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Authentic Bi+ Storytelling with Aaron Hammersly
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This week I sat down with my friend Aaron Hammersly, filmmaker and production executive at Disney, board member on the LA Bi+ Task Force, and outspoken advocate for the LGBTQ+ community, working especially for more inclusive representation in front of and behind the camera. Earlier this year, Aaron co-authored Re-Write the Bi-Line’s “Bi+ Narratives: A Guide to Authentic Representation in Storytelling”, the first comprehensive guide to portraying bi+ characters in film and television.
In this IN-PERSON (!!) interview, we talked about Aaron’s queer journey; “the social insidious nature of biphobia and bi erasure”; why it’s difficult to represent queerness within the major studio system and in our current climate; the costs and benefits of being out at work for writers, producers, and other creatives; why it’s unfair and unproductive when writers’ rooms fill a “diversity slot” instead of valuing diverse identities and experiences across the board; and how Aaron got involved with “Still Bisexual”, “Rewrite the Bi-Line”, and co-author Christina Fialho in order to write the Bi+ Narratives Guide.
We then dove into the recommendations in the guide (like “if the audience does not know if the character is bi+, we cannot change the narrative for bi+ people”, and “expand opportunities and empower new voices”), and we began to discuss case studies of bi+ representation in the current film & TV landscape. Stay tuned for more with Aaron in next week’s season finale when we continue going through the guide!
Magic Mind: You have a limited offer you can use now, that gets you up to 48% off your first subscription or 20% off one time purchases with code TWOBIGUYS20 at checkout. You can claim it at: https://magicmind.com/TWOBIGUYS20
The Bi+ Narratives Guide: https://www.rewritethebiline.com/bi-test
Follow Aaron on IG: https://www.instagram.com/secretsyrin/
“Manic Pixie Bi Boys”: https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/the-manic-pixie-bi-boys
SURJ: https://surj.org/
DSA website: https://www.dsausa.org/
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Transcript
Introduction and Season Finale Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Here we go. The first ever in person to buy guys. Are you ready for this? Is the world ready for this? You're gonna end up cutting this part out. Maybe I'll use it. You never know.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Two Bye, guys. I am Rob. This is part one of a two-part season finale. We're going to 11 episodes this year with the election special. First time we've done 11 instead of 10. Hope you enjoy it. It stresses me out to have the hot number, but, you know, we had to do it.
Interview with Aaron Hammersley
00:00:46
Speaker
Coming up in a few minutes is a lovely interview with my friend Aaron Hammersley. He works at Disney and he recently wrote a guide for authentic bi representation in storytelling, in film and TV primarily. We did an in-person interview at my apartment, so the energy is pretty fun. I hope you enjoy it. Unfortunately, the sound is not perfect due to the way that we recorded it with one microphone, but you can still hear everything we said. It's not too bad. And I did say in that intro that you just heard, and I think I repeated it again, that it's the first time we've ever done an in-person interview. I totally forgot that we started this podcast in person when Alex and I began in season one in 2019. We intended to do this all in person and then the pandemic hit.
Post-Pandemic Interview Transition and Election Concerns
00:01:34
Speaker
and it became all virtual and I started using Zencaster. It's kind of hard to remember those pre-pandemic days. So I guess it's not technically the very first in-person interview, but it's the first of the new era. It's the first in-person interview of two bye guys, bye one bye guy, certainly. So I hope you guys enjoy that. Before we get there, obviously there was an election recently if you didn't hear.
00:02:00
Speaker
If you listen to this podcast, it clearly did not go the way that I was hoping and probably not the way many of you were hoping. I was very surprised, to be honest. I didn't think it would turn out this way. And I stand by everything I said in that podcast episode and on social media. I am worried about what could happen. Bad things are going to happen. I wish it were the other way around.
00:02:23
Speaker
it remains to be seen how bad things will get. Maybe it will just be a little bit bad. Maybe it will be really terribly catastrophic. I hope that it is not the latter, but either way, it's up to us to resist and to fight and to show people that the policies that he has put out are not what most people want. I have listened to a hundred takes about why he won, and a lot of it makes sense, and I get a lot of what is going on in the world and why this is happening and i'm this is not a podcast about politics, I'm not going to get into all that. But it is definitely true that a lot of the policies he ran on are not popular. And it's up to us to find those connections with other people who oppose these policies and reach out to these people and be clear about what's going on because there is so much disinformation out there. Possibly more on that in the future, but again, that's not the focus of this podcast. There are many other podcasts for that. I encourage you
00:03:22
Speaker
to listen to them and to stay engaged.
Community Engagement and Self-Care
00:03:25
Speaker
I definitely have felt like tapping out and you know take the time you need for self-care and don't jump into it right away. I definitely may tap out here and there to take care of myself as I did last week when I failed to edit this podcast episode. But I'm also invigorated and re-energized to continue the fight and continue the resistance. As we said, as RJ and I said in that episode, regardless of who wins, there is work to be done. And we'll just see what type of work it is. So now we kind of know what type of work it is. So we have to get to it.
00:04:00
Speaker
The only other thing I'll say is about the importance of community right now. If you are interested in being politically engaged, there are lots of great political organizations and communities to get involved in. I am a member of SURGE, which stands for Showing Up for Racial Justice.
00:04:18
Speaker
I did some pre-election work with them. It's a great organization that I'll throw out there. I've also been involved with DSA in the past, and though I kind of fell off a little bit recently, I i have renewed energy to get involved with DSA.
Support from Queer Community
00:04:33
Speaker
and whatever organization or community you align with, go join, do in-person community. And then especially for everyone listening to this podcast, queer community is going to be so important always, but for the next four years, especially, queerness is a gift. Queer community will help sustain us through this and will help us protect each other through this. If you've been involved in in-person queer community in the past,
00:04:59
Speaker
stay engaged. And if you have not, now is the time to join. I am not telling people to come out if you're not ready, especially in this political climate. That is a choice that only you can make, and you should only do it if you feel safe to do it. And there may be many reasons that are coming that it may not be safe to do it. But if You do feel safe. I encourage you to join queer community. This is the antidote to the despair, or at least one of the antidotes to the despair we may be feeling. And it is so important to nurture your soul and remember who you are as fascism.
00:05:33
Speaker
comes into power and as disinformation festers and as anti-trans and anti-queer sentiment spreads and is used against us politically, we need to remember that we're here, we exist, we're valid. And not only valid, but beautiful, and we have so much to teach the world and we need to continue sharing our stories a lot of the disinformation in the election about us is just not what our community is. And these ads that ran all over the country are misrepresenting us. And so it's really important now
00:06:10
Speaker
that we tell our stories and that if we're safe to do so, we are visible. So I'm going to continue doing that on this podcast and in-person queer community is really valuable to feel normal, valid, accepted, and the next level that that queerness is an amazing, special thing that is healing, that I do believe is part of what can heal the
Magic Mind for Mental Health
00:06:32
Speaker
world. If we share ourselves authentically, if we lead with love, many of us have been through so much and learned so much along the way. And the empathy that we can have for other people is a really powerful force that we will need now more than ever. And of course through all that, take care of yourselves, practice self-care, take care of your mental health, go to support groups, go to therapy, meditate, do yoga, whatever works for you. One thing that has been working for me lately is Magic Mind. I mentioned it in the last episode.
00:07:05
Speaker
I've now been using it for a few weeks. Turns out to be good timing. Magic Mind has definitely been helping with my mental health and helping me to stay smooth and calm through all of this. If you're having one of those days where you just need a bit of a boost, but you don't want to be constantly drinking coffee all day,
00:07:23
Speaker
and get those jitters and that anxiety that comes with it. Magic Mind is really helpful for that. I've been using it for three or four weeks now. It's really like smoothed out my mood. It's allowed me to get into flow states where I'm creatively engaged and doing the work I need to do.
