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Fool Me Once, Shame on You, Fool Me Twice, Shame on Me
22 Plays18 hours ago
In this episode Patrick and Andrew discuss trust, caution, how to evaluate the veracity of information, and how to be a person that others can rely on.
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter eternal
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener just joining us for the first time, this show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying proverb or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom that's relevant today from these old sayings. I am your host Patrick Payne and with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you doing, buddy?
00:00:54
Speaker
Hey, I'm doing all right. ah yeah I got a question for you though. yeah Do you do you do that like that little intro just from memory these days? I do. like yeah what see there There you go, the the consummate salesman. You got a good memory. I've been doing it for maybe for a long time now.
00:01:10
Speaker
i and I suspected so, but yeah, I'm okay. I'm impressed. that If you listen to the early episodes, which please don't, like, don't go back and listen. Yeah, we kind of took ah several iterations to kind of get it a little intro smooth. It was like the same every time, but I pretty much say the same thing every time now. We got it. We do. Yeah. Yeah. Because for a while there you had like written down by but your monitor there and yep But yeah, all right. Well, yeah, that's it. he Got it. Ready to go. ah So how you how have you been apart from ah sick kids throwing up? Yeah. You're telling me off air? Yeah, just today's like the first day of ah fall for us, like properly, like a month late where it's you know been cloudy and rainy all day long. And yep it's you know it's been up into the 80s, up until now, this whole whole summer. I was telling my friend,
00:02:02
Speaker
you know, that we went straight from having like an Indian summer to an Apache summer. It just got brutal. yeah Just was not ending. um I was just so ready for fall. But so yeah, like this, the first day of summer or the first day of of of fall, might my kids, my my kids get sick. Like it's like, oh, as we go, but we're going to look forward to all winter now. It's just, for me yeah. for Our family seems like it's just the transition periods when usually that happens. So hopefully it's not all winter.
00:02:32
Speaker
But um did you guys get any snow on the mountains today? Yeah, there's there's some up up I could see on the on the peaks. Yeah. Because you're down in Utah County. I was up in den in Cash County today and there were some up and on the mountains there. so figured I don't know if there is any by us because it's just been so cloudy. It's been raining up here too in Idaho. and Yeah, took i can't see it took a while before we could see. Yeah. It took a while for it to clear out to to tell.
00:03:01
Speaker
yeah's thats But nice. i love i i would just I would stay outside all day if I could and in the rainy weather. I miss it. growing up in, growing up in it. So whenever, whenever I have a chance to get out there, take a yeah year walk with my dog. Pacific Northwest guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the fall weather too. We, we had stew for dinner and rolls and I'm like, yep, this is it. This it could just stay like this forever. I'd be, I'd be happy with it. So, but anyway, yeah, we got a good proverb this week. um This is one I picked.
00:03:37
Speaker
And I selected fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. This is kind of a common one that people know. did you What were your thoughts when I sent it over to you?
00:03:49
Speaker
you know i think Showing my age, I always think of the George Bush like misquote on this one. So I hear it. I don't even like necessarily hear it like in his voice when I hear it, but in like the voice of people imitating his voice, right? Like the Indians making fun of him or something. but yeah so because ah Let me see let me see what what he said exactly. I looked it up here.
00:04:15
Speaker
He said, there's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on you, fool me, you can't get fooled again. Just could not remember the second half of it, and it turned it into like a...
00:04:30
Speaker
you know, was it the who or like we don't get fooled again. first Yeah. So then there's of course, Michael Scott's version from the office. Oh yeah. He said, fool me once, strike one, fool me twice, strike three.
00:04:47
Speaker
So yeah, a lot of incorrect iterations of this one. Um, but yeah. ah Um, what thoughts on the, on the, on the actual proverb itself? Is that, one is this one that you use?
00:05:00
Speaker
It is, and it's I think it's a wonderful one. I think it's <unk> it's a good good proverb to live by that um it's not a foolproof one, but it's you know yeah anyone can make a mistake. Anyone can get fooled. it's So on that an aspect, like on the first half, it's good not to beat yourself up yep if you if you get fooled on something. But then the second half is, well, just make sure it doesn't happen again. you know Learn from it.
