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VOTE! After That, Listen to This Episode with Vera & Leroy Duivenvoorden-Westenberg
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PLEASE VOTE for Kamala Harris! The stakes could not be higher. Once you've done that, then you can listen to this lovely episode, the second part of my chat with Dutch bicons Vera & Leroy Duivenvoorden-Westenberg. We talked a bit more about the queer scene in the Netherlands before moving on to a longer discussion about non-monogamy, polyamory, kink, play parties, and why their sexualities bring them joy. Enjoy!
Follow Vera on IG: https://www.instagram.com/verawestenberg/
Follow Leroy on IG: https://www.instagram.com/leroyduivenvoorden/
Marketing Schmarketing: https://www.marketingschmarketing.nl/
“One Thing Does Not Exclude the Other” (Vera & Leroy’s podcast) on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/het-een-sluit-het-ander-niet-uit/id1615666895
Leroy’s photos from the Bi+ Netherlands Pride Boat: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg_cgA1o1Wh/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Vera’s photos from the Bi+ Netherlands Pride Boat: https://www.instagram.com/p/ChACzpmICKF/?img_index=6
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Transcript
Introduction and Importance of November 4th, 2024 Election
00:00:12
Speaker
everybody. Welcome to Two Bye, guys. I am Rob. If you're listening to this on the day it comes out, it is November 4th, 2024, one day before the most consequential and important election of our lifetimes. Please go vote if you haven't already.
00:00:30
Speaker
Please make a plan to vote tomorrow if you did not vote early. It is so important the stakes could not be higher. If you don't quite understand why we keep saying it's the most important election of our lifetimes for the past few cycles, then you don't really understand what's going on, do you? Because it is.
00:00:46
Speaker
and it has been, and it is getting worse and worse every year, and the Republican Party is getting more and more radicalized by Donald Trump. We have never had two parties that are so far apart, hopefully someday in the future. It will be less consequential, but this time it truly is dire.
Differences Between Democratic and Republican Parties
00:01:04
Speaker
We have one party that values truth and one party that lies constantly. We have one party that values democracy and another party that is run by a fascist. We have one party that respects and cares about the people of this country and is trying to help those who are marginalized and less fortunate. And another party that only cares about enriching themselves and staying in power. We have one party that respects the rule of law and another party that is not only corrupt but criminal. and many of whom are traitors to the United States and working with our enemies. The Democratic Party is not perfect. I agree. I have many complaints. But a presidential election is one of the few binary choices in life. If you listen to this by guest, you know that I think most things are not binary and there is a spectrum. And there is certainly a spectrum moving forward after tomorrow. But this choice is
Impact of Presidential Election on Marginalized Communities
00:01:55
Speaker
binary. You can either help the cause and lay foundations to be able to make progress on all the things we care about moving forward
00:02:02
Speaker
or you can set us back decades, and especially for queer people and women and trans people and marginalized people of all types, you will be setting us back decades and many people will be hurt and many will die if Trump is elected. That's my brief rant. Go back to two episodes ago if you want to listen to me and RJ Aguilar talk about this some more, although hopefully by now you've made up your mind, you've voted, and if you haven't, go vote.
00:02:27
Speaker
Once you've done that, feel free to listen to the rest of this episode. It's really lovely, and it's not really about politics. Although, of course, our sexuality is political, and it is all tangled together in interesting ways, and a lot of what we talk about is political, even though
Queer Life in Amsterdam: Polyamory and Open Relationships
00:02:43
Speaker
it's also personal. So enjoy part two of my chat with Vera and Leroy Devonvoorden-Westenburg. After editing the first episode, I remember how to pronounce their names now. They are lovely. Hopefully this chat will make your heart feel good. We talked a little bit more about the queer scene in Amsterdam and then we spent most of this episode talking about polyamory and open relationships and various things they've learned and have dealt with because they're navigating that. It's really interesting. I love chatting with them. I hope you enjoy this episode. I can't think of anything else to say except go vote. Fingers crossed.
00:03:19
Speaker
Hopefully we'll be in a better place on the other side of it. I do have a couple more episodes this season coming up about bi representation in film and TV with my friend Aaron Hammersley. Stay tuned for that. And another quick reminder, group coaching has resumed for all LGBTQ people who want to come get coached by me.
00:03:37
Speaker
it's every other Wednesday, you can check my website robertbrookescohen.com to see the dates and to sign up. I got some new exciting things planned for 2025 in terms of my coaching practice expanding it even more and offering even more, so stay tuned for that. And now without further ado, here is part two of my chat with Vera and Leroy. Enjoy!
