go away and it'd been about three or four years and they had not gone away so I was like I i think therefore i am isn't that classic place Exactly. So um yeah, I told other people, i told my boyfriend at the time, who, as I said, it was not too happy.
Speaker: And I told other friends, and then gradually just kept coming out to to new people as I went. And then when I got to sort of like, I think it was 19 or 20, it was 20, I think I came out to my parents, and they were very lovely.
Speaker: um they They didn't necessarily say all the right things. But I, if if there's any parents listening or any parents reading my book, you don't have to say all of the right things for it to still be a positive experience. And I think that there can be that fear of like,
Speaker: oh no, I didn't say something exactly right. I look back on my coming out really positively, even though my parents didn't necessarily say all the right things. So I think that that's kind of important. And they were so fine with it. You know, they were really okay with it. I'd really built it up in my head over the years.
Speaker: And um yeah. And then once I was out to my parents, I started being out online and being very loud about my identity and about kind of queer relationships. politics, I guess, as well.
Speaker: And then I did a master's degree in gender studies and I really started to kind of explore um systemic oppression and queer theory and all of these other and kind of more like um more in-depth parts of queerness and then i sort of moved into the work I'm doing now so I started working at LGBT charities and that was amazing because once I started my work at those charities I met other queer people and I was around other queer people every day which wasn't necessarily something I'd had before where queerness was something that we all wanted to talk about and I started thinking about gender and yeah it kind of evolved to now and now I'm in a place where
Speaker: I feel like I've possibly accrued enough wisdom to kind of pass that on to younger people and to talk to younger people. So I really love going into schools and delivering talks and, um you know, everything that I do is queer inclusive. So the sex education I received at school was very just like, here's the biology.
Speaker: um Don't get pregnant. Don't get an STI. Sex sex is between man and woman and i And I just really didn't want, um I don't want the next generation to have that.
Speaker: I want them to know that sex can be expansive and self-defining and it can be fun and enjoyable and it doesn't have to be this, this just scary, very pure thing.
Speaker: um yeah and yeah. And then kind of through, through doing that, I explored the possibility of writing a book and now I feel like I can, not only be open about who I am and open about my queerness, but also open about queerness more more broadly and what my feelings are about the way that bisexual people exist and are treated and Yeah, I kind of feel like I've got to, it but I still have imposter syndrome, but I've got to place where I feel like i I possibly have enough knowledge to maybe be a voice in the community, as well as just benefiting from the community as I have over the years. and You know, the black community has been, ah the queer community generally has been a real lifeline for me. So now I'm in a position where I want to give back to that.
Speaker: Cool. I love it. And your voice comes through in the in the work. And like you, ah at least from what I've read, you you have like a very clear like way of explaining things and an understanding of where things are currently with the bi and queer community. Like, you know, things are evolving and the what you put in here i was like yes yes yeah like all of it because i think with the reading i've done and like i i say to my partner sometimes i'm like i have a master's degree in gender studies and i still sometimes read stuff about bisexuality and it kind of frazzles my brain a little bit and i have to read it like three or four times to take it on board and that's fantastic and it's really important that we have these really deep nuanced um kind of like think pieces and and you know academic works
Speaker: that's really important but it's also important that we have something and a resource that explains things nice and simply nice and openly um in a way that young people can get their kind of like foot on the ladder and then build up to those other kind of um books and and and papers yeah Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, in particular, like I always, ah the label wars and everything, like I go back and forth on how much I would like to talk about that. But I just thought you laid out all the different labels under the bi umbrella very clearly without judgment of any of them. Like sometimes I judge some of them. But, ah like, I even read it and I was like, oh, yeah, oh, I didn't totally realize that's what omnisexual was. Like, maybe that's, you know, I should talk about that more. And that's an interesting idea for me. So.
Speaker: It was very well laid That's the thing is like some, so for some people, all of these terms are going to be very similar. And some people will think, oh, well, what's the point in having this term when it basically means the same as this?
