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The Healing Power of Movement: Overcoming Addiction and Trauma (feat. Michael Chernow)
189 Plays11 months ago
***WARNING DISCUSSION OF SUICIDE***
Welcome to another episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast! In today's episode, we sit down with the inspiring Michael Chernow, a man whose journey from seeking attention from his father to finding safety and healing through movement and fatherhood is nothing short of remarkable. Michael shares his deeply personal experiences, from battling depression and substance abuse to the transformative impact of movement on his mental health and overall well-being. Join us as we delve into the power of movement, the importance of being present for our children, and the profound impact of seeking help and making positive transformations. This episode is packed with valuable insights that will not only resonate with dads but with anyone navigating their own journey of healing and growth. So grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and get ready for an insightful and thought-provoking conversation.
Michael Chernow is a hardworking entrepreneur, father, and husband. Despite his busy schedule, he always makes time for his loved ones. With a successful career in the restaurant and hospitality industry, he is dedicated to his work but always looks forward to coming home to his family. Life may be intense, but Michael knows the value of balancing work and family, and always makes time for both.
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Transcript
Introduction: Movement as a Life-Saver
00:00:00
Speaker
I'll just say it straight up, movement saved my life. I battled with depression as a kid, and then that depression sort of manifested itself into an addiction. I was totally in the throes of substance abuse from the age of 12 to about 23.
Podcast Overview & Mental Health Focus
00:00:19
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:38
Speaker
Michael, Michael, welcome to the show, man. I'm so stoked that you're on, decided to be on and to be part of this conversation and to jump on the podcast of therapy for dads. Before we jump into the topic though, like how's your day going? Where are you at right now? Where am I at? My day is winding down.
00:00:53
Speaker
It has been a pretty intense day so far. I was on a red eye, lots of turbulence, landed at 615 in the morning, got to my car in New York City, drove two and a half hours up to my office in Hudson, New York. And I've been working all day on the computer and I took a nice little walk at this afternoon.
00:01:15
Speaker
And I've been looking forward to this conversation to sort of end cap my
Fatherhood & Family Dynamics
00:01:19
Speaker
workday. And then I'm going to go home and see my wife and kids that I haven't seen in 48 hours. I'm excited to see them. Yeah. And I bet they are too to see dad come home, right? I hope so. You know, how are they greeting you these days when they haven't seen you in all your kids? Are they like, dad, dad's home and running a jump and hug you or what are they doing?
00:01:36
Speaker
You know, well, if it's longer than a just if it's like a normal day at work, they don't they don't run to the door and scream daddy, daddy, daddy. But if it's longer than day, I get a grand welcome. It's lots of dad, lots of dad. I missed you. I love you. Big hugs, big kisses. And then they always say, what did you bring home for us?
00:01:58
Speaker
So there's a, okay. So there's a, uh, uh, yeah. And they're looking for, they're looking for presents. There's, you know, they're looking for presents. There's something. So you've developed a, what's the, a ritual, right? A return when you've been gone longer than a day. Well, you know, I, I would say every three times I come home with some kind of, you know, gift for them and they would love it if it was every time, but you know, nice.
00:02:20
Speaker
Well, yeah, you've had a long 48 hours and I'm stoked for you as a dad as well for you to be able to get home to your family. But you said something earlier and those that don't know, we met through social media. I've touted this on social media. There's a lot of things that I think are not so healthy in social media for different reasons, but a lot of cool things is meeting incredible people like Michael.
Therapeutic Movement & Recovery
00:02:42
Speaker
reaching out and connecting and seeing that other people care about men and fathers and want to help from their area of expertise and their own story and so something you said which is the topic of today is that you went for you went for a walk after some of your work day and then sat down for this conversation and so that walk is movement and that is the topic of today the power of of movement of physical movement
00:03:07
Speaker
So can you talk a bit about your journey on this idea of movement? Can you tell us about that? Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I'll just say it straight up. Movement saved my life. I battled with depression as a kid, and then that depression sort of manifested itself into an addiction to... I basically... I was...
00:03:30
Speaker
totally in the throes of substance abuse from the age of 12 to about 23. And, you know, and at first that, you know, that that the discovery for me at a young age was probably saved my life, actually, because it was something that I can actually dive into. I felt safer. I felt safer in my own skin when I found drugs and alcohol. And for a while, it worked really well. And then it didn't, you know, and then it became a real problem.
00:03:59
Speaker
What helped me come out of that about 19 years ago, I'll be celebrating 19 years in recovery in about a week and a half, I was introduced to movement, to fitness. I mean, obviously, I was introduced to a community of people in the world of recovery. So I owe my life to that really, first and foremost, right? Like, I think community is a very, very big deal for anybody struggling with anything. Good or bad, you can find communities in bad places too, you know, that
00:04:29
Speaker
tends to be somewhat of a thing. But community in opening doors for me has been sort of typically a first step, right? Like finding a community of people that you can identify with. And that ultimately was the sober community for me when I first made the decision to change.
