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Many Hands Make Light Work
30 Plays5 days ago
In this episode Patrick and Andrew are joined by Michael Perrone to discuss the communal aspect of manhood, raising well socialized children, homeschooling, teaching your kids to work, and the unique obstacles that youth face today. Michael can be found on X at @michaelperrone
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begins when all men are
Introduction & Guest Appearance
00:00:06
Speaker
paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter returned
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying proverb or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's any ancient wisdom from these old proverbs that's still relevant today. I'm your host Patrick Payne and with me, as always, is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you, man?
00:00:56
Speaker
I'm, I'm, I'm doing all right. You know, rested, relaxed in the, in, in the my lane, in the zone moisturized, fluur moisturized. that Had a good, had a good, uh, relaxing break, you know, apart from.
00:01:12
Speaker
being around the kids a lot more for two weeks. but Nice. Well, yeah, same. ah Coming back off the break, glad to be back at it. And we are joined by, we have a guest this week. ah This week we're joined by michael Michael Perone. How are you, man? I'm great. I am rested and ready for the new year. Kind of decluttered all of the holiday Christmas stuff and just ready to get rolling.
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, I was just telling Michael off air that we were doing the same thing. Like my wife today was just like, I got to get this crap out of this house. Like normally we don't take our down our tree this quickly, but she's like, I can't handle it because there were so just empty boxes everywhere. She was like, tasking every kid who's you break down these boxes and you clean up this over here. So we're, we're pretty much declutter. We got it all done today.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, we were doing the same thing. We we don't usually we leave it up like through through epiphany. um You know, just because we love me in particular, like the winter I get so down in the winter. So I love I love Christmas and all the lights and stuff because like January and February it can be real a real drag still being dark and miserable without all the festivity. But I think it was just the kids playing with the ornaments on the trees were just like, so it was down before New Year's. It was we're just done. Nice. I'm surprised to hear that you get down in the winter because I know you're ah you love the rain. You're like a gloomy, you're gloomy guy kind of not gloomy, but you like it. gloom Yeah, I think I just maybe I'm just used to it because I grew up in the Northwest. And yeah, I just I just am gloomy. And that is just I don't know. I don't know. But that's something I've discovered about myself. I just need to
00:02:51
Speaker
I have a harder time in the in the depths of winter. I need to get a condo in Phoenix or something. I don't know. That's understandable. A lot of people like that. Speaking of the Pacific Northwest, we just got back from our trip to Oregon, which was awesome. Kids had a great time. And our guest, Michael, is ah you're a denizen of the the rainy ah area, Seattle area, right? I am, yeah. I'm not a native of this area. I'm originally from Texas, so I'm i'm a I'm still getting used to the gloomy, dark months of, you know, the, the sun puts in like an eight to four day every day. yeah And that's it. And it's, and even then it's just like, you know, peeking in through the clouds. That's cloudy. Yep. Yeah. the The worst I feel like is, is you get to late February, early March and you're like, there should be, there should be something more, but it's still dark and it's still right. Yeah.
00:03:44
Speaker
Well, that's how it's here. It is here in Idaho, like towards the end of the winter when it's like April and you still get some snow and you're like, get out of here winter like go away. But then I'm from Phoenix originally. And it was the same way there just with the summer. I mean, you'd come you'd you'd go into October, and you still get 100 degree days and you're like, seriously, like go away like you were tired of you. We want the cool weather we want the fall. So I feel like that could be anywhere you go. If you get those long seasons, you kind of get tired of them at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah nothing's perfect.
00:04:13
Speaker
Yep. Well, yeah. Hey, Michael, thank you for coming on, man. This is really glad to have you. ah You want to tell our listeners just a little bit of about yourself? Sure.
Proverb Exploration: 'Many hands make light work'
00:04:23
Speaker
So I, like I mentioned, originally from Texas, but relocated the Pacific Northwest a while back. um And my wife and I live I live outside of Seattle. We have six kids. um And I'm self-employed, run a small business here in this area. And I also, like many other people, write online. ah I write usually about men's topics related to fraternity, community, friendship, that sort of thing.