00:07:41
Speaker
I've also been cutting down on coffee lately and the Magic Mind has really helped me ease into that. It is not a coffee replacement, but it does help you have less coffee through the day and it helps time release the caffeine so that you don't need so many cups continuously throughout the day, but so that that one or two cups in the morning can spread itself out over the day and just keep you energized, but in a nice and smooth way. Magic Mind is basically a mental performance shot. It's a small little green capsule. I really like the taste. It has mushroom nootropics and adaptogens, plus over 100% of your daily vitamin C and D per bottle. Their mushrooms are organically grown in California. We love mushrooms. We love California. And they're sold in Sprouts and Central Market and Erewhon. And if you live in l LA, you know how fancy something is if it's sold in Erewhon, so it must be good.
00:08:37
Speaker
There's no risk. They're so confident in what they've built that they'll refund you 100% no questions asked for 100 days after buying. And I just, I really like it. I recommend it. It's definitely helped me through this period and in general just helps smooth my mood and feel good all day without so much coffee. So if you're interested, you have a limited offer you can use now that gets you up to 48% off your first subscription or 20% off a one-time purchase with the code 2BuyGuys20 at checkout. That's T-W-O-B-I-G-U-I-S 20 at checkout. We'll put the link in the show notes, but you can also claim it at magicmind dot.com slash 2BuyGuys20. So check it out. I highly recommend. In addition for your mental health,
00:09:24
Speaker
Like I said, support groups by request and by, there are lots of options.
Rob's Coaching Services
00:09:29
Speaker
I recommend them. Group coaching is also available with me. You can check out my website, robertbrookescohen.com slash coaching for info and dates on group coaching.
00:09:40
Speaker
and individual coaching I do have a couple slots available I'm working with a bunch of clients it's going really well but I always have slots available not to use the new administration to sell coaching but you know he promised the economy will be better and the stock market is up but his stances on social issues are backwards and will cause a lot of people stress so it's a era of more money but more problems so perfect combo for coaching so why not sign up for coaching with me um But seriously, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself, now is the time to do it because come the new year, we need to be ready to take on whatever is coming our way and take care of each other. So now coming up is my interview with Aaron Hammersley. We talked about bi-representation in film and TV.
Bi-Representation in Storytelling
00:10:30
Speaker
Although in this first part of the interview that is in this episode today, we talked a lot about Aaron's journey and his story. We got deep into it. His story is really interesting and the way he got into the work he's doing is fascinating. And then towards the end of this episode, we start to get into the actual guide that he wrote with some of his recommendations, but then the majority of the deep dive into the guide will be in next week's episode, so stay tuned for that. Or if you're listening on Patreon, then you get the whole thing right now. Check out patreon dot.com slash robertbrickscohen for early access, full video episodes, and some other bonus content here and there when I have it.
00:11:13
Speaker
And with that, here is the interview. Enjoy.
00:11:28
Speaker
Okay. Hello. Hello, everybody. Hi, Aaron. Welcome to a new experiment on Two Bye Guys. We're back. This is our two-part season finale, probably. Maybe, maybe not. Things can change, but it leads to me. i might It might be the end of our season. It's coming up on that. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, the first ever in-person Two Bye Guys. We're seeing how this goes. We're recording at a table. If you're watching on Patreon, you can see us here. Look, look on my hand.
00:11:58
Speaker
goes across and he can touch it. We can touch each other. Oh, so lovely. Welcome. Welcome finally to two by guys, my friend Aaron Hammersley. Welcome. Thank you. It's so nice to be here finally. Yes. And I'm glad we could do this little experiment in person. And, uh,
00:12:15
Speaker
We live down the street from each other. I know, and have for many years. yeah Yes, and yet this is the first time you're here in my space. It's true. Thank you. It's a good space. We were gonna do this podcast from the hot tub at my complex, and which I thought was an amazing idea, but Aaron didn't want to. No, that's not that's not. I just felt like maybe the sound would be problematic with all the bubbles.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, probably. And you know, all the other people. Yeah, the other people in the hot tub. Yeah. It might be distracting slightly. I don't know what to talk about by representation. Yeah. I think it could have ended up being a little bit of a group discussion.
00:12:56
Speaker
Someday. Someday that would be an interesting episode. No, yeah, yeah. It's just you and I just sitting in a hot tub talking to random people who come in and out of the hot tub. I don't hate that idea for a spin-off podcast. Yeah, this is our spin-off podcast. It can be called 8 Pie Guys in a Hot Tub. So why are you here, Aaron? Let's tell a little bit of people about you, because they might not know. So Aaron Amersley, who uses any and all pronouns, really?
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, I, uh, that's a long story, but basically I don't but have a relationship with my own gender identity, so I kind of just, yeah. We'll get into that, I won't ask you about that. Aaron Amazley is a filmmaker and production manager currently at Disney, right down the street. I used to pick it outside and he would wave.
00:13:45
Speaker
They hug each other across the picket lines. whos great building There's just love between unions and studios. Yes. But over his 16 years in the industry, he has worked for every major studio and has worked with 75% of all celebrities according to him. Now he says it's 80%. We'll have to really... I'm going to audit you on those statistics. We'll do a little test later. He is on the board of the LA Buy Plus Task Force.
00:14:15
Speaker
Like RJ, is RJ on the board also? Or by a stepfather on the show? I don't think so. He just does stuff. He does all kinds of stuff. You're actually way more important than RJ. No, that's not true.
00:14:31
Speaker
We're all equals in our fights. OK, OK, fine. Yeah. But you're on the board of Valley by Task Force. Aaron is an outspoken advocate for the LGBTQ plus community, working especially for more inclusive representation in front of and behind the camera. In 2024, he co-authored Rewrite the Bylines, By Narratives, a guide to authentic representation in storytelling, the first comprehensive guide to portraying bi characters in film and television.
00:15:01
Speaker
I also wrote that he currently resides in Los Angeles, which we already discussed. And that's where we are. And so welcome. Welcome to Two Bye Guys. So great to be Two Bye Guys in the same room. You're the, you're, you're the second bye guy for today. Oh, love it. Yeah. Yeah. You, you were by before me though, probably. Um, maybe, I don't know. We'll have to talk about that. We'll have to figure that out. Tell me about it. Tell, let's talk about it right now. ah Tell me about like,
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah. So like also I'll just say we are friends. We know each other. Yes. You want to say hi for several years. ah Where did we meet officially? We met at some by event at some point. Probably am I. I don't remember exactly. I don't know exactlying which event it was, but you know. Yeah.
00:15:47
Speaker
Maybe there was a hot tub involved, I don't know. Maybe. Still no sexual thing. I remember meeting you at Pride maybe. Yes, multiple times. I think we met before Pride, but Pride is like where we talked more and maybe became friends. Yeah. Oh, are you considering us friends? I consider us friends, yeah. know You've never invited me over to your home, but now you have, so it's okay. Now we're friends.
00:16:10
Speaker
i but If I invite you to my home for business, it counts as... Yes, yes. ...spills over in friendship. We've had many a fun hangout outside of either of our apartments. Yes. True. Okay, cool. So tell us a little about your ah journey. I am curious, actually, if you were by before me.
Aaron's Personal Journey
00:16:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I think you probably were from what I know, but when did you kind of realize it and what's your journey been?
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, on so I think a lot of the way that I sort of characterize my childhood and my discovery of that part of myself is that I felt like an alien for most of my life. I still really very much do. but um I remember like going through adolescence, right? Probably like we always did, and and this was in the 90s, so it was but it was still, in my opinion, the most homophobic decade of ah human history.
00:17:07
Speaker
um i think i
00:17:12
Speaker
having these like realizing that I was having all these attractions with different kinds of people and especially having when I started the process we moved into a more white facing affluent part of the country and it was a very different experience for me because I we were poor and I'd come from a small town and we were still not wealthy and the experience I had was just being around a lot of like rich white people basically who had like a very different experience of the world than I did and so I felt like an outside in that regard. And then at the same time, I was like, wait, why am I attracted to like all these dudes and also these like women at the same time? and And unfortunately, and one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about ah representation of film and television um is that I grew up very passionately watching a lot of film and TV. It sort of naturally led to me being in this industry.
