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Mark Cusack Defines Not Defining
1.6k Plays2 months ago
This week I sat down with Mark Cusack (he/they), founder of the support site "Not Defining" (a space for anyone struggling with their sexuality, gender, or identity), and we discussed why even under the Bi+ umbrella, many queer people are moving away from fixed labels and definitions of their identities. Mark is also an ICF Certified Integrative Coach and LGBTQ+ mentor, and we chatted about how his journey with content creation led to his new coaching practice (similar to my own story!). We also discussed stand-up comedy, authenticity, dating... and more, coming in part 2 next week! Thanks for listening.
Mark’s Website: https://www.notdefining.com/
NotDefining on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCct1pE5fNVUdIR1aw3wxPew
NotDefining on IG: https://www.instagram.com/notdefining/
Bisexual Research Group: https://www.bisexualresearch.com/
HOW (Husbands Out to Wives): https://how-support.org/
Rob’s Website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome to two buy guys, buy one buy guy with another buy guy, another buy con. We've been crossing paths for years. He's been on my radar. we've been He retweets everything we post. It's lovely. I love his support. ah Today my guest is the founder of the support site Not Defining. He uses he and they pronouns. Not Defining is a space for anyone struggling with their sexuality, gender, or identity. He's also an ICF Certified Integrative Coach.
00:00:45
Speaker
an LGBTQ plus mentor, specializing in supporting those with complex, undefined, fluid or mixed orientation, gender or identity. All that space in between, which is exactly what this podcast is about.
Mark's Background and Move to Liverpool
00:01:01
Speaker
Welcome to two by guys. Finally, Mark Cusack. Hi. Hello, Rob. Thank you so much for having me. It's so lovely to be here.
00:01:12
Speaker
So lovely to finally meet you in this forum. I know we've chatted for years on the various social media platforms, but it's ah lovely to finally get to have a long forum conversation with you. So welcome. Yeah. Did I pronounce your name correctly, by the way? You did. You did. OK. Many you don't, but you did. Thank you so much.
00:01:34
Speaker
Okay, i ah I would have cut it out and redone it if I didn't, you know, nobody would ever know, but i but since I did, that's good to know. We'll make a thing of it, yeah. No relation to John Cusack, the actor? No, no, actually no, but um the the name is not very common, but it comes originally from France, and then I think we fled to Ireland, and then we fled to Scotland, and then I fled um to to Liverpool a few weeks ago where I
Philosophy of 'Not Defining'
00:02:07
Speaker
moved. So the history will continue, we'll see. But I think all the Cusex are somehow linked from that. Yes, probably. Constantly fleeing. what what are he what were you How's Liverpool? You just got there. How's your new your new escape?
00:02:24
Speaker
It's wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, I just ah left my office job and I'm so excited to be able to do my coaching and my content creation and my writing full time. So yes, it's a great, great new step.
00:02:40
Speaker
Awesome. I'm excited. This is perfect timing to finally have you on as you're taking that leap into the full time by queer, not defining business. yeah It's awesome. you've been doing yeah ah You've been doing great work for years. So it makes sense now. ah I'm glad you finally have that opportunity. So we'll talk I want to talk about all that stuff in a minute.
00:03:03
Speaker
Um, but, and this question I kind of have done away with to start a lot of interviews, but since this is kind of your thing, uh, and the brand is not defining, I was curious to ask you, how do you identify on whatever spectrums you would like to identify on or not identify on? Maybe I should ask, how do you not identify?
Complexity of Bisexuality and Personal Experience
00:03:26
Speaker
I love that.
00:03:28
Speaker
Absolutely, I am not defining. um Yeah, it's such a good question because... I basically created this platform not defining because I really have felt for my whole life that this kind of convention of defining our sexuality has always been a bit weird to me. So I use lots of labels. um I use the label bi. Obviously, I am a card carrying bisexual. um you know I have it up in my house.
00:04:04
Speaker
and I actually have a little card in my wallet that says, this person is a said to buy bisexual. So I salute the buy pride flag, um but I also use lots of other identities, um pansexual, um queer, um other other things I also identify as non-binary and I identify as being on the ace asexual spectrum as well. So I guess kind of I can't really 100% identify myself and that's kind of what the concept of not defining is, it's just like
00:04:42
Speaker
man I'm me, I'm Mark, I'm just a person so come get to know me. But I will use different labels at different times depending on yeah if i if I need to. Cool. I love that answer. It makes sense. It's it's funny to to have the brand not be not defining. And then for people that aren't listening, audio right behind you is a big poster that says queer and also a bi flag that says bi. And so you have some some big labels right up there. But when you identify as stuff like bi, pan, queer,
00:05:18
Speaker
it makes sense to me that none of those is your ah you know ultimate identity. All of them sort of contribute to the idea of it, and yet none of them is sufficient. i you know That's sort of what I'm hearing from you, and and also how I feel, that like there is no single word or even cluster of words that that fully identifies you. And so we it's it's kind of the perfect bisexual thing is that you both don't identify and also have lots of identifiers at the same time.
