Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Bi+ Stories Matter with Aaron Hammersly (Season Finale!)
1.1k Plays8 days ago
This week features part two of my chat with Aaron Hammersly, filmmaker and production executive at Disney, board member on the LA Bi+ Task Force, and outspoken advocate for the LGBTQ+ community, working especially for more inclusive representation in front of and behind the camera. In this episode, we continued discussing “Bi+ Narratives: A Guide to Authentic Representation in Storytelling”, the first comprehensive guide to portraying bi+ characters in film and television, which Aaron co-authored, diving into dozens of case studies of bi+ representation in the current film & TV landscape (like Schitt’s Creek, Heartstopper, Game of Thrones, Call Me By Your Name, Baby Reindeer, and many more), what they’re doing well, what’s backwards or harmful, what’s missing, and what we’d ideally like to see in the future. We also discussed the “manic pixie bi boy” trend, and finally we went through the guide’s test for creatives to determine if what they’re producing is authentic Bi+ representation.
Thanks for listening to season 8 of Two Bi Guys (By One Bi Guy)! We’ll be back in 2025!
Get Magic Mind at 50% off with this Black Friday offer, available only through my link until December 6th: https://magicmind.com/biguysbf
Follow Aaron on IG: https://www.instagram.com/secretsyrin/
The Bi+ Narratives Guide: https://www.rewritethebiline.com/bi-test
“Manic Pixie Bi Boys”: https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/the-manic-pixie-bi-boys
Recommended
Transcript
Season 8 finale: Thank you, listeners!
00:00:12
Speaker
everyone, welcome to the season 8 finale of Two Bye Guys. I can't believe we have another season in the books. This is the 81st episode of this show. I can hardly believe it. What a run it's been and there will be more next year, I promise. It's been a busy year, it's been a busy five years since I started this podcast and there's lots more work to do ahead. Thank you to everyone who listens and who reaches out to tell me what these conversations have meant to them and to everyone who's been reading my book and letting me know how those stories have impacted you.
00:00:46
Speaker
It's really been amazing work and I'm so glad that it's out there and helping people and spreading by visibility and awareness because we are a hidden majority, I believe, and we have so much to teach the world once we accept and embrace ourselves. So thank
Interview with Aaron Hammersley, Part 2
00:01:01
Speaker
you all for listening. Today we have the second half of my interview with Aaron Hammersley.
00:01:05
Speaker
who wrote the bi narratives guide for authentic representation and storytelling. Hopefully you heard the first part of our chat last week, we went through his bi journey and we started diving into the guide. We got through some of the recommendations in the guide, like if the audience does not know that the character is bi,
00:01:23
Speaker
we're not really changing the narrative for bi people, are we? Stuff like that. If you didn't, go back and listen, it's good. And then last time we started to get into the case studies, shows that are either doing bi representation really well or shows that are falling short. Of course, most shows and movies are somewhere in between. They're representing us in some way, but there's room to improve. It's a spectrum, like everything.
00:01:46
Speaker
So today we continue discussing a lot of those case studies. That's a majority of this episode. We talked about shows like Schitt's Creek, Heartstopper, Game of Thrones, Baby Reindeer, movies like Call Me By Your Name, many, many more. And I really encourage you to go check out the actual guide itself because there's even more stuff that we didn't have a chance to talk about. There's a link in the show notes to the guide. We also talked about this manic pixie by-boy trend.
00:02:14
Speaker
that has been cropping up over the last few years. There's an article about that in Queer Majority that I thought was interesting, so we talked about that. And then finally we went through the guides test for creatives, writers, producers, e etc., to determine if what you're producing is authentic by representation and if there are ways to push it even further. And like I said in the interview with Aaron,
00:02:37
Speaker
This isn't like a don't do this, don't do that kind of a PC police guide. It's about how to write good stories and write real characters who are authentic and meaningful. So it's not just a do and don't. It's a really good guide if you're a writer or a producer to actually tell good stories. So stay tuned for that in a minute before we get there.
00:02:58
Speaker
I just want to announce a Black Friday special for my coaching practice.
Special Black Friday offers
00:03:03
Speaker
A single session with me is $250. A nine session package is $1,800, so they averaged to $200. But for a limited time, between now, the moment you're hearing this, and the end of the year, December 31st, individual sessions are $200 each, and the nine session coaching package is $1,500.
00:03:21
Speaker
So, normally the sessions in the package average out to 200, but now you can get any number of sessions for 200 or save even more if you want to do the nine sessions, which I think is a great amount of coaching to really dive deep into these issues, gain a lot of awareness, set some goals, put the plans in action, and then there's still time to see those plans in action and reevaluate and make a new plan moving forward if needed. and Most of my clients do the nine session package, but of course, however many you want to do, maybe you want to just start with one or two, feel free. And right now you get that pricing with any number of sessions. So head to my website. If you're interested, robertbrookescohen.com. I'm off most of this week for Thanksgiving, but I'm back after Thanksgiving and you can schedule a free intro call with me. They're 25 to 30 minute intro calls. No obligation to purchase the coaching. We meet, we talk about what we could work on in coaching. And I would love to meet more of you. Also, there's group coaching available in December. There are no more dates in November. My calendar got too busy, but I'm doing it twice in December. And then I have some new ideas for next year about group coaching and other kinds of workshops and seminars. So stay tuned. I'll announce it on the podcast in January or whenever I'm back. I will be back at some point soon in 2025, but I will take the rest of the year off. Thank you.
00:04:43
Speaker
If you have any ideas for this podcast, guests you want to see, I'm always thinking of new things to do with this podcast. This season was a little different. I did longer interviews and split them up. Last season, we did book season. The season before that, I interviewed bi-married men. So we could change it up. Let me know. DM me on social media and tell me what you're most interested in and what you'd like to see more of. I'm very open to your suggestions.
00:05:07
Speaker
As discussed last week, I hope you're taking care of yourselves and your mental health. There's lots of work to be done on ourselves and in our community in the years to come. And so take this end of the year period to rest, recharge, recuperate. Coaching is a great way to work through some blocks if needed.
00:05:24
Speaker
Another thing that I've been doing is taking my daily dose of Magic Mind. It's a mental performance shot that has really helped me calm and smooth my days out. I'm pretty much off caffeine at the moment, in part thanks to Magic Mind, but even if you do drink caffeine, it works really well with the caffeine to time delay it.