Speaker: And I say the book, if that's the case for you, great, use bisexual. You don't have to use omnisexual. You don't have to use this. But for somebody else, they might see that sort of distinct difference and that difference might be important to them.
Speaker: So, you know, it's it's it's a case of all of these things are broadly similar, but for certain people, there are distinctions that are important to them and make them choose one term over another. I always say that if I was growing up now, if I was 13 now, I really think I would probably use the word pansexual because that's probably technically more of an accurate descriptor of my sexuality. The only reason I don't is because by is the word I got to first and i felt at home in that word. And now it just feels like I've used that enough for it to feel like me.
Speaker: So I really think that language is and it's what on one hand is really important and it's important that we use the language that people want us to use and we mirror the language that people use for themselves.
Speaker: On the other hand, I think a lot of it can also be what term did you find first? At what time in your life? um You know, what did you gravitate towards? how Did somebody else that you know who has similar sexuality to you use a certain word? Is that why you used it?
Speaker: So it's just a case of, yeah, just meet people where they're at, but also labels. um If you want to take your label very seriously, you absolutely can. If you don't want to, you also don't have to. Yeah, exactly. And all that's in there, which I loved. you You even write like, if you like the colors of a certain flag, that's a valid reason to choose that.
Speaker: Yeah, of course. Yeah. And also like, maybe you just don't want to explain what pansexual, omnisexual, polysexual mean. So you choose bi because people know what it means. That's a valid reason too. Yeah.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's not about kind of like, you know, again, I always say queerness is about breaking out of boxes. And I think sometimes within the queer community, we sometimes forget that. And we we try to put people into the boxes that we have historically broken out of.
Speaker: um And we try to be very kind of like, um, nitpicky and assertive and just yeah, try and keep people really tied to certain things. And it's it's not, that's not the case, you can really just be like, this is how I want to describe myself today. Or this is how i um I connect with this. So therefore, I'm going to use that term. And it doesn't have to be this really profound thing. It can just be a case of what feels what feels right and what feels kind of comfy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What was it like working with Jessica Kingsley publishers? What was your experience there? Because they're really diving into this stuff. so i actually, a few years ago, i was working for an LGBT charity and Jessica Kingsley do these little book pop-ups in like different places in Pride events and sometimes in conferences, like the place that I was at.
Speaker: And they had this this pop-up table And I have a queer bookshelf um with, think it's like over a hundred books about kind of like sex and gender and all of that stuff um on on it. And most of the books on that bookshelf or a lot of the books on the bookshelf were Jessica Kingsley.
Speaker: So they were at this conference and I kind of approached, I think I was like, this was not that long ago, this was a few years ago. I approached the person who was working on that table and I said, who do I speak to about writing a book with Jessica Kingsley?
Speaker: And I don't know where i got the audacity to do that, but I was like, this is what I want to do. Like, this is a real goal of mine. I would really like to publish a book with you. Um, and they gave me some information and I went away and I didn't do anything with it for about a year. Like i kind of just got scared.
Speaker: Um, and I didn't do anything with it, but I had it in my back pocket. And then, yeah, i kind of pitched, pitched the book. um And they came back and they said, um this is something we'd be interested in. Can you do, because it was just like an email that I initially wrote. So they said, can you do a proper pitch? And I said, yes. And I did. And then they said, we liked it. Can you do a sample chapter? And I was like, yes, I can. So I went away and I wrote, and it's actually chapter three was my little spoiler. Chapter three was my um sample chapter, the one with all of the myths and misconceptions. myths i got Yeah. I initially wrote that within three days.
Speaker: I was just like, go, go, go. And obviously i went back and edited it later for the book. and But I wrote that and submitted it. And the whole time I didn't think at all that I was going to, that anything was going to happen. i mean, I've wanted to write a book since I was very, very young.
Speaker: um It's one of the first things I remember about myself when I was a kid that I was always telling people I wanted to be a writer. um So I really didn't think anything was going to come of it. And I was like Googling stuff like they said oh it's gone to acquisitions, which is where we kind of like all talk about the book as a organization and we decide if you want to publish it.