UK's Bisexual Community and Visibility
00:05:56
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. yeah I think um bisexuality or the bi plus spectrum, it's such a diverse label. Like if you look at all of us,
00:06:07
Speaker
we're so different, we're so different and actually to have like just like one thing to describe that huge breadth is just like bonkers really so. Yeah, makes sense. But you do identify as like, incredibly tall, don't you? I mean, we haven't met in person, but I, and I didn't know this until like recently, other people post pictures of like, you next standing next to that on your YouTube, you can't tell you are. Can I ask how tall you are? Yeah. that ah Is that a appropriate? question It is an appropriate question. Absolutely. um
00:06:41
Speaker
And of course, like sexuality at height is a spectrum. But I am on the upper end of that spectrum. It's so funny. I think that was when I was at BiPride UK this summer, which was really cool. And they had that kind of like a backdrop where it was like all the bi colors. It was like the Met Gala of bi-ness. It was so cool. And so we all were like taking our glamorous BiPride shots.
00:07:09
Speaker
And yeah, dear, dear friend of mine pat posted one and They're quite tall, like they are quite a tall person. yeah But next to me, they were just like, oh my gosh, um I am six foot nine, which in metric is just over two meters. So kind of two meters and four centimeters, I think. um But my gran holds the official record she has on her little doorway just outside of Glasgow. She has a
00:07:41
Speaker
um all of my measurements literally since I was a baby and so she kind of does it with a pencil so if you want the official official one then she's the one that holds that.
00:07:55
Speaker
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I saw that photo, and I think the person who posted that is like over six feet, and I'm six too. There are very few people I encounter in the world that I have to look up to, and the comparison between you two was just like, I mean, he they that person looked like very small, but actually but actually it's you. Were you taller than the backdrop? Did you even fit in the backdrop?
00:08:24
Speaker
I can't quite remember, but I think, um yeah, it was ah it was it was a good backdrop. um And as somebody who I look up to very much, you know, I can say I look up to you, whether physically or not, you know, we'll have to meet in person. That's the only thing so we can check. Yes.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yes,
Journey into Content Creation
00:08:44
Speaker
we will. ah This season, like other seasons in the past, is heavily featuring some UK and European guests. So we have to have like a two-by-guys guest reunion when I next time I come over there at some point. You'd be very welcome. I love it over there. It's so by. Why is it so by in the UK? Or what do you think? It's so by. Is it the water? Something in the water or the corn or something?
00:09:12
Speaker
I don't know when you grow corn, not corn. yeah That's what we grow. What do you grow there? What do we grow like? Potatoes, um stuff like that. The potatoes making everyone bite or something?
00:09:25
Speaker
No, I think, um to be honest, in the UK, we've been through quite an evolution. Because i said like when when I grew up, it was like bisexuality was like nowhere to be found. it was like It wasn't even a thing. But I think in the past, maybe like five to 10 years, we've had so much progress and so many people speaking out and you know talking about different identities and stuff like that. um it's really becoming um It's really becoming more and more and we have I guess two kind of main conventions. One is BiCon UK which has been going on
00:10:06
Speaker
for decades, it's actually like the community there has been going since, oh my gosh, so, so, so long. So that's the real establishment. And then we've got by Pride UK, which is a bit younger, um but the community is growing and I want to to wildly encourage that wherever I can.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, I love it. I mean, when when I started this and when I assume I forget, when did you exactly start your content creation a few years ago? Gosh, yeah, it was um like 2020, 2021.
00:10:42
Speaker
cool. Okay, so I want to ask you about that. But like, even back even five years ago, there wasn't as much. And just in the last five years, there's so many books coming out, the Neats book, Lowe's book, Lewis Oakley's book is coming out, the all these are all UK people. ah There's lots more podcasts coming out now, there's more creators, and I never even got into this YouTube space. so So for those who don't know, which I can't imagine is many, if you listen to this podcast, guess you must be aware of not defining, but maybe not, maybe or maybe you know not defining and you're coming to the podcast, but ah the not defining is all over YouTube.
00:11:25
Speaker
That's sort of like your main channel and then there's and then it branches out into other social media. But you do a ton of YouTube videos, explainers. They're ah they're awesome. I mean, any topic you're curious about or struggling with with bisexuality, if you just go look at the Not Defining YouTube page, there's like any question you want answered, Mark has
Embracing Authenticity
00:11:48
Speaker
answered. So tell us like how and why did you start doing this and how has it evolved?
00:11:56
Speaker
Thank you so much for your kind words about about my channel and my work. You were actually one of the very first things that I i kind of connected with and engaged with when I was first working myself out, working out my bisexuality. So To be here and speaking with you and to hear you say such nice things about my work is really, really something. So thank you. Thank you. I'm glad. You're welcome. You're welcome. I remember listening to two bi guys, you know, just not even even knowing if I was bi and being like, oh, gosh, yeah.
00:12:31
Speaker
um So yeah, it's it's crazy how these things happen. cool I was never on social media. I was never doing any of that stuff. I was one of those people who was just like, no, no, don't want to be on Instagram. Don't want to do any of that.
00:12:45
Speaker
um but I actually did a talk at my work. They have like a diversity and inclusion committee thing. And I was trying to work myself out and actually my work was a bit of a safe kind of space and stuff. They were doing quite a lot. um And I actually went to them and I was like, maybe they will know some kind of bisexual people because I was thinking maybe, maybe I'm bisexual. um And they actually said, no, we don't have any bi people. We don't know of any bi people.
