Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Do Not Change Horses in Midstream
32 Plays26 days ago
In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss the principle of staying the course, when it's appropriate to do so, and when it's time to abandon that idea and jump ship from a bad situation.
Recommended
Transcript
Poetic Introduction & Inspiration
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter returned
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings.
Format & Holiday Traditions
00:00:39
Speaker
And every week we take an old saying, proverb or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom that's relevant today from these old proverbs. I'm your host Patrick Payne and with me, as always, is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you? I'm doing all right. How are you? Good, man.
00:00:58
Speaker
Holidays are in full swing now. Yeah. And slowly going broke, playing. What if I little? And I don't know, how about you? Yeah, good. Yeah, we didt did a lot of lot of holiday stuff, a lot of Christmas stuff this last weekend we did.
00:01:18
Speaker
uh, the church Christmas party for breakfast on Saturday. And they did a little, you know, the kids did a little nativity song and stuff. So my, my oldest was a a sheep and, uh, you know, did a good job with the part. And then we went and got our Christmas tree that afternoon.
Christmas Trees & Stories
00:01:37
Speaker
We went and got a, we like to get, we like to get live ones. I think that's part of being growing up in the Northwest where our family tradition is we would pretty much like on Thanksgiving, mom would put the turkey in the oven and we'd go drive up to the mountains and cut down the tree and then come back home and have have Thanksgiving dinner. And um so I was very spoiled with nice, fresh Christmas trees. And it's ah it's a little trickier to get them here in Utah and it's definitely pricey. So every year and I tell myself myself, ah, we're getting a, we're gonna get a fake one. This is too much, but so far I'm still doing the the real ones.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, we've had a fake one for years now because we were in Idaho, but we used to live in Arizona. So I didn't think cutting down a Saguaro would, uh, would be, I think that's very illegal actually. Yeah, it probably is. But, uh, yeah. Um, we, uh, we read, it's funny, you mentioned the kids, your kids did ah the nativity. Um, we, last night I read my kids, the, the best Christmas pageant ever read that book.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that movie from when I was a kid. Oh, really? It was from the 70s or something, yeah. They just came out with a new one. Have you seen the new movie? Oh, really? No, I haven't. It's in theaters right now. Oh, cool. Yeah, they actually did a pretty good job on it. I thought it was pretty good. Yeah. But yeah, I read that book. Whenever I think of Nativities now, I think of that. It's a classic, Christmas classic. But anyway.
00:03:10
Speaker
Without further ado, we've got a good proverb this week.
Lincoln's Proverb & Historical Context
00:03:14
Speaker
What do you got for us this week? Yeah, this one is ah it's another don't, ah don't change horses in midstream.
00:03:25
Speaker
um and And don't cross the strings. That's another one yeah from a movie. Sorry, I was dumb to you. No, you're all right. um Yeah, so this one is is attributed to Abraham Lincoln, actually. So it's ah it's an American one. um It reminds me, it has like a Western feel to me. It seems like yeah you know something will be in a Western film or something. you know Totally. um Out on the cattle drive, you know don't change your horse while you're crossing the river.
00:03:57
Speaker
Um, yeah, cause I mean, it's, it's good advice to finish it, to finish a task before you, you change things up, right? Like, um, and I guess the context of this one was, um, the, the national union party, um, it was a, a wartime coalition of Republicans, war Democrats and border state, unconditional unionists.
00:04:26
Speaker
They supported Lincoln and the in the Civil War, um and I guess they approached him, they wanted him to run ah for their party, ah as president for their party and in 1864. And so his his response to them was,
00:04:43
Speaker
um He said, an old Dutch farmer who remarked to a companion once said that it was not best to swap horses when crossing streams. So he didn't want to, he didn't want to change parties. He thought he wanted to see things through, um, see things through with his current party.
Proverb's Applicability & Modern Analysis
00:05:03
Speaker
So that's, that's the context of this one and some interesting histories and, um, some civil war era, uh, proverb here for us.
