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Tis Better to Have Loved and Lost Than Never to Have Loved At All
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In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss love, loss, and pet dogs.
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Transcript
Introduction & Host Greetings
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter return
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello everybody and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast.
Weather & Family Chit-Chat
00:00:32
Speaker
If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying, proverb, or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom from these old proverbs that's relevant today. I am your host Patrick Payne and with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you today, man?
00:00:56
Speaker
Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? I'm surviving, doing okay. We had so much snow today. It was ridiculous. We were all shoveling forever. How about you guys? Oh, we just had a little bit, just a couple inches maybe. And I wouldn't be surprised if it rains overnight and just washes it all away. Oh, really? But the kids had time to make a modest snowman, so they got something out of it.
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, but we we just kept getting we just kept getting buried. Like we'd go out and shovel and get it all done. And then it would come right back. You know, it's like one of those rehab. Yeah, like a three or four shovel, you know, day, but this we were getting dumped on. But how's how was everything apart from that? How's the family?
Valentine's Proverb Discussion
00:01:43
Speaker
Good. Yeah, everyone is is healthy this week. Having a having a good week and Yeah, it's good. We've got Valentine's Day coming up. my My oldest is very excited for that in her class and giving giving those out to her friends. So looking forward to that. She had her little party tomorrow at school.
00:02:05
Speaker
yep does she have a Does she have a Valentine? Does she ask someone one to be her Valentine? No, this this is still the ah you know the the it's more for like the girls. right has that she made for her her Her girlfriends and the boys are all you know they are undeserving.
00:02:24
Speaker
so that's kind of this right now but they They're very egalitarian though. They it's ah the party you know they they bring one for everyone. and you know, sign it. So everyone gets one from everyone. So yeah, but, but she, you know, she and her friends were passing out like extra ones to each other this week. I feel like the boys at that age only care about the candy. As long as they get candy, they're, they're happy. Yeah, exactly. So.
00:02:51
Speaker
Uh, yeah, Valentine's Day coming up. Uh, we, uh, have a proverb that's some, you know, apropos of Valentine's Day, I think. Yeah. I was, I was, I was talking to about my wife for, well, she asked me, you know, what's the proverb this week? You know, uh, have you picked it yet? And I said, Oh, I hadn't picked it yet. This was at dinner.
00:03:11
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And so she's like, well, are you're going to do a Valentine's one. And ah maybe ah like I thought, well, you know, I'll look at the ones that have about love, perhaps. And, you know, rather rather than go, you know, to overboard ah talking about romance, I did find one with love, but I think it's it's a broader, a broader one. So ah the the famous is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." So that is the that's the proverb this week. It's from Tennyson.
Origins of Tennyson's Proverb
00:03:51
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Classic. Alfred Lord Tennyson. And it's it's from his very long poem in Memoriam AHH, which he wrote
00:04:04
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um over I guess the course of 17 years, I think took him a long time. But this was about ah inspired by his one of his best friends, Arthur Henry Hallam, who who died of a brain hemorrhage at ah at age 22. So they were young, young men, young friends. And so this was really a big blow to him and so it stuck with him for you know for years and years and and was inspired this poem which is not I mean it's very long it's a it's let's see 133 cantos um and it it ranges all over just it's you know about life it's very philosophical but a lot of it's about grief and love um and so the
00:04:57
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The stands that this comes from is, I hold it true, what ere befall, I feel it when I sorrow most. It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
Proverb's Application in Life
00:05:10
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Yeah. um i I was like Tennyson. I haven't read his stuff in years, but probably not since being in school. But when I would take literature classes and stuff, he seemed to be one of my favorites. um But this one, yeah, I should go back and reread this whole one because I read you know some clips of it when you when you sent me over this one. But ah yeah, this is a This is a common one. I mean, this is a popular one. I think everyone's probably heard this one at some point or another. um it's it's a It's a tough one though, because it doesn't always feel that way. Right.
00:05:50
Speaker
um For those who've experienced loss, sometimes it seems like it and and a might depend on the kind kind of loss you're talking about. yeah yeah You know what I mean? um If you had a friend die or a beloved pet or something like that, you you might feel this way. What about though, you know if it's a failed relationship or something, do you think that's still...