Inclusive Queer Spaces in Amsterdam and Europe
00:04:07
Speaker
One more question about Amsterdam, and that's interesting that like ah it's the same thing that I've experienced. like There's the gay male scene, and then maybe there's a lesbian bar here and there, and then there's like there isn't really like always a bi scene, but the bi people show up to places, and it's it's more of these queer spaces. like That's where I also feel the most comfortable is a party that's queer and you can just tell the vibe. And the people don't assume anything. Right. You can't assume anything about people's gender or their pronouns or their sexuality at all. It's just a mix of everything. People wonder why we don't go to straight bars anymore. This sounds like
00:04:52
Speaker
Wonderful, right? It's very blinny sometimes. it's but like we Obviously in Europe, it's very different than America because we have everything very nearby. So we have some community in Paris as well, and they are so very just so helped for us to connect with them because it's a completely other language, way more romantic, way more a polyamory in their language. Yeah. That's amazing.
Acceptance of Polyamory and Libertine Culture in Paris
00:05:18
Speaker
The French are the best. Interesting. Yes. And then you have, that's like four or five hours away. Then you have Berlin, which is eight, nine hours away. So you can party there and then catch that vibe. Yeah, that's true. So the European- We reach out to different cities that are quite close. Yeah, it's cool. And for example, the Parisian scene, or at least the people that we found- Buried by. very bisexual, but also there is like this whole libertine culture in Paris where they're like the more swinger kind of things are in culture already quite obvious and always have been there. So there's a lot of culture exactly around, I mean, the word polyamory is French and you know, so there's a lot of, it's just ingrained a little bit more to be
00:06:11
Speaker
I don't know, more open or loving or, and I don't think that's true for everything and everyone there, of course not, but yeah it's just a little community we found. Just a little community we found there with the bisexual polyamorous people that love to party hard. So that's a nice, you know.
00:06:30
Speaker
We should have more here. Yeah, we should. Yeah. Yeah. You should you should throw parties. You should throw more parties. You should throw parties. Yeah. but i That's a perfect segue, except I have one more thing to ask about Amsterdam, which is like, why do you think everyone is so hot? Like I my experience has been both men and women and everyone in between is like really attractive in Amsterdam. I'm like just staring at people when I go there. I went to a gym last time I was there, like I mean you two and then and then beyond. I went to the gym there for a couple days like I got a guest pass and I've never seen so many like beautiful people in one place yeah as I have at that gym in Amsterdam.
00:07:19
Speaker
Everyone's so tall and fit. Why is that? It's ah ah colonizers. They get like all of the strong, long, right? I mean you mean, we ate everything. We ate all the food in the world that was to find, you know, and maybe because of that, we're a strong, tall people.
00:07:40
Speaker
I'm not going to explain how I came to look. and yeah why Why are you both so hot? Tell me. Explain it for me. and Also being like this. I wouldn't say that. I think part- We colonized the beauty ideal as well. Yes, that is it. It's colonizing the beauty ideal. That is it. Yes. Okay. It has to do with the with the image. i Yes. yes because we' too So I just think everyone's hot because that's the way that the Dutch shaped the world to think that that's attractive. I used to be a model in New York, right, Rob? You remember this. Oh, right. Oh, right. In New York, I did i forgot about that part. and so Not everybody in Amsterdam is this hot. Not this hot. Of course. i'm I just happened to be connecting with the former models. and Okay.
00:08:31
Speaker
Okay, good answer. It all comes back to colonization and it's not actually objective hotness, it's just what
Journey of Opening Up Relationships and Bisexuality
00:08:57
Speaker
let's get into it. So the bi journey is one thing. There's some overlap with polyamory, obviously, even though they're not the same thing, one thing does not equal the other. oh But you guys have opened up your relationship and I identify as poly or tell tell me how you identify and like how did what was that journey? When did you realize how did you talk about that with each other? Let's start there.
00:09:25
Speaker
So I think it came from that week of talking already, because like obviously it had some kind of a push behind it to tell what ah what what you feel sexually. And I am always very much on board with, oh, but it doesn't mean that bisexual people are highly sexually.