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah. um Some of the reading I had done on it seemed to indicate that he, did he use that as a campaign slogan as well? Um, I don't know. I didn't find that. Did you find that? That's what I thought I saw. He was like, like when he was going for reelection, he was kind of trying to convince people, Hey, don't change.
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I guess, um, I guess, yeah, I'm seeing this, like mentioning that it was from a speech. Um, but you know, so maybe it was like a campaign speech. He was running that saying, Hey, they wanted me to change. I'm not going to change you. Voters shouldn't change either. Yeah. Yeah, maybe so. Um, yeah, that's a good one. I thought this was an interesting one. Um,
00:06:02
Speaker
This one was one where I heard it and I wasn't sure if I 100% agreed with it, you know, because a lot of the ones I hear and ah we're like, I'm like, yeah, totally. This is a great one. This one was kind of like, yeah, I can see the merits merits of it, but sometimes sometimes you got to cut your losses, you know? So I kind of went back and forth on this one when I first heard it. ah Yeah. the as the notorious job hopper here. you Yeah. ah been around Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's definitely context specific and, and, you know, there's some variability as, as to what, what is considered, you know, midstream and, and, um, and all that. So I guess a little more like what.
00:06:46
Speaker
You know, if you you had some objects objections, in what kind of context did you think that maybe this one is was not a good one? What is not applicable? Well, when I was doing the research on Lincoln, I was just thinking, you know, every wartime president is going to say now, you know, you got to reelect me because we got to see this thing through. But that doesn't mean they're leading in the right direction necessarily. You know, yeah I mean, I remember back in the in the George W. Bush era, it was the same thing in Iraq. Oh, you you got to stay the course. Didn't he say something like that? It was like stay the course. And he's trying to get people, you know, for his own purpose and personal political agenda. We can't we can't change horses here. We got to keep on going and see this thing through to the end.
00:07:26
Speaker
But whether or not that was the right choice means to be you know is debatable. Yeah, maybe this one's just ah just outright false. Maybe this is just too ah too much propaganda, too much politicking attached to this one. Because you know another war um context of this is like um you know the generals who are in charge of the war, in charge of ah the armies.
00:07:52
Speaker
um you know Sometimes it is good to to keep someone in command, even if they've had a loss. Um, with the hope that they'd learn from it and that that's not, and that was an aberration and that they, they can still, they can still win. But otherwise, you know, if you've got someone who's just not getting the job done in ah in a situation where there's so much at stake, like a war, you, you maybe just need to switch things up and get someone who can try
Loyalty & Consumer Trends
00:08:23
Speaker
someone new in the job. Cause the last, the last guy isn't working.
00:08:27
Speaker
Yeah, this is a tough one because it doesn't seem like just obvious to me that it's it's this one's always true or even most often true. It seems like it could be one that they could go either way, depending on the context. um you know If you have a football team that's doing real poorly, I mean, they might change their coach mid-season, but I've rarely seen that work out real well. you know It's not like usually the second half of the season is great when they get a new head coach, you usually the whole,
00:08:55
Speaker
teams a disaster, you know, and the whole season shot. And so maybe it would be better to ah have a little continuity change at the in the off season. I don't know. No, that's a good point. And that's the other context I thought of right away it was like the but football coach thing. So many you know teams are so fast to scrap someone. But like, yeah, you're right. It's probably pretty rare that whoever they bring in as a replacement does a better job. They're just Uh, maybe they're just cheaper fired the old head coach and, and, uh, bring in the new guy until they can find someone in the next season. Yeah. What did did you, when you heard this one picked it, did you think of like ways to apply it in your own life that have been, um, that have been relevant to you or.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it it definitely it brought up thoughts to me of, of loyalty, of um like personal relationships. um You know, marriage, for example, like if you're going through a hard time in a marriage, you kind of need to see things through and and get through whatever hard patch you're in to before you reevaluate, right? Like, you um It's against you know making rash decisions, this this proverb. yeah And um when something is as ah important as a like a marriage or a relationship like that, you need to not be rash in those kinds of decisions, I think.
00:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree. um And i I do kind of agree with the general principle of this one that's basically saying there are certain times to change make big changes, and maybe there are certain times not to. And you know if you think of the of the proverb literally, if you're right if you're riding a horse, maybe you got another one next to you, and you're like, I think I'm gonna jump off this horse and jump on that one, as you're fording through a stream is probably not the best time to do it. like And so you can you can visualize that imagery and think of, okay, in whatever decision I'm going through right now, am I forwarding a stream? Am I going through a time where I'm going to get sopping wet if I jump off? Should I just wait a little before I make any changes? Yeah.
00:11:18
Speaker
um Yeah. And that was the way I thought of it. um you know ah Another phrase, and another I guess maybe it's a proverb but that comes to mind with this one is,
00:11:30
Speaker
is you dance with the one who brought you. If you agree to a relationship with someone or just a period of time, just whatever it is, you need to see that much through. You get invited to your kid, you get invited to a dance on a date, that's your date. That's who you're dancing with.
00:11:54
Speaker
Yeah. and Because that's the that's what you agreed to ahead of time. Even if someone else catches your eye, um you need to see things through for that event. Yeah. Yeah. you got You're going to have to ask her to the next dance. You can't yeah can't switch mid made a-date. ah Yeah. No, I agree with that. and i think
00:12:18
Speaker
And, you know, as someone who's kind of been a little bit of a perennial job hopper around most much of my life, I will say you need to make sure you're not in the proverbial stream when you do switch jobs. like there There are definitely times when you don't want to do that. If you're not financially stable, if you have a bunch of debt, if you have something, you know you may not it may not be the time to do it. You know what I mean? Maybe you want to be a little more, especially if it involves, like I've had jobs that involve a move out of state, that sort of stuff. like You really got to make sure that
00:12:52
Speaker
you got all your ducks in a row before you do something like that.
Political Strategy & Societal Values
00:12:55
Speaker
And sometimes I've done that and sometimes I haven't done that. it's it It doesn't always work out. So yeah, in in that sense, I think it's good advice. Yeah. And you know um you don't necessarily owe particular loyalty to ah to an employer in that regard. But I think maybe if in the context of something like, let's say you're heading into a a busy season headed into the holiday season. It's busy for your company and your boss is like, Hey, I know you're thinking about, you know, maybe you're thinking about leaving, but if you, could you see us through, help us see us through this busy time? And if you say yes, then you got to follow through, right? You just got to, you got to go for it. I mean, you're not obligated to, you could say, no, I'm going to go. But if you do say yes, you stick through that commitment, right? Yeah. Yeah. i Go ahead.
00:13:46
Speaker
No, I want to hear your story. so ah i was I just I used to work when I was in college, I used to work at UPS. And this time of the year is just insane. And it just made me think of that. Because if someone did leave, not only were you kind of hosing your boss, but you were doing that to you're all your coworkers, too, because everyone was buried. You know, so it was always as everyone hated it when someone left at Christmas time when the packages are stacked up above your head. Yeah.
00:14:14
Speaker
yeah there's there's there's all Yeah, there's the um unofficial, the informal kind of ill will that can that can happen if you if you bail on everyone. ah you know Sometimes you got to. ah But yeah, there's there's that so for possible definite possibility if you leave. you What you leave behind lands on someone else's plate. And if you don't like them that much, then fine. But if you do, it could be a a hard conversation.
00:14:42
Speaker
ah
00:14:46
Speaker
Another thing I thought of with this one, I guess recently with politically was the presidential election where, um you know, Biden deciding not to seek reelection ah pretty late in the game. and And so they, the Democrats had to switch horses kind of midstream as far as the election season goes. And it was, seemed like it was a lot of catch up for them that um that they could not overcome.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, it didn't work out well for him. Switching, straighting switching, switching, picking a different pony that time. Man, that was a tough situation, though, because I mean, it seemed like their guy was like noticeably declining and everyone knew it. And it's like they were in a, they were doing a rock in a hard place, seemed like at that point. Is the horse going to make it across the stream? Is the horse going to die and drown us both?
