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Vera & Leroy Duivenvoorden-Westenberg Are Pretty and Bisexual, and That's Enough
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This week I’m so excited to share part 1 of my interview with Vera & Leroy Duivenvoorden-Westenberg, my friends from the Netherlands! In addition to running a marketing company together called “Marketing Schmarketing” – which designed the “Studio 54” Bi+ boat in the 2022 Amsterdam Pride canal parade – Vera & Leroy are Bi+ activists and hosts of the podcast “One Thing Does Not Exclude the Other” (“Het een sluit het ander niet uit” in Dutch). We chatted about my trip to Amsterdam Pride when we all met, their journey as a married couple both navigating bisexuality, what’s great about the queer scene in the Netherlands (and also what’s missing), and much more. Stay tuned for part 2 next week – and don’t forget to VOTE in the Nov. 5 US election!
Follow Vera on IG: https://www.instagram.com/verawestenberg/
Follow Leroy on IG: https://www.instagram.com/leroyduivenvoorden/
Marketing Schmarketing: https://www.marketingschmarketing.nl/
“One Thing Does Not Exclude the Other” (Vera & Leroy’s podcast) on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/het-een-sluit-het-ander-niet-uit/id1615666895
Leroy’s photos from the Bi+ Netherlands Pride Boat: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg_cgA1o1Wh/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA
Vera’s photos from the Bi+ Netherlands Pride Boat: https://www.instagram.com/p/ChACzpmICKF/?img_index=6
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Transcript
Introduction to Queer Harlem Foundation and Guests
00:00:00
Speaker
So all I have to do is is be pretty and bisexual so I'll talk to Tiff. That's what all of us have to do. That's all we need to do is just be pretty and be bisexual and that is enough. That's enough.
00:00:35
Speaker
and that is original the original Harlem. We live like
00:00:45
Speaker
I just recently became the head of the foundation called Queer Harlem. So I'm cool a local Leroy now. I've been serving the community for years, but now I'm doing it in a part of a foundation to create yeah visibility queer visibility ah yeah ah mostly in nightlife. so Cool, amazing. I'll have to come visit and check out this night. Yes, I do. Yeah. Okay, so let's now that we've gotten talked about where we live, yeah I would like to officially welcome you to Two Bye Guys and welcome everyone listening to this episode. I'm really happy to see you guys and so excited to introduce you to my podcast audience, especially after appearing on your podcast.
00:01:34
Speaker
And oh my God, we didn't go over how to pronounce your name. But my guests today are Vera Westenberg and Leroy. Why don't you say your last name is Santa Fe,
00:01:47
Speaker
lee right daven fordden Devin Vorden. Devin Vorden, yes. I love these Dutch last names and they're so amazing. We do too. We combined them actually when we got married. Both of our names now are Devin Vorden, best in Berwick.
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah, just easier for everyone. i
00:02:13
Speaker
I'm not sure if that's real or if that's a joke. Is that that's real? It is real. Wow, cool. Yeah. So now, so welcome to Two Bye Guys, Vera and Leroy, Devon Borden, Weston Borg. Exactly.
00:02:28
Speaker
so Welcome. Well done, Rob. thank you Thank you. Thank you. My work here is done. you So they the Vera and Leroy are my friends from Amsterdam. we met I think we met because of this podcast. They reached out to me to say hi, and then I was thinking about coming to Amsterdam Pride anyway, and then they encouraged me to.
Experiencing Amsterdam Pride: The Bi-Boat Adventure
00:02:49
Speaker
They invited me.
00:02:50
Speaker
to the by boat in the canal parade in 2022, I think, or 21, 22, I think. 22. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh my god, I had the best day. We'll talk about it in a minute. It was my favorite pride I've ever been to. It was so fun. The canals. Yeah, like the floats are boats that go to the canal. Americans are calling floats, floats without even floating. But these floats are boats.
00:03:18
Speaker
actual floats. Yeah. The only true floats. It's the only true float parade. It was so fun. It was amazing. Vera and Leroy also are bi activists in the in the Netherlands. They are the creators of marketing schmarketing a ah marketing company, and they also host a podcast, which they will tell me the name of in Dutch, but it's called One Does Not Exclude the Other. One Thing Does Not Exclude the Other.
00:03:52
Speaker
yeah so i was on had they inside did under any doubt very nice. one can I cannot even try it. yeah ah One thing does not exclude the other. You can check out their back catalog of podcasts, although meant a lot of it is in Dutch, right?
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, most isn't Dutch. I think maybe yours is the only one we recorded in English, but you know. Cool. Maybe we should do another English one. People have been asking, like, yeah also we have to create local culture. Yeah, I was going to say, it's over here yeah yeah you may be the only Dutch by podcast that exists, so we need that also. But then if you're listening to this one and you want to hear that these guys and you don't speak Dutch, go listen to the episode that I was on.