00:13:17
Speaker
but if you're bi why don't you come and be the bi rep and like talk and write a blog and I was like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hold on like I don't even know who I am what I am like I thought there was this whole world of bisexual people like who knew who they were and who knew what it was all about and who were talking about it and could help me. Apparently there wasn't. So and I'm sure that you doing this this work would kind of appreciate that. It's like there's very few people who are actually out there and able to kind of talk about it. That sounds like a gospel.
00:13:54
Speaker
You know, I can't do this. I don't know the first thing about bisexuality. um But I spoke to a person who was kind of in a partner organization, who they kind of like managed to link me up. And they said, look, there ain't no one out there who knows the right answer of what is bisexuality and everything. Like, your experience, you are it. Like, you are it.
00:14:22
Speaker
your experience no matter if it like makes sense or if it's the right thing or if it's like the way that other people experience like you are.
00:14:34
Speaker
by like that's what it is, that's what bisexuality is, what you you've been through.
Connections through Openness
00:14:40
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh. And so I thought, okay, screw this, I'm just gonna do this talk and I'm gonna just speak totally and utterly from my heart. I'm gonna say all those things that I was confused about, all those things that don't make sense, all those things that I've struggled with in my life and that I thought kind of, I'm the only one, I'm just gonna do it.
00:15:02
Speaker
whatever, we'll see. And I did this talk at my work and so many people came to me and said, oh my gosh, like that's me. like Oh my gosh, I was so affected by what you said. like People were actually emotional. People were actually crying. like It was so, so, so powerful. And it was at that moment that I was like, okay, wow.
00:15:26
Speaker
I need to, I need to do this. I need to share this because this is something really impactful. And so I decided to post something on Instagram. And again, I was just like, you know, I'm just going to do this. I'm sure no one's going to like pick it up. But of course I posted something about myself again, just authentically me. And that was where not defining came from because it wasn't even about bisexuality or anything. It was just about,
00:15:55
Speaker
yeah I'm this thing that I don't you know see anyone else being like. It doesn't seem to fit into the mold and I struggle with it a lot, but here I am. So many people came back.
00:16:09
Speaker
and very, very quickly people started to you know like a comment and share and it grew and it grew and it grew. And then people started coming to my DMs and asking me questions like, I'm going through this, can you help me? Like asking me all these things. And so I would kind of respond and very, very quickly think a lot of people in the queer community will appreciate that kind of the minute you become out and visible and vocal,
00:16:36
Speaker
um people will come to you for help. yeah So I kind of just started helping all these people. And I had a professional background that was kind of helped me to to to do that a bit. um And it just grew from there. And so I branched out from Instagram to, I think, Twitter. I left that because, sorry, Elon.
00:17:00
Speaker
Me too. Not me. Sorry. um But I'm now on threads, which is a bit nicer. And I i started my YouTube channel. And what else? We did TikTok as well, because my friends convinced me they were like, you got to be speaking to the to the kids. So I was pressured to go on TikTok. But now I love it. And it just grew and grew and grew. And then at a certain point, I realized, OK, I can't. I can't do all of this anymore. And so that was where I started to look into training as a professional coach. So I did my coaching training. um I trained in mentorship. I did all kinds of um things so that I could really provide like proper support to people. And so
Comedy and Addressing Fears
00:17:50
Speaker
now yeah cool it's a huge platform of, I think, 35,000
00:17:57
Speaker
people and um as I said I've just just recently left my office job and I'm now doing it full-time so it's ah it it's been amazing absolutely crazy ride but Yeah, I love it. I love it. I want to ask more about the coaching in a few minutes, but I love that of that evolution. I mean, and it's so similar to what happened with me. It's sort of parallel because I went sort of the podcast route and the social media that comes with it. And you I forgot that you started on Instagram and then kind of became this very popular YouTube channel, which I don't I don't want to say which any of those is sort of primary, but
00:18:42
Speaker
Does that, that seems like where the full, all the full videos are sort of, uh, the explainers, your page is just very well done. I've often thought like, should I do YouTube versions of two by guys explain, and then I look and it's like any topic I think of you've already covered.
00:19:00
Speaker
yeah Um, I should have done it five years ago, but I'm, but you filled that space, which is great. Uh, but, but that was the reason we started the podcast is the same as what you're saying is like, I was looking for a bi podcast and there wasn't one that spoke to me at the time. So we were like, well, we don't.
00:19:19
Speaker
you know, we don't really know everything, but also does anyone? Nothing is, that there's nothing out there. And like, yeah Alex and I were going to this discussion group talking about it and people were, and liked what we were saying and we wanted to share what other people were saying. And so we knew enough to talk about ourselves and that was what we did. And and it just kind of evolved from there. I wonder if it's ever going to like,
00:19:47
Speaker
At some point, some bi-creators have to be like not going that route. We're like, oh, it didn't exist, so I created it. Hopefully, at some point, it exists, and there's no twist to it. But it does seem like that's the story of many of of us queer creators at the moment, is like creating what we were looking for ourselves.
00:20:10
Speaker
Absolutely. And that is the filter that I put basically everything that I create through. It is what would the younger version of me want and need to hear. um yeah I struggled so much. I mean, so, so, so much with my sexuality growing up. And there were times where I just thought, I cannot i cannot do this. I cannot understand this. I just don't get it. And I don't get how I'm going to be able to live in this world that just seems to not understand me.