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah. No, I think that's a great example. I don't know why I didn't think of that one. I was thinking of this one, but I think that's a perfect example. It didn't work out well. You got a candidate that's not well known and trying to run against a former incumbent. Is that what you would call Trump as the second time? Yeah.
Teaching Commitment & Generational Changes
00:16:00
Speaker
So he wasn't the incumbent, but had been. So yeah.
00:16:05
Speaker
um I do think that it's really common nowadays for people for society to just be too willing to change. And I've been guilty of that myself. um Even if it's just, I mean, anything, it could be leadership, it can be, you know, people always want to change. We mentioned sports, you have a bad season, all the fans are clamoring for changing this and changing that and changing whatever.
00:16:28
Speaker
Um, whereas sometimes it takes a few years to build something. So even just like products that we own and things that we consume, it's really common to just want to change it or want to get rid of it. Or if something happens, you want to throw it out and get the new, new best thing. Um, but I mean, I i was,
00:16:52
Speaker
I know for a fact that sometimes new products come out really just so they can sell new products. And it's mostly its mostly marketing and and you know it doesn't do much different than what you have your previous one did. If you look at like technical aspects of it, I don't wanna get too much in the weeds of it. I just i happen to know certain products are are mostly mostly just a facelift and then they wanna go sell it just to make more money.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah, the yeah there's there's a lot of that with the people who have to have the brand new iPhone and yes or you know upgrade their car all the time or it's really just not not necessary and you know financially maybe not be the best decision to yeah keep you swapping out cars and things like that. And when you really could just just keep up on your maintenance and and not have something flashy. Yeah, no, and in and with vehicles are so expensive that I think it's a good idea to try to keep yours a little bit longer than I think most people do. But but yeah, I mean, i was ah it's funny you mentioned phones, because I was thinking about that. I was thinking about getting upgrading my phone a few months ago, and I went and looked at the new ones, and I'm like, what does this one do that mine doesn't do?
00:18:07
Speaker
and they had a hard time telling me. They were just like, well, you know, the camera's a little better. I'm like, this, I think my camera's great. Like the cameras on iPhones have been great forever. You know, for a long time now, they've been really good. They take great pictures of my kids or whatever, anything I need, you know, I'm not a professional. And I just couldn't think of it. And so, so I didn't, I didn't buy the new phone at the time. I just, I looked at them. I was like, you know, so yeah. What about you? um Well, I'm wondering about, um,
00:18:39
Speaker
ah you know, instilling instilling this value to the to the degree that it's a useful one in in kids. um Because they, you know, kids love that that new toy. They love her new the the next new thing. I don't know if that's just like hardwired into into kids and you they just kind of grow out of it maybe or or what, but you know, I definitely see that. I mean, even from when they're,
00:19:08
Speaker
They're so little, you know you give them the the toy that is you know engineered and designed to be for a baby and they just want you know your stapler. They want something that is not at all a toy. They just you know latch on to, because it's new, I don't know. So ah since your kids are a little older, have you had any experience with this? of um Teaching I don't know delayed gratification. I guess as part of it um Appreciation for what you have as as a part of it um What what have you experienced Yeah, I'm trying to think if are my kids have ah We try to avoid anything with too many ads Like we try to shield them from too many commercials because um I just remember getting totally brainwashed as a kid with these You know Saturday morning cartoon commercials. I mean it was I was like
00:20:05
Speaker
we I think we all were just so susceptible. We'd come running up the stairs or, you know, I would come running up from the basement after watching TV and tell my mom all the new toys that I had to have. Most of them were yeah stupid. So we try to kind of shield them from that as much as we can. And and I think I think, I don't know. I'm surprised that my kids aren't more that way. Maybe it is because we do that. But I pull out an old PlayStation. It was like a PlayStation 3. It's an old one. And my kids were stoked about it because it was something they hadn't played before. And the games look all crappy now, but they thought it was super fun. So I don't know. Yeah, appreciating old stuff isn't exactly what this proverb was talking about, but it's in the same vein, I think. Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
Um, or about, you know, maybe, you know, since your, your kids do a lot of, you know, extracurricular type stuff, um, you know, the sports and the jiu-jitsu and everything, like when it comes to sticking with, um, you know, sticking with that kind of thing, sticking with a sport, sticking with,