00:04:40
Speaker
and Yeah, you could do you could do some more. So welcome to to buy guys. I'm so I had such a good time with you in person. I'm excited to see you again. I have to come back to Amsterdam. Well, where should we begin? I mean, do you want to tell me you know what? Let's begin with that pride day because we're talking about it. Can you you guys had a big part in that day? It involves your marketing schmarketing and involves your by activism. Yeah, tell me tell us everyone about that day because it was so awesome.
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, so ah in Amsterdam you have the Kennel Parade. It's a yearly event just like the parades everywhere. um But then I think we were visiting Pride I think a year before or two years before and we were both a little bit like Well, disappointed maybe on the bi-representation. And Lira, you were actually quite ah like set on, okay, we should do something about this. We should make this better. And you reached out to the organization that hosts a vote. And they were like, oh my God, yes, please help us out because we basically just slept on a poster and we're happy. But if you want to go all out, let's go.
00:05:52
Speaker
yes um Yeah, so it kind of took over the whole design process of ah yeah creating the boat and making it a whole communal thing. This was the Studio 54 boat, right? So yeah yeah we thought we need bisexual culture. We need to create it. We need to... yeah create things that that people can can point to. So we needed a style and they already had, because it's the B plus nail-alone. This is a foundation to do research. Yeah, they do a lot of research and they they ah create community events and ah yeah basically try to ah work on more B plus visibility here in the
00:06:41
Speaker
in the Netherlands. Yeah. And they already had this thing called More Love for Everyone, which we love. And then we thought like, let's do Studio 54. Let's go all the way there. So I made all these drawings of these bisexual icons, like ah ah Freddie Mercury, Basquiat. I did did that and on the boat. And so we We basically said we need a color palette. It must be the bi flag and a pen flag. And we need metallics and a lot. of We made this enormous big disco heart. You can see the wall behind us. leads These are leftovers from the boat. So we stuck them on the wall here.
00:07:24
Speaker
crazy Yeah. so And you actually ah even helped like decorating the boat the day before. I Yeah, and it's amazing. I did. Like a two hour ah two-hour drive, I wanted to say, through a three-hour float. Let's go with a float. Yeah, through the Amsterdam canals.
00:07:40
Speaker
and You have to really like get underneath the bridges and then up again and the whole, you know, it's like full of people. It's an amazing, an amazing feeling to be like in front of all these
Bi-Culture and Representation in Pride Events
00:07:53
Speaker
people. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Very intense. Yeah. It was also in all the other boats there and you're passing by the, it was, it's so, and yeah. And people with the bi flags on the, on the side. And then it's like, yeah.
00:08:08
Speaker
You're here for me. Yes. yeah And I was so happy because I was like, okay, so being out and all and visible, like, okay, then I'm, then I'm a bisexual icon. Then I need the whole thing to look good as well. so we yeah i'm I'm so glad we did that. Yeah.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you both look very good. And then I reached out to you as well because I reached out to a few people in Italy as well that, you know, helped me on my journey and that are like, you know, bisexual faces. Yeah, I think you listened to Buy Guys even before you could find it on Spotify.
00:08:54
Speaker
Right? Yeah, probably. Really, really early on you listened to the cast already. So this full circle moment was amazing. Yeah, I know. We had connected ah at least a year before that, I think, in some capacity before yeah the actual pride. But it was so fun. And everyone on that boat was having such a good time. and like Yeah, just seeing the amount of people on the sides of the canals and i yeah, that ducking under the bridges was pretty fun. It's like a fun communal experience to be sort of stuck on that boat together for three hours, yeah but going through the whole city.
00:09:33
Speaker
Did that. Oh, right. Didn't we see that on the news or something? Yeah. I saw a video of that. Yeah, because he was like a Dutch reporter and he was having so much fun, but also he didn't duck for the bridges. So he was in the canal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you two did look very good in your outfits. I'll maybe we'll post a link in the show notes or something. Thank you, Rob. It was very, very disco vibe and very biconic of both of
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00:12:07
Speaker
Tell us a little
Navigating Romance and Business as Bisexual Partners
00:12:08
Speaker
about the story. So you're both by, youre I don't know if I mentioned this in the intro, but you're like a romantic couple as well, not just a business partnership. ah So tell us whoever wants to go first, however the story goes, like when did you each realize you were by and come out? How did that work? And when in that process did you meet each other and come out to each other or how how did all that work? Tell us your story.
00:12:35
Speaker
So for me, I think I found a lot of recognition in your story about like finding out you're bi. Obviously, I've always known I'm bi, but then I didn't have like the words or the will and grace teaching me that there's no such thing as bisexuality and and you know having to make a choice all the time. And I was also personally quite rigid in my thinking and in my doing. and i was very much out there and doing and doing everything, but also i I didn't know how to fit this part into who I was. I was having sex with guys, and but but everything I put like in this very dark place in my mind where I didn't really have to do anything with it. That wasn't healthy, obviously.