00:04:58
Speaker
Nice. um And we, ah obviously with our podcast, we always have a ah proverb on when we had spoken, you had selected one that we could talk about. And I'm excited to talk about this one. This is actually one that I'm very familiar with, because my dad used to say this one all the time when he was trying to to get us to get the kids to chip in, you know, help her out around the house. You want to ah want to tell us about it? Yeah, um the proverb we chose was many hands make light work. And i I like the idea of this, but i'm I'm curious. I don't actually know a lot about it. I'm curious what you think, what, if you guys know what the etymology is or the origin or where this kind of, where this came from, I have my thoughts, but. Yeah. You said you looked this one up, right? Patrick.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, I did. I didn't find a ton on it, but I did find that it was from ah ah John Haywood's 1546, his book Proverbs, which we've heard of him before. We've had several of his on there. yeah I don't know if you had a chance to find anything more than that, Andrew, but that's all I found. No, no, I i was not able to. I try to remember if I bought a copy of that, like a facsimile copy of that. I have to track that down. Yeah. Yeah. So English language proverb, these go back obviously 16th century, probably if it was recorded in a book, then that means it was probably in common usage long before that. So yeah, just ah probably ah an Anglo proverb from from way back. Yeah, I imagine it came out of the world where people were actually doing physical labor all the time, right? And, and when it made a lot of sense,
00:06:36
Speaker
practical sense to invite your neighbors or your family to ever have everyone chip in or pitch in, I should say, to to accomplish some ah some task that is just would be drudgery or impossible to do on your own.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah you you think of projects. I mean, you think of your daily work where it's ah ah single a single person kind of job. You're not a desk job. like it's It's all designed to be done by one person in your spreadsheets, in your Word document, whatever. But thinking of life then, you know these big things You know, you need to build a barn. You need to bring in the harvest. These are all, yeah, like you said, Michael, these are big things that just are impossible for one person to do in time. And so you need, you need many hands for those.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was ah in preparing for this when I was even using it with my kids the last couple days, you know, because we we are always trying to get them to pitch in and help. I have six kids as well. And, um and, i you know, it's, ah it's a good one. I like it. I think it's a I think it's an interesting one and one that makes a lot of ah um is is pretty, I mean, obviously there's not much to it as self-explanatory, but I think it it's very true. Mike, you mentioned you you you write about a lot of this kind of stuff, right? I mean, you write about fraternity, you write about ah community, that kind of thing. how How do you think this kind of relates to some of that sort of stuff? Well, I would say that ah perhaps because we don't have some of those big projects that we don't have that,
00:08:13
Speaker
we're not raising barns or plow on fields or whatever, that a lot of guys become very hesitant to ask for help or to um or to receive help, right? I mean, I don't i don't know how you guys, how your you know church or other community experiences have gone where it's like, is there anything I can do? What can I do to help? And people had kind of just like shrug their shoulders. that They're kind of hesitant to to have you get involved to that degree. And and so for me, it's it's a helpful proverb for two for guys to remember. I feel like all of us should remember that even though we don't have these big projects, we
00:08:55
Speaker
We do have other opportunities to help invite people into our, or to have men come into our lives, invite friendship, and have them work on other projects with us. So, ah I mean, one thing that one thing that pops into my head, and I'm sorry if I'm going off on ah on a crazy tangent here, but the technology use amongst kids, teenagers, right?
Parenting in the Digital Age
00:09:21
Speaker
I find it's really, really hard to,
00:09:25
Speaker
have have a rule for my kids if all of their friends have different rules. But to apply this proverb to 2024, many hands make light work. Parents, men coming together, making that hard, independent work, individual work easier by establishing sort of like group norms or or shared standards among among a group of of youth. I don't know, does that kind of Does that kind of help? Yeah, I think so. And ah with kids, it's a big it's a big one because ah you know I always try to like make sure that my kids are... are I mean, I just think one of the big dangers of technology is anti-socialization, right? Yeah. um I want to make sure that the kids are spending time with other kids and and and we I have such a big family, I think there's a tendency for them to just be like,
00:10:22
Speaker
stay at home, you know, whereas I sometimes as I want them to go out. Like maybe, maybe other people don't have this problem. They want to stay away from their siblings, but my boys tend to just play with each other. And then I'm like, you have neighbors, like, why don't you go? But if their but brothers are doing something or they don't want to play with them or they're being mean to them or whatever, they're like, I have nothing to do.
00:10:39
Speaker
I'm like, go go talk to your neighbors. like There's kids your age like across the street and next door. Just go go ask them. And they're like, meh, it's fine. i like i don't i don't know I don't know if that's a function of technology or what it is, but ah but yeah, I get it. Yeah, that that is interesting. It's a technology thing, or is it Is it just a socialization where they were they're just not used to going out and being with friends? Like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. um i So I'm a sales rep salesman by trade, and I work as a sales rep. and
00:11:17
Speaker
And one of the hardest things I found and in my profession over the years has just been kind of the solitude of it because you have a territory that you cover or a niche of the market that you did you are supposed to sell into. And it's it's a fairly um lone wolf kind of thing.
00:11:36
Speaker
And um I, yeah the the the company I'm at now is actually, I've enjoyed it more than anywhere else I've worked precisely because they really have kind of a team aspect of it. So they have a lot of like specialists and stuff that you can pull into to help on deals with. And I found that that kind of collaborative um aspect of it has really made my life you know it made my job much, much, much more enjoyable for me. And maybe I think some people might enjoy kind of the the loanne lone wolf aspect, but I really have found it a lot more enjoyable and rewarding to kind of work as a team. So I thought that was kind of a blessing to have to have a company that kind of values that. um
00:12:17
Speaker
How is it for you? with as like ah i mean You're like a solopreneur, aren't you? Or do you have like a team? or how How do you do it? I have a couple of people that I work with very occasionally, sort of like you know vendors or contractors. so But um what I've done to kind of, because I'm like you, I like working with people after a while being by myself just just isn't very fun. And so what I've done is I've created a couple of different networking and
00:12:49
Speaker
um kind of peer mentorship groups where other solopreneurs, other ah entrepreneurs can come together and we just talk about our problems and talk about different ways we could grow or or challenge ourselves um or talk about our ideas and having having that um opportunity to to get that feedback is is crucial because all the times, you know if I'm alone with my thoughts, my thoughts may be great or they may be awful, but having other guys to to chat about it with it is a big help.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. What do you think, Andrew? you're kind of a You work out in your basement by yourself, don't you? Or wherever you're at? i I do. I do. And for the most part, I do like it. um Sometimes i get ah it gets a little lean socially. I have an opportunity to teach a class at the local university once a year.