00:06:17
Speaker
applies here i guess seems yeah I guess that's that is a good question that's and that's something I hadn't necessarily thought of I thought you know in the sense of death which which this poem deals with um but yeah people do use this one especially when they're kind of I don't know quipping, I guess, like, if your friend has a bad breakup, you know, you're like, well, you know, someone you might say this to them, as kind of a way to just get over it, man, just, but so yeah, I'm not sure, like,
00:06:47
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um I think, I think generally, though, it is true, um that the sense that that love and And having loved has created something bigger than then the loss.
00:07:09
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um And and and we can we can explore that. Maybe like I can figure out a better way to you know talk about it as we talk about it here maybe. But um but yeah, i think I think it is ah it is better even even in something like that. you know You're better for the experience if you got I don't know if bad, bad relationship, but you know, like you got burned or something and just like, in in a different sense, it's better that you, you learn something from it, you, you've grown. And at the very least, you won't make the same mistake again, kind of thing.
00:07:53
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Yeah, I feel like I've heard it, like you said, in ah like a rebounding
Love and Loss of Pets
00:07:58
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someone, you know, like someone they've had a breakup and it's like, well, it's better to let you know. And I don't think it always applies in that case, but it's certain, you know, as it was written, it was not for that context, even though I think it's used quite often that way nowadays, it was for, you know,
00:08:17
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Not a broken love, not ah not a broken hearted situation, not ah a love that died or or something. you you know love that continued, but a person passed or something like that. yeah so So in that context, I think it applies much better, and I think it's much more true in that sense. I just had a ah friend I was talking to just ah this week who lost his dog, and it was a kind of a beloved family pet, which is why I mentioned that, because I was just thinking about that. And and know he was kind of talking to me about this incredibly sick
00:08:52
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dog that he had and and not sure what to do. if you should the The vet was a ways away. So he didn't know if he should pick this pick this sick dog up, the larger dog, put it in the car, drive him all the way down. The dog was uncomfortable and pain. So he's like, I don't know what to do. you know and um He decided to go for a little walk and clear his head. And by the time he'd come back, the dog had passed on his own. So I was like, he felt like that was kind of a kind of a tender mercy of the heat. The dog passed on his own. He didn't have to you't have to take it in. And you know dogs hate going to the doctor just like everyone does. They don't want to have to go there and be put down. you know Passing peacefully in their own little dog bed is is better. So i I think in that sense, if you if I were to ask him,
00:09:37
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Was it better to have 10, 12 years, whatever he had with his with his his pet? I mean, I don't think there'd be any question there. Yeah. it's um And that one's interesting. I think it's something, I don't know if we got to talk about it with with one of our guests earlier, Andrew Edwards. I i know I've heard him talk about like dogs in particular, and we talked about dogs with him um because of his book. but But like but yeah that sense, like with pets, with animals, like you are signing up, you're you're signing up for grief when you yes when you get a dog right because you are gonna outlive that dog, I mean, almost always, right? So so yeah, like you're you're signing up for all that good time, for all that love, but you know that there's gonna be a heartbreak at the end of it, but you but you do it anyway. People you know tend to keep getting pets, they keep getting dogs, and they
00:10:33
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because there's there's something worthwhile in that companionship and that love that the dog gives you and um and brings to your family. so um But it's it's it's odd when you think about it that that you're kind of signing up for that every time.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're 100% right, and I think there's no other, there's probably no surer way to invite death into your life than by getting a pet, you know? Because you may outlive your family, you may outlive your siblings, you may outlive, hey, you may you know, um or or they may outlive you to where, you know, you don't yeah have to experience that is what I meant. and But I mean, if you get a if you get an animal, it's almost certainly that they're gonna go first, and and you're gonna have that experience. and ah with kids too. I mean, that's usually their first experience with death is losing a family
Historical Perspectives on Grief
00:11:24
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pet if if they have one. um It was for me. I don't know. What about you? Yeah, I think so. you Apart from the goldfisher thing or whatever, but I think, yeah, our dog, my sister's dog that that we have when I was a kid, I think that was the first
00:11:42
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You know, I may have had, I guess, I think I may have had a grandparent who died first, but I didn't really know that grandparent very well. And I don't even think we went, at least we kids didn't go to the funeral or anything. So yeah, it was, but as far as like a creature that's close to you, that I think that was the first.