00:18:07
Speaker
ah But I will always tell people that I never heard the word bisexual until I was 19 years old and that and it was in a ah terrible It's a terrible example. But anyway, it was a joke about like being bisexual is not real um but i'm remember hearing that movie on tv or now it is a movie' a movie call Now it's it's gonna escape me Jeffrey ah kind of Patrick Stewart. Anyway, I um but i But I was intrigued by the word, basically, and I thought, oh, that's...
00:18:43
Speaker
That's interesting. What's that? um and And, you know, when I was a freshman in college, this work kind of stuck with me. And I was like, wait, that you like can be attracted to both. And during that time, I was having a very fluid experience, sexually, where I'd be attracted to like women more like one week. And then the next week, I would be attracted to like men more and like be more interested in exploring that.
00:19:06
Speaker
And it was also the first time in my life ah because it was college and people were more open about being themselves to some degree. ah they would I started having gay friends for the first time. And unfortunately, my gay friends at that time period were extremely, and this is not going to surprise you at all,
00:19:26
Speaker
very negative towards me saying that I was bi and that I liked women and all of these things and I I mean to this day years and years later like I know shocking to these to this day years and years later I so like it's the same narratives as we know right like there are so many women I dated that are like are you just gay or like you know she on me there's so many men um Gay men that I've dated, they have wondered that. um But anyway, because of that experience in college, I stopped trying to come out, basically.
00:20:02
Speaker
um And ah for a lot of other reasons, I just decided to be straight for most of my 20s. And then when I was 29, I fell in love with my best friend, who was a man. He was a gay man. And we ended up falling in love and we were in a seven year relationship together before it ended. And that was when I had to come out because It forced my hand in terms of believing that some part of me was wrong or like some part of me was like the gay side of me was just because of something or whatever. I mean, it was just sexual and that it was that that attraction meant nothing beyond physicality or whatever you want to say. And at that point, it was like, wait, I have now been in love with um two women by the time I was 29. I've been in love with two women and I was in love with this guy and I was like,
00:20:59
Speaker
um Oh, and I'm still attracted to all these different kinds of people, and that's only expanded sense, but when I was 29, I came out to my family, I came out to a lot of my friends and sort of lived that way, and then after a lot of- You came out at the beginning of that relationship, or towards the- Essentially, yeah, towards the beginning of that relationship. Was it surprising to you that, because I identify with them like, oh, my attractions have been more sexual and not as important. And I want to do that, but it's not but how I'm going to live my life. And then I started falling in love and having emotional connections and going, oh, I guess that's possible too. Was that surprising to you? That that happened? It was. I mean, I think the way that society groans us is, it's probably still true, but I
00:21:48
Speaker
Not even like believing that the the side of me that people were saying is gay was wrong But it's just that my entire experience of like the way that same-sex attraction works for you know people who are male like it feels like it's very sexualized and physical and it doesn't feel like there's not a lot of focus on like the beauty and the the more spiritual the more emotional like side of that and again i was like i'm happy to just be with a woman and just like know that this is a thing in the back of my mind but just like live as a straight person yeah it's quite frankly easier even though on the inside you're being crushed
00:22:30
Speaker
like in your soul like it's hurting you and you're you're hurting yourself uh by not expressing who you are. um But yeah, I mean, it was, you know, having my hand forced by falling in love with a boy was, you know, ah meaningful. And, and I would say he's one of the few gay men I've ever met or been with that was totally fine with it. He is one of those gay men that's probably grossed out by like, women's, like,
00:23:01
Speaker
organs in general, to put it lightly. But just ah never questioned that I would cheat on him. Never wondered whether or not we were real. Never you know you know thought that I was going to like run away with a woman or whatever. like That he was not efficient enough for me or whatever he was. We love that self-confidence and non-biphobia from the gay community. and well it As much as there's stuff to complain about, there's I think a growing portion of the gay community
00:23:38
Speaker
probably the majority that like is getting it i would like i would i i'm hoping so yes i will be optimistic with you yeah both but he was definitely one of those things yeah please definitely exist yeah no for sure interesting okay so then so then you were saying you came out to your family around 29 30 which is around how old i was yeah yeah i mean i Yeah, I think generally speaking, we maybe i wasn't it seems like I wasn't as aware of it as you were younger, that you didn't come out, you kind of made a decision. Yes, no, that's exactly what happened.
00:24:16
Speaker
i would a You know, given the way you know we grew up in this society we grew up with that's still largely there, I think ah I actively made a decision to never talk about it until I was in college. And then I had a very tight group of friends in college that I Tried to have a Experience talking about it with him again and went badly so I was like fine. It's fine. I'll just be straight It's fine like you know and then it you know backfired when I fell in love But and where'd do you go and then purg you move to North? I grew up all over the place. I like to tell people I moved eight times before I graduated high school um yeah, and ah But we ended up for high school we ended up in this
00:25:04
Speaker
ah town called Chapel Hill, North Carolina, which is where UNC Chapel Hill is, Tar Heels, Michael Jordan, etc. It's right by Duke University. yeah um It's very affluent white, it's very segregated for the most part as a town. Like they're just definitely income driven segregation. Interesting. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of rich kids. And why are you wearing a Boston Red Sox hat? Cause I love ghost socks. I love. Why, why are you like Boston?
00:25:40
Speaker
I love Austin. I always loved Boston. you know Growing up outside, I wasn't a New Yorker in that city. So you i wasn't yeah yeah yeah yeah we we grew up I grew up in Pennsylvania, New York, Virginia. All right. All right. Fair enough. DC. Yeah.
00:25:58
Speaker
Okay. So then you came out to your family. Yes. And then, and then what? How did you, how did you, this became a bigger part of your life. at Yes. Yeah. So I came out to my family. ah the That's a whole side story, but let's say that went about as well as it goes for any of my person with family members that just don't actually have to say that my father surprisingly was very um open about it. Like he wasn't, I'm not saying he particularly understands from a knowledge perspective what that experience has been like for me, but sort of randomly one time at dinner, or my ex and I were sitting together with him and my mom went to the restroom and he just like turned to me and he was like, I just want you to know that I don't care who you end up with as long as you're happy and you're in love with that person.
00:26:52
Speaker
And I was like, that's like a really sincere way of my dad being like, I accept you essentially. And he came from a very small, very like ultra toxic masculine town in upstate Pennsylvania. And, you know, it was, it was just not what you expect from my father. My mother to this day has been more complicated to deal with, yeah you know, she's still living in, I don't know, like her liberal fantasy that she has like a gay son and wants me to be her BFF. I don't know. It's a very strange psychosis, to say the least. I don't know if that sounds good or bad. Yeah, I don't know. I remember when I came out to her, we were in the car. This is such a visual memory. It was the day after my 29th birthday, and we're in the car driving down the 101 South on our way to Disneyland.
00:27:49
Speaker
And ah I said, mom, there's something I need to tell you. And I said, I am not just attracted to women. I'm attracted to...
00:28:03
Speaker
But, you know, I have the potential to be attracted to everyone. And um her first response was, I think that's going to be hard. and Yeah. Which may become a loving motherly place, but that's kind of what the narrative has been. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's common. I'm like, I would say.
00:28:22
Speaker
I had a similar thing with my parents like my dad was pretty you know very understanding and accepting right away and my mom was like supportive but had questions and she didn't say that's gonna be hard but the questions that she had right away implied yeah that that's gonna make things harder yeah and that like oh now you now we have to figure other stuff out are you gonna still have a family and what's that right you know what does this mean for your life and yeah people i I think that yeah it's a common thing of like hearing that and thinking
00:28:56
Speaker
Hey, your life has been harder than I thought it was. And that brings up sadness for some people. And also it will be harder too. I don't know what. She's still struggling with that too. Cause she's, she's one of those people that feels like it's a failure of her as a mother. If my sister and I have had like a bad experience or whatever, which I think is true for a lot of mothers. I think in her case, she.
