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Queerness is a Gift
2.2k Plays3 years ago
Queerness isn't without its challenges -- many of them serious and potentially harmful -- but at the same time, it's also a gift, one that forces us to look inward and get to know ourselves, one that connects us to a likeminded and supportive community, and one that helps us build the tools to survive and thrive as we move through the varied challenges life throws at us.
In our season 3 premiere, Alex is back and joins Rob to discuss our Pride experiences back in June, how the pansexual movement has been beneficial in making bisexuality more inclusive, the wide spectrum of gender non-binary identities (and how those with cis-passing privilege can use it in solidarity), the special relationship between bisexuality and trans/non-binary identities (yes, again), and the trouble with "chasing". We're also answering listener questions! This week we answered Qs about bi-romantic aces, what "bi-dentifiers" we use in the world to signal our bisexuality or queerness, what media is in our "bi head canon" right now, and more.
Expect episodes on a more regular basis this season! And stay tuned for some bi-conic guests! (And apologies for the poor audio quality on Rob's end -- we're trying out a new system this year, and the issue has been fixed for future episodes.)
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham (formerly IFP)
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Transcript
Season Three Excitement
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to season 3 of 2 Bye Guys. I am Rob.
00:00:18
Speaker
And I'm Alex. Yes, you did it. We didn't even process that. I'm Rob, you're Alex, and we're back for season three. How about that? I can hardly believe it. Can you believe it? It's been a while since we've said those words in that order.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a while. It's been a bit.
Pandemic Impact on Podcasting
00:00:34
Speaker
It was a lot of time between episodes last season due to that thing that happened last year that shall not be there. Yes, the thing. And I've barely seen you in the last two years since the pandemic. I mean, virtually, we've seen each other. But it's weird. We used to see each other every week at Fire Request. And now, I think I saw you once in the pandemic.
00:00:58
Speaker
In LA, we met at Griffith Park. We met up there, and it was like really nice to see you in person. And then that was probably like a year ago. When was that? Last September? Jeez. Yeah, that was no, even longer. That was like last... It was like before the summer? Early summer. Yeah, late spring. Like May. Yeah, it's just been like a really, really long week since then.
00:01:22
Speaker
So how have you been lately? What's new with you?
Personal Challenges and Growth
00:01:26
Speaker
How's life as we're kind of coming out of this thing that shall not be named, which we kind of are. We might be going back into it, but we're kind of coming out. We'll leave it unnamed. We'll leave it unnamed. We are shifting into a new phase of life.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, things are shifting for the better as I think and hope for everybody to some degree. Yeah, it's been an exciting year and also like a really hard year I think for a lot of people, myself included.
00:01:59
Speaker
But yeah, this summer has brought out some revitalization that was much needed, I think. Yeah, for me, I know I had a very hard winter and spring with I had a couple of deaths in the family, unfortunately.
00:02:15
Speaker
uh, including my father. And it was just, um, yeah, it was just like a lot, but, uh, yeah. Also has kind of lent, uh, lent itself to a whole lot of reflection that has just been like good in other ways too. Yep. Yeah. It has been quite a year of reflection or more than a year. Yeah. Like pause takes that kind of time and evaluate what we all want going forward, hasn't it?
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah.
Podcast's Role in Bisexual Conversations
00:02:46
Speaker
Well, and I think, I don't know if we've said this to each other at any point in the last year or so, but it's also been really evident to me that the conversations we've had on this podcast and all of these conversations about bisexuality and intimacy especially, it's sort of at a standstill at various points in the last year and a half in my own life, right? Yeah.
00:03:10
Speaker
which I think is natural, right? Because we're seeing less of people, we're having less experiences in those ways, right? So it's also been very interesting to think back on that, and also very exciting to feel like that's not the case as the summer has been progressing, that we're starting to kind of re-enter the world again like we used to be, and a good time to start season three.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Well, I was just going to say, I think that's very true in a way, like my by education and immersion and community was sort of like stalled and put on hold and like, you know, I didn't get that feedback from by request once or twice a month where I meet a new person who had a new perspective or learn something new.
Listener Feedback and Future Topics
00:03:54
Speaker
Although Buy Request does continue virtually, you should all come. It's great, open to everyone. And I do learn stuff at the virtual ones, but not quite in the same way. You're not really immersed in the same way. But another thing that I have noticed,
00:04:10
Speaker
the last few months is people are still discovering this podcast and reaching out to our social medias and you know it may not be new to us now the stuff that we talked about on season one but it is still new and vital for a lot of people as thank you for writing in a lot of people have just written in and that really and told us like
00:04:31
Speaker
how much this is meant to them or how seen they feel or like how it's helped them come out and not to toot our own horn. There's anyone talking about this stuff is contributing to this and is doing great work. But the messages have still come even like this month, you know, every month that we've installed.
00:04:50
Speaker
the messages come in, and that has sort of encouraged me and us to continue this and keep going, because I think, you know, we've talked about a lot, but we've kind of barely scratched the surface in a way, because I think the more you dig, the more there is, so.
00:05:07
Speaker
by 3.0 this year. We're going to do some 3.0 topics that are so complicated, nobody even understands it. Yeah. Well, I feel like we've had a couple of episodes where we're just scratching the surface at a specific topic. I remember a conversation
00:05:24
Speaker
And we won't get into it today, but asexuality and my own sexuality at that and in experiences of others in the spectrum. We had a 10-minute conversation or something along those lines, right? But it has been something that I've been thinking a lot more, not solely about myself, but in respect to just a broader ace community.
00:05:46
Speaker
Correct. That's on my agenda for today. We're going to come back to that because I want to talk about that a little bit. Love it. I mean, we'll always scratch the surface again for a few minutes because we got a lot to do today. Well, it sounds like we'll be able to get to some questions that folks have sent in a little bit later on too, which to your point, getting those kinds of
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah, seeing those answers, those questions come in has been, it's exciting. It's exciting to be able to feel like we can engage in conversation with the worldwide community a little bit again. Indeed, indeed.
Personal Updates and Projects
00:06:21
Speaker
And I've been good since I last saw you. Things are nice. My writing's going pretty well. I got married since the last episode to my partner, Moxie Punge, former producer of this podcast.
00:06:34
Speaker
um i love maxi very much we survived the pandemic together it was really nice to have have each other through all that yeah so that's that's the biggest change for me and it's also interesting because i started this bi oral history project about bi men who are married to women i started it last summer during the pandemic i was unmarried and and like you know really wondering about what it's like to be married what you know how do these men navigate this and
00:07:03
Speaker
The project is going great. I'm continuing it. I'm actually turning it into a book proposal and I'm trying to pitch it like that. It's ongoing. I may reach out to more of you who have written into me to interview. Hopefully I'll get this book deal. But I don't know, something I just, I guess I've been thinking about is like,
00:07:22
Speaker
you know, it didn't change everything in a day. I don't know if there's like a bi thing, but it's it made me realize that like even something binary like being married is actually kind of a spectrum and yes the label is married, but like you know our relationship is just shifting and I don't know it just it just goes to show that a label of a relationship does not necessarily tell you everything about it. Like it's just been an interesting experience to
00:07:52
Speaker
to dive into something like coming out as bi that I imagined changes things. But actually when you're inside of it, you shift the way you want to shift. You don't shift in ways you don't want to shift. It's been nice to experience that and to get an understanding of that.
00:08:10
Speaker
Well, and to not be bound by that label any more than you're bound by any other label that we've talked about here. Sounds very on brand for Rob. Very much, yeah, exactly.