00:05:41
Speaker
so that you only need one or two cups in the morning, not four, five, six, seven. I've been using Magic Mind for over a month now, and I really have been seeing the benefits, especially the more that I use it. And I love the taste in the morning. I'm really just into that routine.
00:05:56
Speaker
But the more I've used it, the more grounded I feel, centered I feel, focused when I'm working, but also able to turn off the stress of the day when needed and do some self-care and relax and meditate and exercise. It's got great things in it. It's got all these different types of mushrooms and nootropics. It's got matcha inside, and there are over 200 scientific studies behind every ingredient.
00:06:21
Speaker
So that's kind of cool. But regardless, it's just a nice way to start my day and has really helped me manage my stress through this difficult month. And right now they have a special Black Friday offer. It's currently 50% off until the 6th of December, only with my link magicbind.com slash buyguysbf, which stands for Black Friday, not boyfriend.
00:06:45
Speaker
We'll put that link in the show notes, but it's magicmind dot.com slash buyguysbf. 50% off. If you're listening to this after the 6th of December, you can use my to buy guys code. It's a code to buy guys 20 for 20% off. But from now till December 6th, why not get 50% off? You don't even need a code, just click the link in the show notes or go to magicmind dot.com slash byeguysbf. Hope you enjoy that as much as I have. Thanks again for listening to this season of Two Bye Guys. I really appreciate all my listeners. If you want to see video episodes of this podcast, you can go to patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen.
00:07:23
Speaker
and maybe some other goodies in there. I'm still figuring out what to add to Patreon, but I may add some new stuff soon. Let me know what you'd like to see there. I've been getting some DMs about things I should put there, and I'm thinking about it, so let me know. And now, without further ado, here is the season finale, the second half of my interview with Aaron Hammersley, talking about bi representation in storytelling.
Bi representation in media: The good, the bad, and the ugly
00:07:49
Speaker
Enjoy, and I will see you in 2025.
00:08:05
Speaker
Okay, let's move on to this next session. Do you want to do the case studies before we do the test? Yeah, let's do the case studies and talk about some shows because we can go through the test sort of at the end as sort of your final recommendations for people.
00:08:21
Speaker
um And I love talking about shows that and movies that I've seen, and I haven't seen all of these. So we'll obviously- Great. I made myself watch I made myself re-watch a lot of them. Did you watch Buffy growing up? Yes. Because I've never seen Buffy. i know Not in this entirely, but I, yeah. um And you know, because it's never experienced as buying the show, too, I didn't get the opportunity to have that meaningful connection with it. But right there was something about that person's experience in the show that just felt that. And now, of course, we know
00:09:00
Speaker
that that was the plan. And then the studio pushed back on using the word by because they were afraid of whatever interest that would mean. Yeah, that's the just say bye. But that was in the late 90s. And it was a different time. Yeah, that Yeah, I've heard that one before. ah Bohemian Rhapsody is here that that's definitely remember that. And we're about to see him, which seems the scene where he sits down with the girl who he later calls the love of his life, which I think Freddie Mercury like said that yeah in multiple interviews about the fact that he was always in love with her. And she calls him gay or something? and she He literally in the scene says, I'm bi. She says, no, Freddie, you are gay. And which
00:09:45
Speaker
I will make the statement, I argue, I actually think I said this, but I argue that I believe that that was probably what actually happened in that conversation with them. But I do not think that Freddie Mercury was gay. right was played In his autobiography, he spoke about being bi.
00:10:04
Speaker
Right. So but that's an example of like, that's how they left it. That is how Bryan Singer left that experience and that character in the movie. And then the entire rest of the film, you only see him in gay relationships. Right. Which brings up an interesting question of like, that we mentioned earlier is like, how do you show the struggles of a bi person dealing with biphobia without making the product itself biphobic? So like, in this case, I feel like Because that was the end of it, and is it there's no other counterpoint to it than it is kind of biphobic. It feels like the movie is staying is agreeing with her. yeah where But at the same time, that scene may have happened in real life, and that may have been something Freddie really dealt with, right which is the female love of his life calling him gay.
00:10:53
Speaker
I kind of, it's interesting to know that that maybe be happened right and that's hard. what would What do you think is the better version of that movie? like What would you have liked to say? To step back. um I don't know what the better version of the movie is because the movie came out. I actually really enjoy that movie for the record. I like that movie for the most part. Yeah. yeah um And Rami is so good at it.
00:11:19
Speaker
um i I think that when it it all comes down to public facing, which is what I think I always came back to, which is because society doesn't have the narratives to understand that that's a biphobic experience for that character. yeah They're not taking away that experience. They're taking away what they know, which is in countless other examples in film and television, we have said that that character is gay.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yeah, and in fact the gay community has claimed for many many years that Freddie Mercury is is for them Yeah, which again is a by con not the gay con, but yeah that's how it's portrayed you wrote but Yeah song about it i know among many other Yeah, things and other yeah about being loving different gender yeah yeah yeah very clearly but yeah so I think that um you have to then, you have to be the the outside voice in the room, and I think that's what a lot of people are struggling with, which is you can have that scene, but you have to have somebody else, or you have to have him reconfirm for himself, or have another character, which I think is more beautiful in a way, reconfirm that he's by in another scene. You have to have the balance, right? Or the both in. Like, you you have to have both. You have to show it, even if You don't make a determination. You should let the audience have yeah yeah the both points of view at least. Correct. We could we to go talk about Heartstopper to some degree. You should. I love Heartstopper. That makes sense and also it's a little bit like when I watched that movie, I saw him as bi. I saw that scene as him dealing with biphobia.
00:13:06
Speaker
but then Which a lot of bi people in our community very likely did. And also know that Freddie Mercury is bi. Now step outside of it. right If you don't know those things and you aren't primed to notice biphobia, you could easily watch that movie as he's a gay man lying to this woman. And I think what hurt me the most about when that movie came out was the response to it and people calling it him gay and it's a gay movie. I'm like, did we watch the same movie? Because I watched it and he seems bi, but they didn't say it. But that society is by erasure of our entire community, right? It exists in all forms of our existence as human beings. Right. And as much as you want to represent stuff
00:13:48
Speaker
authentically in a movie you also do have to remember that so many people don't know this stuff and won't see the biphobia and and you should be creative enough to figure out ways to like show that and yeah and to explain it to people yeah in a dramatic way not just like sure explainer but yeah dramatize it yeah Okay, I never saw queer as folk, unfortunately. it is a It was a very meaningful TV show at the time. Yeah, I'm sure. Especially for the gay community. Is there much blindness in it? Not really.