00:21:16
Speaker
at least sticking through a season, you know, and you and into have you run into them wanting to kind of quit mid-season and you just kind of have to give them a pep talk to finish it or have they just so far not not been a problem? ah Yeah, that's a good question. i i So far we haven't seen that but i I do think that's a good principle there. That's actually a really good um applicable one here where it's I really do think if you've committed to a sport for a season and your team's dependent on you, you should that's that's one area where I i think this is certainly yeah good advice.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah, because I feel like um yeah i've I've worked with like some of the the youth in my neighborhood a bit with church. And and I noticed you know the the young guys, the teenagers, they um They seem to to commit to things less than than we did when when we were teenagers and stuff. Like, you know, we were planning a camping trip or something, for example. and a lot of cancellations day of type stuff or just just um not following through with those types of things. um And so I think you know they' there i think there's ah some generational aspect there and maybe some aspect of just not, you know parents not teaching that value very well to to follow through with those kinds of commitments that for you agree to something you just
00:22:44
Speaker
You need a pretty good reason to to not go through with it, right? Or just you shouldn't agree with to it in the first place. Yeah, for sure. I think, ah I mean, I've had a couple of friends that.
00:22:57
Speaker
we're a little bit on the flaky side and we try to get together and do stuff and it was just always bail. And it's, ah yeah, man, it's a commitment is a virtue. It really is. And doing what you say you're gonna, doing what you're you say you were going to do and following through with it is, is ah I probably became closer with my friends that were just for maybe for no other reason than when they said they would, we would get together, we would, you know?
Internet Culture & Commitment
00:23:27
Speaker
So what do you think about, do you think this one is generally accepted by society at large or do you think this one's, this one is not so much? Um, yeah, I think, you know, kind of in the lines of what I was, I was just talking about, I think less and less. I think people are, um, the more, the more convenient a lot of things get the less.
00:23:51
Speaker
people need to commit to things. I think, I feel like the having the, this you just cell phone in general, not just necessarily the smartphone, but having that um kind of instant communication has made people not agree to things. so So, for example, like, you know, agree to show up at like a restaurant at a certain time to meet new friends or something. You used to be, you just had to be there because there was no way to get, once you're on the road,
00:24:19
Speaker
Um, you weren't gonna be able to get ahold of someone. So you just had to be there. Um, you watch old shows like Seinfeld, they'd call the restaurant or something like that to let them know. Yeah. Um, but now you just, you know, Oh, I'm five minutes late. I'll just text them. You know, I'll just, it's okay just to be late. I just text them, let them know. And so that that's kind of become the culture is that, um, it's okay to be late. You know, you can kind of flake a little bit and there's just no, no problem to it. Cause you,
00:24:47
Speaker
you let them know as if that's the the only ah issue and involved there, right? So I think I think it's kind of s slipping a lot with ah people committing to things. Do you think that's a cause of the just internet culture? or Or is there more to it than that? Do you think? I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I i mean, it seems kind of impossible to extract from from internet culture. So I don't know if there's a something else, you don't do a controlled study with with the Amish or something, I don't know. but Yeah. um How long do you think it's, ah it's you know,
00:25:31
Speaker
how long do you think you should stick with something that's not working? you know like yeah if if you were the If you were the athletic director ah of a football team and in the and the coach is doing poorly, like how long would you stick with them? Would you ride it out of season? would you Would you get rid of them right away? you know Would you stop at one of those convenient stopping points? Would you look for something like that? Or even an employee, if you had an employee that wasn't performing well,
00:25:58
Speaker
Do you think there's a ah principle applied there? You just have to play it by ear. I mean, I think. I mean, it's all pretty case, case dependent, like on how bad people are blowing things, you know, but yeah, you know, with like a football coach thing, like I see I'm not like super into, into that. So I don't know the, the ins and outs and and the decisions, but it seems to me that, okay, you hire someone like, unless they're, they've done something egregious, you kind of need to let them have the season, right? Like you hired them for the season. Let them.