Pride Experiences During the Pandemic
00:08:23
Speaker
Cool. So we're a couple of weeks after Pride, but that was a big milestone in our lives for multiple reasons, I think.
00:08:33
Speaker
For me, one of the big reasons was because it was the first time I was going to go out and be in places with lots of people, potentially without a mask. But before I get into that, how was your pride this year? What was it like for you?
00:08:49
Speaker
I'll briefly speak to the fact that last pride, ironically, I went to the queer liberation march. And that was kind of like my one outing. Do you mean last pride as in lockdown pride? OK. Yeah. Well, because it was different. It was very protest. And I was not there for very long. But yeah, it was like I had also just come back to the city. So it was strange to then go from
00:09:14
Speaker
that and kind of defy all of the mandates that were sort of out there in a sense that I will defend as safe within reason. Outdoors with a mask I think was safe and protesting is something we must do. It's as important, you know, it's very important and I went to protest last summer, I felt pretty safe.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And that march specifically was like a specific collaboration between Black Lives Matter and Pride in the ways that I think we just needed as a community. So that was worthwhile. This year was like less so. This year was...
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, I speak to last year because it's probably more enjoyable to hear about. But no, this year I actually had a very content pride personally. That content pride just meant not going out at all. I very much overlooked all of the standard pride events.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I didn't even really, I probably saw more of my empty apartment than any other month in a long time actually. But I want to make sure that with that being said, it's framed that I work with LGBTQ youth every
Mental Health in the LGBTQ Community
00:10:32
Speaker
day. I work with LGBTQ people at The Trevor Project every day. And for me, I think
00:10:39
Speaker
the last year, Weber said it before, but it's led to a lot of reflection. And I think for me this year, in a time when folks have not to be a downer, but I think it's worth stating that LGBT folks have been struggling at higher levels in the past year than ever before in my lifetime, by certain measures, by certain metrics.
00:11:01
Speaker
and specifically in regards to mental health. Mental health and mental illness rates have skyrocketed this year in ways that needed to be acknowledged. And I think for me, it was really important to allow my colleagues who wanted to enjoy pride, go enjoy pride and advocate for everybody to go do that. And for me personally, to lend as much time and service to the people who were just
00:11:30
Speaker
deserving of a pride and maybe couldn't access a pride because of their own mental health state or their youth. Like how does a 14 year old enjoy the month of June? It's not the same, right? A 14 year old by a guy is not going to be able to enjoy pride in the same way. So yeah, so I don't want it felt that like I had a bad pride because I think I just had like a very more mindful kind of celebration for myself.
00:12:00
Speaker
But yeah. Well, pride is like a double-edged sword. If you're in a place to celebrate it, that's great, and that's what it's for. And if you're not, it can almost be worse to see that going on when you're not in the space to celebrate it.
00:12:15
Speaker
I don't know, I think I think that's great. But that's what you did, because like, you're, you're in that space, and you can provide support and comfort for, for people like that through your work and in other ways. And so, you know, we don't have to like, go, go, go all the time and like, celebrate, celebrate all the time. Like, it's good that you just listened to yourself and what you were ready for and how you could give back to
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of the label of marriage and I'll defy like the bounds of what we consider pride, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, while you were providing support, I was in a crowded, sweaty dance hall with a bunch of shirtless men.
00:13:00
Speaker
was lovely okay um no i so i mean i did the queer liberation march two years ago my first pride was three years ago i was in the real march the pride it was crazy there was so many people last year i did absolutely nothing i don't think i went i don't even think i was in new york for pride last year i i can't remember and then this year it sort of coincided with
00:13:24
Speaker
the time that I was feeling ready and comfortable to go out again. Like I was vaccinated in April and I started seeing friends and seeing people in small groups, but I had not like been to a bar without a mask. I had not been to a club.
00:13:43
Speaker
And everyone was planning, all my friends were planning to do that kind of stuff on pride. So I was like, okay, this is going to be it. This is like the test. We're going to try it. I think that Friday we went to a bar that had like 50 people in it and I went inside with no mask and for like a minute it was weird. And then I got very used to it and it was like,
00:14:04
Speaker
It was like it always used to be, and it was super fun, and it was great. And then I had a rest day. I hung out with some friends in the park, although that didn't really turn out to be very restful, because it's still social interaction time. At the end of this weekend, I was dead from social interaction. I realized
Post-Pandemic Social Adjustments
00:14:23
Speaker
after a year and a half of not seeing many people, even sitting in a park with five people is a lot of social interaction.
00:14:31
Speaker
But not to mention, the last night of the weekend, I think Sunday, I went to something called Pride Palooza, I think, at Three Dollar Bill, this club in Brooklyn. And it was great. We had a great time. But it was a lot. It was big. There were thousands of people. And at first, everything was outdoors. They had this big outdoor space and a DJ and everything.
00:14:57
Speaker
But then I didn't realize at 10 p.m. like they can't be outside anymore, I guess, noise or something. So so everything kind of moved inside. And we tried dancing inside. It was like packed, like shoulder to shoulder. Most people had their shirts off. It was very male. Like it was a fun party and it was kind of queer, but it was like male, gay, male dominated. There was some gender fluidity more than I've seen at some of these parties. But like
00:15:27
Speaker
not as much as I've seen at others. And it was it was very intense in there. I think I spent about 10 minutes at the indoor dance floor and then just like went back outside and chatted with people. But it was fun. It was good. It was like nice to be with a bunch of queer people. Although when I was outside talking to someone I met that night, a friend of my partner, I said I was bi at one point. I think I was wearing like a bi headband or something maybe.
00:15:57
Speaker
And they commented on it. Oh, is that the pie flag? And I was like, yeah. And then he was like, kind of being nice and supportive. He was trying, but then he said something like, Oh, do you find it easier, like to be by or something like that?
00:16:14
Speaker
I was like, in my head, I was like, no, no, like, people don't people think that by privilege is easier, like, because I could just be with a woman if I wanted to be. And so that's easy. But like, no, it's not easy. It's, it's very complicated. And there's no models for it. That's why we do this podcast. And like, it's, you know, it's, it's hard, it's hard. But all I said was like,
00:16:40
Speaker
I don't think of it that way like I just am by like it's not I'm not by because it's easier or because it's harder I just am um and I don't know he didn't really respond much to that answer but uh but that was all I could think of to say in the moment it was like well it's not about easier harder for me anyway that was just a weird moment but most people lately are pretty supportive but maybe that was just such a gay male like gay cis male environment that
00:17:09
Speaker
Maybe that's why I got that. I don't know. Well, and I also like from my own experience anyways, and maybe you feel like this is true, but like we were quarantined for a year where we probably didn't like intentionally expose ourselves to like lacking like, you know, a lack of biliteracy, you know, the folks who just didn't understand folks. Yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker
So I feel like it is kind of a thing that we have to like remind ourselves because I haven't faced many of those little microaggression moments in the last year and a half, right? Right. Because I'm around like bi people, queer people, like very queer leaning communities.
00:17:50
Speaker
Right, we haven't been in those spaces. And likewise, that guy hasn't probably been in many spaces where he would come across a bi person, even though there are so many more bi people lately coming out, especially young people.