Substance Abuse and Recovery Journey
00:04:50
Speaker
And then very quickly, I was introduced to a couple of guys who were passionate about movement. And they said, all right, man, you're 23 years old. You got a lot of life left ahead of you. We're going to teach you a new way to live. And it really involved fitness and nutrition. And then ultimately, mindfulness practices, spirituality, stuff like that. But it really did start with movement for me.
00:05:12
Speaker
I would just tell anybody listening to the podcast or it doesn't matter if addiction or if that's not part of your story. I strongly believe in my heart of hearts that movement, it might not be the absolute solution, but I could guarantee you from my experience that movement is certainly part of the story of freedom.
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah. And hearing that bit of your story, you know, briefly that where you came from, that even, you know, a little sidestep that even finding the use of addiction things was a way where you found safety at 12. And that was kind of, you found my guess is a community of people or something doing that, which enabled you to have some sense of agency and control from an environment that wasn't so safe.
00:05:59
Speaker
And hearing it said that way, you don't hear that very often of people framing it that way of, actually I felt safer here than I did here. And then through that story, obviously we come to movement, but can you speak a little bit about that, kind of that safety in the addiction or versus how it was, whether your other environments, like a little bit more about that?
00:06:16
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. You know, so I think, you know, I had some I had a pretty traumatic childhood that involved a very, very challenging relationship with my father. My father was, you know, he wasn't diagnosed because he didn't he never went to a facility that would have diagnosed him. He refused to go into any kind of treatment. But my father was was most likely bipolar. And then as he got older, I believe paranoid schizophrenic.
00:06:44
Speaker
His sister is paranoid schizophrenic in her 70s. She had a nervous breakdown and she is basically dealing with a severe case of schizophrenia.
Trauma, Addiction, and Turning Points
00:06:56
Speaker
And so I think that my father probably had similar mental health stuff, but unfortunately,
00:07:03
Speaker
He was not on any medication for it and it was projected pretty much onto me. And so my father and I fought a lot from when I was a very young kid. And so, you know, I did not feel safe in my own home. I did not feel safe in my own home. I was an escape artist from as early as I can remember. I was always trying to stay at my friend's houses. And then, you know, when I was 12 years old, I really wanted to get his attention. I did not want to die.
00:07:27
Speaker
But I wanted to make a big enough, I wanted to throw my flag in the ground that I wanted attention and help. And so I cut my wrists in front of my father. And I didn't get the response that I was hoping for. He kicked the shit out of me. And then at that point, the child services were involved. And, you know, I was admitted to pain when you mental institution in New York City to get evaluated. And I told them emphatically that like, this was not
00:07:54
Speaker
This was not me trying to commit suicide. This is me trying to tell my father like I've had enough and I want love from you and I'm not getting it and maybe this'll shake the tree enough to have you give me a hug and tell me you love me, but ultimately it didn't. And so I kind of, I was really sad. I was a sad, it was a sad time in my life and I found a group of kids that were a little bit older than me
00:08:21
Speaker
And there, you know, I had already been smoking cigarettes at that point and they were smoking weed and then very quickly doing other drugs that I honestly, I felt like holy smokes. Wait, I don't have to think about this part of my life all the time now.
00:08:36
Speaker
Now I can actually, like, it was a self-medication, you know? Yeah, it was relieving for sure. Because not only did I feel a relief from my own mental, from my own thoughts, but I also was with people that were also medicating, you know, and it was fun for everyone. And it was a lot of kids that were struggling that had, you know, tough home situations. And so for, you know, probably five or six years, it was like, it really did a good job.
00:09:04
Speaker
I'm not I'm not trying to promote it. No, no. And what I'm hearing is it helped you survive. Like you said, it got it got you to I'm not hearing promotion. What I'm hearing is a kid looking for something outside of threat and harm and found it in which happens in your case in another community and happen to be also using drugs, which
00:09:24
Speaker
The reality is it does have elation and euphoria, so that's gonna feel much better and distract from all the pain. So that makes, to me, as a, not just as a person, yes, I'm also a therapist, but as a person, it makes sense that my heart goes out. Like, yeah, I can only imagine a 12-year-old kid, like, what do you do? Like, I gotta get out of here. So this feels better. So to me, it makes sense. I'm not hearing you promoted at all, man. I'm hearing this authenticity of like, this is what it did for me at the time, and I needed something. And this community provided something that I needed that I wasn't getting here.
00:09:54
Speaker
that I should have had. So, yeah, I can't even imagine. Like that's, yeah, you found something. Yeah, I found it and it worked and I hung my hat on it for a while. And then unfortunately it stopped working, you know, it stopped working in that, but at that point I was already relying on it.