00:29:21
Speaker
is at a loss for the responsibility that is on her. But I also think circumstantially very soon after that, I got into a seven year relationship with my ex. And I think that that for her in her mind was like, oh, he's just gay, but he's unwilling to say it. ah To which I say, in what universe is it easier to be bi than it is to be a gay man?
00:29:46
Speaker
I don't know. I don't understand that whole narrative, but somebody made that shit up. It's a very common assumption that I think people who listen to this podcast probably will understand the reality of like how complicated and it is to be bi and how biphobia may be more invisible, but it is as pervasive, if not more so, oh yeah and it's a little more insidious in a way, and then it's sometimes not as direct, but it comes in in ways you can't always see, and that can be insidious because you feel it without knowing what that is. No, and we have to talk about the social insidious nature of biphobia and biracial. But just to finish, first thing, yes, ah ah i yeah so sorry. so anyway
00:30:36
Speaker
um yes keep going a about I don't know. Timelines wise, it doesn't really matter. But several years ago, I finally found the right kind of therapy slash help, etc. And so I was able to heal from a lot of different kinds of trauma and and strengthen my resolve and myself and and all of those wonderful things that happen when you when you really lock in and you work on yourself. yeah So I did that really hardcore for a couple of years. um ah By the way, a lot of the time it's not even related to me, but of course it's always informed. um And coming out of that, I felt strongly, this is where my advocacy journey started.
00:31:21
Speaker
that as somebody who had healed and felt stronger as a person, that I needed to stand up for people that
00:31:44
Speaker
And so then you started to become an advocate. yeah so next so that When did that journey start and what does that entail? um i Yeah, it essentially started as as a Facebook post, to be honest. um I had like a light coach at the time that was sort of pushing me to do more leadership stuff because he saw how much I cared about other people, how empathetic I was and how much I had done work to strengthen my ability to like stand up yeah for myself and things like that. yeah And so I ended up posting on Facebook
00:32:18
Speaker
at the time. um no i was on faceing about yeah exactly no I posted to Facebook, which you have to understand is just to a mass conglomeration for me of like random people I went to high school and colleges with. and and like people I've worked with in the industry with, um from so many different projects ah project ah from all over the United States, just a crazy smattering of people, some family members.
Advocacy and Professional Balance
00:32:49
Speaker
Anyway, um and I read a long post about the fact I just started it like I am bi.
00:32:56
Speaker
And then I wrote very briefly in like two sentences what that experience was like and how proud I was of myself now. And that was kind of like my, ah as we always talk about is by people, like you come out so many different times. For me, that was me coming out as a stand for other people. um And during the pandemic, which was not that long ago, even though it feels like ages,
00:33:21
Speaker
I chose to do there' a similar thing on IG. And so... So the Facebook one was pre-pandemic? No, I think it was kind of right before the pandemic started. Or it might have been right when, yeah, social lockdown happened and everything. um You know, so that was kind of a good thing because then you get a lot of eyes on it. Yeah.
00:33:46
Speaker
mine out ah mark friends or family before that, but that was when it became sort of like public. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like we didn't meet until after that. I feel like we met post-pandemic. Well, yeah, I think that's true. I think we met at, yeah. It must have, because I didn't do much Ambi before. Maybe I went to one or two things before. No, I didn't either. Yeah. I think I went to like one. So you've done done quite a lot in a few years in this space in terms of the activism then, right?
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty active in AMI organizing and then now the task force and this. Yeah. yeah and i haven't not been an advocate for other things in my life. You know, I grew up volunteering for Habitat for Humanity and it's Duke Kitchens. I um did a lot of ah survivor um stuff with ah battered women's shelter and um but sexual abuse survivors ah in my late 20s and 30s. So I was kind of already dipping a toe in it.
00:34:47
Speaker
cool But I just actually finally had the emotional skill set to do more. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Such a mensch. So much good. We're good coming from a lovely Jewish person like yourself. When you said survivor, this is the weird thing, but like I used to work at Law and Order SVU and we've used this term survivor a lot and like, you know, we try not to use the term victim because feel-blaming and Survivor is empowering. And and that um word was about that. And now I don't work there anymore. And over the past year or two, I've been getting really into the TV show Survivor. sorry no Now that's what Survivor is. And I thought that you were talking about the game show Survivor. And side note, Survivor is a strangely, like,
00:35:35
Speaker
queer leaning audience kind of a show. I'm not sure why, but like I used to go to this gay board gamers club and they were obsessed with Survivor. Oh my god. Are you not? i' god Can you please get obsessed with it? We can watch i will watch anything with you because i we're friends and I think it'd be fun. Okay, but also on Survivor. Survivor is amazing and there used to be people used to hide their queerness on Survivor because they might have thought that would hurt them in the game now it's almost the opposite you need to be authentically yourself right away yeah otherwise people will find out later and know that you lied and so like coming out or not on survivor is a big like game decision now and it's really interesting and
00:36:21
Speaker
that isn't Well, isn't the first, isn't the famously the first season of Survivor? didn't Wasn't it won by a gay man? Yeah. he's yeah yeah and he And he came out quickly on his season, which I'm watching right now, because it was too soon to realize that, you know, what that would mean, but actually worked out for him in that case. But but then it happened where like,
00:36:44
Speaker
queer people were kind of ganged up on sometimes. And if you were out, you were an outcast. And now it's swung back the other way. yeah was There was a guy, there is a guy currently on who came out his pie in the first episode and seemed like a terrible, terrible player. His name was Andy. He kind of like broke down crying thinking that nobody liked him. And then everyone saw him as not a threat. And now he's survived multiple votes. And he's doing well, and he's playing better. and'm like I'm kind of like such an interesting social construct of the game. Yeah. It's very, it's fascinating. I mean, we could do a
00:37:35
Speaker
So. you do You're doing lots of activism. You do lots of other stuff. I'm trying. It's really fun. is it enough guide to ask for us still beexual It isn't enough. I enough. I said it isn't enough. I don't know. Is it enough? I don't know. What what have you changed in society yet so far? I don't know. I am proud to say that I got a text message from a friend of mine who was at a conference in London, and they um the writer that was holding the panel actually referenced this to all this tool as a necessary part of writing. And that felt really good to me. yeah But I am someone who holds myself to a really high standard. And so I have been fighting at studios for their DEI divisions to develop this tool as a
00:38:31
Speaker
commonplace, yeah you know, available thing for the writers rooms. And that's more important to me because that changes the game behind the scenes. Although, you know, sometimes I think like shouting to the void about certain things has made certain TV shows like Skew to like correct themselves in later seasons. I don't know that it's true, but I am shouting as loud as I can on behalf of our community. And when that kind of stuff comes up, I'm like, okay, great.
00:39:00
Speaker
You know, has anything changed that you've seen during the course of a show because of fan? Yeah, I again, I like I cannot tell 100 percent of where it comes from. And I can i can only tell you rumors that I've heard from people I know in our circles. um But there's a Will and Grace apology episode in the reboot of it that is entirely um directed at how they treated my people from majority in that show. Cool. um And it's a very self-aware apology, in my opinion. Nice. Also, sex education ah did a terrible job after having one of their characters come out as bi, is actually treating him as bi. In fact, they call him gay for several seasons after that. But then all of a sudden, in the final season of the show, which is a mess, by the way, we talk about that. Oh, I haven't seen it. I heard that show was great. but
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean I like a lot of things about the show, but in the last season they like reconfirmed his sexuality again, which I felt like was... I hope people reading or educating themselves in the writer's room or whatever, yeah um because yeah, I again can't confirm that that's true, but i just I believe that people can grow and change. I think so too. I haven't watched all of Sex and the City of either iteration, but I've seen a decent amount of both and yeah that would be an interesting conclusion.