Speaker: I was Googling things like what percentage of books that go acquisitions picked up and just freaking out. And and then um Yeah, one day I just got an email saying, yeah, we we all like it and we would like to publish it.
Speaker: And I was just about to get on a train to London and I spent the entire train journey sobbing. I have photos of me on that train just like me And not one person asked if I was okay.
Speaker: Like they didn't know that those were tears of happiness. Not one person came up to me clearly having a breakdown and was like, are you okay? Just very British, just very English. Like everyone kind of, we're just like, we're not gonna go anywhere near that. That's a mess.
Speaker: um yeah And they've they've been really good. They've been fantastic. And they've been really, um i would say, like supportive in my vision. i don't feel like they've made too many like changes to what I've wanted. They've been really open with, I kind of said like, oh, I really would like um the cover to be um kind of co-designed by my husband, who's a professional designer.
Speaker: And also the the person who illustrated the inside of the book, I said, I'd really like them to work on it together. And they said, oh, you know, it's not something we usually do. and But we'll we'll give you a shot and they can design something.
Speaker: And they did. And JKP really liked it and we got to use it. And I just think that that kind of creative freedom is just amazing. And yeah, I've really, really been very grateful to the amount of creative freedom that I've been given with the book.
Speaker: Awesome. I'll have to pitch them my next book if I write another one. ah Yeah, cool. Yeah, I did the same thing with my book. I did the first round of interviews for it.
Speaker: I didn't know what it was for. And then I sat on it for a year and did nothing before I before i ultimately pitched it as a book. It's scary. We all need to sit there for a year.
Speaker: ah so As soon as you pitch it, it's real. And as soon as you you actually do something about it, there's the very real notion of rejection. and I think that that's really hard. And I think that i'm ah I'm a real big dreams, pipe dreams kind of person. And a lot of the time I have these really big ideas and then I don't touch them. And I think subconsciously that's because I'm like, as soon as I actually start to do this, it could fail.
Speaker: So if I just don't, if I don't look at it for a little bit, then maybe I can just keep it, keep it as something that could be a success in my mind for a little bit longer. But I think it's okay to do that for a little while, but I do think eventually you kind of need to just jump.
Speaker: um And then you'll just see what happens. You're never fully ready. You figure it out as you go. Never fully ready. Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. If you wait till you're fully ready to step in the arena, you might never step in there.
Speaker: Yeah, I wasn't ready to write this book in so many ways. i was like so sitting in a cafe and like calling my partner and being like, I can't do this. Like, why did I think I could write this book? I've sat here for two hours and I've written like five words. What am I doing?
Speaker: um And you do, you just do it. Like you... Yeah, there's is a really, really cheesy quote and I kind of hate myself for quoting it, but I love it. Like I authentically love this quote, which is like, do it scared.
Speaker: If you think, oh I can't do it, I'm scared. It's like, you can do it scared. And it's so cheesy, but that really genuinely helped, I think, in that like you are allowed to You don't have to be in a perfect position before you do something, before you take on a big project, before whatever. You don't have to be this flawless version who's going to get something right. You can do it absolutely petrified. You'll still get it done. You will get it done.
Speaker: um And then you'll be even prouder of yourself because you were breaking it all the way through, but you managed it. Yeah, absolutely. Beautiful. why Why'd you call it a step-by-step aside from the obvious bi-punk? Yeah, so um this was actually, I am embarrassed about how long it took me to get to this title.
Speaker: So I... pitched I think it was like six or seven titles before I got to step by step it was like a long process um I'd fully finished writing the book um it hadn't done edits yet but I'd basically finished writing the book before I came up with the title and ah I'd been pitching all of these titles to JKP and they were like we don't think this is right like we we don't we don't think this one's gonna work And at the time I was like, Oh God, like, you know, just pick up one of my titles. Like I was sort of like a bit annoyed um thinking like, Oh, you know, one of these must work. I've pitched so many.