00:09:44
Speaker
ah sexual I do agree with all that, but also for me, um it has been the motor behind telling Vera that I'm bisexual, that I was actually very frustrated and and that I don't want to pretend like sex doesn't have to do anything with with but ah bisexuality. So I i always include that in in in my story, I think. And then at one point we were We were talking about that around that subject. like I think we we right away talked about, we don't know what it means yet for a relationship, but we don't exclude the idea that we would ever be open. Not now, but we could you know have that as a possibility somewhere because what do we know you know? I didn't want that right then either because I didn't want to tell it because
00:10:40
Speaker
Oh, and this is what I want. And I figured it out and I need a dick in my mouth. No, I was like, that I was, oh that was not but it did open up all those ah moments to be able to say these things. And I say it this hard to kind of like shock. And I did it with Vera as well, yeah because you need to train yourself. I guess I found out to not have a normative relationship.
00:11:09
Speaker
so by opening up that it's okay to talk about sex, that it's okay to talk about... ah Yeah, you really pointed out like sometimes like, oh, I really think this guy is super hot, or this is super sexy, or I would find this super hot to do during sex or something. That was a lot of work. Yeah. Because Vera was not there. Like, first of all, you don't work like that. No. don't youda And then I thought like, oh, you should also say things like that to me. Then it's kind of like equal, but that's not that's not how it true because Vera. For me, it doesn't work like that. For me, it's not like, oh, look at this hot. I want to have sex with no more than me.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, for for me, yeah, more demisexual like that. But for you, it was very important to talk about your attraction to men as well, and the things that you find sexy or hot or that you, I don't know. So we tried to open that up, I guess, also. Yeah. Because if I didn't talk about that, and then it became smaller again, that thing that went back for a week.
00:12:13
Speaker
and You want to be able to say the thoughts that come into your head, especially the ones that you've been pushing down for a while. Yes, like provoke it as well a little bit. Yeah, because you also sometimes were, ah say yeah you say to you said sometimes to me like, okay, it's getting darker again, the bisexual thing, is cant be you know I'm pushing it away again, of or I feel I feel frustrated. Yeah, this was absolutely the hardest time because for me at that moment, there was not a real
00:12:45
Speaker
um I didn't really have to talk about it that much because I was okay where I was. um But you really needed to talk about it and you were sometimes like, Vera, I also need you to be the one starting this conversation. I cannot always be the one to start this conversation with you about the attraction that I feel towards men, but also the the sexual attraction that I feel towards men. um so that That makes sense. like Yeah.
Importance of Communication in Relationships
00:13:13
Speaker
A lot of guys I've talked to and married who are married when they come out and a a lot of guys I'm coaching right now, it's like once they're out, they want to talk about it a lot. There's a lot in there that hasn't come out. And that was when I came out for like a year. It was all I talked about for the whole year. But it's hard if you're in a marriage and the other person doesn't want to talk. Like so with with some people, they
00:13:37
Speaker
okay i heard that now i don't want to talk about it what' that's really difficult for the for the guy yeah yeah but it wasn't it it wasn't that though because right it's not that with you i'm saying with with others i've heard that but yeah whenever i i would start uh like a conversation fear uh would like ah talk back and stuff like that but at the the moment it was hard for us was when That was still a big ah ah hill to climb to bring up something that I wanted. And that I felt like there was no space. yeah So we really had to train our relationship to create space for that automatically. And that that that has just been so... And that's where the the the crying and the fights were sometimes. Like, yeah how are we gonna... Overcome this. Overcome this. We can go in circles every time. like oh We talk it out and then after a few months, like we haven't talked about you know ah um either.
00:14:39
Speaker
like You were like, what do you want to talk about then? like around bisexual like but but so so That was a difficult loop. and yeah that yeah yeah yeah How did that break? do you and How did it break? Maybe it was around also, I think the conversations also started to become more like you having like you were like, okay, great, bisexuality, conceptually, awesome, you got it, great. But what does it actually mean if it were to be put in practice? Or the sexual thing would be put in practice? Because you were like, yeah I want a dick in my mouth. That's honestly the thing that you were very focused on at the time.
00:15:19
Speaker
um And ah it's a nice, it's a nice thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. For you and for the deco. For everyone. right and Everyone's happy. I mean. Wait, Lyra, had you explored with men before this at all, like when you're younger?
00:15:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. and And because that makes a difference for some people, like if they've never tried it versus if they have, but i didn't but either way, it's still something you could want. Yeah. I don't think it made as much as a difference as I wanted it to when I, you know, what was like, Oh, you know, I'll then I've had that then I've had that right. And then I'm, you know, then I'm good. That doesn't work like that. You didn't feel that you were like, I had that and also I want to try that again. Yeah. but But I think, I think the actual answer, because you see us thinking about it as well, the answer is fucking time. The answer is time. The answer is not, not having a resolve. The answer is doing that circle all the time and then holding each other yeah and being frustrated and crying and doing the whole thing over and over. And then reading more about yeah about being open. Well, at some point, because that became more and more a conversation of, okay, but what would it mean if we were open then, or would it be something that could fit, or would it be open, or ethical non-monogamy, or, you know, this is stuff worth like that.