00:12:04
Speaker
ah yeah my My sisters had cats growing up. I think I only had one dog um but my sisters had a lot of cats and that was the first time I experienced death and birth like cats gave birth so that my my first experience with you know the circle of life there was with these pet cats and so um I know this proverb isn't specifically about animals. We're going down this track. But yeah, that's kind of where my mind went first because of you know I had this friend who had this experience recently. And and yeah, I think any any pet owner would wouldn't trade the time they had with their pet just because because they they ultimately lost their dog or or something like that. and And certainly for Tennyson, this close friend of his, which now I'm curious, I want to learn more about this,
00:12:55
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i'll Probably read the whole thing later. Yeah, he died. He died suddenly abroad and And yeah, it was like a brain hemorrhage aneurysm. I don't know but like um So it wasn't you know wasn't in a war or I don't or anything. I don't think it was think it's just kind of Happened it was unexpected and I think that's its own kind of You know different different circumstances have different kind of flavors to them, I guess, as far as you know what what well grief it brings. um And so this one is is kind of a particular one, I think. Someone's you there one day and just gone the next with no so preparation.
00:13:45
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Yeah, this one could be especially hard, especially if it was like, my mind goes to like the loss of a child. Yeah. Because that's one of the probably one of the worst some of the worst grief you could have. and But I don't know. I mean, i if heaven forbid, something like that were to happen, i you wouldn't ah you wouldn't regret having the time with your kid, you know? No. The the love you have with your child, is even me if if if it's cut short, is certainly worth worth the pain, which is crazy to think about because that's, that's an intense pain. Yeah.
Modern Views on Poetry & Grief
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah. It's, it's hard to balance, you know, all that, um,
00:14:26
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although the wonderful times that happened while you were together compared with the grief of, of a life cut short and the the loss of potential the loss of future companionship. So yeah.
00:14:41
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Yeah, incredibly hard. what do you Do you think this is one that that is generally valued yeah nowadays? or or is this ah
00:14:52
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when people I mean, you hear people say it, but do you think people believe it or are they paying lip service to it? um
00:15:01
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Yeah, I think, you know, after you brought it up, I think people I most often hear this, you know, about like a a breakup or something. But when it comes to comes to death, um I yeah, it's his pretty pretty universally accepted. And I don't know that I've really run across people, you know, quote, counter signaling this one, right? um Not that I can think of. And I think that's probably why this, why this strikes such a chord, why Tennyson is like this line is remembered so well, ah is because he he tapped into something very true here, I think. Yeah, I think so too. And
00:15:47
Speaker
I think the fact that it's used in my estimation incorrectly by, I think it kind of cheapens it. Because I don't think that, that you know, you hear it, you've heard it that way a bunch of times. I mean, there's probably like sitcoms that have used this, you know, where the main characters are break up and their friend consoles them with this line.
00:16:11
Speaker
But that's not what it's about. It's not about some some you know high school girl that dumped you. hu but that's yeah is Is that worth it? I don't know. Maybe you should have just left her alone. Maybe she was you know not worth the not worth the trouble.
00:16:24
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um
00:16:27
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But yeah, it's I think it's it's not talking about that. I think it's talking about it's but talking about true love. It's talking about real love of ah of a family or a really close friend. that you didn't stop loving them. You didn't grow apart and then, oh, that was a nice relationship I had for a while. I dated someone for years. No, I don't don't think that was that's that's it. I think it's it was a true love that was cut short, you know not by your own actions. Yeah. Okay. Can we talk for a minute about like
00:16:59
Speaker
was this a common thing for men to write poems about other men that they were friends with? ah now Nowadays that does not seem like a thing that would be done, but maybe maybe it wasn't that common then either. And it was just, this guy was just a, you know, he's a poet and kind of a unique character. Yeah. I i don't know. I think it's perhaps a you know, a sampling issue here where you've got, you know, these these British poets who all, you know, sensitive guys go into the Oxford and Cambridge and stuff. and And they're the ones who are writing these types of poems about each other. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's well, I will say it, ah I'd say it's more common historically than not to have ah to express that kind of affection about a friend.