Speaker: And then i just had this like epiphany of of the title. It came to me so quickly and it came to me as if so easily that I didn't know how I hadn't thought of it sooner. And it was just perfect because you've got the by-put in there, which is a bit of fun.
Speaker: But also, like, I realized that I think for anybody at any time and in their life, in their sexuality journey, but I think particularly for young people, you are just taking things one one step at a time.
Speaker: um You're taking it step by step. My book breaks down different topics step by step. It's about kind of like not rushing into something. just taking it as it comes, working with what you've kind of got and then, yeah, not trying to rush through or come to some perfect conclusion.
Speaker: So as soon as I had that title, I was like, that's the book. like And I felt that more than I did with any of the previous titles. was like, that's the title. And I pitched it and they said, yeah, ah that works. And then I was so glad, even though I was kind of annoyed before, i was so glad they said no so all of the other titles because yeah, this is definitely the right one.
Speaker: um And yeah, just taking it one step at a time, particularly when you're young, you don't have to rush things evolve so much between the ages 13 and 18. Things change like crazy. So you don't have to like rush. It's not a race to adulthood and figuring everything out.
Speaker: Just take it one step at a time. Yeah. cool Yeah, that resonates so much for me, not even just about queerness, but just like in general. Everything. sometimes Yeah. we can't and and like in terms of the you the title coming to you it's like sometimes we really want to accomplish something or do something and yeah we try to force it out and sometimes you just got to like wait and get quiet and let it come. and And when you really get quiet and in touch with yourself, like the things you need will come to you and yeah and they will often come very suddenly and clearly and you will wonder why you didn't think of it before. And sometimes it's because like you can't try so hard. You just got to like yeah no let let the universe show you.
Speaker: And I, yeah, ironically, I'm saying like, take it step by step and don't rush. I was rushing. was trying to find this perfect title and forcing it and it wasn't working. And in a way, I think finishing the book and looking at the book as a whole um allowed me to really realize what the core theme was, which was just this like, yeah, just take it one step at a time.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah.
Speaker: I want to ask about like the parent-child relationship of it all with this book. like ah you know Hopefully some teenagers, kids at this age will see this book and buy it themselves and that's great.
Speaker: how do you But also like some kids may not even know to look for a book like this. How do you see the relationship between parents and children coming into play with this book, both in terms of getting in front of them and also talking about it? like And just broadly, how can parents help support their queer children's exploration and identity journey? Yeah, yeah. I mean, my my kind of dream for this book, like you said, I'm sure there's lots of young people who will buy it themselves, but my my real dream is like a parent.
Speaker: yeah there's There's certain parents and I absolutely love them when I encounter them, which are like their child's biggest ally. and my my dad does it now if my dad sees anything pride related he like texts me a picture and he's like look hi and to the point where it's like it's it's cheesy but it's really funny and it comes from a place of support and my absolute dream is for parents to buy this for their buy and pan children um and to be like I saw this and I thought of you and maybe read it themselves first and kind of
Speaker: know what they're giving to their child so they can have these conversations. and But I really love that idea. And that that really warms my heart, the idea of this kind of being like a gift from parent to child. And I think for that reason, it's really important that I'm talking to parents when I'm marketing the book and when I'm and having these conversations, because you know, you're allowed to to kind of, um yeah, you're you're allowed to to talk to your child about these things and obviously in a way that they're comfortable with.
Speaker: But I think a lot of children want to be open and they want to know that they have their parents' support. So, yeah, I think it's it's a case of um being being the parent of a queer child.
Speaker: i think I said this earlier, but being the parent of a queer child, especially if you're not queer yourself, I think it can be scary. It can be really scary because you are not um necessarily, you've you've not um had to handle this yourself. Their teen years might look very, very different to your teen years.
Speaker: And you kind of don't really have a rule book on how things are going to go um And that's not true for for certain minorities and marginalized groups as well. So like, for example, you know, mums,
Speaker: are able to talk to their daughters about what misogyny looks like and share their own experiences and they can relate. and Parents of color can sort of talk to their children and there's that kind of like shared identity there, but for queerness that's not necessarily the case. You can have straight parents and queer children.
