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Under Construction with Clark Nesselrodt
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Sign up for my discussion series, FLUID CONVERSATIONS: https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/fluid-conversations
My guest this week is my friend and spiritual guide, Clark Neselrodt -- he's also a coach, meditation facilitator, end-of-life caregiver, and father. We chatted about his unique bisexual journey, how to feel the vibrations and energy of your own queerness and authenticity, the spiritual work he facilitates, how getting in touch with your true self can connect you to divine realms and spirits -- and then we got into a discussion of his forthcoming book, "KINK: Un-crippling Our Secret Selves", how shame operates both on an individual level and in our society, and how the urges and callings of a kink can lead your toward your true life's purpose.
If you have no clue what we're talking about in terms of the meditation work that Clark facilitates, feel free to get in touch with me or him to ask! And if you have some idea... you're probably on the right track...
Stay tuned for part 2 with Clark next week, plus bonus content on Patreon!
Clark's website: https://www.clarknesselrodt.com/
Clark on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@keyofclark
Clark on IG: https://www.instagram.com/keyofclark
Clark on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KeyofClark
Two Bi Guys on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/robertbrookscohen
Rob's Website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/
Sign up for a free intro call with Rob re: individual coaching: https://calendly.com/robertbrookscohen/25-minute-free-intro-call
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Transcript
Introduction: Personal Growth and Transformation
00:00:01
Speaker
I want them to stop doing that.
00:00:06
Speaker
I have a feeling it's not going to. Yeah, no, this is ah this is what it is. we're under We're all under construction and this is the reminder. this is This is the season we are in, exactly.
00:00:20
Speaker
Okay.
Meet Clark Nesselroth
00:00:32
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of Two Bye Guys. They're all special. I'm so excited for this one. My friend Clark is here. Clark Nesselroth is a coach, a spiritual guide, a facilitator, end of life caregiver, and father of two.
00:00:49
Speaker
Rooted in a lifelong spiritual path shaped by years of executive leadership and deeply enriched by his work with indigenous teachers and wisdom lineages, he holds space for individuals and groups to experience healing, clarity, expression, and transformation.
00:01:05
Speaker
Our birthright as human beings, if you have no idea what that means, we're going to tell you a little bit more. I have been so happy to connect with Clark in my life over the past year.
00:01:17
Speaker
And we have so much we have so much in common that we'll talk about. And there's construction right outside my door ah that we have tried to avoid and can't can't get rid of. So that's the backdrop of this is we're all under construction. We're all working on ourselves. It's a time of change and healing and new balconies.
00:01:38
Speaker
And ah that that sound is the reminder that we're we're all a work
Metaphors of Growth
00:01:44
Speaker
in progress. So welcome finally to Two Bye Guys, Clark Nesselrode.
00:01:49
Speaker
Thank you. The two bye guys are here and the construction is underway to allow us to step out and have a whole new view on those balconies. So it's just perfect. Exactly. i know. I'm so excited to finally get back out there and experience that yeah view anew. And it needs to go away for some time, and I can't go outside ah for me to appreciate it anew.
00:02:11
Speaker
Totally. Totally. ah So we have so much to
Identity and Labels: Conflicted Feelings
00:02:15
Speaker
talk about. Let's start where kind of we usually start on this podcast, two buy guys, buy one buy guy, which is actually like we've talked about it a little, but we haven't really...
00:02:27
Speaker
We haven't really dived into this, you and me. Like, I know a lot about your past, but I don't actually know, like, how do you identify is ah is a question I ask people. Oh, my God, Jesus.
00:02:41
Speaker
ah Like, I know the history, but how do you see yourself in this community? How do you identify? And then let's talk about how you got there. Well, I'm hoping you can help me figure it out.
00:02:52
Speaker
I was, I was, I knew you were going to ask this and I honestly don't know. And it is an area around which I have had a lot of static and dissonance. So, um, there's kind of a core conflict for me because, um well, I'll say it I'll set up some facts first, but I'll come back to the core conflict. i grew up very much wanting a girlfriend, um,
00:03:17
Speaker
Yeah. Wanting a girlfriend really bad. And, then but, but, you know, there was an awkwardness that never quite worked. And then freshman year of college, I actually got cast in a play ah first semester of college and in the play,
00:03:31
Speaker
There is a love triangle between a woman and her two male best friends. And I was cast as the very straight, very traditional husband that she was like running around with these two guys on.
00:03:43
Speaker
And they wanted her desperately. And one night when she kind of shines them on, they end up kind of falling into this homoerotic romp. ah And so you know it's Noel Coward in the 1930s, I think. and it's you know It's introducing this notion of bisexuality in a time that was really kind of pivotal.
00:04:02
Speaker
And what struck me was, as I was standing in the wings, playing this very staunch, uptight like representation of the of the traditional way um I found myself getting very jealous of those two guys and really wanted, I wanted the authority of the play and that fantasy to give me permission to play that role of being queer.
00:04:25
Speaker
And one thing that has defined me as a person throughout my life is... I ain't wasting no time. Like once I figure something out, it is like boom, boom, boom, figure it out. And I went from sort of not even being an ah aware of any kind of – there was an awareness. Like, you know, i guys caught my eye but it was always really easy to rationalize. I had a whole story of like I don't want to be with them. I want to be them.
00:04:52
Speaker
To be them. Yes, exactly. Because I was pudgy. I was awkward. Like, you know, there's all these super athletic hot guys in high school with the girlfriends. Like I wanted to be like that. So I thought that's where this urge came from.
00:05:04
Speaker
And there's still something to that for sure. That where, where my sexuality has merged with my own desires in my quest for identity has always been a very sticky space as I think we'll get into when we talk about my book.
00:05:18
Speaker
Yes. so I'm excited talk about the book. Me too. So I went into...
First Experiences and Self-Discovery
00:05:24
Speaker
ah my freshman year with all of this brewing and from the moment I sort of had that revelation in the theater, um you know, it then it became this like all out dogged pursuit for some kind of gay experience. And it took me like six weeks to find a guy to make out with me.
00:05:43
Speaker
And, you know, a handful of kind of awkward makeout sessions and sexual experiences that all broke out like in fall, like October, November of my freshman year.
00:05:54
Speaker
By March, I had met the guy that I spent the next seven years with. Like I just went straight into this very long-term relationship and the train left the station and we moved from rural Virginia to Chelsea in New York City.
00:06:07
Speaker
um i was literally living about right around the corner from the Rawhide Bar. Like there were rainbow flags everywhere. um i sort of was thrust and at 20 years old into this hyper-sexualized place a queer experience of life. And, you know, there was, there was a little bit of stickiness coming out for like a minute, just that initial, like, how do I tell people, but I didn't grow up in a place or time where I felt like I had to hide this. Like it, it didn't, it wasn't hard for me. It was emotionally challenging for a minute, but it just kind of happened.
00:06:42
Speaker
My point is I never had any reason to question it. I didn't have any internalized homophobia I was aware of. Like this was just a memo I hadn't yet gotten. So once we were out and doing it, it was like fantastic. Who gives a shit? Let's roll.
00:06:57
Speaker
um and you know, I then went through the process of that relationship was definitely not meant for the long haul. um A lot of, you know, going through all this in Chelsea, you get to have some pretty wild experiences and that could be its own book unto itself.
00:07:12
Speaker
But the what's relevant to this conversation is what happened when I was about 27 years old, I think.
Spiritual Awakening on Fire Island
00:07:20
Speaker
I was in Fire Island Pines, one of the gay epicenters of our planet, out proud with a new boyfriend, um fighting off the urge to move in with him way too soon.
00:07:30
Speaker
And to make a very long, beautiful story very short for this conversation, a woman came walking into our share house kitchen, something wild fell over me. I was in the midst of an incredible spiritual awakening in my life. My intuition was popping. I was but wouldn't say I was hearing voices, but I was getting very clear guidance of where to go and what to do next. And though i didn't technically hear a voice, it feels very accurate to say, I heard a voice say, you are going to marry her, have children, and save both of your lives in the process.