Bisexuality Representation at Pride
00:18:04
Speaker
But when are you going to meet them in quarantine, especially if you're not seeking it out intentionally? Those random run-ins at a giant club were not happening until recently. So I set them straight a little bit. I set them bi.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, there you go. But yeah, I don't know. It was a nice pride. Did you see bisexuality celebrated in pride at all this year? I mean, I saw it a little bit. I went to Pride Fest down by Union Square on one of those days in the afternoon with
00:18:39
Speaker
my sister and her girlfriend, and there was a decent amount of buy flags and people in buy shirts. I definitely noticed it. It's still a small percentage overall, but I noticed a decent amount of buy stuff. Did you? No, I definitely, I do feel like the spike, I almost noticed, and maybe just because it's the more notable change was trans flags being out everywhere. Yeah.
00:19:08
Speaker
Just because there's been even more erasure, arguably, of the trans community in past prides. But yeah, I think both trans and, but I did feel like a notable shift towards bi and trans communities this past year, which is good. I feel like that does lend some credence to the belief that there's more thoughtfulness going in to these events and folks. Yeah, I think people have done some good change.
00:19:38
Speaker
in their organizations, in their event creations, all of those things feel more thoughtful this year. Yeah, I agree. I do see more inclusivity, targeted inclusivity, and having those flags there, and the pan flag too, and the trans flag especially, I've seen a lot. Yeah, inclusivity is in.
00:20:01
Speaker
It's just in this year, right? And that's sort of, I feel like that is like, I say that almost sarcastically, but it's also like, I think that people can make money off of like actually appearing to be inclusive in new ways, right? Like Black Lives Matter signs, depending where you are, like get you more customers and more like loyalty. And I think the same thing is true with.
00:20:24
Speaker
buy flags, trans flags, pan flags, right? Events. I mean, fuck doing that to make money, but better than not doing it. And what you're doing is including more people. And so whatever, if that makes you more money, it's not a good reason to do it. But hopefully we'll have a good overall effect anyway. Exactly. If the effect is there, we can acknowledge the positive effect.
00:20:53
Speaker
and also like, yeah, maybe a question they're reasoning a little bit.
Bisexual and Pansexual Identity Relationship
00:21:05
Speaker
So this leads quite nicely into our first topic of the day, a topic that I have been wanting to discuss, which is a little bit about this bi-pan stuff and then I want to get into gender fluidity. But let's start with a little bi-pan discussion. And I know that we have discussed this before and we've kind of talked it to death.
00:21:27
Speaker
But I want to bring it up again because I saw some tweets that I loved. So I don't know if you've all heard of Shiri Eisner. We've talked about her on the podcast, especially last season that Jacob Engelberg episode. So Shiri Eisner joined Twitter sometime a few months ago. I think she had been on it. She left. She's back. And I know Twitter is kind of can be a hard place to be, especially if you're like,
00:21:52
Speaker
queer activists, you get a lot of bad takes, you get a lot of hate, you get a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about, thinking they know what they're talking about. But I still have loved Shiri's presence on Twitter. It has been really amazing to see her wade into some of the
00:22:10
Speaker
like tired tropes about bi stuff that that appear over and over on twitter and to like offer her perspective she wrote notes on a bisexual revolution bi notes on a bisexual revolution amazing book highly recommend she's like an activist and scholar on this stuff she's great
00:22:28
Speaker
Now, what one of the things she tweeted, I actually can't find the tweet. So this may not even be her, but it but I've been thinking about it ever since I saw it. And it was something about how like, you know, when we when I as a bi person talk about bisexuality, I like to say that it has historically been trans and non binary inclusive.
00:22:49
Speaker
And that like, yes, pan can mean pan means inclusive of all genders as well. But bi has historically meant that too. And I think what I implied when I have said that is like, we don't need pan. And I don't want to imply that. I think that was wrong for me to imply. And I wouldn't have said that. I mean, I think people who identify as pan, that's great. I do. I identify as both. To me, they're very overlapping.
00:23:17
Speaker
But what Shiri or somebody tweeted, I can't ascribe it to her because I can't find the tweet, was basically like, no, a lot of bi people have been open to trans and non-binary attractions for their whole lives.
00:23:33
Speaker
but historically the bi movement has not been explicitly open to that. And that's why the pan movement kind of started and has pushed bi to do that explicitly. And so it's actually really good that the word pan and that label came into existence
00:23:54
Speaker
Because the bi movement, I think, has responded very well, has kind of said, hey, actually, most bi people are interested in people of all genders, too. And that can be part of the definition of bisexuality. Bi does not mean two. Bi means one or more. Or two or more. Two or more. No definition. Two or more. One would be monosexual, which is not bisexual.
00:24:19
Speaker
But, like, so to the bi community's credit, we've moved the needle and now are making bisexuality explicitly trans inclusive. But, you know, to say that it's historically been that way is not actually true. And she also tweeted two things that I want to read. She said,
00:24:43
Speaker
Here to say that bi-pan solidarity is a thing. Bi isn't inherently binary, and identifying as pan isn't inherently biphobic. Wasting time debating etymology instead of talking about our oppression is useless and unnecessary. Could not agree more. Like, I do think we waste time talking about like,
00:25:05
Speaker
why these are different and you should use one or the other. You can use whatever you want. They're both great. And Shiri also tweeted, historically and currently, many cis bi people have been more open than other cis people to dating trans and nb people. Many bi people are trans and nb.
00:25:24
Speaker
Knowledge and practice are created through our relationships and in turn feeds back to bi-cultural openness and exploration. So I don't know, I just like where her head's at on this. And we can be open and honest about the history of the bi movement.
00:25:43
Speaker
And we don't have to make up that we've always been inclusive of everything as a movement, but we are moving in the right direction. The community and the movement has always been open-minded, in my opinion. That's sort of something that defines it.
00:26:02
Speaker
um and and right like everyone with a fluid non-binary sexuality or gender like it is so much more important that we stand together and find common ground than that we divide ourselves up like identify how you want that is great whatever describes you but at the end of the day we're in a movement together yeah that's no i appreciate all of what do you think
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, no, I appreciate all of that. And I think as you've been talking, yeah, I think the one point that ironically, or strangely enough, stands out to me the most that you said is the idea that this is not an essential conversation for common dialogue with folks. When I'm just talking to people about what bias, they don't need to understand all of the flaws in
00:26:58
Speaker
various protests in the past, right? That's not important. And I think it's the same thing with... That brings me to this idea that I see this conversation very akin to the conversation about white feminism. And do you see white feminism talks happening in every space that is trying to be more affirming of people of all genders and sexes? No, but
00:27:22
Speaker
Do we also need to at some point acknowledge that Black women have been historically left out of feminist conversations for literally a century? You know, more obviously. You know, it's not so different. And it's not about. Yeah, it's not about like the movement being like flawed at its core. It's about the movement needing to evolve and thankfully evolving. Right.
00:27:48
Speaker
Right. Right. Exactly. Right. Like we can do both things at the same time. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. And we can like, we can stand together and fight and talk about our mutual oppression as all like non-monosexual people. And we have to fight back against patriarchy, against
00:28:04
Speaker
white supremacy against like biphobia and panphobia whatever at the same time we can sometimes talk about like bi and pan and the movements and like making each other better and sort of making sure that like we are more inclusive uh even if like perception is not reality like we can have those conversations as long as it doesn't detract us from the this movement that we're
00:28:31
Speaker
that we're pushing towards the movement of solidarity to dismantle all those systems of oppression. That should be number one. And then these interesting little spats between us, fine, but let's not get too distracted by them.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, well, and keep it in the family, like keep it in the by like that's that's by people's problem. It isn't by plus people's problem, right, including pan people. Yeah, but it's like do straight and gay identifying folks need to be a part of that conversation. Really? Like, no, like, you know, not at all. You know, they can help us get the word out, obviously, and everything. But yeah, I think that's a really valuable thought process to carry as a community.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, cool. Well, and this is also very related to the other thing I wanted to talk about today, which has just been on my mind a lot in the pandemic. Sorry, the thing that I won't name. And just especially lately, like,
00:29:34
Speaker
but just gender fluidity in general and trans and non-binary identities and the relationship with bisexuality. I feel like I'm seeing it more, hearing about this more, especially from young people.