00:20:48
Speaker
um yeah And so everything I do is just a love letter to that, that younger guy. And what that does is it also kind of makes sure that I know it's going to be relevant because I know there's so
00:21:17
Speaker
what I love about your page, your all your content, especially on social media that I think is what caused it to grow and get all this feedback, is that you're just so authentically
Masculinity and True Identity
00:21:30
Speaker
you. And you're not, like it didn't start as you explaining everything, it just started as you sharing yourself and what you were going through. And it's very vulnerable. And you talk about mental health struggles and like other things that are,
00:21:46
Speaker
difficult and like what I remember seeing when it when ah when it first came out and also recently is like in your when you post stuff it's just so personal and it's really just what you're thinking it's not attempting to answer everything for everyone it's it's authentically you. And that's like where you start. And that's sort of how I started is just being as earnest as possible. Now I'm taking a turn into comedy and doing the opposite. I start with the earnestness and then something else. But because I'm getting tired of earnestness, it's getting it's getting old after five years. But but I think that's what allowed people to really connect with us and with you is you're really being authentic. How do you feel about that?
00:22:34
Speaker
It's very, very special to hear somebody like you you know say that that to me. um And also, can I just say that your comedy is absolutely amazing like to have i but to have people laugh and make jokes and bring humor and joy to our experiences, those things that like have been in the shadow and been in the darkness um that we struggle with a lot of the time.
00:23:07
Speaker
like to bring that into like, humor is just amazing. and i I bow to anyone who can do stand up comedy. I think that's the hardest hairdressers and comedians. I think it's the hardest job in the world, the two scariest jobs with the most pressure in the world. So
Self-Acceptance Through Humor
00:23:24
Speaker
I respect that. Hairdressers are so scared. Why? What if you get it wrong? How do they do it as well?
00:23:32
Speaker
how do you do how do you do it and then when someone like someone like tries to i'm always like you i'm one of those people who they say okay so what can we do for you today um and i'm just like uh how do they make it good me too Yeah, I'm always like, I don't know, make make it like usually I just like go like this. and Not, not too short, but kind of short. Like, I don't, I just say things that mean nothing. Right. With such awkward, like anxious by people. But like,
00:24:06
Speaker
I just have so much respect for hairdressers. My auntie is a hairdresser. She's amazing. And I just think I could never do that. And that's what I think about stand up. So, you know, wow huge, huge, huge respect.
00:24:18
Speaker
Well, thank you. ah but ah And i maybe you can't be a hairdresser. I don't know. That's a specific thing. But I do think someday you could do stand-up because the prerequisite for that is like you have to be vulnerable and authentic and be yourself in front of people. And you very much know how to do that. And the the writing, the joke on top of that is There is an X factor, like you have to be creative in a certain way, but it is something you can learn and practice and do over and over and get better at. But the authenticity is harder to learn. And I think you've now had, like I, I think the reason I'm able to do the standup is because I did this podcast for five years.
00:25:01
Speaker
if I had tried to do it before coming out as bi, I don't think I could have done it because I wasn't really fully prepared to be myself on stage. But it it has been so fun. It's like,
00:25:16
Speaker
Like, it really does take the piss out of stuff to use a British phrase. Like, my favorite joke that I tell is the one I start with every time, because it's really fast. And I just say, hi, I'm Rob, I'm bisexual, or as or as my wife calls it, gay.
00:25:32
Speaker
and And it's my favorite joke because because it's the thing that I was so scared of for so long is being seen as gay. i like And I didn't come out for so long because that's what I thought.
00:25:49
Speaker
people would think and that's what I was secretly afraid of that I'm doing these gymnastics and with that one very short sentence I just like am able to acknowledge that that was the big fear that that's the big stereotype and tell people that I'm not afraid of that anymore like just by telling that joke it shows that like I don't care anymore and I don't like like even if my wife sometimes thinks I'm gay like whatever, that's cool.
Creating Safe Spaces
00:26:21
Speaker
and it's And I can say that on a podcast a hundred times, but to make the joke out of it and show that it doesn't bother me is so empowering. Oh my gosh. And and what you do in showing that authenticity
00:26:38
Speaker
in such a powerful way, in such a humorous way is that you help other people to to feel it as well. So I watched that and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so funny because of course we shared those those things. And it's so cool we say about authenticity. um This is something that I feel that as bi people, I think as bi men, um as people who haven't had a kind of sexuality or identity that fits into society's boxes. I remember for so long just
00:27:15
Speaker
repressing everything, like not just who I was attracted to, but but the way that I walked, the way that I taught, the things that I said. I remember lying about the music that I liked and the the movies that I liked and the the the clothes I want to wear and just everything, everything, everything was so, so repressed and policed and yeah So that authenticity is life saving. It's essential. like it It's everything. And so I love being able to do what I do because it's like this space where I can just be authentic. And yes as I've been on social media, um you know a lot of people say, oh, social media is not good for anything.
00:28:13
Speaker
For me, it's been so powerful because it's a space I can go and practice. I can practice as being authentic and then just like run away and hide and and and look to see who who, you know, who says something about it. And every time I do, I go, oh, well, I did that but until now. I just don't care about anything but like, you know, it's just like, right Right. It's, it's a bit easier in a way to put stuff on the internet than to get up in front of like 1000 people and talk because like, you don't see the audience right there. So it's just like, Oh, I'm sitting in front of my computer, let me put this out and see what happens. And it feels less scary. But then your stuff is going to 10s of 1000s of people like you're ah you're talking to an arena full of people.