00:08:03
Speaker
And as quickly as I had decided I was gay in college, that quickly I now felt totally straight. Like the thought of being with men was no longer interesting to me. My boyfriend was literally on his way to the island to meet me. And this is a guy that five minutes earlier i was like...
00:08:22
Speaker
madly crazy over the top falling in love with. And now it was like his presence was revolting to me. I just wanted to be with her. And it was a fascinating thing because my entire life was built around my queerness. I lived in Chelsea, my clothes, the way I spoke, everything about my life was somehow related to being queer.
00:08:45
Speaker
And now all of a sudden, none of that resonates anymore. And it's like we talk about in some of the transformational work we do together. When you begin vibrating at a higher frequency, very quickly, all the lower frequency things that have been resonating with you, they fall away very quickly because those two though those those they don't there's not harmony.
The Limitation of Labels
00:09:06
Speaker
There's dissonance. And so things move quickly.
00:09:09
Speaker
um And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of my gay friends sort of turned their back on me. They wanted nothing to do with it. I left Chelsea. I moved to Boston. I bought some Dockers and became straight.
00:09:22
Speaker
Wow. Okay. Fascinating. Oh, I have so many questions to ask you. awesome. I'll pause for a second and let you get in here. Okay. And the construction is like really giving me some work to do to until i now present and stay focused.
00:09:38
Speaker
It's good. It's good work. It's challenging, but um i have some, okay. I want to get into the frequency of it. Uh, the And the guidance. Okay, but first to go back, the Noel Coward play, Cluing You In, like that make that makes so much sense because I only saw this in myself in art and often in like a Broadway play.
00:10:00
Speaker
like i remember um Raul Esparza and Company and the little hints. Yes. the hints of non straightness in that show. And and what you said about it, giving permission, like, Oh, if it's real there, maybe it can be real in life here.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah. um And so, and i I have more things to get into, but did you, did you identify as queer at that time? Or did you think of yourself as a gay man? I think I rode the wave for a few, like maybe a year of like, oh, I'm bi. Cause isn't that just sort of how we all transition through. um i mean, I'm joking, but you know, that's a very common thing as you're, as you're stepping into your comfort with all of these things.
00:10:43
Speaker
um And I couldn't deny the fact and can't deny the fact that I had been really into girls and, and wanted to have those experiences. So, and this goes to the heart of the conflict. I still feel.
00:10:55
Speaker
um how can I be either of these things when they're always shifting and changing in my life? And I'll get to the heart of the conflict just to not bury the lead.
00:11:06
Speaker
um My biggest takeaway of this entire wild experience that I'm still processing and living is the labels.
Ego and Identity
00:11:15
Speaker
don't want to speak to map this onto anybody else. So I'll speak for myself, but I really do feel there's a broadness and a universality wanting to come through for this.
00:11:23
Speaker
The labels have only served to limit me. when what is actually happening is an infinite expansion back toward oneness. And whether it is, I'm a white guy, or I'm a bi guy, or I'm a guy, or I'm a dad, or these these these things that we think we are, are not bad. They're vital to who we are.
00:11:44
Speaker
But when we label ourself as such and say, I'm this, not that, we are creating separation. And one of the things that defines me in this life is everything happening here that we see, feel, touch, experience, it is all a reflection of a deeper metaphysics that is happening. At the end of the day, it's all sound and light waves running this universe. And whether you bought coffee this morning or tea is just a reflection of those sound and light waves.
00:12:10
Speaker
And Any place in physics, of if that kind of physics, where there is separation, those waves can't travel. And when they can't travel, they can't expand.
00:12:22
Speaker
And when they can't expand, they can't resonate the most deeply. And we are on a mission on this earth to expand those waves and find more harmonics and frequency. So I've been here to say from day one,
00:12:37
Speaker
I don't want to label myself because I'm here to weed out these separatist things that limit me. Yeah. All of that resonates so much.
00:12:48
Speaker
It's exactly the kind the kinds of thinking, the way of thinking that I've like been moving towards, but I, here's what I'll say about the labels and like, I think you're clear of like the no label and the labels box you in. And I ah agree for the most part, except at the early stages, I think for me and many others, the label can be a bridge to that oneness.
00:13:14
Speaker
And so the, and, and in, you you know, even though bisexuality is a word, I just talked about this with my last guest, like he wrote a book called fluid and his whole thing is like,
00:13:26
Speaker
like everything is moving and changing and the frequencies are fluid all the time. And that's just kind of a fact of life. And he uses that word. Even even that word is a label that's going to eventually do something to box you in.
00:13:42
Speaker
But the goal of all of these labels is like connect you to the oneness and truth of it just is what it is. And it can be anything. And it's and it's infinite. Can I say one more thing about that?
00:13:54
Speaker
yeah One of the most pernicious aspects of our nature as humans is our tendency to need to label things right, wrong, good or bad.
00:14:04
Speaker
When in fact, everything is just a progression and an evolution and a crescendo. And I know for a fact I could not have arrived in this place of liberation in being unlabeled had I not first known what I was.
00:14:21
Speaker
And so this is not a conversation about whether we should or shouldn't have labels. This is an awareness of when those labels are no longer serving you. Yes, yes.
00:14:32
Speaker
Exactly. Well put.
Transformation and Ego
00:14:35
Speaker
and this takes us to the next hot button thing which is to jump ahead in the conversation to the transformational work that we get to do together um it really all comes and again i'll speak for myself but i think there's a universality here at the end of the day we are here to reign in our egos and refine our relationships with them And I know firsthand that for many years, the I am this, I am that, I have discovered myself as this, it is all part of this presentation to the world.
00:15:07
Speaker
It is all part of our clamoring to matter and to get other people to buy in to this presentation of ourselves that we are creating. And I see a lot of people using a lot of energy and putting a lot of force in these days into, you need to pay attention to me.
00:15:26
Speaker
Because I am here and I am this and that matters. And I am lacking if you don't reflect that validation for me. And even that has served a purpose. And yes, part of that is part of this very vital fight to claim the rights that all deserve to have.
00:15:42
Speaker
And yet there comes a point where you have... I think the greatest evolution comes from being able to say, i identify as these things and these things mean to me and it's important to me that you don't limit me because of these things and wouldn't it be nice if you also liked this and I don't give a shit and I'm even willing to acknowledge this thing that I feel so strongly I am today, i am limiting my becoming if I don't acknowledge the potential that it might change.
00:16:13
Speaker
And this is kind of my bottom line to kind of blow up the airwaves kind of a thing. This notion of this is how I was born and you, this, I could never have chosen this and ah you have to,
00:16:26
Speaker
It has not been my experience. And the notion that I have been cast into this life with any kind of condition, or you have to be this way, that I don't have the power to grow, change, and evolve, that's true oppression to me.
00:16:42
Speaker
And it's an oppression that we put onto ourselves. Because if I have a vision of what I am, i am cutting off the frequency that would allow me to become something beyond my wildest imagination.
00:16:53
Speaker
And that is the person I want to become.
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah, ah beautiful. I'm so glad you're here because you have this amazing way, and I think this is why i'm I'm drawn to the work we're doing together, like, of really crystallizing things that I know and feel in a way that just, like, makes so much sense when you hear it.
00:17:14
Speaker
I often cry when Clark shares at the end of ah meditation. Yeah. Because it's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was feeling. And you' I'm not crying right now, but you've done it There's usually three other people in the room like going, wrap it up, wrap it up, wrap it up. Yeah, and and I'm like in tears, like, keep going, keep going.
00:17:35
Speaker
but But what you just said is like the last 10 years of my life like I remember... being about to turn 30, finally addressing these attractions I had towards men and thinking, you know, I don't want to turn 30 without like figuring this out and what it means for me.
00:17:52
Speaker
And the beginning of my 30s was about me and finding myself and identifying myself and finding this word by that helped me feel like I'm normal and not alone and other people have felt this.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that was like so important for me. But from that point till now, and I just turned 40, like it's almost been this reverse process of moving away.