00:13:47
Speaker
And that that helps me get some some human contact. um Because you know my my current job right now is is pretty solo. that The types of documents I work on are are small enough that I can i can handle it myself. um I have previously worked on ones that were much bigger, these regulatory submissions. and And it was more of a team um more of a team approach. And and ah that was really nice. That was good to be able to To see this this principle, the the many hands make light work principle because that was really necessary for these types of things to hit the deadlines we needed.
00:14:24
Speaker
um So yeah, i don't I don't know. I haven't quite found the the right exact right balance for myself, but I think I err on the ah the the solitary side. Yeah. That's kind of what I figured. um But I kind of wanted to take it one direction.
Collaboration & Diverse Skill Sets
00:14:45
Speaker
um we you know many hands make like work and that's true if you're just like doing something and the more hands you have are better but but what about like specific skill sets of different people like and there's probably a different proverb specifically about this you know that we could talk about but what about you know bringing in people that have a ah skill set maybe where you are where they're strong maybe where you're a little bit weak have you guys had experiences with that
00:15:14
Speaker
I have had many experiences working with with people who are better than me at a lot of things. yeah but But yes, I think that's that's a really good point. like we're We're kind of all we're all specialists now. And um you know this this past year, I i needed to build um sort of an extra space in my house and for for for working.
00:15:44
Speaker
And I had no idea how to do that. ah my My handyman skills are are limited. and But I have a lot of friends that know how to do different aspects of that. And so it was great to bring in guys who ah who have that experience. And I could benefit from what they could do. And I can even learn from them a little bit um without just having to stumble through it all by myself.
00:16:16
Speaker
How about you, Andrew? Yeah, recently, we're we're doing a little, you know, sprucing up the the living room a bit, put down new floors. And my dad came down to to help but do a built in bookcase across one of the walls looks really great. And it's it was definitely out of my depth. And so um it was, was I wouldn't say he's a, he's a specialist in it, but he's got a lot of years and experience of experience and it was nice that I, you know, he could impart some of that to me. Um, but you know, when, when it did come to, we got a, one of the toilets kind of running i like, Hey, can you help, can you help me out with this one too? He's like, Oh no, I don't do, I don't do plumbing. So I guess I have to, I have to become the plumbing expert, I guess. And maybe, uh, maybe help him out next time. But that we've been thinking about doing, uh, shoving across one of our walls. I mean, we were just talking about that the other day, I'm going to have to send, uh,
00:17:09
Speaker
Uh, Papa Steven's up to help us out here. if you Got a good i IKEA hack for you if you, uh, are interested. Yeah. Isn't, isn't the group we're all a part of, right? Uh, I don't know if you guys have talked about exit in the past. I think you, yeah, yeah ah we're all, that's kind of the premise of that, right? Many hands, many dudes.
00:17:31
Speaker
coming together makes the load lighter might work. Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, we talk a lot about parent parenting on the on the show um since we're we're both parents and and you are as well. ah what do you What are your thoughts on you know imparting this kind of Value in your kids to to kind of help them learn To have that because you you mentioned about you know, ask me for help and and in getting people to help you and I thought that's I think it's awesome um Sometimes I struggled, you know imparting that in your children. They don't want to help they don't to do anything You know, they don't want to contribute like it's probably something everybody so struggles with but you either of you have thoughts on that and
00:18:13
Speaker
Well, I'll go first just because I haven't figured this out. So we'll let Michael give us some sage advice. because my line my Mine are still pretty little. So just just tonight, have this little they have this little ball pit. It's like four feet across and ah like a foot tall or something. And you know they had thrown a whole bunch of the balls out. And so we're trying to say, OK, let's all work together and put the balls back.
00:18:39
Speaker
and i just you know I just lose my patient like but with, with the youngest who's almost three. Um, and I was like, all right, if, if you don't, if you don't want to help, I'm going to put them away, but I'm going to put them away and we're not going to play with them again. And she was just, okay. Okay. We're not going to play. Okay. So, you know, not quite getting through to her, the, uh,
00:19:04
Speaker
any of the consequences, let alone the the teamwork aspect there. So we're still working on that. The the five-year-old is a little better with it, ah with with that conceptually. But what do I have to look forward to ah here, Michael, if you with with older kids?
00:19:21
Speaker
well i I will not claim any sage advice here. I can only say what, what we've experienced right in our family and what what kind of has worked. Um, my, my oldest is 13. So, um, I'm only just, you know, dipping my toes into the the teenage waters. Um, right okay but, but what, what I found in terms of parenting, um, that that's helpful, I guess sort of sort of two principles. One is.