Exploring Non-Monogamy: Influences and Shifts
00:16:47
Speaker
And I think I started reading Esther Perel, of course, as ah as you do, if you...
00:16:54
Speaker
want to you know learn more about relationship. You started this whole podcast with where yeah she's great. Yeah, I love her. Yeah, she's great. I read it and I think I read it out loud, a lot of parts. and At some point, we were both on a conceptual level and an intellectual level. We were like, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Monogamy. It's ah it's a crazy idea that you want to be, ah that you that you say like, okay, it's just going to be you for the rest of time.
00:17:23
Speaker
Even the word monogamy doesn't even come from the idea that you would be with even more people in your whole lifetime. it you know So the whole idea of monogamy started to break down. ah Broke enough shit down and then our circle broke down. at ah ah from But then still putting it into practice was a lot. Yes, it was fun as well. At some point we were like, okay, maybe we should go on one of the apps.
00:17:53
Speaker
Or, you know, at yeah, but then still that took a long time before we said some message. Honestly, it's not like talking to guys. and I think you you you told a a colleague this ah like a few days ago about, ah you said something about personal development. It's not about becoming better. It's about gaining new perspectives on yourself. yeah And if I look back on myself. I told a colleague this this week. Because you're a vision. I felt very, you know. right If I look back on that period.
00:18:22
Speaker
I feel like we were giving o ourselves that perspective in order for us to break that little loop down of feeling like not seen or feeling like um it it had to do a lot.
00:18:41
Speaker
with trusting that the other person wants the best thing yeah ah for you and not rooted in relationship. So you really have to kind of like unlearn all these things and yeah your new things and then have some fun because like it was also fun that we ah not even like completely broken free from that loop yet of what are we going to do. but And then we had a date standing here in the living room that we had Okay, but that was at some point, they didn't show up from out of nowhere. We were on vacation, I think, so we were on holidays for like three weeks. Did you skip apart? Yeah, you skipped apart. I think that was the first time when we were on holidays.
00:19:24
Speaker
after having conceptualized and intellectualized this for a while, I think we were on holidays and then it was safe enough for me at least to be like, okay, maybe we should put this in some kind of practice. ah Maybe we should go on field or something and we were on on an app. And then it became fun to check out people and be like, oh, maybe this is cute or this is cute. And I cannot tell. and If anyone's cute by a photo, I suck at that. But still, we did it, right? It was quite kind of fun. And that really put it already into a more practical sphere of, oh, maybe we should maybe have a threesome sometime or, you know, just to get used to the idea and also explore and maybe it's fun. And I mean,
00:20:15
Speaker
It doesn't have to be great. People build this stuff up as like, oh, if we finally try this, it's going to be the best thing ever. And it's going to fulfill all our fantasies, but people are people even a third. If it's not that great and if there's things to be laughed about or things to be So I think a big part as well is the Parisian, Libertine underground sex party. Is that where this started?
00:20:49
Speaker
No, not where it started, but like there's, I think also there were, well, we have mixed up timelines. That's for sure. I want to go to this Parisian party. I also a lot of like Corona times or after or during. So it was also like a time warp.
00:21:09
Speaker
It was before that. know yeah and and okay so So there's a few things that I can actually remember that there was one date through field that that that came here and then we went to him and it was a nice connection. And also at one point you didn't really feel it and it was like, Oh, I still want to see him. And you're like, are you sure? He's quite far away. I'm like,
00:21:32
Speaker
That's true. If I tell people I still want to see them, I have to do that actually. But it was further down. I think also we had this moment, we had a threesome with one of our sort of friends quite randomly after drinking and in oh in in the city somewhere.