00:29:49
Speaker
like it was something that was on my mind at Pride at this party because like I think two years ago I went to a specific like trans non-binary gender fluid party and it was so fun and everyone in there was like gender bending in some way from small ways to big ways and then and then I noticed at this party of pride that like there were a few people
00:30:14
Speaker
presenting their gender in non-conformist ways, but only a small percentage. And my partner, Moxie, is non-binary and was dressed kind of femme at that party. And I was so proud of them. It was great. And I felt very lucky to be there with them because I like that. I think I've always been attracted to people
00:30:35
Speaker
kind of somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum whether it's like more masculine women or more feminine men or just like any kind of non-binary presentation that combines shit um like i saw like you know bearded women at the at the party two years ago i thought that was really cool um but i don't know i've just been thinking about a lot because of because of my partner and
00:31:00
Speaker
What is the relationship to bisexuality? Does fluid sexuality open up more space for fluid gender? Does fluid gender open up space for fluid sexuality within relationships or just within people you know? I don't know. That's been something on my mind. Have you thought about that at all? Does that make sense? Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
00:31:24
Speaker
No, I think I've thought about it in very different, I feel like I've had similar conversations with folks just in a different context because Trevor actually, we do an annual survey of our youth and one of the questions, or one of the findings rather,
00:31:43
Speaker
this year released recently public knowledge. Everybody can kind of look this up and see more. But was that one of the findings was that one in four queer identified LGBTQ identified young people does identify as non binary in some form. Right. One in four. Yeah. And like one in four is like a huge number. Right. And that's why it stood out to me when I heard it, because I think
00:32:12
Speaker
We're starting to learn a little bit more about what non-binary actually means, all of the different ways that folks can be non-binary. How many folks do I know personally that use he and they pronouns or she and they pronouns and identify as non-binary and try to make that a real
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah, let's try to verbalize that part of their identity. Make sure that the folks know about that because it is helpful to them in understanding and presenting their gender effectively or truthfully rather.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, I don't know if you've had similar conversations about that, just diversity within that community. Totally,
Evolving Thoughts on Gender Identity
00:33:00
Speaker
100%. Actually, you've touched on exactly what I was going to say next, because that's exactly what I've been thinking of. And it reminds me of when you and I first met, maybe not when we first met, but as we got to discussing stuff, I remember we talked a lot about how
00:33:18
Speaker
you and I were both pretty comfortable in our male-ness. Like, as identifying as man, like, I feel like a cis man. I never felt dysphoria. I never felt uncomfortable with my gender identity in my body. But at the same time, the more I learned about bisexuality and queerness, the more I kind of don't care to be identified as a man. Like, it isn't a vital part of me. Like,
00:33:45
Speaker
it's neither uncomfortable nor necessary and like in some ways i don't like what masculinity entails in many ways and especially like as it relates to patriarchy and like being dominant and on top of a chain like i fucking hate that
00:34:02
Speaker
uh and so you know i think you and i have talked about like might would i want to use they pronouns like would i feel comfortable doing that you know do i want to come out as non-binary like i wrote a play during the pandemic about non-binary person who presents very masculine and and like
00:34:24
Speaker
you're right about how there's different types of non-binary in this and it's all it's a it's a big spectrum out there and uh like my partner moxie's non-binary identity is very different from you know if i were to to do that like it's very different from me because like they do identify as trans they have felt dysphoria um and like i want to read this i want to read this um instagram post that i thought was really good because
00:34:54
Speaker
It identified sort of at least one major difference in different types of non-binary people. And it's like a call to action. I want to read it because I've been thinking about a lot. It's from an account called Transsexual Dreamboat. Transsexual 2S, Transsexual Dreamboat. And the post says this. I'm just going to read the whole thing. It's a couple of slides.
00:35:19
Speaker
if you use she they or he they pronouns and don't identify as trans.
00:35:27
Speaker
this is for you, consider putting in the work to insist that people also use gender neutral pronouns for you in work settings, private life, and public life, especially when in exclusively cis places. If you identify as non-binary but have cis privilege, which would be, I mean, I don't identify as non-binary, but I'm thinking about it, but if I did, I would have cis privilege. Practice challenging gender-based assumptions in all the spaces you occupy, not just the ones that feel easy.
00:35:58
Speaker
Our trans siblings or those of us who use they-them pronouns exclusively are exhausted and isolated by having our identities constantly disrespected, invalidated, and not taken seriously. It's a privilege to be able to use multiple sets of pronouns without feeling dysphoric, and not everyone has access to being able to shapeshift their way out of transphobia and binary-based violence.
00:36:21
Speaker
You might have more capacity than others to challenge transphobia and set the groundwork to protect those who are the most marginalized among us. For example, I use he and him pronouns almost exclusively now, but will still make a motherfucker they me if they get a little too comfortable seeing the world through that cis vision. Love to see the she-they's and cis adjacent people turn up for trans liberation and put in the work.
00:36:46
Speaker
So I love that and I identified with it so much because my partner uses they them pronouns and like I think they they switch to exclusively using they them during the pandemic and as we've been seeing people in person
00:37:02
Speaker
people have been fucking up and getting it wrong and they know that that they use they them but they will still say he and like i correct them moxie will correct them but it's like annoying and and to me it's annoying right but to my partner it's produces dysphoria and it can be traumatizing and so like it is fucked up and i try to step in whenever i can to correct it but like
00:37:28
Speaker
I don't hear it every single time. I'm not with them at all moments.
Challenging Gender Norms
00:37:32
Speaker
And so it makes me, you know, in solidarity almost, like I want to change the way people look at the world, which is still very binary. They're not used to they, them. They're like, it takes people a while to wrap their heads around it, which is fine. It can take you some time, but like,
00:37:52
Speaker
Gotta wrap your head around it eventually. And I kinda feel like sometimes I wanna use they just to push people to do that, right? Like that post said, to push people to not look at the world this way. And for me, I could do that without dysphoria. And I try to do that when it comes to my partner, but I'm starting to get annoyed enough that I wanna do it myself and just push the cis straight people I know in my life
00:38:20
Speaker
to like knock them out of calling everyone he him or she her and like knock them out of seeing everyone as one of these two genders. It's like it is getting kind of exhausting.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, this is a complicated conversation for me, I think, in some ways, because one, to immediately respond to one thing you mentioned, a person very closely related to me did want to ask, and I think it's worth flagging here, so everybody listening is aware too, that there was this concern over, well, why don't they just have a different
00:38:58
Speaker
set of pronouns that's not plural too. And it's, let us just say clearly that many folks go by pronouns that are gender neutral, that are not they them. There is Z's, ears, ears. There are other pronouns that have been kind of tried and tested over the years on a larger scale.