00:19:53
Speaker
And this this I guess is it's possible because we homeschool and our our kids are home is we try to fill our kids' days with work. Like all the chores and all the things we can offload on them is just...
00:20:08
Speaker
it's it's out there, right? And and we do it ah for the second principle, for the purpose of of giving them a vision to buy into, right? Like our home life, our family life is something done together, right? Food doesn't magically appear, clothes don't magically appear folded and and washed in your drawers.
00:20:30
Speaker
um beds don't just magically get made without your assistance. Our house and our experience as a family is something that that is is done together. And so I can't say that that approach, you know I don't know how my kids are going to turn out yet.
00:20:47
Speaker
um I'll get back to you in 10 or 20 years. but But to me, that's key is like giving them an example and and giving them something to buy into and seeing a life full of working and helping each other. So those are my thoughts.
00:21:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I love that. um in having you know When you have a lot big family, it's it's really easy to notice how just inherently different each personality is. yeah like I have one kid, it's just you ask him to help working. Yep, no problem. He'll get out there and like shovel snow. He'll get out there and dig a hole, whatever. He's like, yep, give it to me. I'll do it.
00:21:24
Speaker
And then other ones are through you know it's like, just some of them are are more natural workers and some of them have to learn it. but but i mean And that's okay. um the One thing I will add there, my my own experience is I've battled with some some some health problems for the last couple of years, just like ah had had some back and neck problems and had a couple of surgeries and When I'm laid up and I've been that way a lot, a lot of hours over the last couple of years, just laying on the couch doing nothing, not having the leadership of you know leading by example,
00:22:01
Speaker
It has a negative effect like the kids even if you're trying to like be like, Hey, would you do this? Would you do that trying to verbally at least help out around the house trying to get the kids to help their mother, you know, if I'm not up doing it and leading by example, it it's much, much more difficult. So if you're physically able, I would highly recommend, you know, if you're trying to get your kids to do stuff, make sure you're up doing it too.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, thats that that is, ah they can cut you slack even for for health. I mean, man. ah they're they're they're They're a little dictators, right? you Yeah, yeah no that's I think you're right, though. I mean, you shouldn't you shouldn't ask your kids, do something you're not willing to do yourself. so Yeah, for sure. Well, I wanted to pivot and talk about talk about your book.
Men's Community & Loneliness
00:22:52
Speaker
Could we talk about that for a minute? Sure, yeah. Oh, go ahead.
00:22:57
Speaker
No, I was just gonna say, yeah, actually tell us tell us about it and and how you came to to write it and a little bit about what's it about. Yeah, well, I mean, it has ah has a lot to do with this this topic. um i I found going, you know you guys can probably relate to this experience where you have, like you go up through your youth and your college age years and you have a lot of friends, a lot of fun, a lot of things going on.
00:23:23
Speaker
Then you get married, then you get a job. And it's like, what happened what happened to any sort of camaraderie or friendship or anything like that? And and I thought when I was in my 20s and this was happening to me, I thought,
00:23:37
Speaker
um What's wrong with me? like what' What's going on? But then I realized that this is something that that a lot of men are are dealing with. And you know the broader the broader trends and so statistics bear this out that a lot of guys, you know they don't have friends, they they they're lonely, they they deal with different aspects of you know poor mental health.
00:24:01
Speaker
And so I started doing research and trying to figure out like what what um what could we do to ah fix this problem? What could we do to address this problem? And over the course of a couple of years, that culminated in um in the book that I wrote called Only the Weird Will Survive. And it's a it's a goofy title, I admit. but But it's meant to drive home the point that if you're a If you're a man in today's world and you're going to survive and thrive and have a network and have
00:24:38
Speaker
have, in in many cases, a family and sort of this you know generational legacy, then you're going to have to be kind of weird. You're going to have to do things outside of the norm and and sort of against society's expectations, which you know I'm sure you guys you know and you know see that as well. And so the book just kind of walks through like you know, how different steps that a man can take to get there, right? So they get to a point where their life is full of fraternity and, and friendship, rather than being kind of this lonely, you know, atomized guy living, you know, the the typical male life now. Does that, does that kind of, does does that make sense?
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um out of Out of curiosity, so what's the ah what's the weirdest like, and of what's the weirdest end of the scale for for being weird in your book? What did you what do you think? What's your what's your weirdest recommendation?
00:25:42
Speaker
Wow, that's that's a good question. I would say the weirdest would ah for a lot of people is is homeschooling for sure. Like, I live in sort of a homeschooling bubble, for whatever reason, where I'm at in Washington State, like everyone around me homeschools. And I forget sometimes that it's still a very rare thing. um But that that's definitely That's definitely one. But I think the thing that makes the most people uncomfortable is unless you have a very specific you know career in mind, don't send your kids to college. That's that's something like, whoaa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What else am I supposed to do? So that's probably that's probably the weirdest thing. OK. Yeah, that's that's definitely that's definitely weird in our in our culture for sure. Yeah.
00:26:35
Speaker
I was just having this conversation with my daughter, she's a freshman in high school, and I guess I was giving her the normie advice because I was telling her, oh yeah, you know go to college. So maybe you could tell me, if we could go off on a tangent a little bit here, ah what what is it about you know not necessarily encouraging your kids to go to college? Assuming, ah she's a very good student, assuming she could get some sort of scholarship and she wouldn't be saddled in debt, is there is there still you know reasons to avoid college?