00:29:00
Speaker
but but i'm But then it's like, yeah, the things we're scared of most of the time are we're making up these stories in
Finding Community After Repression
00:29:08
Speaker
our head. And so many people think the same way and are going through the same things and also are scared to talk about it. And so then, of course, when you actually share that and there aren't a lot of people doing that, then you're going to get these positive responses. It's like I have another joke about how most bi men are not out. So if you do come out, a lot of other people will start coming out to you and only you. I feel like a priest or something. I'm a bi priest. ah Yes. That is exactly what happened. When I started talking online, let me tell you, you probably
00:29:46
Speaker
had this experience as well. The people that come out of the woodwork, Rob. The people who come out. And I'm talking people who you did not expect. And it's like you are this holder of the secrets. And people would message me and be like, hey,
00:30:06
Speaker
How are you doing? Oh, I haven't heard from you for a while. You know, someone who I'd known in my, you know, personal life. And it's like, yes, I've just been seeing and yeah, it's just, you know, wanted to share this. And it's so wonderful because you put yourself out there and then people feel safe with you. Although sometimes, yeah, it can be a little bit like,
00:30:29
Speaker
Yes, come, come to confession. like come you know but so Yes, it's which leads to the coaching, which we'll get to in one second. But yeah, that actually just happened the other day. I went to an open mic. I did my very bi poly set. So good. I walked out with this guy, we walked to our cars together. And he he's a straight guy. And he was telling me, you know, I think everything's a spectrum and and stuff. And I was like,
00:30:57
Speaker
you know kind of seeing where it was going and I was kind of like yeah you know there's a lot of guys who identify as straight but when you ask them where they are on the Kinsey scale you know they're not a zero they'll say they're a one or a two actually like 20 percent of people are in that one or two space but only a few three four five percent identifies by so and I'm just like giving him permission to say and then he was like yeah yeah I think I'm like a Kinsey one uh you know I think and like I don't know this guy like he's doing a very straight set at the open mic I don't know him and he's coming out to me on the way to my car I mean not really coming out because he's straight but he's sharing something that he probably doesn't share with other people
00:31:44
Speaker
and how beautiful is that um and how sad is that that we have to be so afraid of these things but it's just so so wonderful that he was able to to share that with you and you know I love the Kinsey ones the Kinsey one guys just call me let's be friends you know I know that and that's that's the fastest growing group in in the world is Kinsey ones because you know you can still be straight and be a Kinsey one it's just like the little be nice's just a little something hashtag Kinsey one come okay title title of episode Kinsey ones
00:32:27
Speaker
ah And by the way, you mentioned something earlier, just last point and
Journey into Coaching
00:32:31
Speaker
then we'll move on. ah ah if The policing of how we were before we came out and this repression like, oh my God, in high school I used to, I love Broadway, I grew up going to see Broadway. I know that this is a stereotype of queerness, but But for me, it was accurate, where it was like, I was in love with show tunes. I would drive around in my car with the CDs, singing them. But if anyone else got in the car, that CD came out. And something else was put in that was more, normal quote, normal and appropriate. And that was not something I shared with other people. Because even then, I knew that that seemed gay. Even though I had no clue yet that I was, like, attracted to men, I was just like,
00:33:17
Speaker
Let me not share that part of myself with anyone. And it was something I loved. Like, I would be belting these songs in the car. Chicago. My favorite was Chicago. Oh, my God. And actually, it's funny. the My favorite musical is Chicago. And I would be singing Mr. Cellophane, this song about being invisible and nobody gets you. I would be like, I mean, helping it in my car. How ironic is that?
00:33:45
Speaker
And you didn't know that you were queer. No, I mean, not officially. And do you know what the crazy thing about that is? that let's say that you and I were in each other's life or, you know, we were friends or colleagues or whatever it might be, like, I would love to be in that car rocking out to Chicago with you. Like, we will be singing along. We will be doing a dance. he's like We will be having the most joy, like the most joy, the most joy. And yet we would both
00:34:22
Speaker
have put on different music because we expected that from other people. I think that's something that especially as men, I think we we do, we assume that people are not going to be okay with those things. and actually Actually, that's such a shame. and That song is the cellophane. Weirdly, I actually sang that at school. Isn't that crazy that you just mentioned that? Interesting. That at school. and Again, I didn't know what was going on with me, but I really connected with the song as well. It's a really sad song. Yeah. Oh, it is. I mean, the whole show is very dark, but also amazing and uplifting.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, but i yeah I remember seeing Joel Grey perform that when I was like 14 years old on Broadway. and that is yeah that's ah It is so funny how how we all have these parallel experiences, but until recently didn't realize. That's the unfortunate by experience for many, but hopefully changing.
From Social Media to Professional Coaching
00:35:41
Speaker
So OK, let's talk about coaching a little. we We may run long. Oh my god, we have so much to talk about. It's it's so nice to finally meet you. ah So I realized like a year or two ago that coaching existed and was a thing that you could do. And that some and that like what I had been doing with this podcast and content creation is kind of like what a lot of coaches do to build up their business and like get get an audience that's interested in this niche. So I didn't even realize that I had been laying the groundwork for my coaching practice, but then I finally did. I went to IPEC, which is a coach training program. I did an eight-month
00:36:27
Speaker
training program. And now since about February, I've been coaching mostly by men, mostly by men in relationships, but not all of them navigating relationship stuff. And it's been awesome. So tell me about your journey with that. Like, I'm curious what your training was like, and what, you know, how the coaching businesses I know you just have started very recently, but how's it going so far?