00:18:17
Speaker
Like once I understood myself and I'm comfortable with that, now it's like moving away from that specific thing, bisexuality and what is it. into bigger things. And when I was approaching 40 for a while, I was like, i wonder what my next thing will be. Like ah for the whole year of 39, I was like, what what's going to happen? i you know I'm going to turn 40. And I'm pretty sure it's like this work we've done that you've brought me into and the expansion of
00:18:51
Speaker
my consciousness and the the ego dropping away. And like, I still get the importance of identifying yourself and connecting with community. And that's, it's great. And it's a necessary step to get to the next level. But the past year of my life has really been about letting go of that ego and connecting with the bigger energy that just is what it is. And i don't know, can't even label it.
00:19:17
Speaker
Absolutely. and And the beauty is, and I'm reporting from like the front lines of my own life right now, um we have our egos, which are desperate to hold on to these things that limit us, our egos don't want us to figure this out.
00:19:32
Speaker
our Our egos are very happy with us and our limitations and our and our worthlessness and our lack of abundance and our scarcity. When we are those things, we need the ego that gives the ego value. The ego is thrilled. The ego is constantly shredding at you to not figure it out. um But,
00:19:52
Speaker
What's so beautiful is when you gain that trust, I truly feel that trust is one of the superpowers that we have all come to planet Earth to cultivate. When you cultivate that trust to surrender and begin letting these things go, um you actually don't lose anything because all of the things that are vital parts of your frequency, if there is a symphony currently playing the crescendo
Meditation and Energetic Change
00:20:17
Speaker
of you right now,
00:20:19
Speaker
And you begin to take away those barriers that would prevent that sound from flowing. The harmonics are all there. So there are several, and I can give you a specific story if it would be helpful.
00:20:31
Speaker
um There are some things that I've always really wanted to accomplish in my life, dreams that I've always really on a deeply intuitive level been like, this this needs to happen.
00:20:41
Speaker
And Make some progress, always making progress. Every 10 years, the cycle would bring this topic back around, try it again. But it would always not get out of the gate. Something would always stop it.
00:20:54
Speaker
And as I've done the deeper ego refinement around it and finally let go of my need to play this role, you take a step back. Now it's actually happening.
00:21:05
Speaker
But it's happening because it is in service to that vibration serving, not to my ego. Because when I finally have done this, it will matter and people will notice me. With that part now being gone, the shit's actually popping off better than you ever could have imagined.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And I want to get to the details of it, but I've noticed a very similar thing for me too. And the work I've been doing in the media entertainment industry for the last five years has, has often come up against a wall. And I've always looked at it as like, I want to be successful and do this and that. And you know, there was ego to it.
00:21:42
Speaker
And a lot of that has fallen away recently. And the, what comes up out of that has been really magical and special and like, you know, in the right frequency to where I am now. And like, you know, the comedy I'm doing is so much fun and fulfilling. Like I'm finding these things that, you know, like I couldn't have found when I was trying so hard to be a certain way and have accomplished certain things.
00:22:09
Speaker
Also, what you said really resonates this week, especially because we recently this weekend had did a meditation where the insights that came through for me this time were to release everything, release these old stories.
00:22:25
Speaker
You know, it didn't specifically tell me release like identity, but it said release everything, release all the stories, the thoughts, the overthinking. And it's not that those things go away.
00:22:39
Speaker
i think it's that they're there now always. And I can let go of the the story of it and just trust that. That everything that has led up to this moment is in there.
00:22:52
Speaker
and don't have to remember it all or try hard to make it happen. It's there. i have to let go and release it and just let let the new growth happen and not try so hard. Like a plant. The plants aren't trying to grow. They're just, let the leaves fall and then they grow again.
00:23:11
Speaker
Most of the really good stuff that's happening in this universe is happening way out there beyond this cosmos. And the magic as I've discerned it and everything I'm about to say is like my little story of how I hold on to this knowledge. you can The beauty of all of this is you get to create your own story.
00:23:29
Speaker
There's no universal theology. There's no one guy that figured this all out and we have to all follow him. um there's There's just ah some truths that we begin to how am I going to describe this to myself so I don't forget?
00:23:41
Speaker
Because we're here living lives in bodies that are designed to forget. And the trick is to learn how to remember. And so one of my stories of how I hold on to these truths is we're just here creating sound and light vibration and frequency to send out into the universe. So if I've wanted my entire life to be a Broadway star and I finally make it onto that stage,
00:24:05
Speaker
What's actually happening in my human experience and what's actually happening in the theater, that is all just like this nucleus of energy that is sending a sound wave, a light vibration out into the far reaches of the cosmos.
00:24:18
Speaker
And all of that joy, all that accomplishment, all that artistic expression, it's doing something out there that is really changing the planet, that is really changing the cosmos, the world, writ large, all way the divine itself.
00:24:33
Speaker
When we're down here going, but I want to win a Tony, that vibration's not flying as freely as it should. We are affecting that vibration. We are muddying that vibration.
00:24:44
Speaker
So we have to get better at going, oh, I'm not even doing any of this from my own experience. I'm doing it for all of that out there. And the joy I get to feel is my reward.
00:24:58
Speaker
that's It's a catch-22, as is everything in the universe, because winning the Tony could bring you a whole lot of joy.
Purpose-Driven Life
00:25:04
Speaker
There are also a whole lot of people that have won the Tony and had the worst nights of their lives afterwards, because you finally get it and realize, oh, fuck, that wasn't it. I still feel like shit inside.
00:25:17
Speaker
And so it's this refinement process of recognizing you can get on the stage, you can win the Tony, And I don't even know how to verbalize this because until you're in that place of transformation where you're starting to get this, it's almost impossibly to describe to someone.
00:25:34
Speaker
It's that subtle shift in doing those things, not because you need to, to tell your Facebook friends and finally they'll see I was worth something, but because it's what you're here for.
00:25:46
Speaker
And now you're living your purpose and you're doing what you're supposed to do. And that is the greatest source of joy. And I'm in a phase right now after the meditation we did Sunday where i had a really specific pivotal thing shift. I laid down like an ego holding that I've had some a hard time with.
00:26:03
Speaker
And this is what's so magical about this process. I woke up with the insight that I made a choice. And i'll tell you the story. and And I made the choice that represented this huge ego shift for me.
00:26:16
Speaker
The energy that came into my body the rest of the day was so intense I had to pull my car over. I was vibrating at such a high level. There was so much high frequency light and sound flowing through me.
00:26:29
Speaker
I felt like I had done heroin. I've not done heroin before, but it's what I imagine. And it's like, holy, this was like a lifelong blockage that you finally have that constipated poop. And it's like, get ready. Because when that energy flows, there's no stopping it.
00:26:44
Speaker
And like, even my TikTok video I posted since then, it's content I have recorded months ago. But in this new it was the first one that went over this many views.
00:26:56
Speaker
And I'm just seeing all over my life things that were a little bit muted, a little bit diminished. It's like I almost can't handle the brightness of the light that's now flowing through. And now that becomes its own practice to hold that and ground it.
00:27:11
Speaker
Wow, beautiful. I want to ask more later about like... what that feels like and how people can notice that even without the meditations, we'll get there.
00:27:22
Speaker
But ah yeah, it makes like what you described about the letting go of the ego and doing the thing because it's what you're meant to do and where you're supposed to be and it brings you joy and you and you put that joy into the universe over the construction.
00:27:40
Speaker
Your voice sounds so good and so clear. It's honestly not that distracting. So I would just go and try to ignore it. Okay. Is that a metaphor or an actual advice about the construction? Take it for what you will.
00:27:55
Speaker
I like it as both. Okay. um I can feel the vibration of the construction in my body. um But yeah, that's exactly the shift that I have felt over the last year is like,
00:28:09
Speaker
do I'm doing similar things, but I'm doing it with a different energy and with a different intention and goal. And it just feels so good. Hey,
00:28:22
Speaker
everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode with Clark Nesselrote. There's a lot more coming up with Clark and there's a whole nother episode next week. Part two will air soon. You may have noticed I've been on a little mini hiatus within this season of Two Bye Guys. I've been very busy and slowed down. down a little here, but I've now got a few episodes in the pipeline, so I'm hoping to put out the second half of this season a bit more quickly and in time for Pride Month.