00:13:28
Speaker
I don't know. We met, what is it, like nine and a half years ago? Yeah. In 2015, we met long, long time ago. On Tinder. On Tinder. I remember that one. Yes. It was like the golden age of Tinder. Yeah. yeah and You know, Leroy, he has a son and by now he's like 12 years old. But ah back then he was like almost three and we met on Tinder and I saw him on Tinder and I was like, oh, this guy has a kid. It's going to be fine. I'm never going to be like in a relationship with him. So it felt like a safe thing for me because I wasn't really looking for yeah for like something serious. But he's not. No, this is not never going to happen. but No, no. but ah yeah She's a mess.
00:14:16
Speaker
yeah you were yeah When were you met you just yeah split up with your ex like a few months before so it was a little bit of a messy situation but also for me that was a very safe situation because I was like I don't go into a serious relationship or anything and at the time we didn't really speak about sexuality at all for me and I used to only date guys. Well, I didn't really date that much, but I thought my attraction was like two guys. um But I don't know. We just build a relationship in in which we were very ah much looking for
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah, answers or truth or closeness. But also a lot of time, like at at the beginning ah of our relationship, I was having all these you know doubts and questions and i I've been in a long, long, long monogamous relationship before. And I was like, oh, I'm not you know doing that again with all my ooh,
00:15:23
Speaker
or So I didn't know how to speak about that either. And I told her that like, but I have all these things and I don't, I didn't know how to put words to them yet. Yeah, but you did not really disclose the things you were feeling. No, it was too difficult.
00:15:40
Speaker
So it was more like, you I noticed that you sometimes felt like, oh, or didn't know where to go with all your feelings. And I usually brought it back to like, are you having fun right now, right here in this moment? And usually you were having fun in this moment. And then it was like, okay, everything else we can figure out later or you know it doesn't really matter if you are okay now. um you know don't Don't get in your head about the things. and I didn't really feel like inquiring on all the things you were having in your head because I also was like, you have to
00:16:16
Speaker
you know you will I didn't feel entitled to all your thoughts. I felt that was actually so comforting and nice because whenever I was like, oh, I don't know and I'm afraid of all these things and I'm afraid what this means if we're together and how that's going to be and how is that relationship going to look like and all these images of nothing. And Vera was like,
00:16:41
Speaker
Are you okay now? Yes. Are you having fun right now? Okay, we're good. And then, you know, that just gave us time. And I think that kind of laid a foundation for me to, at one point, also have more time with my own thoughts because I've,
00:16:57
Speaker
I've kind of been trained, especially when it's around bisexuality, when people are like, oh, but you're gay, right? Or you're like, I have to respond so fast. There's no time for any elaboration but or real feelings. So I think I had some time with myself because of that. yeah and then yeah and Also, I was graduating and i and I'm ah like a hardcore feminist. I was graduating on a really a feminist ah topic and I spoke a lot about that.
00:17:29
Speaker
and i think i i ah I've always looked at gender roles from a feminist perspective and I think that also gave us a really strong foundation to ah question and gender roles and question what our relationship could look like. and uh I think that really built on yes yeah coming out at one point yeah basically awareness and but and and and the feminism are very much yeah one thing right i I agree when I learned about one and really got you know started to believe in like equality of gender then that sort of led me to
00:18:07
Speaker
Well, if it's equal, then why am I thinking about them so differently? But it also is interesting what you're saying about the repression or when you're confused about sexuality, you end up kind in your thoughts about a of lot of things and it's hard to unpack. And if people ask you about it as you're in that process of figuring it out, it can be very hard to defend yourself or it feels like you have to defend yourself or it feels like you have to have all the answers when you don't have them yet. And so I actually really love the space that you gave him, Vera, to just be like, Okay, don't worry too much about the future. Let's deal with now right now. I don't know where this wisdom came from at this time, but I think I was also just too stressed or too, I don't know. No, maybe not stressed. No, actually, she's quite nice for persons. But how? Well, thank you.
00:19:07
Speaker
I'm not usually super chill. or you know but I think at at one point that gave me the kind of like trust, that's the word, um to to include Vera in my journey quite early. like Obviously, we've always been like this couple together, like what a little less makeup, but like I sometimes say like, Oh, but you know, it makes me very first, like your awareness is not your makeup. It's it's all the things. So we've been this couple already. So we already got a lot of questions from people and and and we already had to defend our relationship. Like, no, he's not gay. We're really together. all of that I heard that many times before you even. All these things, like, added up to me quite early, telling Vera, like, so I need to tell you something. I think I'm bisexual, but I don't know what that means yet. And I don't want to figure that out by myself and then come to you and say, this is a whole package and and deal. yeah I want to.
00:20:15
Speaker
Also, I can't because I need you know an extra brain to process. One brain is not enough for that stuff. It's too complicated. You've got at least two brains. yeah Three or four or five brands even better. yeah so so We did. you It's true. yeah You really were like, I think I might be bisexual.
00:20:35
Speaker
And I honestly don't know what that means yet, ah so you really opened up a thing that we could just ah research together basically. I think research might be the right term and also discover and explore because you So we did a lot of Googling and did a lot of thinking, like, what does that mean? what but So how do you feel? And we talked a lot about your feelings and also a lot of about the struggle and the pain that was underneath all that. And the fact that you could even say this to me was so was right away, was so such a special moment.