00:39:20
Speaker
it hasn't picked up the seam in, I think, the way that people seem to want it to have to make their life of not having to see they them as singular to make that easier for them, I guess. But just let it be said that they them, theirs is now the easiest to implement in gender neutral pronoun. So we are going to stick with that, most likely on a large scale.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah, and it's not that hard. I get that it tricks your brain because it's plural and it's not singular, but you will get it quickly. If you are with people who you care about and you practice it a little bit, you can get it.
00:40:08
Speaker
Another episode we should talk about two-spirit stuff because I'm learning more about that and I think it's fascinating but I don't know enough yet to talk about it right now but this this stuff has been around and not only around but celebrated not stigmatized like that's a gift not some kind of curse and like in modern society it's difficult it's not
00:40:29
Speaker
I'm just saying it is a gift, right? The non-binary or gender non-conforming folks that I know, they have understanding of themselves in the world in ways that many cis people simply just don't. And I don't want to say that universally non-binary people are better than cis people, right? But they are.
00:40:49
Speaker
We could advocate that as a non-binary person. You don't have to say, but it's true. I'll argue it any day, but just DM me if you want to have that conversation. No, I agree. Non-binary people are very special. It's a gift. I think it's great.
00:41:07
Speaker
Well, because it it forces a level of like reflection, just as I think the both of us have have been through in some ways, right? Right. That's why I think queer people are better than straight cis people in certain ways, because we've done a lot more work, you know? Yeah. Right.
00:41:24
Speaker
It allows you to break free of the labels and the boxes and get in touch with yourself and figure out who you really are without constraints. And that is not easy to do in this society we live in. And if you are able to do that and come to a non-binary or trans identity, that is like a superpower, honestly. I identify as cisgender. I have always identified that way.
00:41:53
Speaker
for the most part, similar to you, I think I was like exploring they, them pronouns at a certain point. But point being, I want to kind of briefly speak to my experiences with that.
00:42:04
Speaker
just because I think it's important to... I want this podcast to be an advocacy platform for non-binary bi people. It's really important, I think. Of which there are many. Many in the bi community identify as non-binary or trans, and there's so much crossover. Okay, go ahead. Well, and I say that because I think it's important for folks who don't identify as non-binary to talk about
00:42:28
Speaker
times when they've considered a non-binary identity or considered they-them pronouns because there's a difference, right? Like it's not like this is a phase, this is an exploratory thing. Like I, for example, explored they-them pronouns because I was feeling really frustrated with the binary that exists. I was feeling really frustrated with the ways in which I felt like if I were to walk
00:42:52
Speaker
around and heals, I would be assaulted. Those kinds of feelings of uncertainty. There's a lot of femmophobia just wrapped up in that too, but internalized in other ways.
00:43:06
Speaker
But the point being that for me, it just ended up not being important at the end of the day. I realized that for me personally, and that's why I said it was a complicated conversation earlier, because I think this idea of using they them pronouns, even if you use he him pronouns to say,
00:43:29
Speaker
It's hard because I don't want to claim an experience that I don't relate to fully. And I don't want to claim some historical oppression that is not mine to claim. And in fact, I am a cis man. I don't have any right to claim non-binary identities. And when I realized the amount of privilege that I still had, the amount of passing privilege I would still have,
00:43:56
Speaker
I think it became really hard to feel comfortable with the idea of using they them pronouns. And I also realized that much like you, and I think we've said this very clearly to each other on here, being a man means absolutely nothing to me. I think it's important.
00:44:13
Speaker
for me personally to just like to live that gender identity where I yes I'm a cis man and also I will paint my nails and if I'm in feeling safe about it I'll wear heels I will you know do whatever I want because I think there are absolutely ways that in an ideal world I would be presenting far more feminine.
00:44:36
Speaker
And also it's far easier to present as masculine. So I default to that 99.9% of the time. But I say that just because I think often non-binary people get treated as though they're just kind of like making some political statement.
00:44:55
Speaker
And it's not that. I am doing that within my own identity. And the experience of claiming that identity as your own is just something wholly different. And you're taking on a much larger. It's not just some fun niche thing you get to say about yourself. It's a very
00:45:18
Speaker
I agree, but I want to push back a little bit because if there is a wide spectrum of non-binary identities, maybe there is room for somebody who wants to identify that way for political purposes. I don't know if we want to say that's different categorically because if that moves the needle and makes a non-binary society or pushes us in that direction, I want that.
00:45:48
Speaker
And so, but I guess on the flip side, I feel exactly like you. I mean, we have a lot in common and some things not, but we have a lot in common, which is like, I do feel like a cis man and I don't want to claim an identity that isn't really me and that I don't have the right to. However, I do want to look for ways to smash the binary and to knock people out of looking at everyone as he or she.
00:46:14
Speaker
And so I don't want to claim that identity just yet, but I do want to look for ways to move the needle in ways that do feel authentic to me with the privilege I have. So I don't know. I don't know where I am from that. We'll see.
00:46:31
Speaker
It's a tough con... I don't know. It's a very... Because, like, I think reframing, like, for me personally, it's far more the pronouns, like, aspect of that conversation, defying the binary, is just not an important... For me personally, it doesn't mean anything. It feels like I'm putting on an act often. Like, it feels very uncomfortable to me personally. And I think that's, frankly, like, why it was very easy to be like, nope, I'm... Like, just use he-him pronouns. And I will also...
00:46:59
Speaker
ensure that you are properly gendering everyone around me at all times. That is a commitment that I make. And if somebody uses multiple pronouns, if they use he-they pronouns, and I'm introducing them kind of without them present or something, talking about somebody,
00:47:17
Speaker
I will like bring up the fact that they use they-them pronouns as well. Right. And choose they. Like if somebody uses he, they, I feel like in my life, almost everyone will just use he, right? If you say I'm he or they, 99% of people will use he. So you know what? I'm going to use they for people who say it's okay. It's like that Instagram post said.
00:47:39
Speaker
Okay, if you're opening yourself up to that, let's fucking do it. Let's force people to contend with this, especially people who are not in queer circles all the time. So do this at work with all your straight people. Do this in straight groups. So I think that's good. And just to bring it a little full circle back to the bi stuff, because this is a bi podcast. Sometimes.
00:48:05
Speaker
There's overlap, there's so many bi people who are trans or non-binary, there's so many trans or non-binary people who are bi. But there's also, if you're not overlapping, there's a nice relationship there that opens space for people. I think in a relationship with a bi person, that can open space for someone exploring their gender to really explore it without constraints and to not feel like they're gonna be turning off their partner in any way.
00:48:33
Speaker
And on the flip side, I also think, let's say that you have a straight person who I know, I know some straight people starting to explore with trans or non-binary people. And even if it's just a little bit different than a cis straight person, it is opening people up to different experiences.