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, I would say and, and, ah you know, some of this, I'm trying to and now replace myself back in in that part of the book to give the fullest context. putting on the spot here oh you're You're good, you're good. ah I would say that, you know, for me, it it has to do with preparing, preparing someone for adulthood and ah and specifically if if you want to be weird, right, and in terms of survival, multigenerational survival, preparing someone to be a parent and to to be a spouse and to be a parent.
00:27:37
Speaker
and when we look at college on the whole, it's it's struggling to produce that kind of person, right? that your your Your average college graduate is is not necessarily you know prime marriage material. And it's not necessarily just college's fault, but um it starts a little earlier than that, I feel i believe.
Education & Adulthood Preparation
00:28:03
Speaker
But giving exploring alternatives that allows someone, whether a, you know, a young man or young woman to get to, you know, young adulthood, confident, able to, you know, attract a member of the opposite sex, able to provide for a family or contribute to some sort of family business, contribute to a productive household. Those to me are the skills that I feel like I want to, you know, focus on with my kids and
00:28:35
Speaker
In many cases, I feel like college will will put a, I guess, hamper that, right? Like prevent that from happening. I don't know if that makes sense, but thats that's kind of my thought process is college is going to prepare them for, you know, email job. You know, do I, anyway, I'll stop talking. I'll let you react to that first.
00:28:59
Speaker
So yeah, um so two, I have two thoughts about that. Yeah, one would be, we talked about, you know, having them grow up to have a family. And both Andrew, and I think this is super important. We had Bennett on Kevin, ah recently talking about, you know, yeah Natal Khan, and, you know, the the the fertility crisis that we're we're facing. So part of me is like, oh, if they don't go to college, where do they go to meet other people their age to find their potential spouse, right? Because that's where I met my wife. And that's where most that's where most people meet. So that would be one one concern. um What are your thoughts on that? Well, maybe that maybe that that touches on even a weirder thing that I i discussed, which is
00:29:44
Speaker
um having having not not like arranged marriages that I don't I don't go there um but sort of be weird you know you don't just you don't just arrive there like we're not just gonna like have a range you know but but essentially like having ah
00:30:10
Speaker
having having a network of yourself like as a parent with other parents um that allows you to um recommend or try to set up, essentially facilitate relationships for your kids. ah Because I agree, I i met my wife at BYU, which it wasn't that long ago, but from what I understand,
00:30:37
Speaker
ah even the good colleges like BYU or BYU, Idaho are struggling to have that same sort of, you know, uh, marriage culture that they did, you know, 10, 20 years ago. And so I want to be, I guess, a little prepared. I want to have some alternative bill to say, um, in addition to college, like what can I do to help my kids meet people? So that's my thought on that.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's an interesting take, and and one that I've kind of wrestled with because, um like you said, it didn't seem like it's that long ago when I was dating, but it does seem like a totally new world now. um and And someone, oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, yeah, someone on Twitter said that they're my age, and they said they felt like they got the last chopper at a nom when they come to dating. You know, it's like, I don't forget who said that, but yeah, that's kind of how what it feels like.
00:31:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and I feel like um I've heard many people express that. And ah and i as I get older, something that I think about a lot, because someone someone wise told me about this and in a different context, is you know don't don't don't ah forget that your experience could just be survivorship bias, right? Like, you made it through. It worked for you. um But, you know, these kids, our kids are facing a different world. And it's not to say that everything is terrible and bad. And, you know, but what worked for us may not work for them at scale. So yeah,
00:32:14
Speaker
Andrew, do you have anything you want to add? I had one other question for and for Michael, but before I change gears, I wanted to see if you had. No, I mean, ah yeah, I think it's not that weird ah trying to trying to set set the stage for meeting, I guess meeting locally kind of is is the idea here, yeah depending on that kind of what what kind of broader community you're part of. Cause you know, that, that happened plenty. I know with, with people I knew coming out of high school and stuff like that, you know, there's a family at church that my parents, when I was ah a little kid, my, my parents would always joke, you know, or kind of like, Oh, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna marry her in that family. Like, right? Like, and, um, you know, we got older, you know, went to like a high school dance together and stuff. We never really dated, but she ended up dating.
00:33:04
Speaker
and marrying a guy who's also from our from church, you know, years later, you know, they just were able to connect locally and stuff. And so I mean, it does happen, it can happen. um And it's good to set um make that make that a possibility for your kids and for the other kids in your community that they can find someone locally, and they don't have to go off to to college to do it like I guess all all of us did. what Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm in Washington state. I wouldn't have met my wife otherwise. So but yeah, I want one more quick thought on that is even if it's not like pairing off locally or anything like that, it's I think, and you guys tell me if if you think I'm wrong here, but I feel like a lot of times we don't
00:33:55
Speaker
We don't really tell teenagers or young adults the truth about dating or truth about attraction and what it means to be attractive. And I think just actually including that in your life preparation is for kids is is vital nowadays. They're not going to get it from anywhere else. No one else is going to tell them the truth.