Speaker: um So I think it's scary. I think if you're a parent and your child comes out to is queer, especially if you've not really encountered queerness before, or you and have only heard the fear mongering in the news.
Speaker: That can be a really, really scary thing to kind of go, right, what is my step in this? And what is my role in this? um And in the book, there's a a chapter about kind of this idea about bisexuality being a phase.
Speaker: And I explore both sides of it. I explore the fact that it isn't a phase for a lot of people, but then I also explore the fact that sexuality is fluid and open and it can change and that that's also okay. That doesn't invalidate it. Um, and in that chapter, there's a moment where I address parents sort of directly. And I say, if your child comes out to you,
Speaker: um You don't necessarily have to say the perfect thing, but you do have to try and meet them where they're at and not doubt their identity. Because if their identity does change over the years, so if your child comes out to you as bi and you say, oh, you're you're too young to know, two things will happen.
Speaker: They will either still be bi when they're older and they won't feel that their identity is something that they can be authentic about with you. Or they might realize that it was a phase and change their minds. But either way, they might be worried about, okay, if they they go, oh, actually, I'm not bi, I'm straight.
Speaker: They might worry about that. I told you so. And therefore not feel pretty comfortable to talk to you about that change. Or if they realize that they are gay or lesbian and they're not bisexual, um they might worry about, okay, well, I came out with a queer identity before and it didn't go very well. yeah.
Speaker: am I actually gonna come out again? How is this queer identity gonna be any different? and So it's just kind of about just meeting somebody where they're at and being like, okay, thank you for telling me.
Speaker: What can I do to, what do you need from me? um And not assuming and just leaving the door open because things might change, but things also might not change. And the thing that will stick in your child's mind is how you responded and and if you were there for them and if you were supportive, even if you didn't necessarily say all of the perfect things.
Speaker: Right, right. That's such an important message. And the way you just phrased that is is perfect. And like, it makes, you know, parents, sometimes you do know stuff as a parent, like parents know something, or they have an intuition about their child, because they know their child well, they may be correct.
Speaker: And it isn't beneficial to the child to to tell them that correct thing at that moment, that what they may need in that moment is just your presence and your acknowledgement and validation of what they're exploring and then let them continue to explore and don't like you, yeah, you that the relationship is complicated and you don't want to like,
Speaker: guide them too much because then they may resist something that they might explore naturally. yeah And kind of a kind of I wouldn't say a pet peeve. A pet peeve is a bit strong. But I would say that something I see happening a lot is when parents kind of suspect that their their child is queer and then the child comes out and the parent says, oh, I've always known that.
Speaker: And it's like that might I understand how you might as a parent think that that is supportive because you're saying, oh, I've always known and it's not been an issue and it's not a big deal to me. But even if you have always known that is their moment of, you know, coming out and it's a huge moment. And even if you did already know, they didn't necessarily know that you knew.
Speaker: So it's not about, you know, kind of being like, oh, I knew that before you did. It's being like, thank you for telling me. I'm really proud of you. That's a big moment. and You know, thank you for trusting me with information.
Speaker: If you had a child who was, you know, super academically gifted and then they got all a stars, you wouldn't go, oh, well, I knew you were going to do that. You'd be like, oh, that's amazing. That's incredible. Even though I suspected, I knew you probably were going get all A stars.
Speaker: I still want to celebrate you in that moment. So I think that I understand the intention with the like, oh, I've always known. and um But try not to be too dismissive and try to still be sort of like to to hold the moment and hold space for the moment of just kind of like this was a big thing for them to tell me.
Speaker: ah And you can say, you know, I've had a sneaky suspicion, but I really appreciate you telling me right now and and let me know if there's anything that you need. Yeah, yeah, lovely. There's kind of a magic phrase that I use so often in my coaching practice, which is like, that makes sense.