00:40:32
Speaker
dealt with bisexuality on the new version and Miranda's by and whatever, right? like Yeah. And I've been told that it's, I haven't watched any of the new seasons. I've been told that they're still living in the not really great representation space. Yeah. I saw some of it and I was like, okay, it's cool. She's by and they're kind of what I saw made sense. Yeah. But I didn't see all of it and I,
00:40:57
Speaker
didn't get much from, I don't know, there was probably stuff missing and I didn't hear much from the other characters and I didn't hear any kind of anything about male bisexuality, certainly. No. It was all just Miranda-centric.
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah. Which is good. I'm glad they're doing that. It's great. Yeah. Well, we'll get into some specific examples in a minute. Before we dive into this tool, which is amazing, it's very colorful. I printed a black and white version, and then you brought a colorful version. I brought you a colored version, yeah. And shout out to a very dear friend of mine, Haley Kime, who I think because of being friends with me and seeing what I was doing in the world actually discovered and then fell in love with the woman. So now she realized that she's bi as well, which makes me really happy because yeah she's living her best life. She's a designer and she did all of the graphic design things. Oh, cool. Well, look yeah it looks very pretty and it has the bi colors, which is appropriate. And that's our mission as bi advocates, right? Is to turn more people back.
00:42:00
Speaker
Right. Exactly. That's like, if we can get better representation, great. But if we start at the source of just, like, make more people buy, then they'll all trickle up. Yes. Right? The amount of their friends who, like, realized that they were buying and keep thinking, am I turning them by? You start to have that conversation with yourself. It's not actually true, but in your head you're like, maybe I'm just happy to be the person that gave them the space to realize who they really are. Or to be open to falling in love with somebody that they had never thought they would be.
00:42:30
Speaker
Indeed, giving them the space, giving them the emotional you us space to explore that. We're also giving them a hand if they need to try something out. I'm here, I'm here. Any curious quote straight guys out there? Give me up. Rob is the, let me help you explain sexuality for the first time if you're straight. Call me up. All my curious welcome.
00:42:57
Speaker
Please come, this is part of my mission. Please come, literally. Yeah, there you go. Please come. Please come with me. Rob's here for you. Okay. So, before we actually dive into the tool, what's it like working at Disney or the other places you've worked as you've realized what needs to happen? like what ah What are the challenges there? like What's the lay of the land, sort of?
00:43:23
Speaker
that before we dive into this? Yeah. um big question no It's a big question. yeah it's i It's complicated. you know um It's an interesting parallel to say that I was like doing starting to do more and more advocacy work and then like you have this persona that people make up about you at work.
00:43:47
Speaker
And the two are, like, they're parallels, but they're not interwoven. And what's interesting is is I ran AFI's film festival for several years in Hollywood, and that's how I've worked with so many celebrities. um Eighty seventy-five to eighty percent of them. Yeah, so many regular events. Anyway, um and just lovely experiences. But I like in that setting,
00:44:13
Speaker
I did not feel like it mattered, so I was way more expressive and open and like out and proud about it. And ah it really didn't ever affect anything. ah you know and when you But when you're working at studios, like when I was at other studios,
00:44:37
Speaker
It feels like, I'm sure many buy people, I mean, we know this, right? We know that buy people like aren't necessarily out of work. And it's kind of the same thing where you want It's like you're proud of yourself and you are perfectly happy to be who you are, but you put guardrails on because you don't know what people's hang-ups are yeah with your identity. And so you choose not to make that. You're calculating, yeah basically.
00:45:10
Speaker
Because in this industry, you don't want to get passed up for a promotion. You don't want to get passed up for somebody to want to hire you on their next thing at a different level and all of that. All of that that goes into what it's like working in our industry. You don't want to make that calculated risk because you don't want to sacrifice your career. yeah And by the way, shout out to all actors slash celebrities that are dealing with this exact same thing yeah in terms of coming out.
00:45:38
Speaker
um it's It's, I feel like it's the same for me, right? I mean, there are, again, places that it it really didn't matter and people were super supportive. And there are spaces where I am making that calculated decision to not test that water. Yeah, I totally get that. And it's also like, people may be outwardly supportive, but it can also, there's a risk still. When there is outward support of
00:46:09
Speaker
what do people think or how do they then change their attitudes toward you or how they talk to you or what they want to share. Like, I hope things are getting better, but when I was at SPU for seven years, I didn't realize I was bi for the first few of those, but then I was there when I realized and when I started exploring with men. And the year that I came out was my final year there. And I don't think it's a coincidence that that happened that way, that like,
00:46:39
Speaker
I may have come out sooner, but it wasn't a really open environment in that way, not just by Phobic, but everything. It was a little bit like everyone kind of fit into their lane there, yeah or where you risked being seen as you know something, and and you risked being ostracized. and And there were definitely no bi people specifically that I knew of, although now I know of multiple who came out after they left. So I think none of that's a coincidence. And even when I didn't tell some people before in the last year that I was there, those those people were all very supportive personally. But I don't know, I don't know what other people thought. I don't know what my boss thought. I never talked to him about, I never talked to the higher ups about it. And we're dealing with sex and sexuality and storylines about, it I don't know, it's a double up story. Part of me wishes I'd come out more
00:47:38
Speaker
and sooner and been able to talk about that story. because i mean you and they're pitching stories i mean so you're You're literally creative and I've experienced that to a lesser degree and you know with some writing producing projects um but I mean everything you said which is like you don't really know how people feel and and the other thing that I want to talk about in terms of you know, work is they don't really identify LGBTQ plus people as
00:48:11
Speaker
being like good representations of diversity, right? So you're not like, you know, if you're putting a crew together, people aren't being like, oh, we're gonna assume that you may be, you know, um casting or or or hiring a certain percentage of LGBTQ plus people to work on this. It's like, unless that person is like out and proud or their person of color, it doesn't like count in the statistics.
00:48:40
Speaker
And I always make the argument, and I've made this argument with multiple HRs, that you have to force LGBTQ plus people to come out in order to understand that they're representing a certain diversity segment of the population and right on whatever your project is. right And it's a really, really terrible kind of place to live yeah because it's really unfair.
00:49:04
Speaker
and um And it's also unfair that you know people of color have to like that they have to care about them based on the fact that they have a different skin color. right It's awful. And then they have to be the representative of that. and that's becomes the role and the job. Yeah, and I talked about that in my seminar, right? I talked about like in the writers room so much of what we've seen in the last like four or five years during the TV Renaissance is the like super diverse one person like the room of like 10 white straight dudes and then there's like one. one who everything
00:49:39
Speaker
differently able person of color in the LGBTQ plus community who's also like, I don't know. on binary depend not Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, how is this person fulfilling the need for diversity in this thing, like by themselves, but they're one voice against, you know, the masses. It's unfair. And that was, I mean, and especially for me coming out around that time, like part of me wishes I could have been a better advocate and I was more out to do that. But that this was like the time where I couldn't be more out because I was so scared. And it like yeah right as I was realizing it and starting to say things and pitch storylines, that was when I was like most scared to come out and actually be with myself. So it was an important time, but a scary time. And also one more thing is like, then you also run the risk of being the PC police.
00:50:32
Speaker
which is what a showrunner I worked for called me. When I wasn't even out, but I would say things yeah like, maybe this character is bi, not gay, as we're calling him, you know for example, or other things. yeah and i say Don't say the word tranny. And I was called the PC police. And especially if there's that one person fulfilling these diversity roles, that's how they will be looked at often by the straight white man in charge.