00:34:16
Speaker
so Oh man, don't get me started on that. I will hurt everyone's feelings. I have strong opinions on this sort of thing. But like, when you have people who are just like, they have no concept of, you know, ah being physically attractive or making themselves appear better than they could, you know. um ah we've We've had Tanner Guzy on the podcast and he's a men's style coach for those who don't know. Go go back and listen, but ah Tanner, he's fantastic.
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah, he's great. And he's I don't know if it was him or for someone else. ah I think it was him saying he most men are leaving like two attractiveness points on the scale of one to 10, just by not trying hard enough or not putting in putting any effort into it. So so yeah, I 100% believe that that we need to be honest with people, even if it can ruffle some feathers. Yeah. Well said.
00:35:09
Speaker
Okay, so my other question I was gonna have with you about, about ah well, first of all, I wanted to tie that back with the with the proverb, because I do think that relates, because um what I definitely don't want for my kids is to have this,
00:35:24
Speaker
you know, friend situation, like the show, where everyone's just kind of but getting older and nothing's happening. It's like, that seems like it just a just a unique hell that started in the 90s, maybe. And seems it became very common to be like, oh, we don't push our kids to get married, whereas generations before were like, hey, we got to get these kids hitched. let's let What can we do? And the parents were involved, and they were like getting things happening making things happen. And then it became very taboo to do that. So maybe you're right. Maybe we need to go back a little bit Well, it's funny. And I'm sorry, one more comment on that. Like, I think about like my own family history, my mom, ah her, her parents, my grandparents did not want her to go to college because they feared it would interfere with her ability to get married.
00:36:09
Speaker
And so that yeah, we're just Full circle, I guess I don't i don't know. so Yeah Yeah, but like yeah, like like I said pulls it back to the proverb many hands make light work You can leave your kids to their devices and hope that they you know Finding ah a life partner a spouse is the most important thing they can do in my opinion. Yeah, and We can leave it to themselves and to chance or we can all get together and see what we can do to help them Yeah, exactly and and it's You know, it's it's just one of those things like if you if you leave with a chance, like, you know, before, probably you could leave with a chance, but you leave with a chance now and it's, yeah, bad news.
00:36:50
Speaker
Okay, um my other question for you, still kind of on the college thing. um And I'm very curious to hear because you have a a different lifestyle than I do. I work a corporate job, right? um I've tried my hand at a few ah entrepreneurial ventures with limited success.
Entrepreneurship vs Corporate Life
00:37:06
Speaker
I feel like I yeah fit fit well in a company where I can go and most of the stuff is done for me, the payroll and then this and that. And I have a very specific thing that I do and I'm good at that thing and I could just go do it. And everybody else does everything else. So for me, it kind of seems like, well, maybe college was the right fit for me because I can go into a company and just bring whatever skills that I have and I don't have to try to do everything myself. Being ah being an entrepreneur is daunting to me.
00:37:33
Speaker
So um but maybe it's that way to me too. Yeah, because because I was weren't that route. Maybe I could have learned it otherwise. I don't know. What what do you what do you think? Well, I mean, just to share a little bit of my my history, I I went to college, I got a graduate degree, I got an MBA, probably the most useless, fake, you know, graduate degree there is. But but but in that, you know, I worked in corporate for a while and um before I tried my hand at entrepreneurship. And ah I would say a couple of things like, you know, and being in the entrepreneurial world, I realized that most entrepreneurs are actually not that smart or talented. Like some of the dumbest people I know own a business. And um and i almost it's almost to the point where
00:38:31
Speaker
I wonder if intelligence is ah like ah a limit like a it's it's actually a con to starting your own business because you're too smart, you know how it's going to fail, you know the different dimensions of of why you shouldn't do it, whereas you know other people are just like, I'm just going to do it. ah For me personally and and um
00:38:58
Speaker
The one reason I feel like I had to get out was for a lot of these sort of same reasons, right? The reasons to be weird or the reasons to ah to try to make connections so that my life you know can be a ah ah fulfillment of the proverb, right? Like many hands make light work in the sense that when When I was in you know in a corporate environment, I had to sacrifice a lot of myself in order to fit in there and and sacrifice a lot of my own goals.
00:39:35
Speaker
in a way that entrepreneurship, um owning a business, being in a even in a small business setting, there's not that same conflict. And ah you know just to give you an extreme example, I worked at Amazon, it's corporate headquarters here in Seattle. One of my favorite stories to tell is that and in Amazon, you're allowed to bring your dog to work. And so when I was at the office, there were dogs all around me.
00:40:02
Speaker
But don't you believe for a second, I was never able to bring my kids to work. Never. Like, this is not a thing. um And in that way, it's like I want to have a lifestyle that that allows me to to blend family and work. And I don't believe it's the purview of smart or talented people. I think it's it's in it's in our blood, right? Like your great grandparents were almost certainly entrepreneurs.
00:40:31
Speaker
your great, great grandparents with like way fewer resources. And I'm not like trying to, you know, call anyone to put in a spot, but I just feel like it's, it's actually all of ours. It's our inheritance. It's our opportunity. That's my take.