00:28:46
Speaker
On that note, one of the things I've been busy with is developing my coaching practice, and something I really want to do as part of this practice is to develop by community. We talk about it here on this podcast so much, why community is important.
00:28:59
Speaker
So there's lots of ways I'm thinking about doing this. Stay tuned in the future for more things. But for now, one thing I want to do is a check-in sharing discussion circle during Pride Month for bi, fluid, queer questioning people on specific topics each session. Everyone will have a chance to drop in, check in, share what is going on for you on the topic of the week. I'll talk about some of my thoughts on the topic and then we'll have a little group discussion, one hour only. I'm going to do it every week beginning May 27th and then through June through Pride Month. For the exact dates and the topics, check my link tree. I'll put it in the link tree for both 2BuyGuys on social media and Robert Brooks Cohen. All the info and the dates will be there. You can sign up if you're interested. These are totally free.
00:29:45
Speaker
No cost to join. One hour. Different days of the week. Some weeknights, some weekends so that I know different people have different schedules. I want to make sure people can come to at least one. So yeah, stay tuned for more, but that's for now. DM me with any questions. And now here's more with Clark Nesselrode.
00:30:07
Speaker
I want to get to your book and I want to get to like the how the feelings of these vibrations. But you said a few things I just want to comment on and and ask you about. ah First of all, the noticing hot guys before like you're aware of it and this idea of wanting to be them and in addition to like later realizing wanting to be with them.
00:30:29
Speaker
resonates completely. I remember seeing like, you know, like underwear model ads and just thinking like, I want to be that I want to be hot like that. But actually, it's a little of both. I was attracted to them and want to be it.
00:30:42
Speaker
And like, you know, cool guys in high school. ah Same thing. And it's so funny. lived in Chelsea. We were probably in New York at the same. What years were you in Chelsea? This was 04 to 2012.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, so I was there. I wasn't in Chelsea that whole time, but that was those were my New York years. Interesting. I was in New York 07 through ah while, but I guess I wasn't out. So we never would have crossed paths in the queer space or had wild random connections in Chelsea. But it's interesting we were overlapping there.
00:31:14
Speaker
um Okay. You said in Fire Island, you met a woman who would become your wife and this you had the spiritual awakening. You got clear guidance. Something wild fell over you. How you...
00:31:26
Speaker
how do you notice that? Like, what was that actually like? What makes you say that this something came over you? You know, those things, I think that one of the things that we have to learn about ourselves the most, if we are going to be having any kind of pseudo-spiritual tapped into a greater source and power, and there's lots of people that just choose not to do that.
00:31:51
Speaker
And, you know, one of the fundamental, the fundamental rule of this life we're living is free will. You know, I'm in deep belief of a magical... world of higher powers and spirits that are here guiding us and influencing us and affecting us And they cannot and will not do so if you don't have and if they don't have consent.
00:32:11
Speaker
So you have to not just be aware of these things, but to invite them into your life. So if you are someone like me that has invited that into your life, which to me has never been a choice, it's I arrived on this planet with a clear knowing that the divine was, and my only purpose was to get back to it and learn how to commune with it more purely.
00:32:32
Speaker
So if you're willing and and able to to do that thing, um knowing there's something greater and seeking to refine your ability to commune with it and understand it, you come to recognize that just as Superman has this power and Batman has that power,
00:32:49
Speaker
we all have different gifts of how we tap into that. And so some people hear literally hear things. Some people have these deep physical knowings in their bodies. I'm agnostic.
00:33:00
Speaker
I just know. There are times where knowledge lands in my psyche with such a clear thud. It's like something that might have taken years of cogitating on or thinking about or or doing a logic game with.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's just there, like an instant download. And throughout my youth, i didn't really... i question it more now because... you have to learn how to discern that voice from the voice of the ego, the arrival of that knowledge from an idea that your ego gives you in service of something lower vibrational. So all I can tell you is in a season of my life where a very specific way of information downloading into my being led to things that only served me when acted upon, um this information came in that same way.
00:33:51
Speaker
Looked at through less of a spiritual lens, I just had a good idea. But one might ask, why would a guy that was happy as a clam in his gay relationship with a fabulous apartment in one of the most gay neighborhoods, and like, my whole life was built around this, why would my good idea be to now be with a woman And blow all of that up. It was coming from a place beyond logic.
00:34:16
Speaker
And when it landed and I felt into it, I felt the zeal. I felt the peace. I felt the exhilaration and the excitement and all the things that was like, why would I not now do this? And oh, by the way, it isn't even a choice. that The thought of going back to my boyfriend is now impossible.
00:34:35
Speaker
Yeah. Fascinating, makes a lot of sense and also is so hard to do, to just like listen to those voices and and actually believe and trust that it's real.
00:34:46
Speaker
I think I spent, I think like many overthinkers and people pleasers and people, probably a lot of other queer people are in that category. Like I spent a lot of years doubting and resisting some of those things that would come to me and not even realizing that they were insights coming to me.
Intuition and Life Purpose
00:35:05
Speaker
Just um thinking that they're the same as the, the doubt thoughts and the worry thoughts and just, they're all in this mix. Yeah.
00:35:13
Speaker
And I would just circle around all of them and not be able to differentiate. And I think a lot of the work we've done and even just like, like quiet meditation work, like just actually sitting and meditating alone and getting quiet, that is, has really been helpful to sort out those different voices and yeah different guidance and like,
00:35:36
Speaker
ah and Getting quiet. It's so easy. but But yeah, i and not to just like go around in circles and back and forth. and The doubts and the worries obscure it. my God, it never stops. Well, it's not just... I'll give you a break because I want to jump in on this. It's not just the doubt and worry.
00:35:57
Speaker
And this is where our conversation really comes full circle. It would have been very easy for me, if not the more common human reaction, to have had the experience I had standing in that beach house kitchen that day, and to have had my next thought be, this is crazy, I'm gay.
00:36:17
Speaker
And to have turned my back and walked away from a situation that has given me the rest of my life. And i have met not a few gay men along the way in the almost now 15 years since this all began to unfold in my life that have heard my story, gotten a little misty-eyed and said something to the effect of, you know...
00:36:40
Speaker
It happened to me once too. And I always wondered what happened to her because they they couldn't entertain it. they I'm a unique being because for some reason, and thank the Lord because it's one of my favorite parts of myself, the notion of completely blowing up my entire life within the next six months didn't even faze me. like That seemed like...
00:37:01
Speaker
I didn't even think about it. Like I didn't have any choice but to be in service of this higher vibration that was now flowing through. And, you know, this is why the ego is so pernicious because you form these very clear opinions of what does and doesn't work for you and who you are and are not.
00:37:18
Speaker
You know, I once had a wildly transformational season of my life crack open because I chose to walk my dog the opposite direction around the block. you know We get locked into these repeating cycles of like, oh, I like my coffee with this much cream. I turn left when I leave the door. And this is what makes us automatons.
00:37:38
Speaker
And the the universe craves diversity. The universe craves change. And something as simple as when you send that vibration out of yourself, when I'm going to turn right today, it sends a signal that goes, he's open, send something new.
00:37:53
Speaker
And that's where all the magic comes from. Fascinating. I love that. And it's like about this idea of just openness and, you know, like surrendering to what might come and not resisting. And I think you touched on something like the gay label, you know, does limit a lot of people. I've been seeing that more and more lately as fluidity becomes more known even among the gay community.
00:38:19
Speaker
I think in in the past, there was probably a lot of that kind of thinking of like, well, I'm gay, so I'm not gonna go down that road. That would that doesn't make any sense. and And yet what what possibilities are you cutting off?
00:38:32
Speaker
So before we get into the book, like you know i want you to finish the the story. like you You said that you got the insight to marry this woman, have children and save both of your lives.
00:38:44
Speaker
Did that happen? And also what happened after?
Transformative Marriage
00:38:49
Speaker
and apt to get to now. It absolutely happened um without getting too personal. um You know, it saved my life because if I were still back in Chelsea living the life that I was living then, i I don't think I would have made it. Like that just was never going to give me all that this new life has now offered me.