00:21:49
Speaker
you remember this oh i i i i'm there yes that was fun that was fun yeah and and also i think at that time i had like a super strong connection during uh a pride walk and it was also all of a sudden it was like oh whoa i'm kind of like But then we were all right yeah or how does it <unk> like open and unhinged. We were like, yeah, but I don't think so. I think it was super, making up your living room I don't know. I don't think we were super open then. I think that really helped to be more open. And it was just a, I don't think this was a time that we went through all these.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know anymore. I think it's a gradient, Rob. And also also what I think is ah the um obviously you have more so shit to talk about. I think polyamory bisexuality doing this whole thing together, it is for people who like to talk.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah, you have to like to talk otherwise. I think that's very, very true. Did you just open your relationship to have more topics of conversation? Is that why you did all this? You just ran out of things to talk about, so you're like, I'm bi, I'm bi. And then two years later, you ran out of things to talk about. Let's have sex with other people. We'll have a new topic.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's why that's why queerness exists to be to have an interesting topic of conversation. ah Right. But now we're at such it's like, you know, tell us about what where you are now from from that point. Yeah. Well, but we're so we're in such a nice place like it. Last Pride was very nice, very, but very good and very much community. And we feel the people around us and we feel what we kind of like We have this nice queer family surrounding us and that's that's amazing. But in in terms of being open, we are quite comfortable in discussing. The queer family helps as well. It helps to have like five people at your table and I'll talk about sex and I'll talk about things and that makes it easy to to to say things.
00:24:08
Speaker
yeah We're way past that now because we can we see say anything to each other, but like it does really help to sometimes discuss something with a friend when your partner is also there but because it's less direct. That's what I really feel. But also, like now we're open in a way that It stems from wanting something for the other and believing like, oh, i I want to see what you find interesting about this person or hot or whatever. And that curiosity and that love. But also we sometimes now have very dry conversations about like, I think two or three weeks ago, this is a fun example.
Joy and Growth Through Relationship Openness
00:24:46
Speaker
A few weeks ago, um I was still working from home. I think you had the day off or something, but you were also at home.
00:24:53
Speaker
You were like, where are you going with this? And then at some point I was like, okay, i'm good i'm I'm taking a dog to the beach and after that I'll come back and then I am, I have time and then I'm good. And you were like, wait a minute.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, wait a minute. um I really, really want to have sex right now. Do you want to have sex with me right now? Because if not, in the time that you will be gone, I will probably, you know, yeah have someone come over or have a hookup somewhere or whatever. um And so, you know, ah what do you want to do? It's like, I don't want to have sex right now.
00:25:31
Speaker
But let me think, I could have sex with you when I come back if you can just hold it in for a little longer. And then you're like, s lott yeah, you dirty slut. And you were like, OK, but only if you promise me because otherwise we will have grief. OK, then then. Yeah.
00:25:47
Speaker
Then you missed out on your opportunity. You didn't mind. No, but it was not expectation because we actually had a conversation about it because I could have easily said, oh, I um i don't feel like having sex today or just go ahead or whatever. right And it still would be fun and fine. and have, you know, great vibes for everyone still. So we're, we're at that place right now. ah Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I love it. When I come got come back from a group or something and you, you can genuinely like feel good for me. That is, that is, and that, that like,
00:26:27
Speaker
helps to talk about things as well because it it it's always, it keeps on being difficult to be open. That is yeah a thing that you solve and then it's done. It's like you have to work it because there's a thing called society and it's like gravity pulling you down and not expressing all these things, but that But I think being so much safer because yeah with you, I can now also talk about if I had a hookup that didn't feel right or safe or whatever, and then I can share that with you. and that is And that's super nice as well. yes Yeah. And very, yeah, ah creating an even closer relationship.
00:27:12
Speaker
Right. Oh, when we when I talk to my partner about this stuff, whether it's good or bad or they're breaking up with someone like all of that, I feel like I learn more about her. She's learning about me. It's bringing us closer. It sounds like you two feel. Compersion, which is like the joy that your partner is having a positive experience, even if it's with someone else. How do you does jealousy ever come up? How do you deal with it if it does? I've i've been jealous. Yeah.
00:27:41
Speaker
um But also, i i it's ah also ah as and also almost the same word as afraid for me. like yeah I think jealousy, I don't feel jealous that much now.
00:27:57
Speaker
Jealousy to me comes from not like not under understanding, like not being curious what you like about someone. Yeah, is a very it's a very ah self-focused feeling ah that is always ah there to unpack further, I think, because it's usually rooted in ah insecurity. In insecurity.
00:28:20
Speaker
anxiety or in yeah not feeling good about yourself or, or even in not ah feeling like, oh, you don't spend enough time on me, you know, but that doesn't really happen. I don't think we um Also, maybe that could be more... um I can imagine that if we were to have more like separate partners, because you have mostly like if hookups or like stuff like that, I can imagine Jealousy coming into play more if it were to be... like
00:28:58
Speaker
longer relationships or to have more polyamorous situation going on. I can imagine that's an all difference. Well, I think it comes down to this the same thing like because we did that as well a little bit and it also it has I think it it has to do with a new insecurity then like, oh, are you going to take my quality time yeah or are you going to, it's different layers of insecurity. So it usually things come to kind of like tell you a message, but that doesn't mean that it can be a very annoying feeling and overwhelming and that you can do.