00:14:22
Speaker
Well, there's a huge storyline. There's a a lesbian couple famously that are married. Well, not married because it was illegal at the time, but they were essentially married and they have two kids and um one of them has an affair with a man. And the literal like writing of the dialogue, like if you write the scene is basically like a lesbian like saying that her partner can't be bi and she's also not a lesbian if she's sleeping with a man. So it's like it's so internalized and very much like
00:14:57
Speaker
of the perspective of like, you have to be one or the other. And once you cross the line, you can't, like you've left whatever behind. Interesting. And again, despite the fact that there are gay people all over the world that have had experiences in, you know, with and like straight experiences and then, i you know, understand that their identity is not that. Right. Yeah. yeah that that That's happening more and more often. i've I've seen in personal life of like people identify as gay or lesbian, noticing some fluidity. but
00:15:28
Speaker
But that was right. Like because of this kind of representation for years, it doesn't seem like a possibility. Yeah. Love Simon is another one where like character seems bi but they don't say it, the con gay. Love Simon written by a bi person who was forced out of the closet by social media trolls because they decided a straight woman was not allowed to write a book about a gay boys experience in high school. And then it was fine when she came out as bi, but then other people didn't like her because she wasn't gay. I mean, it's just the compounding ignorance of society is incredible. Wow. Okay. The movie is beautiful. I absolutely love it. It's also a great example of like a full like studio backed like 20th century spent a like amount of money they would spend on any rom com to make that a studio movie. Yeah. Like Greg Berlanti directed it. Like it's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I liked that movie. I didn't see the show, but I heard there was buyer ratio in the show also. Uh, love Victor or whatever. There's show. Uh, I do like love Victor. There's a little bit yeah in it. Yeah. But it's, but it's a great show. but the character The character is gay. The character is gay. The character is gay and love Victor. Yeah. Okay. Nevermind. Uh, broke back down and call me by your name, both.
00:16:52
Speaker
movies that feature what you and I think see as body characters, but many people see as gay films. Yeah. So this is a part, it's almost kind of a segment of By Erasure, but I call it the gay film in quotation marks, but it literally, it's not even a marketing thing. It's how periodicals talk about the films. Like we associate them as being gay romances or whatever. And then you take a step back.
00:17:19
Speaker
Or as a bi person, you just watch the movie. And especially Call Me By Your Name. I mean, Brokeback Man has the exact same experience, where he has multiple relationships with women. Like, you know, so does both the leads do. um But Call Me By Your Name is so bi, because literally Elio is having an experience with a woman and a man at the same time. But it's still in 2024 referred to as like a gay romance. It's just really... Yeah. Yeah. Which is where we're at still. That that one was ah right around the time I was coming out and it was a big one for me and and I am saw immediately saw it as a bi story in a way that I did connect with. Yeah. Where I haven't connected with gay stories. Yeah. and There's one shot in the middle of the movie where the camera crosses the line and it goes like they're walking around a little
00:18:13
Speaker
fountain or something, and and it crosses behind Armie Hammer, I think, and you see Elio, you see Timothy Chalamet on the other side of Armie Hammer. Well, it's like something that most people wouldn't notice crossing the line. But I'm like, why would he cross the line? That's so weird. And oh,
00:18:34
Speaker
yeah I'm having this visceral reaction to it, like, because crossing the line is basically like, it's weird, you know, here's the cameras here, they're on the, both cameras are on this side of us. If suddenly you saw a shot from this side, jarring, it feels weird. It's like the orientation of the moon has changed, yeah which is exactly how my life felt when I came out. yeah When I accepted it for myself, it was like everything. The wall still looks basically the same, but it feels almost opposite. It almost feels like everything's different now in this way. You can't fully put your finger on and it was like, oh, that was a very intentional choice at that moment in the movie, which is when he's like,
00:19:17
Speaker
realizing it in that moment. I love that shot. I just want to say, and I've never said this, but now I'm saying it on your podcast. I did the Brad Carver premiere for Call Me By Your Name, and it was a very visceral experience. Yeah, because you weren't like fully out on Facebook. I was not aware. Yeah, and I didn't I like obviously had a relationship with my bisexuality, but i I didn't have like an outward relationship with it. And I didn't truly know what the movie was about. So as I'm like standing in the back of the theater, managing, you know, thinking about talent management, like when the film was over, I was like also having these like deep experiences. yeah And it
00:20:15
Speaker
Okay, Rams, Shits Creek is a show I really like. I like it really like Shits Creek. It's a really great show. I i really love it. And i I had to tear it apart a little bit. It's by representation. what's the what so like This one was a new one for me, and I struggle with it. tell me what's yeah what What did they do well and where did they go? Yeah, the misunderstood labeling. yeah This comes down to what I've kind of been saying, you know, for the last 20 minutes or whatever, which is about clear understanding of bi characters and their experience. And it's about
00:21:00
Speaker
the test for me, maybe, is it's about a straight person's understanding of a character. And I always made the argument, if you watch the show, which again, I love, you watch this creak and you're like, David is in the only relationship he really has is like with another guy. And it's a beautiful relationship, but that's his entire experience. And like the two episodes where they dive into sexuality a little bit, including, you know, the famous like,
00:21:29
Speaker
label joke about describing wines and everything like that. yeah I consistently make the argument that like that wine analogy is great for us in the community. And it's really a beautiful nod to who that character is, yeah but it does not go outside of us. And so it's not changing hearts. It's not challenging. It's not, you know, it's not expanding understanding. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
Rent is a lot of that way too where Maureen's character who's very bi and even called by several times but very much is like given the like I was with a man and now I'm with a woman and that's what I'm supposed to be with kind of a thing. Yeah. And that's a very like bi eraserie kind of feeling thing. Yeah. And so then people walk away from it and they go, oh, she's a lesbian. and Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:16
Speaker
The Schitt's Creek one is interesting because i I do hear what you're saying. They only showed that. He had a fling with What's Her Name. but but The actually the representation I connected with more on that show was his boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Who, even though you don't see him in relationships with women, it's very clear that that's his only experience. Right. And that this relationship in the show is his first one with a man. Yeah. And so even though that's the focus of the show, that was a new storyline that I don't think I've seen a lot before of like,
00:22:53
Speaker
the previously straight identified guy in his first relationship with a man. yeah and So I feel like that was important. But I do also hear what you're saying about the Dan Levy character. And it also goes back to like who is telling the story yeah because he it's interesting the character is pansexual at least that's how at some point i think he identifies explicitly not explicitly i don't think he ever says pan he just says he just keeps saying the one label figure yeah whatever okay so whatever whatever it's interesting interesting to say too in an interview yeah that he referred to the character as gang that's which is fascinating yeah that's the thing that gets me is like oh when i watch the show it's clearly a fluid by pan person
00:23:38
Speaker
Agreed. It's interesting that he yeah says the word gay behind the scenes or thinks about the character as gay. And not Dan's fault for the record, but the fact that that David's character itself feels like what is very commonly the stereotype of a gay man, yeah and that's how society has viewed that particular expression of a human, does not help the situation, right? but Because they look at it and they're like, oh, it's an effeminate guy who's with a guy. So it's, you know, it's the gay, effeminate stereotype all over again. At the same time, let me ask you this and push you on this a little bit.
