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HerHax Cybersecurity Researchers Dispel Myths About AirTag Stalking
45 Plays3 years ago
The cybersecurity researchers from the up and coming HerHax Podcast clarify the mechanisms behind AirTag security and dispel some myths about stalking prevention techniques that were spread on the FDS Subreddit (some of which can leave women *more* vulnerable!) Further discussion on the tech industry's blind spots when it comes to women's safety.
Christine & Rebecca's AMA thread:
https://www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com/forum/podcasts/airtags-ama-fds-x-herhaxpodcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Announcements
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Queens, it's Ro.
00:00:01
Speaker
Just dropping a note before this episode starts that we're hosting an Ask Me Anything on the website, www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com, with our guests today, the Future Her Hacks podcast hosts and current cybersecurity researchers, Christine and Rebecca.
00:00:16
Speaker
So navigate to our website to check that out on thefemaledatingstrategy.com.
00:00:20
Speaker
I'll leave a link in the show notes to the actual thread.
00:00:22
Speaker
And as always, if you'd like to hear bonus content, go to our Patreon, patreon.com forward slash thefemaledatingstrategy, where you can find over 60 plus episodes of bonus content, extra long interviews with our major guests, media roasts, exclusive strategy content, commentary on current events, including our Discord, where we host our twice monthly podcast.
00:00:41
Speaker
live chat called war room, where we discuss in a group, how to fix your life.
00:00:45
Speaker
You can also submit a rose to scrote, a dating question, or if you're a man who's a fan of the podcast, you can submit your own dating question or FDS challenge via our scrotes strike back tier on the Patreon.
00:00:56
Speaker
So check that out.
00:00:56
Speaker
Once again, patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy and enjoy this episode.
Guest Introduction: Christine and Rebecca
00:01:08
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:01:09
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:01:13
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:01:14
Speaker
I'm Ella.
00:01:15
Speaker
And Savannah's still out today.
00:01:16
Speaker
But we do have some very special guests, Christine and Rebecca from the Her Hacks Podcast.
00:01:22
Speaker
Christine and Rebecca, how are you doing?
00:01:23
Speaker
Pretty good.
00:01:24
Speaker
Really good.
00:01:25
Speaker
So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do, because, you know, when you first reached out to this and pitched the episode idea, we were really excited about it because it sounded extremely fascinating.
The Her Hacks Podcast Overview
00:01:34
Speaker
And it is right up our alley when it comes to general security for women, when it comes to interacting online.
00:01:40
Speaker
And you had a lot of commentary on some of the specific posts and questions that people had on the subreddit.
00:01:45
Speaker
So we thought this would be a great opportunity to get those answered.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:48
Speaker
Christine, if you don't mind, I can kind of go into a little more detail.
00:01:50
Speaker
So HerHacks podcast in general is an up and coming podcast created by women in cybersecurity, like me and Christine.
00:01:56
Speaker
Christine is a mobile security researcher.
00:01:58
Speaker
I'm like a cloud security researcher.
00:02:00
Speaker
And it's the whole concept of it is that it's created by women, but it's for everyone.
00:02:04
Speaker
And it's founded by us.
00:02:05
Speaker
And we're really passionate about the field of cybersecurity.
00:02:08
Speaker
I mean, we want to spread the word about everything cyber.
00:02:11
Speaker
So our podcast is going to cover a range of topics from the history of women in cryptography, modern day workplace tips,
00:02:17
Speaker
expert interviews with badass women in the field, and also how to get started in cyber.
00:02:21
Speaker
We also want to do some like technical conversations.
00:02:23
Speaker
So like how to stay safe online or pwn your way to the top of a CTF scoreboard.
00:02:27
Speaker
So like wherever your skillset or interest is, HerHacks podcast is kind of there to help.
00:02:31
Speaker
I need to define one term already.
00:02:32
Speaker
What's CTF scoreboard?
00:02:35
Speaker
I know pwn.
00:02:36
Speaker
I know pwn.
00:02:36
Speaker
I'm plugged into the internet that much to understand
What are CTF Competitions?
00:02:39
Speaker
pwning.
00:02:39
Speaker
But what is a CTF scoreboard?
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, you got the phone.
00:02:43
Speaker
So CTFs are like, it's capture the flag, but it's like a virtual capture the flag.
00:02:46
Speaker
And there are like two different ways they're typically run.
00:02:48
Speaker
So there's like a Jeopardy style CTF where people create like different challenges and puzzles.
00:02:53
Speaker
So like reverse engineering challenges or like
00:02:56
Speaker
packet capture analysis challenges or like web security challenges where you kind of have to like hack a site to get like flags.
00:03:03
Speaker
And then there's another style where it's like attack and defense, where you have like a bunch of people protecting and defending like servers, like doing basic like hardening and stuff.
00:03:11
Speaker
And then you'll have like a red team or which are like the bad cyber people or like the attackers that will try to take down your services or whatever.
00:03:18
Speaker
I've actually played, there's like a really big, I guess like hacker convention called DEFCON and it's in Las Vegas every year.
00:03:24
Speaker
And I was on a capture the flag team that played at DEFCON a few years ago.
00:03:30
Speaker
And that attack defend one is actually pretty interesting because you're doing red team and blue team attack defense for yourselves.
00:03:36
Speaker
So it's you all trying to hack into each other's services and also patch your own services.
00:03:41
Speaker
And it goes for like the whole weekend.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:43
Speaker
Wow.
00:03:44
Speaker
So is it more of like a game that hackers play or people who are in cybersecurity play?
00:03:49
Speaker
Is it like a... It's like a war game.
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, like a war game.
00:03:51
Speaker
It's like a hacking competition, kind of.
00:03:53
Speaker
So the Jeopardy style ones, you're trying to hack those specific services.
00:03:57
Speaker
So like they'll give you a web page and they'll say, hey, like find the bug in this web page.
00:04:02
Speaker
And they might give you a hint on something that is like a
00:04:05
Speaker
recent bug that came out.
00:04:06
Speaker
Sometimes it is like Rebecca explained, there's different categories to the challenges.
00:04:11
Speaker
So for all of the Jeopardy style ones, it's almost just like you're doing all these like coding problems and you're trying to figure out and like solve each problem and get the quote flag.
00:04:19
Speaker
But for an attack defend, normally like you have to host the services yourself and then people have to solve those same problems, but it's also on your box.
00:04:28
Speaker
And they usually have flags that change like over the course of time.
00:04:32
Speaker
So people will they call it exfiltration.
00:04:34
Speaker
They'll exfiltrate your flags, steal your flags, but they have to keep doing it over and over again because the flags are always changing.
00:04:40
Speaker
So that one's like it's just a little more complicated.
00:04:42
Speaker
It's kind of like a hacking game, I guess, where you're hacking into each other and trying to prevent yourself from getting hacked into.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:04:48
Speaker
It's cool.
00:04:49
Speaker
We have sort of related, like one of the first groups that was made on the website was like a Gamer Girls website.
00:04:54
Speaker
So I don't know how much of them are involved in, I think they're more doing formalized games.
00:04:58
Speaker
I don't know how much of them are involved in any of these types of like cybersecurity games, but this might be of interest to that audience.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, or cultivate a whole new one.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
Gaming definitely is like a huge entry point into cybersecurity.
00:05:12
Speaker
We actually have a friend who works on like Netflix games and they're Netflix games, but like cybersecurity for Netflix gaming.
00:05:19
Speaker
And they worked in like cyber at like Epic or one of those other companies.
00:05:23
Speaker
So it's definitely a huge component to that.
00:05:26
Speaker
Or Bungie or something.
00:05:27
Speaker
Interesting.