00:29:38
Speaker
anything else. I agree with you. it's like i always say jealous i mean I've learned this from other books and other people, but jealousy is like a signal that something is unaddressed and needs to be addressed. And it's usually more internal. It's not about the other person. It's like, what is this
00:30:10
Speaker
You just mentioned the poly and getting more if it were longer term or more intimate. Do you guys identify as poly or just open or like where what kinds of relationships but's kind of are you exploring now? Let's stretch that up as well. I think we talked open. Yeah, I think that's for sure.
00:30:31
Speaker
um Yeah, yeah. And somebody are bar more and sometimes are more further away. ah I think we're the kind of polyamory that this is between us is so like visibly strong and and has such a foundation that it sometimes people are like, oh, but I can't really come in between you. Those are the people that can't, but people around us yeah ah that we have such wonderful relationships with, see us in that way. And i I can do a hookup with somebody who doesn't see us that way, but I couldn't like
00:31:14
Speaker
be in a relationship who yeah with somebody who doesn't really understand what's going on here. saying I get very, still very taken aback, like last yeah somebody said like, oh, but if she know how you look at me, yeah she would see things differently or something like that. And I'm like,
00:31:37
Speaker
I still get so shocked of that. Like, wow, you don't see this? But we've been together for almost 10 years. So obviously we're such a big part of each other's lives and the whole ah journey, the whole queer journey has been a journey together. So we are very we are very much primary partners, I believe so.
00:31:56
Speaker
um But also there's been people that are ah that see that and are like, oh my God, it's amazing. And then all of a sudden there's a whole possibility of having another partner and But then from that place, from also seeing us as a couple and not being afraid of us being a couple, that's a very strong and important thing, I think. There's like a little lesson from this and I know you have 10 minutes, but it's like literally no rules. We don't don't really do rules. so Like a lot of rules. That was my next question, actually. Yeah. You wrote in an email to me like rules are the silent killer of an open relationship. Tell tell me about that.
00:32:40
Speaker
The first thing that people want to do when they say, oh, we open up, we should have some rules. That is that is that usually people write down shit. They already know they're going to break or they already broke or like, how can you not fall in love with somebody? Like how, how is that a rule? How can you, how can I look at somebody and not fall in love with them? How have I? oh Yeah. And the rule thing I think usually is also rooted from insecurity and it's always,
00:33:10
Speaker
Uh, it's a hypothetical, how do you say this? Hypothetical, is that a word? Um, it's not true yet. You know, the thing that you imagine could be the worst thing that could happen, but it's not, it's not happened yet. Like, Oh, you cannot date friends or you cannot have sex with friends or whatever. Because of what? Because the relationship changed. But you don't know. experience something yet yeah So you didn't have that perspective yet because you made those rules. They're old already.
00:33:40
Speaker
We had this thing at first at first, maybe not at first, but I had this thing about ah you having sex in our bed, for example, and it was like, yeah i don't maybe you cannot do that. So that was basically a rule. like True. no No sex in our bed with people that are not us, or if we are not all there.
00:34:02
Speaker
um But then at some point you were like, okay, Vera, it's kind of getting inconvenient for me because I have this nice house. I can host people and I always have to go somewhere if I want to have sex. But, you know, not everyone wants to host. And why couldn't I do it here? Inconvenient, inconvenient. And I was like... A grown up conversation. Very grown up conversation. I was like, okay, okay. And then I really had to find in myself, what's my discomfort with this?
00:34:31
Speaker
And it's not because of my bed is like this this magical place. I'm very sacred or anything. No, not at all. But the only thing I was i was like feeling hesitant about is basically hygiene. It's like, sure, you can do anything as long as i when I come back, my bed is clean. It doesn't smell like other people. It's not messy. And also the way my fucking ju jewelry because, you know, i did trust I don't trust the bitches you have over. And that was basically it. So underneath that rule of me not wanting ah to share my bed was basically only like a thing about hygiene. so Interesting. Well, the good for you for doing that work and finding out, okay, what's the real thing that that's
00:35:16
Speaker
I'm thinking about here and like not making it about something else that it that it isn't. The rules, if there are rules, the rules should be fluid like the people. And the gosh rule. It's not nice for other people either because like you want to You want to be leveling with people you meet and it's already, you know, um we're already this couple. So like, it's it's nice to just be open to people and to let them into my feelings and not into my rules.