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah, um thank you for asking. It's a like I kind of said, I came to it organically, because when I started posting, people would just come to me. So it really started with me um kind of just texting people in my DMs. That's really, I guess, where I kind of learned so much about people's issues, about what they struggle with, about as well how to kind of support people and you know what they need and that kind of thing. I did that just free of charge completely just out of my heart. I just did it because I wanted to. It was so authentic to me and I had that ability to connect. um And as I did that, people started saying things to me like,
00:37:50
Speaker
like I've never spoken to anyone who gets it the way that you do. I've never been able to express the things that I feel I can express to you because of the stuff that I put online.
00:38:03
Speaker
people know that I'm safe, they know that I get it. I think that's such a big thing for people, by people, as people, non binary people, you know, people in less understood and represented identities, they need to understand that the person gets them. And so I was like, well, this is really a thing. And again, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot out there in terms of support for people. I certainly struggled when I was going through everything with myself in terms of trying to find a therapist or a counselor or someone who really
00:38:43
Speaker
got it um and so it got to the point where I couldn't cope with the amount of people coming to me for support so I started actually a Patreon um account where people could pay like a couple pounds a month or something just to kind of token amount and just so I could whittle out the kind of people who are really serious and who really need my support.
Coaching vs. Therapy
00:39:08
Speaker
And that way we could basically text or write through written messages and they could ask me questions and and so on. And so I started doing that formally and then
00:39:21
Speaker
Throughout this whole experience, people were asking me, please can I have a call with you, Mark? Please can I have a call? like I'd love to chat with you. I'd really love to tell you my story. And I was like, no, I cannot do that. I cannot do that. I work full time. There's no way I can do that. ah but there was There was so much need. And I was like, oh my gosh. And so, yeah, that's that's when I thought, okay, I'm going to I'm going to start offering this on a formal basis. um Yeah. Before you get into that, that's that's like the same thing. like we it As soon as season one aired, we would start getting these DMs, especially when we did that episode about bi men married to women. I realized that was a big part of our audience and they were
00:40:07
Speaker
struggling and wanted to talk and didn't know anyone. And I would get all these messages like that with people, you know, long paragraph sharing their story. yeah And I always wanted to respond. i I responded. I mean, maybe I miss a few here and there, but I always respond to every everyone that writes in. And after a while, I was kind of like,
00:40:27
Speaker
this is a lot of respect like This is actually becoming as much time and energy as the podcast itself. exactly And I like doing it. I want to respond to everyone, but maybe I should actually learn how to help people and and then also get paid for it because it's because it is a taking my time and energy. Okay, go on. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so it's so lovely that you he responded and that's exactly what happened with me. I was like, oh my gosh, this it I would love to be able to devote my time and energy to this because it's so it so worthy and wonderful. Yeah.
00:41:09
Speaker
But i I wanted to make sure that I kind of did it right and had the qualifications. I had already, in my professional life, had a slightly, slightly related profession. I was a trained trauma first responder and sexual assault first responder and crisis negotiator things. like so So I kind of, I've always been a bit like,
00:41:38
Speaker
into talking with people and that kind of thing but um I was lucky enough to have some amazing people around me who are therapists and coaches and counsellors and people in those professions and um I sought their advice and I said look this is the situation I really want to listen is So um they they recommended that I i take coaching certification. so So I did that very similar to yourself. And I went with the ICF, the International Coaching Federation. They're the gold standard for coaching. They're the kind of most, I think globally, the largest federation. So that I knew knew that I had the hard skills. um
00:42:26
Speaker
And then I took that and I applied everything that I had learned from, you know, what I'd already been doing. Um, and I provided this, um, this, this support and the moment that I started offering calls, people, people just started taking it up. So I love, love, love my Cochise. They're just.
00:42:53
Speaker
They're so amazing and it's such a privilege to be able to be trusted um by people who really often feel like there's no one else that they can speak to. yeah yeah it's a huge It's a huge honor really.
00:43:09
Speaker
cool. I love it. Yeah, I'm a ICF member. That's definitely the biggest one. and And I'm working on that to get enough hours to be officially to get their official credential or something, which I'm almost there. But
Empowerment through Coaching
00:43:24
Speaker
and my training was I've seen your training was through ICF. Yeah.
00:43:30
Speaker
Interesting. I didn't even know they offer it. um That's cool. So let me ask you this very basic question that I have an answer to, because not everyone listening might know what coaching is, or like how is it different from therapy, or like what what exactly do you do. What what is coaching to you?