00:48:58
Speaker
even allows straight people to reflect, okay, like what about masculinity or femininity do I find attractive? What is necessary for me and what is not? Oh, like what might I like there to be some fluidity in, even though most of the other straight people I've dated my whole life have conformed to this. And so I think in both directions, it opens up some space in a nice way. Yeah. Well, and I think it,
00:49:26
Speaker
Like, there's a tie between this and the idea that I personally, for example,
00:49:31
Speaker
don't date straight women. I don't date straight cis women. And I do that because there's no, there's no like allowance for me to like, or presumed allowance for me to be anything other than a straight man, right? And that's where for me, like my non-binary, the non-binary aspects of my identity come out and like need to be with somebody. And that isn't to say, right, there could be a straight cis woman who
00:49:59
Speaker
is fully understanding at some point. But for simplicity's sake and for understanding my own, what I'm looking for in people and such, it's been really important to hold that boundary to some extent, which also is a huge
00:50:16
Speaker
like pain point of my own bisexuality, that it's just like I'm writing off a huge portion of the femme leaning pool of people
Dating Preferences and Labels
00:50:24
Speaker
in this world. And it's, you know, I think people will often see that and say that I am like gay leaning for that reason. Right. Which is ironic because I also don't very often date gay men. Right. I like very much. Right. And I think there's like just a lesser
00:50:44
Speaker
experience there because at least they're queer identifying, so there's a little bit more of an end to these conversations often. Interesting. I see what you mean. It's all tied. It's almost like if you're dating a straight woman who's down with you being gender fluid or gender non-conforming,
00:51:05
Speaker
that person could almost claim queerness. Like that, to me, that is what queerness is, is an openness to fluidity or nonconformity. And so like, I don't know. I mean, I guess technically you don't have to identify as queer by if you're just open to that, but want to date cis men. But like, that's the first step toward a queerness open-minded view of the world.
00:51:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And that's why by and non-binary people, there should be an alliance between those two communities in big ways. And hopefully season three can be a little bit more of an opportunity to create that here, too. Yes. OK. This is going to be a long fucking episode, but whatever. I'm done editing. No more editing this season. OK. You have a topic. What do you want to talk about, Alex? What's been on your mind?
00:52:01
Speaker
I started thinking a lot about what kinds of steps I'm taking when I'm looking at the kinds of identities that I want to date and the kinds of people I want to date, or even me. And it just got me thinking about the idea of chasing. I also rewatched Transparent, the show, which has a chasing kind of arc in it.
00:52:24
Speaker
um the brother right is like is like in a relationship with a trans person is that the thing you're talking about or what do you know one of the one of the other siblings alley was like chasing a trans person right um the point being that
00:52:38
Speaker
that there are real dynamics, especially between bi communities, frankly, or bi questioning communities, even, and this idea of chasing trans people. And I'm premier of this podcast. I said that I moved to New York to sleep with a woman.
00:52:59
Speaker
Right? That's literally, I know what, those are words that I said. And I like to stand by that as my experience in the past, unfortunately, right? Yeah. But also, the act of looking for people solely based on their identity, right, is just such a bizarre, especially in this last year of reflection where I haven't been chasing anyone. I haven't been like, you know, that's not been happening.
00:53:25
Speaker
It's been a chance to just like reflect on all of the different ways that we, you know, think about all of the people that you've had. Like, I've never dated a blank person, right? I want to try that. And that implied like initiative to like try that, right?
00:53:44
Speaker
Black people are often, especially within queer male communities, are very often framed that way. Mixed people are often, mixed race folks are often treated that way just because they look maybe ambiguous racially in ways that are super harmful to some of these communities.
00:54:05
Speaker
And on the other coin, something that I've been thinking about is the fact that buy people are also chased in some ways. And we talk a lot about the ways that were turned away. And I'm not saying it's universal, but there's also dynamics where I know that if I say I'm buy, I'm going to attract some small portion of people even more. It doesn't mean we have it easier going back to your statement earlier.
00:54:34
Speaker
No, especially it's like it's like gay men, right? Yeah. Like think think it's hot. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Well, and that's the point that it's it's oh, you're by you've been with women. Oh, that's so hot. Like, yeah. Well, and that's because something about frankly, what they're really saying is like you're sort of straight, right? Like you're the closest thing to street that
00:54:56
Speaker
And in actuality, they probably assume that you were straight identified until recently, right? And you're in your bi days and you're going to be gay soon, right? And they're catching you in your most straight time of your life or something. I don't know. Right. And I've heard this thing a lot of like bi guys, I mean, sorry, gay men who want to like suck a straight guy's dick. Like you see that on crime girl, like looking for a straight dick and like they want to turn somebody or they want to give somebody this like
00:55:22
Speaker
New experience or feel like I don't know. Maybe it makes you feel kind of like Powerful to like do that, you know be that for for a straight guy Which I don't know. I kind of get it. It's complicated like I I was I was on the receiving end of that when I first started exploring like I that was who I ended up with was probably chasers like straight straight chasers in a way, right like yeah, I want to give this experience to
00:55:52
Speaker
I don't know what that is, though, because I've never literally felt it myself. Although I do like hooking up with other bi people or meeting other bi people and stuff just because of the shared experience, but not because of like, yeah, I want to turn someone or like get something out of it for myself. Yeah, but it's just like fetishization of folks, right? Because like, in some ways, it's
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah, maybe in all of these cases, right? Like you could term it as rather than chasing just like fetishization in some sense, right? Like I know someone I've interacted with somebody recently that like identifies as straight and we just were like talking about it too. But I like identifies as straight and put straight on his profiles and everything. And
00:56:39
Speaker
very much sleeps with probably more men. From what I was hearing, more men than women in this case was also a very binary conversation, not to contradict our earlier conversation.
00:56:52
Speaker
Um, so yeah, identify to straight on like a gay dating app, a straight dating app, something like field that's more queer. What do you mean? Yeah, I think it was, I don't know which apps that he was on, but I think it was field and something else, but it field, I think it was. Um, but point being that like this, this guy like very, and like, we had like decent enough rapport that I felt like I could go there where I just like asked, like, so you identify as straight, but like.
00:57:22
Speaker
What does that mean to you if you're sleeping with men and you're pursuing men? And he kind of gave a non-answer. And I think in the non-answer, not to go into specifics of what was said, but it felt to me like it was somebody claiming a straight identity in order to become more
00:57:48
Speaker
desirable to a certain demographic. Yeah, I mean, I guess I know what that's like, because that was me for some amount of time. And we've talked about this a lot like in season one with with Dr. Jane Ward, like about
00:58:04
Speaker
You know, what it means to be having sex with men and identify as straight, you know, to combine those two things, which I think is much more common than people realize. And maybe some of these guys are like figuring stuff out and maybe we'll come to a bi identity like I did pretty quickly.
00:58:21
Speaker
But but i kind of get where that guy's coming from even though he has an answer maybe he's still figuring shit out but it's like if you identify as by on grinder you're gonna get. Different kinds of people contacting you and different kinds of requests then if you identify a straight.
00:58:39
Speaker
If you identify a straight on Grindr, you're going to get those kind of chasers who want to, it's going to be about you, whatever that experience is, because you're like the newbie or whatever, and you will get people offering
00:58:54
Speaker
a blow job or something and not as much like a real date or something mutual or something that could continue. And so I think it's like maybe that guys like that, like your friend are sort of looking for a limited experience for now, but maybe that's a window for them into something else. I don't know.
00:59:16
Speaker
And to speak to it a little bit more too, when I say it was a non-answer, the thing that really stuck out to me and I didn't say was that he had identified a straight but actively pursuing men for more than two years.
00:59:31
Speaker
Right. Like a pretty long period of time, which is not to say that somebody can't be like kind of hovering between straight and by kind of figuring it out, questioning right for that long. But it like very much didn't seem to be right. Like he was pretty comfortable with the fact that he wasn't straight in some way, too. And it was like it felt to me like it was exploitation of of like a straight identity.