00:35:50
Speaker
and yeah And then yeah because also they, with me, with them, I can also have like this same um conversation about feelings. like is right i don't and I do want that because of this reason or I don't want that this reason that I'm experiencing now, not that we made up together, because then it's only we're going to be each other's like prisoners or bad guys or whatever. like It's only about predefined ideas of what something could or should be Like, oh, friends, for example, or ah the it's such an... i The rules are only there to keep a certain concept there in place exactly where it is right now and not being able to expand or change. And I don't think we should do that. To me the only rule, and I wouldn't even call it a rule, but sort of like the principle I would like to live by is to be honest with your partner and like to be checking in because how you feel if you're honest now could be different than later. but like
00:36:52
Speaker
that's the what makes the strong relationship is being able to talk about anything, whatever comes up and being as honest as you can about this stuff. And also not to um like being honest, but also don't expect from your partner to always have to tell everything. So we're still open, we have to tell tell each other everything right away. No, you're you're Um, you can have your privacy and your own thoughts and ideas and encounters. You don't have to tell me everything as long as you're honest about how you feel and how you're doing. Yeah. Sometimes I think can describe like months later, because then I kind of like processed it and then it's like, Oh, right ah dis' and that's fine. That's.
00:37:37
Speaker
Fine. Right. Sometimes it's hard to share stuff that you're in the middle of processing
00:37:54
Speaker
I just want to ask you this very briefly. i don i don't It's probably a whole other episode maybe, but you mentioned in an email to me about like as you're exploring the poly life and opening things up that you're getting into like sex positivity and BDSM and maybe kink
Exploring Kink, BDSM, and Sex Positivity
00:38:10
Speaker
scenes. like Briefly, what's ah what's that been like?
00:38:15
Speaker
oh Yeah. For me? If you want to talk about it. Yes, absolutely. I love talking about it because for me, this is like even the next step in being able to communicate your needs and also to be able to communicate the things you want and don't want.
00:38:31
Speaker
um So we were in this ah Parisian scene and we met ah this girl there and she actually taught me a lot about consent and ah being able to feel your body throughout sex and being able to say like, at any point in time, oh, I like this or I but don't want this or this and see sex not as an act that you just do in, I don't know how many times, how long, you know, but just to be in sex for a longer time ah with people for a weekend or a day or a night. I don't know. But for me to be to not see or think about sex in a way of ah this is an act and has a beginning and an ending, but more play it's a play. it's play and And with that comes.
00:39:24
Speaker
For me, true consent, not just, oh, do you want to have sex? Yes or no? No. ah Do you like this? Can I go here? Would you like to try out something like this? Oh, oh, ha ha, fun. and gender play and everything is way more possible there because it's so safe. um And for me, in like my sexuality, like I like i mentioned before, ah I never really explored my sexuality in a way of what could it mean or what could it be.
00:39:54
Speaker
And for me now, it's like, it's opened up this whole new world of, um, yeah, of finding out what I like and how I like to interact with people. Cool. Bringing the fashion into it fair made for this last pride, this amazing leather harness. Um, and it's so, it's so nice and it's, It's kind of like, it's like fetish wear, but you made it yourself and like, and then you were wearing it like, now I, now I get the fetish part of it because it does something like that. The leather, the leather fetish, it's how I feel and it's a smell, does something to it. It's like, yeah, really, really nice. You can cut your dick to it. I can, yeah, I can stretch. Oh, me. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, but the play elements really changed something in my way of thinking about sex. Taking it out of the context of
00:41:01
Speaker
beginning and ending. We're just playing and enjoying each other's body and feelings and vibes and, oh, you like this? Oh, maybe I can bite you here. Oh, you like that? Okay. Maybe try harder. So continuously. Yeah, I love it. There's so much pressure on sex and the completion of a sex act and an orgasm. And like in these play spaces I've been to, especially kink scenes, like it's It's what you're describing. It's like all these little moments and what you like and don't, but it's not like all building up toward this one thing that means sex has happened. It's like oh it's actually redefining what intimacy is and yeah learning about yourself. Yeah. We love redefining, don't we? Yes, yes, exactly. we we are almost out of time. Last final question, and then we'll have to have you back to get more into all the BDSM and the pegging that you're doing. ah But but ah for today, what we touched on this a lot. It seems like I can hear this in all your answers. But to leave off, how does your sexuality bring you joy in your life?