00:24:15
Speaker
there are, I'm noticing, as I said earlier, there are more gay identified men who are like in the last five years, due to the culture and the more of representation are opening themselves up to the potential of attractions across the spectrum. Yeah. And they are gay identified and they are more like they maybe they do fit the stereotype more, and that's been their culture for years. But they're like, I was straight and opened myself up to sexual validity. Now they are also.
00:24:47
Speaker
Isn't that, shouldn't we want to portray that as well? Is that part of the body experience? Yeah, I think so. Right? Is that not what you- You have the experience of being a straight person that then, well, I guess to me, to some degree, I have had as well, right? Right. Isn't that what that character is, kind of? Yeah, to some extent, sure. But I think the bottom line is, and again, I'm happy to be wrong about this. In fact, it'd be really great if I was.
00:25:15
Speaker
it's it's weird to tell the stories but also it's like you have to take away the knowledge that that's a bi experience or that that is you know a gay person expanding their understanding of their own sexuality or or becoming more fluid or whatever it is you know i think that we can be honest about characters I think that we can have characters that are honest, and that could absolutely be an example of one. And at the same time, it could not further the larger community's goals in terms of being seen yeah i like on an equal level if that makes sense. Makes sense. And it kind of brings up like what is this guide about and for. And it's like, I read you know i read more than we're getting into today. yeahs And it's really like well thought out. and
00:26:03
Speaker
and really dives into the complexities of creating a storyline. And it's like, this is two things at once. It's like advocating for a community. And it's also like advice for good storytelling. And, and, you know, we, it's like, ah you know, you don't want to be the PC police and be just like this guy to see you don't say the wrong thing. Like, I actually think this guy is much more than that and more useful to a writer's room or a writer or an actor than that.
00:26:33
Speaker
because it's not just, don't say this, don't say that. don't like That's the simple version. But it's actually like, how do you incorporate the realities of this yeah from inception to not just help the community, yes, but to tell better stories and to actually think about this from character and story perspectives.
00:26:53
Speaker
So, so there's so much in there. Everyone should download it and read it i appreciate it because it really gets into how to do that. And it's not easy. It's very complicated. No, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, that was.
00:27:05
Speaker
I mean, that's what I wanted, right? You know, I don't want two-dimensional characters. um And I also don't think that being the people PC police is valuable because I don't think that we should be limiting how stories are told, but I think that we should be pushing people to expand the stories, yeah particularly around bi people. And I think, right I would say the reason that we did these 10 misconceptions is if you're aware that this is how our community has been portrayed, you can better understand what you're doing when you're making choices for characters on screen.
00:27:42
Speaker
Right, right. And so, yeah right. And it's not saying like, never do this, never do that. yeah Even in the examples we're talking about, there's good stuff in those shows. yeah It's just, are you aware of what you're doing with this story? And if a bi person is part of a tragic storyline, you know, maybe maybe you need that and that's what the that's what the show calls for or whatever, but just make sure you're aware of what what you're saying and what you're telling the community.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah, and then make the choice. it was valid it for money yeah Yeah, it's why for me, and we'll get to when we get there, but it's why the questions are open-ended questions as more of a reflection tool as opposed to saying, do not do this and do do this, right?
00:28:29
Speaker
it's it's uh we want to live in the both end i mean you talked about tragic storylines that's where we are now yeah like craft legacy is is a great both end right it has great trans representation in it for a just a silly you know remake of the original movie the craft and it has like a horribly tragic like storyline for this bi character that's played by Nicholas Galzateen. And it's um is awful. I mean, movie but it sounds it's weird yeah it's ah it's ah it's a weird, it's a weird, it's a weird economy. Yeah. Right. And it's, well, it's like also like, you want to be able to deal with the mental health issues that bi people face, but also yeah not just have it be tragic. And that's the only thing that leads to tragedy is bisexuality.
00:29:17
Speaker
which Game of Thrones is the other example, which I brought up earlier. i brought over on And I wouldn't say his but his sexuality is like linked to his death necessarily, but it was, and you know, I also love that storyline and and yeah everyone fucking dies in Game of Thrones, so it can't be that upset. right But I was very upset that the the most amazing by character I've seen, and he's very attractive, and he was very unashamed of his sexuality. I was sad when he died.
00:29:46
Speaker
yeah Uh, another case study, you talk about over-sexualized bi characters, um, Lucifer and wild things. I haven't seen either of those also, but what's, what's, what's the deal with over-sexualization? It's just basically like a bi character who's just there to like, straight bait. It, it, we actually specifically chose Lucifer because I think it's a good example of like, a male man being ah like straight baby. Like his bisexuality is essentially just like to like show that he's like sexually promiscuous and you know for it really came out of a place of like trying to pitch women to straight men in movies so that they could be like into threesomes and it's like oh she dates women and men therefore like you get to have a threesome where there's two women yeah and they are it's all about you and you know
00:30:43
Speaker
it It kind of fulfills the the necessity for straight men to rule the world basically in the same way. Interesting. yeah Interesting. Did you also, side note, I sent you that article about the manic pixie bio. Oh, yeah. It's an article on queer majority. We'll put it in the show notes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. i This is just an interesting side note where it's like,
00:31:06
Speaker
We used to have in the 2000s the manic pixie bi girl and there was this trope of like this woman who comes in to fix a man and then that's her sole purpose in the movie. It feels like a fairy tale creature. yeah Garden State, Elizabethtown, movies like that. They're not a real person.