00:39:10
Speaker
um With regard to my partner, um there's no doubt that there was a there was a struggle and a pain there that i I knew instantly upon meeting her that I was going to have an ability to help transform. And um she's a magical, beautiful divine being that is only more powerful and radiant every single day that I see her triggers the shit out of me.
00:39:32
Speaker
I mean, this is the hardest relationship of my life. I mean, we take each other to the depths of our deepest trigger um on a constant basis. Our ability to now recognize that comeback ah come come to awareness, come to peace and come to resolution, usually within a half hour now represents some of the great work of my life and hers. And that is the kind of people we have become having walked this very fascinating journey.
00:40:03
Speaker
Oscar worthy path ah that that we have, that we have walked together. Cool. Yeah. I sometimes feel like in my relationships, like you, so you revisit the same things over and over, like somebody triggering you in a certain way, doesn't not necessarily go away, but it's that spiral metaphor.
00:40:22
Speaker
yeah you're, you know, as things come around, it's not just the same thing repeating itself. You're, you're a little. Yes. At a higher frequency each time if you're paying attention and if you're doing this work and you're you can manage it a little little more with more clarity and more intention and you can get to the point where you can resolve something in a half hour that might have once set you set you into a week of to turmoil. Yeah.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. And to continue to and just to give you the facts of what happened, but also to link it to this larger conversation we're having. um I think one of the great blights on our culture right now, and this is shifting quickly, but, you know, the holding on to this 50s mentality that we are and and this is a I want to be careful how I language this because.
00:41:11
Speaker
We all have a unique karma and dharma. we are Based on all the things that we carry with us coming into these lives, there's a certain amount of experience that we are kind of assigned to have. And though we have free will and can kind of put ourselves in situation that might cause this lessons come through this lens or that lens or to have this shape or this color...
00:41:33
Speaker
that's all the magic of what unfolds where that dharma and karma meets our free will. But there are certain experiences that we cannot run from. Like we came here to have them, they are going to happen.
00:41:43
Speaker
And the relationships that come into our lives, they're the great catalysts of all of this. And this notion That while some have a Dharma karma that would have them come, meet one person, fall in love, be monogamous, end together for the next 75 years, that's great. That is exactly what is meant for some people, and they've created a beautiful example for some to follow that are meant to also then come and do it.
00:42:10
Speaker
It is also totally right, good and proper that a woman is meant to come into your life, put two children on the planet, shake your shit up, and then all of you move on, having reframed that relationship into something totally new that doesn't look like marriage.
00:42:25
Speaker
And so it is not a failure in any way, shape or form that our marriage ended in a cataclysmic divorce that nearly killed me. um And the fact that having gone through that with her, I now consider her one of my dearest friends. The fact that we are the Bruce and Demi in this co-parenting dynamic that we now live, that's been the great gift. And so to hold that as some kind of failure to me is just a preposterous concept.
00:42:50
Speaker
Beautiful. That was actually exactly what I was thinking right before you said it is like so many people in these situations and people I've worked with, like, you know, they're scared of things changing, or they might look at that as a mistake or a failure.
00:43:04
Speaker
And it's, you know, most of the time what's happened, I mean, all of the time what's happening is meant to happen. And These big changes are not necessarily bad. Like we judge, we we often judge these things and try to follow the path of what others are doing or what we should do.
00:43:21
Speaker
And that may limit what you're meant to be here for and some some really big, powerful thing that like, or experience in your life that has to happen. And and it all it's all happening for a reason if you kind of listen to that voice inside you and trust trust
Growth from Life Events
00:43:39
Speaker
it.
00:43:39
Speaker
It can sound a little cliche, but the bottom line is, and I truly believe this, nothing is ever happening to us. It is only ever happening for us. The greatest, most painful tragedies of our lives.
00:43:52
Speaker
There is a form and a function to them. They are happening for a reason. and As I have come to find for myself, the only real choice is if you're going to stay in that place of resistance of this should not happen, why did it happen?
00:44:06
Speaker
You can stay stuck in that place as long as you want to. The minute you get to the place of this may hurt, this may take me years to grieve, I may not actually ever get over anymore. And whatever it does to me, if I choose to embrace that, I can get to the positive aspect of this sooner.
00:44:24
Speaker
If I just say this is what so this is what has been a sign for me, I will rise from these ashes and I will discover that purpose. And, you know, you don't have to look far to find many examples, infinite examples in our world of how that has played out for countless people.
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly. like Do you want to share briefly anything about your current relationship up to you? I do. Absolutely. And and yeah I want to complete that whole arc. Although there's a lot of story to get from the marriage to this relationship because um I did. And and this this should be its own episode. You'll be back, I think. Yeah, part of the challenge I faced, and I think a lot of us face is, and I have to really be very delicate with how I language this.
00:45:13
Speaker
um There are aspects of gay culture that are just some of the most beautiful things happening on this planet. to the there there There's no elements of of of the queer pop culture that I just love. And there's also a lot of darkness and like really not great things that we're holding on to. And some of the experiences I had had living in Chelsea um really soured me. And so I left my marriage in a place of, well, I'm sure not going to be gay again and kind of holding on to this notion of, I don't want to go back to that place.
00:45:46
Speaker
um And so I was very resistant to being with men again. But to be honest, being with a woman never really resonated again, although I did have one more female relationship, which is a whole different story.
00:45:57
Speaker
um But after working through ah years years of a lot of resistance um and also an ah acceleration of my spiritual path that found me living in celibacy for several years, um but it was clear that i was being pulled back to
Love and Acceptance
00:46:13
Speaker
men. And yeah, I found a guy We met online. I wasn't even looking. I had a profile out there looking for men, women, trans, everything under the rainbow.
00:46:25
Speaker
And um in a season when I wasn't really even looking, I just was glancing through some suggested matches and I saw this guy. And I honestly knew instantly. And this is the thing, when you get your place into being in awareness of these vibrations, when something resonates, you know it.
00:46:40
Speaker
um And it's actually my partner is how I met Rob. They're former colleagues. And he's just the most magical being. And our our love is deep. And you know we've both done the work to be at this place of purification where you know we've got the goods. we know how we're We're learning how to navigate it and hold it while we are engaged.
00:47:01
Speaker
um We're deeply involved in each other's life's work. He is an active father figure to my children living in our home. And it's it's it has certainly been one of the great gifts of this life.
00:47:12
Speaker
Indeed, beautiful. And congrats on your engagement. I'm so happy for you both. And yeah, I mean, it's so funny how we met through your partner because we we had met through the industry and we kind of reconnected about a year ago Because I had this script and I was like hoping he would help me do something with it. And then we met for coffee and we sat down and he said, oh yeah, I left my industry job and I'm yeah kind of putting that behind me. And and I was like, oh no, like i was hoping he would help me. and And once that fell away and that expectation and that goal, like...
00:47:53
Speaker
Then all of this magical stuff happened in, you know, out of that lunch, out of that coffee, he told me about you and he told me about the work you were doing.
00:48:04
Speaker
And that has become the you know, I don't want to say the most, and it's everything. It's been everything. And it's shifted everything about my life and my work. And so,
00:48:15
Speaker
you know, it it almost is the the perfect encapsulation of like, I had to let go of these expectations and they had to actually be ripped from me in order to get the real insights and healing and path forward.
00:48:29
Speaker
Disappointment is one of the greatest indicators that you have just popped something incredible open.
00:48:43
Speaker
Let's get into your book, which I just read a little bit of and was fascinated by. And I've heard a little bit about what it's about, but only kind of recently. You've only just started talking about it a little bit.
Secret and Book Project
00:49:00
Speaker
ah So is this the first time you're going to sort of share it more publicly? i think so. So this tell us about that. this This definitely represents a coming out for me.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. and And it's related to the sexuality journey, but also, but, you know, different. So. Tell us. It is. It is. And it's so interesting how um I imagine if if someone is watching this and is just meeting me for the first time through this podcast, like, boy, that guy's confident.
00:49:29
Speaker
And it's so interesting where that confidence, yeah you know, you're looking at the most powerful spot in your life when you're looking at that spot where all of that confidence goes away.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah. um And I've had a thing, an aspect of myself that has been in the bedrock of my life experience for as long as I can remember, probably before I was even three years old.