00:59:59
Speaker
to get more opportunity with men, with queer men. Which maybe that's an unfair read, but that is certainly a thing that exists out there. It's a thing that I've seen in other contexts too. This is just one example that I felt especially present. But bringing it back, and I'm curious what you, I don't know if you have anything to say about
01:00:28
Speaker
this too, because I mentioned like black folks, bi folks, or mixed folks, right? And I feel like that's the thing that I'm really like hung up on where it's like been, not that it's something I've liked because I hope I've never appeared to be like chasing somebody in that way because it's just like a, like that's super, I don't know, that's like the cringiest, most harmful
01:00:53
Speaker
way to pursue someone, to disabled people often are literally treated this way by a select portion of the population too. And it's gross. I stand by that this is just the grossest thing, but also something I think that we need to question about ourselves at times sometimes, when we start figuring out types. What is our type?
01:01:19
Speaker
And I feel like that is a related conversation that it's like the step one where you think you're kind of assembling a type and then sometimes it can hedge into like a toxic territory where what you actually just said is you don't date Asian people. Yeah.
01:01:36
Speaker
You are looking specifically for a black guy and then maybe also specifically a trans guy. And it's like it like those. That's like a natural evolution of like this hyper fixation on like what your type is and what specifically you're looking for. So.
01:01:55
Speaker
I don't know. I don't have a question, but what do you think? I'll just talk.
Attraction vs. Fetishization
01:02:00
Speaker
I think it's like finding this line between attraction and fetishization or preferences versus disqualifiers.
01:02:12
Speaker
And it's OK to have attractions and pursue, but chase. Then it can veer over into chasing, which can be not cool. And I guess just in my personal experience, first of all, I don't think I've been chased as a bi person much. I think, if anything, it's been the opposite. And when I put bi on a dating app, I think my responses go down overall.
01:02:41
Speaker
maybe there's a certain segment of gay men that are more interested, but I think like, especially with women, I get less context. I kind of want to put straight back on there as a test and see if that's true. But for me personally, like, I have
01:02:58
Speaker
been with people, you know, types of people I've never been with before, you know, quote, tried new things. And like every time it's like the label of whatever that thing was, whether it's like a race or religion, the sexuality, a gender identity, like
01:03:13
Speaker
I'm like going into it like I've never been with that before and then it's like doesn't mean anything like they're a unique person and they're different they are different than anyone I've been with everyone I am with is different than anyone else I've been with and you can't put a point to one
01:03:32
Speaker
as facet of them or one label that they have because everyone has many labels and many facets to them and like and like every time it breaks the breaks any assumption I had like oh I've never been with this type of person it's probably going to be like this
01:03:49
Speaker
okay no sometimes it is sometimes it isn't it's just a unique thing and it's a unique experience like and and to me the personality or how they relate to me or their interest in me or like their authenticity or not it is what i really respond to or connect with like my type is authentic
01:04:13
Speaker
You know? Yeah. Like you can have types. Authenticity is key. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay. Right. Like you can also have types. Exactly. Yes. I agree. Yeah. But when that type- It's okay to have that. But when that type is like very, like when it becomes specific to the point of like pointing out races or, or, or right. Like different people have literal, like based on their skin color, like, yeah, it becomes toxic. And, and I think.
01:04:38
Speaker
And the no Asians thing is the biggest piece of it. To look at the opposite side of it, of identities that you're avoiding rather than chasing. That's exactly what we're talking about. And I feel like being by people. And the reason why I think it keeps coming up is because I was thinking about this episode and launching season three.
01:05:02
Speaker
And the reason it comes up is because I think that bi people and non-monosexual people in general are like often noticing that more in themselves because they're already questioning what they're looking for in the strict picture of what we are looking for in some way, right? Like at one point I was always imagining a woman and then I was always imagining a man and now it's just like this weird queer time of like
01:05:30
Speaker
loosening up that imagination of the person that I'm supposed to be with to go far beyond any identity. In my opinion, it doesn't make me more evolved or better. It just makes me much happier when I'm actually connecting with people because it affords me far better opportunity.
01:05:53
Speaker
Exactly. Right. You've done that work, and most bi people, if they come to terms with their bi identity, have done that work with gender, right? Like we've analyzed that, we've looked at it, we've determined, okay, gender is not a disqualifier. And once you've done that, I think then you start to look at all these other labels of all the things you're talking about.
01:06:15
Speaker
And even if you did have a preference or a disqualifier before, you might then go, oh, wait, is that real? Why is that disqualifying? Maybe like gender, it isn't. And I think so many people who have a disqualifier, it stems from a bad experience or something in their past that they didn't like.
01:06:38
Speaker
and like that's a generalization and a stereotype and like maybe you did have a bad experience with a certain type of person but that doesn't mean you will again with the next type of person like the next person who looks the same or or has the same gender identity or whatever like
01:06:54
Speaker
People are unique and and and and we hold on to these things, right? But but there's no real reason to like you never know who you're gonna meet and the more disqualifiers you have like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy like it's you know, oh My hard drive is almost full because this episode is going on so long. Oh my goodness. Okay
01:07:13
Speaker
Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. Well, but the point being, and the reason I feel like this can be brought up in the same conversation as the earlier conversation about non-binary gender and sexualities is just the fact that all of this comes down to breaking out of the boundaries that we have either placed on ourselves or placed on others, right? And I feel like it's about breaking out of boundaries. I feel like
01:07:47
Speaker
Okay, so let's move on a little bit at the end of this. I want to do some questions from the viewers. We've had a couple questions. We'll do like a very short answers on some of this and maybe we'll continue it in the future. Yeah, maybe new topic ideas.
01:08:06
Speaker
A lot of questions have come in. I'm not going to read them now because we will just get too deep into it. But a lot of questions coming in about by married people, coming out within a marriage, coming out within a monogamous marriage. And so, OK, we're going to save that for later. But I just want to say that's going to be a continuing topic. We will talk about that more. We will talk about coming out within this stuff. And in my oral history project, I have been interviewing people in monogamous marriages
01:08:34
Speaker
who have come out to their spouse. And it's still a very valuable and important thing to come out. Not that you have to do it, especially if it may end your marriage and you don't want that. But with people I've interviewed, it can be a very positive thing, even if you want to remain monogamous, because it's about being open and free and honest and authentic with your partner. OK, I said I wasn't going to talk about that. Then I did talk about it.
01:09:02
Speaker
But moving on, here's one for you then. This isn't a question, but I also asked for topics that people want to talk about. And one of the topics someone suggested, which you mentioned early, was biromantic aces. What are your thoughts? Can you define that for us? Does that define you? Do you have any thoughts on biromantic ace people?
01:09:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, so to be clear, you know, by romantic ace folks are folks who sexuality is probably a smaller portion of their identity in some form, right? Having sex is less of the desire in their relationship and sexual attraction and therefore is less of it. But they very much have like
01:09:47
Speaker
romantic or other attractions to people, regardless of gender, presumably, right? And like, yes, short answer. This is in a nutshell very much me. I 100 percent identify as biromantic asexual. The asexual has always been kind of like an asterisk sort of next to it. The biromantic has sort of had an asterisk next. Oof.
01:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, I don't I never want to say it again That very that very much I don't know I very much identify with biromatic asexual
01:10:31
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a hard conversation because I think the hypersexualization of bisexuality is often the first thing people think of. And we define ourselves as bi based on our sexual attraction often. And it's really tough when you realize, OK, but what about when it's just the other types of feelings, the other types of attractions that are not proven in a bedroom?
01:10:57
Speaker
Yeah, I want, I mean, it goes without saying I want a whole episode about that sometime this season. So please, because I have because I have a lot of thoughts and questions about what you just said, but we don't have time and we should do it. Well, we should do a longer discussion on this. OK, here's another one. Somebody asked about subtle by dentifiers, like what have you seen or used in the wild? Like, for instance, whenever I'm at a high level business consulting meeting, I make a point to have painted nails.