00:31:26
Speaker
but there's this magical fairy designed to help. Yeah, that like lids in some place where, you know, bi people are accepted as who they are from birth. and Right. There's no problem. yeah There's no problem. There's no heal you and fix you. ba but always yeah And what the article talks about that's interesting is it used to be the girl and now there's this trend of the manic pixie bi boy who is there to help a female protagonist with her life. Yeah.
00:31:53
Speaker
And that he's just perfectly well adjusted and sexually open to everything. Well, it's um, I think my response to that article is it's the same thing as um And I think I wrote this back to you. yeah It's the same thing as the gay best friend It's the exact same situation where it's like you have like a woman let's say in like every rom-com It's like a middle-aged woman who needs to find a man and fall in love and it's like great um, but she always has like a gay best friend yeah that is like Killing it at his job like has all these like wonderful relationships is super hot like whatever and that that person just basically serves to be like a female a feminine character that she is safe with
00:32:37
Speaker
is another word that I think is important to say in these circumstances that then gets to like solve problems for them, but they still get to be the protagonist. but And i I think something I didn't say explicitly in the guide, but I want to say is that we have had so few, if any really good actual leads that are buying. yeah yeah right And that's a tragedy. That's that's what this panic pixie buy boy thing made me think of, which is like the idea of a buy guy to people, to many writers who are not buy is like this magical
00:33:14
Speaker
yeah Thing that like isn't real and it's just like yeah as a side character yeah and Yeah, and has these evolved perspectives on everything which which we might we maybe do we do? But like there's also stuff going on there
'Heartstopper' and bi portrayal challenges
00:33:27
Speaker
too, right? And like if they're the best friend who's just there to help ah They don't have their own arc. They don't have their own struggles. They're not a little character no one- dimensional. Yeah, yeah exactly Um, that I kind of, I know we're jumping ahead, but that kind of makes me think of, um, Heartstopper. Uh, oh my God, we have, there's so many things in here. I know three episodes. Um, we may have to come back and talk more about these another time, but can we talk about Heartstopper because that yeah that's the one that feels like
00:34:00
Speaker
maybe one of the best that I've seen lately in terms of it is a main character. Yeah, he's he's not the lead. I have to make that statement. Oh, you think he's? Oh, the other. Yeah, he is the other lead. Charlie is the protagonist of the story. Okay, so I have to make that statement because I just again, on behalf of our people. Yes, it is. I think is not the main character. He is the other lead. Yes. But be because it's a show and not a movie, I do feel like you do get his perspective. in the Yes, you do. There are scenes or episodes where he functions more as a protagonist, even though Charlie is clearly the heart of the show.
00:34:40
Speaker
I really loved the show from the beginning. I will say that season three, which just came out like a month ago, um was a lot more uneven for me. um And it definitely struggles to step into darker territory because, and this is something I'm pulling from a youtube ah YouTuber who does, um she's a trans woman and she's really great at talking about um kind of oppositional um critiques of shows and her critique of heart stopper is that it's too fluffy and like happy and that it's um it's very like sterilized because it's basically for 14 and up and not for like 18 year olds and up right like it's not adults it's high schoolers and it's trying to live in that world and then this season they stepped into more like darker mental health issues but
00:35:28
Speaker
um interesting I both love it, and if I were to step back, the statements I would make are, if it follows the comic book on which it is based, they will never be, but Nick will never be in a relationship with any other gender other than Charlie.
00:35:48
Speaker
and um it did very much as a show has the flow of like where like every other character aside maybe from Tal is like some kind of queer so then it feels like the entire show is just just like magical fairyland where like everyone is queer and you're so it's so great and like every single character in like the last two seasons it's like come out as something perfect And it just keeps going on and on and on. And then the teachers came out and they fell in love. It was just like, okay, got it. Got it. um And I think it's lovely. um And I really enjoy the show. okay And I also felt like I had to make those things a statement yeah because again, what's great for our community may turn off
00:36:39
Speaker
A straight people. A straight people, straight people. It could turn off straight people. It could turn off gay people. I don't know. Right. It is important. I mean, it right. Like I love the show. I haven't seen the third season. I don't think it's perfect, but many moments make me tear up. Oh my God. I mean, Nick's coming out experience with his mom. I remember watching one of that. It's a video Olivia One of the best. It's certainly for bi men.
00:37:03
Speaker
I think it's one of the best coming out see ah moments for BiMen. And yeah it's handled so well, but it also feels so... organic of the character. It feels sensitive. It doesn't feel like PC, please. It doesn't feel like a pamphlet from an LGBTQ plus center, which is what I would argue. Red, right. And real blue feels like um yeah it felt so genuine. And Olivia Coleman, who's the star, like just handles it in the way that I wish my mother had. Yeah. Yeah. I, so I share that scene with people. If anyone's like,
00:37:41
Speaker
you know, what do you, what do you, how should I approach my child, or what should I say, i god to may not say that? yeah i immediately says i love you yeah Yeah, I cried, I loved it. um It's, it's, um yeah, it brings up what you said earlier, this interesting, you know, you have to hold it all at the same time, where it's like, and also,
00:38:03
Speaker
the things that we're pushing for that are really positive for the community may be misinterpreted by straight people. And so everything is a balance. like it is yeah and And yeah, pushing things in one direction, you know you don't never know how people see it and what effects that will have. and The disadvantage too of Heartstopper or you know our conversation about Bohemian Rhapsody earlier is that we don't have robust representation. We don't have quantifiable, robust representation. yeah So until we get there.