00:50:59
Speaker
Yeah. And i think um I think all of that is always true. And then something else that I sort of became aware of is when I'm ah giving, like when I'm thinking about pitching story ideas about the character that I want to be by, then I'm having my own internalized internalized call biphobia are just like generally like how I'm representing the community, but you have that conversation with yourself where you're like, is this enough? Is this enough of a bi story? Is this going to represent our community well enough? Yeah, like that kind of a thing. So then, and I'm sure people in the other diversity, you know, places are having the exact same thing where it's like, how does this person represent the entire community? Is it even fair
00:51:47
Speaker
that you know you write one character because there's one person in the room that's fighting for that character and then that person is representing an entire community. I mean it doesn't make any sense. there for Speaking from their one person experience to some extent and it's also like we'll get into it but it's like what is what does it even mean to represent five people well?
00:52:08
Speaker
right like it does that mean a positive representation of the person or does that mean an accurate representation of what you struggle with right and like. There are i feel like there are many ways to represent us accurately and then it's like so what what is the most useful and and so that lets.
00:52:28
Speaker
Let's go through it. Yes. well And on that note, I want to say something that I don't think is in the guide, but I i think it's something that I realized in writing the guide, which is it is basically impossible to stereotype by people. Like we have been negative stereotypes as portrayed in the media up to date, right? But I think it's impossible for us to look a certain way and act a certain way such that as a comparison the like gay best friend which is such a stereotype that we've seen counter like countless amount of times now on film and television right but like a straight person looks at that and understands that that's what a gay person is right it's not what all gay people are like right but they can associate that with a gay person and i realized you can't do that to a bi person because we're not
00:53:18
Speaker
We're not wired that way. We're wired to be expansive yeah and more and both and, and all of those things. And so you can't just say, this is what a bi person is like. Well, you go to an AMBI event, you see this incredible diversity. yeah and then When I went to my request in New York, that was a big takeaway at first was like, Oh my God.
00:53:41
Speaker
Every age group is represented. Every race is represented. yeah Every ability and disability. yeah like All the gender spectrum and everything. I couldn't believe how diverse the room was. It was yeah one of the most diverse rooms I had been in in my life.
00:53:55
Speaker
Yeah, and that's every biospace I've ever been in. And then you go to, like, the Abbey, the gay person, you know. And that's still to the status. It's very specific. You see a lot of the same thing that I enjoy seeing. Sure, yeah. I'm not saying I don't enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with it, Rob. Nothing wrong with it. Live your truth. To each their own. But, you know, it is more, it's more modeling. It's not a model, but it's more, yeah, there's less. Totally.
00:54:31
Speaker
Here we go. Spy plus America's, a guide to authentic representation in storytelling. And look how colorful it is. And look how un-colorful mine was. And we won't use that. And look how small. See, this is me saving my imprinting foresaw, then a page in black and white. And this is Aaron's Disney moment.
00:54:54
Speaker
but look it's colorful It's a thick piece of paper, but it's double-sided. It is double-sided. We gotta save. and We're eco-friendly. It's not all about money. It's about saving the planet. What is rewrite the byline and still bisexual? but like How did you get involved with this before we get into it?
00:55:18
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Um, uh, so as you know, cause I think you went to both or at least one of them. Anyway, I have hit a to, uh, in early 2023.
00:55:34
Speaker
And all I really wanted to do is, you know, for the last several years that you and I have been going to all these fun events and, you know, hanging out with all these cool bi people in different spaces, you know, everybody was always talking about like what they were watching. Because that's, by the way, a natural thing. Great people do it. Anybody does it, right? Yeah. Yeah. um and i from my own like for my own self wanted to like better throw out ideas because people kept being like oh well you work in the industry so like what should I be watching yeah and I realized I didn't have an answer and so again taking responsibility I chose to like start watching as much stuff that people in various
00:56:18
Speaker
blogs and articles and all, you know, all these, you know, listicles and all the other stuff had reported as being like, I representation. And so I went down that rabbit hole and then I really wanted to talk about it in a setting like M by with just by people to both inform them what the industry's like investment and like what that experience and where we were as an industry and and how that played into what was on the screen. And then I wanted to talk about what hi e'stein what I what the stereotypes were. And a lot of those conversations just sort of melded into, would eventually become this, but started as a seminar where I was like,
00:57:05
Speaker
I think there are at least 10 terrible representations of us as a community. And also, you know, I picked like a couple of like good shows essentially for that seminar, but it evolved. so Even the second time I did the seminar via Zoom for a more international audience in early March of this year, um,
00:57:31
Speaker
i I like involved it and I made it into more because i I really wanted to stay with the by joy of it and I wanted to focus on the few good representations or, or maybe more like what was possible for people and again going back to my personal story, I just I'm still waiting, but I really want to see a character that feels like me. yeah Just like I want everyone to have that experience, but especially in our community because we're so erased in everyday society. yeah so And that's, by the way, who we were talking about earlier. The social, insidious nature of biphobia and biracial is that everything about our society, really since the 40s and 50s especially, has been purposefully, insidiously,
00:58:17
Speaker
like planned to erase us as a community. yeah So who your partner is dictates whether you're straight or gay. The fact that when people think about a human being, their default is to think of straight or gay. Like that all of those binaries is all interwoven to how we just have never existed in the first place.
Importance of Bi Representation in Media
00:58:37
Speaker
So the fact that we don't have representation doubles down on it.
00:58:41
Speaker
yeah because the invisibility is what I think was particularly damaging to me as a child because I just didn't know what was happening to me. I didn't understand what bi was. And again, I didn't hear the words until I was 19. So all that to being said, I want to change that. I believe that it can be changed, first and foremost. I believe it should be changed. And um given where I am, who I am,
00:59:08
Speaker
in my career, I felt like if no one else is going to do this, then I will. And essentially, k Christina, who's the owner and founder of Rewrite the Byline, she's amazing. She approached me after the AMBI seminar that I did in 2023 and said, I would really like to make this like a real thing. yeah And so she and i yeah so she and I got together and I continued to dive even deeper and watch even more representation or supposed representation of our community, and just kept going. And interestingly, um going from you know spending like maybe two years watching stuff, and then and then k Christina approached me and said, hey, let's put this in a real thing.
00:59:57
Speaker
I then watched even more stuff, and a lot of that had to do with it was the end of the year, so a lot of the Oscar race stuff was happening as well. Well, it turns out there was a lot of terrible representation in the Oscars last year. And still great movies, by the way. But it was like, it was, it reaffirmed what Christine and I were doing was valid and important. And and anyway, so we started the journey. There's just always, yeah, and still calm down.
01:00:26
Speaker
ah butby I mean talk about like when you're sometimes when you're on when you're advocating for something you wonder if people care or you wonder if it really matters or there's even like in my opinion with bi people um We have been taught, I don't know by whom, to settle in my experience, watching our community, to settle for like the lowest common denominator of representation and what I feel we really deserve. And again, that's one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast with you. We deserve more. We can't say that enough.
01:01:03
Speaker
So much more, there are thousands of examples of gay people in film and television now. Trans people have had their own shows that were show run by trans people. We are struggling with small, like, little bites of stuff that we have. yeah And the reason I say that is I, over the course of literally just Christine and I deciding to write this thing, which was a six month, six to seven month process to get it right,
01:01:32
Speaker
little things would continue to come up. Just as an example, in February, there was an article posted on Variety that was like top whatever like 50 romance films of all time or something and call me by your name was on that and it was referred to as a gay love story if you've seen the movie they are clearly not gay um very bisexual very bisexual movie yes one thank you which is why it exists in one of the categories here but it was like reaffirming that like variety was still having a conversation that that's still a gay film which is not
01:02:09
Speaker
and um And so it just kind of what we're doing was important important and right. And so that's the stuff that fuels me. Yeah. i I totally agree. Like as much as there is some progress that's visible lately, like when you look at the statistics that we'll get into, it's still very small. And that was me growing up, was like I saw a ton of gay representation and it didn't feel like me. I got it, I accepted it, I yeah enjoyed it, I have always been like an ally, but I was like, oh well that's not me. yeah So therefore I'm straight because I'm not gay. And I didn't see any bi representation, never heard the word on TV or
01:02:50
Speaker
in a movie, maybe maybe here and there, but not even, not the word. I never saw a real sexual fluidity that was like embraced or celebrated. yeah And that's part of it. And I remember like why I didn't come out. And I remember hearing Stephanie Beatrice on Brooklyn Nine-Nine and say the word multiple times. I wasn't the first bi person I had seen, but that was maybe the first time on like a network comedy that I heard the word. And I cried hearing that.