00:40:46
Speaker
yeah You're probably right about. I've had experiences where I've seen people. I've observed people in my life, entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs. And I've looked at them like that guy is a moron. Yeah. And for lack of just being blunt, I'm like, how in the heck is that guy running a three million dollar a year company? This is insane to me. He seems like he's got a double digit IQ. He doesn't like how did he figure it out? I like so I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.
00:41:18
Speaker
um Andrew, what what what do you got? Anything ah on that before we move on? ah Well, i guess I guess I have heard of this this phenomenon. I think it's actually like documented that people overthink. I'm a big overthinker, and that causes me not to act. right And so people who are not overthinkers are willing to just try it, even if it fails. Then they get right back on and and try the next thing.
00:41:46
Speaker
um you know Hopefully they learned from that mistake, but um but yeah, just that repeatedly going out there and trying things seems to be the key to to their success or at least to a lot of people's success rather than um coming up with the big idea and and just thinking about it and thinking about it and thinking about it before executing. and and that was um That was just what everyone did right before we invented 401Ks and and yeah
00:42:17
Speaker
you know Stock options, I guess. Yeah, it was much more, I mean much more necessity there, right? and You just kind of had to make it happen, had to take care of the the survival.
00:42:31
Speaker
And I suppose there's fewer excuses now. I know we're still going, this is another tangent we're going off of. This is the the episode of tangents, but there it it all kind of relates in that, in thats um you know, there's never been a better time to have many hands help you, and you know, with like the group that we're all part of, exit group and, you know, other entrepreneurial groups where you can bounce ideas of other people. It seems like the internet has allowed that to to be readily available. has it and and And you've mentioned that as well, right? Yeah, I mean, um I think about the, in terms of being never never being a better time, like, you know, my
00:43:18
Speaker
you know to to compare once again to our our our ancestors, right? Like their failure was like life or death. And our failure now as entrepreneurs means, well, like I gotta go get a job, right? Or I guess I'm on unemployment, you know or I guess I'm in a couch surf or whatever, right? Like the stakes are,
00:43:40
Speaker
are lower in many ways and the resources that we have are are higher. um Yes, like, you know, exit group, lots of different resources online.
00:43:53
Speaker
There's even a lot of you know business coaches and franchise opportunities available out there, like like business in a box you know opportunities. or It's like, here, we've done all this hard work for you. And some of those are kind of scammy. But ah but some of them are are legit in that.
00:44:10
Speaker
ah you just have to execute, you just have to manage a business rather than be a genius and come up with this never before thought of idea.
00:44:21
Speaker
so And um i I feel like even in my role as you know i said ah being out and about kind of working on my own, I have a lot of freedom in my current role. So even if I were to decide to stay where I'm at, the the thing that concerns me about you know working a corporate job as opposed to, you know and and a corporate job that it aligns with my values. I don't have any issues with anything. you know I'm allowed to you know speak, be normal around my coworkers, which is great. That's nice. um But the thing that, that
00:44:57
Speaker
I kind of wish I had a little bit was kind of what you mentioned, where's the blending the family more. And I have even taken my daughter to work with me. So I can do that a little bit. But being able to kind of teach my kids alongside me, like if I had a family business, they could work at the family business, you know, and that's that is kind of one thing that I yearned for a little bit to teach them a trade to teach them a skill to teach them how to work to teach them rather than me just being gone all day and then I come home at dinner time.
00:45:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a worthy goal, right? Like it's, it's the natural state of living, I think too, where, you know, especially your boys, uh, you have sons, I, yeah. Yeah. One daughter and five sons. Oh yeah. One daughter, five sons. Yeah. Yeah. Five boys. Um, so, I mean, it should, it should, uh, I feel like it's probably the, it should be the privilege of every boy to like work at some point alongside their dad and in some meaningful capacity. Cause, you know, I think.
00:45:52
Speaker
I think about my own experience growing up. I think it's hard to know what it means to be a man, right? And what it means to to have success and and honor and an association with the guys. of you you just You never see it modeled in your own family.
00:46:11
Speaker
So, yeah's but it's tough. Like really like most of modern life is just not set up to provide those opportunities to young boys. It's like almost set up to provide the opposite experience.
00:46:24
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. um Well, you've given me some stuff to think about with a lot of this. I'm going to maybe next time my daughter tells me that she may not want to go to college, maybe I won't be like, no, you should maybe I should won't encourage her. Maybe I'll be like, you should talk to my friend Michael. He's got some ideas for you. yeah But maybe I should sign like a, you know, a disclaimer, like a waiver and a liability just. yeah Yeah. Yeah. I won't hold would you liable if she ends up a bum. OK. No, I think, no you know, I think I think, um you know, I think good people will end up in good places just by, you know, the cream rises to the top kind of thing. So whichever path
00:47:09
Speaker
um the smart, hardworking kid with whichever path they choose, I think they'll be okay, typically. But yeah, definitely, as a parent, you want to help them facilitat facilitate anything you can to help them get where they want to go. Oh, yeah, 100%. Okay, yeah. So, oh, sorry, would did you have something Andrew there? Oh, I just want to, um since we're wrapping up, Michael, where can people find your book?