00:21:16
Speaker
And the fears that came from saying that also for you, like, okay, what does this mean for you? What does this mean for a relationship? Like all these questions didn't have answers yet, but we were in an okay place. Yeah, we were, I think we talked about this for like a week, full time.
00:21:38
Speaker
We stopped looking. We had a little buy summit to address dress we did we week long retreat. Yeah, we closed the laptops. I think it was in summer, so it it wasn't that busy anyway. so We basically did this whole thing for like a week. We lucked ourselves up.
00:21:58
Speaker
Uh, just talking and hugging and crying and loving and everything. Yeah. How long had you already been together but before this? Quite a while. I think might be two or three years yeah already. Okay. Okay. Cool. So also I wanted to, there's a reason also why I did it then. i thought i you You must know, but but I'm, I'm kind of like a, um,
00:22:28
Speaker
ah I like time slots, like three years, for example. It's like nice if you want to marry something maybe. but and one Someone. and so I just really wanted to have this out of the way before I, you know, ask that. I tricked myself into kind of like a deadline there.
00:22:52
Speaker
and no you're blushingly it's maced and when so It's interesting because I just interviewed this guy, Louis Oakley. He's in the UK. He had this advice of like, you know if you if a guy is coming out to his female partner or any partner, but especially a ah female partner,
00:23:14
Speaker
you want to have an answer for like, how is this going to change your partner's life? And it sounds like at this moment, no you didn't really have that answer. i'm So I'm curious, Vera, like, how did you handle that? Was it really scary to think like, Oh, what does this mean? Or were you kind of like, on board in some way because of what was in the back of your mind, maybe?
00:23:37
Speaker
o Yeah, I think I don't jump to conclusions that quickly in life. and I'm quite a conceptual person. So making things very ah concrete and definitive are not some is not something that comes to me very quickly. So I like to ah think about things quite long and you know I love research. So for me, it wasn't like,
00:24:08
Speaker
It was not like, oh, you're bisexual, so this would mean this will mean this or this and this and this. I figured that it would change a relationship, but I wasn't sure how. I didn't know the storyline on that. ah and i I don't know. I think we just talked about it a lot. and I had a lot of questions, but it was mostly about how do you feel then and what does this but do you think this means? What does this mean to me? and i Also for myself, i I, at some point after three or four days of talking about this, I was like, whoa, but what does it it mean? What does it say about me and my sexuality that I'm attracted to someone who's bisexual? And that ah uncovered a whole new journey for me. You went through your money and you saw your your your feminine ex-boyfriends and you were like,
00:24:59
Speaker
um Oh, what what am I attracted to? yeah and also because i i before you Before I met you, i you know I sometimes dated people, but not that very act not so actively. and Usually, if I were to meet guys in a bar or something,
00:25:18
Speaker
I wasn't attracted to them that much and I just felt like a disconnect. And I never could put my finger on that until this moment of like, oh shit, maybe it says something about my sexuality in a way that I... um like gender norms or gender is not important to me and it's mostly ah for me about an attraction to people who also see the world like that. So people, oh my God, what ah what an epiphany. If somebody takes gender very seriously in in not like a ah ah hamming it up way,
00:25:59
Speaker
Vera thinks it's very unattractive immediately. And then she got that insight after us having this, like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. But all these questions you were asking, and I've been thinking about your question a lot, like over the years, like how how did she react? And all of her questions came from a place of feeling and humanity and and connection and trying to see your partner. And as you can hear, nothing
00:26:31
Speaker
uh, from society. And I think that is just where yeah kind of lives. She knows how to disconnect from that, but she, she wasn't asking like, Oh, but like, uh, what, uh, what have you been up to then? Or what have you liked all these things? She could find a place in our societal norms. I, I, I see them, but I don't experience them. I think.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's a nice way to go through life. I love it. For many people, it probably takes longer to break them down. It sounds like you just you know throw them throwing them out. But that that yeah, that's a really nice... like It sounds like your questions didn't come from a place of fear of what might happen, but from a place of like genuine curiosity. And I think I felt, I felt fear. There was fear. There was absolutely, so yeah okay there was fear for sure, but. Come for each other in that fear, not fighting, yeah they not not like, oh, ah that then, you know, then we're we're going to fuck it up for sure. You're like, we're both scared right now.
00:27:40
Speaker
Like, ah how are you doing? I think not long before this whole thing, I did a mindfulness course, I think six months before this, don't you think? You're going to time it, Rob. That's the tip. You're going to time it right after.