01:03:20
Speaker
and And there are other examples of like the first time a character was by that just really resonated with me in a deep way, like even in Game of Thrones, which is like kind of dumb, but also it felt really meaningful to me at that moment when that came out. Yeah, yeah no. And i I remember seeing Stephanie on a panel talking about how the writers actually brought her in the room to write the coming out scene. And when she got the script,
01:03:50
Speaker
She was so touched that she started to cry when she first read it because they said the word by like four or five times in like a pinch and a half scene. And that was so meaningful to her. yeah And then it was meaningful to you. And that's the kind of stuff that we're talking about, right? Is like breaking us into the conversation. If you make it authentic from the beginning, from inception of the story, right and then it will work better than when you just use it as a plot device and the people writing it are not by.
01:04:20
Speaker
Ah, we'll get into that. Okay, we will.
01:04:31
Speaker
We've been saying we'll get into it, so let's get into it. This may be part two, our season for Nell. Welcome back. If that is indeed the split point, welcome back. I'm still here with Aaron Hammersley. He authored the guide to authentic representation in storytelling for bi-plus narratives.
01:04:52
Speaker
So we got this quote here. Bisexuality doesn't mean halfway between gay and straight. It is its own identity. Evan Rachel Wood said that. She's bi. My bi hero. Oh, I feel like I knew she She's one of those few celebrities, and this is, ah again, part of our industry and like how we live in. She like is never asked about her sexuality because she traditionally has been in ah straight, up-haring relationships.
01:05:19
Speaker
but She is always been out and proud about it, yeah but they even like a rare. Yeah. Like people don't care. Like people talk to her about it. They want to interview her about it. It's, you know, but I mean, I think my friend and I always joke that she's always like, did you know i' buy I'm bi? I'm bi by the way. Did you know I'm bi? Like, you know, I love it. That's a, that's the bi thing is to be like,
01:05:41
Speaker
always telling people. yeah ah so you and That's interesting that LGBT inclusive movies earn more revenue at the box office, 29% more, which makes sense oh yeah because we're a growing segment of the population. We are. population And we also largely have disposable incomes um and ah traditionally invest in things that we see ourselves in or we see as productive for ourselves. Makes sense.
01:06:07
Speaker
This is a cool slide, too, just because it's in the slide and not the actual analytics. But this Disney asked for this, actually, because what they wanted is they wanted a clear indication of what the industry was missing and the potential of our community to elevate, expand, you know, prophetize things uh-huh well is it you know is it like oh if we can see the market for this that's more attractive to people it will definitely yeah it's definitely like a yeah that's kind of what it is it's a um hey this is the money you're missing out of you know right and it it came as like uh you know as an example of like how you know marvel did black panther and that was you huge huge movies so much money and it was like this is what
01:06:59
Speaker
white people in the industry have never seen before, which is that, like, there's a whole segment of society that wants to support good things that represent them, yeah and they did. Right. Capitalism is not the best thing in the world, but if we're using it for inclusivity, correct then at least it has some good purpose to it. yeah And also, because, as it says here, one in ten gen z of Gen Z identifies by, I mean, and it's bi is growing more and more among young people to a such a degree, like whatever's younger than Gen Z is like more bi. Right, do you even get to talk, you know you and I have these like favorite statistics conversations. Oh yeah, well I was gonna ask also because you say 60% of LGBT plus adults identify as bi.
01:07:45
Speaker
I thought it was 57%. These are is the closest new statistics that we have. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, it's growing. Well, like, we were talking a couple weeks ago, like this, I think I didn't look this up, but I think it's the first US census that has sexuality on it. Oh, yeah. And allows you to identify as bi on that sexuality. So that's exciting.
01:08:10
Speaker
and i think we have those results we have um i guess we will at some point right because the census has to be published publicly i think so it's not already it's 24 but it'll be interesting because she looked at up i think one of the things that i would say too when i'm pitching to studios or what i'm talking about by experience needing to be seen is that we don't actually know the real numbers. We just know that they're more than what we have, yeah but we have no idea how much more, right? yeah But there's some fluidity to the fact that like,
01:08:43
Speaker
I don't know, whatever that statistic is you gave me, that's like 80% of all bi men are in like, ah relate married men are in relationships with women, so it looks like a straight relationship, even though all of those people are bi. I mean, how many people in our society who've been persecuted for whatever reason don't want to come out of the closet as bi, and you have an entire segment of society that's not identifying on paper as this thing, so we can't say,
01:09:10
Speaker
that those people are in the community, but we know that they are. But they're there somewhere. They're there somewhere. We just have no idea how many there are because they're unwilling and they don't feel safe coming out. Right. Well, we know that by people, they're the least likely to be out. Among by women, it's in the 20% range, 20 something, and among by men, it's like 12 to 15% are out. And that's people who on some level in their mind identify as bi but are not out. And as we know from yeah both of our stories, how many more people are there who may be sexually fluid but aren't even at the awareness stage yet or are doing the thing where they've noticed it but
01:09:54
Speaker
It's not important. yeah It's not part of their identity. they're married They're happily married monogamous, and they're not thinking about that much. But had they grown up at a different time in a different place, maybe that would be part of their identity, even if they end up in the monogamous relationship. like So there's a lot.
01:10:14
Speaker
more potential there than the numbers will ever show, I think. but But among young people, it is becoming more accepted and therefore you're seeing it more. And so it'll hopefully trickle up. ah And then this is just interesting. It's like you have this statistic. From 2014 to 2022, there were only 55 bi-speaking characters out of 38,000 speaking characters in top-grossing movies.
01:10:41
Speaker
which amounts to 0.14% of speaking characters. So I'm sure there's a lot of speaking characters whose sexuality is not identified at all, correct but but still, that's very small. 0.14%. We can do better than that.
01:10:57
Speaker
ah Let's keep going. What else
Intersectionality in Bi Storytelling
01:11:01
Speaker
is in here? Um, we talked about this. We talked about who we are. We talked about all this stuff. Um, you know, I'm queer. I'm done with the label wars. So we're done with that. It's all the same by Pam queer is all great. Whatever your particular identity is, it's all under the lovely by umbrella. We all love each other. So what do you want to do first, your recommendations or go through some examples? Let's do the recommendations first. Let's do the broad stuff.
01:11:28
Speaker
I mean, I want to talk about these shows, too. No, we shouldn't. Okay, so your main recommendation is my favorite one, and it's one we just kind of mentioned, but it's like...
01:11:40
Speaker
not just about what ends up on screen, it's about who's in the writer's room and yeah who's consulting at the story level. yeah We need to hire more bi people in writer's rooms. We specifically need to hire Rob. um you know I would like to sell some stuff too. but i I think we're at the place right now where we have to equalize the people in the room. So while I don't ah think largely that there's it is possible for somebody who is straight to tell a very good bi story in a TV show or a film, I would rather this moment in time hire more people like us to tell our own authentic stories so that, yeah. Yeah. And how do how do you balance that with like,
01:12:30
Speaker
focusing on what the show is about. Does that make sense? Where it's like, okay, Brooklyn Nine-Nine is the example here. But let's say you have a show that's not about sexuality, yeah but there are people exploring sex and sexuality and like relationships and dating. like how do you What do you say to the showrunner who is doing a medical drama and he's deciding between hiring He's deciding who to hire and wants experts on the subject, but also there's maybe bi characters and wants to incorporate authenticity on that too. Like, how do you think about the makeup of ah root but a Maybe this doesn't answer your question, but here's how I'd like to answer your question. like ah I believe that having a bi person in the room that can hold more than one thing true at the same time, which by the way, I think is the most beautiful thing about bi people.