00:38:38
Speaker
every single show or movie that portrays it is unfortunately disadvantaged because they're telling like the only version of that story or they're telling one of the 10 decent versions of our stories as community. We have to get to a critical mass. You have to get to critical mass and then all of a sudden you can tell the nuance. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. It's like we're doing like, it's like doing scientific studies and with small sample sizes. And it's like each of those is important, but you can't judge stuff from that alone until we have a big body of work. Yeah. And then it shows the whole picture and then it's like all worthwhile. So, I mean, we we we really would need more time to go through all this. like oh yeah gotta to go through all Oh, I know. We could talk about baby reindeer. I mean, i did I also liked the representation of baby reindeer, but
00:39:32
Speaker
Yeah. what What's, what's the, what's, what was. Footnotes. Well, it's the first example that I've ever found of a pan sexual identifying person who becomes a sexual predator. old yes yeah He identifies as pan in the same episode rooms and then sexually assaults him multiple times. So yeah. Yeah. That was hard to watch. Um, it was that show was pretty interesting though, in terms of the main character.
00:39:56
Speaker
exploring sexuality and being in this relationship with a trans woman who and he was hiding it because he wasn't out and that all felt kind of real and interesting. Yeah. Going back to Hardstopper, I like that they have treated Tal's relationship with her as a very straight relationship. Yeah. And that has been wonderful because to me, that's how you normalize the trans experience as wanting you know wanting to be treated as the gender that they are.
00:40:23
Speaker
Right. Right. And that show in that way has done an immaculate job of handling that. I love that. Because Tao is still straight. Right. But he's either the woman who happens to be trans. Right. Actually, it's sort of a, i it's realistic, but it's also reinforcing a misconception of the one that's at baby reindeer of like a straight man with a trans woman that there's something not straight about that. No, that's no straight smell as that's a straight relationship. But it also is reflecting the reality that straight men who are with trans women, many of them are not comfortable with that and they think that it's queer. They know they love that person in many cases. yeah Right. And so it is showing this reality, but it also is
00:41:07
Speaker
unfortunately re reinforcing the idea that trans women are not women for some reason. So we maybe you'll come back and we'll talk more about these case studies. If anyone is into this and wants to hear more, let us know. Send us some comments so that we can come back. We can do more on this because there's so much more in the tool.
00:41:29
Speaker
But to someone for this moment, yeah and this is actually my quote, as far as I know, so I feel I have to pat myself on the back. co yourself A lot of what um all of the case studies came down to is that ambiguity is often the greatest weapon against five plus representation. Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
What do you mean? say mark If we are not distinctive in the way that we express by plus representation in film and television, and it falls into the ambiguity, we're not pushing the narrative forward to normalize, which is what I think we all want, which is like, we're all normal as by people, yeah but we're not normalized in society's eyes. And that's where we should be getting to.
00:42:09
Speaker
And it's like, tell the story as in with the, all the complexity you want. Yeah. But it's like, just throw it in the word, like when you say be explicit or clarify, that could even be a one simple mention. Yeah. Just to identify it as what this experience is. Right. It doesn't mean i make every moment really amazing for your bi character and affirm them at every turn. It just means say what this is. So people know.
00:42:39
Speaker
Right. And an example of that, or to throw out one example of that, you know, in Heartstopper, like other people in his friend group affirm that Nick is bi later. Yeah. So they're reaffirming that they understand that that is Nick's experience. yeah So it's not he says it into the void.
00:42:58
Speaker
yeah Like in Bohemian Rhapsody, yeah if somebody later in the show, one of his friends said to Freddie Mercury, oh yeah, but you're bi, right? you know Like just as an affirming statement of yeah I know who you are yeah because this is who you are, that's the kind of stuff that you can do that takes five seconds and allows you to stay in the complexity at to your point.
00:43:20
Speaker
I love seeing other characters acknowledge the stuff. That's ah the part that makes me cry the most. yeah you know yeah um There's a really great experience of that for a gay person in Love, Simon when he when he comes out to his first friend in the car and she's like, I'm not really surprised, but I guess I didn't know, but I'm not really surprised. and It's just like a really lovely, like, I yeah know who you are, and I thank you for sharing who you are. You know, I think that's beautiful. Yeah, I love it. I also love in Hardstopper when he, in the first season at least, when he always says, actually I'm bi, and everyone's like misidentifying him as gay, and he's like, bi, actually.
00:44:15
Speaker
Okay, so these are your, this is the by test. These are the questions that writers or actors or people producers should ask themselves, you know, is this positive by representation? So we only have a few minutes to go through it.
00:44:31
Speaker
say, we'll say 30 seconds on each one. So number one, is the film or show sci-fi or fantasy? How is that related? o this side really like marks doing it a fifty second i know um Science fiction fantasy gives of you are the opportunity to say this is a world that doesn't exist right or is a world that is different from ours and anytime you do that you're going back to even with the command manic pixie by boy it's like a character that is a fantasy and if you're living in a fantasy world
00:45:05
Speaker
It gives somebody who doesn't necessarily believe in bisexuality to erase that person because they're saying this is not. This has been true, by the way. It's like Star Trek didn't further, like, you know, there's a kiss between two people, one of whom is white and one person is of color. And it's just as an example, like didn't further this pot. Like there's still.
00:45:25
Speaker
racism in the world and things like that and there's still um the belief that like just because you have like a society that has multiple colors of people in it doesn't mean that like that's how people view the world. We'll see it. So it's like the allegory it's ah it can be a good metaphor but recognize that people aren't going to necessarily see that for how it applies to the real world. Correct. You're not maybe not actually advancing Right. And by the way, we're totally allowed to have bi characters in fantasy yeah and science fiction. And you can write science fiction is great for many reasons. Correct. Just be aware that you having saying what you think you're telling people, they may not see it because they may not see it that way. Same thing. Number two is also about are the bi characters depicted as human or other creatures, which I think is similar. Like if they're not human, right. You may be trying to make a point when people may not see that.
00:46:18
Speaker
because they don't see him as the same as us. They see it as an other thing. And, oh, bisexual can exist in that other thing, but it's not affecting us. And side note, what I'd really love to see is straight people see a bi story where they go, Oh my God, that's similar to my experience. This is why I want just like a, this is why I really want a bi willing grace. I want to see just like a bi person's experience the world where straight people are watching and go, Oh my God, I can relate to that in the same way that straight people related to the gay experience in willing grace. I want that for bi people.