00:49:55
Speaker
it has ah The thing around which I have carried the most shame, um the thing that has caused the most disturbance and upheaval in my life. And the work that we're describing made clear to me a few years ago, and we not even that long, that like it's that thing in your life that is why you're here.
00:50:15
Speaker
And this notion that we so often take those things and pack it away as this secret because, oh my God, if people find out they're going to drive me out of the village or burn me at the stakes, this is what actually has us the most locked up as a society, in my humble opinion.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yes, the things that scare you the most and that bring you all that shame, i have thought for a while, like that is your superpower. That is not only something to eventually not keep in the shadows, but it's actually like a powerful thing that you must use and share. And yeah.
00:50:48
Speaker
Okay, go on. So how do I get into this? um ah As long as I can remember, i have had what began as a childhood in my childhood as a fascination and then evolved into a fetish in puberty.
00:51:07
Speaker
a complete inability to look away from disabled men. um When I was a kid and I would see someone rolling by in a wheelchair crutching by with an injury or an amputation, it it took me over in ways that I cannot describe. Even as a three-year-old child, just like following them down the the hallway at the mall, like, why am I following this person?
00:51:30
Speaker
um As a child, I would play. i would pretend play to be injured or handicapped. um And at the dawn of the internet, and I write about this in my book, the day I first got access to a search engine, I discovered I was not the only one, that that's it's actually a known thing. And i i've I've never been able to quantify how many of us there are, but just on...
00:51:54
Speaker
And in light of the many experiences I've had living very deeply with this, i think there's, you know, if not tens of thousands, like somewhere in the ballpark of 10,000 people like us floating around the world. But I'm really guessing that and who knows.
00:52:10
Speaker
um I have built a ah great relationship with the and NYU community. I'm sorry, NYU or Columbia, I can't remember, a psychiatrist, Dr. Michael First, that is kind of like the thought leader on what he has termed body integrity identity disorder.
00:52:26
Speaker
um He's interviewed in my book. And even he, having been part of seminal research on this and having helped hundreds of people through this, he doesn't even have a firm grasp on how many of us there are.
00:52:38
Speaker
um But it goes, it went deeper for me. I mean, this, my my connection and my yearning and my longing toward the disabled was so deep, um as was my own inadequacy and my own not feeling as though I had something about myself to show the world, to get me attention, to...
00:52:57
Speaker
I felt so special, but no but I didn't feel anyone else saw me as special. And it was almost the sense that if I had a disability, then that would give me that specialness I would be worth looking at, I would be worth paying attention to.
00:53:10
Speaker
And it turned into a full-blown body identity disorder where in my darkest years of my 20s, when I didn't have enough meaning and substance in my life, I would have paid someone to sever my spine or cut my leg off. I was that ah deeply desirous of becoming disabled and to have that experience myself.
00:53:29
Speaker
Fascinating. ah Like that, the the part of it, I mean, I was reading your book and it's like the way that it manifests when you were a kid is really fascinating.
00:53:41
Speaker
And it's one of those things you're talking about of just like, you didn't have to like guess it or you you just knew it was there. You could sense it when you saw someone, you describe this moment of like putting on a friend's crutches and the power and the energy and the feeling that it gave you.
00:53:58
Speaker
It's interesting how you describe it about like you wanted to be special or like worthy of attention because of that. Like, Is that how it felt as a kid? Or like how do you did that shift? How do you see what it is
Understanding Disability
00:54:13
Speaker
now? And where do you get your so your sense of worth and specialness now? like Did it shift at all?
00:54:22
Speaker
um That's a really complex question. i think as a child, this all existed beyond thought. You know, kids aren't thinking, why am I going to go build a fort? They just want to go build a fort so they do it. And so I was just always drawn to these people. And when I got the chance to play and there were ace bandages in the room, I wasn't going to go play with the trucks. I was going to go play with those. it it was just... And this is the beauty of childhood, because who we truly are has permission to freely express itself.
00:54:53
Speaker
It's not until we get older that we start going, oh, what are other people going to think about this? And what does this mean about me? And we begin to get into our head about these things. Actually, yeah, that one of the sort of really resonant moments in the chapter, the sample chapter I read is like when ah you wanted to get braces because you saw these other kids having braces, but but your teeth were good enough. You didn't need them.
00:55:18
Speaker
And but you it seemed like your parents could kind of tell that you wanted them. And at one point, your mom just says, fine, like, let's just go get them if you want them. And and instead of saying, okay you, the the shame took over and you said, why would I want that?
00:55:36
Speaker
You denied it and pushed it away at the moment, like it was right there. ah Tell us about that moment. It's all shame. it's it's it's it's wreck It's knowing that you are carrying... Secrets and shame are the lowest vibrational forms in the universe.
00:55:53
Speaker
So in this world of sound, light, vibration that we've established, that's the lowest one. So if you've got this beautiful symphony going on and there's shame involved, you're like all of your first chairs are out of tune.
00:56:07
Speaker
Like it is not good. It's going to pull your whole life down with it. And so the shame was so deeply embedded. I knew something was that I knew that I didn't need these things.
00:56:18
Speaker
I knew that I wasn't actually in need of them. And so my son, I had formed, I had enough awareness to know. and I think the shame came, this was not a rational thought process, but I think somewhere deeply inside in my psyche, um,
00:56:36
Speaker
It was the disingenuousness. It was the double life. It was the, you are not this way, but you are pretending to be, that creates the dissonance of untruth.
00:56:49
Speaker
And then that goes into the, well, why am I like this? What is wrong with me? And oh my God, if someone were to find out, then they would think these things about me. Oh my God, my ego is no longer protected.
00:57:02
Speaker
This illusion of how I want to appear in the world, that their veil has now been shredded. This takes us to that place of denial, which is you're actually now offering me the thing that I want the most, but I can't say yes to it because to it to say yes to it would be to admit that I am this thing.
00:57:21
Speaker
Right. the It's the actual admission, acceptance of it that kind of feels like it makes it real. But actually, the the resistance is causing all this stuff for people, whether it's this or bisexuality or whatever it is.
00:57:35
Speaker
The resistance is amplifying that lower frequency energy and the surrender to it is how you... find that path forward. So what then happened in puberty, if you want to share, and like how did this become integrated with your sexuality? And like how did it play out in that way? Sure, sure.
00:57:56
Speaker
Well, in in the eighth grade, there was a careers project. And before I flung my hand in the air, I already had a ah plot emerge. I was going to claim orthopedic surgeon as my career, though I had no interest in becoming one because it would give me license to like investigate this and like go touch the wheelchairs and do all the things. And um it was the dawn of the internet.
00:58:20
Speaker
And I my sister let me use her computer to come do my first round of internet research and I had the room to myself and I began searching first very benign things to help with the report and then like men in wheelchairs and it didn't take long to discover um the the the subculture of devotees, wannabes and pretenders. Devotees are people that are have this attraction to the disabled.
00:58:48
Speaker
Wannabes are those that wish to become disabled themselves and have that craving. And pretenders are those that that actually go out into the world um masquerading as the disabled. And I checked all three boxes and have actively pursued all three throughout my teens and adult life. um I mean, honestly, up until two years ago.
00:59:09
Speaker
The irony was when i met my partner, I was actually in a season of resurgence of this in my life. Because i it has come to a crescendo and it has fallen. I wouldn't ever say fallen away, but I've tucked it away successfully.
00:59:23
Speaker
Sometimes for years at a time during my marriage, um if if there were provocations where i would we'd see a disabled person out in the world and it would put me into a panic response.
00:59:35
Speaker
But like I was happily married. I didn't even think I was gay anymore. I had no interest in acting upon this. And then it would come back around. It's that spiral you spoke about. So I happened to be in a season right when I met my partner where this was like picking up again. I had actually um there was a guy online that I had been coveting for years and wanting to meet him and have an experience with.
00:59:59
Speaker
And he responded to my messages after years of going unanswered, like within a week of my partner meeting me. And, you know, the the universe sets you up in these moments. I mean, that you you can't make this shit up because it is the magic of life unfolding.