00:47:38
Speaker
So ah ah another another aspect of just- You eschew the Amazon ah juggernaut, don't you? Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. It makes it so much harder, but ah um i couldn't I couldn't a good conscious, have you know having worked at Amazon, write a book about community,
00:47:55
Speaker
and then publish it on Amazon. is I couldn't hear myself will do it. So I published it through a self-publishing place called Lulu dot.com. And ah that that's ah only the weird will survive if anyone wants to find it. It's it's there. And I'm sure if I had push it on Amazon, I would have sold more copies, I'm sure.
00:48:21
Speaker
Well, it kind of kind of as we're as we're kind of wrapping up here um is if you if you could give like a couple of pieces of advice to let's say men out there because that was kind of your your the target of your book sounds like right. Yeah.
00:48:39
Speaker
um if If you could give them a couple pieces of advice on how to build that community, how to get those other hands involved in in maybe some of their projects, um or to offer a and a helping hand in in other ways when when they're not used to that, they're they're they're used to living in their little silo, sitting on their couch at at night away from other neighbors. Their neighbors aren't doing the same thing in the house next door, but they don't talk to each other. um you know Do you have a a couple actionable items that you might be able to do?
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I would say the the first thing is is to, one, realize that it's going to be weird. It's not going to feel natural. You're going to feel more comfortable sitting in your silo watching the game or playing the game or or whatever, right? um But ah so I think that's important that there will be some in resistance that that you will face just yourself. But in terms of of actionable things,
00:49:35
Speaker
um i I would think that I have seen a lot of guys find success with is finding a project that is meaningful to them and um and bringing in other people
Meaningful Projects & Community
00:49:52
Speaker
for it. It's an excuse to talk to other people. It's an excuse to call them and to get them to come to your house or to go to their house, whatever it is. That that project can be like like it was for mine, like fixing something up at my house. It can be starting a like a side business of some kind. It could be um another thing that that I've done personally is build a rite of passage out for my son and inviting the other,
00:50:18
Speaker
dads of of boys that age into it. um And so so finding something meaningful beyond just like a consumer activity to as a good, you know, ready excuse to and to bring other guys into your life is is the biggest thing. um I don't know, that's kind of maybe two or three different things wrapped up under one piece of advice. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's that's I think step number one.
00:50:48
Speaker
No, it definitely does. And um I've met people before, guys who are just extremely like outgoing and they'd show up at your house and ask how you're doing. And you know yeah and I will say that it's it's much weirder. It was not that weird on the receiving end. We always think it's going to be weird because they're going to think we're weird for doing it. It's not that weird when some guy just shows up and is like, oh, yeah, OK, yeah, come on in, whatever. it's it's But we feel like it's weirder than it then it probably is being received. Yeah.
00:51:17
Speaker
I agree and as an introvert myself, I totally agree. I'm sure I way over perceive it as weirder than other guys. Yeah, what do you think about, last question, what do you think about um online interactions as opposed to in person? Because I have ah you know have ah Twitter groups, ah Instagram group chats, ah online gaming sometimes with with buddies, I haven't done that in a while, but but I used to do that. um Is that a suitable replacement? Is that an okay piece of it it? Should you make sure you have some in person? What are your thoughts on that?
00:51:55
Speaker
my My personal take, and and you guys you know feel free to have a different, I want to hear your thoughts too, but like my personal take is um online can't be a replacement. It can be a catalyst. It can help you make connections with people you otherwise would not, who can totally be a part of your community or help you and make your work light right by contributing what they what they have. but i I, my personal experience and from viewing what other people's experiences are, it's totally un unsatisfactory as like the main like social link that someone has to other people.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I kind of feel the same way. i i yeah i Social media has always been a distraction for me, so I've contemplated just cutting it out entirely. But at the same time, I have made good friendships there that have sometimes turned into, in real life, you know, friendships. I'm reluctant to cut it out entirely, because I do feel like it, like you said, it can be a catalyst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had to, social media, like I'm, I don't know, um I can be totally addicted to scrolling. I've had to,
00:53:07
Speaker
put put in some constraints essentially to make sure that I use it the way that I wanna use it rather than be used by it, so. Yes, yeah, I think that's important. Well, hey man, thanks so much. This was a really good really good conversation. Any ah any last plugs you wanna tell anybody where to find you or and anything you're working on? No, I mean, feel free to, um if anyone wants to connect on on Twitter, I mean, i'm I'm there and I'm happy to,
00:53:32
Speaker
to connect there and and use that as a catalyst, right, to to connect offline. So yeah, on Twitter, I'm i'm Michael Peroni, just by name, so. Okay, and then ah ah and it's got links for everything else there, your book and everything? Yeah, my book is linked on my profile, yeah. Okay, perfect. Hey man, thanks so much. This was a really good conversation. We really appreciate you coming on. Yeah, thanks guys for the invite. It was a pleasure. Alrighty, we'll see ya.
00:53:58
Speaker
There are only four things certain, since social progress began, that the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mind, and the bird-pooled bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire, and that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin,
00:54:26
Speaker
as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the copy were the idiots with terrors