00:46:53
Speaker
I agree where the where characters by but it's not the plot line of the whole show. it's Yeah, but it's an obvious part part of them. Yeah. Well, Schitt's Creek is a little bit that um to a certain extent. ah Number three, how many by characters are in the film or show? Yeah. Why is that a question? you would want It's just a question of do you can obviously have as many as you want. But if you have multiples, it gives you the experience to tell multiple storylines and different experiences of the same.
00:47:23
Speaker
right and show the diversity and not just like how one thing to represent it right exactly that makes sense not that like you have to do that but like yeah if your goal is to show this diversity why not and there are so
Guidelines for accurate bi representation
00:47:35
Speaker
many bad people out there so it's starting to make more sense Number four, does the film only hint at but not depict or name a character's attraction to more than one gender? Yeah, we've talked about that. Just say bye. Ambiguity. um Does the bi character self identify using one of the terms bi, bisexual, pan, pansexual, or by explaining that they are attracted to more than one gender? So that's similar. We've talked about that. That's also about um getting rid of a lot of the misconceptions about what bi means and, you know,
00:48:05
Speaker
Right, have a character explain from their authentic yeah point of view. Yes, I am attracted to same and different genders, period. However that yeah character would say it, have them say it. Why not? Number six, do any of the characters improperly describe what it means to be bi? Why is that a question you would want people to to ponder?
00:48:27
Speaker
impulse um because maybe I say this because you can make that point. And this came up in some of the misrepresentations. There's a misconception about by only meaning male and female. but And you can have a character make that statement, but you should also understand that that is a misrepresentation of the term. Right. And you have the opportunity to interrupt that misconception with another character. So again, you're showing the balance in the full spectrum of something.
00:48:56
Speaker
So you can show what we deal with, but also keep in mind what yeah the reality is. It's like um that show, the cartoon show with the kids. What's it called? Oh, egg mouth? Oh yeah, that's right. Which they did some have some good representation on that show, but they did misrepresent pansexual and they did that biphobic representation.
00:49:19
Speaker
definition of bisexual. and Yes, there's an Israeli bi-phobic representation of bi. Nobody interrupted it. The bi character in that show is really problematic in my opinion too. but yeah All the characters on that show are problematic. Is the character's sexuality used primarily as a plot device?
00:49:38
Speaker
which this gets into what I was saying earlier. It's just like, yeah, this is more than just a what not to do list. This is a how to write good story. Yeah. Like how to write well is like, is he by so that he can cheat it on his spouse? Right. Does that don't use by or any identity as a plot device? only No, because it is no, no identities, not just in the LGBTQ plus community, but just like in general, just please start writing better things that are just plot devices.
00:50:06
Speaker
We don't want to just make a character this or that because we need a this or that character or a this or that point of view. yeah Make them who they are, think about what you need in your story and then think about who the character is and portray them authentically. um Number eight is the character's sexuality used primarily for audience intrigue. Yeah, that's a lot of like straight baiting and things like that. There are also numerous examples. And again, if we get another episode to talk about this, we can talk about the queer baiting and, you know, creatives basically using it to try to get audience members in without actually writing real bi characters. At least they think we can attract audiences. Exactly. They know that they want our attention.
00:50:51
Speaker
Uh, at least they realize that five people are really hot and can sell tickets. Um, number nine is the character storyline defined by a one-dimensional trope, such as the villain cheater, sexual aggressor, liar, or untrustworthy. Again, good writing advice in general. yeah Don't his wonder but don' have-dimensional characters, uh, and don't have them. Bye. We just wrote it from a, if we just wrote it a slightly different way, but that's basically what we're saying.
00:51:17
Speaker
A lot of this, if you take out the word bi, it's just like advice for writers. That's good advice. a onemenal character Yeah. Does the bi characters origin story link their sexuality to a trauma?
00:51:28
Speaker
I get that. We know scientifically that trauma does not induce your sexual preferences or identities. Not to say my characters can't have trauma because many of us do, reacted but it's that link. It's like, am I by because of this? Correct. right Something that they actually explored and in Baby. Yes. in baby Actually, that is sort of one of the nice parts of that show and difficult parts is like, yeah, they did explore. He really questions.
00:51:58
Speaker
Why is he into men? Okay. And is it cause of trauma? But yeah, it's complicated. Okay. Number 11, does the character use their sexuality to manipulate others? Don't do that. Don't manipulate people. Solely, yeah. I'm saying don't do that in real life. not Yeah, don't do that in real life either. Number 12, is the character or the existence of the characters bisexuality only used as a joke Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do bros. And I like the word use of the word, only oh bros. Yeah. Yeah. The buy stuff. hi All of the buy stuff somehow is just a joke and that there's all these other LGBTQ characters that are like,
00:52:43
Speaker
perfectly real three-dimensional characters, but- And then the bi guy at the meeting, right, is in the, or in the LGBT center is like really like annoying and like stereotypical. I know. Um, I did like that movie overall though. And I like that you use the word only, cause like you can make jokes about bi people and that is a, like, but it shouldn't be the bisexuality as the butt of the joke or the only joke. Yeah. I feel like a little bit what we do in the shadows started off grade that And then it yeah started to become the bottom of the tree. It's become that now, especially in the last season, right? Like there's the by pride episode, which also he kind of erases his own sexuality in that and calls himself gay. It's just very, it like became more and more problematic. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Number 13 is the character empowered to control their own narrative by a character should be having that empowerment. Yeah. Anything to say on that?
00:53:40
Speaker
Um, no, I think that nick is starting to get there in code stopper Yeah, he was yes charlie was more like the active one and nick is sort of reacting to things in the first season or two Um, but that made sense for the character in felix. So hopefully he's starting to yeah control his destiny 14 would the removal of this character significantly alter this storyline. Yeah, that's like a one-dimensional trope thing, too right if not then Why is the character there? Yeah. Is it just to have a bi-character? Right. right that That's part of clear baiting too. it's a There's a complicated thing. It's like, we want more bi-characters, but we don't want you to just put a bi-character in just to have more bi-characters. Yes. Right? So it's like... What I really don't want... We want you to want to do it. We should finish, but what I also want to say on that note is that it's...
00:54:32
Speaker
To me, I also, and I don't make these statements, I don't think explicitly in this, but I think it's wrong to have interviews with creatives after a show has come out or have actors self-identify their characters as bi if the show is not portraying them in that way.