00:05:28
Speaker
So yeah, I think i think it's great. Yeah, I like this one for ah what you said. It's kind of a, a lot of proverbs can be kind of harsh with criticism of don't do this or that, but yeah, I hadn't really thought of that until you said it, but it's got kind of like ah a little bit of forgiveness in there. Like, Hey, you make a mistake. Someone gets you. It's that's on them. But if it's, if it's happening more than once, that's something you need to, you need to evaluate in yourself. So, um, did you, I looked up a little bit of the history of this one. Did you find anything?
00:06:01
Speaker
Um, I, I did. What did, what did you find? You you can, let me know. Okay. Um, I've heard it was various sources. Um, said 19th century British poem. Um, someone said that, but I couldn't find a where, I mean, I did find the George W. Bush, but yeah i know it's a lot older than that. The earliest kind of version I found was 1650.
00:06:30
Speaker
um A book about King James called The Court and Character of King James. And the phrase in that is, he that deceives me once, it's his fault, but if twice, it's my fault. So pretty close, but the sentiment at least is is is there. Yeah, that same kind of idea.
00:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, this one kind of brings to mind maybe like being cheated or swindled or something in business, right? If you get taken for a ride on some some sale or something like that. um But I think it can apply to more things than that. um It really speaks to kind of just just learning from from your mistakes, I think. is Is that kind of what you got from it? Yeah, definitely. um it's Yeah, I think that the...
00:07:22
Speaker
The most natural way that that people, I think, view it now is like business transactions, you know the the used car, the door-to-door salesman, or you know things like that. ah But yeah, I think overall, it's it is more broadly applicable to just making mistakes.
00:07:43
Speaker
um But yeah, I definitely thought of it first in the context of of sales and stuff so I was wondering like what you thought about that because because for me it's like okay you know I got burned by by one you know summer sales guy door to door and so I'm not gonna trust any of them ever again like it it's I think it it can lend itself to overreaction or but what what do you think ah being in sales like what do you think about about that
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's a ah tough part of being in sales is overcoming that kind of perception. um
00:08:27
Speaker
what I think it has a lot to do with the motivation of the you know the sales rep. You can kind of get it get a vibe for people who are, they call it like commission breath. They're only like consider, you know, yeah you can smell it on them. They they only care about their own commission, but but you know, it really just takes time to get to know a client and and Being in an industry where you're able to do that is so much nicer. like Being in an industry where you have to meet somebody, instantly convert them, make a sale, move on is really tough because they don't know you. they're You're trying to break through all their past you know stigmas or past experiences. Maybe they've had bad experiences. That's hard. Where if it's on a more consultative or like in my role, I cover a hundred and something clients in three different states.
00:09:13
Speaker
And, uh, I'll be here, you know, the last rep was here five years in this territory before they moved it around. So they knew him real well. They knew who he was, even the ones that don't buy from our company, like he would stop in periodically and drop off material or whatever. And they kind of see it, saw him and knew him. You know what I mean? So it's a lot easier when they kind of get to know you and and know that, uh, you know,
00:09:35
Speaker
Based on relationships people buy from people so so for sure this is this is one of those and um and people will Will can sometimes overdo it like you said and shut things off for good But I mean that that can happen in anything and that can happen in in relationships, right? you get You get dumped or you get burned or you get your heart broken or something and now you don't want to you think all women are scum. you know There are guys like that. you know and And so yeah, that can be a problem where people hang on to some perception forever. And yeah, like you have to be careful of that. But but to the point of the of the proverb, I mean, it's important to
00:10:13
Speaker
It's definitely important to learn from those mistakes and and and remember them, but not take it too far. I think that can answer your question. Yeah, it does. And, you know, I think about how this might have been applied to people centuries ago, where if you live in a small community, like a village or a small neighborhood, you know, a neighborhood that's everyone knows each other pretty well.
00:10:40
Speaker
where where this principle is a little more clear cut where you know you go to the to the grocer and he you know deals wrong with you. He's got crooked scales or something, right? And you know that like you might still have to only deal with that guy.
00:10:58
Speaker
like That might be your only option, but you know going forward that you need to keep an eye on him. you knew like and everyone And other people in town know that like people like because it is reputational, right? like People know because you're dealing with the same people over and over. It's like the the stranger who comes to town to to trade for one day and then keep going, that's you're kind of suspicious of that person because you're not going to see them again.
00:11:22
Speaker
But the people in town, you you really are foolish if you trust them. If they burn you once and you trust them again completely, then you really are foolish. It just means you need to keep an eye on them, but you still need to work with them. For sure. um And now we have much less of that where even if you go to the same grocery store,
00:11:42
Speaker
or something, you know you might not always see the same people. You might only see the same checker you know every couple of weeks. You just might never see the same same people. They don't have the same reputation at stake. um If you're dealing with like some big company, even if they you know you see them all the time, they're not the ones making the decisions.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, you just, it's a different world than when this was originally formulated. For sure, man. ah It's one of the things I love about living in a small town is we have one little grocery store, it's a family owned, like we hadn't been in a while and they were asking, they're like, oh, haven't seen you guys in a while, like where have you guys been? like and And, you know, it's like, just kind of... you know, that's a person we do business with all the time. And if if they were to do us dirty or or something like that, or if we, you know, I don't know how a grocery store would, but you know what I mean? It's just um it would definitely be ah more impactful because they're like a pillar of the community and everybody knows them. If they get a reputation that's bad, I mean, that's that's it that's the end for them because yeah like their currency is kind of like like trust and and, you know, being part of the community and
00:12:53
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah, it's it's tougher when things are so diffuse and spread out and technology is driving, you know, keeping, isolating people and putting them in little pods. My my daughter was just asking me who, who the Ted Kaczynski was today. I had to explain that to him. Like, well, he's kind of a terrorist killed some people and did some bad things. Like, but like he was kind of nuts. But he wrote some stuff that was kind of turned out to be a little bit a little bit prescient in a way. So, not you know, not justifying what he did, but he was actually an incredibly smart person that just kind of went off the rails and um kind of talked a little bit about how technology and some of the things he was concerned about did happen and and how ah how, you know, technology can separate people and make them not
00:13:37
Speaker
not feel human, you know? Yeah. um But yeah, like in addition to business, like I said, I think this applies in relationships too. I had a quote unquote, you know, friend that a guy that I knew that I worked with it was like when this was in sales as well. So he's like one of these stereotypical sales guys, super gregarious.
00:13:57
Speaker
Friendly laughing met it everyone. He met was his best friend, you know, but the guy was pretty flaky and Turned out kind of selfish, you know, like he was he would he would kind of use he made friends so quickly I don't think he really cared if you lost him, you know, yeah, and he would he would kind of use people a little bit and I kind of had to after fool me once, it was kind of like, all right, I know what kind of guy this guy is, and he would still text me all the time and like, hit me up on social media. And I'm just like, I'm just not gonna hang out with this guy anymore. Like, I just can kind of see what kind of dude this guy this dude is. And I'm like, you know, I'm not I'm not doing that. So yeah, could be business, but it could be just relationships. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, you know, trust is so important and in some in a relationship like a marriage.
00:14:46
Speaker
where, um, you know, you need to be able to get along and and trust each other for a lifetime. And if you, you, it's easy to break, you know, it takes one time to to break trust and, and a long time to, to rebuild. In terms of marriage, what do you, what are your opinions on, um, you know,
00:15:11
Speaker
If, if, uh, you know, cause you'll always run into conflict in a marriage. If someone, if, if your spouse does something that you don't like, I mean, I know some people that can feel kind of like this, like, Oh, they fooled me once and now I'm never going to do that again or, or trust him again or, or, um, but it seems to me that in a marriage, you kind of need to, you have to trust him again. You know, even if, even if, yeah you know, you might, it might take more than once and I don't know. What do you, what do you think?
00:15:38
Speaker
yeah like you do Yeah, you do need to be able to trust them again. So you know it's always a two-way street. you always need to um You always need to be working on letting things go on your end ye and and and getting over things. And then on the other end, I think it's communicating what you need, what what you feel about something.
00:16:01
Speaker
uh, so that the other person knows, oh, that, that bothered you or, oh, that was a, that was a ah trust. I didn't know that was a trust thing for you, you know, things like that. Um, so you kind of need both things going on. Both people need both of those things going on at the same time. And that's really hard to to juggle. Like yeah people, people don't always do that and relationships don't always work out. I think that's a big part of why.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm just glad that, you know, my wife didn't completely stop trusting me after the first time she told me to, I told her I'd, you know, load the dishwasher and start it before I went to bed and then I didn't, you know, it's like, ah so yeah, but it's like, you know, in closer relationships, I think more than just once, you know, you have to kind of give people some chances but because um you You know in parenting we talk about this a lot how kids need repetition. Well, I mean adults do too when you're changing a habit or you're trying to get better at something. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not gonna be like I was doing that and then but Don't do that anymore ever hundred percent. It's usually not how it works. it it It takes a takes repetition. It takes a while and so
00:17:11
Speaker
um Yeah, I would caution people of taking this this proverb too far in that, you know, I give someone one chance and once that's it, they're done. You know, I'm never going to trust them again. I would I would caution against that. And because sometimes in relationships, you got to you got to give them multiple chances. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's yeah, you can't you it's not saying that um It's not saying give up on a person or or just you know cut them off completely, but just that you might need to you know keep an eye on things, right the ah trust but verify ah type of thing and until you can feel like you can trust just ah implicitly again.
00:18:01
Speaker
Um, yeah, he said about, uh, forgetting to load the dishwasher and stuff. it's It's interesting. My, my wife has an excellent memory ah about like events and conversations like for her whole life. Um, and I, my memory is not.
00:18:18
Speaker
great like that. And so there's there's always conflict there where she'll say something, she'll remind me of something she told me about like a month or two ago. And let I mean, let alone yesterday, it happens enough that way. but just like ah And I was like, no, I'm sorry, I do not remember that at all. I do not remember that conversation. You know, I might remember like,
00:18:40
Speaker
what side of a page I read a certain like sentence on from a book. my memory work yeah weird but not So, you know, it's not that I'd have no good memory. It's just I, it's just not in that ballpark. And so, you know, learning that about another person, what their strengths and weaknesses are and giving, giving grace, I think is is a good idea.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think so too. i I was talking to someone a while ago who was a listener of the show and they were mentioning some episode. I'm like, I don't recall that episode. Like vaguely maybe, but I don't remember what we even talked about with that one. So yeah, I'm a bad memory gang for sure. um And I don't know. It would be nice to to ah to improve it. I don't know. But yeah, for sure.
00:19:28
Speaker
um Yeah, I also wanted to ask about um just since we live in the information age and it's getting to this point where you know people share information freely. It used to be we had these news agencies that would kind of control information and kind of be the arbiters of it for better and for worse. One, they have The better part of it is they have better fact checkers and they can review stuff. And for worse, the worst part is they have an agenda and if they want to spin it whichever way they want, they can do that. So now we don't we kind of live in a ah wild west of information where stuff comes back and forth all the time. You can get really good information in real time. You can get really bad information that spreads like wildfire.
00:20:08
Speaker
um I think this one applies to that too. And I'm curious to get your thoughts as, you know, you'll see people post stuff online that is fake, you know, or sometimes you'll fall into it and you'll be like, I'll post some, you'll post something. And then it turns out, oh, that was actually not even, not even real or, or something like that. You know? Yeah. Did you, I don't know if you thought of that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You used to be able to it was It was a reputation thing. you know like ah There weren't many news networks or or newspapers, but like there was a name attached that that person had a reputation. Even if there was an agenda lurking behind, like for the most part, like if they had a big one or a big breach of of trust, they would just be done.
00:20:52
Speaker
like you know your your evening newscaster like was was trusted and you could rely on getting decent information. and and that Yeah, that's kind of all shot now. I think think most media companies don't have that trust anymore from from average people.
00:21:12
Speaker
um and Online, it's it's just like you said, it's the Wild West. I think right now, It's still being sifted out. I think what what probably is going to happen is you're going to have, um you know, especially with everything, so much stuff being able to be just straight up fake, you know, yeah we're running into the people fake audio recordings pretty easily now. And I think video is pretty close to being able to, you know, you can't can't trust your eyes, you can't trust your ears. yeah um So I think what it's going to lean back towards is
00:21:49
Speaker
being able to trust individuals again. And it's it's probably going to be much more fractured where, you know, maybe there's like a national figure that you can trust, but otherwise this can be like just an internet friend maybe you've met personally or or has a small following that like, and the you know, some of the people. And so it's just kind of these little groups that kind of trust a central figure. and maybe on one topic or or many topics, but yeah, I think it's just going to be kind of fractured where you really can only trust people you've met or, or people who are close to you who have, have met or vetted, you know, so it's it'll be an interesting next couple of decades, I think.
00:22:31
Speaker
I think you're right. I think that's already happening. I find myself doing that on online. If I hear some story, I'll tend to gravitate towards maybe a handful of people that I follow and be like, I wonder what this person has to say about it. Cause I feel like they're a straight shooter and I feel like they're, you know, really disciplined in what they, what they share and what they don't share. And maybe they've got some, some background in journalism or something where they they're good at, you know, vetting, vetting facts or something like that. Cause some of this fake information isn't even intentional. It's just, you know,
00:23:01
Speaker
So it can be well-meaning sometimes and just mistakes or it could be intentional and malicious but um, but yeah, I've i've already found myself kind of like leaning towards certain people like I I You know think this person is generally right and they don't they're not deliberately lying Most of those people are you know, not involved in the corporate press and anymore or if they were at all but Those guys, I think their trust is pretty much shot. But yeah, yeah like For me, a good example recently would be like the the hurricane response in in North Carolina, yes where you know the main the main news sources, if you ever so if you see them or to come across them, they mostly are just like, oh, it's not a big deal. But then you've got some people who are just very adamant that
00:23:49
Speaker
you know, FEMA and the federal government are actively blocking efforts, you know, yeah militantly, but yet there's no video of it. And you don't really, you've never heard of these people who are claiming it and the before. You want, you kind of are inclined to believe them, but you have no, but you don't know. So like, for me, it's just been a very like, okay, I guess I just gotta, this one, I have to wait out and see. yeah see what happens because I don't really know anyone personally out there. I i can't trust it. I'm not and not seeing would i would i anything I trust, so I just got to wait. and yeah i don't I don't know if you've experienced a similar thing with with any recent news. but
00:24:37
Speaker
I mean, I thought i've thought about the exact same example, the the hurricane. i I don't know how severe it was, how bad it was, because I kept getting in these conflicting reports. The last week we had on clay Clay Martin, and he was joking about that story, about like the the Haitian immigrants that were like eating stray cats or or something like that. Oh, yeah. yeah heard That's right. That one was crazy, because all the official news reports are saying it didn't happen, and then you'll see people on you know Being interviewed saying it did happen and then you're like, okay, is this an urban legend that people are just repeating cuz they heard someone say it or is it really people are observing this and seeing it and the official reports don't want to report it because it would be embarrassing to them I really don't have a clue what's true there or how much is true or if it happened one time or a hundred or zero I don't know, you know, yeah it's just it's hard to it's hard to Distinguish fact from fiction sometimes online
00:25:27
Speaker
Yeah, and i and I think it also um is a good reminder that some things you know we don't necessarily need to know or have an opinion about because it it is harder to verify. If something were happening you know in your neighborhood or in your town, you'd be able to get to the bottom of it even if you had to do it yourself and go ah go talk to people and go look at things. Sure. When it's in a different state or a different country,
00:25:53
Speaker
Um, you know, maybe it will affect you, but maybe you just kind of gotta to let it go and, uh, you know, keep an eye on things, but you really don't need to, don't need to have an opinion on it.
00:26:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, like I don't need need to know what's going on in Ohio. um mike Like you said, it being local, yeah, really excellent point, man. Because like, if if there was a story in my town, and they were like, this is crazy things going on, and we interviewed these people. And I knew those people, I could have an opinion on, are they full of crap or not? I could be like, well, that's, you know, Lirlene, and she's a nutcase, and she's always making stuff up.
00:26:31
Speaker
Or you know that's Cheryl and she's she she said it it it happened, you know what i mean or or whatever. you know So so ah yeah, I think the the the disconnect and the the global news and everyone has to know everything and have an opinion on everything is can drive a little bit of that. um And then then there's always always the some agenda, right? if it If it supports your agenda or pushes forward, if you're you know anti-fema and you get a story saying FEMA's not doing their job. That's just going to fuel your opinion more saying that yeah they're not doing their job. but If you're pro, you know, it's going to, you know, you know what I'm saying? I don't know. yeah exactly Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what do you think about this proverb? Is this something that, uh, the gods of the marketplace, is this something that society believes in mostly or or do you think no? Um,
00:27:30
Speaker
i I think, yeah, I think this is a a common sense enough one. It falls in where people really just, it resonates. it It makes sense to people, but there I think can be a little bit of the.
00:27:44
Speaker
um the the amnesia effect where if it's about so one issue they'll be like okay I can't trust them on this and then yeah i mean you know the next day they just forget or it's a different topic and they're like oh I trust this person now.
00:28:00
Speaker
So, you know, people people do that. You know, politicians are a great example where if you really think about it, you really can't trust a politician, but yeah people will trust the ones on their side and and and just not the ones on the other. But really, you probably need to be suspicious of the whole class. So, yeah. What do you think?
00:28:22
Speaker
I was going to say yes, that I think it's pretty much respected, but then like, and I guess I would say overall, generally it kind of is, but it just shocks me. You mentioned politicians, how often people will still kind of fall into that. And then, and we've also already talked about the the the media. um You know, how many times has, you know,
00:28:43
Speaker
have the big the big media knew the big news channels said something that was just pushed some agenda that turned out to be completely erroneous or false, you know, yeah, and people still seem to seem think like, well, I need to go to them for the source of news and I get it because if you don't, like we talked about, it's the wild west and they don't really know where to get their information. So I think a lot of people still go back to this this this corporate news, even though they fooled them more than once. you know and yeah And it can be tough. So yeah, this is ah this is a hard one, but I think it's important to just be a little bit a little bit skeptical and a little bit cautious about the about the information you're getting and about ah
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, business, relationships, and everything. be ah Be cautious, especially the second time around. Even if you want to be trusting the first time, be a little more cautious the second time. Yeah. and and i guess and And it's a final thought on it. like ah ah for For you, being a source of of information and and trust, like b try to be a straight shooter with people and try to be the kind of person that that they can they can rely on um for for information, for for help, anything like that. Be be dependable and be be honest.
00:30:01
Speaker
hundred percent. That's a great advice. And also don't be afraid to to tell people that you're not a hundred percent sure. If if you if you sit tell someone something, oh, I heard this or that, and they ask you, oh my gosh, is that true? Just be careful. Don't say, oh yeah, a hundred percent. Because I heard it from someone. Be like, ah well, this is what I heard. you know It could be true or might not be. and and And just be a little bit cautious and wise about the way we we spread information so that so that we can we can be those trusted sources and and not the guy who's screaming at the Into the into the news microphone that they're interviewing on the street, you know, yeah, exactly All right. Well, hey, man, that was a good one. Thanks. Appreciate it. And thanks everybody for listening Remember fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me and ah We will see you guys all next week. All right. We'll see you. Bye There are only four things certain since social progress began and
00:30:58
Speaker
that the dog returns to his vomit and the sow returns to her mind and the bird through the bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire and that after this is accomplished and the brave new world begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sin as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the copy book head terror al
00:31:50
Speaker
the gods of the copy were hideous with terror and slaughter.