Speaker: And you know, it's not not like, ah if someone's coming out, it's not like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. It's like, genuine you know, genuine, like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Like, That makes sense, yeah. Whether I knew it or not or had the suspicion, like, what you are telling me now makes sense.
Speaker: And thank you for sharing it. and like Yeah, absolutely. that that Sometimes that's all you really need to do is just, like, yeah validate and acknowledge that. 100%, yeah.
Speaker: Let's just briefly go through a few chapters and and everyone should read the book and buy it for your children. And, you know, there's a lot more in here, but just to go like some of the big key points, we went through a few of the beginning ones about the identities and myths, myths and misconceptions I've talked about on this podcast forever. yeah yeah You have a great chapter about it, but ah everyone can read that in the book.
Speaker: Okay. Chapter four is called just a phase question. Yes. And, ah you know, this is a perennial topic. And so my question is, like, you wrote about it beautifully.
Speaker: How do you balance the idea that, like, bisexuality isn't a phase? It's this it's a fixed identity. You know, I'm still bisexual every time my doctor asks me, I'm still bisexual.
Speaker: And yet. the idea of fluidity ah incorporates that there can be different phases in in your identity over time. yeah So how do you like balance those two ideas?
Speaker: I think, again, it it kind of comes back to recognizing that it's it's an it's on an individual basis for each person. So for some people, their bisexuality will be a constant throughout their lives.
Speaker: And I always say, I say, I'm, you know, I'm bisexual right now. I think I will be bisexual forever. I've, you know, I've been bisexual from when I was younger to so now in my late twenty s I think that will continue for the rest of my life. That's my guess, but I'm never going to say for sure because I i don't 100% know. I haven't lived my whole life yet.
Speaker: and For some people, that will be something that is very constant. And for other people, their identity is going shift and change and and move. And those two things can exist at the same time without pushing one onto the other, if that makes sense.
Speaker: um I think I say in the book about like, if you were, if you played guitar for like 10 years and then you stopped playing guitar and you realized I just don't really have an interest in playing guitar anymore. People wouldn't say, oh, well you weren't a guitar player. You were a guitar player. You were just a guitar player for 10 years.
Speaker: and but It doesn't mean that you weren't that thing. It just means that that was a period in your life and it's now come to an end, but it doesn't take away from from the experience that you had during it.
Speaker: Um, so if somebody is bisexual for 10 years and then they go, actually, you know, maybe now I've reached a point where gay describes me better or straight describes me better. Um, that doesn't necessarily take away from what you felt during, during those years. And I think it's about not forcing it onto somebody so we can recognize that sexuality can be fluid, gender can be fluid, um but that doesn't mean we can force fluidity onto somebody in the same way that, um you know, for for many of us, we will go through our lives being attracted to different people and we'll we'll fall in love different times and we'll have different partners.
Speaker: But if you were with your current partner and somebody said, right, You know, we understand that um that people can be fluid and they can change who they love over the course of their life. So right now we want you to stop loving this person and love this person.
Speaker: that That wouldn't be possible. So we can understand it as a concept more broadly, but when it comes down to the individual and trying to force something on the individual, it's never going to work unless it happens kind of naturally. And for some people it will, and for some people it it won't.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Love it. Good answer. Okay, you have another chapter on representation. yeah Very important. What do you want young people to know? Or why is representation important, particularly for this age group?
Speaker: So looking back to, again, my teen years, I really didn't see any ah bisexual representation on TV or in books. I occasionally saw some kind of gay and lesbian representation, but even then it it wasn't um it wasn't that prominent and it also probably realistically wasn't written in the best way.
Speaker: um and I think it's really important there's that phrase of, um as in the book, it's it's like, you can't be what you can't see. And it's not to say you can't be bisexual if you don't see bisexual people on TV, but I think that it you struggle to be um proud of your identity and to feel no shame in your identity if it seems like everywhere else that you look, know, television, ah books, films, is sort of not platforming people like you. That can be really challenging.