01:13:26
Speaker
I think having a writer in the room will naturally elevate your other characters in multiple ways. And then when you want to have by characters in the room, they're also going to be able to do that for you. But in a way that because they have been supported and have been allowed to influence the stories of other characters in the show. Yeah.
01:13:48
Speaker
they're respected when they want to tell a bi story. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, and it it touches on something very true for me. And I think for a lot of bi people is like,
01:14:01
Speaker
the experience we've had in our lives of being bi gives us a, not maybe not everyone, it affects different people differently, but for me, and I think many people I've met, it gives you like an ability to hold lots of points of view at the same time to reconcile conflicting ideas in a really complex, yeah you know, interesting way. And you don't, you end up writing less stuff that's like,
01:14:30
Speaker
arch enemy versus pure yeah hero, you write the more complicated, real shit. And so like, I think if that's the tone of a show you're going for, a by point of view helps you, regardless of sexuality, it helps you think about these, those kinds of concepts. I think that we're great as people who have felt felt marginalized in writing complexities into characters, right? like I believe that we should have by villains, and I say that knowing that I wrote about how terrible it is that we're represented that way, but i but also by heroes, and we've had so few by heroes that it's, you know, like everything I feel like has to be in balance, and again, like us, to your point, being able to hold that complexity is elevating everybody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then we have by heroes like Ober and Martel, and he gets his eyes squished out at a horrible time. Oh my god, yeah. We'll get to that. It's it's in the guide too.
01:15:28
Speaker
I really feel there were very few places we were unwilling to go with this guy. In fact, I think at one point, Christine and I had to have a conversation where we had to be like, we have to really speak in the both and because for me, some of when i the section that's on misrepresentations was coming from a place of we deserve better as a community. And so I was willing to be the bad guy and call people out. And after Christine and I had a conversation, we did soften some of the things because I want people to know that anytime they see themselves in a character, whether we think it's bad representation or not, it is valid. yeah And I think that's important. And there are great shows and films that I reference in the case studies
01:16:16
Speaker
that I actually love. In fact, quite a lot of them are shows and movies that I love. yeah And also I hate the bi representation in them. So again, as a bi person, I'm holding all the one thing true at the same time. yeah But straight people have a harder time with that. yeah So we we kind of had to warm them up in some ways in the way that we wrote it.
01:16:36
Speaker
Well, speaking of, that's a, this is a great example of that Fleabag, which I think is like an incredible show. It's an incredible show. leebag And who, I don't, I would, I still would not have ever been a fly on the wall when they pitched that show. Like it's a show that's kind of about nothing and yeah also just a person. Like, yeah. And the show is such a lovely little two season stint. It's great. Well, it's a show that shows that like authenticity and originality and like just really being yourself is yeah interesting, is fascinating. I mean, the character alone is interesting. And so I love that show. and And your recommendation overall, and this is an example of it, is if the audience doesn't know if a character is bi, then we're not really changing the narrative for bi people. And so your recommendation is just say bi.
01:17:26
Speaker
to say the word. And so as as amazing as Fleabag was and bisexual as it may have been, they didn't use that word. And so what's the- To be clear, there are countless, yeah countless. It's not just the one that's right here. There are so many like that. It goes back to what I said about stereotyping too, right? Like it was easier for people outside of the community to understand what a gay person looked like because in the beginning,
01:17:53
Speaker
they did a lot of coming out stories where they very clearly said that they were gay. They made a thing about it. They were sensitive to that character's experience coming out as bi, right? Even Will and Grace reinforces that the characters are gay in basically every single episode. They are dating somebody new and it's always a guy. There's that. If a woman comes up, it's a guy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that show also dealt with their work life and all these other things, but it was something that was ingrained in the characters from the beginning. It was something, I want to use the word obvious, to anyone who was watching the show. And we as bi people have been robbed of that.
01:18:38
Speaker
Sorry, Rob. um Basically the entire history of film and television as far as I can tell. Right. Yeah. Right. I mean, yeah, only only very recently have I seen shows that I feel like that character is explicitly and consistently by. Yeah. And it's part of it. Yeah. But only if only ah I can count them on my hand, I feel like. Yeah, I think that's probably true. And even in that circumstance, it depends on how much you think it has staying power for a non-buy person as the show moves on or as like they're not saying the word as constantly. Right. and It also makes me think of like the why people write stuff and don't use the word buy. and
01:19:25
Speaker
whether it's their whether it's in them or whether it's what they think viewers will imagine, it's like I think a lot more people have had these kind of experiences with fluidity. There are more of those people than there are people who use the word by for themselves. yeah And so if you are in that group or if you know a lot of people in that group who maybe get fluidity but aren't ready for the word by for themselves,
01:19:53
Speaker
then it kind of makes sense that you would gravitate for that of just like you showing floating people without having them name it. And that then reinforces yeah the exact invisibility that it's based on. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And this doesn't, by the way, have anything, in my opinion, to do with the label wars, because to me, it's not about the label. You could still identify somebody as having a buy experience and wanting to have buy experiences.
01:20:22
Speaker
without having to have them self-label but you're still using the word by because we're trying to do what in my opinion still hasn't been done which is um destigmatize the word that's exactly what came we're not there stigmatized we're not there yeah we should be there but we're not right you know right and that right whether exactly it's if If there's some aversion for the character to not use that label, fine. Do things from a character point of view. That's good writing. is like What would this real character do in this situation, in this time and place? So that makes sense. But as a writer, you do want to think about, like what are you contributing to invisibility? or are yeah
01:21:05
Speaker
De-stigmatizing and there are ways to de-stigmatize even while portraying a character who is afraid of stigma Yeah, you can do both. Yeah, you're gonna hold space for both Yeah, if we have I always use the example we have been able to do these things for other Identities of humans. Yeah, right right, but we have chosen actively as a society to not do that for my people And in my opinion, why do you think?
01:21:33
Speaker
that choice is made differently for but is it like less Does it just seem like it's less important to people? or I think it's, uh, I think it comes down to the narratives, right? I mean, as a society, we're still very attached to binaries, you know, um, a lot of religious, you know, takeover in the last 250 years historically has shifted all of humanity away from more fluid experiences of relationships into like this very stoic, yeah you know, straight or not straight. Um, and I think, uh,
01:22:07
Speaker
when the gay community was fighting for its rights, which side note was started by bi people, um hi they they contributed to the conversation by not, by what they considered to be not muddying the waters, which is going straight or gay, right? And not holding space for bi or trans people or people who are gender fluid, you know? Right. Yeah. so for For reasons that are understandable, but yeah But yeah, heard us. The next um sort of recommendation you have, expand opportunities and empower new voices. And I think relatedly, intersectionality not only matters, but it is crucial to buy storytelling. So why why explain that? Why is this important?
01:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I have said before, but no move to buy people are alike yeah in every way. And I think we're past the point where we have to tell like, gay,
01:23:06
Speaker
affluent or I'm sorry not gay but like I don't think we need like a character who's like white and from a middle-class home that is you know bi like you can do that but what I'm saying is I think as a society we have learned that like there's space for people who look different or different yeah ethnicities who have different backgrounds, you know, and it doesn't mean that you can't do both. And we should do both yeah because capturing a more full experience from the get-go as opposed to sort of whitewashing the buy experience in order to get where like gay has gotten in our society, I feel is unnecessary. Yeah. I think that we know better now as an industry. And so I feel that that intersectionality should be inherent to us moving forward. Yeah, makes sense.
01:23:58
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Minzer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.