00:10:10
Speaker
And so, you know, it's kind of like, you know, imagine, you know, walking with a cane for five, six years that really helped, you know, kept you up, kept you up. Like you knew you lean on that cane and you weren't going to fall. That cane was holding you up and you were like, oh, thank God, I've got this cane. I, you know, I've been falling for a while. Now I got the cane to hold me up. And then all of a sudden, five years in, the cane just stops holding you up, you know? And so you still have the cane because you think it's still going to hold you up, but really you just keep
Catalyst for Change: Rock Bottom to Recovery
00:10:39
Speaker
falling.
00:10:39
Speaker
and falling. And that was kind of like what it felt like after, you know, in my late teens and early twenties. You know, it was the cane didn't work anymore. I found a bigger cane. The bigger cane didn't work anymore. And, you know, it was it was a do or die.
00:10:54
Speaker
period of time for about three years for me where I was really struggling with trying to come out of that lifestyle and I knew that I knew that it was you know friends of mine were dying around me and I knew that it was like it wasn't an if it was a when or change and so I got very lucky and it's so interesting you know I was actually writing a blog post about
00:11:18
Speaker
Because this time of year for me, between July 20th and August 2nd, this was the darkest few weeks of my life 19 years ago. This was like the bottom of the barrel. This is when it was hot in New York City. I was hopeless. I had zero respect for myself, zero self-care, self-love.
00:11:42
Speaker
At the same time, zero interest in anything aside from myself. So it was like unbelievable selfishness, but with zero self-esteem. And it was a really hard time. So I get a little kind of funky right now, just in general, because I do kind of go back there. And I'm like, wow, the guy that you're talking to right now is the same human being as that person was, but like worlds of different character traits today.
00:12:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, with that said, I appreciate you even having this conversation during this kind of anniversary, so to speak. It's a funky time because there is a fair amount of reflection, but it's not actually a hard time. It's a real time of gratitude for me. I really get deep into
00:12:31
Speaker
reflection, but also it, the ramifications of that reflection is immense gratitude for what I've, where I know I was. It's not like it's not a story that I've written. It really happened and to where I am now. Right. And so I guess the, the, the, the, the message there is holy smokes. Anyone can change. That's a powerful message. Anyone can change. Yeah.
00:12:56
Speaker
And so with that, I'm wondering, you're in this dark phase 19 years ago and you're painting a very visceral picture, hot in New York. I mean, I was even getting a sense of like, okay, you're struggling. And so how did you get from there to getting into, you know, cause you got to movement, but there was, you did some other movement to get to the movement that we're going to, that you're going to talk more about, but how did you get from that point to,
00:13:20
Speaker
Like, what did something click? Like what happened of that shift of view of like, I need to now get, get help or do something different. Cause what I'm doing isn't working. Yeah. I mean, look, you know, I had, I had been playing this tape in my head for a while at this point, right? Like it was like, all right, man, you're going to either like the, you know, the conversation in my head was basically like, all right, man, is today going to be the day or are you going to take another risk? You know, like, Oh, is today going to be the day or are you going to run the risk of losing it all or die? You know, like.
00:13:47
Speaker
And so that tape was kind of on repeat in my head at this time, 19 years ago. I knew that it was a very pivotal moment. It was either I was going to OD and die because I had already OD'd and it was very close, or I was going to make the change. And it was Monday, August 2nd.
Fitness and Mental Health Transformation
00:14:07
Speaker
Not very different than most days that I, you know, most days I'd be up until eight o'clock in the morning from the night before, you know, on drugs and alcohol with people. This day happened to be, I think it was like a 48 hour run. I was not ready to stop. I knew I had work. I worked in a restaurant, so I had work that Monday. And the guys that I was with had said, we're calling it a night.
00:14:35
Speaker
and I wasn't ready to call it, but they left and I made my way. We were on the roof of my apartment building. I made my way down to my apartment and I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror. I was disgusted with myself. The thought of suicide really was very, very prevalent in my mind at that
00:14:53
Speaker
moment. I remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom contemplating like what would be a dramatic way to go out so that people would feel bad for me or people would feel for me. I wanted people to feel for me. You know, I hadn't had that in a long time. And I passed out. I passed out.
00:15:12
Speaker
And I passed out for 16 hours. I slept right through work. I woke up late that night. It was probably 8 o'clock in the morning. So it was probably whatever it was, 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning the next day. And I knew that was it. That was it. I knew I had lost my job. I was positive that I was going to lose my job. My boss actually at the time was integral in helping me get sober. He fired me and then he made me an ultimatum about getting sober. And I knew that it was coming.
00:15:41
Speaker
So I had you know, I had that I was disgusted with myself but I knew and there was like this little moment of grace where I just I felt like I had the courage to go and ask for help and so I called the right person and the right person was dating one of the two guys that would really come to my rescue and help me find a life of better and I reached out to Karen and
00:16:06
Speaker
she was sober she was like an older sister to me who had taken me in but she was also an addict and an alcoholic for years and you know but she had introduced she called her boyfriend Marcus at the time and said hey I've got a friend who really could use some help and so he came to my apartment showed up and I had you know we had that morning went out for a cup of coffee and he said you gotta go to you gotta you gotta
00:16:27
Speaker
You got to go to a meeting, man. You got to. I'm not going to tell you that there's an easy way here. You're just going to have to succumb. And I did. And he saw that I was doing it. And so he started to spend more time with me. And then he took me to a Muay Thai kickboxing gym. He was a competitive Muay Thai fighter. And he said, this is the deal, man. And it was him and this other guy Gavin.
00:16:52
Speaker
And they were both like 10 years older than me. But for whatever reason, these guys took a liking to me and I got very lucky. I was the beneficiary of their kindness and I was also ready. I was ready, right? Like there's no, they didn't do, they didn't force me to do anything. They didn't make me do anything. I was ready for receiving what they had to offer at that time in my life. And I was lucky for that.
00:17:17
Speaker
Because I can't remember another time when I felt I was ready like I was then. And so I can't tell you exactly what it was that made me feel that courage or have the courage. But I will tell you that it was impossible without some courage. And they said, all right, so this is what you're going to do. You're going to wake up.
00:17:36
Speaker
as early as you can and that can be five o'clock in the morning or that can be nine o'clock in the morning but we just want you to wake up as early as you can and the first thing you're gonna do is you're gonna ask the universe for help that could be God that could be Jesus that could be Allah that could be whatever you want it to be but you're just gonna ask for help because you don't know how to ask for help you haven't been able to ask for help in a long time so if you can ask for help
00:17:58
Speaker
first thing in the morning from a power that you can't describe, that could be a great way to get you into the habit of asking for help from others. So you ask for help first thing in the morning, then you're gonna go for a walk or a run. Ideally, you're taking a jog. That jog could be a block. It could be two blocks. It could be a mile. It could be 10 miles. But we want you to pray, and then we want you to go take a run. And then when you're done with that run, we want you to have a big fat bowl of oatmeal.
00:18:22
Speaker
And then we want you to go to a meeting and, and, and, you know, start connecting with other people in recovery and then come straight to the gym and we're going to kick your ass and we're going to teach you how to be, how to be, uh, had to have some integrity and some, we're going to start to help you build confidence and we're going to teach you how to get knocked down, but, but get back up and, and, and then.
00:18:41
Speaker
you're gonna have lunch, and you're gonna go home, you're gonna take a nap, and then you're gonna go to work, and you're gonna work, and you're gonna try to go to bed as early as you can, and you're gonna rinse and repeat, and you can do that over and over and over again. And that's what started my journey, and I became obsessed with being better. And it really did, you know, the beauty of movement is it's something that you can control, and once you make the decision to do it,
00:19:08
Speaker
You've won.
Present Fatherhood & Childhood Reflections
00:19:09
Speaker
You've won already. Once you've made the decision to do it, you've won. So even if you make the decision and you get out there and you don't go as far as you had planned to go, you've won because you've accomplished something that you committed to.
00:19:24
Speaker
be it even just for, you know, a short term commitment, you said this is something I'm going to do, you go do it. Now you've committed, that's a win. And it feels good. And ultimately, those that commitment just grew and grew and grew for me. And you know, I ended up competing in Muay Thai, I ended up running marathons, I was
00:19:42
Speaker
I became passionate about bodybuilding and I became a pro bodybuilder. So movement is a massive part of my mental health medicine. It is my mental health medicine, along with a lot of self-development work that I've done over the years and obviously the community in recovery, I'm nothing without my recovery, my sobriety.
00:20:06
Speaker
It really kicked off everything that you had this moment. And I've heard stories too that, you know, we always try to identify what was that moment. But a couple things that set up to me was, one, you got to this place of readiness, whatever that looked like, and it's different for every person. And then you had people around you that was, I think, key, that you had someone to call, and then they met you where you were. And that set up to me in your story.
00:20:27
Speaker
And then you began basic movement and doing little things, little changes and consistency, creating a habit and did that over and over and over again. And that was kind of the beginning. And it sounds like your movement, it started in one way, but now it's expanded in so many different ways from 19 years ago to who Michael is today. And now for a short break.
00:20:51
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:21:08
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:21:23
Speaker
And so I'm wondering with movement, how has movement, you know, looking at your journey from how you started and you kind of sprinkled in some other things you've been doing now. And I'm wondering how is, what does movement do maybe specifically for you as a man from day to day? How does it impact you as a father? You know, and how do you, how does it help you navigate and take care of your kind of holistic mental health?
Biological Necessity of Movement
00:21:47
Speaker
That's not necessarily mental illness, but your health, your level of health. What are you seeing it practically day to day do for you?
00:21:52
Speaker
Well, I think if you really peel it back and sort of try to understand some core primal accomplishments or acknowledgments for hundreds of thousands, however long we've been standing on two feet, we were designed to move. We were not designed to sit. We were not designed to be sedentary beings. We were designed to move.
00:22:18
Speaker
Right? Like it's just that simple. And so we, for thousands of years, we correlate movement to life. Right? Like if you didn't move 50,000 years ago, you're dead. You're going to get eaten by the saber-toothed tigers.
00:22:34
Speaker
And so there's a real sort of this mental that has been ingrained, I believe, and this is sort of like a philosophy of mine, but I've really tried to understand and dissect why the dopamine serotonin is so strong on a run, for instance. Why do I feel a sense of euphoria almost?
00:22:56
Speaker
the thought of going for a run. So that's the dopamine building, building up the anticipation of like, okay, I'm going to go for this run. It's going to be a five, five mile run, starting to feel my body begins a nervous system, you know, kicks on borderline fight or flight. You know, you're in that spot and then you're there and then you're out and you're doing it. And
00:23:18
Speaker
You've won. You're in the act of running. For me, that's one of my favorite ways to move. And it's a primal feeling of joy. I think it's something that has been hardwired into our makeup to want to move and appreciate what that movement does for us, even biologically.
00:23:42
Speaker
And so I think there's not only a science component to it, but there's also an ego, esteem component to it. And the ego could also be what prevents us from going. The ego could be like, you don't need to do that. No, you've already done it. You've done enough today. You've worked hard. You've got a lot of email.
00:24:06
Speaker
That could be the ego in your way. And then, you know, for me, what's really sort of kicked my ego in the butt because my ego is definitely not something that I want to completely get rid of because I do, you know, I think ego does carry some weight in the positive life that I lead today. But, you know, for years, my ego really did try to suppress my ability to push as hard as I felt like I needed to push to accomplish what I wanted to get.
00:24:31
Speaker
sometimes my ego would tell me you know that that's that other voice that says like you don't have to it's okay you know you can have that you deserve that you deserve that extra scoop of of chocolate you know smooth tracks so you know i think i think uh movement weighs so so so heavy on my mental
00:24:55
Speaker
health, you know? And I can tell you that for sure because I am dealing with a case of sciatica right now that I've been dealing with for six, seven weeks. It's gotten a lot better. I could thank gosh for that.
Practical Movement Tips for Mental Clarity
00:25:09
Speaker
But it's taken me out. I have not been able to move like I like to move. I have not gone on a run in almost two months. I am not lifting heavy weights, which I love to do. It's put me in a position as to really, really like do some
00:25:24
Speaker
searching and some, hey man, it's really powerful how much movement means to me. As a man, a father, I'm a better person when I'm consistently moving. I just am. And I'm not saying that now in the last six weeks I've been a bad dude, but I'm here to say that
00:25:44
Speaker
And it's kind of, it's been a really interesting time for me in this, because I'm totally, I've come to terms with this idea that like, hey man, it's amazing when you can do it. You need to be unbelievably grateful for the many, many years you've had being able to do whatever you want in movement. But it's also, your body is right now telling you something as well, which is, it's also okay to slow down, man. It sounds like wisdom is kicking in. Yeah, basically.
00:26:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's okay to slow down slow is also fast, bro. And that's where and that's where I'm at. So I've been going. It's been a it's been a very interesting time for me because you know, I trained five, six days a week. It's how I've lived my life for a long time. And now I'm not. And you know, I haven't lost all the muscle that I've been building. I haven't gotten, you know, I haven't put on 25 pounds of fat.
00:26:36
Speaker
With the wisdom you have now, what do you do now, and maybe some practical things for dads listening or the ladies listening too, because they might say, oh, maybe my husband can do this. If you can't move as much, what else do you do to kind of help your health, internal health, emotional, mental health, when you can't have that same level? What do you do now to kind of supplement or add into, or that you do? Well, so something that I think is really, really important to mention. So,
00:27:04
Speaker
You know, I'm an athlete, right? I have fallen in love with athletics and that's certainly not for everyone. Walking is arguably one of the greatest forms of movement, if not the greatest all-time form of movement, honestly.
00:27:22
Speaker
Walking is something that when you live in a metropolitan, geographically metropolitan setting, walking is a lot easier to do than if you live in the suburbs or if you live in a rural part of the country. That said, just because it's not easy doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And so I live in a rural part of the country now. I live in upstate New York.
00:27:44
Speaker
I can't walk from my house to my office or to the gym. I have to intentionally schedule a 45-minute walk into my day every day, if not more, because I really do love walking. I get very, very similar outcomes for my mental health by just walking 45 minutes as I could in the gym, getting after it for an hour.
00:28:10
Speaker
And so for anybody listening that's like, yeah, well, I don't lift weights or I don't run marathons. If you got out, if you don't walk right now, if walking is just not part of your life, you walk from your house, your front door to your car, your car to the office, your office back to the car, the car back to your house, if that is the extent of your walking,
00:28:36
Speaker
I would put almost everything I own on the fact that if you started walking for a half an hour a day and you did that five days a week, the space that you would create in between your own two ears, the mental clarity, the space, the freedom that you would create would be unbelievable. You wouldn't believe it in just 30 minutes of walking a day, five days a week, if you're not walking right now.
00:28:59
Speaker
And so it is a very powerful tool. It's a very powerful tool. And accessible. And it's cheap. It doesn't cost a lot. It's not like it's a lot of money to go outside and walk for half an hour. Some of the research would say that, just as you pointed out, that walking does provide a lot of time to
00:29:17
Speaker
clear your head and reflect and almost problem-solve too. There's a technique of like just go outside and walk for 10-15 minutes, even that, just to like get out of it and start to come down. For example, if you're having maybe a heated moment with your kids or your spouse or something and you're kind of getting frustrated, just go and leave and walk. Come back in 10-15 minutes. It's amazing what you would come back to almost, you said it, you're regulating your nervous system, coming down and get some clarity to be like, okay, I'm cooled off. I can now think a little more rationally and be more collected and kind of use my inner wisdom to make a
Non-Verbal Communication with Children
00:29:45
Speaker
better decision. You need to be more effective.
00:29:46
Speaker
I had a, I actually, I just have to say this. I had a really amazing conversation with a therapist, a child therapist on Wednesday, today's Friday. And we were, she was actually a guest on my podcast. And she said something to me that was so profound. She said that our children at a young age, infant age,
00:30:11
Speaker
are reading our nervous system. They're reading our, they're incredibly sensitive to our nervous system. I had never heard it explained that way. But it makes total sense that they're not able to communicate. So one of their senses is really sort of eliminated.
00:30:32
Speaker
And so they're highly adaptive in other ways because they're beings, they're alive, right? And so their ability to pick up on our body language, I think she said the amygdala. What is that part of the brain? Yeah, the amygdala, which is the brain. Yeah. Is constantly scanning cues of threat or safety. Exactly.
00:30:56
Speaker
And I was like, wow, like that description, because it's so interesting and I don't ever, I mean, I'm a father of two kids, right? But I've also had dogs my whole life for the most part. And dogs, you know, if you ever listened to like Cesar Millan, you know, his whole thing is controlling of your posture and your mannerisms and your gestures. In other words, your nervous system.
00:31:25
Speaker
How calm are you in leading your animal? Because anxiety, any sign of that is going to ultimately, it's contagious. It literally, they communicate like someone else's nervous system is going to very, very quickly respond to what your nervous system is dealing with. And I was like blown away by that.
00:31:47
Speaker
But skips verbal because that part of our brain our vagal vagal nerve which kind of guns from the bottom of our brain stem down into our heart and back again which controls controls our nervous system states sympathetic parasympathetic states fight flight then it's always you're right it's always scanning and it's not necessarily the length now language can
00:32:03
Speaker
modify, but before language, it's tone, body's postured, it's a felt sense, it's kind of in the gut and the body, and so you read the room, and so just like Caesar, Molly, and the dog, same thing, they pick it up, and you don't have to even say a word. Words add, like I said, they can add color or shape, which is why your kids pick up everything, the good, the bad, the ugly, whether you want them to or not,
00:32:27
Speaker
whether you try and shield them or not, they're gonna pick it up. So it's not like a, don't, I'm saying this not to freak out, like, oh my gosh, my kids are picking everything up, scratched up from your head. It's not like you have to be so hyper wear because then you're gonna be anxious. But it's more about, are you calm?
Work-Life Balance & Presence
00:32:41
Speaker
Are you collected? Because if you come home from a stressful work day and you walk in the door and you see your kids and you're stressed out, they're gonna pick that up. Now, they may not be able to say it with language, dad, you're stressed.
00:32:50
Speaker
but they're gonna pick it up, it's gonna impact their nervous system to some degree, cause they're gonna have a felt sense of you walking in the room. And so with you, when you have those moments with your kids, I'm wondering with that awareness, like when you have an awareness and maybe you're stressed out or having a hard time and you come in and you're at home with your family, anything you do that kind of resets you in the moment, like a quick thing or a couple of things that you help you kind of reset and kind of get back to a grounded space? Big time, big time.
00:33:15
Speaker
I can't say I do it every day, but I would say probably three to four days a week because it's not every day that I feel like I'm coming home with a with a with an intensity or an anxiety that I'm not happy with, but they're, you know, work energy.
00:33:31
Speaker
I'm the CEO of my company. I mean, there's a lot of things that I'm constantly juggling, although I've gotten way better at understanding that I can't get it all done in a day. So like, I don't take on all that anxiety as much as I used to. But every day I get my car,
00:33:48
Speaker
at around 5.20 at my office, which is about 20 minutes from my house, 25 minutes from my house, and I drive home. And right as I get to my driveway, I pull my car in enough so that if the kids are running around up at the house, they don't see me, but enough so that I don't get hit by cars coming down my road. I pull into the driveway and I shut my car off.
00:34:09
Speaker
and I take a deep breath, I close my eyes and I do a breath work practice because about a year and a half ago I did not have any sort of transitional habits from work to family, work to father, husband, life because they're very different energies or at least I'd like them to be very different energies and a lot of fathers, mothers don't
00:34:33
Speaker
actually have a boundary there or separate that energy. And it's I think it's really important to do that. And I didn't know that until my son taught me an invaluable lifelong lesson. And I walked into the house, I was pretty stressed out. I had my phone in my hand just like this. And I was I was on an email. And I was trying to get this email out before dinner. And I knew I was stressing.
00:34:54
Speaker
And my son was talking to me, and he was trying to say, hey, dad, hey, dad. And I just walked into the house. My son was excited to see me. And I had that energy. And I looked at him, and I said, don't you see I'm doing something? And I caught myself in that moment where my son, you know, children of all age, I don't think it ever ends, right? My sons want two things in the world. That's it, really. They want the attention from my wife and my attention.
00:35:22
Speaker
They want me to see them. That's all they want. They want our attention. They want to feel our love, really, when you really boil it down. And so for me, I had this flash in my head. I was like, oh my God, the one thing that my son wants.
00:35:39
Speaker
I'm not giving him because I'm caught up in a fucking email. Are you serious, Michael? Are you serious? How could you possibly think that's OK? And that was the last time that happened. So now I have a transition period in the driveway where I do some breath work. And that breath work typically is either.
00:35:59
Speaker
five rounds of box breathing, or five rounds, depending on how intense the stress is, because sometimes, you know, I come home with anxiety, especially this year was a really hard year for me at work, like I could feel the anxiety in my chest. And I'll have to do a bit more of an intense breath work cycle, which is like this double inhale, long slow exhale, and I'll do that five to 10 times. And if I still feel a little above ground,
00:36:25
Speaker
with, you know, I will do both of those exercises together. And sometimes it takes three minutes, sometimes it takes 10. But I will ground myself and get back to baseline before I get into that house. And as soon as I'm in there, my phone is on airplane mode, and it's face down on the kitchen counter. And I don't pick it up for two and a half hours until they're asleep.
00:36:48
Speaker
I thank you for that, the very practical breath work and I, yeah, I know those breath work exercises, I do them as well and I teach them to most if not all my clients. And I think it's so practical that taking that extra, you know, three minutes can make a world of difference when you walk in that home, you know, three to five, which is not that much time to kind of ground yourself.
00:37:07
Speaker
but I think the thing I heard that really stood out to me and I'm hearing your story is that you had in a realization with your son that maybe triggered your own you tell me I'm just guessing here hypothetically but not hypothetically but I'm getting a sense that in a way that what you needed from your father when you're staying in that room after you cut your wrists you needed his attention maybe that part of you got you felt that pain when your son needed you on the email 100%
00:37:31
Speaker
ripped open naturally for me. Because what I wanted from my father is just him to be present and to like be present and have his attention. And I'm doing this and I'm not doing that. And what shifted for you is now the beautiful thing is you heard that message loud and clear and you're like, no, I'm present with my kids. I'm going to give the gift of presence in a way healing that part of myself, that child that needed it from my father and giving it to them. And I get to see that every day of giving that and seeing the impact it has on my kids' lives.
00:38:01
Speaker
wow yeah that's powerful yeah i mean when i when i really when i really open the floodgates you know i wanted my father's approval yeah i never got it he's dead you know um i never got it but but i battled with a lot of things you know and even you know i mean i'm
00:38:21
Speaker
I'm the founder of a number of companies, I've sold companies, I've built companies, I've done a lot of things. And I honestly, there is, I have a drive and an ambition that was developed because I don't believe I'm ever going to get my father's approval. And so I need to constantly, and I'm aware of this, but I constantly am in pursuit of
Imagining Outcomes & Psychological Benefits
00:38:51
Speaker
better and you know, my father comes to visit me in my dreams and It's really interesting and I don't want to say this and like people be like, oh god, here we go But that's that that's that's actually the truth my I've had a number of conversations with my father in my dreams that have awarded me the approval that I've been after you know and When that happens, I journal about it and it's pretty cool. I
00:39:18
Speaker
What we do in EMDR is very similar to that. You imagine a different outcome, and that can have a very healing, powerful physiological effect on your body, on your mind, and on your soul. There's so many things we do, but essentially that sounds very, to me, like, again, I'm a trained clinician who does this, so I'm like, oh, that sounds like totally like kind of what I do, but anyone else might think, oh, this is like hocus pocus stuff, like, no, actually, the power of healing with the mind and body can do
00:39:41
Speaker
Whether it happened or not, the brain doesn't determine whether it's true or if you imagine it happening because your physiological response is the same.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yeah, I woke up very happy, you know, that that I had that conversation. And this actually this dream, I had a recent dream, which is really weird because I don't play golf. I got invited to go play around the golf that I had. I hadn't swung a golf club in 30 years. And the night before I went to play golf, I had a dream of my father. Now, it could be because I could it could be that I had a dream about my father and he had come and had a conversation with me and he told me how
00:40:18
Speaker
happy he was with my success but it could be that i was playing a game of golf and because it reminded me of him potentially that's that's why i had a dream about him who knows but i will tell you that i woke up and i felt like i had a conversation with my father who had been who's been dead for 22 years that went well
00:40:37
Speaker
And he told me he was happy with me. Yeah, it was a good chat. And it's amazing how the body can find healing. And as I'm thinking about this as we come to a close here, because I'm aware of the time, you know, your journey, you know, in the short time that we've had this conversation, the journey from a kid who desperately just wanted attention from his father, who got found a path to get out of it and find safety.
Movement's Role in Fatherhood & Service
00:40:59
Speaker
through a different type of movement, I would say, but still movement nonetheless, then found himself 19 years ago in a place of needing a different type of movement, found that coming all the way back to then that story of your son, of the recognition of what it really coming back to, like where it all started was just connection and attention from your parent, from your dad, from your mom, and then able to give that to your kid and be present and finding healing in that, that that
00:41:23
Speaker
That's what said to me is like, I read it, like, you know, put a book in on it. It's like, you know, you said yourself at the very beginning, movement save your life. And I would hearing the story, I'm like, yeah, I totally did. That movement got you not only saved your life, but got you to a place of giving your life away in a way that's powerful for your kids and a way healing them, that generational curse, whatever you want to call it, trauma from the past of like, you get to give such an amazing gift to your kids. So the one they're telling a story, maybe one day on a podcast, it'll be very different. No, my dad was there. He felt loved and connected to my father.
00:41:53
Speaker
And that's such an incredible gift, man. The cool thing about you just saying that the feeling that I just got is I'm confident that that's what they would say. I'm confident. I mean, they're going to say that they definitely lean on their mom for cuddling, even though I'm a good cuddler. But I am proud to say I'm a great father.
00:42:21
Speaker
And, um, I don't think anybody would have really put that on me after seeing what it was like in my, for my, in my childhood. And then ultimately what my teenage years and early twenties looked like. So even that piece, well, no, I mean, it's my greatest, it's my greatest accomplishment. What a way to end the show, man. Where can we find you where if people were looking to get, you know, you, you know, you're the CEO creatures of habit and some other things, where can people find your stuff?
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah, you can just find me on Instagram is really where I'm most active at Michael Chernow. I'm also pretty active on TikTok, but Instagram and TikTok really where I'm active, I share a lot about my life experience. I've gone through a couple of different journeys in the world of social media, but I made a decision a few years ago to really not focus as much on my fitness and nutrition stuff and really focus on sort of my mindset stuff because I,
00:43:14
Speaker
hope to be of service. Being of service has truly been where when I am in service, I am at my best. And so instead of trying to show people my APAC, you know what I mean, on social media, I share about stories that I think could potentially touch one person a day. And so that's what I've been doing on social. So you can check me out there
00:43:40
Speaker
creatures of habit is with a K. It's a company that I'm currently running. And you know, if you're in New York City and you want to grab a good bite to eat, you can go check out the meatball shop as a business I launched a bunch of years ago. And then if you feel like having a good fish taco, there's a bunch of restaurants called Seymour's in New York City. I'm a little far away to grab any of that food.
00:44:00
Speaker
If I ever am, I will stop by. Michael, man, it's been, I really appreciate your vulnerability and just strength and just sharing your story and the impact you're having and your heart and your, and your care and your, and your passion and just for being on here today, even though you had a long 48 hours, I appreciate it.
00:44:16
Speaker
So, blessings to you and your family and for a wonderful evening with your family. And if anyone looking for some inspiration, go check them out. Our links will be in the bio and the description. Everything to find him will be. They'll be clickable. And until then, man, have a great night. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.