Speaker: So I think, I mean, honestly, in terms of representation, if young people could take anything from the representation chapter, and And what my dream would be, would be for young people to go and for young black people to go and write their own stories.
Speaker: And, you know, if you want to be a writer when you grow up, if you want to be ah filmmaker, if you want to be a musician, anything that you want to be, go and put bi characters and bi experiences into those stories and um and make sure that um you're kind of, yeah, sharing your authentic experiences. Because again, when we do have bisexual characters and queer characters, a lot of the time they're written not by bisexual and queer people.
Speaker: um And then we lose that authenticity and we maybe get into kind of like stereotypes um and not so accurate or positive representations. So yeah, I think, um you know, seek out media that makes you feel good and that you see yourself in and that helps with your own self-discovery. Don't spend your time on things that make you feel bad about yourself or make you feel that you have to hide yourself. And if you are a creative person,
Speaker: um you know, go and go and create, buy stuff and and put it out into the world because we need more of it. Yeah, I agree. I'm trying to do that. And I'm also seeing now, well especially with like lot of ai tools, how more and more people are going to be creating stuff, whatever form it is.
Speaker: And I'm very curious to see as that barrier to to creation lowers, like what do young people create around this topic? Absolutely. And queer people are so creative. Like queer people are just, they're just great. Like I don't want to say queer people are more creative than straight people.
Speaker: I don't want to say that, but you know. No, no we would we would never say that. We would never say that. That would be ah really stereotypical. But no, I just see. It's true. It's very true. I just wouldn't say it loud.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I just see, I see the creativity within the queer community and I'm i'm astounded every single day by the things that people create. And um yeah, I want young young queer people to know that they can they can make their own stuff and they can tell their own stories.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to this episode with Laura Clark. There's a little bit more with Laura coming up. I asked her about her chapter on sex. That answer is really interesting. There's also a little bit of bonus material with Laura on Patreon. I asked her about her chapter on dating and also her chapter on coming out and what young people in particular should know about coming out.
Speaker: So check that out at patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. Also happy September. It's Buy Visibility Month. Stay tuned to my newsletter for some upcoming events this fall. You can subscribe to my newsletter in the show notes or on my website, robertbrookscohen.com. And I'm open for individual coaching. I have a few new spots open in the fall. I always have two scholarship spots available, which is reduced price coaching, half price of my normal price. I have one of those spots available and the other spot should be coming available in October or November. So if you've been interested in individual coaching, now is the time to schedule an intro call with me. Mention the scholarship spot, and if it's still available, we can talk about that. And now enjoy the rest of this episode with Laura Clark.
Speaker: Okay. The last chapter in your book is called sex. I didn't get there. So what's give us a little preview. like you I mean, you're writing to young people about sex. What's what's the yeah what's in there? What's your message?
Speaker: in the sex chapter, I kind of break it down into three key parts. One being, I guess, physical safety and how do you protect yourself if you're having sex with people who um you know lots have lots of different bodies and what does that look like um that's kind of physical safety then i go on to consent and which is more about kind of like mental safety and how do you protect yourself and how do you protect your partners and make sure that everybody is comfortable um and then finally i move on to pleasure which is um we've got kind of like physical safety emotional safety and then just like fun um fun and pleasure because that's kind of what is is missing um so yeah i mean i talk about how to have safe
Speaker: physically safe sex and to protect yourself from, from STIs. Um, and then it's more into like, how can you create a sexual experience? Um, and like I said, it might not be when they're reading the book, it might be a few years into the future, but how can you start to create sexual experiences?
Speaker: that feel ah not just safe for everybody involved, safe is important, but also feel just like comfortable and fun and enjoyable. And also that you don't take too seriously. I know that when I was growing up, I saw, you know, sex scenes on TV and it all seemed so glamorous and so polished. And I was like, I i would spend hours thinking about like, oh, when I get to that point and when I'm having sex, how do I,
Speaker: appear as sexy as they are and how do i seem like I know what I'm doing and I really think that the best sex you can have is one way you can laugh at yourself and you can you and your partner can laugh together because things happen in sex that you don't see in tv and movies and porn um and things can be awkward and kind of ah yeah things can be awkward and silly and funny so how do you um have a really healthy attitude to that when you are younger and how do you go in going right it's not about looking like a porn star.