00:17:51
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ah So I'd say we're our age right now is probably the the the aberration compared to.
00:18:03
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Aberration compared to you know this time I'd say I'd say it's. ah People were not probably like looking at this funny or anything like that when they read it. So you think we're the ano um anomaly now? Yeah. it's it's Okay. um I do think that there's kind of a ah cheapness built into our society now and a lack of depth. Yeah.
00:18:32
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And if someone were to write a poem about anything now, it's almost seen seen as as weird, you know? Yeah, yeah. That's true. especially ah Especially a sincere one. um I don't think you're weird, Andrew. I know you write poetry, and I like yours. So I did not mean that as a slight to my... I know, it's a weird thing to do. Trip it host. No, I don't think it is weird. I think just some people think it is because nobody has any, you know, our society's devoid of meaning.
Changing Perceptions of Emotional Expression
00:19:00
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But um um
00:19:03
Speaker
Well, I guess it depends what you how you define it as weird. Is it just you know unusual and uncommon for the day? If that's how you define it, then yeah, I guess it would be. But um no, I don't think it should be something to be looked down upon at all. um I've written a couple. i Not super recently, been a couple of years. um Maybe I should do more.
00:19:26
Speaker
yeah and Yeah, and I think maybe even more people will do like, you know, write songs or something, right? Which is the same thing. It's just ah definitely more acceptable to write a song than a poem by itself, probably. That's what I was gonna say, is the song is the socially acceptable way to to get your poetry out. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, this goes back, like, you know, think of, you know, Homer, right? The Iliad or Gilgamesh,
00:19:55
Speaker
We've got these very old epic poems about that have like this um these types of themes of ah of love between friends and and like grief when one of them dies. So I think it's a very old and ah storied tradition. And and i think this one was I think when I was reading about this one in particular, this poem that was released um that it was one of Queen Victoria's favorites and it helped her get through the death of her husband.
00:20:33
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um And so I think it was relatable to a lot of people just ah broadly. Yeah, I think so. I mean, ah coping with loss is a just a very, you know, common universal human experience that's been going on forever. Um, what year did he write this? Uh, I want to say it was between, it was like in the, ah it was over like 17 years is what I read. So I think it was like around the 1840s, 1850s. Oh, he wrote the poem over the course of 17 years. yeah So he wrote it from 1833 to 1849. It was published 1850. Oh, wow.
00:21:20
Speaker
So he started it right after his friend died and he worked on it. You know, I mean, it's thousand, like over 2000 lines long. So it's a very long poem that he adding to it over and over. Well, that's good. It showed anonymously initially too, which he was already a poet, a poet, um, pretty well known. And initially he did this one anonymously, which is kind of interesting. He wasn't doing it for fame.
00:21:46
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah. I mean, I can understand that sometimes the the ones that are most meaningful, you might not want to it to be, you know you might not want it to be a commercial success or anything like that. You might just want to have it rest on its own. But yeah, I mean, so if you're working on a writing project and it's taking you a long time to finish, just just think just think of old Al, you know? Yeah. just He wrote this banger in 17 years.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. You just need some some family money to to rest back on. and Don't we all? Is that what we all need? To work on our love projects. Yeah. So I guess one what one aspect of this though, you know we talked about, when it's talked about like for breakups, it's kind of like a rebound type thing.
00:22:37
Speaker
yeah um But I think it still has like a rebound message, but for for grief after death, like what do you think um what do you think in in that regard? like um moving on or um Moving on sounds kind of cold, but i think i mean but but it is True, you are you are moving, you gotta keep going, and you gotta keep living life. And so, this this idea of moving on after a loss, ah what do you think about that?