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah. um So coaching can look quite a lot like therapy. um Therapy, counseling, coaching, all have crossovers. um And you'll find a lot of therapists will employ coaching techniques and coaches will employ counseling techniques and whatever, whatever. So they're very, very um connected but normally coaching is a little bit more condensed so um you won't necessarily go into a lot of long detail about kind of your life and you won't necessarily kind of have like a regular meeting kind of once a week for you know a long long term although some people do come to me long term
00:44:41
Speaker
But it's just it's more condensed and the the main feature of it is that you're always looking towards where you can get to. So it's always focused on getting you to where you need to be. There's always a point, but there's always an aim to it. Therapy, you're kind of treating mental health conditions, you know, if you have depression, anxiety, go to the therapist, they they're trained in that, they can help to treat. That's not a coach's job, coach's job is to take you where you are,
00:45:15
Speaker
and to help you work out where you are, what's going on for you, and then to help you to get to where you need to be. Now that might be something really practical. So I have people who say, oh, I really want to come out to my partner or I really want to um Go to a queer space or visit pride and I yeah, I don't have the confidence to do that Can you help me and so what okay? There's a practical thing steps to take and building confidence great, but it could also be something that you know in your aims that is really really personal or psychological or emotional so you have a lot of people with with deep trauma and you know obsessive anxiety or really really dark emotional thoughts so that can also be held in coaching as well but it's just using that that style of making it a little bit more um
00:46:16
Speaker
aims, focus, and really kind of get into you to where you need to be. That's basically it. Yeah, I totally agree with all that. It sounds like you know this the ICF sort of has similar ways of teaching this to people. Yeah, like it's goal-oriented. I often, or almost always try to start a session with asking my clients, like what's your goal for today? What's your goal for this session? Or you know when we do an intro call, like What's your goal if we work together? Where would you like to be in two or three months? yeah and some and you know so when some Many people have a clear goal. They're navigating a relationship challenge, or they want to come out, or they want to find ways to build community, and something is holding them back internally or externally. Yeah, so it's so it's that goal-oriented. And sometimes people don't know exactly what
00:47:11
Speaker
their goal is like yeah they're struggling with something but they don't really know what it would look like to move past that and that's what we can talk through and visualize where you want to be before you figure out how to get there like there's something blocking you let's talk about it and really like I mean, everything you said is accurate to like to just paint another picture. It's basically what I do is ask people questions and have a chat and ask open-ended, empowering questions that are designed to create awareness. Because my thinking and you know sort of the coach philosophy we were taught is like,
00:47:49
Speaker
The client has all the answers. This isn't about me giving you advice because what I went through or what Mark went through is not you know is unique to us and is not the same. and and I can share my experience, but then I'm always going to check in with the client. like How does that resonate with you? What do you think? you know how How do you think about this? like The goal is really creating awareness because often when you want to get somewhere but you're not there, there's something holding you back. And if you knew what it was, you wouldn't be struggling so
Coaching as a Safe Space
00:48:26
Speaker
much. like It's just figuring out what that thing is that's holding you back is is where coaching can be really helpful and powerful. Because um'm because I assume you, like we we're going to ask you questions that
00:48:39
Speaker
you know, maybe you've been avoiding or maybe you haven't fully thought through because you're not letting your mind go there. You haven't been in a safe space with someone who gets it, right? And so that's the power of, of especially like being with a coach who, you know, gets fluidity, sexuality, gender identity, is it's a very safe space to explore. And a lot of people don't have that in their daily lives. So that's, I'm sure they can open up to you. And I found they're there they open up to me in ways that they might not with other people. Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly it. um
00:49:19
Speaker
the the answers are all inside you and I always say to people that I work with you know I'm not going to be giving you advice if you want to ask me questions I'd be very happy to answer and I always answer as openly and as frankly as I can because I think you know with with my channel everything you know sometimes people want to come and ask me things and that's absolutely okay so we can do that but normally it will be more kind of exploring with them where they are and i think another really important thing is that
00:49:52
Speaker
um A lot of the time we, and especially with the LGBT community and people who've suffered from repression and that kind of thing, think a lot of the time there's there's sub so subconscious things going on there. We really can't consciously get to ourselves, and so um you might need the help of somebody who just understands how to how to how to get those things from you and to help you explore them um in a certain way. um Because otherwise these things just stay repressed and we can't we aren't really get to them by ourselves. Right, exactly. so
00:50:38
Speaker
Yeah, right. And because, you know, maybe our experience isn't exactly the same as the clients, but like, we've been through stuff where we've repressed stuff, and we've been felt ashamed, or we've had to share things we were scared of. And so sometimes when you've been through it, you just you know what questions to ask that the client may not have thought about yet. And I don't even realize, like sometimes I just ask what I'm curious about. I mean, not sometimes, all the time. I just follow my curiosity. And that often leads a client to somewhere they they haven't thought about yet. And that helps them prepare for what's coming. cool.
Comedic Exploration of Bisexuality
00:51:25
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to this episode featuring Mark Cusack of Not Defining. Stay tuned next week for the conclusion of my chat with him, we did another 45-50 minutes, you won't want to miss it. In the meantime, happy October, just a quick shout out, this past weekend I was at the Bisexual Research Conference It was all online, two day event. I spoke on a panel last year. I presented the findings of my book. It was just an awesome event. So many people presented really interesting research about bisexuality and it highlighted the need for even more because there's a lot of statistics that are just not available. If you don't know about the bisexual research group, you should follow them on social media. Go look up their website. I'll put it in the show notes.
00:52:09
Speaker
They're a great group. If you missed it this year, check it out next year. I also just spoke this weekend at a group called Husbands Out to Wives. The acronym is how. Just a quick plug for them. They're a great group if you're looking for support, if you're a married bi guy or married gay man.
00:52:24
Speaker
Check out how it's an awesome group. I still have a few slots available for individual coaching, and I am going to resume group coaching soon, not this week, but soon. Check my social media for dates for group coaching. And one more thing for today, since we have a little bit of time left, and since it came up in my conversation with Mark, I'm going to post another one of my stand-up sets here for you to enjoy.