Speaker: It's about making sure that you have an authentic connection with somebody that you feel comfortable and that you're doing things that feel good for you and your partner. um And also about kind of like figuring out what sex looks like for you, because I'm a really big advocate for like sex is what you, what you decide it is. You get to define what sex means for you.
Speaker: And I think especially for queer people, um And I think actually particularly, I'd say for queer people generally, but I also think particularly for um people who have vulvas who are having sex with other people with vulvas, because we're such a penetration kind of obsessed society, a lot of queer people are like, well, if there's no penetration involved, then what what does sex mean? And what what is sex for me?
Speaker: um Have I had sex if I've never, you know, that involved penetration in my sex? But you actually get to really kind of decide what sex looks like for you. And if If what one person would consider foreplay for you is actually your version of sex, that's fantastic. Then that's sex for you.
Speaker: and We can all define it differently. And I just really want young people to know that, again, there's no rule book to follow. You don't have to ah do what everybody else is doing. You don't have to feel we talk about peer pressure all the time, but you don't have to feel pressured and you really get to kind of forge your own.
Speaker: sexual path and sexual journey as long as you're keeping safe and you're being respectful of the people involved and it's consensual you really get to figure out what what what does your version of s sex look like and what feels good for you Cool.
Speaker: I love all that. When I was younger, it felt like sex was this thing you had to perform and check off a list for me. And I wanted to have done it. but i And and you know I guess there was there was enjoyment in it, but I wasn't really focused on the playfulness and the sensation and the enjoyment of it. It was more of a, I felt a lot of pressure to be be doing it. this is a incredibly This is an incredibly British story, but um you said about having a list.
Speaker: There's a book that we have ah here published by a British author called Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging. And within, so snogging is like making out. And um in the book, there was something called a snogging scale. And it was actually a list that was printed in the book.
Speaker: And it went from like flirting to holding hands to kissing, to kissing with tongue. all the way to sex. And this was printed in the book. And as a teenager, I ripped that out of the book. And I like genuinely thought that as I went through my teenage years, I had to tick these off in order. um ahha And I think a lot of people, it's not as literal as that, but I do think we all have this mental list, particularly when we're younger, of like, oh, first I do this. And then in a few years time, I do this. And then I eventually graduate, in quotes, graduate to, so again, in quotes, full sex.
Speaker: um And that isn't the case. You get to switch things up. It's very pick and mix with sex. You get to decide what you take and you get to decide what you leave. And there's not a correct order as long as it's the order that you feel comfortable in Right, right. There's not like certain sex acts are not better than others or higher level or you haven't achieved.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, no, just do what you and your partner want and think is fun and playful. Absolutely. Lovely. Well, thank you for... being here today, Laura. I'm so excited for this book to come out on September 18th.
Speaker: um Tell people how they can find ah the book and more about your work if they're interested. So if you go online and look up, I'll hold it up again, step by step,
Speaker: ah The Ultimate Guide for Bisexual, Pansexual and Queer Young People. So you can look that up. um Ideally buy from your local queer bookstore is what I always say, but i do understand that sometimes that isn't possibility. So it is available other places online um and you can order it kind of online.
Speaker: But yeah, you can find me at at my body and yours on um Instagram and also TikTok and my two like primary kind of um social media platforms. And my website is www.mybodyandyours.com.
Speaker: And you'll see all of the work that I do around kind of like training and sex education and also writing. And I'm posting a lot about the book at the moment. So you'll probably see a lot about the book. Cool. Amazing. All of those links will be in the show notes. You can check that out.
Speaker: And yeah, check out the book. Read it. Thank you so much again for being here. This was lovely and it's going to help so many young people. The book we wish we had.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash robertbrookscohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit robertbrookscohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.
Speaker: Bye.