00:23:13
Speaker
should you get another dog? is are is there Should you get another dog? No, it's a very good question. um yeah ah Yeah, moving on does sound terrible. I don't i don't like the way it's worded. But that's what you that's what you say, right? I
Embracing Love After Loss
00:23:30
Speaker
mean, there's another way way to put it. But yeah, it does sound kind of cold that way. But but no, I think it's um you shouldn't close yourself off from the possibility of another love. That's for sure. Right. Right. That's the message, right? but Absolutely. Yeah. that that lot the The one love, you know, was worth it, and future loves also will be worth it. Yep. The next one will likely will be too. Yeah. Because, you know, when you think of, like, the like the death of a child, right? Like, I know that that's very
00:24:05
Speaker
that can break a lot of like marriages, especially depending on on whether there's other children, but like deciding to have more kids after you've had a loss, like that's a really hard thing in it. There's a lot of feelings, I understand, from people I've talked to who've experienced that. like that You know, you don't want, like you know you're not trying to replace your child, but it There's just like this kind of thing in the back of your mind that like am I trying to do that? Like so, you know, there's that aspect same with like getting remarried if you if your spouse passes away like This idea of replacing and and I don't think anyone really it's funny because I don't think anyone really feels like that's what they're Trying to do but everyone's worried that that's what they're doing. They're doing right. Mm-hmm
00:24:58
Speaker
Sometimes timing can be can be a ah part in that too. Yeah. um I've heard people question people's decisions if it's very fast, you know, there seems to be a socially accepted period of time. Yeah, ah grieving time or something like that. um But yeah, generally speaking, but there, I mean, in our culture, I don't know if I guess it's it's maybe far enough away that i I don't know of it, but like yeah in many cultures, there's like ah a grieving period, right? Like a mourning period. And so that was the socially defined mourning. And once you're out of that, then you're free to go back and and no one can look down on you for it. And that may I think that makes it easier on people when when they can say, oh, well, we're not in you know he's not in mourning anymore, so it's okay now.
00:25:52
Speaker
um ah hundred percent but i think But I think in in a know kind of the British tradition, I don't know that it's ever really quite as defined. I don't know. Yeah, I think the end of the grieving period probably brought a lot of freedom and a lot of, you know, I, you know, you've paid your respects to this love that you have. You'll never, you'll never, never be gone from you. But now you can guilt free, move on to the next, the next stage of your life.
00:26:22
Speaker
um You know, and ultimately, if you think about the, the one who that left you behind you know and a loved one that passed away or something, typically they wouldn't want you to wallow. Right. I know I wouldn't. If I passed away and someone was sad about it, I don't know if anyone would be, but we'll see. um um I would want them to be moping around. I'd want them to go get another owner if it's my dog. you know
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:06
Speaker
yeah i should I should say, I don't know. if I'm the best to talk about all this because I've had, we've had two dogs since we've been married. One has died and we just have one now. I have not gotten a new one since the one died. So I'm still not quite, still so ready still figuring it all out. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:27
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, ah ultimately this one has has some has some good wisdom. Some good wisdom isn' it in it. it's ah it's It's just a reminder to focus on the the good that you had and not focus on the the end of it or where the painful painful period at the end, you know?
00:27:51
Speaker
um especially if you had a full, if you had a a long time, I mean, a full life with someone, um, harder in Tennyson's case, like when it was a, a life cut short or ah a deep friendship that was expected to go on probably his whole life and then didn't. Yep.
00:28:10
Speaker
Like I said, or the death of a child or something like that, that would be really, really difficult. But, but like I said, ah ultimately no one would give up their best friend. the the The time they had with the best friend or the time they had with a loved one just because it cut cut short. So yeah, that's, I think that's valuable to remember if difficult at times, probably.
Episode Wrap-Up & Farewell
00:28:35
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:28:37
Speaker
It's a good one, man. Thanks. Yeah, I'm um'm i'm glad we're here we're having a little bit of a delay from Valentine's since this one got a little somber. But yeah, it's a good one. It's a good one to talk about. I don't think we've talked in depth this way about about death and grief before. So this was great.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, ah that's about, we're about out of time. But yeah, thanks ah for bringing this one out and bringing this one to us. This was an interesting one. And thanks everybody for listening. We will see you guys all next week. All right, we'll see you. All right, bye. There are only four things certain since social progress began
00:29:32
Speaker
that after this is accomplished and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sin, as surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the copy were hideous, with terrors or tortures