01:00:16
Speaker
And um I had to make that choice. and And I actually did go into having an experience with him, but it was not the experience I was expecting. it was a decidedly um non-sexual experience for me. And and this is Not to give away too much, but but I think it's worth sharing.
01:00:36
Speaker
These kinks, these bizarre things that become obsessive for us, um as I think I quote in my book synopsis, we often think these things are getting our attention so that we can get off.
01:00:52
Speaker
And that is the misinformation served up by a hypersexualized society. That is the misinformation served up by brains that have been conditioned by a hypersexualized society.
01:01:04
Speaker
These sensations that take us over, that make us think we are being called to get off, they're very real, very powerful sensations that that are the product of the sexual creative energy that makes up our life force, that makes up our greatest creative ability in this world.
01:01:21
Speaker
The work we do together has given me the the discernment to refine my my feeling into those feelings and go, oh, I thought for so many years those sensations were calling me to get off.
01:01:35
Speaker
It's actually calling me to something totally different. And I have a deeply intuitive, empathetic ability as a healer to deeply support disabled bodies. And I have helped some dis i have helped probably 20, 30 disabled men have some very powerful experiences of healing, giving healing touch.
01:01:56
Speaker
various things in this modality that I work with with them. And that that's what was wanting to come through. But when I spent my teens and my 20s and my 30s compulsively acting upon these sexual compulsions and going so far as to want to become disabled...
01:02:16
Speaker
I was too frayed and, and, and, and um what's the right word? I was too overwrought by those overwhelming feelings to be able to get into that deeper, more subtle discernment.
01:02:28
Speaker
And it really was, um i credit my marriage because my marriage sort of pulled me out of the cycle of hypersexuality that living in Chelsea made available to me.
01:02:41
Speaker
And though I was in a beautiful monogamous sexual relationship, um honing that channel channel into monogamy based on love calmed the sexual frequencies in my life where I could begin to feel into that.
01:02:55
Speaker
And that's when it turned into so non-sexual healing service. And then again, i went through three years of practical celibacy after my divorce, where I basically lived like a monk and was just doing deep meditation practice.
01:03:09
Speaker
And that's when I got this next sort of big push toward as fun as the sexual part is and as exhilarating as that is, um like so many of these things, it was really fun until you come.
01:03:23
Speaker
And then it's like, oh, shit, what have I done again? And what has that done to my energy? And oh, by the way, the reason I'm kind of stagnating in life is all of this creative force that is available to me to go change the world.
01:03:35
Speaker
I'm just, you know, shooting out every time I have a compulsion to go act on this urge. Interesting, fascinating and ah instructive to me. It makes me wonder of where my fetish is going. Because like I have one that I haven't yet talked about on this podcast, but like I will. I'm writing about it. It'll it'll happen when it happens. And like I'm coming to new understandings of it.
01:04:01
Speaker
But but I don't know that I've quite got to that point yet of like. what what's the other purpose of this thing in my life other than fun? I mean, it's fun, it's joyful other than like, but yeah, it's getting off also like it's arousing.
01:04:17
Speaker
yeah And I wonder, that's so interesting that that it led you to this other healing stuff. Yeah.
01:04:32
Speaker
I remember when you you told me about this for you, like I had heard of it because that we did an SVU episode about it. I think it's called Strange Beauty and very, very, very fucked up version of this playing out.
01:04:47
Speaker
was like I'd expect nothing less. i possess Yeah. ah dentist. I think a dentist was amputating people who didn't want to be amputated or something. OK. So that was my only experience with it.
01:04:59
Speaker
And so this is like a very different story.
Coping with Triggers
01:05:03
Speaker
and but it's But it is something like, i think there's so many people who think that these things are you you know totally unique to them. But but there's ah you know it was interesting that you connected with other people and found people studying this and that kind of helped you process it and normalize it.
01:05:20
Speaker
I'm curious, like in like right now where you are, I mean, it it helped you connect to the work you're doing now. Does it show up still for you? I mean, I know you're writing about it also. And and like, I'm curious is your goal with the book, but like, how, how does it show up for you currently? And what do you, what do you do when it shows up?
01:05:43
Speaker
um It's an evolving thing. I think this will be showing up for me until the day I die. um There are... And i'll just I'll give you a deeply personal example of how this plays out for me.
01:05:54
Speaker
And you know it's i'm you know I'm preparing for a talk that I'm giving tonight on worry, fear, and doubt. And one of the principles that I hope to bring through in that conversation is the first thought that arises in our mind on a topic, it's not ours.
01:06:09
Speaker
You can't blame yourself for it. Like, there are so Our brains are so complex. are We're so conditioned by past experiences. It's like when we have intrusive thoughts in particular, the first rising of that thought, just consider it static in the brain. like it's It's nothing we did wrong.
01:06:26
Speaker
It's choosing to hold on to the thought and keep thinking about it and then do something with it. That's where we have to learn greater discernment. And so living with the brain that went through the childhood,
01:06:39
Speaker
that led me to have this sense of inadequacy and unworth and needing to feel special, living with the brain in my head that has logged thousands of hours sitting at my computer obsessing over images and videos of disabled men, living through the brain that has had probably 30, 40...
01:06:57
Speaker
sexual encounters with disabled men in the flesh, living in the brain that has gotten in a wheelchair and rolled through towns and cities pretending to be disabled. As much as I've healed, as much as I would know better than to act upon these things and reignite that forest fire in my life, those intrusive thoughts still come up from time to time.
01:07:19
Speaker
I'm very pleased it's more and more rare. And I have to say, spending a year writing a memoir on it's really helpful because you you sort of expose yourself to it in that open way. the thoughts arise in less pernicious, less surprising ways. That's on the table. It's right here. I'm working with it.
01:07:35
Speaker
But there are these moments where my reaction to a common stimulus is very different because of the brain I'm living with. And so, you know, i think this is a very common thing to go through.
01:07:48
Speaker
But there will be a moment where I'll think, what would happen if my family got – if I was the only one in my family not to get killed in a car accident? Like, what if I looked up and I was the only one left?
01:07:59
Speaker
Yeah. And i know that what I would actually do would not be this. But my brain will go, maybe you'd buy a wheelchair, move to Tucson and pretend and just live out the rest of your days as a paraplegic.
01:08:11
Speaker
Like that would be comforting. That would be soothing. I would have turned this tragedy into getting to achieve something that I've always wanted ah in some way, whether or not how much fucked up that is. So it appears in those ways.
01:08:24
Speaker
um One of the harder aspects that I, if I could flip a switch and just turn this off, I would, but we all have our crosses to bear because I spent so long on the hunt.
01:08:36
Speaker
for disabled people out there. You know, you're usually it's not hard to find somebody in a harness. It's not hard to find somebody into S&M. It is not easy when you're in the phase of this where you need to act upon it. And just like we talked about the label serving until they don't, I could not have gotten to this place if I had not had my fun.
01:08:56
Speaker
with this fetish. And when you're having these yearnings, when you feel that you're not going to get that validation of getting off the way you want to, unless you find someone to do this with not being able to find it it has led to the most torturous moments of my life.
01:09:13
Speaker
And so because I spent so long, i call it in my book, my disabled dude radar system. Um, if I hear a click of a crutch in a shopping mall 200 yards away, I know.
01:09:28
Speaker
Like, I have this hyper attentive awareness. And, you know, we were at Disney World with my kids. It almost makes me feel emotional. We're sitting at the Beast's Castle having dinner at Be Our Guest at Disney World a few weeks ago on spring break and having the time of our lives. Like, the last thing I want to be thinking about is this, and a family with both a mom and a dad in a wheelchair come rolling in with their family.
01:09:52
Speaker
Now, the thing is, that's a spectacle for everybody. Like part of what has taught me is like whether it goes to the level of a fetish like mine has, a lot of people are fascinated by disability and want to watch and just curious, like how does that, oh my God, they're the mother and the father. How how did they get pregnant? what There is such a natural curiosity and not to take us down a very deep path because the bottom line of my book is there is a spirituality behind disability.
01:10:20
Speaker
There is a function that handicap plays metaphysically that is vital and potent and important. And so when we feel that draw toward them, we think we're looking at a wheelchair. We're looking at something very different that that our souls want to honor and revere and be a part of because they're doing something very important for our for our entire cosmos by coming and living these lives.