00:27:55
Speaker
I don't know. We've been reading like a lot. oh and also I read all the books yeah and all the things like ah trying to know a lot. We've always been working on like how would we, how do we see, I think I was reading Alain de Botton at the time. Yeah, for sure. Something like that. Something about love and how how how love, you know, the stories is about love always end with a marriage and they live happily ever after kind of stories. I don't really buy into that. and There's a book, it's called The Course of Love. It's for written by Alain de Botton. It's a philosopher. I think I was writing reading it out loud a lot to you. Maybe you know I sometimes do that. so
00:28:40
Speaker
It was quite dark, yes. But then we had had each other. And i yeah this is a ah point like sometimes I feel a little bit like a grinder coach or something like that. People who are like, I just, you know, I'm a bi without a face or I'm like, I trying to talk to stuff to my partner and that moment the that is it. Like, am I going to tell it? Am I going to?
00:29:05
Speaker
Start a fight or am I gonna start a conversation? Am I you know? but Yeah, wonderful I gonna What is our base all these things? Yeah, right. Yeah, I feel very lucky that we like Worked That vulnerable and i was super great. Yeah Yeah, you probably learn a lot about your relationship by going through that and realizing what are you comfortable sharing? How does your partner react? And it sounds like you even though it was difficult and it's scary, you guys got to a place where like,
00:29:43
Speaker
you could create a safe space for each other and be really vulnerable. And then that went both ways. yeah Most people think it's not trying to think for somebody else, I think, because like, hu if I, you know, feel something, want to do something, whatever, like, ah I shouldn't think, oh, but Vera is going to think this and this and that. First of all, it pisses you off a lot. And ah um also it is usually not s nuance as your partner will actually feel and react. And that I think that is... ah Yeah. Right. that's right The their true feelings are often much more complicated than fear will happen. Oh, this shall dismiss it or be really upset, but maybe there's part of that, but then there's also the love and the caring and yeah it's complicated. and Yeah. Yeah. And embracing the that life is complex and doesn't really have a single answer or
00:30:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's I think within a conversation, even even within a conversation. Sometimes if people ask me to do a dilemma thing, and I'm like, yeah, why? Why? You know, but that's the whole. yeah you know Yeah. Right. But basically the whole bisexual, oh, this or that also goes. It's a gradient. Yeah. But it also goes if you you talk about you know topics like this with your partner, it's also not things are not so set in stone. It's always fluid and changing.
Understanding Queerness and Bisexual Identity
00:31:22
Speaker
So Vera, then you had this conversation, Lyra came out, well, you had a week long conversation, Lyra's coming out, and then you kind of are realizing, oh, maybe I'm attracted to queerness in some way, but then also it it went further. So what happened next for you in terms of your identity development?
00:31:45
Speaker
Oh, timelines. Let me think. Well, I think for me to even have that realization already was giving me so much more understanding of myself. And also, I don't think I ever really looked into my sexuality at all that much. I come from ah quite a religious background in a small town. ah So, yeah, for me, sexuality was never something that I felt super comfortable in, ah even by myself. So for me to have that realization was a whole, you know, it was a whole moment of being able to dig deeper into my attraction and my sexuality and how sexual do I want to be or where's my attraction going. um And I think,
00:32:40
Speaker
I didn't, I i don't think what we, well, how did this go? I don't even know anymore. Maybe you know. This is word that expectations is for Vera like ah a theme and finding like,
00:32:59
Speaker
Finding out your queerness was a lot about finding out like how you ah were supposed to date guys or supposed to hang out. Yeah, it was a lot of like breaking down constructs. Yeah, and you were like, oh shit. ah but if i If I see myself queered then in that situation and having all these outside voices, literally, sometimes I say, Farrah's raised in the 50s just because she's from a small town on the other side of the country. People do move away or queer usually. There's not a lot of input role models and all that.
00:33:47
Speaker
and i think no I think I just read a lot and listened to a lot of podcasts. I think at one point i there was someone in your podcast, I don't remember her name, and that was when she mentioned something about ah feeling that her sexuality was somehow political. That makes um that made a lot of sense to me. like it's so It's so tight for me to being a woman and being raised as a woman in a society that's like a patriarchal society. So for me to really break down my sexuality in that context, I think mostly that's what I did. And then found out if I meet queer people, like it doesn't really matter there what their gender is, but I can feel attraction. And that is on a different level, but i it feels like I at some point finally found
00:34:38
Speaker
the the the level that that attraction lives on or something. Does that make any sense? yeah think actually Actually, I haven't quite ever thought about it this way for myself, but it kind of makes a lot of sense in that there were two there were like two prongs to my bi awakening. One was like,
00:34:57
Speaker
acknowledging that I think guys are hot in addition to women being hot. and so But that was like a very personal. It's like so simple, but it's so hard to accept and acknowledge. But then the other part was like my politics getting more and more progressive, learning more and more about feminism and equality and gender, and like and and also for me working at Law & Order SVU, learning about like patriarchy and you know assault and rape culture and like the differences that people face and
00:35:32
Speaker
breaking all that down, then it started to just make sense to me politically and conceptually to not be separating everything by gender so much. And then when you put that together, that like, I think guys are hot and also like, I don't think gender matters as much as society says, then poof, you're bi. Yeah, gone, you know, everything is possible from there on. Yeah. Yeah, but it does make, it is like those, the intellectual part of my brain and then like the body, you know, the feelings of my body. They did kind of meet at around the same time. And the culture around you as well, because like I said, Perra was raised in the fifties and said it jokingly, but it has to do with the culture around you. The time we're talking about is 2018. We had these conversations. So you, I think this is around. Same time for me. I came out in 2018. Yeah. There was something in the air. Vera is like an internet forum girl. She was like, in that week conversation said things like, you should find your people. You should get online. She goes Reddit. I went into this Reddit thing and then there were like,
00:36:49
Speaker
I was so far down and we're like 27 people left in the chat, in that chat group was like married people who are also bi and have like, like an opposite sex. Very specific. So I had conversations that say things. Yeah. It was like, you have to find people who are in the same.