01:11:26
Speaker
ever since a coworker told me they noticed it. So, so actually, like the painted nails, I've just I mean, mine are kind of fading. I had them for pride that I had these blue nails for pride. And it was the first time I had nail polish. And I have to say I love it. I love
01:11:42
Speaker
Wearing it and looking at it like my instead of looking like nothing now my fingers look yes I use and have color like I just like looking at my fingers I like that other people notice it and so many people have commented on it 100% positive comments like so many people say oh I like your nails literally no one has ever said anything negative to me about it that's some of like my white male privilege, but but it's been all positive in New York and
01:12:09
Speaker
And I don't know, I just like that it's this queer thing I can do that pushes boundaries. And why can't boys wear nail polish? Why is that not a mask on thing? You can still pick your color. I pick fucking blue. That's the traditional boy color. That's another story. Why is that? We can get into that later. But you can pick whatever color you want. So why is the concept of color on your nails
01:12:38
Speaker
you know, not masculine. It should be. It is. I have a purple shirt. You can wear a colored shirt. That is masculine. Like, anyway, I want to smash this one. So nail polish is my thing at the moment. What about you? Yeah, no, I love talking about the fact that nail polish is something that men should be wearing. Like, men do use it more often. I feel like nowadays, in every man that I talk to,
01:13:02
Speaker
I don't know. I love wearing nail polish, everybody does. Your nails are doing literally nothing right now if they're not painted right now. Look down at your fingers, realize the lack of opportunity that you're taking advantage of, right?
01:13:14
Speaker
or the opportunity you're not taking advantage of, whatever I'm trying to say. Yeah, so that's a good one. And I feel like that's for a lot of queer-identified folks. I also think jewelry, though, is another thing. I'm talking from a mask of center place, obviously. So often my buy identifiers, or whatever we're going to call them here, are often femme features of sorts.
01:13:43
Speaker
But yeah, having like rings on that are not traditionally like thinner rings often, like I feel like are a very like queer, queer symbol of sorts. Yeah, I agree. I've been seriously considering getting my ears pierced lately because I was trying to find clippings for pride and they're very hard. Oh, you do? Is that you?
01:14:04
Speaker
Can your peers know? I have had 45 plus peers things in my life, and most of them were from the same person. So you're like, I actually know a guy. OK, maybe I'll do that. DM me. I'll tell you where to go. Is it going to hurt? No, it doesn't. It's not that bad.
01:14:17
Speaker
I'm like a child. Okay. It's like three seconds of pain. Okay. If anyone's curious, I had at maximum 30 piercings in my life, like at once and I had 15 or so others. So there's far less metal in my face than there ever was in the past. So it's a really exciting development.
01:14:37
Speaker
That's something to aspire to. I think I'm almost ready. It is not. I have to say that it is not. Okay, two piercings. I aspire to two, one in each year. Yes, maybe three. Three is a good number. Okay, back to the questions.
01:14:51
Speaker
Last question. And we could do this every episode. Any buy stuff in film, media, TV that you've seen recently that you like? People always ask about this. It's a good question. I assume that was a you question, but that could be a me question. No, somebody, I didn't actually read it. Somebody said, on the lighter side, what films or media are in your buy head canon?
01:15:15
Speaker
I like the way that they phrase the question more than the way you do. I did just watch Love, Victor, the second season, and I was excited by some evolving by conversation. I say that with the preface of the first season, in my opinion, being extremely unby, extremely desert, which was very disheartening.
01:15:39
Speaker
But I feel like season two was it was starting to and it just gave me hope that we can like trick some gay people into or like gay leaning viewers to.
01:15:50
Speaker
to maybe view something that's hedging on by. Maybe I'll continue watching. Oh, wait. I don't know if this is included books, but I'm going to say a book, because I just read the most amazing by. Some people's story books. Yeah, we should all read this book. It's a YA book, but it's incredible. I literally have it in front of me. It's The Gentleman's Guide to Vice and Virtue. It was a huge book a couple of years ago.
01:16:15
Speaker
literally the best by representation in a YA book that I've literally ever seen. So cool. All right. That sounds great. It's like historical fiction, but it's it's wonderful. Cool. Historical fiction is wonderful. I didn't mean to include the butt. Go ahead. Cool. I've been rewatching Big Mouth. I still think Big Mouth is doing like great stuff. It's not always perfect, but I really like the bi and the trans storylines they've they've had. I think they're very real and like
01:16:45
Speaker
challenging and interesting. I don't know I watched Loki which the showrunner said Loki is bi but like they I mean there's one scene so far that I've watched where it's made explicit and it's like under his breath almost it's like barely. I was like okay great I'm glad that's there better that it's there than it's not there it's of course Loki would be bisexual like that makes perfect sense but like
01:17:10
Speaker
You know, they're not going to like do storylines about it because it's Disney. So I get it. I have mixed feelings about it. Same with feel good. I just watched the pilot of that because Shiri Eisner was about to watch it. You know, Shiri Eisner got me to watch it because because like, and I agree with the analysis that Shiri posted, which is like,
01:17:34
Speaker
It's about a bi person, but they barely bring up bisexuality. It's not explicitly dealt with the way that I think it would be if a woman, it's about a woman who's only dated men and then starts hooking up with this woman who's kind of masculine presenting, maybe like a tomboy, but is a woman. When I went through stuff like that, it was a topic of conversation.
01:18:01
Speaker
It is not a topic in the pilot. It comes up that she's only dated men, but the word bye doesn't come up and other stuff. So I don't know. I'm going to keep watching about a bye person, but we'll see. Yeah, I think that is proof. This is all proof that we're starting to move forward. We are getting past the point where a bye character can be in there without being like,
01:18:23
Speaker
the bi show, the bi movie, the bi book, right? And I think that it is, like we've said it on here. So I personally love depictions of bi people that have nothing like heavy handed about them. So this sounds good to me. There was Twitter conversation about this too. It's like, OK, I agree with you. Yes, we need that. But we also don't want that in place of like really head on specific bi stories. We need both.
01:18:49
Speaker
So yes, I completely agree. It's great to have characters who are bi where the plot does not derive from their bisexuality. The more of that, the better. But we also still need to see the bi experience represented fully and to see people going through the stuff that we talk about on this podcast because that is not out there. We have not seen that yet. I mean, we've seen it a few things that we've talked about.
01:19:16
Speaker
But it's not as prevalent as bi people are in the world. There are more bi people, percentage-wise, than there are bi stories on TV. So I still think there's a ways to go. Anyway, okay, that's all we have time for. I think we gotta wrap it up. This has been a lovely long episode. We're gonna do much less editing this year, so you're gonna get a lot more great long content and long episodes. Aren't you all excited? And just like, you'll actually hear what we really are like.
01:19:46
Speaker
I feel like, yeah, some more candy. Did you enjoy us not so polished? I wonder. Let us know in the comments or don't. Yes. Well, if you liked us, let us know. If you liked it, let us know. If you hated it, be quiet. Due to the less editing, we're going to try to put out episodes much faster than last year, more than once a month, maybe once a week. We'll see. We've got some great guests lined up, some awesome people. I won't reveal them yet, but we do have some amazing guests planned.
01:20:16
Speaker
So stay tuned and enjoy the rest of the summer. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening.