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Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
24 Plays3 days ago
In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss the creative process, drawing inspiration from others, and where that crosses the line into plagiarism.
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Transcript
Introduction & Inspiration Behind the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter returned
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello everybody. And thank you for joining us for another episode of the copybook headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called the gods of the copybook headings. And every week we take an old saying proverb or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom that's relevant today. I am your host Patrick Payne. And with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you doing, man? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you?
00:00:57
Speaker
I'm all right. ah Things have been crazy, man. ah Yeah, getting a late start. Things are all over the place today tonight. But you know, consistency is ah consistency
Hosts' Personal Updates and Life Balance
00:01:09
Speaker
is important. So even just getting an episode up when when things are going nuts, I think is an important thing to do. So here we are.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah. That's, that's admirable. I agree with you. that's This is one of those times it does. This is one of those times where if it had been, you know, just me recording on my own, it would have been not happened, you know, and you're like, yeah you know, just have a, having a accountability partner and having a, having a teammate, I think is, is good for, for projects like this. So glad to have you and glad to have you all listeners. So, uh, how you been?
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's been good. I feel like it warmed up again this week. I don't know how it's been up there. um But yeah, it's been it's been pleasant. It's been a nice fall week for us. Oh, nice. I was ah doing a little traveling for work. I was up in Jackson Hole, and um it was full on winter there. I mean, snow on the ground everywhere, and it was pretty cold. It was like 18 degrees or something, 17. But it's not that bad here.
00:02:13
Speaker
so but Yeah, we, um, our seems like our nice fall has kind of been ending. We start to get a little bit of snow. You got any snow down there yet or no? No, we got, we got like a dusting a week, a week or so ago. Um, but it's been, it's been, yeah, like I said, it's been warmer. The, uh, the kids are complaining about it. They really wanted, they wanted big snow. My toddler said when it, when it just was kind of dusting and, and you know, they would not,
00:02:45
Speaker
they would They would not listen to reason, they they demanded the snow and did not understand why we could not make it happen for them. Why why were you being mean, dad? Why don't you just do it? Yeah, it was warm enough that we did we did a little fire out the backyard the other night and did some s'mores and not everyone, we didn't freeze to death doing it, so that was nice.
00:03:08
Speaker
that Those are always nice. It's a nice time of year when it's like cold enough to have a fire, but not so cold that it's you don't want to be out there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, cool, man.
Origins and Misconceptions of the Proverb
00:03:20
Speaker
um We got a interesting proverb this week and a common one, I think yeah you want to want to tell us about it. Yeah, the the the phrase is imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. um And for what I found,
00:03:38
Speaker
I found kind of a debunking article about it. I guess this from earlier this year, I guess I've been going around that that this was like an Oscar Wilde quote. um And that the full version was, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness, which kind of you know flips the flips the meaning on its head really, but it turns out that it's not real, at least that second part. So so the the part we're doing, Imitation is a Sincerest Form of Flattery, attributed to Charles Caleb Colton, who had a book of aphorisms in 1820. So well before Oscar Wilde. He wrote the whole book of aphorisms? Yeah, yeah I think he just... Or he compiled it. A popular thing back back in the day to compile these
00:04:30
Speaker
Proverbs and aphorism books and things. Yeah, I haven't seen this one off to check it out because Always interesting reading reading these and seeing seeing what's in them um But yeah, like the the other parts That other part seems to have different variations and and stuff but ultimately what we're landing on is is the one we're doing here is a about 1820 and is not an Oscar Wilde quotation. So, yeah. Big gay Oscar, as we yeah I call him. He had some good sayings, though. He had some good phrases. He had some great ones, yeah. He did. um ah So who did you say it was from? Who was it attributed to? It was attributed to, sorry, I scrolled.
00:05:24
Speaker
I scrolled away on my my article here. Charles Caleb Colton. Charles Caleb Colton. he may be the That may be the first time we mentioned him. That doesn't sound familiar. Yeah. Have we mentioned him before? I don't think so. He was an English cleric, writer, and collector, well known for his eccentricities, says Wikipedia. That's a little bit like Oscar. Yeah.
00:05:52
Speaker
OK. Well, yeah, that's good. Interesting. I'll have to do a little bit of research on on him and find a little bit more about him. I always like those guys that that are interested in old sayings. We share that in common. um Yeah, okay. Well, cool. What what do what what do you what
Imitation in Arts and Personal Growth
00:06:08
Speaker
do you think about this one? What did you what made you want to pick this one?
00:06:11
Speaker
um
00:06:15
Speaker
Gosh, I don't I don't know. I think um I like to um I think I just i agree with it for for one thing. um you know And I like both sides of it. i like I like to imitate things that I like, especially as I'm learning something. If I'm you know working on art or music or writing, I find that I tend to imitate the people whose work I like. um And i I'm not doing it just to copy them and try and
00:06:50
Speaker
rather their coattails is just because I like it and I want to be able to do it myself. And then, um, you know, that's part of the learning process is that you you imitate, um, things that you like, and then you, once you've mastered it or or come close, then you start doing your own thing and totally, um,
00:07:08
Speaker
and And so, yeah, I just, I think it's ah it's a worthwhile way to to approach, especially the arts, learning learning new things. i'm sure And then, you know, it's it sure is flattering to be to be copied in that way, I imagine. It hasn't happened to me yet, but I mean, even, it's funny though, it's something that you always have to, I think this is one that comes up that people tell their kids,
00:07:35
Speaker
This is what you tell your oldest child when the younger ones are or acting like them, you know? Exactly. Yep. Because the the thet little kids are looking up to them, but but they don not they do not appreciate it yet, you know?
00:07:49
Speaker
True. but And the younger one will often deny that they're doing it because they admire their older sibling, but secretly they do. and That's the reason. um No, yeah, man this is ah this is a good one. i I thought of art and music as well at first, because I remember the process of learning to play the guitar. No one picks up a guitar and starts even if they once they've learned a few basic chords or something, they don't just start playing a song that they made up, you know, you first learn a song that it's, you know, like, Oh, I'm going to learn a Nirvana song or weezer or something. You know what I mean? And you pick up the guitar and you learn a couple little chords and you start playing and you're copying a song that you like. Yeah. But then if you keep doing it long enough, then you can start adding your own flair to it. You can start mixing up chords in different ways, maybe add a few scales or or parts of scales into add a little solo riff or whatever. And pretty soon, you know,
00:08:41
Speaker
not soon actually, it takes a really, really long time, but over time you will develop and you can start writing your own songs and and stuff like that. so So yeah, I mean, that's kind of where where my mind first went to.
00:08:55
Speaker
You were a you're a musician a little bit too, right? Memory service? Yeah, a little bit. And I'm i'm trying to andm trying to play more again, playing guitar, um trying to pick that back up and freshen that skill. Because yeah, I played a lot in college and you did the college band thing. It was a lot of fun. um But never got like to the point where I thought I was like really good or anything. So I've been playing. you know was Before we were recording here, I was just tinkering around and so yeah, I just, and and and you're right, like you're, um there's a real satisfaction in being able to play something that you like by someone else. um Before, I mean, maybe even more so than than playing your own stuff, at least until your own stuff can get some recognition and stuff, right? um But a lot of times the the feedback you get when you're playing for other people is they like,
00:09:55
Speaker
They like to hear things they know too. sure So you end up doing a lot of cover stuff. you know When you're doing the college parties thing, they don't want to hear your originals. They want to hear their favorites by whoever they like. And so yeah there's that reinforcement to to copy.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, and for a couple reasons, I think. ah One is your originals probably aren't as good as the as the hits. you know yeah You're not probably not as talented as the bands they know. But then also, if you go to a show of one of those bands and they're like, oh, we got some new stuff. Everyone's like, no. Everyone's like, boo, play the hits. you know We want to hear the stuff we're familiar with. So hearing stuff that people know already, is there people are always biased towards that anyway. But but yeah, I think ah when when you're learning a song by somebody else,
00:10:41
Speaker
It is it is kind of a form of flattery to learn those. And I think you gain an appreciation for for the artist, too, because as you start to learn one, it might be hard to play to even if it's a simple chord progression, it's like. You realize, man, it it would even a simple chord progression can be tricky to come up with in the right rhythm in the right time to make it sound good. And then you add some some lyrics and some some vocals to it. And and i I don't know, I've I've gained more of an appreciation for artists as I've as I've copied them.
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. You the you start playing, you're like, wait, they they sing the sand while they're playing? Like, ah okay. yeah That's hard. Yeah. um Yeah, it also made me think of, you know, the way that You know, well, I mean, to to the title of our podcast here, ah the way that people used to learn but through copying um and and copying the the sayings, the the works of their great predecessors, you know, all the way back to like Rome when they're like the school children are copying the Iliad on their little tablets.
00:11:52
Speaker
And before they're allowed to compose their own poetry, they have to be able they they just copy the the masters until, I don't know, they can recite it ah from from memory or whatever. but that's ah But for centuries, that's been the way that they children have been taught, just by copying well-known and time-tested stuff.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Copying is ah a good, excellent way to learn.
Imitation in Business Practices
00:12:25
Speaker
um One of the things that made me think of was, so I'm a salesman by trade, and one of the phrases I use a lot is, and I've, i I don't remember where I heard it or if I came up with it or I don't remember. I probably copied it from somebody, but it's ah there's no plagiarism in sales. I say that all the time because when you're trying to figure out a way to the best way to communicate your product to a customer,
00:12:51
Speaker
Um, you'll hear other good sales reps say things. And if you like the way they say it and if it works really well and it lands with the customer and they go, Oh yeah, that that makes sense. Then put that in your pocket and use it. You know what I mean? And over the years you've, you work with people long enough and you, you start watching and learning and kind of develop your own, your own way to, your own way to do things, but, but you never forget these little, these little terms of phrases. Like there's.
00:13:18
Speaker
Like, let's let's say you want to go into it with a customer and you really want to present your product, right? But you don't want to go in and be like, let me tell you about this great product. sir Sit right down. let me You know, turn them right off. You're like, no. And so you might go in and just be like, hey, I was just curious how you might ask them this question or that question. And then if they tell you anything that sounds like there could have some problem or a pain point, I i knew there was this guy who, I don't remember where I picked this up, but he goes, hmm.
00:13:44
Speaker
Well, tell you what, why don't we do this? Why don't we set it to the time to just go over a couple of little things that I think might be able to help you? And I was like, man, i was that was smooth. And the customer's like, yeah, sounds great. Let's do it. And if yeah it's like this the the tell you what phrase. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't we just do this? And then the customer's like, great. If you came in and be like, I want to set up an appointment with you, sir. let's say He would have been like, no, not interested. Yeah.
00:14:05
Speaker
But um just the way he worded it was a real smooth and and the customer wasn't ah upset or offended and didn't feel like he was being pushy. Could've said no, but he didn't. He was just like, yeah, all right, come show me what you got. And um so, yeah, no there's no plagiarism in sales. so if and And that's true of a lot of industries probably. um Also reminds me of the the the phrase like standing on the shoulders of giants, right? You're always learning and adding your own stuff on top of something that you probably copied for somebody else. Yeah, yeah exactly.
00:14:35
Speaker
um What you said, though, it it reminded me of maybe the other context I hear this one most is when talking about plagiarism um and either as a deflection from plagiarism or just kind of maybe like a cope about plagiarism. Like, for example, thinking thinking of the online world.
00:14:58
Speaker
thinking of like Twitter, someone will have a great ah great meme and then some from some small account and then some big accounts steals it and yeahp without attribution. And it's just, the and that's kind of, you might tell yourself to to feel better as well. At least, you know, they're they're copying from me. they They're, you know, sincere flattery, right? Yeah. um But, but what about like, how did,
00:15:26
Speaker
Does this one, can this one go too far? Like do we get beyond justification in imitation, do you think? Whereas imitation distinct enough that it does not cover plagiarism, right? Is it, you have to do something, you have to tweak it somehow to make it your own, to be an imitation rather than a copy. What do you think? Oh, that's a really good question. um
00:15:53
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, obviously that's really slimy when you, when those big accounts, they're always posting these bangers and then you real, and then someone will call them out on it and post the original tweet. That was a week before, you know, yeah word for word, the same thing from some little account. And you're like, bro, like you're you're just stealing the, the, the gold nuggets from all these from everywhere and theyre just putting them on one spot. And then, you know, so yeah, that's pretty slimy. Um,
00:16:20
Speaker
ah Yeah, i don't I don't know. What do you think? there isn' there seem to be a There seems to be a line there, but what what are your thoughts on it? Yeah, i mean it's because we have we have a long tradition also of like warding against plagiarism or or or treating you know intellectual property as something distinct and and worth upholding, right? Like there's there's a lot of legal tradition in that for America and going back further. So yeah, yeah I think
00:16:57
Speaker
I think we we we can't cover everything with this with this proverb. I think there's there's stuff that, um yeah, I mean, imitation. it's you're you're You're not taking someone else's stuff and saying it's yours yours. You might be copying it to learn from it or to say, hey, like I tried to do this myself.
Legal Perspectives on Imitation vs. Plagiarism
00:17:17
Speaker
Hey, I recorded this song. I recorded myself playing the song that someone else wrote. like What do you think of my version of it?
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah, you're not like taking their song and saying, hey, look, this is mine. You know, yeah, I did that. So yeah, I think that that's the distinction, I guess, is is putting credit where credit is due.
00:17:35
Speaker
For sure, and in like even with copyright law, you can't like take somebody else's song and play it without permission in certain you know commercial contexts, but you can make a kind of a cover of that song, same word, same lyrics, same tune, same everything, but you sing it, and all you have to do, I think, as far as I know, I mean, I'm not a copyright lawyer lawyer, but I think all you have to do is just credit the band, and then you can you can release the cover as your own. Yeah. Is that your understanding of it?
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think maybe, I don't know if you need to, to pay any royalties. Like, does they make royalty? I mean, yeah, I don't know. But I don't, but I don't think there's anything that, that like stops you, right? Like you can do it. If you make money from it, you need to give them their cut, but they can't say, no, you can't cover our song. Right. Like, um, yeah. So I think, I think that's the distinction, but, so but yeah, you can't stop anyone from copying, but you can get your piece of the action because you wrote it originally.
00:18:35
Speaker
i you know You know weird Al Yankovic, he does those the spoofs of all the stuff. Are you thinking of him too? Yeah. I always heard the story of how he would always ask permission just as out of ah politeness. I saw like an interview with him. He's like, I just out of a courtesy I was asked for. But apparently but he also mentioned the in the thing that he didn legally doesn't have to.
00:18:55
Speaker
Like he doesn't have to ask for permission. He just does it as of a courtesy. And most people say yes. Most people are really excited. Except for Prince. He said that Prince always said no. He tried to cover several Prince songs for the artist, formerly, again, known as Prince, whatever. He would always be like, no, just pretty hilarious.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, I remember, I remember seeing some, I don't know if it's the same thing or something further back about like asking him Michael Jackson and being be pretty nervous to ask him about some of those early covers he did of him when he was not very famous, but Michael Jackson was the most famous yes guy out there, and yeah. Yeah, there's sort of some of his earlier ones.
00:19:36
Speaker
That's pretty good. um Yeah.
Imitation in Social Media and Creativity
00:19:39
Speaker
Well, one of the other things that reminded me of was you mentioned like Twitter and some people will copy tweets word for word, but then other times there's definite trends. Like one person will come up with a trend with a picture and a caption and they'll create like a little meme and then it goes like wildfire and everyone's adding their own little flair to it.
00:20:00
Speaker
And that I think is different than just stealing someone's tweet. You're going along with the trend and having fun with this little meme that's spreading around, right? Yeah, I agree. I see it the same way. like someone It's like when you're, when you're hanging out with your friends and someone starts a joke and everyone starts riffing off of it, like, ye um, it's not everyone, just tell them the same joke. That'd be funny. That'd be a funny sketch or something, right? Just want your friends telling him the same joke. In the exact same way.
00:20:32
Speaker
exact same um Yeah, yeah, it's a it's different starting starting something like that than just, yeah, ripping it off. Because you know what but parody does like where you you are altering the original content, you're tweaking it to make a different kind of joke and and everyone's doing that.
00:20:56
Speaker
It funny, one time on Twitter with, it was me and another guy, actually someone that we've had on as a guest, um one of our friends. I made a tweet of making a joke about something and I made like a reference to like a movie. And then like a week later he did the exact same thing, but it was worded slightly different.
00:21:18
Speaker
And so I just mentioned some like, Oh yeah, great minds think alike. And he was like laughing. He was like, I hadn't even seen your thing. Like I just, we thought of the exact same tweet, of like exact within days of each other. And then he was like, sorry, I'll delete it. And I'm like, no, no, you don't have to. I don't care. But, um, but yeah, we really just came up with the same idea. So that, that, that happens sometimes too. Yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
So what do you do? Circling back to the kids thing, you know, I got I got a chuckle out of you from, you know, seeing the younger ones copy the older ones and stuff like it can it can escalate to conflict. Like what do you what do you say? What do you and your wife say to diffuse that kind of You know, mimicking behavior and stuff like, you know, the getting upset about it. Cause my, my five year old is in the at the stage where she.
00:22:12
Speaker
gets pretty upset at the two-year-old for copying her and stuff like that. You know, I don't know. You might know better than I i do. i we're but't I'm sure that's happened. Yeah, I think we're through it. And so I don't really remember the the the ah details of it. Because I remember hearing at some point in our house, he's copying me. Like, I remember that. But I don't really remember what it was or how we dealt with it or how how long it went on. How are you guys dealing with that?
00:22:42
Speaker
um I don't know know that we're we're doing great at it. um i gate it It's enough that it's funny went when the two-year-old was younger, I mean maybe even a year ago.
00:22:57
Speaker
I think she was copying her sister enough that her phrase for like, leave me alone was, was don't copy me. So if you were like bugging, if you, if you did something to the the toddler, she would just say, copy me, don't copy me. Um, so it's that her dar a time too. She heard that enough that she interpreted to mean like, leave me alone was don't copy me. Um, yeah, it, uh,
00:23:26
Speaker
mostly just just ah either having to give space or or what's what's my ah what's my wife, her her approach right now, I don't know where she stopped, but it's a good one, is trying to coach the kids rather than referee them. And so trying to, when they're when they're outside of the tense situations, that's when you reinforce the that they did a good job doing X or Y and that they handled something well, they can give the praise when it's outside of the tent situation so that when they're in it, you can give some suggestions rather than, um you know, lay, have to lay down the law.
00:24:09
Speaker
Yeah, I like that coaching rather than referring. It's not always easy to do um in the moment. Sometimes you just want to just be the authority. But yeah, I like that approach a lot. admit Part of it may be that we have have so many kids at this point that they have so many people to copy, it's not as noticeable. Like when there's just two, like y'all is the little one, they have one person to emulate.
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah. But the our youngest, he says the most hilarious things. And sometimes we don't know where he gets them, but he's like, he's picking little, little stuff up from all of his older siblings. But yeah.
00:24:46
Speaker
um What do you think about the the gods of the marketplace on this one? is ah Is this something that society kind of agrees with generally? i I kind of feel like this is one that most people would agree with. I don't i don't know. What are your thoughts?
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm just I want to look at the the full erroneous version and see, because I feel like there's something to that, ah the way that people think about it, that um about, you know, the the mediocrity part, mediocrity, sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness. I think there's a little bit of that on the on the ah side of the people who are being imitated that, um, cause so much of like the social media landscape to to use a cliche, um, is about, you know, the personal brand of the personalities and staking out your little territory based on your brand. And so when someone encroaches on that, um, either innocently as, as imitation or
00:26:00
Speaker
maybe a little more calculated as trying to, trying to steal some of that, that kind of market share. Like people get really defensive about their little turf. And so I think a lot of, a lot of the big, the big wigs, um, see themselves as great. And then, and then anyone copying them as mediocre when it might just be someone who likes what they're doing and is earlier on in their creative process. And someday they themselves will be great, but, um,
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, so i think I think there's some of that territorial nature with with people right now in the you know in the online areas. What do you think? Yeah, I think you're probably right about that. you know from i'm I'm really struggling to think of a concrete example to back what up my my thought here, but I feel like when people don't do that, it ends up working better for them when they just act more collaborative.
00:26:58
Speaker
And they aren't so protective over their little Like you said turf, but I can't think of a a good example to to to show that but I just feel like i've seen that before where people will will some people will get real protective over it, but but you know as people are kind of taking things from you like If you can find a way to be collaborative with it like we mentioned about the friends riffing on a joke like that's a really fun time, a really creative time when everyone's kind of just pulling from each other versus no, no, no, that was my joke. You leave that one alone, you know, yeah like that that wouldn't be any fun if anyone did it that way. Yeah, no one wants to be friends with a guy like that. So no. He stole my joke. Yeah, I know. I think this is a great one. I think, ah you know,
00:27:53
Speaker
what what what What do you think are kind of the, would be kind of your main takeaway with this one? If you're if you're kind of, would it be more to to guard yourself against you know plagiarizing someone or would it be kind of have a positive attitude when someone does that to you? Or what do you think is is the kind of the main the main gist of this one that you're gonna take from this? I'd say like creatively, don't be too worried.
00:28:21
Speaker
that you are like imitating other people's stuff. um I think that's fine. And I think a lot of people get self-conscious about it, especially when they're trying to put their stuff out there. Maybe they're just trying to put it out too early. Maybe they need to not try and have a big audience yet, but you know show it to some some trusted people, um you get some good feedback. but you don't ah But don't worry that you're doing it.
00:28:49
Speaker
ah it's It's going to happen naturally.
Encouraging Imitation for Creative Development
00:28:52
Speaker
It happens to me naturally. like um you know I like i like to to dabble with writing and stuff. And I was reading a ton of Hemingway at one point when I was writing some short stories. And they came out very in the very much the style of Hemingway. And I don't and i think that's I liked it because I like his style. So I didn't yeah ah didn't have a problem with it. And the stories were nothing like his stories. So I felt pretty confident that it was an original thing, but it might be compared in style. um But yeah, that's I think that's good. It's, it's good to have influences in your work. And eventually you'll, you'll get out there and and do your own stuff and put your own stamp on things and your own twist on things so
00:29:39
Speaker
ah Don't worry about it. Yeah, I love that. I think that's really good advice. I like the Hemingway thing. I had the little college band for a while too playing guitar and I had a buddy that we would kind of jam with together. He could always tell. If I came up with a little song or part of a song on my own, he could always tell who I'd been listening to. He's like, you're listening to them a lot, weren't you? I was like, yes. Because yeah, you pick up those styles even if they're not exactly.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, going back to what I said earlier about standing on the shoulders of giants, I think it's impossible to really create anything with without, if not impossible, it's extremely, extremely rare just to come up with something completely out of the blue. You need influences. Some of the best people I've seen that I follow on on X and they constantly have good takes on things. so a lot of those guys are just often quote tweeting as opposed to just writing stuff originally because they're they're taking someone's thought and they're adding to it or they're critiquing it. or they're doing that you You got to have that data coming in to kind of put your own stamp on it. so
00:30:41
Speaker
So yeah, I think the, the, the invitation is kind of important in a way, as long as you, as long as you don't kind of cross that line into being a, being a scumbag plagiarist.
00:30:55
Speaker
ah So come up with your own stuff. Come up with your own stuff. All right. Well, hey, that's about time. But hey, thanks so much for this one. This one one was fun. And thank you everybody for listening. We'll have another one up for you guys next week. All right. We'll see ya. Thanks. Bye.
00:31:11
Speaker
There are only four things certain, since social progress began, that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin, as surely as water will wet us,
00:31:41
Speaker
as surely as fire will burn the gods of the copy walk idiots with terrors or tortures