00:54:52
Speaker
Or if it's not clear, I should say, in the show, that that's who their characters are. Interesting. I do not think you should have to watch a panel about a TV show to understand... To know the identity of the character. Correct. That. It means you failed as a writer, I think.
00:55:07
Speaker
If you can't, and I use Legend of Korra as this example, actually, because they talk about the fact that, like, you know, there's this whole relationship between the two of them and that she was bi and that they never got to write it in the show. And it's like giving us bread crumbs in a show of these two women falling in love is not the same thing as showing a full bi storyline where they are obviously bi.
00:55:28
Speaker
Yeah, agree. That's interesting. And that brings up a whole other topic we'll talk about next time of like, yeah, the actors who portray these characters and what, who we hire to play by people and what, what are the guidelines of that and also like about Hardstopper, like he was kind of forced to come out because he was in this world. We'll have to talk about all that. There's a whole horrible, terrible. Yeah, it's a whole episode. So you're coming back next season. Oh, okay. Glad we decided that. You decided that right now. Number 15, how does the bi character's sexuality intersect with the character's other identities? Yes. Going back to the intersectionality. And again, not the one-dimensional thing, you're not just bi, they're also whatever else they are. yeah Which affects how that comes out and how they show up in that way you know space and how outside. People of color her have a different relationship with bisexuality than white people do and yeah all of those lovely things, yeah.
00:56:20
Speaker
And finally, does a mainstream audience walk away with an understanding that a character is biased? So many all of the other things is like, what are you trying to do? And then also understanding the landscape of this, yeah what in fact will this actually have? and To some extent, you can't control everything, but you can at least think think that through and do the best job you can to to say what you want to say. Yeah, it's purposely the last question for a reason. I mean, that's ultimately what I want this guy to guide. And it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning, which is, as bi people, we deserve to be seen and unerased from society.
Bi perspectives: Catalyst for change
00:57:01
Speaker
Yeah. And that doesn't mean that we get to see ourselves or, like, imprint ourselves on characters that exist on the screen. It means that
00:57:09
Speaker
people outside of the Viya community get to
00:57:27
Speaker
so We've gone through a lot. We don't have any more time. You're going to come back to talk more about apparently some of these case studies because we could talk about it all day. yeah We're going to do it in a hot tub next time. Okay. Let me get a personal trainer now. Good incentive. and um and Any final thoughts for this episode? like Anything that we didn't get to or just a lingering thought to sum anything up?
00:57:59
Speaker
and what's your why people are incredible I think that um way beyond our sexualities going back to the whole, we can hold more than one thing true at the same time. yeah I think it's important to human evolution, advancement, society's acceptance of people from different walks of life and just anything. I think it think the future is by because of that, not anything to do with who we sleep with.
00:58:29
Speaker
ah Wow, so we'll have to talk about this more too. I mean we could talk about that forever. I totally agree with that and I think who were attracted to for me was sort of like the thing that awakened this in me and this ability to not think about everything so black and white. But didn't you also in the back of your mind always think that way? Yeah, you just yeah exactly. yeah That's the thing. and right joe always likes to like situation yeah so what I like It tries to make everything black and white. And I just remember always feeling so ostracized and weird and like an alien.
00:59:06
Speaker
And it was kind of because of that, because I was like, I understand why you don't understand this other person's perspective. I don't understand why both of these things are true at the same time. Right. There's a good meme I posted a couple of weeks ago that keeps coming back to me lately. That's like, oh, I was judging everything as good and bad instead of appreciating the everythingness of everything. Yeah. And I feel like to some extent, I've always I've been trained to judge good and bad, but I also naturally see the everythingness of everything. And the more I train myself to, the more yeah I see that over the judgments and I see the judgments as what is like yeah putting on, I'm creating that story. The everythingness of everything is what's there. The judgments are societal and and personal and we can control those. And i yeah, my question though is like, I always wonder,
01:00:01
Speaker
Have I always, am I unique, are we unique in thinking that way in this complicated, non-binary way? Or is that everyone's natural state and it's trained out of so many people, it's conditioned out of so many of us? Well, when you look at some of the greatest, this is a good sum up, when you look at some of the greatest civilizations in human history,
01:00:25
Speaker
buy people buy like I'm not saying there were any, yeah yeah but not just that. I mean, the this the civilizations themselves, ancient Egypt, um bro Rome, Greece, um yeah a lot of people don't know this, but most indigenous cultures and Native American ah almost all Pacific Islander cultures like have had very strong relationships with bi fluidity of life and also multiple genders and um
01:01:00
Speaker
Their spirituality is beautiful. And you know it's just many, many examples. And I think that it's with the patriarchy just been bred out of a lot of people. And yeah I think that people want who want to who are insecure and want to stay in in the black and white are the people that are afraid of what bi people represent.
01:01:23
Speaker
Yeah, which I get in growing up in this society we're in, I get that fear. Yeah. And I get wanting the safety and protection of like these binary identities. Yeah, it's like, I'm attached to this truth. And it's like, yeah, but things, things change. Yeah. And I think what you said makes a lot of sense. And and and it kind of probably points to the fact that That's the more natural way we exist is just in that complexity and a spectrum of everything. yeah And we really, it really is conditioned out of us, which is sad, but yeah we're bringing it back. Also all mammals on earth have scientifically been observed as having bi-behavior. so That too, check out the episode on queer
A playful hope for bi orgies in media
01:02:06
Speaker
ducks. okay great with The note but bonobos, they're our closest relatives. They all have bi-orgies all the time.
01:02:13
Speaker
And hopefully we'll see more biorgies in film and television to normalize that too, right? That's that's what the main goal at the end, number 17. Yes, number 17's question is do you have a Yeah, at one of those times. Yes. yeah All right, well, but I'll backcheck. We're by RG. Lovely to see you in person. Thank you for doing this experiment. Hopefully it will work and hopefully yeah you've heard this
01:03:11
Speaker
Thanks everyone for listening to this season of Two Bye Guys, it's been amazing, I really appreciate you. I will see you all in 2025 when Two Bye Guys is back with season 9. Take care, happy holidays, happy new year, and thanks for listening.
01:03:40
Speaker
To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.