00:26:35
Speaker
do what they're going to do with it. And, um, you know, you know, that's a pretty, that's still a pretty short term. One, one football season, if, if you're getting rid of someone, but, um, and, and then with, you know, with work, I like the idea of, of giving people notice, giving them, uh, opportunities to, to know that they're messing up, right? Like you kinda, you owe it to someone, especially if they don't know what they're doing wrong or that they're doing something wrong. You kind of.
00:27:05
Speaker
need to point it out to him and then I think you should give him some time to either figure it out or leave, you know, the probationary period type thing.
Evaluating Commitments & Farewell
00:27:15
Speaker
So, um I mean, I definitely lean a little more on on the side of giving people some grace so than than a lot of other people do, I guess. I think that's a, yeah, no, I think that's a virtue, man. i I've had,
00:27:30
Speaker
different jobs and I had one job one time when they were like, you know, it was a sales job. And I get in there and they're like, well, the first quarter, you know, sales usually goes quarterly. So the first quarter of the year, we're talking three months. That's kind of your your training period. And by but the second quarter, you better be you better be firing on all cylinders. just It seems like way too short. But it's hard to say, you know argue back and be like, well, I don't want to i shouldn't have to perform took for a long time. But you know then I've also had more roles. like I mean, now I think the company I'm at is ah has a much healthier culture. And they're like, hey, you know
00:28:09
Speaker
We're gonna help you and obviously you wanna do your best day from day one, but this could take a year to really get your feet wet and to really understand the role and do these things. When I hired on it, it was like, oh, they're investing in me long-term. I need to invest in in them long-term. I need to learn my role as best I can, learn their products, learn the industry, learn all this stuff. And I just think it's a much healthier situation when people have that long-term term ah perspective.
00:28:38
Speaker
Yeah, and and that's a good point. It really is pretty reciprocal. um you know You don't want to dive into something and and have like the mindset of of a long-term commitment, and when it's not clear that the other party is interested in the same thing, right? Like, yeah curious like you said jump right from the get-go, your company seemed to invested in you for the long term and you saw that and you reciprocated. where um you know So I think that's that's a good ah ah ah good yardstick there for this one. like
00:29:15
Speaker
you You kind of gauge what the the reciprocal effort is going to be and the loyalty. And that's why something like a marriage, you you need to have, since it's a very long, you know big commitment with a long timeframe involved, ah youre you're you want to put more effort into it.
00:29:33
Speaker
Um, but with, uh, a ah job, much less so, or, you know, a sport season, uh, less though. So yeah. Um, I think the the context there is, um, like kind of that, that amount of effort, I think is is a good, good way to look at it. Yeah. You don't want to be the, you don't want to be the one pining for marriage when your, uh, your date is just thinking, you know, this is a, this is a one-time thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a good situation to be in.
00:30:04
Speaker
Well, ah yeah, hey, we're about running out of time, but this is a good this is a good one. Thanks for picking this one. Yeah. it was it was ah no i'm I'm glad to to hear your thoughts on it because um there's more to this one than I than i thought. and And I liked your skepticism right away, because i I jumped in with this one being like, oh yeah, this is great.
00:30:26
Speaker
with ah Yeah, well, ah to the extent that it's true, like really it really is true in some cases. You just have to be judicious about applying this one, I think. But a lot of them are like that. So ah yeah, this was a good one. Thanks, man. And remember, everybody, do not change horses in midstream unless unless you it's appropriate. but what you Unless you do. All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time.
00:30:51
Speaker
All right, we'll see it. There are only four things certain, since social progress began, that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin,
00:31:20
Speaker
as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the copy will be hideous with terrors of water