00:52:46
Speaker
Maybe you've already seen it on Instagram or YouTube. It's all there on the internet. It's also on my website. But just in case you don't want to go find it, and you're already listening to this, here it is. This is my second ever show that I did. I decided to do an entire set entirely about male masturbation parties. If you've listened to this podcast before, you have heard me talk about that probably a few times.
00:53:09
Speaker
I really could only have done this stand-up set because I had already talked about it so much on the podcast and was not ashamed and not embarrassed to go even deeper. So here you go. Check it out. It's about six minutes. All my sets are on YouTube and on my website,
00:53:37
Speaker
rob cohen
00:53:42
Speaker
oh
00:53:47
Speaker
Hi, everybody. um Hi, I'm Rob, and I am bisexual. um Or as my wife calls it, gay.
00:53:59
Speaker
are I thought that I was straight for a while and I didn't start exploring with men until my late 20s. It's really scary when you're just starting to explore because you can out yourself unexpectedly. Like this one time I went to a male masturbation party. And I spotted a coworker there. um And I was terrified. I barely even looked at him while we were jerking each other off. um
00:54:34
Speaker
Anyone here ever been to a male masturbation party? um I thought I recognized someone in the back. How about summer camp? Similar? Well, brace yourselves, because I'm going to talk about this. For those who don't know, male masturbation parties are actually really similar to female masturbation parties, except that they actually exist outside of porn.
00:55:00
Speaker
And they typically cost about $25, which is kind of a lot, considering you still have to do most of the work yourself. um I normally go to these parties about once a month, which is how often my wife leaves town.
00:55:14
Speaker
um And you can find them in most major cities across the country. Like here in l LA, it's called l LAX Jax. And it's true. And in New York, it's called New York Jax. And in Jacksonville, Florida, it's called Burnin' Hell Faggots.
00:55:34
Speaker
are um Those ones are hot. a By the way, my my wife and I are non-monogamous. She knows that I go to these parties. She actually likes that I go to these parties. She says it's one less thing she has to do for me. um when i get And when I get home, I actually do just want to cuddle. um So to set the scene a little, you this is my whole set.
00:56:08
Speaker
are You walk in, you pay your $25. It's one big room. There's anywhere from 20 to 100 naked guys. ah There's porn projected on the walls. There's lube and little dixie cups all over. It's very cute. And there's no penetration allowed. At least according to the guy I tried to fuck.
00:56:35
Speaker
There's only touching allowed. It's just touching, and there's a lot of touching. And sometimes, though, if it gets too crowded, you can't always tell whose hand is touching you. I know. It's incredible.
00:56:48
Speaker
um And it's kind of a quiet space. There isn't a ton of talking. I think I know why that is. I think it's because there's a lot of guys there who can't yet talk about what they're doing. Maybe they're just exploring this fantasy, or they're not out yet. That was definitely me at the beginning. like I was fine rubbing dicks together with other guys. But if somebody came up to me and was like, hey, I was like, back off. I'm straight.
00:57:16
Speaker
um And because there isn't much talking, you have to learn to communicate consent non-verbally. So like like this means let's touch, I'm down. And like this means no thank you. um And this means thank you for coming in my face. That means who's next.
00:57:43
Speaker
are there is There is a lot of cum flying around at these parties, and people often ask me, who cleans up after you? But people at the parties are surprisingly respectful. There's always someone walking around who's more than willing to lick it up.
00:58:02
Speaker
um Don't king shame them. um Really, though, you shouldn't waste the cum on the floor. You should cum on me. I enjoy it. Well, I actually get annoyed if I hook up with a guy and he doesn't cum on my face. I'm like, are we even friends? Hooking up with me and not cumming on me. It's kind of like when you go out to dinner with someone and they don't offer to Venmo you for half. It's like, were you raised in a barn?
00:58:33
Speaker
It's weird, though, meeting people for the first time naked and then seeing them in their clothes later. Like, sometimes I'll walk out with someone and see them in their clothes, and I'm like, clothes are good for you.
00:58:45
Speaker
are I actually think most people look sexier in their clothes, which makes me wonder why I go to so many naked parties. i I think my ultimate fantasy would be a clothed masturbation party. But I just can't figure out how to get tickets to the Oscars.
00:59:11
Speaker
I'll leave you with this. i That story about my coworker is true. And in hindsight, I'm glad it happened, because I went up to him the next day and I said, that was you, right? Just a check. And he said, yeah, because you know we didn't talk. And he said, you were very popular. And I was like, I know.
00:59:32
Speaker
And then I said, you know, just so you know, I'm not out. Nobody at work knows that I'm by. And so if you could, and and before I even finished, he said, don't worry, I totally get it. I would never tell anyone that's yours to tell. And we developed this really nice relationship. We had this connection after that. We we didn't really have much of a relationship before. And he was really supportive of me after that, which just goes to show that sometimes the nicest friendships happen when you don't see them coming.
01:00:01
Speaker
um or when you do. Thank you guys and I'm Rob Cohen. Give it up for Torrance.
01:00:12
Speaker
are Give it up for Rob Cohen.
01:00:18
Speaker
a
01:00:22
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit Patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You get early access, bonus content, and full video episodes. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.