00:37:06
Speaker
You know, at the same place that's where you are. Yeah, that was also, yeah. Was that helpful for you? Yes. And also, like I found your podcast at one point and- And then you were like, you should listen to this podcast as well because Rob's story is actually like very similar to how I feel. Yeah, it's very similar. So that was, yeah, just really finding resources basically. Yeah.
00:37:32
Speaker
and to talk more about together. So at one point you've grown together and you're yeah and you know more. yeah But also like the thing you just said about the body and the intellectual mind, I think I usually live on the on the mind side of things and maybe you live more on like the body side of things and that you know we find each other there. No, it's not shitty at all. No, no, no, we like that part about each other.
00:38:00
Speaker
it's It's very complimentary to each other and because it's also, you know, we we ah we are open now, but also that was a whole nother journey that also lived in the conceptual intellectual mind space for a long, long time yeah until you were like,
00:38:18
Speaker
ok Philosophically, we completely agree that it's ridiculous to have monogamy. Now let's bring it into practice. But to actually do it. yeah ah Yeah. But also the same for coming out and being bi. I heard somebody say on your podcast, because I just heard you quote some ah have a quote from the podcast, so I won one too. One thing really inspired me, and that was,
00:38:46
Speaker
I was talking to Farah a lot about like, but why should I say that I'm bi? Like, we're together. Two other people, yeah. who don't care and i I really didn't have that understanding yet. I felt that there was like a gap in understanding. Yeah, you were like, we're together. So what? I'm bisexual. Who cares? if i If I share this with the whole world, it will become such a thing. It will become a thing because everything- Don't make assumptions.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah, but also it will be, you know, so you're just so, so, hot so popular that everything everyone's talking about it all over town. yeah there There was a girl in your podcast and she said, like, every time I'm with my partner and we pass a straight, it's like a little self erasure. And that just that that was like.
00:39:36
Speaker
Not ah ah only that, but the not understanding looks at people and all that. like It took a a lot of time to truly not care, but also that little thing was like, oh, true. Mama Madonna was right. Express yourself. yeah Yes.
00:39:54
Speaker
is Is that the main reason you feel today why like you're happy to be out? like why why how What's the reason you ended up sharing it more more openly? yeah In my looks and stuff like that, because I think it's pretty. No, i thats that's not what I meant. Of course the looks, of course you should be sharing your looks with everyone. there's yeah no I don't need to ask you why. It's because they're amazing. and you're No, no. what like Like, do you now these days make your bisexuality very visible? but Like, this is a question for both of you. Like, do you do that and how and why?
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah. I think we already got a lot of questions even before you came out to me or, you know, being openly bi. When we would go out or go to a bar, have a drink or a wherever we would go, there would always be someone sos either ah asking me like, oh, hey, are you a couple, but he's gay, right? Or they would just come up to us and be like, real are you a couple because, you know, we have some questions. So we already.
00:41:11
Speaker
You know, we had to come up with some answers and be, you know, in some way, ah yeah, talk to people about us and educate people in a way and sometimes just be like, okay, can you just please leave? you know um So I think that already triggered a thing, but yeah.
00:41:35
Speaker
For you, it was just very, I think you did yeah come out to your friends and maybe on Instagram at some point because you were like, this is important because I feel like I'm keeping something or it cannot just be myself everywhere fully and you have to be somewhere. you have right You have to be all in or not with who you are and who you bring. yeah now Now I say, ah you don't then do this as much. Using the label, I use it all the time now because I didn't have it for a long time. so so you know whenever ah Wherever was, people like being like, oh, you gave straight. like
00:42:16
Speaker
Oh, too too bad you're not gay or like any ah anything in that category was i'm I'm very happy to be the one that confuses people for a second now that they're like have to stop and think and blink and taking control back of that situation just by saying I'm bi all the time.
00:42:33
Speaker
But also, yeah it for example ah for example, on Grindr, I say it as well, and then with the face and everything, because I want to i do want to show people like, hey, what a world of possibilities. and it's right you know It's also a form of being a little activist in places like Grindr, I can imagine, for you.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. I want things to change. I think that um what what I want there, i I want people to have the feeling that they can talk about things with their partner and and not assume that their partner is thinking everything is so black and white because yeah people can feel.