AirTags and Privacy Concerns
00:05:28
Speaker
So to get back to the topic at hand, you originally reached out to us about air tags, a post that people had made about air tags.
00:05:35
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about the post and then what made you respond?
00:05:39
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:05:40
Speaker
Actually, I can go into this.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think Rebecca, you should go into the story that we are actually FDS listening.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
So Christina, I started listening to the FDS podcast like back in, I think early January of this year.
00:05:52
Speaker
And it was from your podcast that I discovered your subreddit.
00:05:55
Speaker
I was an avid lurker at the time.
00:05:57
Speaker
That is so interesting.
00:05:58
Speaker
So we have been focused on trying to figure out if we could expand like our podcast reach and people that find us who are just really in the podcast versus people who found this on the subreddit.
00:06:06
Speaker
So it's interesting that you guys are one of the people that found us through like a podcast, like interest in podcasts other than just the subreddit.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I think I was like doom scrolling the FDS subreddit like late on a Sunday night, maybe fighting off those Sunday scaries.
00:06:19
Speaker
And I came across the post.
00:06:21
Speaker
It was Apple AirTags, a perfect tool for stalking.
00:06:24
Speaker
And the post detailed this article that was shared regarding a woman who got like this disturbing notification on her phone after, I think, a late night at the bar or a date that she just like left.
00:06:33
Speaker
And it was like said, like, you know, AirTag found moving with you.
00:06:36
Speaker
The location of this AirTag can be seen by the owner.
00:06:39
Speaker
And it was pretty creepy.
00:06:41
Speaker
And if you've never seen this before, or you have no idea what an air tag is, you know, some people might just ignore this notification or they might completely like panic from seeing something like this.
00:06:50
Speaker
Like, what is this?
00:06:51
Speaker
This is really creepy.
00:06:52
Speaker
And so I like flipped when I saw this post because I know Christine has been working on a research paper on this very topic.
00:06:57
Speaker
And so I was like, no one would be more qualified than Christine to not only explain what is going on, but also to kind of bust some of the myths and soothe some of the anxiety of what I was seeing in like the comments from the post.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, so like to kind of sidebar, I am part of a research team that actively does Apple research.
00:07:14
Speaker
Specifically, we've published papers on, it's called Continuity, which is Apple's proprietary Bluetooth protocol.
00:07:22
Speaker
So we've been tracking AirTags,
00:07:25
Speaker
probably a year before they came out because they run on the Find My Network, which is an ecosystem of Apple devices.
00:07:34
Speaker
So before AirTags were even released by Apple, Apple actually had instituted this Find My Network, which also runs on the Bluetooth continuity protocol.
00:07:46
Speaker
So the goal of creating Find My was so that you could find your phone, especially like if you lose your phone.
00:07:53
Speaker
And that was why they originally instituted it.
00:07:56
Speaker
But then they created the AirTags, which are these tokens that allow you to find items that you've lost.
00:08:04
Speaker
The thing that differentiates Find My is that it's a crowdsourcing tool to let you geolocate only using Bluetooth.
00:08:11
Speaker
So AirTags themselves aren't connected to the internet.
00:08:14
Speaker
There's not like a GPS chip in there.
00:08:16
Speaker
It's literally just using Bluetooth to geolocate.
00:08:19
Speaker
And then it's crowdsourcing from iDevices in the iOS ecosystem.
00:08:25
Speaker
So they will communicate over Bluetooth to other devices to kind of geolocate via this crowdsourcing mechanism.
00:08:33
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:08:33
Speaker
So I think a lot of people assume it's some kind of like GPS satellite tracking, almost like how bats do, or it's just like echolocation off of other Apple devices to find where your device is, where you are, I guess, if you have your device on you.
00:08:46
Speaker
So how does that change the security mechanisms like versus like a GPS tracker?
00:08:51
Speaker
Basically, when Rebecca saw the post and she sent it to me, she was like, hey, you should check this out and maybe like write something on this.
00:08:59
Speaker
Because I was reading the comments about like protecting yourself from air tags.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I was like, wait, a lot of these are wrong.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I think it's because people don't understand how it works.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I actually wanted to like write a post on the Reddit, but I didn't have a flare.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think most of us assume it's magic.
00:09:15
Speaker
We're like, yeah, magic.
00:09:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
And then I was like, oh my gosh, how can I explain this?
00:09:20
Speaker
Like, so people can understand.
00:09:21
Speaker
And then I like, didn't have a flare.
00:09:22
Speaker
So I like, wrote out this really long post and then like, it was beautiful.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
And I was like, Rebecca, what do you think?
00:09:27
Speaker
And I'm like, it's great.
00:09:28
Speaker
Let's send it.
00:09:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:29
Speaker
And then I didn't have a flare.
00:09:30
Speaker
Cause I was like, it was immediately removed when she posted it.
00:09:33
Speaker
We're lurkers.
00:09:34
Speaker
We're just, you know, long time lurkers.
00:09:37
Speaker
Once again, another reason why we wanted to move off of Reddit is because of the fact that it was so hard.
00:09:41
Speaker
First of all, get quality posters and then have the bandwidth of people reviewing posts to get the quality stuff posted.
00:09:49
Speaker
So yeah, it just got out of hand.
00:09:50
Speaker
So man, I would totally love to see that.
00:09:52
Speaker
I'm so sorry your post did not get approved.
00:09:54
Speaker
I apologize.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, because that sounds massively interesting and like something that people would want to know about, but it's so hard on Reddit.
00:10:02
Speaker
And then the other thing too is like you type all that stuff up and then it's just on Reddit.
00:10:06
Speaker
Whereas I feel like if we have it on our website, we can like distribute it like through newsletters.
00:10:10
Speaker
People can see your writing, etc.
00:10:12
Speaker
Exactly.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:13
Speaker
Even like, oh, we could like host a Twitter AMA or like for your Discord or Patreon or something in case people listen to this episode and they're like, OK, I'm still confused because I understand like it is really complicated.
00:10:24
Speaker
So I was reverse engineering this Bluetooth protocol and it was crazy.
00:10:27
Speaker
interesting to figure out how they implemented it.
00:10:30
Speaker
So I think Apple kind of copied Tile when they did this, because if you ever heard of like the Tile trackers, Tiles were also like Bluetooth only.
00:10:41
Speaker
And the way that that would work is like if you had a phone with the Tile app and you opened the Tile app, then your phone would be like, oh, I got a Bluetooth message from like a nearby Tile.
00:10:52
Speaker
And then it would record something like the Tile database.
00:10:56
Speaker
And then somebody who owns that tile could pull that information down from the tile database because your nearby phone reported that to tile.
00:11:05
Speaker
And that's exactly how AirTags work.
00:11:07
Speaker
So you'll have an AirTag token and all of the nearby phones are receiving these Bluetooth messages.
00:11:14
Speaker
And they're like, oh yeah, there's an AirTag over here.
00:11:16
Speaker
There's an AirTag over here.
00:11:17
Speaker
And
Vulnerabilities in Apple's AirTag System
00:11:18
Speaker
they're just reporting back to Apple saying, hey, my location is here, this latitude, longitude, and I saw this AirTag.
00:11:27
Speaker
And then they just send it to Apple.
00:11:28
Speaker
And so the owner of that AirTag can then query Apple and say, hey, where's my AirTag?
00:11:33
Speaker
And then if there's a location report in Apple's database, they'll be able to see that location.
00:11:38
Speaker
So it's only the only person who could see your location would be Apple.
00:11:42
Speaker
It could be next to impossible for someone else on the network to retrieve the information as to where your specific tag is.
00:11:49
Speaker
Right.
00:11:49
Speaker
And everything is completely encrypted.