01:10:43
Speaker
And so, but to get back to your question, now that I've totally intrigued you by that, um yeah it's really good. um You know, it's annoying. I don't want to have to be actively working to calm my nervous system sitting at dinner with my family at Disney World because this triggering stimulus has rolled into the room.
01:11:04
Speaker
And, you know, We all have highs and lows. We all have good days and bad days. There's days where it happens and it's like a blip on the radar, like, oh, just what let them roll by. There's days where it happens where it puts me back into a place of like, well, now what am i going to do?
01:11:18
Speaker
And it's like, I'm not going to do anything. And there's even challenge in that. And it's, you know. One of the great gifts of this life is to have a partner with whom I'm able to be fully open about this. I've really not had to hold anything back in sharing with him, and he has only ever received me in acceptance and love. and um it It has unlocked my ability to write this book, which I know is a huge part of my life's purpose, so I'm in such deep gratitude. So,
01:11:45
Speaker
while I know there is no judgment there, um the wheelchair rolls in and my trigger is now amplified by the fact that he knows I'm triggered.
01:11:55
Speaker
So I feel exposed in that way. And, you know, as as confident as we are in our relationship, I know there is a part of him that wonders, what if this were to flare up for him again? What if 15 years from now he decides he won't be okay unless he has some sexual experience or becomes disabled. and And the the the uncomfortable truth, the surrender of trusting these lives is, I don't know that that won't happen.
01:12:24
Speaker
I trust that it won't. I've done the work to line these things up in such a way. i am committed to doing the work in life that keeps my frequency high, everything from health and nutrition to my spiritual practice. like i have I have learned and truly understand, not from a place of rejecting these urges, but from transmuting them,
01:12:46
Speaker
that It would not be in my best interest or anyone's else's to act upon these urges. So just like a drug addict drug addict ultimately doesn't stop wanting to use drugs, they actively make a choice. I am not going to do that anymore as an act of willpower.
01:13:05
Speaker
um I have to live in that way. And so I am in full trust that living in that way, I'm always going to keep myself back from that edge. um But I think I'll be navigating that edge for the rest of my life.
01:13:19
Speaker
Interesting. you kind of I have a question and you kind of answered it there. It's about like finding that balance and that edge. But I guess as you everything you said makes sense. And also,
01:13:29
Speaker
in my head, I'm trying to square it with this idea of like resistance versus surrender. And like, so it sounds like to me, you kind of had to go through the period where you were like actively exploring this and meeting up with disabled men.
01:13:43
Speaker
And like that, that had to happen to get to this awareness and understanding you have now. But, but what I don't quite get, and I want to hear your, your words on this is like, how is it,
01:13:58
Speaker
not that you're resisting it now to some degree? Or are you like are you surrendering to it? How do you see that? if i If if at the age of three, I develop a compulsion for burning myself or cutting myself, which is a common thing. i mean, the cutting more common than burning.
01:14:17
Speaker
if If for whatever, and let's face the facts. Needing to be sexual with a disabled person and wanting to sever your spine, it ain't normal. it It ain't like an obvious, like like, it's why you could call it insane.
01:14:31
Speaker
so let's make a less um Let's make a comparable parallel to to ease the conversation. If I wake up in a life where I'm convinced it is a good idea to take my hand and put it on a burning stovetop, is that a fair equivalent?
01:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, sure. okay so I spent 30 years of my life... Acting on him to do that and allowing my myself from a place of non suppression to burn my hand on a stovetop.
01:14:58
Speaker
And it's scarred as fuck. Like, and I have finally gone. oh I had some fun doing this, but the fun always led to pain.
01:15:09
Speaker
The fun always led to destruction. Once I actually burned my kitchen down, maybe as an adult with with with willpower, because this all comes down to willpower. you know if if If one of the vital things we're here to do in life is to develop trust, the next thing is to develop willpower.
01:15:25
Speaker
This notion that anything that that that we feel we need to do, we have to do, that's where we're truly powerless and helpless as people. We are here to cultivate the ability to say, this is not good for me, so I will choose not to.
01:15:40
Speaker
So I don't see it as an act of suppression or repression to have made a conscious choice. I'm not going to lay my hand on this stove anymore. And so now when whatever the alignment of the stars, the chemistry of my brain, something I saw on TV...
01:15:57
Speaker
reactivates just that habitual conditioned part of my brain that might go, hey, go put your hand on that stove again. i have cultivated the willpower to say, we've had this conversation, motherfucker.
01:16:09
Speaker
I'm not putting my hand on the stove. Does that help? Yeah, i I get that. I hear it. And I think it's maybe it's in some sense unique to each whatever that this thing is for different people, like it to not necessarily judge it as good or bad, but Well, you have, it depends on the thing, right? And there can be destructive aspects of these things that are not putting you on the path you want to be on where, but like to not judge the whole thing as a bad thing and to follow totally find the part of it that resonates and moves you to where you want to be.
01:16:45
Speaker
I'm one unique guy living one unique life with one very specific karmic dharmic imprint that I'm here to live. At this moment in my life, it is not within my dharmic path to be in relationship with or in sexual relationship with a disabled person.
01:17:00
Speaker
It is also not in my karmic dharmic path to disable myself. So these are things I'm choosing to step away from. There are people... that have this same, and I'm going to say it for dramatic effect, I don't think it is this, that have this affliction, that have walked this same path I have, or rolled as the case might have been, that have found themselves in relationships with disabled men, that have taken their unique attraction for the disabled, and it has carried them to a disabled person that needs someone to love them,
01:17:33
Speaker
that needs someone to think it's sexy when they have to do these things that are actually kind of miserable. um One of my great revelations in this whole journey was I was living life thinking that being paralyzed just meant you couldn't move your legs.
01:17:47
Speaker
And as long as you were strong enough to drag them along with you, no dice. Like, what's the problem? These are hard lives. There's a lot of physical pain. There's a lot of body dysfunction that that's deeper below the surface that folks don't realize but the amount of care That goes into caring for and living in a paralyzed body in particular is no small thing.
01:18:09
Speaker
That the universe has assigned a couple thousand people like me to think that's the coolest thing ever. it's It's the same magic that puts people that aren't afraid of dying here to do death work. It's a beautiful thing.
01:18:21
Speaker
So please, and I think we've made it clear, but just to put a button on it, there is nothing wrong with following these urges to find proximity to the disabled if that is going to create good for you and good for them.
01:18:35
Speaker
I have to candidly admit, I spent 10 years acting like a predator because of this. I have engaged in behaviors that I am not proud of because of this. And so you have to just, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and call this whole category of fetishistic attraction bad. It can lead to beautiful things. It's all what you choose to do with it.
01:18:55
Speaker
If I were to act upon it right now, it would blow up my life. I'm in a monogamous relationship. I have made this commitment. I have seen... and have proven data from decades of experience, when I step onto this path, it is a path that always takes me down.
01:19:13
Speaker
So I'm going to make the choice not make that step anymore. Yeah, okay. That makes a lot of sense. um Yeah, it's it is finding how it actually is playing out and like making these conscious choices as opposed to letting it take you to places you you don't want to be.
01:19:31
Speaker
um But also following it when when necessary and you know sometimes it is.
01:19:39
Speaker
Thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode with Clark Nesselroth. There's more with Clark next week. We continued talking about his book a little more. We also talked about our respective coaching practices, how they overlap, how they're a little different. And we also talked a little about politics and the state of the world and how to get through it and how to look at it from...
01:20:01
Speaker
a more spiritual point of view. So stay tuned next week and some more fun episodes coming up after that on this season of Two Bye Guys. Check the link in my bio anytime now through June for the discussion series I'm going to be hosting. It's free to join, meet other bi people, talk about a topic, and that's all. Thanks for listening to this episode of Two Bye Guys.
01:20:20
Speaker
Bye.
01:20:24
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit patreon.com slash robertbrookscohen. You'll get full video episodes, early access, and bonus content. Visit robertbrookscohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.
01:20:52
Speaker
you