00:43:17
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I even on those apps, Grindr or others, like I i put by on there too. And they're like, sometimes people ask questions. And i I do think it's kind of like a little mini form of activism. right like o Yeah. I should, I should do some Grindr coaching. But yeah, people like want to, you know, oh, you're married to a woman, but you're on grind. Like, how does that work? And, you know, I don't I don't get deep into it with them unless I begin. Yeah. I'm like, check out my podcast. You can hear all about it. listen I do this sometimes. Right back to me later after you listen to five episodes. well
00:44:00
Speaker
But it's the same thing like every time. So I just started thinking about us going to queer places for gay places for the first time. But like kissing there was a little bit of opening people's minds up. Like I, I feel like the the name, the one doesn't exclude the other and bisexuality. Like so I have this, this tattoo, they're the biangles. I don't know if you know that.
00:44:25
Speaker
ah I have a hat with that on. Yes. That just gave me the insight as well. like I felt I had to be very sure in my sexuality and in my relationships. and in my You were very sure about everything. I was yeah very sure about everything because I had to choose all the time. And then the the moment I found out that was not true, it gave me so much time and joy. and Yeah. and love i love of I love people that are not sure about things. Being too certain is a sign of you you haven't done enough work to discover your own complexity because yeah for sure at this point now I'm like, how can I be sure about anything? And while that can be scary, it's also amazing. Yeah. There's a secret sure thing though, I think. like Secret sure thing? there's a secret like
00:45:24
Speaker
Being sure about not being sure. Being sure about that you like me or something. ah Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things about how you that you can listen to your feelings or your body or things that just feel right. Yes. Yeah, there's that there's having awareness and clarity about like what's happening. But there's like that's youre already somewhere. i guess yeah Yes. Yes. I mean, you do have to have be confident in your identity or your feelings, right? There's confidence. Yeah, then I think what what I heard from what you're talking about is like,
00:45:58
Speaker
Being sure about the future, being sure that a concept is the right thing or the way you'll think about it forever. It's being charmed about a relationship. The only constant in life is change. How it's going to be. Right. So things are never the same ever. Yeah. That's the beauty of fluidity. Yeah, exactly.
00:46:36
Speaker
Okay, so I want to let's so you mentioned the open stuff I want to get to that in a few minutes because that's also very interesting to me and I'm ah open also but first I want to talk about Amsterdam for a second and just like hear about the scene there because I for a few years now, especially since the bi-boat or the B plus.
Exploring Amsterdam's Queer Scene and Community Spaces
00:46:57
Speaker
You said B plus and then bi-plus. I was bi-plus, but in Dutch you say B plus. I love it. B plus. I love Dutch. I need to learn Dutch. Okay. So Amsterdam, especially since then, but even before I used to visit here and there and stay on the canals and
00:47:17
Speaker
I think it's my favorite city in the world. I think it's so beautiful. It's so fun. And especially since coming out, the times I visited after being out, the queer scene to me seems awesome. like it's There's a lot of fun clubs. There's like the people I met in B+. plus they They were so friendly and awesome. ah At Pride, like there were these outdoor parties all over town in these historic squares. And there's There's so many cool things about Amsterdam and the queer scene is great. what What's your perspective on it? like what's What's the queer scene like and is there like a bi-fluid i feel part of it? yeah I feel very lucky with the community we have here and with the
00:48:03
Speaker
like the party community as well. like I think that's the most kind of like the side that we did that we see. But it took us a while to find people. that was when we just but at At some point we were like, okay, great, this whole bisexual thing, we figured it out together. Awesome. But now we only have straight friends and yeah you know we love them, but also we need more community. So we actually did like active searching like for for community. So you have here in Amsterdam, you have the Rechilierstvarsstraat, which is like the main gay street. Yeah, that's nice, right? hu Which is like a very gay rainbow flags everywhere, yeah but very gay. So not a lot of fluidity, not a lot of queerness. This is 2018. Yeah, 2018. That really changed a little bit.
00:48:57
Speaker
Yeah. So but if we would go there, I would be seen I would be seen as like the best friend of this of this gay a man over here. So that was not a lot of fun to go out. I used to go out there like way before because that was like more chill than go out in like straight parties. But um So at first there was not, we really struggled to find community and the right places to go and the people to connect with. That took us quite a while. Yeah. We had this one friend that I- We were saying that out loud. Damn, we can't find communities. We were complaining and out loud. We were having these conversations. But I had this one friend who's bisexual and you you really connected with her about like, okay, where do we go and where do we find people? and
00:49:48
Speaker
How do we go about all this? And then this bar opened. Yeah, there's one bar, Pamela. And there, all of a sudden, the queer people just showed up. I don't know. At least for us, that was the first place where we actually would be like, oh, if we were together here. It's more famous as well than the Rechleers. Yeah, more femme that also helps. Yeah, more femme, but also more queer people, non-binary folks, like more like the variety of people. And I think from there we really got to know more and more people and also expanded going out to more like techno parties and at those places. It's really queer. It's usually quite queer, and even if people are straight, they're very queer looking and behaving, thinking. So I think we really got to a place where we found community, but also places to go out, yeah, fit the by vibe, let's say, like that. But it was quite, you know, it's quite the search for it because, for example, during Pride, the street parties,
00:50:59
Speaker
i don't like to attack i I don't like to go there because it's mostly straight people who watch the canal, the parade on the side like, oh, nice, the gays. And then they go to these these street parties and then if they see, for example, we showed up at one of these parties a few years ago and then they see like same sex people kissing and there's like, oh yeah, I don't like to go there.