00:11:52
Speaker
So even Apple actually can't access that information.
00:11:55
Speaker
Apple tries to do it completely anonymously.
00:11:58
Speaker
They claim they don't know who the reporting devices are.
00:12:01
Speaker
So like my phone reports.
00:12:02
Speaker
your AirTags location.
00:12:04
Speaker
They don't know it's me.
00:12:05
Speaker
They don't know it's you.
00:12:06
Speaker
Only you can actually pull down that information because you have a decryption key to decrypt that encrypted message.
00:12:14
Speaker
I've seen a bunch of commercials for Apple lately where they've been really, really highlighting the extent of their data security.
00:12:20
Speaker
It's hard because I know that trying to explain this to maybe like the average person, they're like not exactly sure how it works.
00:12:26
Speaker
But it's nice to know that they've actually thought out how people use their device and then how they can make sure that there's data security from end to end.
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think like our first paper was pointing out a kind of a flaw in this because Apple is really well-intentioned, but sometimes they create issues.
00:12:43
Speaker
So our research team and then another research team actually figured out that this Find My Protocol is
00:12:49
Speaker
Because it's so anonymous and it's supposed to make it so that, you know, the finder devices aren't giving any information and the lost devices aren't giving any private information, that anybody can actually make their own custom AirTag and put it on the Find My Network and leverage that anonymous reporting, which
00:13:08
Speaker
which is actually bad because we published a research paper last year showing that you can circumvent all of these notifications that Apple is giving by making your own AirTag.
00:13:20
Speaker
And we were like, OK, Apple needs to fix this protocol because I can just make my own AirTag.
00:13:26
Speaker
And even though Apple is using, they call it the anti-tracking framework, even though they created this anti-tracking framework to detect
00:13:33
Speaker
malicious trackers that somebody might put in your purse, like an AirTag, they won't detect my AirTag.
00:13:38
Speaker
That's like my custom one that I wrote my own algorithm for that's riding this find my network.
00:13:43
Speaker
So that was like pretty scary.
00:13:45
Speaker
So what's the risk there?
00:13:46
Speaker
So if someone makes their own AirTag and pings the Apple's database, is it the fear that they would make an AirTag that mimics someone's that already exists and pull data that's not theirs?
00:13:55
Speaker
No.
00:13:55
Speaker
So the problem is that Apple, like people have been getting these anti-tracking pop-ups saying like, oh, there's an AirTag traveling with you.
00:14:04
Speaker
The fear is that using a custom AirTag, they wouldn't get that alert at all.
00:14:09
Speaker
And so I would be able to track their location without them even getting an alert.
00:14:14
Speaker
How would you get their data with your own?
00:14:16
Speaker
I guess I'm trying to figure out like how does the person who has like the fake self-created AirTag then get someone else's data from Apple?
00:14:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker
So it's my air tag.
00:14:24
Speaker
Like I'm getting that data.
00:14:26
Speaker
So I guess the way I can explain this is if I was like a screw and I wanted to follow you.
00:14:31
Speaker
Let's say I put an air tag in your purse at a bar.
00:14:34
Speaker
Then every time I log in to find my I can see where you are at that moment.
00:14:42
Speaker
Oh, OK.
00:14:42
Speaker
So they basically they could put it on your person.
00:14:45
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:46
Speaker
And then like track you in a way that you wouldn't know.
00:14:48
Speaker
That makes sense.
00:14:49
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:50
Speaker
So the thing with air tags is that I can't pull down a history of locations.
00:14:54
Speaker
So like if you go to a bar and then you go to like CVS and then you go like to your friend's house and then you go home.
00:15:00
Speaker
Unless I'm like constantly staring at Find My, like refreshing, I won't see each individual location.
00:15:06
Speaker
And so I would have to like record that as a psycho stalker.
00:15:10
Speaker
But with the custom AirTags, because we reverse engineered how Apple does the location reporting, we actually figured out a mechanism where you can pull down timestamp latitude longitudes.
00:15:22
Speaker
So...
00:15:22
Speaker
a really bad person could put their custom AirTag, which is like an AirTag that they made themselves in your bag, and then they could pull down those location reports and they would have like timestamped information.
00:15:34
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:15:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
So that's why we reported to Apple and we're like, you know, this is really irresponsible of Apple to kind of create this network that like somebody who is an engineer can figure out how to leverage this for malicious purpose.
00:15:47
Speaker
So yeah, we definitely are hoping our next paper that's upcoming are actually, it's a recommendation to Apple suggesting to them how they can fix it so that people can't just like randomly add their own fake malicious trackers onto the Find My Network.
00:16:01
Speaker
So it's hopefully giving them a way that they can lock it down so that if I was a bad person, I couldn't just make my own fake air tag.
00:16:07
Speaker
I would imagine you could also do this if they gave you a real AirTag, right?
00:16:10
Speaker
Like if I recall correctly, I think I've even seen this probably on Inside Edition or something where like either a husband, I think it was like a malicious husband, just like stuck his phone or something like that or some kind of iPod device in his wife's car to like see where she was going.
00:16:25
Speaker
So it's like even if they were to, I think, get rid of all the fake ones, like what would be what's stopping from someone from using a real one and doing the same thing?
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, really, I think the anti-tracking framework, which leaves a lot to be desired still.
00:16:39
Speaker
So I have reverse engineered and done testing with the anti-tracking framework.
00:16:44
Speaker
And the issue with the notifications that people are getting on their phone from Apple is that it just takes too long for
00:16:52
Speaker
still.
00:16:52
Speaker
So originally, I think iOS 14 5.1 was the first version of iOS that was compatible with AirTags.
00:17:00
Speaker
So at that point, that was the first version that had the like location tracking and Apple had written the anti-tracking framework so that it would take 24 hours for you to get any kind of notification, which is really bad because that means that somebody could be
00:17:17
Speaker
have an AirTag in your bag following around for a whole day and you would just have no idea.
00:17:21
Speaker
When iOS 15 came out, they tried to shorten that time period.
00:17:25
Speaker
So it still takes a couple hours because it just depends on like the frequency of the reports.
00:17:30
Speaker
But one of the biggest drawbacks is it doesn't usually get triggered unless you move greater than a mile in distance.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
And I noticed that because I've lost my phone a few times.
00:17:41
Speaker
My dog sometimes goes crazy on the leash and it's just knocked my phone out of my pocket.
00:17:46
Speaker
Mine too.
00:17:47
Speaker
And I've realized that like, oh, this isn't that exact of a location.
00:17:51
Speaker
It could be anywhere within a mile of where I lost my phone.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:55
Speaker
Because it's always like it's who is nearby.
00:17:58
Speaker
So like you might be seeing a location report because if nobody in the area has iPhones, as an example, and you lose your iPhone, only iPhones are like reporting that location.
00:18:09
Speaker
So you'd have it's like the last time that a person with an iPhone like walked by you.
00:18:13
Speaker
So it can sometimes be really inaccurate.
00:18:15
Speaker
And yeah, it's been like a mile.
00:18:17
Speaker
Like Rebecca and I were doing some testing and we were like, yeah, it literally didn't say anything, even though like imagine it going for like a night out and you bar hop.
00:18:25
Speaker
It's like every single bar that you go to, you probably won't get the notifications until you go home.
00:18:29
Speaker
And if it's bars like near you, then you probably won't get it till you've been home for like an hour.
00:18:34
Speaker
So yeah, it's definitely pretty scary and frustrating.
00:18:37
Speaker
So it's kind of on Apple to adjust the algorithm to make it a little bit better.
00:18:41
Speaker
So what were your proposed solutions?
00:18:43
Speaker
Well, we had a couple.
00:18:44
Speaker
So maybe it'd be good if we could talk about some of the myths.
00:18:48
Speaker
Oh, sure.
00:18:49
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:18:50
Speaker
That people had because there were some online proposed solutions in like the FDS Reddit comments.
00:18:56
Speaker
And TikToks.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, all the TikToks.
00:18:58
Speaker
And there's a lot of things that were just kind of wrong.
00:19:01
Speaker
So we want to say what's wrong and then tell people what's right.
Myths and Misconceptions about AirTag Notifications
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:05
Speaker
Like we even saw a TikTok where someone went over like the map pop up on your phone that you see.
00:19:10
Speaker
So like when you see that map pop up on your phone, there are red dots.
00:19:13
Speaker
And someone said that, oh, the red dots are showing when the owner of the air tag has checked your location.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, I literally I saw that and I was like, that's actually not true.
00:19:23
Speaker
because like I said before, like the AirTag doesn't have internet.
00:19:26
Speaker
It doesn't have a GPS device in it.
00:19:28
Speaker
It's not like a mini computer.
00:19:30
Speaker
So there's no way for the owner to directly connect to the AirTag.
00:19:34
Speaker
The only time your phone directly connects to the AirTag is when you're doing the pairing process.
00:19:40
Speaker
So all of those red dots are actually just part of the anti-tracking framework and the red dots indicate a significant location.
00:19:49
Speaker
So when you're walking places and it's
00:19:52
Speaker
Kind of like when you're in the same location for 30 minutes or longer, Apple will say, oh, this is a significant location.
00:20:00
Speaker
And here's all of the Bluetooth messages we've received from AirTags nearby us.
00:20:06
Speaker
And they just save it, but they don't do anything.
00:20:09
Speaker
with it.
00:20:09
Speaker
So imagine like bar hopping, you go to one bar, you're there for 30 minutes, next bar, you're there for 30 minutes.
00:20:14
Speaker
Maybe you want to go to like, I don't know, Walgreens, and then you're there for like 30 minutes.
00:20:18
Speaker
All of those would be listed as significant locations.
00:20:21
Speaker
But if you're all within one mile radius, you won't actually get the pop-up.
00:20:25
Speaker
So then when you finally get home and you get the pop-up of, oh, there's an AirTag found moving with you, you'll see all of those different dots on the map.
00:20:34
Speaker
But that's just because Apple has been tracking it in the background.
00:20:37
Speaker
That's not
00:20:38
Speaker
telling you that somebody queried the location of that AirTag.
00:20:42
Speaker
The thing that is a little bit nerve wracking is you don't know because it's all anonymous and private.
00:20:49
Speaker
Like if I own an AirTag and I open the Find My app and I'm like, oh, where's my backpack or where's my
00:20:55
Speaker
wallet.
00:20:56
Speaker
There's no way for anybody else to know how many times I've clicked that.
00:21:00
Speaker
So if you do get one of these pop-ups, you should assume that all of the places you have been, they may have opened up their Find My app and they may have checked and they may know that you were there at that time.
00:21:12
Speaker
So they don't have like a live view of like, oh, this is all the places that you've been, if that makes sense.
00:21:18
Speaker
So Apple would know where you were.
00:21:20
Speaker
So Apple also wouldn't know only if you open the Find My app at that time.
00:21:25
Speaker
So like if I was a stalker and I was stalking you all night and I was sitting on my phone like refresh, refresh, refresh, I would know every single dot that you've been to because your phone is seeing an AirTag at that place.
00:21:38
Speaker
So Apple.
00:21:39
Speaker
I would also have all of those locations, but I would actively have to be checking at all times.
00:21:44
Speaker
Like, let's say I'm a stalker and then I am stalking a bunch of people and I forgot about you.
00:21:48
Speaker
And then I went to check like three hours later when I opened the Find My app, I would only see like where you currently are.
00:21:55
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:56
Speaker
So it doesn't record where you've been.
00:21:58
Speaker
What about the custom or self-made AirTags?
00:22:01
Speaker
Would those record where you've been?
00:22:02
Speaker
Because I think you mentioned that some of those can.
00:22:05
Speaker
That's completely would be different software than what's currently out there.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
So I definitely like, and sometimes if they don't program them correctly, they do trigger the anti-tracking alerts, which is good on Apple for doing that.
00:22:17
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, not to freak people out, but it is a possibility for
Handling AirTag Tracking Incidents
00:22:21
Speaker
it.
00:22:21
Speaker
Somebody to make a custom tracker and pull down all of the location reports and for you like not to know about it and for them to have timestamps of when you were at a specific location.
00:22:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of disturbing.
00:22:34
Speaker
Another comment that we would see like some kind of mitigation tactic was some people were advising, you know, just turn off your Bluetooth.
00:22:41
Speaker
Oh yeah, this was also like, I was like, oh my God, no, like don't do that.
00:22:45
Speaker
Because the problem is it's not necessarily your phone.
00:22:49
Speaker
It's all of the phones around you, specifically iPhones that are crowdsourcing your location.
00:22:56
Speaker
So like, let's say you did turn off your Bluetooth.
00:22:58
Speaker
Well, when you go into a bar, all of the people with iPhones in the bar, their phones are automatically reporting these locations.
00:23:07
Speaker
So I would still be able to track you in that bar.
00:23:10
Speaker
And then if you go to another bar, as long as people have iPhones, I would still be able to track you.
00:23:15
Speaker
And then let's say you live in an apartment building or you live with other people and they have iPhones.
00:23:21
Speaker
When you get home, all of your neighbor's phones or your family's phones.
00:23:25
Speaker
will also be reporting.
00:23:27
Speaker
So turning off your own personal Bluetooth is not a good idea.
00:23:31
Speaker
And it's actually detrimental to you because if you turn off Bluetooth, that means that your iPhone is not detecting anything around you.
00:23:40
Speaker
So then you actually won't get those anti-tracking alerts.
00:23:44
Speaker
No notifications.
00:23:46
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:47
Speaker
Oh, that's interesting.
00:23:47
Speaker
So it's almost the exact opposite of the advice they're giving.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:51
Speaker
So you want it to be on, like if your phone's on, you have it in your possession.
00:23:55
Speaker
You want it to be on because you want to be able to be alerted if someone's trying to track you.
00:24:00
Speaker
And if you turn off your Bluetooth, you will no longer be able to get those alerts.
00:24:03
Speaker
So the person who is trying to track you will still be able to see where you are.
00:24:07
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:09
Speaker
With their AirTag, but you won't be able to see that you're being tracked.
00:24:13
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:14
Speaker
And that was like the biggest reason where I was like, we have to like talk to FDS and correct these misconceptions because people are like, there are all these comments where like, just turn off your Bluetooth.
00:24:26
Speaker
And I was like, no, like don't do that.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:30
Speaker
Or another one where it's like, oh, just throw it in the trash or, you know, put it in a washing machine or smack it with a hammer or something like that.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:39
Speaker
So this actually is also like all really bad, like misconceptions.
00:24:43
Speaker
So if you find a tracker on you and you just like throw it away, that's like if you find like a bug in your house and you throw that away in the trash, but you didn't like kill it or anything.
00:24:53
Speaker
Like if you throw a cockroach in the trash, it's going to like come out.
00:24:57
Speaker
So if you throw the air tag in the trash.
00:25:00
Speaker
We have experience with this.
00:25:02
Speaker
If one of you throw, if you throw the air tag in the trash, like, and you have an iPhone, your location will still be recorded and still be reported.
00:25:09
Speaker
So they'll still see your location.
00:25:11
Speaker
Or again, like if you have neighbors or family members, like throwing in the trash, don't do that.
00:25:15
Speaker
That's no.
00:25:16
Speaker
But also destroying it is also bad because that's evidence.
00:25:21
Speaker
And you need to give that to the police.
00:25:24
Speaker
And there is a way to read the serial number off the device.
00:25:28
Speaker
If you hold the AirTag next to your phone, it will have a web page pop up that gives you the serial number of the AirTag and also the last four digits of the phone number that's registered to the AirTag.
00:25:38
Speaker
Really good information for the police.
00:25:39
Speaker
And then they can work with Apple to find out who owns that AirTag.
00:25:42
Speaker
So if you destroy it, you're like destroying the evidence because that's like really the only information you have to find out who's stalking you.
00:25:49
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:25:50
Speaker
So definitely don't do that.
00:25:51
Speaker
And then also Apple kind of gives bad advice because they're like, oh, if you find this AirTag, disable it.
00:25:58
Speaker
And then there's like a little pop up on your phone and the instructions to disable it are just taking the battery out.
00:26:04
Speaker
So I don't recommend doing this.
00:26:06
Speaker
I actually recommend going to a police station and calling the police and only disabling it once you're at the police station.
00:26:15
Speaker
Because if you take the battery out or destroy the AirTag, let's say you did that,
00:26:19
Speaker
That person won't be getting live updates from the AirTag, but inside their Find My app, it will say like, this AirTag was last seen at this time at this location.
00:26:30
Speaker
So if you destroy it at your house, then it will be like, oh, Ro destroyed this.
00:26:35
Speaker
Like Ro was last seen at her house at like midnight.
00:26:38
Speaker
And then they'll have in their thing like, this is where you were at midnight.
00:26:42
Speaker
And they'll just have that address.
00:26:44
Speaker
So you don't want to destroy it or disable, like take the battery out in your house because then that's always in their thing.
00:26:50
Speaker
Can we leave them on a fantastical treasure hunt?
00:26:54
Speaker
No, I personally recommend going to your ex-boyfriend's house and destroying it there, but that's just me.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, or giving it to the cops.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, one or the other.
00:27:05
Speaker
Depends on how you're feeling.
00:27:06
Speaker
Imagine they show up to stalk you and they show up at the police station and they're like, oh shit.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:12
Speaker
Volunteer to get arrested.
00:27:14
Speaker
What you could do is, this is really devious, you go to your ex's house, take the battery out, and then that location is what's time-scamped in find my, and then you go to the police station.
00:27:24
Speaker
We obviously have some pretty troubled pasts, if that wasn't apparent.
00:27:28
Speaker
I like the ability to overcome adversity with diabolicalness, so I admire that.
00:27:32
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:27:32
Speaker
When I played DEFCON Capture the Flag, I was team evil.
00:27:36
Speaker
That's what I was in charge of because we had to think of creative ways to not get hacked into or when people hacked into us, think that they were hacking something that actually wasn't very important.
00:27:44
Speaker
So that was my job.
00:27:46
Speaker
Nice, nice sneaky.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to know more about like, when it's used for stalking, I wanted to know more basically about like, how is it actually used for stalking?
00:27:55
Speaker
Like, you know, we've talked so far about from the perspective of the person being stalked, but I like to get inside the mind of these, like, you know, psycho stalkers kind of thing.
00:28:02
Speaker
Like, so what is it like from their perspective, basically using it?
00:28:07
Speaker
And like, tell me more about some things that some ways that it's like used for stalking and like how women can like protect themselves from that.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I think it's definitely being used by people who are trying to hurt women in some way, whether it's like human trafficking or sexual assault.
00:28:22
Speaker
I definitely think that there's women who have reported finding air tags.
00:28:27
Speaker
There was a girl who was with her family at Disney World and she was like maybe like 15 or 16 years.
00:28:33
Speaker
And they got the notification.
00:28:35
Speaker
So that's really scary.
00:28:36
Speaker
There was a Sports Illustrated model.
00:28:39
Speaker
I think her name was Brooke Snader and she was being stalked by somebody.
00:28:43
Speaker
So that's definitely anybody stalking somebody is obviously has, you know, something wrong and it's up to no good.
00:28:50
Speaker
One of our biggest challenges.
00:28:51
Speaker
reasons for wanting to do this research is actually intimate partner violence because if you have a partner who wants to track you, you might not actually get some of those anti-tracking notifications because the air tag goes into different modes depending on if the person who's the owner is near you or
00:29:09
Speaker
or not.
00:29:10
Speaker
So like if I was trying to track my partner, I could put it in their purse.
00:29:16
Speaker
And then when we're home together, there wouldn't be any notification on their part because it's like we're home and I'm with the air tag.
00:29:24
Speaker
Then if they went out to like the store, I would know all of the places that they're going and they might not necessarily get a notification.
00:29:31
Speaker
So that's why when we had originally reported to Apple, we were like, you have to give people reports on
00:29:37
Speaker
more than in 24-hour increments because every time somebody leaves the house and comes home, it would reset that 24-hour cycle.
00:29:44
Speaker
So that's like one of the biggest reasons why I think Apple adjusted their algorithm to make it so that it gives reports sooner.
00:29:52
Speaker
So now instead of like somebody leaving their house, coming home every night and it resetting that 24-hour clock and never getting anti-tracking notifications, now if they are out for like a couple hours running errands, they will likely get a notification on their phone.
00:30:07
Speaker
So that person can't track you without you knowing for long periods of time like they would have been if you were only getting it every 24 hours.
00:30:14
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:15
Speaker
And so that's why one of the biggest tips I have for people, keep your phone up to date.
00:30:20
Speaker
You want to have the latest and greatest version of iOS because the original version was so bad with AirTag.
00:30:26
Speaker
So like, don't ignore those updates.
00:30:29
Speaker
Maybe like you hate the new UI or something, but I think that's really not important when it comes to like personal safety.
Security Measures Against AirTag Tracking
00:30:35
Speaker
So always keep your phone up to date.
00:30:37
Speaker
And anytime a new version comes out, it's really important to try to get that as soon as possible.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:41
Speaker
Another thing really quickly, I don't know if you've, we've covered this yet, but what, so what happens, Christine, when you don't have an iPhone?
00:30:46
Speaker
So if I don't have an iPhone, how do I get these notifications?
00:30:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:30:50
Speaker
So I think there's like two really big misconceptions here that we saw.
00:30:54
Speaker
So one was, oh, I don't have an iPhone, so I don't have to worry about this.
00:31:00
Speaker
And again, like we said, it's crowdsourced.
00:31:02
Speaker
So you not having an iPhone doesn't mean that somebody can't track you with an AirTag because anybody in the bar has an iPhone or your neighbors or your family has iPhone.
00:31:11
Speaker
Your location will be tracked whether or not you have an iPhone, whether or not your Bluetooth is on.
00:31:16
Speaker
The flip side of that is people have been saying, oh,
00:31:18
Speaker
I don't have an iPhone, so I'm screwed.
00:31:20
Speaker
There's no way for me to get these tracking notifications.
00:31:23
Speaker
And we do have two solutions for women.
00:31:26
Speaker
One, I think, is better than the other.
00:31:28
Speaker
The first solution is AirGuard.
00:31:30
Speaker
And this was created by some of like kind of counterpart researchers at TU Darmstadt in Germany.
00:31:37
Speaker
It's the CIMU Research Lab.
00:31:39
Speaker
And this guy, Alex, who's done a lot of iOS research, has created an app called AirGuard that is open source.
00:31:48
Speaker
app store.
00:31:49
Speaker
And so anybody who has an Android phone can download this.
00:31:52
Speaker
So Apple also created an anti-tracking app called Tracker Detect that's also free in the app store.
00:31:59
Speaker
So again, if you see any other apps, like I've seen some fake ones that charge money that claim to track AirTags, you don't want those.
00:32:05
Speaker
Like it's always free.
00:32:06
Speaker
So AirGuard and Tracker Detect.
00:32:08
Speaker
One of the issues with Tracker Detect is it doesn't work on older devices.
00:32:13
Speaker
So I have a couple of Android phones I tested on and like older phones, it wasn't
00:32:18
Speaker
even available in the app store.
00:32:20
Speaker
So they were just like two off brand or two old versions or something and it couldn't even find the app.
00:32:25
Speaker
And then one thing that I think is kind of unsafe is tracker detect.
00:32:29
Speaker
If it detects an air tag that is following you or near you, you have to wait 10 minutes before you can make it play a sound.
00:32:38
Speaker
So this is frustrating because if you do get a notification, the first thing you want to do is try and find like where that air tag is.
00:32:46
Speaker
Like, is it in your purse?
00:32:47
Speaker
Is it in your pockets?
00:32:48
Speaker
Like, where is it?
00:32:49
Speaker
Is it in your car?
00:32:50
Speaker
And if you have to wait 10 minutes, like that could be like dramatic, like life or death.
00:32:54
Speaker
So like, I wouldn't want to wait 10 minutes before I can try and find it by playing a sound.
00:32:59
Speaker
So air guard doesn't have any limitations.
00:33:02
Speaker
So you can just, if you detect an air tag nearby, you can attempt to make it play a sound.
00:33:06
Speaker
So that's really helpful.
00:33:08
Speaker
It also has a really great like manual scan capability.
00:33:12
Speaker
So even though it has like a tracking mechanism that will just run in the background, pretty similar to Apple's notifications, I think AirGuard is actually even better than like Apple's app because I can't press a button on my iPhone currently and say, hey, find all of the Bluetooth devices near me.
00:33:30
Speaker
But AirGuard actually can do that.
00:33:33
Speaker
And it also tracks other types of Bluetooth devices.
00:33:36
Speaker
So AirGuard will track like those custom AirTags that people try to make.
00:33:41
Speaker
It will show tiles like we saw Rebecca's neighbor had a tile.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah, I found a couple of them.
00:33:46
Speaker
Apparently.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:48
Speaker
So it's pretty great.
00:33:49
Speaker
I actually got tiles for a Christmas gift.
00:33:51
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:33:54
Speaker
Which I thought was a really like nice and useful, thoughtful gift.
00:33:57
Speaker
I'm like, yes, I'm a person that likes these because I just lose things.
00:34:00
Speaker
But yeah, I didn't know any of this like cybersecurity information when I got
Tile vs AirTags: A Comparison
00:34:04
Speaker
it.
00:34:04
Speaker
So now I'm like, okay, well now I'm going to have to go back and retrace my steps to make sure that I have all these trackers in place so I can know in the future if anybody's trying to track me.
00:34:14
Speaker
Well, Tile is good.
00:34:15
Speaker
I feel like when they first came out, because they came out so long ago, I want to say like almost 10 years ago or even earlier.
00:34:21
Speaker
But like, I think they kind of fell flat because they didn't have that ecosystem yet.
00:34:27
Speaker
Like you only could do this crowdsourcing with other people that had the Tile app.
00:34:33
Speaker
And at that time, because it was so new, like nobody had it.
00:34:35
Speaker
So now tile is probably a really useful geolocation mechanism.
00:34:40
Speaker
But like way back when I remember, like I had a tile and I like lost it like in my room and I was like, well, I'm never gonna find it because like nobody else has a tile.
00:34:47
Speaker
And like it's not if the battery probably died because then the battery died.
00:34:50
Speaker
results sound like really bad, but Apple definitely copied that idea from Tile.
00:34:56
Speaker
And then they had an advantage because instead of needing a certain app, they were just able to ride the entire Apple ecosystem by default, which is like billions of devices.
00:35:08
Speaker
They absolutely blew the competition out of the water in that case, because instead of buying a specific mechanism for it, you can leverage the entire vast Apple empire.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:35:18
Speaker
That we all live under.
00:35:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:20
Speaker
And even now, like somebody could even use like, I mean, they could put a phone in your pocket to track you, which like sounds like not a big deal, but like the latest iOS updates have made it.
00:35:32
Speaker
So when you turn your phone off,
00:35:34
Speaker
It's not actually fully powered off, but still has some capabilities, which includes Bluetooth.
00:35:40
Speaker
So if I was a bad person, I could just put my phone in your purse and then I can go on my laptop and use Find My and use that as like a quote air tag.
00:35:49
Speaker
So what are the trade-offs?
00:35:50
Speaker
Because a lot of times I know why they have this level of detail with geolocation and the ability to find you is because people use it for emergency situations, right?
00:35:58
Speaker
Like my Apple Watch has like an emergency SOS.
00:36:00
Speaker
So if I'm on a jog and I get hurt and I don't have my phone, then someone can find me.
00:36:05
Speaker
So do you think that the benefits of that outweigh the cost of stalking or like the risks of stalking?
00:36:11
Speaker
Honestly, I feel like that's a really tough question.
00:36:13
Speaker
Like part of it, part of me is like, I'm like you where I'm like, oh yeah, I lose myself all the time.
00:36:18
Speaker
And like, I want to put an air tug on my dog's collar, like just in case.
00:36:21
Speaker
And so I really like the aspect of personal safety and being able to find things that I've lost.
00:36:28
Speaker
But sometimes it is like at what cost.
00:36:31
Speaker
So Apple, in my opinion, needs to do a better job making it so that
00:36:36
Speaker
unregistered or like non-Apple devices can't just like hop on the Find My Network and leverage their network.
00:36:42
Speaker
They obviously can't affect like tiles and like other trackers that are out there because there's some GPS trackers out there that people can buy on Amazon and things like that.
00:36:51
Speaker
But I do think that each individual company kind of has a responsibility to make sure that their specific technology isn't being leveraged for something bad.
The Dual Nature of Technology
00:37:00
Speaker
So it's like the technology is great.
00:37:01
Speaker
And this happens so many times when it comes to technology.
00:37:04
Speaker
It's like they're just really, really focused on building.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:07
Speaker
And then like the dream and the vision and they don't really shore up the security issues until like it becomes like an insurmountable problem.
00:37:14
Speaker
Exactly.
00:37:16
Speaker
This is why we can't have nice things because people always go and friggin ruin it.
00:37:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:21
Speaker
So it's like, that's always the danger and like benefit, benefit slash danger of any new technology is like increased opportunity, but that opportunity also includes the bad folks that can figure out a way to exploit it.
00:37:33
Speaker
And that just is, that's with any type of technology.
00:37:36
Speaker
So
00:37:36
Speaker
I mean, in general, do you think there's like a limitation of the tech industry?
00:37:39
Speaker
I guess you work in, you know, in cybersecurity.
00:37:41
Speaker
So like one of the things that we noticed is that it's because a lot of times men just don't necessarily conceptualize how bad the problem is with men trying to do horrible things to women.
00:37:50
Speaker
So they don't take it seriously until it's like a massive political issue because there's a big case in the news or enough women start to complain.
00:37:58
Speaker
You think it's just like an oversight on their part?
00:38:00
Speaker
I think it kind of is like
00:38:02
Speaker
I noticed, I read an article about one tech company years ago where somebody was complaining that as an engineer, like working on a project, spending time finding bugs in other people's code and fixing things that were broken and optimizing things really wasn't given as much weight as just like building something new, even if it sucked.
00:38:24
Speaker
So that might kind of a Silicon Valley cultural thing.
00:38:27
Speaker
I think it's a research thing in general.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, actually, that actually happened to us now that I'm thinking about it, because we figured out all this air tag stuff and some other random blog, like they actually published their code to make a fake air tag and like publish the blog about it.
00:38:41
Speaker
And we were like, what are you doing?
00:38:43
Speaker
Like, why would you enable attackers?
00:38:45
Speaker
Like we have we've published only our papers, but not actually our code, because we don't want to enable stalkers and abusers.
00:38:51
Speaker
to do these nefarious things.
00:38:53
Speaker
We publish our paper, but then we also don't publish for like a really long time because we do responsible disclosure to Apple so that Apple can fix it.
00:39:00
Speaker
Meanwhile, this blog just like publishes their code.
00:39:02
Speaker
And I'm like, what are you doing?
00:39:04
Speaker
Like that's so irresponsible.
00:39:06
Speaker
I do remember fairly recently a dating app startup that worked basically, I think with geolocation where it would track if somebody on their app was near you.
00:39:15
Speaker
Oh no.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:39:16
Speaker
Exactly.
00:39:17
Speaker
So I think they tanked, if I'm not mistaken, because literally everyone was like, this is the most horrible idea you've ever thought of, like because of the security risk.
00:39:24
Speaker
No, because Christine and I were just talking about this.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah, because I was like, we should talk about this on our episode.
00:39:30
Speaker
So I tried, I like tried like all the dating apps, I think, except for like one, because I like, I knew someone that worked there and I was like...
00:39:37
Speaker
I don't like them.
00:39:37
Speaker
They have bad relationships.
00:39:39
Speaker
They make bad relationship choices.
00:39:40
Speaker
So I don't trust their algorithm.
00:39:42
Speaker
I don't know.
00:39:42
Speaker
Maybe that's petty, but I tried this one and I like tried it for like a day or two.
00:39:47
Speaker
And then I was like, this is stupid because it was a geolocation
Security Risks in Geolocation-Based Apps
00:39:51
Speaker
thing.
00:39:51
Speaker
And you're supposed to set a radius around your house so that it's supposed to be like, ideally, Oh, you and this person go to the same coffee shop.
00:39:58
Speaker
Like you have similar interests or like you both work out at like this gym.
00:40:01
Speaker
Like you have similar interests or like
00:40:03
Speaker
whatever.
00:40:03
Speaker
And instead I was like only getting hits, like basically at my apartment.
00:40:08
Speaker
And I was like, okay, obviously this person like is my neighbor.
00:40:11
Speaker
Like, no.
00:40:14
Speaker
It was like probably during COVID, right?
00:40:16
Speaker
So everyone was staying home.
00:40:17
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:40:18
Speaker
It was during COVID.
00:40:18
Speaker
And I was like, you know what?
00:40:19
Speaker
Like, this just seems like hot mess express and I don't want to get on hot mess express.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah, because it's like, how do you turn it off, right?
00:40:27
Speaker
I guess you could try to block them.
00:40:29
Speaker
But then again, that person's going to know where you live or like about where you are before you get around to blocking them.
00:40:34
Speaker
So it does come across like, I guess this is only the type of technology that someone who's never been a woman who tried to date on a dating app would come up with.
00:40:42
Speaker
Because like none of us want anybody, especially if you have a bad date.
00:40:46
Speaker
We don't.
00:40:46
Speaker
do not want that person to be able to track you in any way, shape or form.
00:40:50
Speaker
Like if so many like personal security protocols that we all enact to make sure that we're safe on a date, but also that anybody can't follow us.
00:40:57
Speaker
And this app is just like, yeah, forget all that.
00:40:59
Speaker
Like we're going to make you, we're going to try to connect you with guys in your area and like, ew, I hate the guys in my area.
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:06
Speaker
Well, with that one, too, it's like you don't swipe like you can see this all these pop ups before you even swipe.
00:41:12
Speaker
So like somebody could see my picture and be like, oh, they haven't swiped on me and then like see me in the hallway like that's bizarre.
00:41:20
Speaker
So I was like, this is not a good idea.
00:41:23
Speaker
The whole premise of that just seems like a stalker invented it.
00:41:26
Speaker
Probably, yeah.
00:41:27
Speaker
It's like a creepy man who wanted to stalk people.
00:41:29
Speaker
He's like, damn, and you know, there's no dating apps that make it really easy for me to stalk people.
00:41:34
Speaker
Or stalk women, specifically.
00:41:36
Speaker
I should invent this, and then stalk women with this.
00:41:38
Speaker
Like...
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:03
Speaker
if you give those guys power, they're going to come find you and we don't want them to find us.
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:09
Speaker
We don't want this.
00:42:10
Speaker
No.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:11
Speaker
A lot of these misconnections are just like, yeah, man wanted to hit on a girl or didn't have the confidence to do it.
00:42:18
Speaker
And then he's like, okay, I'm just going to use this app to go, you know, or use this function to go find them, you know?
00:42:23
Speaker
So it's like, yeah, maybe we didn't want you to connect with us.
Workplace Misconnection and Dating Risks
00:42:26
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:26
Speaker
That's why we didn't talk to you.
00:42:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:42:28
Speaker
I had a missed connection at work in the elevator.
00:42:31
Speaker
Christine.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:33
Speaker
Well, no, this is what happened.
00:42:34
Speaker
So I was in the elevator and I got to work at like seven.
00:42:37
Speaker
And this guy was like, oh, it's like one of the benefits of getting in early is that you get like good parking or something.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I've met you.
00:42:45
Speaker
And I was like, all right, this is a little weird.
00:42:46
Speaker
And then I guess he read my name off my badge because then when I got to my office, I had an email from him saying,
00:42:54
Speaker
And he was like, hey, it was like great talking to you in the elevator.
00:42:57
Speaker
And I'm like, this conversation was probably like maybe five minutes.
00:43:00
Speaker
It was really weird to me.
00:43:01
Speaker
And I just didn't respond because I was like, I have shit to do.
00:43:05
Speaker
I don't really want to talk to people that I met in the elevator.
00:43:08
Speaker
And then he's like, maybe you can tell me about your job.
00:43:09
Speaker
And I'm like, I don't have time to talk to you about my job.
00:43:12
Speaker
just didn't respond.
00:43:13
Speaker
It was, I thought it was really weird.
00:43:14
Speaker
I was like, why would you read my name like off my badge and then send me an email?
00:43:18
Speaker
Like, is that not weird to you?
00:43:20
Speaker
He's being alpha.
00:43:21
Speaker
No, I mean, not even no joke.
00:43:22
Speaker
Like sometimes the tips that these guys get from these dating gurus and how to approach women, cold approach women, that sounds like that.
00:43:29
Speaker
It's just stalking.
00:43:30
Speaker
It sounds exactly like that.
00:43:31
Speaker
what that's who's doing.
00:43:32
Speaker
Like read her name tag.
00:43:34
Speaker
So she feels like a sense of familiarity, right?
00:43:36
Speaker
Like all these things that they in their mind think is like assertive, assertive behaviors they think is going to make women attracted to them, but just comes across stalkery and weird most of the time in real life.
00:43:45
Speaker
That's what that is.
00:43:46
Speaker
Because we've noticed one of the things we rail against here is like the uptick of those guys in real life because they're getting tips from these like weirdos online and then trying to enact it in real life.
00:43:55
Speaker
And they're just creeping us all out.
00:43:57
Speaker
like, you know, the whole idea of like the one that got away is something that only really exists for men.
00:44:02
Speaker
Like, cause women, we don't have like an idea of like a man or like, you know, the one that got away.
00:44:07
Speaker
It's always like the psycho ex that I ran away from kind of thing.
00:44:10
Speaker
Like, you know, the man is like, oh, she's the one that got away.
00:44:12
Speaker
And we're like, oh, I had to run away.
00:44:15
Speaker
I survived.
00:44:16
Speaker
I got out of it.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:17
Speaker
I got out of it.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:18
Speaker
And so for him, it's like, oh, it's a misconnection.
00:44:20
Speaker
And for us, it's like nearly escaped, you know,
00:44:23
Speaker
Maybe he read one of those productivity gurus, like never eat lunch alone, you know, and he was just trying to form a connection.
00:44:29
Speaker
You never know.
00:44:30
Speaker
I think I had like a lunch pre-COVID.
00:44:32
Speaker
I think they had like a lunch thing.
00:44:33
Speaker
I don't know.
00:44:34
Speaker
There's definitely like employee resource group.
00:44:36
Speaker
There's ways to meet people at work, not in the elevator.
00:44:38
Speaker
I don't know.
00:44:39
Speaker
Maybe I'm just being mean.
00:44:41
Speaker
I'm just like...
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:43
Speaker
No, no, it's weird because you can't go anywhere.
00:44:45
Speaker
Right.
00:44:45
Speaker
And so you just are forced to talk to that weirdo.
00:44:47
Speaker
It's very intrusive.
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:50
Speaker
I think like because they can look up your office and stuff like once they know your name.
00:44:53
Speaker
And I'm like, I had a pretty firm like don't date co-workers policy because I saw it go like really negatively one time at one of my old jobs for somebody else.
00:45:01
Speaker
So I was pretty, pretty firm about that.
00:45:03
Speaker
Even like my current boyfriend, we met at work, but I was like, we can't date if you want to date.
00:45:08
Speaker
And we both work here.
00:45:09
Speaker
And so then he quit.
00:45:10
Speaker
Not enough room in this town for both of us.
00:45:12
Speaker
It can just go, it can go so badly.
00:45:14
Speaker
And I thought go really, really badly for somebody at a job that I was at.
00:45:19
Speaker
And after that, I was like, you know what?
00:45:21
Speaker
There's enough men in the world that I don't have to find one who's in my job.
00:45:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:27
Speaker
I don't know if you shared this publicly about the same, you were kind of the same deal with your boyfriend, right?
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, I have basically like a, I don't date co-workers policy and just basically made my current boyfriend who I met at work, like jumped through hoops for like three years until I find him was like, okay, okay.
00:45:42
Speaker
I like this one now.
00:45:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:45:44
Speaker
I remember you mentioned this on one episode and I was like, oh, we can bond over this.
00:45:48
Speaker
I was actually really good friends with my boyfriend before we started dating.
00:45:52
Speaker
And he like sent me flowers for a couple of months and I just kind of like ignored it.
00:45:56
Speaker
And I think I even said something like, oh, you're such a good friend and like tried to friend zone him.
00:46:00
Speaker
But we were like very good friends.
00:46:02
Speaker
So I just like because, yeah, I didn't want to date a coworker.
00:46:04
Speaker
I mean, I must admit, like, there was chemistry with me and him before, and even other people noticed it.
00:46:09
Speaker
And so, and I was just like, oh, no, I don't date co-workers.
00:46:12
Speaker
And, like, just even after we no longer worked at the same place and, like, with, you know, the pandemic, everyone's working from home anyways, right?
00:46:18
Speaker
But I just wanted to stay friends with him for a while.
00:46:21
Speaker
And then he, you know, won me over.
00:46:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:24
Speaker
He swept me on my feet eventually, but it takes a while to, it takes a while for me to warm up and trust men, especially.
00:46:30
Speaker
Same.
00:46:31
Speaker
No, I'm the exact same way.
00:46:32
Speaker
I totally get that.
00:46:33
Speaker
And he gets that too, actually.
00:46:34
Speaker
And that's the thing, like that actually was what kind of made me like him was like, you know, I think it's really hot when men respect my boundaries.
00:46:40
Speaker
And when he respected my boundaries, I was like, that's hot.
00:46:42
Speaker
Like, yeah.
00:46:44
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:46:45
Speaker
But anyways, so I don't know, Rhoda, do you have any other questions about like the stalking or about?
00:46:50
Speaker
Well, did we go through all the solutions you guys wanted to get through about
Concluding Advice on Tracking Apps and Phone Security
00:46:53
Speaker
how to protect ourselves?
00:46:53
Speaker
Because that was the talking point five.
00:46:55
Speaker
So we had the tracking app, the app that can show the track, the things that are tracking you.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yeah, honestly, I think that's really our main solution.
00:47:01
Speaker
If you have an iPhone, keep it up to date so that you get the latest anti-tracking algorithm from Apple.
00:47:07
Speaker
And if you have an Android phone, download AirGuard.
00:47:11
Speaker
It's free in the App Store.
00:47:12
Speaker
And if there's any updates, download the update.
00:47:14
Speaker
I think from a cybersecurity perspective, staying up to date is probably one of the best ways to protect yourself just in general, because you get like the latest and greatest of whatever the algorithm is and maybe things have been patched that were broken.
00:47:27
Speaker
Cool.
00:47:27
Speaker
Thanks, ladies.
00:47:28
Speaker
So you will be launching your Her Hacks podcast early next year.
00:47:33
Speaker
So we're going to launch in October.
00:47:35
Speaker
Projected.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:37
Speaker
Fingers crossed.
00:47:38
Speaker
Cool.
00:47:38
Speaker
So where can people find you in the meantime if they just want to follow you or?
00:47:41
Speaker
We're on Twitter.
00:47:42
Speaker
For some reason, we're on Instagram.
00:47:43
Speaker
So it's just like at Her Hacks podcast.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, all social media platforms.
00:47:49
Speaker
And then we have a website as well.
00:47:51
Speaker
HerHacksPodcast.com.
00:47:52
Speaker
Cool.
00:47:53
Speaker
So we're really excited.
00:47:53
Speaker
We're looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say.
00:47:55
Speaker
Because this is a really important field of interest, especially for women, because of the fact that there's so much technology out there.
00:48:02
Speaker
It's hard to wade through it.
00:48:03
Speaker
It's hard to understand what the risks are whenever you use it.
00:48:06
Speaker
And some of the jargon, I think, is difficult for people to grasp, even if they do get the information.
00:48:12
Speaker
So we're really looking forward to hearing this.
00:48:13
Speaker
So thanks for reaching out to us, because I think this would be such a great synergy between what we do and what you guys do.
00:48:18
Speaker
So thank you guys for fighting the good fight.
00:48:20
Speaker
And cybersecurity.
00:48:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:22
Speaker
And thanks for reaching out to us.
00:48:24
Speaker
That was awesome.
00:48:25
Speaker
It's a thankless job.
00:48:27
Speaker
We're starting to see that.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:30
Speaker
Well, we are now grateful.
00:48:31
Speaker
Like you're raising our awareness so that we can now be more grateful.
00:48:34
Speaker
So thank you.
00:48:35
Speaker
Awesome.
00:48:35
Speaker
Cool.
00:48:36
Speaker
So that's our show.
00:48:37
Speaker
You can find us on Twitter at fem.strat and on Instagram at underscore the female dating strategy and on our website.
00:48:45
Speaker
If you want to talk about this episode at www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com and if you want to listen to weekly bonus content, go to patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
00:48:55
Speaker
Thanks for listening, Queens, and for all you stalker scrotes out there.
00:48:58
Speaker
Rebecca and Christine are on the case.
00:49:00
Speaker
Die mad.
00:49:01
Speaker
See you next week.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:04
Speaker
See you next week, guys.