00:42:14
Speaker
Ooh, that's a nice question. i I once thought that it would always bring bring me pain. I really believe that. I yeah broke through it at a Tony Robbins seminar. I'm not even kidding you. do wrote Really? Is that true? We did this in the living room and you know with the whole story. It's a whole story. Oh my God. i was like That is shocking. It is, but it's such a night wall.
00:42:39
Speaker
And it should be like a ah limiting belief, right? You want to break through. And it was like bisexuality will always bring me pain. And I really thought that, like, because like, oh, I can't find flesh and if we can make this relationship work, but still underneath it all, it will still bring pain. And it just does not. It was a lie. How does it bring me joy? It brings me joy in the.
00:43:05
Speaker
I think that people who see me and and look at me and are like, oh, nice. I see you like when I walk to the train in the morning and I see people looking looking at me and see new possibilities in their eyes that, yeah, that's what I really live for. I tattoo the word muse on Leroy's arm because he loves to be seen by people and then, you know, give them new inspiration or new ideas. Yeah, that's really how... for you enjoy yeah I think for me it's... I love it. I think it's gave... it Yeah, it has given me and continuously gives me a ah better and deeper and more joyous way to connect with people. um I think most that's for me mostly it to be able to let my guards down and to be open with people.
00:43:59
Speaker
and really, really find connection. I think if I would have never discovered this part of myself, I i would have never have those deep connections in that level. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, it's like you saw a lot of what you guys have described in the journey of this is like difficult conversations and difficult feelings and like learning to address that even when it's scary. And I think It is really scary, but like then you if you do that, the work, you get to the place where you just described where like that actually opens so much up and it you gain all this awareness of yourself that's complicated and you you really just like have more confidence in yourself and ability to to have those conversations and go deeper and deeper.
Supportive Queer Community and Personal Growth
00:44:48
Speaker
What's he doing? He's done. He's running off to the toilet now.
00:44:54
Speaker
He's had enough of this interview for a second already and he was like
00:45:00
Speaker
Well, well, OK, I guess we'll wait to end the interview until he gets back. I was literally 30 seconds away from that. But when it's done, it's done. That's true. with No, but it's true. The thing, you know, the connection and the joy, ah the deep, deep, deep connections and also the things we we experience now with our little queer family. There's some like sometimes people joining us. They're like 21 and just transitioning, for example, or finding their gender and to be able to connect with with people that are so young, but also are so wise already. And I don't know, it's yeah just connected, ah created such a great connection with so many amazing people. You brought his back. Yeah, that was fast. That was fast. Yeah, it is changing among yeah it is changing um young people. Hello. And as as as important as it is to do the hard work and the things that brings you, I do hope it's not as hard for the next generation and you know the way things are changing and the things they're growing up with as normal that we didn't grow up with as normal. I hope that makes it easier. But then again, the the hard stuff is forms who you are too and is important as well. So yeah that makes sense. yes And everything matters. Like every every time that we we talk about it, we show ourselves, we fucking kiss and gay bar or ah whatever. Like when I'm picking up my kid from school wearing makeup, like ever everything you do creates culture. Yeah. and
00:46:35
Speaker
so yeah Cool. Great. One beautiful place to leave. We could go on for hours when I visit Amsterdam. We'll have to do another in-person episode. but yeah But it's also i just beautiful that you had that that you overcame that limiting belief of like, this is always a negative thing in my life and now look like how not just okay it is, but how positive it is and how much joy it's brought you and new experiences it has brought you and yeah so for sure beautiful beautiful yeah well thank you uh thanks Vera and Leroy for uh finally i'm so glad we finally got you on i'm excited to see you again in person someday come visit los angeles i'll come to amsterdam thanks for making this rob yes thank you so much thank you for having us we we were on parallel journeys it seems like in 2017 2018 yeah yeah yeah i'm glad you guys found the podcast and that we
00:47:28
Speaker
connected and and everyone should go listen to your podcast.
Conclusion and Sign-Off
00:47:33
Speaker
If you speak English, you can listen to the episode I'm on. If you speak Dutch, check out all of them and check the show notes for some other links and stuff.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah. I'll put your Instagram in the show notes. People can watch some clips and stuff. The names are too difficult. Yeah. Yeah. I can't even no try to spell your name, but it'll be in the show. It'll be in the title of the episode and I'll copy and paste it. Cool. Well, thank you guys so much. It's great to see you. This was a lovely chat. Thanks for being on Two Bye Guys. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.
00:48:18
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Minzer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.