00:51:23
Speaker
ah you know ah yeah so yeah maybe aware You might have noticed that when you step off the boat and you walk around, you're still the parade to people because you're just what is it. That's kind of what that means. You're an attraction.
00:51:40
Speaker
i feel that we' are that we We're very lucky living in the city as well. like It's been the gay capital for so long, and that is for bisexual people a little bit. you know It has been ah great creating space because like so theres there's so many gay men. It's as easy as that. When there's a queer party, there's a lot of gay men. But the party people and know that. like They try to do things to make it more by the last few years. Yeah. more and more Yeah. And it's starting to work now. And, but also like, uh, lavender here, the bar opening up, uh, which is part of queer Harlem. So I kind of have a bar now, Rob. My name is on liquor license cool called lavender. And it's a queer bar.
00:52:29
Speaker
And that is instantly very mixed. yeah um And that is because that's what queerness means now. So it doesn't come from like a heritage of a certain party or a certain place that is already, you know, very male focused, for example. And also, I think we also visited so, so many parties where mostly Well, at least in my experience, there were so many gay men, or at least men attracted to men. And, you you you know, I cannot guess their sexuality, but there was a lot of men on men attraction going on. But then still we went there and we were there and showed up. And we always, every night we connected with one or two people that were also
00:53:14
Speaker
Like, oh my God, yes, bisexuality, I see you. And you know, so even in those like white male focused parties, there were always some people that were like getting the vibe and that. Yeah. like Yeah. Just wear something purple. I'll i'll point at you and say you're a bisexual icon. I don't care.
00:53:34
Speaker
This is also true. This is also what you do. I'll call everybody bisexual. No, but you have a really, really strong bisexual, what do you call it? Bi-Fi. Bi-Fi. Oh, you can tell. Yes, and not only tell, but you point at people like, hey, bisexual icon. And people sometimes are like, I just told this last week to move.
00:53:56
Speaker
How did you know? So that opens up a lot of, you know, ah community. thats Yeah, I love it. That's your superpower. You can spot a bisexual through any layer of repression. um I like the name out of straight to don't you worry.
00:54:17
Speaker
That would be a good superhero. He can instantly tell anyone's sexuality, even if they don't realize it themselves. Well, I think I can, because... yeah You're really good. It's horrible. But but we... we studied I have people telling me in my face...
00:54:33
Speaker
um Well, it's that I'm not attracted to guys, but otherwise, I'm like, do you even hear what's going on right now? You're actually just a little bit bisexual, maybe. Or people say like, yeah, but you know, Vera, you know, she's so nice. Like, yes, you know, of course I'm attracted to her. I'm like, maybe that's maybe that's bisexual.
00:54:55
Speaker
But no, i mean I'm going to do the bisexual whisperer. But yeah, a little bisexual fallen angel, bisexual devil. Yeah. All the cliches and stereotypes are true. Amazing.
00:55:17
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode of Two Bye, guys. There's more with Vera and Leroy. Check back next week for the conclusion of our conversation. We talked about polyamory and lots of other fun stuff. As always, you can see the video of this podcast on Patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. It's $5 a month. You can see full videos of every episode from the last three seasons, bonus material from stuff before that. I also posted a bonus from this episode We kind of got into the episode just chit-chatting without a formal introduction. You kind of heard some of that at the beginning of the episode, but I put up the whole thing of us chit-chatting when I started the recording. So you get stuff like that on Patreon. Also a quick announcement, I am resuming group coaching. It was on hiatus over the summer, but it's back starting this week. It's going to be every other Wednesday at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific, If you're listening to this when it comes out on October 28th, we're doing one in two days on October 30th. Then we're doing another on November 13th and another on November 27th, the day before Thanksgiving. It's really very powerful to do it in a group. And the other bonus is it's only $35 for a 90-minute session. And if you happen to be the only one who shows up, you get a full coaching session to yourself for $35. Quite a deal. You can check that out and sign up at my website robertbrookscohen.com or on my link tree on social media. Also a reminder, last chance to vote. This is your last week to vote early and then next week is your last chance to vote on election day. Please vote. I already talked about why and who I'm voting for and why on our last episode. You can check it out if you want to hear more, but please, please vote, make a plan, check with your friends and family, make sure they're voting. With that, I will see you next week with the rest of my interview with Vera and Leroy. Bye!
00:57:25
Speaker
help support this podcast, visit patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.